TAPE LOG - DR. REVEREND CARLTON AG. EVERSLEY

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TAPE LOG - DR. REVEREND CARLTON AG. EVERSLEY

Interviewee: DR. REVEREND CARLTON A.G. EVERSLEY

Interviewer: Rob Stephens

Interview Date: March 27, 2008

Location: Dellabrook Presbyterian Church office, Winston-Salem, NC

Length: 2 CDs, approximately 90 minutes

Comments: Only text in quotation marks is verbatim; all other text is paraphrased, including the interviewer's questions.

TAPE INDEX

Counter Index Topic 0:00 Paternal grandmother from Barbados; very Christ-like person; Mrs. Dees; raised

by her for the first 5 years; did not know paternal grandfather; mother born in 1929 in Richmond, VA; maternal Grandmother, native of Virginia; moved family to Brooklyn in the 1940s; home church, Concord Baptist in 1965 when he was 8 years old; saw a vision of Jesus in his room and went and joined the church the next day.

13:47 Influence of Rev Gardner C. Taylor; Eversley is only pastor in this state that has been baptized, licensed to preach and ordained by Taylor.

20:00 Schooling, Neighborhood, projects; tough neighborhood; but good schools; was in a special program with Special Progress; went to the whiter neighborhood; says, "for me being black and educated was never a contradiction."

28:00 Discussion of brothers and family. 35:02 Father's legacy, continued description of Bed-Stuy and its role in his life growing

up 36:00 Back to the Church's role in his life 37:47 story about going to Portland for a conference where he first experienced white

people he believed in and trusted. Didn't think white people could be Christians before that.

39:40 First time getting drunk with Reverend Taylor's niece 44:20 Switch to Oberlin, connecting his major to all four jobs he has now.

discussion of all the professors that were influential 50:00 Tommie Smith was his track coach 54:00 Story of Bethel Churches in Winston-Salem and the tradition of naming splinter

churches

Interview number U-0286 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.Restriction: Citation or quotation requires prior written approval of interviewer and interviewee.

58:00 discussion of various involvement in political issues at Oberlin; student group involvement.

1:02:30 Garrett, Divinity School; introduction to Howard Thurman; disappointment in level of Black scholarship there; discussion of early marriage in Chicago

1:08 discussion of his favorite professor there, Dr. Henry Young 1:09:30 Howard Thurman 1:10:30 Model of the holy spirit of Jesus Christ is the door jam into heaven. 1:13:20 Discussion of Jesse Jackson primary in Forsyth County. My family, then

planning next meeting. 1:15:00 Coming to Winston-Salem; depression with being unemployed for first 7 months. 1:19:54 Talks about house getting broken into Winston-Salem; points outside to the house

next door to the church. 1:20:00 Talks about ending up in Winston; what makes him happy about being here. 1:22:00 discussion of ministers and power structure in Winston-Salem when he arrived in

the early 80s; the changing political dynamics within the Black community with the emergence of more radical young leaders; never was disrespectful of the elders, but overtook it; the four major black organizations in Winston-Salem: NAACP, The Urban League, Minister's Conference and Black Leadership Roundtable

1:29:00 height of fundraising for Darryl Hunt Defense 1:29:30 desire for the next generation of new pastors taking over the leadership


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TRANSCRIPT - DR. REVEREND CARLTON AG. EVERSLEY

Interviewee: CARLTON EVERSLEY

Interviewer: Rob Stephens

Interview Date: March 27-March 28, 2008

Location: Winston-Salem, NC

Length: Two Files; approximately 2 hours, 22 minutes

CE: Well I'll tell you something (that happened) before '94. What's important to

understand is '92. '92 was really a crucial year in this town. The following things in the

Spring/Summer of '92. Right on New Walkertown Road, there were four black teenagers who

stole a motor grader, a big instrument. And they killed a police lieutenant. A white police

lieutenant named Tice. And they were convicted and sentenced. In an unrelated incident, also

on New Walkertown Road, police arrested a black woman, thirty-five years old. Her name was

