T Y N W A L D O U R T O F F I I A L R E P O R T · I would again remind you that at 11 o'clock we...

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings,

Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2016

T Y N W A L D C O U R T

O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L

Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

JUNIOR TYNWALD

HANSARD

Douglas, Monday, 18th July 2016

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:

www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may

be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.

Volume No. JT2016

http://www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

TYNWALD COURT, MONDAY, 18th JULY 2016

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Present:

The President of Tynwald (Hon. C M Christian)

In the Council: The Acting Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (Miss Francisca Gale),

Mr M Cover, Miss H Godby, Miss L Kerruish, Miss E Moran, Mr M Unsworth, Miss E Vickers

with Miss N Cowsill, Acting Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff); The Acting Chief Minister (Mr C C Thomas);

Miss S Glover (Glenfaba); Miss T Brown and Mr M Salmon (Ramsey); Mr T Stephens (Ayre); Mr A Hind (Michael); Miss E Kelly (Peel); Miss Duggan, Mr Conor Paterson and Mr M Quayle (Onchan);

Mr Gibson (Middle); Mr P Baker and Mr S Clague (Douglas North); Mr L Buckley and Mr M Draper (Douglas South);

Miss D Goddard and Mr J Morrison (Douglas East); Miss S Johnson and Mr S Thomas (Douglas West);

Miss A Bell (Castletown); Mr J Costain (Malew and Santon); Miss E Currie, Miss L Hewins and Miss B Mitchell (Rushen);

with Mr J D C King, Acting Clerk of Tynwald.

In attendance: Mr A L Cannan MHK; Mr R K Harmer MHK; Mr R W Henderson MLC;

Mr W M Malarkey; Hon. R H Quayle; Hon. J P Shimmin; Mr L I Singer; Hon. W E Teare;

Hon. J P Watterson MHK


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Business transacted

Procedural ........................................................................................................................................ 5

Questions for Oral Answer ..................................................................................................... 5

1. Age restrictions – Buying alcohol and cigarettes .................................................................. 5

2. EU referendum result– Effect on Island ................................................................................ 6

3. General Election – New and inexperienced MHKs ................................................................ 8

4. Jobseeker’s Allowance – Cut for inactive jobseekers.......................................................... 10

5. Panama Papers – Island’s future as a low tax jurisdiction .................................................. 11

6. Voting – Auto-enrolment .................................................................................................... 13

One-minute silence observed for those affected by the Nice attack ............................................ 15

6. Cash spend per student – Increasing or decreasing ........................................................... 15

8. Post-16 education – Long-term strategy............................................................................. 16

9. Sustainable energy strategy – Progress since the last General Election ............................. 18

10. Cannabis – Legal controls .................................................................................................. 20

11. Cannabis legalisation – Control and regulation ................................................................ 22

Procedural – Remaining Questions to be considered on completion of Items 2 and 3 if time allows .............................................................................................................................................. 24

Order of the Day .................................................................................................................. 25

2. Abortion Laws – Government review requested – Motion carried .................................... 25

3. Unemployment Benefit – Reduction in rate – Branches in disagreement – Notice of Intention to move motion at the next sitting of Junior Tynwald ............................................ 28

Address by Mr Jordan Linden, Scottish Youth Parliament ............................................................. 35

Thanks to Members ........................................................................................................................ 37

Questions for Written Answer .............................................................................................. 37

12. Young persons’ mental health – Long-term strategy ........................................................ 37

13. Students’ health and well-being – Government strategy ................................................. 38

14. Offenders – Prison or non-custodial sentences ................................................................ 39

15. Government reserves – Availability of funds .................................................................... 39

The Court adjourned at 12.08 p.m. ................................................................................................ 40


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PAGE LEFT DELIBERATELY BLANK


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Junior Tynwald

The Court met at 10.30 a.m.

[MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair]

The Acting Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald. The President: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members. Members: Moghrey mie, Madam President. 5

The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayer.

PRAYERS The Acting Lord Bishop

Procedural The President: Please be seated. Hon. Members, I am delighted to welcome you all here today for this special sitting of 10

Tynwald Court. I would just advise you that we are making a Hansard record of the proceedings so that you

will be able to obtain a transcript of what you have said in due course. We have set up the e-voting system in your names, so if we come to an electronic vote we

will know how you are recording your votes today. 15

I would again remind you that at 11 o'clock we will be observing a one-minute silence. Can I invite you all to switch your phones off at this point if you have not already done so.

Questions for Oral Answer

CHIEF MINISTER

1. Age restrictions – Buying alcohol and cigarettes

The Hon. Member for Castletown (Miss Alice Bell) to ask the Chief Minister:

Why young people are considered old enough to vote and drive at 16, but not old enough to buy alcohol or cigarettes?


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The President: We turn now to our Question Paper. I call on the Hon. Member for Castletown, Miss Alice Bell. 20

Miss Bell: Why young people are considered old enough to vote and drive at 16, but not old

enough to buy cigarettes or alcohol? The President: The Chief Minister to reply. 25

The Acting Chief Minister (Mr C Thomas): Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, voting and responsible driving have positive benefits for young people and

do not cause the significant health problems that alcohol and cigarettes can cause. In the Isle of Man the legal age to buy cigarettes or alcohol is 18 years. Cigarettes and alcohol 30

are considered age-restricted goods and must not be sold to people under certain ages for reasons due to safety and health, particularly to protect young people. The law is one measure in a range of initiatives to deter young people from using these products and to prevent ill-health.

The ease of obtaining cigarettes and alcohol has been shown to contribute to the initiation of 35

smoking and drinking. The younger the age of starting to smoke, the greater the harm is likely to be because early uptake is associated with subsequent heavier smoking, higher levels of dependency, a lower chance of quitting and higher mortality. The earlier children become regular smokers and persist in the habit as adults the greater the risk of developing lung cancer or heart disease. 40

Madam President, in England and Wales the legal age for the purchase of tobacco was raised from 16 to 18 on 1st October 2007. Increasing the age of purchase to 18 was designed to make it more difficult for teenagers to obtain cigarettes since, despite the law, young people still succeeded in buying tobacco from shops and vending machines.

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The President: Do you wish to ask a supplementary question? Does anyone wish to ask a supplementary question?

2. EU referendum result– Effect on Island

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mr Lawrence Buckley) to ask the Chief Minister:

How the Island is affected by the result of the EU referendum? The President: In that case, we will move on to Question 2 and I call on the Member for

Douglas South, Mr Lawrence Buckley, to ask his Question of the Chief Minister. 50

Mr Buckley: How will the Island be affected by the result of the EU referendum? The President: The Chief Minister to reply. The Acting Chief Minister (Mr C Thomas): Thank you, Madam President. Let us see if I have 55

such an easy ride on this Question! Madam President, I welcome the Hon. Member’s Question. This is one of the most important

questions our community and its political representatives will have to deal with this decade. One lesson we need to learn from the EU referendum result and fallout across is that a government


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needs to take people with it. People need to be involved when options are being considered and 60

decisions made. As the hon. questioner will know, the Isle of Man is not leaving the EU as it is not and never

has been a member of the EU in its own right and is not included within the UK's membership of the EU. However, under a Protocol which is attached to the UK's Treaty of Accession to the EU, agricultural products and manufactured goods trade freely between the Isle of Man and the EU 65

and, subject to some constraints in the Protocol, there is relatively free movement of people between the Isle of Man and the EU. This Protocol would fall when the UK leaves the EU.

Madam President, the Isle of Man will liaise with the UK as it develops its own position on its new relationship with the EU and also how it deals with the process of leaving the EU. We will continue to work to ensure that the UK understands our priorities and that the Island's interests 70

are protected. We will continue to assess the potential impact of Brexit and engage with partners in the devolved administrations and the Crown Dependencies.

Most importantly, this administration welcomes public participation in coming months to make sure we understand all the interests in our community in this matter and to make sure that these are considered as we find facts, build alliances and negotiate to secure what is in the 75

best interests of our nation. Thank you, Madam President. The President: Do you have a supplementary question, sir? 80

Mr Buckley: Will there be a surge of immigration into the Island in the coming years before Brexit is completed? What will this do to our wages and our strained welfare system?

The President: Chief Minister to reply. 85

The Acting Chief Minister: Thank you, Madam President. At the minute, the Chief Economist in this administration is trying to understand those very

points and questions, because they are not simple questions. We have a tight labour market with very little unemployment. What will the impact be of a shortage of labour if it is the case that we cannot get immigrants in the future to fill the jobs that are vacant by all intents and 90

purposes? Excellent points raised by the questioner, and these are the very questions that we need our

civil servants and the general public to help us understand, to provide the right answers for future generations.

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The President: Supplementary question, Miss Brown, Ramsey. Miss Brown: What guarantee does the Government have that our interests will be

represented by the UK negotiators? 100

The President: Chief Minister. The Acting Chief Minister: Thank you, Madam President. For decades the UK has represented the interests of the Isle of Man in negotiations. In the

1960s and 1970s, when the UK entered the European Community, the Isle of Man’s interests 105

were considered and Protocol 3 was negotiated. The hon. questioner makes a very good point: that we can have no guarantee, but I have no

reason to believe that the UK will not actually try to understand our interests, once they are clearly expressed, and negotiate for them.

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The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Stephens.


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Mr Stephens: Will the Chief Minister understand that, in terms of EU citizens already present in the Isle of Man, shall they be allowed to stay?

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The President: Chief Minister. The Acting Chief Minister: Thank you very much, Madam President, and to the questioner

for that important question. People matter in all of this. It is not just about goods; it is not just about companies; it is 120

about people's interests, and we have citizens like those described by the hon. questioner. We also have constraints on the access of our people – ‘Manxmen’ as they are defined in Article 3 – in other countries, and it is very important that we take into account all those issues.

I wrote to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom with the Chief Ministers of the other islands, and we did actually make sure that point was at the forefront of the United Kingdom's 125

mind when they go about negotiating their own position and consequently where we will be and where we will have to decide our own interests.

