QUESTIONS OF PRACTICE Capturing the tone, celebrating the ...1 Twyla Tharp founded her dance...

THE PEW CENTER FOR ARTS & HERITAGE / PCAH.US / @PEWCENTER_ARTS

Capturing the tone, celebrating the work: A conversation with Wendy Rogers & Sara RudnerIntroduced by Lisa Kraus

QUESTIONS OF PRACTICE

Capturing the tone, celebrating the workA conversAtion with wendy rogers And sArA rudner introduced by LisA KrAus

dAte: september 29, 2007pLAce: pAneL room, the pew center for Arts & heritAge

Lisa Kraus: It’smyhonortosayafewwordsbeforeSaraRudnerandWendyRogersspeaktousandshowvideoexamplesoftheworktheymadetogether.Iwanttobeginbymentioninga“behindthescenes”momentIjustwitnessed:WendywaschattingwithSaraaboutsomethingshehadbeenobserving.Ihavenoideawhatitwas.Butitwassomovingtoherthatshehadtogetupanddemonstrate.Notonlydemonstrate,butalsorunaroundinacircle.AndthenSaradoubledoverinlaughter.Theywerelookingateachotherliketherewasnooneontheplanettheywouldratherbetalkingto.AndIbelievethat’swhywe’rehere.

Thefirstthingthatcomestomindistheyear1975.ThatwaswhenSaraputtogetherherfive-hourproject,Dancing-on-View(seeAppendixA),whichwe’regoingtoseeasampleofontape.Thisprojectpremieredin1975,withWendyasaparticipant.

Justthispastspring[2007],anotherversionofthepiecewasperformedattheBaryshnikovArtsCenterinNewYorkCity.Itwasfourhoursratherthanfive.

Ofcourse,around1975,peoplehadbeenlookingatRobertWilson’stheaterworks,whichextendedoursenseoftimeconsiderably.Therehadalsobeenalotofmusicalandperformanceworkthatdealtwithaminimalistaestheticofrepetition,aprocessofrecyclingmaterial.Morethan30yearslateritseemsasifaudiencesareveryexcitedandreadytoreturntothiswork.DeborahJowittwroteabouttheNewYorkCityperformancelastMarchinveryeffusiveterms.Attheendshelistedeverysingleoneofthe17dancers.Jowitt’slastlineinthatreviewwasthatthesedancersare“mykindofheroes.”

SaraRudnerandWendyRogers(lefttoright),November Duets,MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,1977.PhotobyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesySaraRudner.

d A n c e A d v A n c e

PhotoproofsofWendyRogersandSaraRudner,November Duets,MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,1977.PhotosbyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesyWendyRogers.

capturing the tone, celebrating the workAconversationwithWendyRogersandSaraRudnerintroducedbyLisaKraus 2

WhenImentionedthistoVickyShick,whowasintheshow,shesaid,“Oh,thatwoman[Sara]!Sheworkslikeadog.Andshe’sstillarealdanceratheart.”

VickywentontomentionhowSarahadsatforthreehoursorsoduringthecourseoftheperformance,andthengottenupanddoneanincrediblesolo.Isaidsomethinglike,“Well,sheobviouslyreallylovesthedancing,youknow,”andVickyandItogethersaid,“Well,that’swhatit’sallabout.”

WendyRogersisCalifornianbybirth.AgraduateoftheUniversityofCalifornia,Berkeley,indanceandtheater,shestartedchoreographingquiteearlyandspentsometimeinNewYorkwheretheconnectionwithSarawasforged.Usually,ifI’mspeakingaboutsomebody,I’vehadtheopportunitytolookatalotmoreworkthanI’veseenofWendy’s.SoI’matabitofadisadvantagethatway.I’mactuallygladthatwe’regoingtobeseeingmoretonight.Butmyunderstandingisthatshe’sbeenveryinterestedinasenseofplaceallalong;thatthelandscapeitself,thearchitectures,theenvironmentshavealwaysreallyloomedlarge,aswellastherelationshipswiththepeopleintheworkandhowthattranslatesintowhattheactualmaterialitselfis.

Wendy’swrittenaboutthedifficultyofcontinuingtodoadancewhensomeofthepeoplewhohavecreatedthatdanceareslippingaway,thattheworkitselfwillmorphandchange.Thisisachoreographerwhoactuallymadethechoicetodissolveherdancecompany,whichexistedfrom1977until1990,infavorofmakingamoremalleableinfrastructure.Thischangeisoneofthethingsthatshetalkedaboutinhervisitheretwoyearsago.

Idon’tknowifIcanspeakformorepeopleinthisregard,butIwasverymovedtohearaboutWendy’stransformationasadanceartistinthepresentationshemadeinPhiladelphiaMarch15,2005,alsosponsoredbyDanceAdvance.[See As Seen Through the Windshield (and Other Perspectives on Making Dances),www.pcah.us/m/dance/as-seen-through-the-windshield.pdf]

InWilliamLeastHeat-Moon’sbookRiver-Horse,thecharacterstakeajourneywithcanoes,andtheydoportage.Theirmottois,“Proceedasthewayopens.”InthinkingaboutWendy,Ifindarealconnectionwiththatideabecauseshehasmorphedfromsomeonewhohassucceededinworkingwiththemoreexpectedsortsofinfrastructure—youmakeapieceeveryseason,yougetthegrantfunding,youworkwithinrecognizablestructures—tosomeonewhowasnotafraidtosay,“Waitaminute.Thisformdoesnotquitefitme.Iwanttorelatetomyideasoveralongerhaul.”Thistransformedintoher10-year-longworkcalledMAKESHIFT dancing.

AsIunderstandit,Wendytookacertainkindofbodyofmaterialandsetofinterestsandkeptreworkingthemindifferentcontexts,withdifferentpeople,withthenotionthatitwas


onelong,continuouspiecetobecompletedoverthecourseofafulldecade.Justpersonally,itwassoliberatingtohearthat,tounderstandhowWendywasworking.Researchingalittlefurther,Isawthatshewasinvitedtomakeafilmin1985,whichwascompletedin1995.Theeditingprocessinvolvedallkindsofshiftsrelativetothematerialandchallengesrelativetohowoneedits.Ithinkit’ssoeasyforustonotgivesufficientvaluetowhatishappeningintheseinterstices.Wendy’smodelhastodowithvaluingprocess,valuingcreatingaformthatisreallyappropriatetowhatwedo,whateachofusdoes.

SaraRudner,anativeNewYorker,attendedBarnard,andgraduatedoneyearafterTwylaTharp.1ShewasdancingwithPaulSanasardoatthetime,whoseworkwasinatheatricalmoderndancemode.ThenshewasinvitedtoauditionforTwyla’sveryfirstgroup.ForareallylongtimeTwylaworkedthemfourhoursaday,sixdaysaweek.

sara rudner: Yes,wedidalotofwork.

Lisa Kraus: Theydidn’tgetapenny.Andyouweredoingclericalwork,Ibelieve?

sara rudner: Yes.

Lisa Kraus: SaraworkedwithTwylafor20yearsand,formanyofthoseyears,alsodirectedtheSaraRudnerPerformanceEnsemblethatincludedanumberofpeoplewhohavegoneontobesuccessfulchoreographersintheirownright.(SeeAppendixB.)Ithinkoneofthemostfascinatingaspectsofbeingindancelonghaulisthesatisfactionofseeinghowpeopledevelopovertime.Sothat’sprobablywhatIlookforwardtohearingaboutmostofallbetweenthetwoofyou:howyourrelationshipandyourworkhavedevelopedovertheyears.Weverymuchappreciateyourbeingwithustoday.

sara rudner: Well,whatyoumighthavewitnessedusdoingatthebeginningofthesessionthisevening—Wendydancingandmedoublingoverwithlaughter—that’sthebasisofourrelationship.

1TwylaTharpfoundedherdanceensemble,Twyla Tharp Dance,in1965.Aseminalfigureinthewesterndanceworld,shehaschoreographedmorethan135dances,fiveHollywoodmovies,anddirectedandchoreographedfourBroadwayshows.Seeherwebsiteforafullbioandlinkstoinformationaboutherincrediblecreativeoutput:www.twylatharp.org.

WendyRogers,Drove She Ducklings,NewYork,1976.PhotobyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesyWendyRogers.