Sheila Epps Mckellard. They handcuffed her ankles, they handcuffed her wrists behind her

back. They stuffed her mouth with gauze. They laid her face down in the holding cell. She died

on what the coroner called, "positional asphyxiation." And her death was kept from the public

both by the Winston-Salem Police Department and the Winston-Salem Journal until the

[Winston-Salem] Chronicle1 broke that story. Not too long after that, there were four white men

who stabbed a black man to death, Carlos Colon Stoner. They cut off his penis and they stuffed

it in his mouth. This was in the Spring of 1992. Not his murder, but his castration was kept from

the public by both the Winston-Salem Police Department and the Winston-Salem Journal until

the Chronicle broke that story.

The African-American newspaper


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And so when all of that happened, then John [Mendez] started a group called Citizens

United For Justice. Which we expected to be an all-black group focused on law enforcement,

police brutality and so forth. But much to our surprise, we were at least about one-third white,

usually poor white. Who all had been abused by the Sherriff in the county and so forth. And we

met every Tuesday at Emmanuel Baptist Church, every Tuesday from seven to ten pm. And then

the three active preachers, [John] Mendez, William Fails and myself would usually go up here to

the IHOP [International House of Pancakes] and stay until midnight, sometimes one, two, I

remember one time we came home at four am. And sometimes that would just be, you know,

talking, laughing, joking and telling lies. But sometimes that was some pretty serious

organizing. And that's why John Mendez and Steve Fails are my two closest friends in ministry.

RS: Steve, William Fails?

CE: William Stephen Fails is his full name. At that time he was pastor of Hanes CME

Church. Christian Methodist Episcopal. But he had a bishop problem. If you have a bishop

problem in a black Methodist church, you have a serious problem. This cat was sending him

from Winston down to Anderson, SC every week. I thought that was just cruel. He ended up

becoming pastor of Greater United Baptist in Greensboro. He's recently had a scandal and was

put out of there. But very close, the three of us. I was the education chair of this group. And in

June of '92, the school board, which was at that time an all-white board, by what I called an

electoral anomaly, because people didn't single shot2 for the black candidates, decided they was

going to redistrict the districts and decide where children go to school and where to build new

schools. So I went to them in June of '92 on behalf of the organized black community, you

2 Single shot voting only for the Black candidate instead of voting as well for white Democrats. Only voting for Black candidates increased their chances of winning.


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know The Minister's Conference, the NAACP, the Urban League, Black Leadership Roundtable,

there was a group called the East Ward Pact. And just said, basically, please ma'am, sir wait

until December when there will be two blacks coming on the school board, Geneva Brown and

Walter Marshall, before you make decisions about where our children go to school. They voted

six to three, basically, go to hell. So in July—and for some people, this is my most prominent,

individual public moment. In July, we said to Citizens United for Justice, we cannot allow them

to meet and do this. I went by Larry's [Little] house the night before, because Larry, after Darryl

was convicted in '85, went to Law School at Wake Forest and was one of the most brilliant law

students they had. He won the Stanley Moot Court competition and he was doing private

practice. I said, 'Larry, I might be getting arrested tomorrow.' He said, "Carlton, I'll represent

you free of charge." So when the school board opened its meeting in July of '92,1 got up and

said, "This meeting is now declared null and void by the people. You will not have a meeting

(deciding) where black children go to school unless some black people say where their children

go to school." And the people in the congregation were going like, "No Justice, No Peace." So

it was some civil disobedience. I'm just filibustering; I'm quoting the Bible, the Constitution,

the Declaration. I'm just going off on them. And they go into private session and then they

come back out. And I said, "You must have misunderstood me. You're not going to have a

meeting here tonight unless some black folks say where their children will go to school in 1992.