3. General Election – New and inexperienced MHKs

The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Sasha Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:

How the Government will cope with the likelihood of so many new and inexperienced MHKs after the next election? The President: If there are no further supplementaries, we will move on to Question 3. I call

on the Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Sasha Thomas, to ask a question of the Chief Minister. 130

Mr S Thomas: How will the Government cope with the likelihood of so many new and

inexperienced MHKs after the next election? The President: The Chief Minister. 135

The Acting Chief Minister (Mr C Thomas): Thank you, Madam President. It is, of course, the will of the people to determine who will and will not be elected in the

General Election in September. It would be wrong for me, as Chief Minister, to speculate on the future. The Government has coped before and it will cope again should there be a large number 140

of new Members of the House of Keys. The President: Supplementary question, sir? Mr S Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. 145

After one election in the 1980s, there were only a few MHKs who had more than five years of Keys’ experience. Does the Chief Minister agree that the 30 years of economic growth since means that the Isle of Man is better with a fresh Government?

The President: The Chief Minister. 150

The Acting Chief Minister: Thank you very much, Madam President, and for that perceptive

question by the questioner.


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It could well be that experience outside the Keys and this Hon. Court is very valuable. I think the questioner is right that in the middle 1980s we ended up with only two MHKs who had been 155

in post for more than five years, and that led to 30 years of economic growth and social improvement, led by some of the current people who are at the end of their careers now rather than at the beginning of them.

The President: Do you have a supplementary, sir? 160

Mr S Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Does the Chief Minister agree it will not really matter as civil servants prepare policy in any

case? (Laughter) 165

The President: Chief Minister. The Acting Chief Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I think this hon. questioner watches too much television, particularly Yes Minister. Obviously, public servants and civil servants are very helpful to politicians: briefing them fully 170

about options, costing those options, weighing up alternatives, helping politicians understand the risks of any particular public policy choices. But, it does matter: politicians are those people who actually have to act as public representatives and make decisions in the interest of the general public; civil servants are there to serve neutrally, making sure that politicians are aware of all the dimensions of their choices. 175

The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Draper. Mr Draper: Thank you, Madam President. Can the Hon. Member advise Tynwald if there is a possibility of using the American system 180

for MHKs, whereby MHKs were elected at regular intervals rather than electing them all in one go?

The President: Chief Minister. 185

The Acting Chief Minister: Thank you, Madam President, and for that excellent question as well.

I guess to some extent Tynwald Court has that characteristic because the MLCs are actually elected at a different time and they are elected in two halves, so some continuity is provided by the Hon. Court having Members of the Legislative Council in post, but I think the normal 190

Westminster way is for a mandate to be secured by a particular group of politicians for a term subsequent to the election when that mandate was secured. My preference would always be to have the Westminster-type system as a basis of a Parliament in the British Isles and Commonwealth.

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The President: Supplementary question, Mr Speaker. The Speaker: Thank you, Madam President. Can I ask the Chief Minister that in the event that there are a large number of new and thus

inexperienced Members of the House of Keys whether he will be inclined to look at the vast 200

experience on the bench of Legislative Council for possible candidates for Minister, given that they will have, in many cases, the necessary experience?

The President: The Chief Minister to reply. 205


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The Acting Chief Minister: Thank you very much, Madam President, and to Mr Speaker for that helpful question.

Policy matters, but obviously the person putting into place that policy also matters and the capability and the approach of the Members matter.

After the election, the most important thing will be the mandate that has been secured by 210

the elected Members. But, as Lord Lisvane concluded in his recent Inquiry, it might well be that in odd cases the Legislative Council Members can be used to enrich the Council of Ministers after this coming election – although without being able to participate in the votes on financial matters, as Lord Lisvane also observed.

TREASURY

4. Jobseeker’s Allowance – Cut for inactive jobseekers

The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Peter Baker) to ask the Treasury Minister:

Whether Jobseeker’s Allowance should be cut month by month for those who are not actively seeking work in an attempt to incentivise the unemployed and cut the benefits’ budget? The President: We will move on to Question 4, Hon. Members. I call on the Hon. Member for 215

Douglas North, Mr Baker, to ask his Question. Mr Baker: Should Jobseeker’s Allowance be cut month by month for those who are not

actively seeking work in an attempt to incentivise the unemployed and cut the benefits’ budget? 220

The President: The Treasury Minister, Mr Teare, to reply. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. Usually a jobseeker has to take at least three steps in each week which give them the best

prospects of securing employment to demonstrate that they are actively seeking work. Such 225

steps may include visiting the Job Centre, applying for suitable vacancies, updating their CV or applying for a training course.

What is reasonable for a person to do will depend on their qualifications, experience and how long they have been unemployed. Exactly what is expected of a particular claimant is set out in a document called a Jobseeker’s Agreement. Claimants who do not take sufficient steps in 230

any week to be regarded as actively seeking work are not usually entitled to any JSA, Jobseeker’s Allowance, for that week.

So it could not be the case, as the Hon. Member for Douglas North suggests, that their benefit is reduced month by month if they do not actually seek work, as there would be nothing to cut. 235

Madam President, Hon. Members may wish to note that Treasury has recently taken steps to encourage the longer-term unemployed to secure employment as quickly as possible and to ensure that people are better off in work than on benefits. Since November 2015, once a person has been claiming Jobseeker's Allowance for more than six months, their income-based personal allowance starts to be reduced. 240

Thank you, Madam President. The President: Do you have a supplementary question, sir? The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Draper.

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Mr Draper: Thank you, Madam President. Would there be a baseline figure below which we would not cut it any further? The President: Minister. 250

The Minister: That is a very good question. I think part of the problem is it is not only the jobseeker, it is their dependants. I did say in my

original answer that the income-related part of Jobseeker’s Allowance can be tapered off. It can be cut or, to use our technical expression, it can be sanctioned, but it may be a household where there are young people involved and we have to try and protect their interests as well. 255

The steps that we have taken to increase the minimum wage and also to reduce the rate of Jobseeker’s Allowance has meant that those people who are now in work, who are working a standard week, on average, are over £36 better off. So the incentive is there to get back into work and certainly from a health-related point of view it is much better for people to be employed rather than unemployed. 260

5. Panama Papers – Island’s future as a low tax jurisdiction

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Miss L Hewins) to ask the Treasury Minister:

In light of the Panama Papers, whether the Isle of Man has a future as a low-tax jurisdiction? The President: We will move on to Question 5, Hon. Members. I call on the Member for

Rushen, Miss Hewins. Miss Hewins: In light of the Panama Papers, do you think the Isle of Man has a future as a

low tax jurisdiction? 265

The President: The Treasury Minister to reply. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Departing from my brief, Madam President, the

short answer is yes, but the publication of the Panama Papers placed a spotlight once again on 270

tax transparency, which invariably leads to increased hostility toward smaller jurisdictions such as the Isle of Man.

The Isle of Man has consistently demonstrated that it is a compliant and transparent jurisdiction with competitive low tax rates. This is in sharp contrast to the secrecy of Panama which, incidentally, impose significantly higher rates of tax. 275

When attending the Anti-Corruption Summit held in London on 12th May, the Chief Minister took the opportunity to highlight the proactive steps continually being taken by the Island to meet international standards on transparency and exchange of information for tax purposes, which attracted the praise of the Prime Minister, David Cameron.

The Island is ranked as one of only 22 jurisdictions out of 94 to achieve the highest rating of 280

compliance with the standards set by the OECD Global Forum. In 2013, the Island was the first Crown Dependency to sign an agreement with the UK

extending automatic disclosure of tax information, closely followed by a similar agreement with the United States.

In 2014, the Island was amongst the first countries to move to the Common Reporting 285

Standard, a global standard for tax information exchange, now with 101 committed signatories.


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In April 2016, the Island became the first Crown Dependency to commit to automatic exchange of company beneficial ownership information with tax authorities and law enforcement agencies.

I have no doubt that as pressures grow on Government revenues globally the Island will face 290

further scrutiny. However, I feel that, provided we remain at the forefront of international tax transparency initiatives, there is no reason why we cannot continue to offer an attractive tax rate.

Thank you, Madam President. 295

The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Stephens. Mr Stephens: With several Manx-based companies and companies with Manx branches listed

in the Panama Papers, whilst central Government may be focused on tax transparency, is business focused on it? 300

The President: Treasury Minister. The Minister: Yes I think they are, because I was very pleasantly surprised when the issue of

automatic exchange of tax information was raised in 2012 as a result of the United States 305

bringing in the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA). We took informal soundings with the business community and the reaction that came back from the business community was very positive. It can basically be summed up by a brief description: ‘Well why wouldn’t we?’ Because over the last 25/30 years the Island's financial sector has evolved: we have got very high standards of compliance, due diligence, and in fact the Island and its businesses know the 310

customers that they are dealing with. I take comfort from that and I do take great comfort too from the way that our business community reacted to the changes in our tax transparency legislation that we brought in, especially over the last five years.

The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Unsworth. 315

Mr Unsworth: Thank you, Madam President. I wish to ask the Treasury Minister whether the Isle of Man, in the eye of the global

population, is viewed as he has described? That is to say, does the Treasury Minister believe it is necessary to continue raising awareness of the Island’s considerable level of tax transparency 320

and fighting perhaps outdated rumours? The President: Treasury Minister. The Minister: That is a very good point. 325

We certainly cannot rest on our laurels, Madam President, but there are international criteria against which we are judged and one of those is the Tax Justice Network Secrecy Index. Interestingly enough, this was launched in November 2015 and the key rankings were: the USA was third; Panama was 13th; the UK, 15th; Jersey, 16th; Guernsey, 17th and the Isle of Man 32nd, but this Government has an active off-Island lobbying policy which is primarily led by the 330

Chief Minister. I have an involvement with it as well, as do other Ministers, but we constantly get the message out and I think now we are getting to the point where we are developing traction and that message is now being well received.