Wemeteachothersometimeinthesummerof1974.IhadjustleftTwylaTharp’scompanyforthefirsttimeandIwasinvitedbyCarolynBrowntogotoaloftperformancebeinggivenbyWendyRogers.Ididn’tknowWendyRogers.Isatthereinthisnarrowloft,andwatchedthisdancingandIsaid,“Oh,myGod!”Wendydidamove.Shejustputherrightorleftfootout,andshejustliftedonetoe.Isaid,“I’vegottoworkwiththatperson.”

wendy rogers: Sheinvitedmeoutforaneggcream.IwasfromtheWestCoast.Ihadnoideawhataneggcreamwas.Iwasalittlebitconcerned.

sara rudner: We’reEastCoastpeople,sowehadaneggcream.Itwasveryobvioustome—andithasbeenprovensooverthedecades—thatthisisauniquerelationship,onethatIhaveneverfoundwithanyoneelse:beingabletogointoaroomandcomeoutattheendofanafternoonwitha20-minutedancethathasallsortsofdetailandvarietyandcommitment.Imean,that’sunheardof.

wendy rogers: Ithinkwhatwebothlikeisreallystellarwaysofnotknowingwhatwe’redoing.

IwasjustamazedthatthiscollaborationwasgoingtohappenbecauseIhadseenSaraperform,andbeensotakenwithhermovement.Whenwefirstwentintothestudiotoworkshestartedtwirling,andIstartedjumping.Thenshewouldtwirl,andIwouldjump.Andthat’sjusthowitstarted.Ihadnoideawhatwasgoingonthefirsttimeweworkedtogether.Soitwasveryexciting.SheimmediatelyfoldedmeintoworkthatshehadalreadyinstigatedwithWendyPerron,RisaJaroslow,andReganFrye.Ijuststartedcomingtotherehearsals.LaterIfoundouttheydidn’tknowwhoIwasorwhyIwascomingtotherehearsals!

Sothere’sthiskindofmysteryaspeoplecomeinandoutofSara’swork.OvertheyearsIthinkitreallyshows.Forexample,inthemostrecentfour-hourpiecethatIhadthewonderfulprivilegeofwatching,youcanseethisincrediblecycleofpeoplecomingintocontactandflowingintothework.Ithasawonderfulgenerositytoitandusuallythere’sawillingnessoneveryone’sparttobeinastateofknowingandnotknowingwhat’sgoingon.

sara rudner: In1975BarbaraDilley,whowasknownasBarbaraLloydatthattime,hadlefttheMerceCunninghamcompanyandwashelpingorganizeadance-basedprojectwithamannamedLarryFagan.Itwashisfirstseason,andtheyapproachedseveralpeopleaboutcomingandworkingatthechurchatthattime.Idon’tknowhowmanyofyouarefamiliarwiththatvenue:SaintMark’sChurchintheBowery.Whenwefirstwentin,acceptinganinvitation,thereweresetstationarypews,aredlinoleumfloor,andabigcross.BarbaraaskedmewhatIwantedtodo.IsaidIwanttodanceforsevenhours,eighthours,andwenegotiatedthisdowntofive.Itwasabouthowpeopleinotherpartsoftheworldsawadancein


performance,thatitwasanongoingevent.Audiencescame,andtheyslept,andtheyate.AndalotofitstemmedfromhavingheardaboutwhathappensinBali,andotherplaces,frommyfriendRussellDumas.2

wendy rogers: Firstofall,whenyouproposedit,Iwasthrilled!BecauseIwasatthatage,anditwaspartofthattimealsojusttosay,“Wecandoit!Let’sdoit!Let’sdanceforfivehours!”Itwasthephysicalexcitementofthatchallengeanddoingtheworkthatwouldbebehindit.Italsomeantwewouldhavetorehearsealot,andthatwasgreatbecausewereallylikedtorehearse.IrememberSaraspecificallysaying,“Well,Idon’tknowifIwanttochoreograph.”AndIsaid,“Whatdoyoumeanyoudon’twanttochoreograph?Youmeanthere’snotgoingtobechoreography?”Ijustrememberhavingthismoment.AndthenSarasaid,“Ijustwantpeopletomaketheirownbeginningsandendings.Theycancomeinwhentheywanttoandleavewhentheyfindtheirownending,andwe’rejustgoingtodance.We’regoingtodowhatwedoandtheaudiencecandecidewhattodoaboutit.”

Itwasn’tthatwedidn’tcareabouttheaudience.Wecaredaboutthemagreatdeal.Wecaredaboutthemsomuchwedidn’twanttoforcethemtowaitfortheendingoranything.Theycouldjusthavetheirendingwhenevertheywanted.

Theprojectinvolvedaconstantofferingofdancetoeachotherandtotheaudience.Anditleteveryonefindanindividualrelationshiptoit.

sara rudner: Thisdancewasabouttherealityofwhatdancersdo.Imean,howmanyhoursdoweputinbeforeanybodyeverseeswhatwedo?Sowe’realwaysdancing,whetherthere’sanaudienceornot.Andoncethereisanaudience,somethingelsewillhappen.Butthisiswhatwedo.Thisisamomenttoreflectuponarealityabouteachoneofuswhoexperiencesthis.It’susuallycurtainup,make-upon,there’sfiveminutes,andthenyou’reoffandthenyou’vefinished.Sothiswasanefforttobreakthatcycle.Itwaskindofgrueling,ifIremembercorrectly.Weworkedallspring.

wendy rogers: Firstofall,wemadeallthematerial,lotsandlotsofmaterial.

sara rudner: Aboutanhourandahalfworthofmaterial.

wendy rogers: Veryprecisematerial.

2ThereferencehereistosomeperformancetraditionsontheislandofBaliinIndonesia(and,indeed,elsewhereinIndonesiaandaroundtheworld)thatinvolvemembersofacommunitythroughoutthenight.Performersenacttalesthroughthemediaofmusicanddance,drama,orpuppetry,whileyoungandoldcomeandgo,engagingwiththeactionandthestory.


sara rudner: Reallydemandingmaterial.Andsomeofthematerialconsistedonlyofstreamsofmovementthatwedidtogetherinakindofunison.

wendy rogers: Iremembertherunning.Wastherunning30minutes?

sara rudner: Itwascloseto30minutes.

wendy rogers: Itwasawholesectionofrunning.And,althoughIhaddonealotofmovementinmyhistory—withoutcounts,comingfromakindofunusualbackgroundwherefromtheageofnineIwasimprovisingandcollaborating,IhadneverdonesomethingasrigorousaswhatweweredoingwithSara,wheretherewouldn’tbeanycounts[inthis“Running”section].Yet,itwasstillverypreciseandverycomplex.Thattookalotofgrouptimetodealwiththesubjectivityoftime.Wehadtocomeintorehearsalandbeabletofindthesamepatternsoftime—asagroup—thatwasn’tbasedonapulseorabeat.

sara rudner: Ithinktherhythmicimpulseismoreimportantthansettingupastructurebeforehand.Ithinkwediditallrhythmically.Idon’tthinkwediditincounts.

wendy rogers: Sectionsweworkedonwere“Running,”“Walking,”and“BrainDamage.”

sara rudner: Explain“BrainDamage.”

wendy rogers: Itwaswherewewereputtingtogetherdifferentphrasesinimpossibleways.IthadtodowithSararampingupwhatweweresupposedtobedoinguntilitwasjustabsolutelyimpossibletobeabletodoit.Sowhatyougotwasaperformanceofthestrangestphysicalmanifestationsofsomeonewho’sreallypracticedalongtimeandstillcan’tdoit.

sara rudner: Idon’tremembertheexactthing,butitmighthavebeenlikeaseven-countlegphraseandanarmphrasethatwentoveritinaboutnineor11counts.Thedancerswouldhavetokeeponrepeatingsothecoordinationchangedateveryrepeatofthecycle.That’swhywecalledit“BrainDamage,”becauseitwasveryhardtoknow.Itwasalongphraseandinvolvedgoingacrossthespaceandthenhoppingback,sothedirectionswerealsohard.Thearmsdidn’trelate—theyweren’tmadeonthelegs.Sotherefore,wehadtheseglitches.Wendywasgoodatit.

