on August the 9th, 1956. Sorry, the 8th August 1981. IIIn ......geskiedenis ~ onguns te bewys van...

81 Isak Daniel de Vries

on August the 9th, 1956. Sorry, the 8th August 1981. IIIn

future years for as long as history text books are written by

men and women concerned with white history you will find that

nothing happened on July the 16th, 1981~ I think they meant

some other date. IIBoth dates are part of South Africa's hidden

history, the story of resistence to racial laws imposed to re

gulate and control the lives of the majority of South Africans.

The pass laws have presented one of the most despised facets on ,

those laws, August the 9th, 1956 was the day when the women

marched~ Now confining ourselves to what I have read to you Ie

what is conveyed there and indeed conveyed to many thousands

of people is the idea that August the 9th like June the 16th,

are - belong to the history of black resistence to an unhappy

state of affairs.. Do you want me to repeat that? --- Ja mis

kien weI want u het iets bygevoeg wat - .

What I am saying is that the average reader reading this

will get the impression that all the celebration - I am sorry,

that August the 9th and June the 16th are days which belong to

the story of black resistence? I am almost quoting from this.

Ja, soos u dit stel, ek het nie die berig nou volledig ge- 2C

lees nie maar dit kan gesien word as bloot deel van swart weer

stand soos u dit nou gestel het, ja. Ek bedoel wat 9 Augustus

1956 gebeur het en hoef nie noodwendig en of ten minste het

beslis nie op daai datum enige iets rewolusie te doen gehad

nie. SOO$ ek s~ dit kan nou agterna weI misbruik word maar so

~ beskrywing stel dit as u dit soos u dit aan my bring, stel

dit net in historiese beskrywende vorm.

And it will help re-enforce in the mind of an average

person in Soweto, Kagiso, Cape Town, wherever it is, the idea

that these are proper commemoration s , th ere i s nothing wrong 30

with that? Ja maar ek bedoel dit het ek reg in die begin

ges~/ ...


gese hulle is basies daar wat herdenk kan word, dit hoef nie

noodwendig iets met rewolusie dan gaan dit afhang wat daardie

dag gebeur.

The federation itself we know is a legal organization,

at all times? --- 0 ja.

Let me put it this way; no organization known as the

Federation of South African Women has been banned? --- Nie wat

ek van weet nie, dit is nou deel van die geskiedenis maar dit

is hoe ek stem met u saam, sover ek dit het, die bronne wat ek

het . 10

tt And Mr. de Vries irrespect of political organization s

•

every nation is proud of what it conceived to have been it's

political achievements whether we are talking about the French

who celebrate Bustdee Day or we are talking about the celebra

tion of June the 16th as Soweto, it belongs to the same politi

cal culture and that is people in the national - belong to a

nationalist movement with the sense of patriotic look back

and they celebrate? --- Ja, kyk mnr. Soggot dit is amper soos

ons vanoggend die klein meningverskil gehad het op ~ stadium

dat , soos ek se sulke historiese gebeurtenisse is aan my voor 20

te hou vir rewolusionere kommentaar is eintlik hoe sodanige

geskiedenis ~ onguns te bewys van dit, die gebeurtenis self,

gebeurtenisse voor 1961 in ieder geval het plaasgevind in die

nie rewolusionere klimaat. Die punt bly net dat dit kan weI

agterna gebruik word om rewolusie te bevorder.

Yes, well I am merely trying to put - I am merely putting

these things to you in order to indicate to you and have your

comment on the actual climate in which these commemorations are

being held, a climate which at least to a certain extent is

governed oy th e press. Th at i s why I am putti ng t hese things 30

to you. --- Ja kyk, die ding is ek weet nou nie van al die feitlike/ .••

•

•


feitlike gegewens nie maar dit is sekerlik nie net die pers wat

hieroor skryf nie, ek bedoel die ANC skryf self oor die gebeur

tenisse en sy boeke vanuit sy perspektief en vir hulle het dit

rewolusion~re implikasies. Dan as ek dit so mag stel kyk mis-

kien beantwoord hierdie vraag en meer direk is, hierdie dae is

nie amptelik verbode dae soos ~ mens amptelike vakansie dae

het nie. Dit is nie amptelik verbode verklaar as herdenkings

dae nie. So van die regeringskant dink ek word dit toegegee

dat dit mag gehou word. Die vraag is nou goed as daar nou oor

~ lang tyd seker, spesifieke feite gegewe altyd by hierdie ge-

beurtenisse plaasvind en rewolusion~re steun word altyd gemon

ster. Nou ja, dan mag die dag dalk verbode verklaar word maar

dit is nie nou die geval nie en ek weet nie daarvan of dit die

geval sal word nie.