The President: Do we have any further supplementaries? 335


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POLICY AND REFORM

6. Voting – Auto-enrolment

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Maian Salmon) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

What plans there are to introduce auto enrolment for young people who reach the voting age? The President: In that case we will move on to Question 6 and I call on the Hon. Member for

Ramsey, Mr Salmon. Mr Salmon: What plans are there to introduce auto enrolment for young people who reach 340

the voting age? The President: The Minister for Policy and Reform to reply. The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. 345

Firstly, Madam President, after 20 years in Tynwald Court, can I say what a privilege it is to see so many female representatives for the first time in my period (A Member: Hear, hear.) and I hope that the election in September reflects a little bit more of a balance as we move forward.

Moving on to the answer, the Isle of Man electoral registration is currently based on a household system of registration which is dependent upon information provided by the head of 350

each household. The eligibility criteria for electors covers age – that is 16 years – and residence – 12 months.

There are no provisions currently available that create a legal gateway for the exchange of data held by other Departments which would identify when a person becomes 16 or which confirms their residential status, so it is currently not possible for young people to be auto-355

enrolled. However, it has been recognised that the legislation governing electoral registration is outdated, in particular with regard to household rather than individual registration, and does not take into account new technology and data held by Government.

To that end, a root and branch review of election legislation is underway which will consider all matters relevant to electoral registration, and it is intended that new legislation following 360

public consultation will be in place in time for the 2021 General Election. Madam President, I would encourage all young people aged 16 and above, eligible to vote, to

ensure their head of household includes them on the electoral registration form. If this is not the case then a registration form can be obtained via the Government website and the deadline for registration is 1st September in order to vote in the General Election this year on 22nd. 365

The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member Mr Draper. Mr Draper: Thank you, Madam President. Considering the Government has already taken money from the reserves, how would the 370

auto-enrolment system be financed? The President: The Minister. Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Madam President. 375

It is not expected that this new innovation would be a financial burden, but indeed it would be a far greater move towards democratic entitlement and therefore, even if there was a marginal increase in the costs, it should not be one that would be detrimental.


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Also, when one considers the move towards technology innovation, quite often there is an initial capital outlay but then after that things become cheaper. Therefore, we would try and 380

move into that future generation. The President: Do you have a supplementary, sir? The Hon. Member, Mr Speaker. 385

The Speaker: Madam President, can I ask the Minister whether he is aware, in fact, if secondary schools have in place plans for election hustings in relation to the coming General Election?

If he is not aware, whether he will raise this matter with his Council of Ministers’ colleague, the Minister for Education, to encourage this participation by young people in the run-up to the 390

General Election? The President: The Minister to reply. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 395

As the Court will be aware, it was Mr Speaker whose initiative it was to introduce voting at the age of 16 before the last General Election and, indeed, the schools of the Isle of Man did take that on board and arranged a number of opportunities for candidates and students to mingle and learn about the opportunities. Therefore, I will work with my ministerial colleague to try and make sure that all young people, both eligible in this election and in future elections, do 400

understand a greater deal about the Isle of Man's electoral process, but also about the importance of politics.

I think the endeavours of schools should be commended for the efforts they put in, not just today but throughout their time to actually help people get a reason for voting and a choice and understanding of what the Government does for them, but also costs them and their families. 405

I take on board the Speaker’s comments. A Member: Hear, hear. The President: Supplementary question, Mr Unsworth, Legislative Council. 410

Mr Unsworth: Thank you, Madam President. I wonder if the Minister for Policy and Reform believes that the responsibility to encourage

young people on the Island to fully take advantage of our younger voting age at 16 lies within the schools themselves, within teaching staff, or whether it lies within the heart of Government 415

and representatives sent out to the schools specifically? The President: The Minister to reply. The Minister: Yes, Madam President, there is always a balance in this area because I know 420

that yourself and others do attend schools in trying to promote the work of Tynwald Court. If the Government or individual Members go and attend schools, at times that can be seen as being electioneering, particularly in the 12 months prior to the election.

As a former secondary school teacher, it is something which I believe can and should be enhanced and it is the right of the schools to maintain their timetable and their syllabus, but I 425

would like to make sure that Government makes the offer available for those schools who choose to take the opportunity.


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One-minute silence observed for those affected by the Nice attack

The President: Now, Hon. Members, it is time for us to recognise the one-minute silence. I would invite you to stand, please.

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Members stood in silence.

6. Cash spend per student – Increasing or decreasing

The Hon. Member for Council, Miss Harriet Godby, to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

What the spend per student is in cash terms, and whether this is increasing or declining? The President: Thank you, Hon. Members. Do we have any further supplementary questions on that particular issue? If not, I will now

call on the Hon. Member of Council, Miss Godby, to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform her Question. 435

Miss Godby: What is the spend per student in cash terms, and is this increasing or declining? The President: Minister to reply. 440

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. This year the Department of Education and Children (DEC) will spend £28.8 million on

primary education and £34.3 million on secondary education. This includes the direct spending by schools, Special Educational Needs, Education Improvement and an apportionment of central costs. In addition, catering, caretaking, cleaning and IT services are provided to schools by other 445

Government Departments at a cost of approximately £5.7 million. In 2016-17, DEC will spend approximately £4,500 per primary school pupil and £6,500 per

secondary school pupil. These figures have risen from £4,300 and £6,000 in the year 2014-15. Fluctuations in pupil numbers and the financial impact of moving from GCSE to IGCSE has resulted in proportionately higher costs in secondary schools during the current year. 450

I would advise the Court that approximately 85% of school spend is salary costs for teachers and support staff. There has been a significant pay restraint in recent years; therefore, the increases since 2014 have largely been as a result of pay awards.

As with all Government departments, DEC has been required to achieve cost savings over recent years, but they do hope to continue to protect frontline services as the years progress. 455

The President: Do you have a supplementary question? Miss Godby: Do you have any plans for an increase in university fees for better universities? 460

The President: Minister. The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I think that the level of university fees has caused a great deal of angst amongst not just

parents and students but also politicians. It is something which the financial situation of the 465

Island forced upon Government and it has been regretted by many of us for a long time. However, in a realistic world, they do appear to be here to stay, and if students wish the


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opportunity of getting to the better universities which are more expensive, that is a matter that the Isle of Man must take into account to allow our students the best opportunities in life. Therefore, it will be something that will be looked at constantly by Education. They will be 470

bringing back to Tynwald the university fees in the future and therefore I would encourage Members to make representation to the Minister of Education in order to get their views across well in advance of any potential increases or changes to the university tuition fees.

The President: Do we have any other supplementaries? 475

EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

8. Post-16 education – Long-term strategy

The Hon. Member for Glenfaba (Miss Sarah Glover) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:

What the Government’s long-term strategy is for post-16 education? The President: We move then to Question 8. I call on the Hon. Member for Glenfaba, Miss

Glover. Miss Glover: Thank you, Madam President. 480

What is the Government’s long-term strategy for post-16 education? The President: The Minister for Education and Children – today Mr Malarkey – to reply. The Acting Minister for Education and Children (Mr Malarkey): Thank you, Madam 485

President, and I thank the Member for Glenfaba for an interesting Question. Post-16 education on the Isle of Man is vitally important to both our young people, our

infrastructure and our future. The strategy for Education is to offer a wide range of learning opportunities at levels one, two and three to students between the age of 16 and 18.

Beyond 18, the Government supports young people wishing to advance through higher 490

education and is expanding on-Island higher education through the University College Isle of Man.

Moving forward, we will develop the current post-16 education system so that it ensures a quality, taught curriculum across the Island and seeks to maintain post-16 learning in all our Island secondary schools. 495

The President: Do you have a supplementary question? The Hon. Member first. Miss Glover: During the previous Junior Tynwald meeting the suggestion of an Island-wide

sixth-form college emerged. What further action has been taken for this scheme? 500

The President: Minister. The Acting Minister: Thank you, Madam President. As I said in my original answer, we now have, as from 1st September, University College Isle 505

of Man. I believe these are very exciting times for the Island. Those students not wishing to leave the Island to further university careers can now start to do this on the Island. As we develop,


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17 JT2016

with more and more courses coming online each year, more and more students will be able to stay at home, study, and maybe just do their final year off-Island at university.

The collaboration between all our secondary schools and the College has now come to 510

fruition and, as from September onwards, hopefully our education for 16-year-olds onwards on the Island will flourish.

The President: The Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Stephens. 515

Mr Stephens: With such focus on reforms for GCSEs – switching from an English system to an International GCSE system – why has there been no such change in regard to A-levels?

The President: Minister. 520

The Acting Minister: Thank you, Madam President. It is felt that the A-level system at the moment – which is under review – is quite suitable. The big debate that we had about six or seven years ago over GCSEs: we went out and asked

the parents what they thought and it was quite clear, after a very large consultation and a lot of response at that time, that the International GCSEs were the way forward. 525

In the future, should we be changing the A-level system, we would also, I would imagine, go out to consultation.

The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. 530

Mr S Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. Will the Minister confirm that 85% of Manx graduates who study across do not return? Does

the Minister think that this is healthy and, if not, what will he do about it? The President: Minister. 535

The Acting Minister: Thank you, Madam President. A very interesting and truthful question, because that is a concern not just for Education but

for the Island as it tries to go forward. Once again, I revert back to the fact that these are exciting times with the University College 540

Isle of Man. The prospect, moving forward, and the Department’s wishes, moving forward, that maybe long-term we will not be just a University College; we could actually be a standalone university, which would encourage more and more of our up-and-coming students to stay on-Island after they have studied on-Island.

The Department is doing everything it can to encourage more and more students to go into 545

higher education. It is much cheaper to do that on-Island. From an education point of view and the Department’s point of view, there are great savings to be made: rather than paying UK university fees, we can do this on-Island and keep the money on-Island; keep the students on-Island; keep the income from the students’ spending in the shops on-Island. So all round, we are determined, moving forward, that University Isle of Man is the way forward. 550

The President: Do you have a further supplementary, Mr Thomas? The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Baker. Mr Baker: Does the Minister have any plans to introduce a sixth-form college on the Island? 555

The President: Minister. The Acting Minister: Thank you, Madam President.