So that meeting in fact got shut down. It couldn't continue. And the TV cameras were there and

the Sherriff was there. And they were saying, "Eversley might be getting arrested." And I said,

"I'd be happy to go to Forsyth County jail and write the Letter from the Forsyth County Jail and

say why black folks can't say where their kids will go to school in 1992." So the same rednecks

who told me, "Go to hell" in June are saying "Can we do lunch?" in July. And they say, "We'll


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put Geneva and Walter on a committee on redisricting." And first they say "We'll would give

them voice and not vote." I told them, "This is not the Union of South Africa, this is United

States of America, they will both have voice and vote." Unfortunately they both voted against

the plan which we've now had for the past fourteen years, which has systematically resegregated

this county. All of that happened in 1992. And that's when we started to getting more white

support. That's when Laura Spangler came into our process. Margaret Elliot, whose at Trinity

Presbyterian and Steve Boyd. And that was all in '92, which sets up the '94 thing, which I want

to get to that because I got to get out of here and get to class.

'94 is when--. We on the defense side [of the Darryl Hunt case] had been begging for the

DNA evidence for years, ever since the thing started. The state had lied about, there wasn't a

good sample, it had been degraded and all the rest; all that was a lie. So it finally got tested, it

came back 100 percent exclusion of Darryl's semen from Mrs. Sykes' body. We think, "This is

it!" Darryl is writing his thank you notes to the community. We're going down to the hearing.

And the judge, is Judge J. Melzer Morgan, is actually married to a white Presbyterian minister,

female minister. So we're thinking, "He's gotta feel for the, you know, right thing." And we're

just pumped up and this is the cat who comes up with the theory, "Well, maybe he raped her but

didn't ejaculate." It was just devastating. The semen in the woman's body-in '90 they had

argued, "He pulled her legs apart, he stuck it in. The sick yellow fluid came out." Then in '94,

the science said, "Not this young boy." A hundred percent, not ninety-nine point nine, a hundred

percent exclusion. And he comes up with the theory, "Maybe he raped her, but didn't ejaculate."

It was devastating. You know Larry Little called it, "Phantom Sperm." You know it was just

awful. And the TV cameras were on me because my role in this whole thing was the public

information officer. I was the one elected from the Minister's Conference who wrote the press


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releases, who called the press conferences, was the public face of the Darryl Hunt movement.

And I was crying like a baby, and Mendez was kicking me under the table, because I was saying,

"This is cracker justice." He thought I was offending people. I said, "John, stop kicking me, I

know exactly what I'm saying and why I'm saying it." I said, "Cracker justice is justice that

looks at the evidence and says [Slams the table], "Damn the evidence, hang the nigger.'" That

was '94

Now I'll fast forward this. Obviously, in December of '03, we get the DNA evidence

that not only frees Darryl, but fingers Willie Brown. And even then, the DA first says, "This is

the fourth piece of the puzzle." He's not saying we got the wrong guy, he's it's says the fourth

piece. It's Darryl, it's Sammy [Mitchell], it's [Johnny] McConnell, now it's the fourth guy.

Which was driving us crazy. If you've seen the film, that's when we ran the two conferences.

We ran a typical black conference at Emmanuel. But we also, very importantly, had a white

press conference at Wake Forest with white folks saying, "We as white people are tired of this

shit." That was important. And we had a meeting at Emmanuel Church and got the mayor,

because they had Willard Brown by himself in the prison, in the jail, and we knew they just, they

would make him say something about Darryl. So we got the mayor [Allen Joines] to get the DA

to allow attorneys to talk to Willard Brown. And so that was in--. Darryl was actually released

on Christmas Eve 2003. On February the sixth 2004, he was acquitted, exonerated. Never really

got an apology, which he should have gotten. Even the judge who acquitted him used passive

voice, "Mistakes were made," instead of saying, "Human beings did awful things to you." The

day he was released, Christmas Eve 2003, this is why [District Attorney] Tom Keith is never

going be a hero of mine. The idea was all lawyers were going to talk to Judge Cromer, sign

whatever papers, come down make a joint press statement. Keith says, "I'm gonna go to the


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bathroom. Leaves there, comes down, starts talking to the press by himself. When the other

attorneys find out, they come down, they're pissed off. Fergy's [Civil Rights lawyer James