Here is an article from the Sowetan for example which

again makes the same point, it is the commemoration, this

would be T, sir. It makes the same point and that is that it

is the commemoration, the 25th anniversary of a women's cam-

paign. Can you pass it on? It is EXHIBIT T. You are invited

Ie I

to read whatever you like but may I draw your attention to the 2(

first two paragraphs? The first?

Two paragraphs. Yes.

IIBlack students should unite and fight the cruel evil

system of apartheid in South Africa. 1I This was said by one of

the speakers at the 25th anniversary of the women's anti pass

campaign in Atteridge Hall yesterday. The meeting was attended

by about a hundred youths. Now what I am putting is that the

way these articles come through, they refer to that day, the

grand march really as a women's accomplishment, they do not -

there is no real attachment, there is no reference rather . to 30

the federation or the ANC? --- Ja, sal u my net - Edelagbare,

my / .•..

•


my oog het ~ paar ander paragrawe hier gevang. As u my net die

geleentheid wil gee wil ek net ~ half minuut g10 ek sal genoeg

wees, vlugtig net verder kyk. Edelagbare, as ek nou - gits ek

week niem miskien het mnr. 50ggot - net weer sy vraag vra as hy

nie omgee nie, laat ek net kyk of ek miskien eers sy vraag direk

kan antwoord maar dan wil ek tog net iets verder s~. Kan u net

dalk weer u vraag herhaal asseblief?

What is happening in.this article and the other articles,

is that the event is being referred to as a women's historical

achievement without reference to whether the fed., the women's 10

federation or the league, th~ ANC women's league was involved.

--- Ja, u meen die word nie verwys in die federasie nie en ANC

"women' s league" nie.

What comes through is it just refers to as a piece of

history for which people can be proud of. --- Ja kyk, ek weet

nie, Edelagbare, hierdie - ons praat nou van dieselfde ding;

"students should unite and fight," is this the one?

That is correct. Edelagbare, ek wil dit so stel met my

vinnige deurlees, wys hierdie berig weI daarop dat vreedsame

protes nooit gewerk het nie maar hier word nou nie ~ direkte 20

oproep gedoen dat geweld, gewelddadige verandering die antwoord

is nie maar ek dink die artikel self het my iets meer om die

lyf as net by historiese beskrywing van gebeure.

No, I was only talking about the treatment of women day.

Obviously this man is making propoganda for his own pupose? --

Ja, laat ek so stel "women's day" word nie, Edelagbare, in hier

die dokument as sal ek maar s@ ~ rewolusion~re gebeurtenis uit

gelig nie. Daar word weI ander sake aangeraak gepraat van Mau

5y Tung en "Cultural revolution" maar nie in die kontext van

"women's day" nie maar nou goed, ek weet nie of hierdie goed 30

nou ges~ is op'n "women's day," dan soos ek s~ die ander in-

houd/ ...•

•


houd van die dokument moes ~ mens weI van kennis neem seker.

Would you please have a look at page 3, that is EXHIBIT U,

this is a document held in 1982 and comes from the Sowetan. In

fact this is the statement which is before -t he newspaper which

is before the Court. If you just look at that, it will be

EXHIBIT U. Oh I am sorry, it is EXHIBIT G in the original form

but it might be easier, sir, to handle the photostat. Yes, my

learned friend has made I suggest a good suggestion if it could

be made GI.

BY THE COURT: Yes, this exhibit will then be EXHIBIT Gl.