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18 JT2016

No, a sixth-form college is not on the agenda at the moment, but that will be up to the new 560

Minister who will probably take over after the coming election.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

9. Sustainable energy strategy – Progress since the last General Election

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Miss Emily Currie) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

What progress the Government has made to implement a sustainable energy strategy since the last General Election? The President: If there are no further questions, we will turn now to Question 9. I call on the

Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Currie. 565

Miss Currie: What progress has the Government made in implementing a sustainable energy strategy since the last General Election?

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Singer, to reply for the Minister for Agriculture. 570

The Acting Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Singer): Thank you, Madam President, and can I thank Miss Currie for her Question.

The responsibility for developing a sustainable energy policy lies primarily with the Department of Economic Development. However, the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture has made considerable contributions to a number of energy initiatives over the past 575

five years. Department officers have worked closely with developers wishing to construct an offshore

wind farm off the east coast of the Isle of Man and have taken a leading role in ensuring the delivery of a robust environmental impact assessment for the proposed project. This work involves ensuring that appropriate, internationally recognised standards for protecting the 580

marine environment during exploratory and survey operations are adopted by the developers. We are also working with developers who wish to construct tidal generating arrays in a

number of locations around the Island, again to ensure that the environmental impact of exploration, survey and construction activities are properly managed.

The Department has also taken a lead in promoting the use of biomass as a source of energy 585

for heating buildings. This commitment to a sustainable local source of energy was reinforced in January 2015 when the Council of Ministers reviewed the existing biomass policy and indicated its continuing support of woodchip biomass initiatives.

On a closely related topic, the Department has developed a Climate Challenge Mitigation Strategy for the Isle of Man. The core objective of this Strategy is to reduce greenhouse gas 590

emissions from electricity generated on Island to 80% of the 1990 figure by 2050. This target will inevitably lead to the development of a generation strategy based on renewable resources. This Strategy is due to be discussed at tomorrow's sitting of Tynwald.

Thank you, Madam President. 595

The President: Supplementary question, Miss Currie.


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19 JT2016

Miss Currie: Would you consider the conversion of public transport such as buses to more efficient modes such as powering by biofuel?

600

The President: The Minister to reply. The Acting Minister: One of the policies that we are looking at – and that is in for discussion

tomorrow – is for 2016-20 and part of the action plan is quite specific in that it proposes changing, for example, building control standards; reducing omissions from surface transport; 605

and, as you say, renewable energy from biomass, but also from wind, from solar, from rainfall, from tidal currents. It is important that we actually – I hope – support this tomorrow. It is a long journey up to 2050, but we have to start it somewhere and so we might as well start it now.

The President: Supplementary, the Hon. Member for Council, Mr Unsworth. 610

Mr Unsworth: Thank you, Madam President. The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture mentioned wind, solar and tidal forms of

energy generation and I wish to ask him which he feels may be the most sustainable in the long-term or which he has a preference for over the others? 615

The President: Minister to reply. The Acting Minister: I do not think it is really what is my preference; I think it is what we find

is the most efficient, and in all of this we have to realise that there are a great amount of costs. 620

With wind energy, the setting up is very costly and also, comparatively, the cost of the electricity from a wind farm is expensive. Tidal energy is at its very beginning, so again it is going to be very expensive to start off with.

I think we have to look at all of those that you have mentioned and see how they proceed in the future, over the next few years, and only then will we know what the true costs are and 625

which is going to be the most efficient. The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Miss Johnson. Miss Johnson: Does the Government currently have any schemes to increase education 630

about sustainable energy? The Acting Minister: Sorry, can you repeat that? The President: Can I ask you all to speak loudly please, so that we can all hear the questions. 635

Miss Johnson: Does the Government currently have any schemes to increase education

about sustainable energy? The Acting Minister: I do not think that is a responsibility particularly of this Department, but 640

I would hope that is part of the teaching that is going to be in the primary schools and secondary schools, because if I go back to this proposal I talked about, that we are going to discuss tomorrow on this Mitigation Strategy, that is looking at it until 2050. I am sure many things will happen that are going to interfere with the proposals, but hopefully the young people have got to be educated in order to bring this policy forwards. 645

You, of course, will all be here to judge in 2050; unless there is a miracle, I will not. (Laughter) The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Currie.


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20 JT2016

Miss Currie: With concern to Mr Unsworth’s question, would the Minister not agree that the 650

long-term economic and environmental benefits of sustainable energy outweigh the current economic costs?

The President: Minister to reply. 655

The Acting Minister: I think in the situation that we are, we have to be well aware of costs and who pays for the costs. It is the public that pay for the costs. Can we afford it? But, I believe that if we continue to encourage investigation into all these other forms of sustainable energy then, yes, of course, the price will be reduced, hopefully, and Government has to support this because we cannot continue as we are at the moment. 660

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

10. Cannabis – Legal controls

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Conor Paterson) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

Whether cannabis should still be subject to legal controls when alcohol is available with few restrictions? The President: We move now to Question 10. I call on the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr

Paterson. Mr Paterson: Thank you, Madam President. Should cannabis still be subject to legal controls when alcohol is available with few 665

restrictions? The President: The Minister for Health and Social Care to reply. The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Madam President. 670

Cannabis is illegal in the Isle of Man under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1976. Alcohol is covered by a legal framework which includes regulations relating to the strength and quality control of products; licensing of premises where alcohol is offered for sale; age restrictions on purchase; drink-drive legislation and so on.

The harms associated with alcohol are well known and include impacts on communities, anti-675

social or aggressive behaviour, harms to individuals and families, impact on mental or physical health, domestic abuse and harm to children resulting from parental drinking. These effects of alcohol are a burden on society and a significant cost to Health and other public services.

We have, however, less evidence about the effects of cannabis, largely because it is not widely used and, as it is illegal, some of the harms may not be documented. However, cannabis 680

is associated with short-term health effects: confusion, anxiety, paranoia, panic attacks and hallucinations, and longer-term impacts on mental health, concentration and motivation. If you smoke cannabis mixed with tobacco, you are at risk of the same health problems that effect smokers, such as cancer and heart disease. It is therefore not harm free.

Uruguay and the states of Colorado and Washington have recently legalised the production 685

and supply of cannabis under state supervision, and possession for recreational use is legal with some restrictions. Evaluation of the impact of the legislation in Colorado has shown an increase


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21 JT2016

in drug-related driving offences and an increase in hospital admissions relating to cannabis use. Legalisation is not harm free.

The decision, however, Madam President, on whether cannabis should continue to be illegal 690

is a political one which should be based on the evidence of harm and the balance of risks and benefits from legalisation.

The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Stephens. 695

Mr Stephens: The Minister mentions that alcohol is licensed and subject to regulations. Would it not be better for cannabis to undergo such regulation as opposed to being left as a black market good?


The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. It is a valid point. I think we have to keep our minds open to this. I think the work that is

being done, as I said, in Uruguay and the two states in America will show, when the results are out of this trial period, whether or not it has been beneficial. 705

However, as the Health and Social Care Minister, I have toured our mental health facility at the back of Noble’s Hospital and have seen young men there who have lost an awful lot of the use of their brain through damage through using cannabis, so I think we have to concede that whilst alcohol that is legalised has been controlled and cannabis has not.

I also think it is worth pointing out that actually in surveys done on people who have used 710

cannabis in the last number of years, I am led to believe that it has fallen from 25.8% in 1996 to 6.7% for adults aged 16-19 in the last year. Obviously a higher percentage of our younger people in the 16-24 year-old bracket – I think 16.3% have said that they have used it in the last year – but there is over a 10% reduction in the number of people using cannabis. It is not as popular as it used to be. 715

I think let’s wait and see what the trials in America and Uruguay come up with. The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas East, Miss Goddard. Miss Goddard: Thank you, Madam President. 720

Does the Minister believe that stronger restrictions should be implemented regarding the sale and purchase of alcohol?


The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. On a personal viewpoint, I would say yes, having seen the damage it does to lives of people.

As a politician, when you become Health and Social Care Minister, you are exposed to an awful lot more problems in society that maybe in your general lives you do not get to see.

However, as a Department, we are undergoing a full review of our Drug and Alcohol Strategy 730

at the moment. We have just gone out to tender for a body to review the actual problem, because there is no point us thinking what the problem is; we must know what the actual problem is in society. Therefore, we are, as I say, undergoing a full review of our Drug and Alcohol Strategy to see whether we should be making changes. We will be going out for consultation with the public and I look forward to the Hon. Member for Douglas East putting in a 735

contribution to that consultation. The President: Supplementary question from the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr

Clague. 740


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22 JT2016

Mr Clague: Thank you very much, Madam President. The Minister outlined the problems of alcohol stating that is a ‘burden upon society’. Does

that mean that alcohol is more damaging than cannabis? The President: Minister. 745

The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I think because alcohol is a legal product, therefore it is more damaging at the moment

because more people use it. There are well-documented levels of what the damage is to your health as a result, and family life, domestic violence, as I read out in my earlier answer. 750

I think it is only when we see the results of the cannabis trials that we will have an idea of whether we should look at it again or not and, as I say, we are doing a full consultation with the public.

Cannabis is also seen as a gateway drug. Sometimes it might be cool to have cannabis. It can react with different people, so genetically one person, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, may 755

be able to get away with using cannabis but the Hon. Member for Peel may find that it reacts with their body and damage is caused. There are an awful lot of problems out there that we do not know about.

Also, as I say, it can be used as a gateway drug. Sometimes you get onto cannabis and then you move into the heavier, say, Class A and Class B drugs. 760

I think it is a really tough question. Society should not stop people from being able to enjoy their life, but I think we have to put in controls that protect people because it is not always … The cannabis drug: other things can be added to it by unscrupulous dealers sometimes to get people hooked on stronger drugs.

It is a tough topic. We are going out for consultation as a Department and totally reviewing it 765

and I look forward, again, to the Hon. Member for Douglas North’s views.

11. Cannabis legalisation – Control and regulation

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Alex Hind) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

Whether legalising cannabis would make it easier to control and regulate? The President: Question 11: we will move on to that. I call on the Hon. Member for Michael,

Mr Hind. Mr Hind: Thank you, Madam President. 770

Would the Minister agree that legalising cannabis might make it easier to control and regulate?