Ferguson] just pissed off. And I say, "Fergy, ain't no way in hell this redneck is gonna be the

hero of this day. This is going to be Darryl Hunt Get Out of Jail Day." I said, "Plus he doesn't

understand the spiritual signs of the times. This is Christmas." I had just finished preaching

Luke 1:46-55. You know, what does it mean that the Magnificat, he fills the hungry with good

things, the rich are sent emptied away, he has brought down the proud and the imagination of

their hearts and scattered them. He brought down the imagination and hearts are scattered. And

so, Fergy says, "Yeah you're right Carlton. Let's go get Darryl out of jail." We tell the press,

"You can stay here talking to Keith if you want to, but we're going to get Darryl out of jail."

They went vwoom [Noise symbolizing the quick nature of the press's departure of Keith's press

conference]. You know, from CNN from all over the country, the world, that was Darryl Hunt

Get Out of Jail Day. So on February the sixth 2004, when he was actually exonerated. Later on,

I guess it was that, it might have been Lent. The moderator of the Presbyterian Church came to

Winston to give us an award, because a lot of people were Presbyterian. Larry of course, myself,

we had meetings at Lloyd. Vivian Burke, who's at Grace, her former pastor, L.V. Lassiter, had

all been a part. So we got this award.

As we're leaving, guess who's there? Judge J. Melzer Morgan, who I told you is married

to a white Presbyterian minister. They go to Highland [Presbyterian Church]. I said, "Judge

Morgan, can I talk to you privately." He said, "Yes." I said, "I got two questions for you,

number one what about the state's case was so compelling that you thought Darryl didn't deserve

a new trial. And secondly now that everyone understands Darryl has been innocent all this time,

why haven't you said anything publicly about the case?" Now Rob, I think you know me well


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enough to know that I have a pretty elephantine memory about all shit. But to my first question,

I don't know what the hell it is he said. What about the state's case was so compelling. I don't

know what he said; whatever he said was so non-sensical, that I can't make heads or tails out of

it. But to my second question, why he hadn't said anything, this is what he said; "This case has

been painful for me and people have been saying bad things about me." So now I'm thinking

he's referencing my nine year [old] comment earlier, "This is cracker justice." I said, "Judge

Morgan, I'm sorry the case has been painful for you. But ain't no way in hell that I'm going to

apologize for what I said then 'cause I believed it then and I believe it now. And it was my job

to speak for the thousands of blacks who don't get to be on television." And he said, which is a

very typical tit for tat white folks thing about race relations, "How would you feel if I said

something like that about you." I said, "Judge Morgan, is it even possible to imagine a scenario

where I would have power over somebody you cared about, not do the right thing and you call it

nigger justice?" I said, "This is exactly what white folks have been doing in Winston-Salem for

the whole twenty years. You know Larry Little, John Mendez, Khalid Griggs, Nelson Malloy,

Carlton Eversley, would not care about this situation if the situation was reversed. I said, "Judge

Morgan, you can't reverse the situation, it's impossible. You would have to have a white man

accused of rape, sodomy and murder of a black woman go through two trials, with twenty-three

out of twenty-four black jurors, four black attorneys, two black trial judges, appeal to a State

Supreme Court, six out of seven black justices, appeal to a U.S. Fourth District Federal Court

which had never had a white justice in the history of the court, appeal to a U.S. Supreme Court,

eight out of nine black justices. You can't reverse the situation, it's impossible. And then he

starts telling me some shit about he been in the Peace Corps. Something totally unresponsive to

what we were talking about. So, I gotta go, but I wanted to make sure that got on the record


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because, when we have these race conversations, there's this sort of false view, you know, that

it's tit for tat, it's "Even Steven." If a black man says he wants black power and a white man says

he wants white power, that that's the same thing. It is not. A black man says he wants black

power, he's saying he wants some legitimate control on my own destiny, on my own community

and so forth. If a white man says he wants white power, he's saying he is a fundamentally

unsuccessfully person, because white people got all the damn power. So if there's any white

man talking about I want white power, then it's someone you know is a loser. All right, I got to

go-


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