CROSS-EXAMINATION:(cont.) Now the same point here, it is re

ferred to really as a historic event, so that anyone reading

this would convey - would get the idea that really it is just

another commemoration whether it is like Dingaan's Day or June

the 21st or Bustdee Day, that something which belongs? --- As

ek tog net hier kan byvoeg, ek stem met u basies saam dat dit

is weereens, Edelagbare, ~ berig wat histories beskryf wat

eintlik nog sal pla~svind maar dit is in ~ beskrywende vorm,

lees ons net self. Hier is nie in hierdie paragraaf wat s~

dit is wat ek net nou al wo~ bygevoeg het by die ander berig

nie maar; IIThis year's feeling is the role of women toward

democracy.1I So ek meen daar is blykbaar ook iets voor skrift

liks wat voorgestel is wat sal plaasvind en of dit nou so plaas-

gevind het is ~ vraag van feitelike omstandighede. Ek wil net

dit tog byvoeg, Edelagbare, dat mnr. Soggot het net nou ook in

terme van al die ander dokumente oor die swak teologie, die punt

gemaak en ek het met hom saamgestem dat IIliberationll of bevryd

ing nie noodwending dui op geweldadige bevryding nie maar soos

11

2(

ek se amptelik, amptelik maar dit is ek dink weer in die globale

terme te stel, i s Suid - Afrika natuurlik sedert 1961 met die ANC 3

se stigting van sy militere vleuel in ~ rewolusionere klimaat. funksioneer/ ..•

•


funsioneer, vind al die dinge plaas binne die rewolusionere

klimaat sodat wanneer mense dan nou praat van IIliberationll en

so aan soos ek se ', dui dit beslis nie noodwendig op gewapende

stryd nie maar dit is partykeer moeilik om die mense se bedoel

ings te begryp wanneer hulle die woord gebruik. Ek dink u stem

met my saam dit is moeilik om te begryp ook mense in die rewolu-

sionere klimaat waarna ons begin, as hulle praat van "liberation ll

en of hulle daarby geweld bedoel 9f nie. Soos ek se as ons voor

1961 was geen vraag daaromtrent nie, dit kon nie na geweld ver

wys het nie want ons was in ~ rewolusionere situasie nie maar II

ek bedoel dit vat niks van wat u aan my gevra het en ek gese

het nie maar tog net die punt maak dat u weet dat hierdie dinge

vind plaas in ~ rewolusionere klimaat.

What you are saying if I understand you correctly, that

there is a revolutionary climate in South Africa? --- Ja omdat

daar ~ rewolusionere bewegings bestaan en ek vir hierdie weet

nie weereens gehaaldelik aangewees het dat hulle se deel van

die rewolusionere of geweldadige proses is een van die eerste

dinge is om mense te mobiliseer. Soos ek se daardie mobili-

serings aksie wat dalk'n gebeurtenis was soos "women1s league" 20

val dalk nie onder die globale stelling van die ANC nie, dit

is feite en omstandighede wat sal bepaal.

When you say it is a revolutionary climate, do you mean

it is a revolutionary climate because there revolutionary

organizations like the ANC? But you are not suggesting that

the mood if I may borrow from the language and documents, mood

of the masses is revolutionary? --- Nee, nee-nee, nee dit het ek

beslis nie gese nie.

No, I just wanted clarity. --- Ja.

Thank you. Now again this report here indi~ates that a 30

celebration and that various organizatiqns are in fact going to / ..•••

•


to celebrate and it is a mixture of organization. There is a

seminar by th~ federation? - - - Ja-nee, ek meen ek aanvaar die

punt, dit is verskeie organisasies wat so deelgeneem het, ja.

So that anyone reading this would think "Well perhaps I

should go along and listen to it and see what they have got to

say.1I It would be quite natural? --- Nee, ek stem saam, ja.

And in fact I have a whole pile of cuttings of this kind,

I take it you do not dispute for one moment that throughout the

country there have been this sort, there has been this sort of

publicity given to the commemoration? Ja kyk, ek me en ek I(

lees nou nie al die koerante dwardeur die land nie maar ek aan

vaar dat dit so is, ek het geen probleem om dit te aanvaar as u

dit so stel nie.

And while I am still on the subject of commemorations, I

have here a copy of the Sowetan, Friday March the 20th, 1981

which refers to "Heroes Day Commemoration," that is the reference

tc? --- Gewoonlik Desembermaand, 16 Desember . Oh well from an

ANC prospective, yes is what I mean.

With respect it is March the 21st? --- Het u nou gese

"Heroes Day?'"

Heroes Day it is referred to, refers to March the 21st.

Wasg so so bietjie, ek het die ANC perspektief, ek kan dit

gou net vir u naslaan of ens bymekaar verby praat.

The ANC have got their own heroes day which they have

nominated apprently? --- Ja maar dit is waarop ek u geantwoord

het, ek wil nou net gou kyk of ek reg geantwoord het.

I think that is i n December? --- Ja weI as u saamstem dan

is dit soos ek dit het.