The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Madam President. Legalising cannabis within a framework of regulations covering production, distribution,

supply and use could make it easier to control and regulate. It could also create a potential source of revenue for the Government.

Regulation would enable quality control so that users could be sure of the strength of the 780

product they were using and its likely effects.


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23 JT2016

Legalising cannabis would take users, producers and suppliers out of the criminal system. This could be beneficial for users as it would avoid the harm to them and their families resulting from criminal conviction. This would also be beneficial if producers and suppliers switched to legitimate cannabis trade and severed all links with other criminal activities, for example, as I 785

have mentioned in my previous answer, hard drugs or organised crime. We do not know if this would be the case or whether producers and suppliers would continue criminal activities, perhaps including illicit cannabis in order to undercut the legitimate market.

Recreational cannabis use has recently been legalised in Uruguay, Colorado and Washington State. The regulations differ between the three areas. It is too early to fully evaluate the results 790

of this legislation but over the next few years we will see whether this has improved control and legislation.

The President: Supplementary question, the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Gibson. 795

Mr Gibson: Thank you. Would the control and regulation along with the legalisation of cannabis and the revenue it

would generate for the Island not be more beneficial with the current war on drugs? The President: Minister. 800

The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Hon. Member for Middle, who has a little bit more hair than the current Member

for Middle who sits there. 805

The President: He is talking about himself, Hon. Members. (Laughter) The Minister: I would point out the cost of the damage. We have mentioned our mental

health facility, and the damage it can cause. I, as the Minister for Health and Social Care, in extreme cases, have to send people off the Island if they have severe problems, and the cost to 810

the taxpayer can be £5,000/£6,000 a week for that placement. I am not saying it is for everyone who gets cannabis; there are different levels of mental health issues, but not only does my Department have to pay costs of £4,000 to £6,000 a week, it then has to, if it is a young person, help fund the family to go and visit their loved one.

If you look at the number of people who are in prison at the moment: the very high 815

percentage of people who have an alcohol or drug problem has sadly seen them end up in Jurby Prison.

I think whilst, yes, it could raise a significant amount of money for the taxpayer, which could then be ploughed back into all sorts of items that the Island needs, I think you would have to balance that with the cost to people’s lives and then the cost to the Health Service and Social 820

Care Department of having to then look after those people who have had a bad reaction to the drug.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Stephens. 825

Mr Stephens: Thank you, Madam President. The Minister has mentioned several US states that have legalised, including Colorado, and he

also mentioned that cannabis itself can be viewed as a ‘gateway drug’. How will the Minister respond to evidence that, in those states where it has been legalised, there has been no increased used in harder drugs? 830

The President: Minister.


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24 JT2016

The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I think Colorado, Washington and Uruguay all acknowledge that there are harms associated 835

with cannabis use. The legislation has not been in long enough to indicate whether it leads to much wider use of cannabis and therefore greater harm across the population. I think this has only been in place a short time and I think we should review it in a couple of years’ time to see what their experiences are – and keep an open mind.

My mind is not totally closed to legalising it, but I think until the evidence shows that, where 840

they have tried it in other places, it has not led to an increase in crime … I am also hearing the evidence – which I have not got in my papers today – that in some of the schools there are problems reported as a result of students coming in high on cannabis.

Let’s wait and see what the results are. Sometimes fools rush in where angels fear to tread is a phrase that has a good point. 845

The President: The Hon. Member for Peel, Miss Kelly. Miss Kelly: Thank you, Madam President. Over the last year there have been many cases of people trying to smuggle cannabis into the 850

Island, most recently 20 kg on the Steam Packet the other day. Would legalising cannabis stop this criminalisation happening?


The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. I thank the Hon. Member for Peel for her question. I think I answered part of it in my earlier answers to one of the Douglas Members in that you

may have illegal activity in still undercutting the legal costs of a Government. If Government have to provide and regulate it, then that is going to come as a cost for that product: making 860

sure that the strengths, etc. are acceptable. I think you could still have some illegal activity, but the Hon. Member for Peel is quite right, it

would probably significantly reduce the amount of drugs being imported into the Isle of Man, but I am not totally convinced it would totally stop it.

Procedural – Remaining Questions to be considered on completion of Items 2 and 3 if time allows

The President: Hon. Members, we have now come to the point where we should conclude 865

our consideration of Questions. What I propose to do is move on to our debates and, if we have time at the end of the

debate, I may come back to those Questions which have not been asked yet. However, if our debates take the full time allocated, the Questions which have not yet been answered will be given by Written Answer which will be circulated to you. 870


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25 JT2016

Order of the Day

2. Abortion Laws – Government review requested –

Motion carried

The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Alex Hind) to move:

That Junior Tynwald is of the opinion that the current abortion laws are outdated and need to be reviewed.

The President: We turn now to Item 2 on our Order Paper, a debate on the Abortion Laws. I call on the Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Hind, to move the motion standing in his name. 875

Mr Hind: Thank you, Madam President. The Termination of Pregnancy (Medical Defences) Act 1995 was passed into legislation

21 years ago to update the Manx abortion law which had still been largely based on the 1872 Criminal Code, under which abortion had been illegal. Whilst a step forward, this Act was still less progressive than the equivalent law in the United Kingdom, the Abortion Act 1967, which 880

permits interpretations whereby social abortions can be carried out. However, the Island's laws only permit an abortion to be carried out if the hospital surgeon

carrying out the abortion and an independent medical practitioner agree that giving birth to the child would result in ‘grave, permanent injury’ to either the woman’s physical or mental health, or that the infant would be unlikely to survive long after birth or be seriously handicapped. 885

Alternatively, if the woman can prove the pregnancy was the result of a sexual crime before her 12th week of pregnancy, she is also permitted to receive an abortion.

This means that, in principle, it would be fairly easy for a pregnant woman to receive an abortion for medical reasons, but in practice it is a lot more difficult due to the fact that the Island possesses so few individuals able to act as ‘independent medical practitioners' especially 890

as, when the mental health of the woman is at risk, one of those practitioners needs to be a consultant psychiatrist. This means that there is a substantial waiting time of several weeks before both medical practitioners are available.

In the case of pregnancies as a result of a crime, the burden of proof often means that by the time the woman can meet all the other criteria she has surpassed the 12-week limit. These 895

factors, in addition to the fact that it makes no provision for a woman’s right to decide, leads to many women choosing to go across to the United Kingdom to pay privately for abortions – a process that can cost up to £2,000, but one that at least 105 chose to undertake last year, according to the Abortion Support Network.

Madam President, it seems ludicrous to me that, whilst this Government seems to have no 900

qualms about Manx women receiving abortions in principle, it should seem to have such an aversion to locally providing that service, evidenced by its reluctance to even review the area up until now.

Madam President, I beg to move that the Termination of Pregnancy (Medical Defences) Act 1995 be reviewed. 905

The President: Do we have a seconder to that motion? The Hon. Member for Peel, Miss Kelly. Miss Kelly: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Madam President. 910


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26 JT2016

The President: The motion is before you, Hon. Members. Does anyone wish to speak in support or against?

The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Unsworth. 915

Mr Unsworth: Thank you, Madam President. I would like to express my support for the Hon. Member for Michael’s motion and I recognise

the considerable benefits it could bring. However, as the Hon. Member alluded to, there are some physical and psychological issues which could arise from an increased uptake of the right to abort a child. 920

Do Hon. Members believe that it may be necessary to introduce new infrastructure to deal with these potential issues – potentially a support group for people who have undergone this procedure? Or, potentially, tests for some of the prevalent diseases or issues that can result, for example, links have been found with having an abortion and an increased risk of breast cancer or inflammatory pelvic diseases? 925

Thank you, Madam President. The President: The Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Stephens. Mr Stephens: Thank you, Madam President. 930

I would like to show my support for the Hon. Member for Michael and I would also like to respond to the Hon. Member of Council.

There have been several medical studies that have shown no support for any increase for breast cancer or any of the ailments that he has described. I would like to personally say that abortion is a difficult subject and, whatever side of the debate you are on, nobody particularly 935

wants more abortions. What we want is for women and their partners to be at their ease, and to be not under physical or emotional duress whilst undergoing this process.

In order for this to happen, we must have a system in which abortion is legal and available, not just legal but unattainable.

940

Mr C Thomas: Hear, hear. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Madam President. 945

I would just like to add to the debate that, as Minister for Health and Social Care, in the legislative programme for the year 2016-2017 it is the Department's intention to consult with the people of the Isle of Man on their views on altering the legislation; and, as I say, this will be happening in the next administration.

So I look forward to getting reviews and responses … or, I am sure the Minister for Health and 950

Social Care at the time will look forward to getting the reviews from the Members of this Hon. Court.

The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Draper. 955

Mr Draper: Thank you, Madam President. I would like to express my support for the Members for Ayre and Michael. However, would it

be more beneficial to have a longer period for having the abortion, so instead of 12 weeks make it 16 weeks or 20 weeks, so there is a longer time period for the woman to find those experts?

Thank you. 960

The President: Do you have any further contributions, Hon. Members? If there are no further contributions, I will call on the mover of the debate to reply, please.


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Mr Hind: Thank you, Madam President. 965

I would like to thank all the Hon. Members for their support and I would like to reassure the Member of Council, Mr Unsworth, that the Health Services on the Island already do provide quite a lot of post-abortion support for women who have gone across to England or Scotland to receive an abortion.

I would like to agree with the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Draper, that there does 970

indeed need to be a longer time period but I would also like to add that more specialists and consultants should be available, as just making the time period longer does not reduce their waiting time.

I beg to move that the Termination of Pregnancy (Medical Defences) Act 1995 be reviewed. 975

The President: Hon. Members, we now come to a vote. The mover did move his motion in slightly different wording to that on your Order Paper;

however, the sense is the same. So, those in favour of the motion, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Division

called. 980

Now, Hon. Members, that means that we will be recording the way everybody votes by taking an electronic vote. You cannot go out of the Chamber and say, ‘Well, I would have supported …’ or, ‘I didn’t …’. This is where your names go down on the record.