wendy rogers: Oh,yes,WendyPerron.There’ssomethingabouthermind;youcantellWendyPerron,okay,13,10,4,19,andshe’lljustkeepaddinginherhead.


sara rudner: DoyouknowthatWendyPerronisnoweditorofDance Magazine?She’sachoreographer,writer,andperformer.She’sremarkable.Shewasoneoftheoriginalfour:twoWendys,aSara,andaRisa.

wendy rogers: Yes,RisaJaroslow.Anotherreallywonderfulsectionofmaterialwasthe“OnetoSeventeen,SeventeentoOne.”Itwasanaccumulation—accumulatingupandthende-accumulatingbackdown.Idon’tknowifthat’saword,de-accumulating,butthemainthingaboutitwasthatyouneverpassedthroughcenter.Yourheadwasneveronstraight.Andyouhadtogofromonekindofan“off”toadifferentkindofan“off”andyoumovedverysmoothlyupanddownfromthefloorbutyourheadalwayshadacircuitouspathanditwouldmakeussickwhenwefirstlearnedit.Thenitbecamereallysoothingbecauseyoulearnedthisotherwaytoorientyourselfanditbecamereallysatisfyingtodo.Thentherewerethecircles.

sara rudner: Circles,runningincircles.Thisactually,inthe1999versionofthispiece,hadsomeinfluencesfromRussellDumas.Therunningincircleswas…

wendy rogers: Veryrhythmical,andwejustranincircles.Butagain,itwasoneofthosesituationsofrememberingmany,many,manyverysimilarbutdifferentvariations.

Lisa Kraus: Doyouwanttoshowusany?

wendy rogers: Well,wedon’thaveanythingfrom1975.Althoughvideofolksdidcome,itwasthe‘70s,andtheyjusttookpicturesofourfeetandoursides,youknow.Idon’tknowwhattheyweredoing.

sara rudner: Butfivehours,theygotnothing!3

wendy rogers: Fivehoursandonlybodyparts.

wendy rogers: Thenotionofdocumentationwasn’tpartofthatmoment.

ButwedohavealittleglimpseofaduetthatSaraandImadein’77.

3WendyPerron,RisaJaroslow,andWendyRogersdidatwo-hourversioninOberlin,OH,onOctober17,1975(seeAppendixC).WendyRogersiscurrentlyusingthedocumentationofthatadaptationasshere-workssomeofthedancingforyetanotheriteration.

WendyRogers,Dancing-on-View,St.MarksChurch,NewYork,1975.BackdropbyRobertKushner(seewww.robertkushnerstudio.com).Photo©JohanElbers(1975),courtesySaraRudner.



Backgroundphoto:WendyRogersandSaraRudner,November Duets,MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,1977.PhotobyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesyWendyRogers.ArchivalmaterialfromthecollectionofWendyRogers.SeeAppendicesDandE.


sara rudner: ThenameofitwasNovember Duets.

wendy rogers: WithlivepianobyajazzmusiciannamedPeggyStern.(SeeAppendixF.)

sara rudner: Thisdancehassomeoftheelementsthatweweretalkingaboutintheotherpieces.Sothat’stheclosestwecangetto1975.

[Viewing of dance on tape takes place; applause follows]

wendy rogers: Thatmaterialwasabout25minuteslong,andhadalltheseduetsinit.It’snotinsignificantthatthejazzmusicwewereworkingwithreallyfeltlikeaparallelworld;ithadtherigorofbeinginsidethematerialandbeingabletogetinsidetheotherpersonsothatyoucouldmoveinandoutofstructure.Weenjoyedembracingdifferentkindsofmovementsensibilities.Werehearsed,though,toLauraNyro’sGonna Take a Miracle,tostayfreshforthelivejazz.

And,althoughthatwasn’tafive-hourdance,ithasthesensibilitythatwewereworkingonatthattime.

sara rudner: Wewereonlytwoyearsawayfromourfive-hourbodies.

Audience member: Didyouhaveasenseofthemusic,though,beforeyouperformedthework?

sara rudner: No.Peggycametoseerehearsal.Andsheandweworkedtogetheronwhatthemusicwouldbe.Themusicwasn’trecorded.

wendy rogers: Shewasalsoimprovisingduringperformance.

Sarajustfoldsnewchallengesandpeopleintoourprocess.Ofcoursetherearealwayschallenges.IrememberwehadtopickPeggySternupwithacabbecausesheplayeduntilreallylateatnightintheclubs,andwerehearsedintheday.Weweresittingtheregoing,“Where’sPeggy?Where’sPeggy?”So,finally,whatwehadtodowasgogetherbeforeourrehearsals.

sara rudner: Literallywakeherup.

wendy rogers: “Getthecoffee.Comeon…let’sgotorehearsal.”

Justtoflipbackabit,forthefive-hourpiece,youknow,thatcrucifixdidn’tworkforeitherSaraormeasaset[referringtothealtaratSt.Mark’schurch].IwasreallygoodfriendswithRobertKushner.Hewasatthattimepartofthathugewaveofdecorativepainters.Andwe


Allphotos:WendyRogersandSaraRudner,November Duets,MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,1977.PhotosbyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesyWendyRogers.ArchivalmaterialcourtesyWendyRogers.SeeAppendixGforhandwrittenandtypedcuesheet,aswellasadditionalmaterialsonNovember Duets.


said,“Oh,Bob!Bob,canyoupaintussomethingtocoverthiswholewall?”Hecamebackwiththesepanelsoffabricthathehadpaintedinpomegranatesbecausehe’djustbeentoPersia,andwasinspiredbythepomegranatemotif.Andsomeflowers,too?

sara rudner: No,theywereallpomegranates.Andhealsointroducedthefan,thestandingfan.

wendy rogers: Right.

sara rudner: Thefanwouldblowhispaintingssothatwhenwewoulddothingsbehindthemyoucouldseepartsofourbodies.

wendy rogers: Partofthescoreissomeoneturningonthefanhighsothatthepaintingsreallyflap,andyoucanseealot.Ortheymayturnitonlowsotheywavejustabit,andyoucanseehardlyanything.

Therewasnobackstagereally.Thefive-hourdancewassuchatransformationalexperience—inthedoingofit.Imean,weworkedandworkedandworkedonit.Itwasonlyperformedonce,ever.

sara rudner: Thatwastheotherdealabouthavingspentalifetime—seeminglyalifetimeaftertenyears—ofgoingfromtowntotownwithadancecompany[TwylaTharp]andperformingrepertoire:ThisseemedtobesomethingIwouldnevertry.WhywouldIleaveacompanyandasituationthatIhadbasicallydevotedsomuchofmyenergyandtimeandbodyactivityto,ineveryway?WhywouldIwanttoleavesomethingthatIfeltpartofmaking?AndultimatelytheanswerformewasthatthereweresomethingsIwantedtotrythatIknewIwouldneverbeabletotryinthatconstruct.IfeltatthetimethatWendyandIwerestartingtoworktogetherthatIalmosthadtojustifytoTwylawhyIwasnotgoingtocontinueinthecompany.Thatwasveryhard.AndIhaditinmymind,Ifeltwhatitwas;andasIwenton,Iwasabletoarticulateitmorestrongly.

LisatalkedaboutWendydisbandinghercompanystructure.It’salmostuncannythatIfoundmyselfmakingasimilardecisiontohersaroundthesametime,maybealittleearlier.4Itwasinresponsetothatparadigmsetupbymanagersandthewholesysteminwhichdanceisdistributedorproducedinthiscountry.

4Indeed,Sara’sdecisiontodisbandhercompanydidinfluenceWendy’schoicetomakethesamemovein1990.

Fansblowingthebackdrop,Dancing-on-View,St.MarksChurch,NewYork,1975.BackdropbyRobertKushner.Photo©JohanElbers(1975),courtesySaraRudner.