But you do know the heroes day of the PAC? It is March

2(

the 21st? No, that would be because it was the Sharpeville 31

happening, ja.

That/ ...

88 lsak Daniel de Vries

That will be U. --- Mr. Soggot just for interesting sake,

March 21st word deur die ANC byvoorbeeld weer ook gehou as "In-

ternational Day for the elimination of racism" maar dit is net

vir interresantheid maar u sien Desember 16 is Heroes Day, dit

is te bevestig wat ek se vir die ANC.

Well there is no doubt that when they used March the 21st

they talk about Sharpeville? --- Ja, I agree from the PAC

point but here the ANC themselves have commemorative days in

South Africa, March 21st is they say International DAy for the

elimination of racism.

They do not say Sharpeville? --- They do not say Sharpe

ville, no.

It is the same story? --- Ja.

This document here - have you got it in front of you? ---

It is written March 20?

That is correct, Services for heroes day, if you just

glance through it because why I wanted to put to you - well let

me just read the first paragraph; "At sunrise tomorrow a group

of youths will clean the Sharpeville Graveyard where the victims

of the March 21st shooting are buried while thousands prepare to

mourn the dead of Heroes Days commemoration services throughout

the country." Then it just goes on to say that "Youths belong

to AZANU" that is a black conscio.usness organization not so?

--- Yes, 1 think you are better than I and I think there was

Court case earlier in this year involving this organization

was there not? Ja, as 1 have it it was a black consciousness

organization, yes.

And then it talks about AZAPO at the bottom of the first

column? --- Yes.

lC

Then it talks again about AZAPO in the next column and 30 then it talks about a student organization called Coasaz? ---

J a / ••••

89 lsak Daniel de Vries

Ja .

And someone from the executive of the committee of ten,

that is as it were a sort of governing cou~cil or leadership

council in Soweto containing fairly respective people, Miss

Amanda Kwadi whose name I think we have come across in this

Court~ executive member of the Women's Federation and so it

goes on and that really establishes the pattern of the way in

which a spectrum of political organizations are concerned with

the commemoration? --- Ja, nee ek meen dit is by dieselfde . vraag dat die sitting van die dag in sigself hoort rewolusion~re 1

implikasies noodwendig te h~ nie, dit hang af wat daar plaas

vi nd .

And here I have another one, it is only one reference I

want to refer to it so perhaps it does not have to go in unless

my learned friend wants to. No, I am sorry, I withdraw that.

I in fact thought it was something else. Do you know that the

- do you know who first celebrated Women's Day? --- Nee, ek

weet regtig nie.

Well I am advised by the experts on our side that in fact

it was organized by women in various organizations throughout 2C

the country? If you put it that way I will accept it. As I

say I do not know.

May I just put this to you? I am afraid I have not even

got a copy at all of this, again I apologise . Now this would

be D? Hoe ver is ons? I made a mistake. So all right what is

it? U. I understand, sir, it will be U.

BY THE COURT: Is it the next exhibit you are seeking?

MR. SOGGOT: That is so, sir.

BY 1HE COURT: That will be EXHIBIT U.

CROSS-EXAMINATION:(cont.) I am afraid we have only one copy, s03C

can I just read it to you? We can all understand it. It refers .

to the Cape Times, Wednesday August the 7th, 1957 and to / .. . sir / ....


to the Cape Times, Wednesday, August the 7th, 1757 and I take it

sir, that my learned friend will concede the publication of

these papers~ so that we do not have to go through the labor-

ious problem of dragging various editors to Court. "A multi

racial," the heading "August the 7th, 1957" that is the next

year, "A mult racial meeting will be held women's organizations

in the Western Cape on Friday to protest against the enforcement

of the pass laws on native women. The meeting will be held at

such a place." I would like you to listen please to this; "It

will be sponsored by six women's organizations~ the Cape Town 10

Branch of the National Council of Women," Do you know of that

Mr. d~ Vries? I am told it was a body of rather dignified

ladies of different races? --- i have already said that is part

of political history and I am not going in to all that detail.

The Cape Western Region. Sorry, the Cape Town Branch of

the National Council of Women, the Cape Western Region of the

AFrican National Congress Women's league, the Anglican Church

Mother's Union, the Society of Friends (The Quakers), the Cape

Western Region of the Black Sash and the Cape Region of the

Federation of South African Women. I mean it is quite obvious 2C

from that that women f r om all sorts of organizations felt about

it and celebrated it? --- Ja, klaar gesien - die punt is soos ek

s@ op daardie datum he t ons ons nog nie in ~ rewolusion@re

klimaat begin nie want dit was nog voor die verbode verklaring "

van die ANC en aie ander organisasies. So ek meen dit sal nie

oor ~ politieke gebeurtenis .....

lnvolving all sorts of organizations? --- Nee.