When the screen is ready we will tell you when to vote. If you are in favour of the motion, press the green button and if you are not in favour of it, press the red one. If you make a 985

mistake, just tell us and we will amend the vote. We are ready for you to vote now, Hon. Members.

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 23, Noes 1

FOR Mr Buckley Mr Clague Mr Costain Mr Hind Miss Bell Miss Brown Miss Currie Mr Draper Miss Duggan Mr Gibson Miss Glover Miss Goddard Miss Hewins Miss Johnson Miss Kelly Miss Mitchell Mr Morrison Mr Paterson Mr M Quayle Mr Salmon Mr Stephens The Speaker Mr S Thomas

AGAINST Mr Baker

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 23 votes for, 1 against.


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28 JT2016

In the Council – Ayes 9, Noes 0

FOR Mr Cover Mr J P Shimmin Miss Godby Miss Kerruish Miss Moran Miss Vickers Mr R H Quayle The Acting Lord Bishop Mr Unsworth

AGAINST None

The President: In the Council, 9 votes for and no votes against. The Branches are in 990

agreement: the motion therefore carries, Hon. Members. Thank you.

3. Unemployment Benefit – Reduction in rate –

Branches in disagreement – Notice of Intention to move motion at the next sitting of Junior Tynwald

The Hon. Member of Rushen (Miss Emily Currie) to move:

That Junior Tynwald believes that in an effort to encourage a more sustainable benefits system and to stimulate economic growth on the Island, the rate of unemployment benefit should be reduced.

The President: We move on to Item 3, the Unemployment Benefit. I call on the Hon. Member of Rushen, Miss Currie, to move the motion standing in her name. 995

Miss Currie: The current benefits’ system is thorough and well monitored, meaning that the

many checks and balances should ensure that everyone gets what they are due. However, this means that a huge administration network is needed to monitor the benefits’

system and a huge amount of money is needed just to get people the benefits they need. This is 1000

unsustainable and the administration must be reformed to a more efficient system. This could be done, for example, by computerising it to a certain extent or introducing stricter criteria and simplifying the process.

It is also very difficult and confusing to work out what benefits you are entitled to from the resources available to the public online. This is an issue, as some people may be struggling and 1005

do not know what benefits they are entitled to; this could mean that some people who need benefits are not getting what they need.

In some cases there are examples of people who are in work and are earning money but every month are getting less than those who are unemployed. This must stop. It is fundamentally unfair for someone who is working hard for their money to be receiving less than 1010

those who are not. It is also a significant disincentive for those who are on benefits to find work. This could be solved by, again, stricter criteria or a larger decrease in unemployment benefit for those who are not seen to be actively seeking work.

There are cases of the benefits’ system being exploited by fraud – people lie about jobs they are applying for and the circumstances they are in in order to increase their benefit money. This 1015

is not only unfair to those who are actively seeking work, or are in bad circumstances and telling the truth. It is also unfair to taxpayers whose hard-earned money is being used to fund this.


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29 JT2016

A reform needs to brought in which will minimise, if not eliminate, the possibility of fraud to make it fairer to the people and the Government and, in turn, be more sustainable. This could be done by random checks on people on unemployment benefit. These could be done by law 1020

enforcement officers according to a protocol produced by the Government. There could also be the creation of a more integrated interface regarding Job Centres, where

Job Centres share data on who is actively seeking jobs. This data would be available to other Job Centres and to the Government. This would be more sustainable as less fraud means less money lost and more people will be encouraged to find jobs – and more money will be put into the 1025

economy as a result of this. Also, an alternative could be for those who have been on unemployment benefit for a longer

time to have a choice: either drastically reduce their unemployment benefit or be offered a Government-provided job.

There could also be the introduction of a programme for offenders in prison to get them 1030

thinking about life after prison. The programme should train prisoners and leave them with a useful qualification which would, hopefully, improve their employability prospects and reduce unemployment. The increased stability should be a disincentive to reoffend, making the benefits’ system more sustainable overall.

1035

The President: Do we have a seconder to the motion? The Hon. Member for Rushen, Miss Mitchell. Miss Mitchell: Madam President, I beg to second Miss Currie’s motion and reserve my

remarks. 1040

The President: Any contributions to the debate? The Hon. Member, Mr Unsworth. Mr Unsworth: Madam President, I wish to present an amendment to the original motion. 1045

The President: Indeed. Would you like to speak to your amendment, sir? Mr Unsworth: I would like to firstly say that I wholeheartedly agree with the Hon. Member

for Rushen that reforms to the benefits’ system are necessary in order to increase sustainability 1050

and to improve economic growth on the Island. However, I question whether changes to the existing system will prove drastic enough to achieve improvement on the desired scale.

I thus move to amend the motion believing that a Universal Basic Income (UBI) strategy would prove more beneficial in the Isle of Man. Under this system, also referred to as ‘a citizen’s wage’, every adult Manx resident will be entitled to an income from the Government, irrelevant 1055

of their financial situation. This income would be set at £2,900 per annum or a revised approximation which would actually represent the minimum national cost of living.

The existing Income Support and Jobseeker’s Allowance Government payments would be abolished whilst payments aiding society's most vulnerable, such as the Disability Living Allowance, would remain protected. The introduction of a system of unconditional income 1060

would quash the current relationship of mutual exclusivity which divides unemployment benefit claimants from the employed. This would mean that citizens would never reach a situation, as alluded to by the Hon. Member for Rushen, whereby it is more financially worthwhile to claim Jobseeker’s Allowance than to remain in employment.

Additionally, a basic income could be seen to increase people's appetite for work by adding 1065

to their sense of stability with a wage from the Government facilitating easier access to transport and childcare.

In terms of sustainability, a UBI strategy is notably proactive and a citizen’s wage could be viewed as a means of providing a salary for any adult from the Island currently engaged in


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30 JT2016

informal work: caring for elderly family members and friends, who may not therefore have time 1070

for traditional paid employment. Living in an ageing society as we do, the number of informal carers is rising, with the UK having witnessed an 11% increase between 2001 and 2011.

I am of the belief that the concept of Universal Basic Income goes beyond the promotion of sustainability. In fact, one of its most crucial advantages can be found in its societal fairness. All citizens will be guaranteed the same benefit from the Government with few opportunities left 1075

for the exploitation of the system through fraud. This is particularly pertinent, given that various cases of unemployment benefit fraud have been ruled on in recent years.

Advocates of UBI also state that such a strategy could prove fairer in relation to couples where only the husband is working, having the effect of increasing female financial independence. During experiments with a Universal Basic Income system in the USA, a side-1080

effect was the increase in the number of women able to leave abusive relationships whereupon they could find employment and further exercise their economic liberty.

I support the Minister in stating that the current benefits’ system is in need of reform. However, I hope that Hon. Members will support the amendment I have put forward which proposes that instead of attempting to make minor alterations to the existing system, a 1085

Universal Basic Income Strategy be introduced. I beg to move my amendment. This Junior Tynwald believes that the current system of social security benefits should be substituted for an unconditional income system whereby every adult receives a set benefit amount regardless of circumstances or employment status. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Draper. Mr Draper: Thank you, Madam President. 1090

I would like to disagree with Mr Unsworth on his – The President: Can I just, as a technicality, Hon. Member, ask you to resume your seat, and

let me be clear … You were disagreeing with – ? 1095

Mr Draper: Mr Unsworth. The President: The Hon. Member of Council. He has put forward an amendment and, before we can debate it, it really needs to be 1100

seconded. So we need somebody in support of his motion to second it, and then we can debate it freely.

The Hon. Member for Ayre, Mr Stephens. Mr Stephens: Thank you, Madam President. I am willing to second the motion and will 1105

reserve my remarks for later. The President: Well, technically, you cannot reserve your remarks to an amendment, but

because I said earlier on I will not be too strict today about Standing Orders, I will allow you to come in later, sir. 1110

We have a seconder now for that amendment, the Member for Ayre, Mr Stephens; and we will proceed with debate.

Mr Draper. Mr Draper: Thank you, Madam President. 1115


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31 JT2016

This UBI proposal was put forward in Switzerland recently to the people in a referendum. I am not entirely sure what the percentages were but they voted unanimously in favour of rejecting it.

How would this proposal be funded, as we are already dipping into the pot of money in the reserves? How would it be fair to the people who are already much wealthier than the people 1120

who are claiming these benefits? How would it be fair? How would it be balanced out between them? Thank you. The President: Does anyone else wish to contribute their views for or against either the main 1125

motion or the amendment? The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Clague. Mr Clague: I would like to disagree with Mr Unsworth, as I do not believe – 1130

The President: Would you like to stand, sir, so that Members can all hear you? Mr Clague: I would like to disagree with Mr Unsworth, as I do not believe it to be

economically viable to provide a citizen’s wage when there are already those with disability allowances who are unable to find work. 1135

Should we not, therefore, reduce employment benefits and increase disability allowances? The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Teare. The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President. 1140

I would just respectfully draw to this Hon. Court’s attention that the benefits’ system is currently under review.

There was a report commissioned some three years ago, the so-called Ci65 Report, and the benefits are currently under review. The first stage of that was changes to the state pension system, which we are bringing before Tynwald tomorrow. 1145

So that is the first step to ensure that we put in place a robust pension system which will ensure, as far as we can, that the pension system is sustainable for the next generation and also your generation as well, so when your turn comes, there should be something available for you.

Turning to the amendment in the name of Mr Unsworth, where would the incentives be to work? And, if we are not careful, we would be disincentivising people from actually participating 1150

in the employment market. We need as many people as possible to participate in paid-for employment to, in effect, move the economy forward – and not to rely upon labour coming into the Isle of Man. If we rely upon the employment needs to be satisfied by people coming into the Island we have a dichotomy, because then we have to recognise that there will be a demand on our resources: housing, transport, electricity, water and everything else that we take as being 1155

part of a sustainable community. Also, there are good academic reports produced – and this has been done over many years –

showing there is a strong correlation between work and good health, and those people who do not work, for whatever reason, tend to have poorer health experiences.