Backgroundimage:WendyRogersandSaraRudner,November Duets,MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,1977.PhotobyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesyWendyRogers.DancersontheCable TV Worldcoverfromlefttoright:ShanaMenaker,WendyRogers,RisaJaroslow,RobinDavis,andDeniBanks(sitting).ArchivalmaterialfromthecollectionofWendyRogers.SeeAppendixH.


wendy rogers: Ithinkweweremakingthedecisionatthesametimetoarticulatetherealizationthatwhatwelovedwasthecreativeprocess,andthatwecertainlywantedanaudiencetosharethatexperiencewithus.Whatwedidn’twantwasallthepackaging.

sara rudner: Yes,thepackagingwashardforus.It’snothardforeverybody,andit’svalidifthat’sthewayyouconceiveofyourworkandwhatyourambitionsare.Ourambitionsweredifferent.SowhatIdidafterIuntangledmyselfwastogobacktoworkwithTwylaforanotherfewyears.Ifinallygottobeadancer,understandingallthepressuresthatachoreographerhastogothrough—allofthem.Anditwas,youknow,like,“MayIcrawlandkissyourfeet?”WhatIcametounderstandfromalltheworkthatIhaddonewithWendywasthatthebarhadbeenraisedintermsofmyownexpectationofinterpersonalrelationshipswiththedancersIwasworkingwithinacompany—ofwhatIwantedtohappenonstage,whetheritwasinimprovisedearlyjazzpiecesoftheTharprepertoireorinherfullychoreographedpieces.

wendy rogers: Ithinkthatit’shardforsomepeoplewhoweren’tinonthisgeneration,ourgeneration,tounderstandthattherewasalotofteachingthatwasverydictatorialandsometimescruel.Eventhoseofuswhohadteachersormentorswegreatlyadmiredandlearnedalotfromexperiencedhowtheycouldalsobemean.Maybenotmeanallthetime,justsomeofthetime.That’sevenworse.Ifit’sallthetime,youcancountonit.

Myfirstteacher,RuthHatfield,wasanamazinganduniquespirit,andshetaughtdancethatwasfullycreativeineveryway,includingtherelationshipsthatshehadwithherstudents.Neveranaudition,youknow.IhadbeendancingwithhersinceIwasalittlegirl.Therewasthisincredible,veryCaliforniakindofspirit,abeliefthateveryonehadcreativity.InmyfirstyearswithRutheverythingwedidwemadeupalltogether:Ididyourmove,youdidmymove.Weimprovised.

LaterIwenttotheseotherplaceswhere—whoa!—itwasaverydifferentwayofrelatingtopeople.SuddenlyIwasinanenvironmentwhereitseemedthatthetraditionconsistedofonepersonwhosaid:Here’sthemovement.Thisisyourphrase.Theseareyourcounts.Thisisyourpart.

Forvariousreasonsit’salsohardwhenyou’rejustcomingofageasanadult,asIwas,tosuddenlyrealizethatthereareallthesewomen,alongwithacoupleofguysinclass,andsomeofthesestudentsreallycan’tdance.Nonetheless,thewomanwhoisthemostbeautifulwiththehighestarchesandtheblondesthairgetstodothemostdancing.Whatisthat?Well,whateveritwas,itdidn’tincludeme.

Sotherewerethesediscoveriesthatwerebrutal,yettypicalinourdancinglives.ButIalsotookincredibleclassesfromMargaretJenkins,MerceCunningham,andViolaFarber.Oh,


mygoodness,incredibleclasses!Iwasneverinanyofher[ViolaFarber’s]choreography.Butyoudidn’tneedtobe.Justgotoclass,andthereitallwas,amostwonderful,musicalworld.

Weallsharedtheseincredibleexperienceswithteachers.Ineachsituation,IfeltlikeIgotintheriverofwhatthatparticularkinestheticworldwas.

SothislongstoryisjusttosaythatpartofmyexcitementinworkingwithSarawasthatfirstofall,sheisnevermean,whichIreallyappreciate.Ididn’thavetoworryaboutthat.Butalso,therelationshipitselfissoconnectedtothework.Forthefirsttime,Ididn’thavetofigureout,oh,whataretheSarathings?OrtotrytodotheSarathings.SheseemedtolikewhateverIthrewinthere.She’dsay,“Oh,let’susethat.”Manypeoplewereveryseriousbackthen,veryserious,andweweren’t.

sara rudner: Wewerenotparticularists.

wendy rogers: Weoftenevendidsillythingsinourrehearsalsandtheninsistedonputtingsillythingsinthepiecesaswell.Idon’trememberbeingverysillywithotherchoreographers.It’sjustgreattoworkwithsomeonewhoisopentowhateverwecouldcomeupwith.ItwasthatopennessthatwassomovingwhenIsawwhatshewasdoinginthelastfour-hourdance.Stillthere—youknow,embracingwhateverpeoplearebringingintotheroomandmakingitavailable.

sara rudner: Itwaspartofthetimeaswell.Therewerealotofexperiments.TheGrandUnionwashappening.Ultimately,Ithinkourpersonalitiesfitsowellbecausetherewassomethingwewerebothlongingfor,andfindingourwayofdoing.GrandUnionwasahighlyimprovisationalgroupthatwasbornoutofYvonneRainer’sdancecompanyandthenincludedotherpeopleshehadcollaboratedwithovertheyears.5Alltheseinfluenceswerefloatingaroundus.Ialwayshadafantasy,especiallysincetheearly‘70s:Californiawasmyfantasyworld.AndseveraldancerswhohaddancedwithTwylaintheearlydayshaddesertedforSanFrancisco.Iwasverycurious.SowhenSanFranciscoandtheWestCoastcametome,throughWendy,Iwasjustoverjoyed.

wendy rogers: TheWestCoasthaditsownthinggoingon.Alotofthathistorygoterasedbecausewedidn’thavehistorians,wedidn’thaveinfrastructure.TherewerepeoplenooneontheEastCoasthadeverheardof,likeJennyHunter,forexample.WethinkofalotoftheexperimentsasJudson,butshewasdoingtheseincrediblethingsinCalifornia:task-basedevents,and

5TheNewYork-basedGrandUniondancegrouppracticedandperformedcontactimprovisationintheearly1970s.Anumberofpeopleinfluentialinpostmoderndancecircleswereinvolvedwiththisgroup.


improvisations.IrememberaclassItookfromheroneevening.Allwedidwasmoveourspinesfortwohours.

TherewereradicalexplorationsthatweregoingonontheWestCoast,includingimprovisation,buttheyjusthadadifferentsortofspintothemandadifferentflavor.Andtherewastrafficbackandforth.

sara rudner: TwylaTharpcamefromCalifornia.

wendy rogers: FromRialto.6RightnearwhereIamnow[Riverside,California].

OneofthethingsthathappensovertheyearsisthatwhenSaraandIgetbacktogether,wejustgoinastudio,andwedosomework.Sometimessomethinghappenswiththatstuff,andsometimesitdoesn’t.

6AccordingtoTharp’sbiographyontheAcademyofAchievementwebsite(www.achievement.org),shewasborninPortland,Indiana,andmovedwithherfamilytoRialtowhenshewasstillveryyoung.

PhotoproofsofWendyRogersandSaraRudner,November Duets,MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,1977.PhotosbyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesyWendyRogers.



Wejusttapbackin.Andinthatspirit,let’slookatMagma.SarawasvisitingrelativesinSacramento,closeenoughtomethatwejustwentintothestudioanddecidedtomakesomedancing.Andthesearejustourowngoofylittletapes.Sometimeswekeptthesetapesandwouldusethemtodevelopothermaterial,andsometimestheywentnowhere.Thiswasoneofthenowheretapes.

Audience member: Whenwasthis?

wendy rogers: 1989.

Partofthereasonwe’reshowingthisisbecauseit’sanexampleofhowwebegincreating.Thisisraw,butgettingtothephysicalityofsomething.Thenwestartnamingit.

What’sinterestingisthatwenormallydon’tlookatourvideos.Westorethemcarefully,andwedon’tlookatthem.It’sbeenatriptoorganizethispresentation.