And we know that the women's league was but one of the

groups? --- Ja.

Now the next point, well I think this makes the same pOint, 3

this refers to the liberal party but who make the concession

that/ ..••

•


that all sorts of people have commemorated it, so that f can

then get on to the next pOint. I wonder if this might be a

suitable breaking of points.

- COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH-

ON RESUMING:

ISAK DANIEL DE VRIES: (still under oath)

CROSS-EXAMINATION:(cont.) Dankie, Ede1agbare. Mr. de Vries I

was still asking you questions about the commemoration instead

of burdening the record with the further articles and newspaper

clippings, we have got a list of the various groups who have 11

celebrated in the 80 ' s, the Women's Day., and they include

the Liberal Party, Wits University students, ~he Natal Indian

Congress, Durban High School Girls, the Congress of South

African students, the Black Student SOCiety, the Johannesburg

Indian Welfare Association, the Canadian Federation of Women

(support), the United Womenls organization, the DomestiC

Worker's Organization~ University of Cape Tewn Women's Movement,

SAWA which I think stands for the· South African Worker's Union

- Allied Worker's Union? --- Allied Workers Union, yes.

Soweto Civic Association, the Port Elizabeth Women's

Organization, AZASO, Nusas, Transvaal Indian Congress, The

Student Moderate Alliance and of course the Federation of South

African Women. Now I take it that you do not dispute that these

organizations which represent a vast spectrum, you do not dis

pute that they in fact partiCipated as our cuttings indicate in

the commemoration? No, I do not dispute that.

Mr. de Vries while we are talking about women and again

this is a broad fact which I imagine we all know about but I

think I should put it to you, would be correct to say that in

2C

the 70lS there wa s a s ignificant flowering, ~ro wth of develop- 30

ment in women's movements, feminist movements? Ja, ek meen

aangesien/ ...

•


aangesien geen sodanige bewegings onder my aandag gekom het dat

hulle iets met ~ rewolusie direk te make sou h@ nie, aanvaar ek

u woord daarvoor daar was so baie, ek meen ek het hulle nie be

studeer nie want ek het nie rede gehad om hulle te bestudeer

n i e •

No-no, I am not actually asking you about your study, I

am asking you about facts which I want to suggest most readers

of newspapers are aware of, namely that feminism in Europe,

America, South Africa is the thing? --- Ja, ek meen is koerant-

berigte neem ek ook in ~ dag in, ja. Soos ek s@ ek meen was 1

- daar was soort van vroue aktiwiteit in die sewentiger jare,

dit mag so wees, ek betwis dit nie~

And that 1975/1985 was the declared the decade of women,

do you know of that? --- Nee~ ek weet nie daarvan nie.

And do you know that in Grahamstown in 1975 there was a

convention, an international convention of women with hundreds

of delegates discussing womenls affairs? Do you know about

that? --- Dit mag wees dat ek dit in die koerante dit opgetel

het, ja maar ek meen ek bestudeer dit nie.

Do you know that in 1976 an organization called the United

Women l s Organization was formed in the Transkei? --- Die naam

klink vir my bekend, ek het daarvan gelees maar weereens ek het

dit nie bestudeer nie as ~ rewolusion@re organisasie nie.

And in 1980 a different organization with precisely the

same name was formed in Cape Town? --- Ja, ek weet nie daarvan

nie maar as u se dit is so dan is dit seker so.

I am advised that what I put to you - my last question to

you was slightly erroneous and that is that the United Womenls

Organization in Cape Town was formed in 1981, I take it your

answer is the same? --- Ja, nee ek me en ek betwis dit nie. 30

And also that in the 70lS a Black Womenls Federation was

formed / ..•

•

•


formed and later banned in 1977? Ja-nee, ek weet nie maar

as u so se dan is dit seker so.

Do you know that the Nkata has got women's brigade?

Ja, die weet ek van maar weereens bestudeer hulle nie uit ~

rewolusionere oogpunt nie.

Yes. Nkata is a movement with a considerable following

I believe something like a million or more? --- So neem ek ook

kennis, ja.