The point which was made by – I think it was the Hon. Member for South Douglas: how do 1160

you pay for it and how is the cost going to be met? I think it came up in an answer to the Panama Question earlier on. We are a low tax jurisdiction and overall, in terms of Government spending, we spend about 25% of national income – compare that with the UK at 47%. But in many respects we have very similar health and social care and benefits’ system to the UK, so as the population ages, then those strains in our finances will become more and more apparent 1165

and, rather than take on another commitment, I would say that we need to have a look at the commitments that we have already.


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32 JT2016

With respect to the hon. mover of the amendment, I think this amendment is flawed; but also in respect of the main motion, I would encourage Hon. Members to be reassured that there is work under way and I am sure that my successors in office will be moving forward with the 1170

Ci65 Report. With that, Madam President, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak today. The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Stephens. 1175

Mr Stephens: Thank you, Madam President. I would like to express my support for the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Unsworth, in suggesting the amendment.

I would also like to add: with the economy of the world increasingly becoming technologically focused and low skilled and, possibly, low-paid jobs becoming increasingly harder to find, I feel that it is the responsibility of central Government to provide some form of Universal Basic 1180

Income so that each individual in society can survive, at the very least. The President: The Hon. Member Mr Thomas, Senior. (Laughter) Mr Singer: Very senior! 1185

The Acting Chief Minister (Mr C Thomas): Thank you very much indeed, Madam President. In this motion I see the crucial word as ‘should’. Both the motion and the amendment use the

word ‘should’. This is a declaratory resolution asking for this Hon. Court to ask its Government to actually investigate the situation and work out the options going forward; and, on that basis, I 1190

make a few remarks. Obviously, the mover of the motion, Miss Currie, Hon. Member for Rushen, has identified the

value of computerising, simplifying, making things online and giving incentives, and they are all very valuable points that should be taken into the review. But Mr Unsworth, hon. colleague for Council, has actually identified, conceivably, the benefits of a citizen’s income, or a basic income, 1195

as he called it. Such a benefit has the attraction of universality. The two main attractions of universality are that it should be cheaper to administer because everybody is getting it; and, secondly, it should avoid jealousy and a sense of unfairness because everybody gets it.

Moreover, I wanted to conclude with two points. The first one is that the Hon. Treasury Minister mentioned the Ci65 Report. In the Ci65 Report, Government was actually encouraged 1200

to consider the idea that Mr Unsworth has raised. There was a paragraph about basic income and citizen’s income but Treasury has chosen, to date, not to even consider that point. We have to respect Mr Draper's statement of fact, which is that in Switzerland, where the people were asked to consider a basic income, over 70% did actually vote against it at a referendum, because of the issues of cost and the difficulty of introducing such a measure. Often, in the Isle of Man, 1205

we have to remember that we cannot afford big Government because we are a ‘littleish Island’ – we need little Government for our big Island.

With that, Madam President, I actually commend the amendment because the amendment would give us the benefit of both that investigation and the mover’s investigation in the context of Government’s investigation into a new benefit. I think in a year or so's time, after that proper 1210

investigation, we would have better understanding of the facts and the evidence to make an evidence-based policy decision.

Thank you, Madam President, and Hon. Members. The President: Does any other Hon. Member wish to speak? If not, I will invite the mover to 1215

reply, please. Miss Currie: This motion is suggesting reform of the unemployment benefit system, reducing

administration and introducing more proactive programmes.


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33 JT2016

The amendment is suggesting a fairer and a potentially more beneficial system, an incentive 1220

of which could be, ‘Why would you stay on a benefit everyone gets when you could add to that by getting a job’? It may also encourage people to pursue their dream job and contribute to a happier population. It will increase stability for all but it will be expensive, with possibly a limited return.

However, as we move into a more mechanised future with a greater probability for freelance 1225

work, it may be good for the Manx Government to take proactive action for the future before these changes happen.

The President: At this point, Hon. Members, we come to our voting. First of all we shall vote

on the amendment, as tabled by Mr Unsworth. 1230

Those in favour of the amendment, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. Division called, which means we shall move to an electronic vote on the amendment, Hon.

Members.



FOR Mr Hind Miss Bell Mr Stephens

AGAINST Mr Baker Mr Buckley Mr Clague Mr Costain Miss Brown Miss Currie Mr Draper Miss Duggan Mr Gibson Miss Glover Miss Goddard Miss Hewins Miss Johnson Miss Kelly Miss Mitchell Mr Morrison Mr Paterson Mr M Quayle Mr Salmon The Speaker Mr S Thomas

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 3 votes for, 21 against. 1235


FOR Miss Godby Miss Kerruish Miss Vickers The Acting Lord Bishop Mr Unsworth

AGAINST Mr Cover Miss Moran Mr R H Quayle Mr J P Shimmin

The President: In the Council, 5 votes for and 4 votes against. The Branches are in

disagreement, Hon. Members. The amendment fails. We now come to the motion as printed on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye;

against, no. I think the noes have it. Come on, let’s have your voices!


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34 JT2016

A division has been called so we can get a proper record. 1240



FOR Mr Baker Mr Clague Mr Costain Miss Bell Miss Brown Miss Currie Mr Draper Miss Glover Miss Goddard Miss Hewins Miss Kelly Miss Mitchell Mr M Quayle Mr Salmon

AGAINST Mr Buckley Mr Hind Miss Duggan Mr Gibson Miss Johnson Mr Morrison Mr Paterson Mr Stephens The Speaker Mr S Thomas

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 14 votes for, 10 against.


FOR Mr Cover Miss Kerruish Miss Vickers

AGAINST Miss Godby Miss Moran Mr R H Quayle Mr J P Shimmin MHK The Acting Lord Bishop Mr Unsworth

The President: In the Council, 3 votes for and 6 votes against. Now, what happens in this case, Hon. Members, is that the Keys have passed it by a majority;

the Council have not passed it and so the motion fails to carry – it does not have an agreement 1245

between both Branches. (Interjection by Mr Malarkey) The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Malarkey, has said that if we were coming back next

month, the hon. mover could seek to have a vote of the whole Court. I see she is on her feet, so I will invite her. 1250

Miss Currie: I call for the vote to be taken next month. The President: Thank you, Hon. Member, notice is taken of that proposal and, under

Standing Orders, a vote will be taken of the whole Court on this motion at the next Junior 1255

Tynwald sitting. Thank you very much, Hon. Members, you are amazing timekeepers! That concludes

consideration of our Order Paper today.


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35 JT2016

Address by Mr Jordan Linden, Scottish Youth Parliament

The President: Before we adjourn for lunch I would like to invite our guest this morning who 1260

is Jordan Linden, former Chair of the Scottish Youth Parliament, to talk to you for a few moments.

I invite him to take the chair.

Mr Linden: Good afternoon, everyone. 1265

I would like to begin my remarks this afternoon by sincerely thanking you, Madam President, for allowing me to address you from this Chamber and to further thank all of those involved in arranging my visit to the Isle of Man over the course of the coming days.

It has been a privilege to observe the proceedings of your Junior Tynwald Sitting, and I would like to pay particular congratulations to all who took part through contributing, from the floor, 1270

your thoughts, your feelings and your views on the topics that were being discussed. When I was contemplating what I would say today before I arrived, I had spoken with a

number of people as to what to say to a group of engaged and passionate young people. Then I thought, ‘Well, why don’t I do something that I genuinely don’t like doing?’ And that is sharing and talking about my own experience. 1275

I first got involved in what we could call democracy, or youth engagement, in 2009. I had a tough time at school. I had been bullied for who I was as a person. It is difficult to reflect on that because it was not traditional bullying. It was not a bully and me; it was comments from multiple people over the course of many years, and that builds up.

So, when I saw the poster in 2009, aged 14, I thought I had nothing to lose in standing for the 1280

Scottish Youth Parliament. I thought it would be an opportunity to stand and give young people a voice, particularly those young people who felt like they did not have a voice for whatever reason that may be. So I stood, thinking that I had nothing to lose. And the irony: I came third out of four and lost miserably! There I was, giving it a go and I had been rejected. I felt like giving up but, as I was leaving the election count, a lady called Myra Murray, a youth worker to heart 1285

and a local manager to profession told me, ‘Stick in, stay involved. You will get there some day!’ And I did.

I set up a youth forum with the elected candidate and worked hard to get young people’s voices heard locally. Eventually, I became involved in the authority-wide Youth Council and from there I became an Ambassador to the Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games. 1290

In 2011, I was elected, at last, as a Member of the Scottish Youth Parliament. I decided to throw myself head first into the role and stood successfully two months later to become one of the youngest directors in Scotland in 2011, being elected on my 16th birthday.

From there I continued my involvement in many organisations, and my role with the Commonwealth Games took me to the London 2012 Olympic Games with the then First Minister 1295

of Scotland and the Scottish Government’s Minister for the Commonwealth Games and Sport. It was an incredible opportunity to tour the Athletes’ Village, to meet the Mayor and to spend time with senior figures from government and from sport.

From 2012 onwards, I was then re-elected to the Scottish Youth Parliament in 2013 and again in 2015. In 2014, I was appointed by Young Scot, the national youth and citizenship charity, and 1300

the Scottish Government to act as a commissioner on smoking prevention and to report to the Minister our findings as to how to prevent young people from taking up smoking.

Finally, my youth empowerment career finished with me becoming the leader of the Scottish Youth Parliament in 2015, a position which allowed me to meet regularly with Government Ministers – both UK and Scottish – to deliver speeches to groups like yourselves, to host events 1305

and appear on television and broadcast media to share the positive views and the positive stories about young people in Scotland.

So that is my story in a nutshell. But what does it mean for you? What benefit does me talking to you for four minutes about my experience do for you?


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36 JT2016

I hope, first of all, there is a message in there for all of you around determination. About not 1310

giving up when you lose or when the times get tough. I hope there is a message in there for all of you that reflects the sheer importance and the role that young people can play in making a difference to our society. And it is on that thought that I really want to linger for the remainder of my remarks today: about the power of young people in the world we live in.