Here’saclipfromaperformancecalledConversationsatDanspace.

sara rudner: In1990.

wendy rogers: Thisiswheretherawmaterialstartsgettingarticulatedandshapedandyoucanstillseethemovementbasethatwewereworkingfrom.Andsowe’lljustclickthroughthisstuff.Feelfreetointerrupt.Wecanbeveryirreverenthere.Thisisanotheroneofthetapesfromourprivatecollection:1995,BreezyHill,upstateNewYork.

wendy rogers: It’sasimilarkindofrawinitialinvestigation.Ithinkyou’llseethatthoughwedidn’tnecessarilyturnsomeofthesethingsintoaperformance,it’ssimplypartofaprocessofreconnecting,andthewholeexperiencemightsurfacelater.

sara rudner: Sointhebeginningofworkingtogetherwehadtheluxuryofspendinglonghoursinthestudio,spendingtimewiththemovement.

wendy rogers: [watching Sara dance on the videotape]OneofthethingsthatalwaysamazedmeaboutSarawasherconnectiontothefloor—verydifferentfromwhatIlearnedintechniqueclassesandsomethingthathasinfluencedmemywholelifesince.

sara rudner: HowpersonalshallIget?Iwasgoingthroughadivorce.[observing an arm gesture with a swirling wrist]Andwithmanyofthesemovementsandimages,well,wewerejustcleaningoutthetoilet.


wendy rogers: Therearealwaystheselittlestoriesthatcomeinundertheformalworkthatdon’tnecessarilyneedtobecommunicated,butexistaspartofthedifferentexperiencesthatwe’rehavingwhilewe’redancing.Wehopetheygivealittlemoresenseoftheconnectionbetweenartandlifethatexistsinourwork.

sara rudner: Wemadesomethingfromexperiencesthatwehadbothsharedandourdancesarepartofajournalofourrelationship.

wendy rogers: What’sinterestingiswegonexttothe1999rehearsal[onvideo],andyouseethebeginningofourreturntothefive-hourdance.And,youknow,bothSaraandIhadbeenthroughamilliondifferentdancesanddanceworldsandsensibilitiesbythetimeweweredoingthisin1999.Somanythingshadhappenedinthedanceworld,differentwaysofapproachingperformanceand—oh,myGod!—thetechniques,theinteractionofsomanybodyknowledgesandtechniques…

sara rudner: Contactimprovisation.

wendy rogers: AndAlexanderandFeldenkraistechniques:Allthesedifferentwaysofexperiencingthebodyhavereallychangedthedanceworldincludingtheless-enforcedseparationofdifferentkindsofdanceformsfromeachother.Sotogobacktothefive-hourformat,todoafour-hourdance,seemedreallyexciting.

sara rudner: Whatcouldwemakeagainwiththefourofus?Becausewewentbacktotheoriginalquarteteventhoughtherewere20performersin1999,allwomen,fromalldifferenttimesinmylife.Thecentralquartetiswhatyou’llseenow.

wendy rogers: Somethingreallydifferenthappenedinthe1999piecebecauseSarabroughtinallthegenerationsofdancersshehadbeenworkingwithandmadefourhourswithsomeofthe—whatdowecallourselves?

sara rudner: OriginalQuartet.

wendy rogers: OriginalQuartet.SotheOriginalQuartetdidsomematerialreminiscentofwhatwehaddone,andwehaddifferentwaysofparticipatingoverthefourhours.ButwewereinthisseaofgorgeouswomendancersfromallthesedifferentpiecesanderasandworkingwithSarawasextremelymoving.Ihadn’tmetmanyofthem,andshehadworkedwiththemseparatelyatdifferenttimesandoccasions.Irememberthefirsttimeweallgottogetherinthesameroom—italmostbroughtmetotears.Itwaswildstuff.Itgavemesuchasenseofphysicalhistoryandrelationships.Weusuallykeepgoing,ontothenextproject.Soitwas


thefirsttimeI’deverdonesomethingquitelikethis,wherewejustre-immersedourselves,andwehadsuchasenseofalargerscaleofthingsintime.

sara rudner: Itwasahugegroupofpeople.Manyofthemwerenolongerfull-timedancersorweren’tperformingfulltime.Therewasasocialworker.Therewasanacupuncturist.Weallcametogetherandrehearsedwhenwecould.Thismeantthatdifferentrehearsalsweregoingonatthesametimeinthestudiotocatchpeopleup.Iwouldworkwithsomepeopleinthatsmallstudioonasolooraduet,whilegrouppieceswerebeingrehearsed.Itwasaveryactivesetting.

wendy rogers: Sara,Ithinkitwouldbegreatifyouwouldtalkaboutthatinitialprojectthatwestartedinthefive-hourdance—thewaysthattheprocessgottothisbusinessofexposingourdancinglives.

sara rudner: Youmeanintheperformance?

wendy rogers: Yes.

sara rudner: [viewing video sample]Thisis1999atSaintMark’sChurch.BobKushnerpaintedanotherbackdropforusandthisisthatquartetinperformance.There’sstillthatsamesensethatthere’snobackstage;it’sallvisible.

Lisa Kraus: Istheremusicinthefivehours?

sara rudner: Notintheoriginalversion.Itwastotallyinsilence.Butinthisversionwehadtwomusicians,percussionists.AndonMay13[2008],Mother’sDay,inNewYorkCity,therewereagainpercussionistsandrecordingsthatIinheritedfrommymotherfromtheforties,whichwereplayedonaportable78recordplayer.Youcanseepacingissodifferentnow.It’sarealrefugetoreturntoadifferentexpectationofhowmuch,howfast,andhowmanytimes.Whenyouknowaperformanceisgoingtolastforfourhours,youjustsortofletgoofacertainkindofexpectation,asaperformer,Ithink,andasamemberoftheaudience.

wendy rogers: Somepeoplestayforfourhours.Somepeoplestayforfivehours.Thefirsttimewedidit,theystayedallfivehours.Wedidn’texpectthattohappen.

sara rudner: IwaskindofappalledwhenIheardsomeonehadstayedforfourhours.Who’dwanttowatchallthisforthatlong?

wendy rogers: There’sbothimprovisedandsetmaterialandmanydifferentduetsandrelationships;sothatanygroupissortofthesumofalltherelationships,thedifferent,distinctrelationshipswithinthegroup.It’sallaboutthesehighlyarticulatedindividualsworkingasagroupbutwithoutbecominguniform,evenwhensharingasensibilityorsharinganideaorevensharing


amovement.Iguessthatreallyattractsmetothisworkbecauseitfeelslikeanimportantpoliticalidea,thattherereallycanbecomplex,highlyarticulatedrelationshipsallco-existing.

Lisa Kraus: Howdidyouknowwhenfourhourswere gone?

sara rudner: Oh,everythingwastimed.Wehadatimekeeper.You’llseeawomaninthecornerwayupthere—SonaliPrasad—whowasastudentofmyfriendSheilaRaj.ShecamefromIndiatoNewYork,andSheilasaid,“GolookupSara.”HerperformingexperiencewaswithOdissi-styledance,andwhatweweredoingwasveryforeigntoher.7Butshesaid,“CanIhelpinsomeway?”AndIsaid,“Well....”Shehadastopwatch.“Justtimeeverything,keepnotes,andI’lltellyouwhentostopandstart.”AndsostructuringandorganizingthispiecewasSonalioverhereandmesaying,“Okay.Everybodydothis,this,this,”andshewroteeverythingdown.Itwasalltimed.

wendy rogers: Itwasalltimed.Therewereimprovisations,buttherewasalwaysathrough-line.Soperhapsthepersonwhodidthesoloalwaysenteredatthesametime.Evenifsomethingtookalittlelonger,thatwasokay.Thenitjustoverlappedinaslightlydifferentway.

sara rudner: WhenIthinkaboutwhatwasgoingoninNewYorkatthetimethatwewereworking,Ifeelhowmuchdancehastotallyexploded.It’squiteextraordinary.

wendy rogers: What’sreallyexcitingtomeisthatwe’regettingtoamuchmoreinterestingplacewhere

7OdissiisoneformofIndianclassicaldance.ItsoriginslieinthestateofOrissaonIndia’seastcoast.

SelectionfromtheNewYorkDanceFestivalprogram,September12and13,1976,courtesyWendyRogers.SeeAppendixI.



contemporarydanceisaglobalpreoccupation.Contemporarycomesfromeverywhere.Itwasafalseideathatthiswastraditionalandthatwascontemporary.It’sbeenreallystimulatingtometowork[inthedancedepartmentatUniversityofCalifornia,Riverside]withscholarcolleagueswhointerrogateconceptsandtheoriesandpoliticalunderstandingsorquestionsinrelationshiptodance.Ihavebeenveryexcitedmywholelifeaboutanydancing.Butnow,there’smoredimensiontoit,moreunderstandingaboutwhatdancingmightcontain,forexample,thatforthisgroupofpeoplethedancemaymeantheirdeedtothislandorforthisgroupofpeoplethedancingdefinessomethingelse.