I have got a document here which is a rather jaded photo

~tat of the Sunday Times of November the 6th, 1977, it is under 10

the title "Women Power Zulu Style," referring to what these

women said and I take it I do not need to say that the Sunday

Times has got one of the widest circulations in the country?

They were not interested in the talk that Nkata was not banned

because it was not doing anything. Nkata had the same object

as the banned organizations, namely liberation only Nkata's

strategies differed they said,· and then it goes on to say that

Nkata had as it's leader the head of nearly five million people,

here the organization would ·not be intimidated? --- Five hundred

thousand I suppose?

I think the reference is to five million Zu.lu people? ---

Oh, j a .

No, I suppose that is it. "Here the organization would

not be intimidated. Nkata wanted non racial majority rule

through non violence" and that really sums up what they want is

the same thing that the other organizations want, namely freedom

in the broad terms which we have already gone through? --- Ja,

ek meen soos ek se my definisie van rewolusie is ge weld by be

trokke is al bevryding of "liberation" beteken nie nood wendig

2

geweldadige bevryding ni.e. 30

out the fact 1 have put to you, do seem to suggest that

in / ....

•

•


that in fact there has been over the recent time a great up-

swing in women's own activities? Net wat u aan my voorgehou

het is dit vir my duidelik dat dit so is.

Do you know of an organization called "Kontak" which is

an organization of white ladies? --- Ja, daarvan het ek in die

koerante gelees, ek weet daarvan.

Yes and that is an organization of white ladies who are

interested in making contact with organizations of black ladies?

--- So het ek in die koerante opgetel daarvan weet nog al toe-

vallig ~ bietjie meer.

As far as the Federation itself is concerned, my instruc

tions are that it was never a member of the ANC. of the Congress

Alliance, that it never had a seat on the national consultative

committee? Do you go along with that? --- Ja, ek sal dit nie

betwis nie, wat ek daaroor te s~ het wat in my hoofgetuienis is

is nie in stryd met wat u nou ges~ het nie, nee goed.

And in fact have you studied the constitution of the

Federation as it was then? --- I have put some of it in this

- in my chief evidence, yes but I mean if you want to quote me

something else.-

But have you studied it over and above what you read in

Sishaba? --- Ja, nee dit was in ~ los dokument maar die ding is

al wat ek daar gemaak het was om aan te dui dat soos ek ook op

bladsy 3 aangedui het, die tweede laaste paragraaf, dat wat my

aanbetref die "Federation" se doelwit is soos in die konstitusie

aangetoon, is ook die van die ANC Women1s League se doelwitte

10

20

van aangeleenthede handel waaroor vroue reg deur die w~reld ge

grief voel en opsigself nie eise of doelwitte is wat enige re~

wolusion~re implikasies het nie. So ek meen ek weet nou nie wat

hier verder uit die "Federation" se konstitusie aan my wil voor- 3C

hou nie maar ek beskou dit nie as a rew01usion~re dokument nie.

It / ...

•

•


It is not, no-no, that is clear. --- Ja.

It is the same - it has the same sort of aims that Nkata

and all the rest have got? --- Ja, dit is ook polities, dit is

hoekom ek bladsy 5 weI melding gemaak het van politieke eise

maar in die algemeen is dit meer eise wat net vroue mag raak

in die wereld en in Suid-Afrika.

Yes but in fact all these people make the physical demands,

that is what - ? --- ja, sure.

Mr. de Vries what I want to know is have you actually

stu die d the con s tit uti 0 n 0 f the Fed and w hen I say II Fed" I mea n I (

the South African - ? --- Ja, wat ek weI doen is ek kyk na die

"objects" want dit is waarin ek casies belangstel, toe di.e

organisatoriese strukteer soos wat dit in die konstitusie voor

gekom het, ek praat van dit is ~ lang tyd gelede, ek sien ek

dit vroeg in Maart opgestel, het nie vir opsigself enigsins ge

lyk na iets wat ek as ~ student van rewolusie deuglik sal moet

kennis neem ni~ behalwe ek het toe nou verder in my hoofgetuie

nis soos u nou weet, ook gese oor hoe die ANC weI wys dat daar

or~anisatoriese oorvleueling was met hulle "women's league" en

die "Federation" maar uit die konstitusie self, met die konsti- 2C

tusie self en die "women's charter" byvoorbeeld, die "charter"

het ek begin om hom nie werklik te bestudeer nie want soos u

dit - die dinge is opgestel in die tydperk toe rewolusie in

Suid-Afrika nog nie eers te sprake was nie. So dit kan geen-

sins gesien word as ~ rewolusionere dokument nie opsigself nie.