We live in a world today that is filled with uncertainty: from the vote by the United Kingdom 1315

to leave the European Union and for Scotland, Northern Ireland and the City of London to return a resounding vote to remain a member of the European Union, which leaves my country with the real prospect of being removed from the European Union against our expressed will; to the global issues and challenges we face, from climate change to the threats to our security.

These are not issues just for politicians. These are issues for all of us, as human beings. They 1320

are issues that take us to the core of who we are, as people. And I highlight these issues because I firmly believe in the role of young people in helping,

not only to tackle these issues, but to future-proof any actions that we take. In my biography, ahead of this event, I state my belief in the power of young people to help create a better tomorrow, today, and I reaffirm that belief to you all. 1325

Having heard the contributions you have made, listened to the questions you have put and the ideas and principles which you have presented, I am in no doubt as to the power you all have to help make a difference.

It is incredible therefore that, like Scotland, the Isle of Man has recognised the importance of young people’s voices and views in politics and has extended the franchise to 16- and 17-year-1330

olds, enabling them to vote and participate in elections. That said, I have heard claims that turnout amongst young people of that age group is not the highest it could be.

Well, let me say this: in 2014, the people of Scotland were asked to cast their vote on whether Scotland should or should not be an independent country. And, whilst I will say nothing more on the result of that referendum, what I will take great pride in is the sheer number of 1335

young people aged 16 and 17 who, for the first time ever in the history of our country, cast their vote and did so in incredible numbers.

So what is the secret to that success? It is grassroots engagement. Too often the politics of politics is all-consuming and disengages, not only young people but even those who are not in that age bracket. Why, therefore, did the referendum cause so many young people to have their 1340

say? Because it was a politics of people, a politics of difference and a politics of change. That type of transformative politics is exactly the type of politics that young people find

themselves having agency with: issue-based politics that make people stand up, have their voice heard and mobilise a generation to make a difference. That is what our independence referendum delivered. It woke up a nation and engaged them in one of the biggest political 1345

discussions of our time, the aftermath of which saw political party memberships soaring and the SNP becoming one of the biggest political parties in the UK.

So why do I reflect on Scotland’s referendum here today? Because it is important and it is a message that should resonate with young people and politicians alike. For politicians, the message must be that more effort should be made to engage, to inspire and to foster a sense of 1350

democratic engagement and participation in young people. For you as young people it should be about getting involved, making your voice heard and using your democratic right to help shape the future.

On a separate note, I would like to wish you, Madam President, all the very best in the future as I know that today marks your last day as the President. I would also like to say that I am 1355

aware that Members of the parliament are concluding in office in August, with the elections in September. I wish all of you the very best of success for your continued good public service.

I want to bring my remarks to a conclusion today by once again thanking you and your colleagues, Madam President, for allowing me the privilege of being here and speaking to such an incredible group of people. 1360


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37 JT2016

My final words are for all the young people here today – be that young or young at heart. We live in a world filled with challenges and our world can often seem an incredibly dark place. Therefore, your voices and views are so important. Why? Because so often in this dark and stormy world, young people are the shining lighthouses to help guide us through the dark times. Let’s not dismiss the views of young people but embrace them and their ability to create a 1365

better and fairer future for all of us. Thank you very much.

Thanks to Members

The President: Well, Hon. Members, that does conclude our sitting today. I want to thank all of you for coming and participating. I hope that, in spite of perhaps feeling

a bit nervous, you have enjoyed the experience. I do hope, too, that you have been inspired by 1370

the words that you have just heard from Jordan. The future is yours; please do participate in what happens and, in going forward, express

your views so that your country can reflect them. At this point, Hon. Members, we will adjourn and go for lunch. Thank you very much. 1375

Questions for Written Answer

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

12. Young persons’ mental health – Long-term strategy

The Hon. Member of the Council, Miss Emma Vickers, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

What the Governments’ long-term strategy is for dealing with young persons’ mental health?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Quayle): The Child & Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS) is a multidisciplinary specialist team supporting young people having difficulty dealing with mental health and emotional wellbeing issues. The Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service offers consultation and liaison with other professional services and people who can support young people and their families or carers Island-wide. 1380

As a service we are working together with other services and professional people to help young people manage their own mental health and wellbeing and to get support when they need it. We have a number of plans in place that means that different professions can work together for the benefit of young people and their families and carers. Our Plan for improved mental health services focuses on children having access to early help and intervention where 1385

possible. The Department has also invested in a programme called ‘Emotional First Aid’ which is about

encouraging those individuals who work with children and young people to work more effectively together when people need help or advice on mental health issues or a child may be in emotional crisis. This has been rolled out to schools across the Island. 1390


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38 JT2016

All secondary schools have a school listener who is available to listen to young people who are in emotional distress and children can have regular appointments for support and counselling in school.

We also offer a service to children with moderate to severe mental health problems. In the past 12 months the number of people working within the mental health service has 1395

grown from 7.4 to 17.5 whole time equivalent staff to provide additional support to young people and their families and carers with 24/7 and 365 days a year support in place. Waiting lists are significantly lower than they were 12 months ago.

We have established clear eligibility criteria for people to access these services and we work with other agencies to establish clear pathways through to CAMHS. 1400

With the introduction of additional multi-disciplinary staff teams we have recently set up emergency out of hours cover for children who are presenting in acute crisis. Together with our wrap around service they are working out of hours and at weekends to prevent children going into hospital.

Our longer term plans are to move into larger premises now that we have grown as a team 1405

and as our services develop we are continuing to work on emergency provision for children who require admission into hospital and we are entering into a formal agreement with an off Island provider to improve access to specialist off island placements ensuring greater consistency and continuity of care to meet the needs of the island’s children and young people.

Over the last 12 months, significant investment has been made in the provision of additional 1410

staff and specialist training available across the Island.

13. Students’ health and well-being – Government strategy

The Hon. Member for Ayre (Mr Toby Stephens) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How the Isle of Man Government is dealing with health and well-being of students in times of significant changes in education and increased social pressure?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Quayle): Protecting and improving the health

and wellbeing of children and young people is a priority across Government – not just the Department of Health and Social Care.

Young people face pressures that were not a problem for previous generations. It is very 1415

important that we use evidence based methods to inform and equip young people with skills to cope with stressful situations – skills that will stay with them through school and college into adult life.

Although we are living longer than ever before, stress and unhealthy lifestyles reduce our health and wellbeing. Major risk factors include being overweight, poor diet, lack of physical 1420

activity, smoking, drug or alcohol misuse and engaging in risky sexual behaviour. Schools and the college provide ideal settings to inform children and young people about

lifestyle risk factors and to provide environments that support healthy choices. The Department of Education and Children oversees the Personal, Social, Health and

Economic curriculum which is designed to equip children and young people with the knowledge 1425

and skills they need for life. This curriculum is delivered by teachers with each school able to shape the content to suit local need.

The Department of Health and Social Care school nurses do a ‘health profile’ of each school to identify priorities for support. This year the School Nursing Service is piloting a smart phone service for children at risk of self-harm. The Department of Education and Children is working 1430

with Mental Health to provide a ‘listening service’ to identify and support children with mental


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or emotional health problems. An Emotional First Aid Programme to support children with emotional distress is also underway.

HOME AFFAIRS

14. Offenders – Prison or non-custodial sentences

The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mr James Morrison) to ask the Minister for Home Affairs:

Whether it is economically viable for the Isle of Man Government to fund a large prison facility, when greater use could be made of non-custodial sentences?

The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): I am grateful to the Hon. Member for

Douglas East for his Question because it allows me the opportunity to highlight the work of the 1435

Prison and Probation Service. I think I should make it clear that imprisonment is not treated lightly it is reserved for the

most serious offences and is used on the Island as a disposal of last resort. To clarify the purpose of the prison is to ensure public protection by keeping those sent to prison by the Courts in safe custody. Importantly in addition Prison is used as an opportunity to encourage the offenders to 1440

change their lives and desist from offending. I must reiterate only those regarded as a risk to society are imprisoned. Detailed consideration was given to the capacity required for a Prison, on the Island, in

advance of its construction taking account of the need to separate categories of prisoners. I believe the Jurby Prison has proven to be an institution of the right size and capacity for the 1445

Island and I can confirm that costs are kept to an absolute minimum while international standards for detention are complied with and rehabilitation is provided and developed.

Although in a perfect world there would not be a need for imprisonment, regrettably I cannot envisage a time when a prison will not be required on the Island to detain serious offenders.

The Hon. Member for Douglas East suggests the use of non-custodial sentences and I am 1450

pleased to inform him these are already widely used. Currently there are 68 people on Probation Supervision and 38 people on Community Service Orders, a total of 106, and given there were 93 people in prison as of the 13th July, this clearly demonstrates that in fact non-custodial sentence are used in more cases than imprisonment.

I can further advise that the Criminal Justice Strategy and developments in the Prison and 1455

Probation Service will lead to an even greater use of non-custodial sentencing.

CHIEF MINISTER

15. Government reserves – Availability of funds

The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Miss Daisy Goddard) to ask the Chief Minister:

How much longer the Government can keep taking money from the reserves? The Acting Chief Minister (Mr C Thomas): In recent years the availability of reserves has

been crucial in Government’s strategy of rebalancing the budget, and it is recognised that the


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extent to which reliance has been placed on the reserves cannot continue at the same level going forward. Government is currently following the financial plan set out in the medium term 1460

financial strategy which was approved at the July 2015 sitting of Tynwald. It is intended that this will lead to sustainable public finances where general revenue expenditure is met from income without the need to draw from reserves.

Under current projections, Government’s reliance on reserves will have reduced to around £16 million by the year 2021-22 compared to £117 million in 2016-17. 1465

Gross expenditure for 2016-17 is estimated at £955 million and is predicted to rise to around £1,103million by 2021-22.

Therefore, taken as a percentage of gross expenditure, the reliance on reserves is projected to be on a downward trend from 12% in 2016-17 to around 1.5% in 2021-22.

The Court adjourned at 12.08 p.m.

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