Sothedancestudiesfieldhasexploded,andthenumberofbooksontheshelves,andthedifferentpointsofviewthattheyoffergiveusallsortsofquestionstoask.IhavehugequestionsthatIamaskingnowthatIdidn’tbeforeeventhoughthoseyearsinNewYork—well,youknow—theywerefilledwithalotofdancing!

Ithinkearlyontherewassomeideaofmasterythatdrovemeasadancer:IwanttolearntodothisorIwanttolearntodothatorIwanttounderstandthis,orIwanttofigurethisout.Somehowmyunderstandingofthatisquitedifferentnow.ThemoreIdanceorthemoreIthinkaboutthings,themoreconfusedIget.Butitdoesn’tstopmefromdoingprojects—it’sjustprettyconfusing.Ifeelthatit’spartofcontemporarylifenowthatwedon’thavetheluxuryofakindofculturalmono-vision.Atanygivenmomentsomanythingsmakeyouawareofmultiplewaysofperceivingwhatitisyouthinkyou’redoingversuswhatyouareactuallydoing.Ithinkthat’soneoftheinterestingthingsaboutthistimebecauseperceptionissuchajuicyplaceforchoreography,isn’tit?

sara rudner: Andalsootherpeople’sresponsetowhatyou’redoing.

wendy rogers: Yes!

sara rudner: IthinkwhatWendy’stalkingaboutisthatthefieldisgettingwiderwithmoreinformationcomingtoourattention.Imean,eachindividualhastomakeadecisionaboutwhatpathtostartfollowing.Itdoesn’tmeanthatit’sgoingtobestraight.Itmightbranchoffinlotsofways.Ifindthetrickiestthingaboutitistoremaincalmenoughtojustsay,“Yes,whatI’mdoingisinterestingtome.”Ifyoustartworryingaboutwhetherit’sgoingtobeacceptedhereorproducedthere,willIgetthisgrant,willIduhduhduhduhduhduhduh,thenwe’reworkingagainstourselvesinacertainway.

BeingwithWendyneverfailstorekindlesomething.BeforecomingtoPhiladelphiaIwasinmyofficeandIjustneededtohearhervoice.OnceIhearherspeakingIcanbecomecenteredonwhatwearegoingtodotogether.Thefirsttimewewereworkingtogetheronthis,Wendyshowedmethedancingthatshewasmaking.AndIwent,Oh,yes!Irecognize


that!Isaid,“That’sWendy!”IcanfeelWendy.Ifeelprecision,Ifeelthenonsequitursthatmakesense.Thesearethethingsthathavealwaysdrawnmetoherwork.

wendy rogers: Thereisn’tanyotherrelationshiplikethisone.Ithinkpartofitiswejustlovedancing.WhenIgetbackwithSara,IfeellikeI’mintouchwithmyveryfirstexperiencesofmovement,likewhenI’dseesomethinghappeningandI’dwanttodoit,too.I’dwanttojoinin.Iwanttoedit,Iwanttoshapeit.AndsoIguessthat’swhyItendtoworkwithpeople,fromalldifferentkindsofdancingandmovementbackgrounds—somehowI’vefiguredoutthattheyreallyliketomoveandorganizetheirmovementandopenthemselvesuptofiguringoutmovement.Alotofwhatthisfeelingisaboutishowamazingitiswhenagroupcreatesitsownhistorythroughdanceanddancing.Youspendtimewithpeopleandcreatehistoryandcarryitforward.

Whenwefirstgottogethertotalkaboutthispresentation—andit’ssomethingthathasn’tcomeupinthissessiontonightbutthatwassovividtomeintheplanning—isthatbothofusaredealingwiththeissueofpartsfailure.

sara rudner: Partsfailure.[laughter]

wendy rogers: Asyouknow,itisgreathavingmadealotofdances,andIsupposewegetwiser.Butthepartsstarttofail.OneofthethingsthatIappreciateishavingthespirittoask,“Wherearewenow?”or“Whatcanhappennow?”That’ssuchafascinatingplacetobe,andifyoukeepbeingdisciplined—beingreallyhonestaboutwhatthenowis—it’samazinghowthehistoryandthefutureflowinandoutofthenow.

sara rudner: WhatwasthatquestionsomeoneaskedmeonMay13?Whatwerethegoodolddays?

wendy rogers: Yes,whatwerethegoodolddays?

sara rudner: Idon’tknow.Iwaswhirlingarounddoingsomekindofcrazystuff.AndIsaid,“Thesearethegoodolddays.Thisisit,rightnow.”

Audience member: Iwaswonderingifyoucouldanswerwhatitisthatyouloveaboutmovementandwhy?

sara rudner: Itisawayofexperiencinglife.It’sakindofanenergythatcomesoutofyou.There’ssomethingaboutsomeofus,thewaythingsareputtogether,thewaythey’rearticulated:ourtendons,ourbrains,ourligaments,armmuscles,andsomethingaboutourenergiesthatdefineseventhekindofdancingwedoandwhatwe’regoingtotendtowardsdoinginourwork.

IwasontheroadtoworkingfortheSocialSecurityAdministration.[laughter]YouknowwhatImean?Igotoutofcollege.Myfathersaid,“Youhavetotakethecivilserviceexam.”AndI


Allphotos:Dancing May’s Dances.MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,NewYork,1976.DancersinphotosincludeDeniBank,RisaJaroslow,FrancescaBartoccini,WendyRogers,ShanaMenaker,SaraRudner,andRobinDavis.Photo©JohanElbers(1976),courtesySaraRudner.Archivalmaterial:WendyRogers’handwrittennotesforDancing May’s Dances,courtesyWendyRogers.SeeAppendixJforthehandwrittenandtypednotes,aswellasadditionalmaterialsonDancing May’s Dances.


wentandItookit.IgotthejobbeforeIevengraduated.AndIsaidtomyparents,“Justgivemefiveyears.Givemeacoupleofyearstofigureoutmylife.MaybeI’lldosomethingelse…”

Ialwayswantedtodance.AndIfoundthatultimatelyTwylausedtolookatmeandsay,“Well,ifshewasn’tdancingandmakingdances,she’dbeacriminal.She’dbeamurderer.”Andsoinpartthiswasawayoffindingmywayintheworldinapersonallyenhancingandphysicallyhealthyway.Iusethewordhealthinsomeoverallsense.Itenabledmetobringpartsofmyselftogetherthatarestillcomingtogether.

wendy rogers: I’vediscoveredthatmy10yearprojectwasactuallymycomingtoanunderstandingthat,ratherthanmakingpiecesinacompany,whatIreallywantedwastousedanceasawaytolocatemyself,tosortoutthewhoandwhatandwhyofmyself.IrealizedmakingdanceswithotherpeoplewashowIsituatedmyselfintheworld.AndIsaid,“Whycan’tthatactivitybethevehicle?”The10yearswasjusttimeandaconstantprocessofusingdancingasawaytobeintheworld.SoIthinkformemovinghasalwaysbeenhowIknowwheretheheckIamorwhatI’mdoing.That’showIfigureitout.

sara rudner: WhenIwasdancingyearsago,Iusedtoaskmyself,“HowmanyhoursdidIdancetoday?”I’dgo,“one,two,three,four?”NowallIcanthinkaboutishowmuchIwanttodivestmyself.Andthatisamaturingexperience.AndI’mveryhappythatI’velivedlongenoughandmedicalsciencehasenabledmetogoonanddocertainthingsthatImightnothave...let’ssaythingsmygrandmothercouldn’tdobecauseshewascrippledbythesamethingthat,youknow,struckme.

ButeverytimeIwanttoinvestigatesomething,Ihavetohavesomephysicalexperienceofit,eithergeneratingtheactionorexperiencingwhatthedancersaredoing.Sothat’swhyItrytodoallthosethings—tokeepmybodyactivesoitdoesn’tbecomeremovedfrommoving.I’mnotaconceptualist.IsawaYouTubevideoofTwylaTharp.Youhavetocheckthisout.There’ssomeguywhoisinterviewingher.Andshemakeshimdance.It’sgreat.Andshefinallysays,“Youknowyourmindisn’tgoingtoworkifyourbody’snotworking.”