So you have not studied the women's charter? --- WeI as

u 'n dee 9 1 ike ant woo r d w i 1 he, die h e 1 e II c h art e r II n 0 em?

I think let us put it this way, if I were to say to you

what is in charter, you -? --- Then I will have to read it to

you now because I do no t remember it. You in fact cannot tell me now? --- Ja-nee, ek sal daar

m 0 et / .. . .

30

•


moet aflees van die konstitusie af.

But the point you make and which we agree is that the

charter is the same story of expressing political demand by a

- at that time a legal organization committed to overt methods

of struggle, such as demonstration? --- Nee soos ek se ek het

basies vrede en dit is hoekom ek met die vreedsame protes in

Suid-Afrika ....

And in fact when we talk of the march of the twenty

thousand, we are talking of a demonstration which appears to

be in both legal and peaceful? --- Korrek, so het ek dit ver-l

staan.

If I may - I just want to talk for a moment, question you

very briefly on some of the political names which one hears

about so often and that is Nelson Mandela, Robert Sebukwe,

Walter Sesulo. Nelson Mandela was and is a leader of the ANC?

--- Ja, hy word steeds deur die ANC beskryf as ~ leier alhoewe l

hy nou in di~ gevangenis is, hy was betrokke veral toe hy •..

Yes and he was convicted in the Rivonia trial, we know

all that? Ja.

And Robert Sebukwe was the leader of the PAC? --- Ja.

Who is now deceased? --- Ja, kyk wanneer is hy dood, in

1978 dink ek.

No, I do not thi nk that really matters but his name lives

on and people do talk aboLt him? --- Ja maar hy is as 'n soort

leier van die PAC.

And Sesul0, Walter Sesulo he is one of' the recognized

leaders of the ANC? --- Ja, hY was hier rond in 1954.

Irrespective/ .•.

21

KRUGERSDORP SAAK NR SH 41/2573/83

S E R T I F I K A A T

Ons, die ondergetekendes sertifiseer hiermee dat voor-

afgaande ~ afskrif is tot die beste van ons vermo~ VAN

die oorspronklike verrigtinge meganies opgeneem.

B1adsy 1 tot 49

~

.. 7"::'.2 ~4-::·· , .. 0:. ...... . OORSKRYFSTER: MEV M BREEDT

B1adsy 50 " 96

•

•

97 . I D De Vries .

Irrespective of merits or demerits of the f act, if

one looks around in the world you find that all sorts

of people referred to, for example, Mandela, with

much respect? --- Ja .

I am told that there are streets and suburbs and

parks ' named after Sebukwe, Mandela, Sesoeloe in other

countries . The fact that those countries may be hostile

is not something I am going into in here, but what we

have is in the World Press they treat these people as if

they are historical figures, like Prime Ministers, or 10

Presidents, whatever? Yes, that is correct.

In fact, there was a thing called - a campaign

called the Free Mandela Campaign? Ja .

Which I understand was in fact started by the

editor of the Sunday Post? --- Ek weet van die betrokke

kompanje wat geloods is, ja .

That was the campaign which had amongst its

.supporters, and I give you a list which we have got, so

we do not have to go through a mountain of cuttings,

but the cuttings can always be shown to you.

the David Willis South African Foundation .

"Inka tha , 20

Sorry, it

is by David Willis of the South African Foundation .

The South African Institute of Race Relations, Students

Organisations, NUSAS, member of Parliament, Dr . Alex

Boraigne, a 195 British MP's who supported it if one

can believe the Star, the DIOKONIO, which is a Church

Group, AZAPO, the U K Labour Party, the Transkei National

Assembly, the Natal Indian Congress and evidently,

according to the Post of t h e 27th of June the Lebowa

Government . You do not dispute that people like that - 30

? --- Nee .

98 . I D De Vries .

Without going into the merits or demerits of

their support, news of this kind, whether it is about

Mandela or Mr . Sebukwe, or Mr. SesuTu; to the ordinary

person who will see them as rather fine Black men,

without knowing much more? --- Ja .

These names belong then to household legend? --

Ja, dat hierdie groot Staatsmanne was word wel geskep

vir die bevolking, ja.