WhenIseepeopledancingandthey’rerealizingwhotheyare,it’slikethebestgiftintheworld.

wendy rogers: Fromthekindofworkwe’vedone,we’vedevelopedtechniqueswhereourphysicalitycanbesharedandlaunched,andwedon’thavetocontrolthedancers.Ihavequestionsaboutperformancerightnow—formyselfandwhatthatmightbe.WhatIreallylikeinmyworkwithdancersistofindwaystobothgivethemsomething,andthenfinddifferentavenuesforwhat


decisionsImakeandwhatdecisionsIletthemmakeortheirbodiesmake.Ilovelaunchingsomethingandthenseeingwherethedancerstakeitwithallthethingsthattheyknow.

sara rudner: There’sadesire—allofushaveitindifferentdegreesprobably—adesireforcommunity,adesiretohaveanintegratedlife.Ifyou’vebeenadancer,youknowhowquicklythatcanchange,howseparateyoufeelyouhavetobe.Oh,Ihavetogetupatthistimeanddothisanddothis.AndIhavetodomypliésbeforeIdothis.It’saverycontrolled,veryregimentedlifeinmanyways.That’sbrokenapartalittlebitlately.

IamasocialanimalandIcan’tevengointothestudiobymyselftomakeasolo.Ihavetotakealotofpeopleinwithme.It’strue.It’sjustthatIhavetoapologizeandsay,“Please,wouldyouhelpme?Ijustneedpeopletobeherewithme.”Andthen,atsomepoint,Ihavetosay,“Well,okay.Ihavetodothisonmyownnow.”Ihavetoclosethedoor,andsay,okay,thisisasolo.

wendy rogers: Lifehasledtoanunderstandingthatultimatelyyoucan’tcontrolwhatexperiencepeoplearegoingtohave.However,thatdoesn’tmeanitdoesn’tmatter.Itsimplymeansthatyoushapethings,youofferthings,andthenyouinvitetheexperience.Evenifpeoplereallyjusthatewhatyoudo,youhavetobeavailableforthefullrangeofpotentialconnectionordisconnectthatyou’regoingtofeelwithagroupofpeoplewhenyoumakeyouroffering.

This conversation transcribed and edited March 2011–April 2012 by Toni Shapiro-Phim.

WendyRogersandSaraRudner(lefttoright),November Duets,MerceCunninghamDanceStudio,1977.PhotobyFrancescaBartoccini,courtesyWendyRogers.



Biography of Sara Rudner

Biography of Lisa Kraus

Biographies of Francesca Bartoccini and Johan Elbers, photographers

Biography of Wendy Rogers

SaraRudneriscurrentlytheDirectorofDanceatSarahLawrenceCollege.From1965–85,sheparticipatedinthedevelopmentandperformanceofTwylaTharp’smoderndancerepertory.ShemadedancesforasmallgroupofdancersknownastheSaraRudnerPerformanceEnsemble,andhaspursuedherinterestsinchoreography,improvisation,andperformingwithcolleaguesWendyRogers,DanaReitz,MikhailBaryshnikov,RussellDumas,andChristopherJanney.RudnerreceivedtheDance Magazineawardin2009,aBessiein1984,andgrantsfromtheNationalEndowmentfortheArts,theJohnSimonGuggenheimMemorialFoundation,andtheNewYorkStateCouncilontheArts.ShehasbeenadjunctfacultyatNewYorkUniversity’sTischSchooloftheArts,ateachingfellowatBenningtonCollege,andguestfacultyatTheJuilliardSchool.RudnerholdsanMFAfromBenningtonCollegeandaBAfromBarnardCollege.

WendyRogersisaprofessorofdanceattheUniversityofCalifornia,Riverside.Shehaschoreographedandperformedcontemporarydancesforover40years.TheWendyRogersDanceCompany(1977–90),andsubsequent10yearprojectsMAKESHIFT dancingandWENDY ROGERS dancing,tourednationallyandinternationally.RogershasreceivedgrantsandfellowshipsfromtheFoundationforContemporaryArts,theIrvineFellowshipsinDance,theJohnSimonGuggenheimFoundation,andtheNationalEndowmentfortheArts,aswellasa2009FulbrightFellowshipforworkinMalaysia.CurrentlySaraRudnerandRogersarerevisitingtheircollaborativeworkdatingfromthe‘70s,withthe‘running’fromDancing-on-View(1975)asapointofdeparture.RogersholdsanMAfromStanfordUniversitySchoolofEducation,andhasstudiedwithJennyHunter,DavidWood,MargaretJenkins,MerceCunningham,CarolynBrown,andViolaFarber,amongothers.

LisaKraus’careerhasincludedperforming(TrishaBrownDanceCompanyandherowncompany),teaching(SwarthmoreCollege,NaropaUniversity,theEuropeanDanceDevelopmentCenter),presenting(asCoordinatorofBrynMawrCollegePerformingArtsSeries),andwriting(Dance Magazine,Philadelphia Inquirer,herblog“WritingMyDancingLife”).SheeditsthINKingDANCE.net,anonlinejournal,andwasa2010NEAFellowinDanceCriticism.HerchoreographyhasbeenpresentedbyvenuesincludingTheKitchen,Danspace,PhiladelphiaDanceProjects,SushiinSanDiego,London’sDanceUmbrella,andSydney’sDanceExchange.ShehasbeenawardedChoreographers’FellowshipsandprojectsupportfromtheNationalEndowmentfortheArts,theNewYorkFoundationfortheArts,ThePewCenterforArts&HeritagethroughDanceAdvance,andthePennsylvaniaCouncilontheArts.

Asayoungactor/dancerFrancescaBartocciniworkedwithSaraRudnerandWendyRogersduringthe70’sinNewYorkCity.Shebeganherphotographycareertakingphotosofindividualdancerswhichledtophotographingmanydancersanddancecompanies includingTheJoffreyBallet,DanWagonerandCompany,andAmericanBalletTheatre,tonameafew.LatershemovedtoCaliforniaandstartedworkinginthefilmindustrywhereshebecameaproductiondesigner. Bartoccinileftthatindustryafter25yearstodesignandremodelhomes—stillwithaneyetomovement,spaceandlight.

JohanElbers’photographiccreditsincludeTheMetropolitanOpera,AmericanBalletTheatre,NewYorkCityBallet,DanceTheatreofHarlem,TheKirovBallet,TheBolshoiBallet,TheParisOperaBalletaswellasmoderndancecompaniesMerceCunninghamDanceCompany,AlvinAileyAmericanDanceTheater,PaulTaylorDanceCompany,MarthaGrahamDanceCompany,TrishaBrownDanceCompanyandothers.HehasalsophotographedtheaterandmusicartistsRobertWilson,RichardForeman,LeeBreuerandJazzmusiciansOrnetteColeman,DizzyGillespieandBettyCarter.

dance Advance|ThePewCenterforArts&Heritage|1608WalnutStreet,18thFloor|Philadelphia,PA19103phone:267.350.4970|fax:267.350.4998|www.pcah.us/dance|[email protected]&Heritage.©2012DanceAdvance

ForbiographicalandartisticinformationonRobertKushner,visitwww.robertkushnerstudio.com


Capturing the tone, celebrating the workAppendicesAppendixA:page 27 PostcardforDancing-on-ViewfeaturingartworkbyRobertKushner.

AppendixB:page 28 Theatre Crafts MagazinecoverfeaturingtheSaraRudnerPerformanceensemble,March/April1980.

AppendixC:page 29 Programforthetwo-hourversionofDancing-on-ViewperformedatOberlinCollegein1975.

AppendixD:page 30 ScoreandprogramforDancing- on-View,June,1975.

AppendixE:page 34 ProgramforNovember DuetsperformedwithPeggySternattheMerceCunninghamStudio,March1977.

AppendixF:page 35 PostcardfortheperformanceofNovember DuetswithPeggySternattheMerceCunninghamStudio,

March1977.

AppendixG:page 36 WendyRogers’handwrittencuesheetforNovember Duets.page 38 TypedtranscriptionofWendyRogers’cuesheetforNovember Duets.page 40 DanceUmbrellaprogramforasharedeveningwithRachelLampertandDancers,SaraRudnerwith

WendyRogers,andSentaDriver,February1977.page 44 FlyerforDanceUmbrella’sSpringSeason,1977.