I think that is the main issue that I wanted

there, what I would like to in fact now deal with is 10

the documents which are before the court . Apropo of

Sactum, I think you said that they used the phrase that

"an injury to one is an injury to all?" Ja .

Do you know where that slogan originated? Nee,

maar ek dink ek het in die lees van die .- toe ek dit

aan die hof voorgehou het, gese dat dit word gesien as

In International slogan".

Dit is reg? --- "We resolve that this body shall

determintly speak further and protect the interest

of all workers and that its guarding motto should be 20

the universal slogan of working class solidarity~

I take it that you wont dispute it, perhaps you

know, I have got a document here which figures in this

trial as BEWYSSTUK M. 1. It has at the back of it -

I show it to yru here, the title "Wilson Rowntree Boy:::ott

continues, it has supported the boycott, we do not buy

or eat Wilson Rowntree sweets". Then there is certain

words, presumably the same thing and u nderneath that,

"an injury to one is an injury to all" . So it seems

as if this sort of phrase has a certain currency, even 30

in literature, EXHIBIT M , which is the UNB News,

99 . I D De Vries .

which I think means University of Natal Black Section

News? --- Kyk die Staatsaanklaer het toe nog my ge-

tuienis gelei, ek het die duidelik gestel dat SAPTU

en dieMC wel hierdie slagspreuk gebruik , maar ~at ' dit

baie beslis nie net deur hulle gebruik word nie .

No, I never suggested that you said that, the

only point I want to make is, that if someone does use

it, it is consistent with the fashionabi lity, if I may

say, of the phrase, would you go along with that? ---

Ja, die Engels is nou vir my 'n bietjie verwarrend. 10

Let me try it again? --- Ja .

All I am saying to you is that if Mr . X in the

street uses the phrase "an injury to one is an injury

to all, it may just be because that expression is

generally fashionable these days, for example that it

was at the back of this book? --- Ja nee, soos ek u

reeds geantwoord het, ek het nie 'n probleem om dit so

te stel nie.

That is very fair. I understand that the Wilson

• Rowntree Boycott was in fact organised by SAWU, South 20

African Allied Workers Union, you do not dispute that?

--- Ja nee, ek weet daarvan.

You confirm it, thank you. To deal with the

exhibits in this case, I wonder if you could be given

a copy of N.l. Have you seen these documents before?

Nee, ek meen daar is geen feite gegee, oor die saak

aan my voorgele nie.

Do you mind, with His Worship's persmission,

reading through it? --- Goed.

Again with His Worship's permission, take your 30

time and absorb it? --- U wil nou sekere vrae vra?

•

100. I D De Vries.

From my notes you say that you have not seen

this document before? --- Nie om te bestudeer nie, ek

mag vir die Staatsaanklaer gevra het of julle die goed

indien en dit mag aan my genoem gewees het. Daardie

boekie wat u netnou vir my gegee het, "Womens Day? II

Ek het geweet hier word dokumente ingedien waaroor ek

nie gevra is om dit te bestudeer nie en 'n opinie te

gee vir die Staat nie . Ek meen dit is nou werklik die

eerste slag wat ek dit bestudeer .

he ek moet 'n opinie hieroor gee?

Ek neem aan u wil

Do you remember that in your evidence you were

referred to this document? --- Kyk dit mag wees maar -

verstaan ek u nou reg dat die Staatsaanklaer dit aan my

genoem het?

Yes and as I understand it he read a portion to

yOU? --- Dit mag wees, dan het my geheue my nou sleg

in die steek gelaat. Ek kan nie onthou nie, was dit die

"slogan" wat hy aan my gelees het?

Well that is the part that you dealt with? Ek

het nie geweet dit was uit hierdie dokument nie . By

mag dit genoem het maar ek het nou nie so daarvan kennis

geneem nie.

Well now you have looked at this document, not so?

Ja.

Insofar as any political organisations are

mentioned at all, there is a reference to the BPC?

Yes .

Which is the Black Peoples' Convention? --- That

is right.

10

20

Now a banned organisation? Dit is reg, in 1977 . 30

Which was a militant Black Consciousness and

Collection Number: AD2021

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958-1982

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on August the 9th, 1956. Sorry, the 8th August 1981. IIIn ......geskiedenis ~ onguns te bewys van...

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Transcript of on August the 9th, 1956. Sorry, the 8th August 1981. IIIn ......geskiedenis ~ onguns te bewys van...