AppendixH:page 45 ArticleinCable TV World,May18–21,1976aboutdanceinNewYorkCityfeaturingtheSaraRudner

PerformanceEnsemble.

AppendixI:page 49 NewYorkDanceFestivalProgram,Summer1976.

AppendixJ:page 53 WendyRogers’handwrittennotesforDancing May’s Dances,1976.page 55 TypedtranscriptionofWendyRogers’notesforDancing May’s Dances.page 56 PostcardforDancing May’s DancesattheMerceCunninghamStudio,May1976.page 57 ProgramforDancing May’s DancesattheMerceCunninghamStudio,May1976.


AppendiX A:

PostcardforDancing-on-ViewfeaturingartworkbyRobertKushner.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX b:

Theatre Crafts MagazinecoverfeaturingtheSaraRudnerPerformanceensemble,March/April1980.Lefttoright:SaraRudner,ShanaMenaker,KristineLindahl,LindaCohen,AmySpencer,andVickyShick.CoverphotobyNathanielTileston.CourtesySaraRudner.


AppendiX c:

Programforthetwo-hourversionofDancing-on-ViewperformedatOberlinCollegein1975.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX d:

ScoreandprogramforDancing-on-View,June1975.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX d, continued:

ScoreandprogramforDancing-on-View,June1975,continued.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX e:

ProgramforNovember DuetsperformedwithPeggySternattheMerceCunninghamStudio,March1977.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX f:

PostcardfortheperformanceofNovember DuetswithPeggySternattheMerceCunninghamStudio,March1977.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX g:

WendyRogers’handwrittencuesheetforNovember Duets.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX g, continued:

WendyRogers’handwrittencuesheetforNovember Duets,page2.CourtesyWendyRogers.



WendyRogers’transcribedcuesheetforNovember Duets.CourtesyWendyRogers.TranscribedbyJosieSmith.

NOVEMBER DUETS/MOLLY’S SUITE CUE SHEET Peggy’s Perfection W dancers on ct and end of PP #1 S Joins – her 1 rock is 1 , MUSIC begins on 5 or 6 rock end: S & W on heels in corner , MUSIC ends nearly the same time transition : S does a fragment #2 Peggy counts tempo S begins W joins on 4th twist , MUSIC begins after S 4th twist Open ending W stops transition: W does fragment, S echoes , MUSIC continues #3 S does pre-chicken waves, , MUSIC phases into it W joins 1 chicken wave S & W end on floor, lying, , MUSIC ends afterwards transition: no fragments #4 Peggy starts ----------------------- BACH MUSIC Here’s Johnny: S does 1 W does 2, S-3, W-4, S-5, W-6, S & W ---- 7, 8, 9, 10 ---- S & W end in still position ,MUSIC changes back to Here’s Johnny S & W get chairs #5 Peggy starts ------------------------------------- DARN THAT DREAM W begins after 8, 1 & S & W end music ends a few beats later W starts second part – Does the movement once S joins-------------------------------------------- MUSIC begins S & W sit MUSIC ends



WendyRogers’transcribedcuesheetforNovember Duets,page2.CourtesyWendyRogers.TranscribedbyJosieSmith.

CUE SHEET CONT. #6 S & W ins & outs SILENCE end after slow motion #7 Peggy starts ------------------------------------ TOOTSIE S & W end-------------------------------------- music ends



DanceUmbrellaprogramforasharedeveningwithRachelLampertandDancers,SaraRudnerwithWendyRogers,andSentaDriver,February1977.CourtesyWendyRogers.



DanceUmbrellaprogramforasharedeveningwithRachelLampertandDancers,SaraRudnerwithWendyRogers,andSentaDriver,February1977,continued.CourtesyWendyRogers.



FlyerforDanceUmbrella’sSpringSeason,1977.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX h:

ArticleinCable TV World(May18–21,197aboutdanceinNewYorkCity,featuringtheSaraRudnerPerformanceEnsemble,alsopicturedonthecover.Fromlefttoright:ShanaMenaker,WendyRogers,RisaJaroslow,RobinDavis,andDeniBanks(sitting).CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX h, continued:

ArticleinCable TV World(May18–21,1976aboutdanceinNewYorkCity,featuringtheSaraRudnerPerformanceEnsemble,continued.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX i:

NewYorkDanceFestivalProgram,Summer1976.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX i, continued:

NewYorkDanceFestivalProgram,Summer1976,continued.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX J:

WendyRogers’handwrittennotesforDancing May’s Dances,1976.CourtesyWendyRogers.


AppendiX J, continued:

WendyRogers’handwrittennotesforDancing May’s Dances,1976,page2.CourtesyWendyRogers.



WendyRogers’transcribednotesforDancing May’s Dances,1976.CourtesyWendyRogers.TranscribedbyJosieSmith.

Friday June 18, 1976 Notes–Sara’s piece “Dancing May’s Dances” My Part Sara starts end up as We walk out and form a line — I’m ↑ second in from stage rt – Robin is on my left. Sara is on my right after she finishes her introduction which travels past each of us acknowledging some part of our dance material. Sara backs into place facing stage left – I paw the ground with my feet – doing the “ready go” from the trio – I rush diagonally out stop – go back join Robin in a jump with head over the top rt left : step step lunge turning to rt (travelling stage left all the while) 2 of Shana’s left shoulder touch (with rt. hand) rt shoulder – hand behind back palm out & 3 step turn – into place in a clump behind Deni – Shana downstage rt. , Risa upstage left close – 6 shoulder shakes forward as back curves sequentially throw head back arch, then forward swing rt (look upstage) swing to left – left hand on chin rt hand on left elbow – FREEZE Wait for Deni’s cue – (leg crossed stop) Start moving stage rt – moderate tempo 3 cts paw ground – face downstage left diagonal 4 cts Shana touch thing, 4 cts paw & run, 4 cts throw rt hand across & up left – rt foot off (“Tracks”) stop rt turn in plié with arms up and lean. 2 cts paw 2 4cts Tracks – touch left, rt hand out – watch Shana – she starts to walk – walk backwards to a place slightly downstage and st. rt of Robin (but basically over on st. left) do arms from trio until Risa says GO. Ct fast 123, 223, 323 slow down to super slow by 623 count one shape rt hip out, ct 2 hands far & cross each other – left knee bent turned in, foot flexed & up, at three hands to side rt as in offer for Chinese partners. Then whisper YA TA TA TA – looking up, hunching shoulders, clench hands softly, elbows bent wait for Francesca to finish windmill arms : [cue] three circles and a punch. Deni’s path upstage – face left – lean downstage with body & arms overhead – reach left leg upstage 3 touches step behind with rt foot – back turn stutter left foot once put weight on it & hop – left arm in ward – step it to turn left 3 steps – reverse left arm out head to ceiling end chop left arm down. Plié walk fwd. doing sections of Risa’s face fingers – freeze – until she’s done – then to low plié head down turn until others catch up & start to jump. Red dog phrase fast, full, in place then turn & do slowly thru everyone. Hands signal – pawing – walk – fall. Up Robins’s [lean] 2 times walk full up, lean 2 times freeze for Robin’s solo – then start phrase small at first each lean change fake jump 2 Shanas, sit down shake into pose – up one track backwards 6 cts – 3 cts of Risa’s face – exit stage left with Deni’s.

# Sitting Trio -4 of us do slow follow: Sara then Shana lead alphabet with heads – once small slowish, once 1 2 3 4 5

big 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10, 1 0 1 0 1 0 10 1 hold small again Animals: st. rt – gorilla, camel, raccoon, bison – [______] throw at F’s feet she leaps over Break – I catch breath – begin next chaos



PostcardforDancing May’s DancesattheMerceCunninghamStudio,May1976.CourtesyWendyRogers.



ProgramforDancing May’s DancesattheMerceCunninghamStudio,May1976.CourtesyWendyRogers.

QUESTIONS OF PRACTICE Capturing the tone, celebrating the ...1 Twyla Tharp founded her dance...

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Transcript of QUESTIONS OF PRACTICE Capturing the tone, celebrating the ...1 Twyla Tharp founded her dance...