Entrevista a Norman Mailer (INGLES)
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Transcript of Entrevista a Norman Mailer (INGLES)
7/29/2019 Entrevista a Norman Mailer (INGLES)
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44 n o r ma n ma i l e r
Isaw norman mailer v th cu t dy Ap, t h
h Cp Cd. T u ut g ugh t t th
Pc sss kg h y d Cc S
cv k cu, but th t c d t t t
retire to the downstairs sitting room o Mailer’s house by the ocean. We sat on
chs by g d, d s spk sg h gh cp
hugh h d hugh h gss k bcg h ud hghty-u-y-d uth’ hd. M’ tty-x y, N
Chuch, s N Yk h kd, bu h psc cud b
h pgs ud us.
M t tvd th gz 1964, th y h pub-
shd hs sh bk. Ts y h pubshd hs y-scd, Te Castle
in the Forest , d ddctd t t h t gdchd, vu
gdchd d gdc. M s h h h usd b, d h
walks with two canes. He is an old prince o duality, so it comes as no surprise
h h s hs hg ds, hch d h g s
interview
Norman Mailer
Te Art of Fiction No. 193
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Norman Mailer in 2006.
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46 n o r ma n ma i l e r
y qut th t t. W t upp tgth th ght b
h bg, Mch Shy’s, by su h spczs
yss. M ks h s by h s s d h ks h
u b. H usuy ks hs ys shs h bcus h ks
cg th, kg t th, d t dg th. “Lk h,” h sd, g . “A ys sh qu ks k h c
Gk gd.”
T thg Zu-k but M h h pdd y
quss, y s h s s hy s Suds Lg. Hs bu ys sh
h h d h ds p hs g. “A Gg Pp-
’s sc,” h sd, “ S Jh h D, I suddy hd
g d I k I ud’ k d h s. S I cd
the side and there I met Philip Roth. Sometimes I have to go into a telephone
ksk p, Ph, I sd. Yu jus c’ y g. I k, sd Rh—’s
h s h . W, I sd, yu ys pccus.”
N d h dug u , M ud sp d h dk.
H’s uch bz hs dys, d h h ds dk ds b
supsg cbs. A p I d h d d g
juc; h p s u d gpu. Hs gc ck-
, d I t tht M ud b gd p t b tuck th h y. H s y h sp gu d hs pp’s
pps. F sc, s hus us ckg h k
t cvct Ru v, M uggtd g d, d
s sp u spc bds h h d hg usd
M’s d shppg s.
A s, s h pgssd, s h bs h hus
were twisting in time to Mailer’s thoughts. He uses his hands like a lmmaker
or a boxing coach, orever raming the idea o movement. But with the stormcg d h t k Cpt Ahb, tug ut th pt
d h bcks h Nh Ac, suggg s h h bg sh. I
pt t tch h ptch d th th ukb. A tht
s Mch Shy’s, I hpd h hs c d d h I ud
k . I s N Egd g , d h g sgh d
h cc dsc s dk d qu. M’s hus s y cs,
d I g h s d sppd css h d. H s d hs c
d g hs h sdk y ggy, h scks kg hd. I
sd chg h u u h dsppd hugh h g. As
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 47
I kd y I cd pqu hus uh d sg h Jh
Ds Psss d h ghy ys g, jus s N Kgsy M s
g d. I s hppy s hs huss s cs, h ghs bug
bgh h dkss.
—Andrew O’Hagan
interviewer
Dgh McDd c cd Pc “Eghh S by h S.”
H g h yu b cg h?
norman mailer
I t c h I but t. I hvg c th
g h I d, Bc S, y s . W dcdd
d g sh kd d sh’d hd hs y
h p Cp Cd. I us h b 1942 ’43 d I bsuy
love with the place. Tere was a great ear o the Nazis landing suddenly on the
bck sh— h h y s p s cs h. S h
ghs h . Wkg h ss gh k s
bck h Ac c ps. A hugh h , I kp g y tht th t thg ’d d h I gt bck— d h— ’d g
Pc.
interviewer
Ad yu sd Te Naked and the Dead hbus?
mailer
I g u h y My ’46 d c up h Ju. I sdh bk Ju, yb by h bgg Juy. I bg g d
bch hu u. I usuy d cup ks up bk.
interviewer
Yu hd s?
mailer
I ys k hug ub s b I s. I d d
c s d hk bu d bd. N ks h y
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A manuscript page fom T Cs h Fs by Norman Mailer.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 49
t gt t v. I thk t tk k th Te Naked and the
Dead , bcus I s yug d s u d u h . I dd’ y
h d y sch— s h b. I s hudd
pgs h I s h h su.
interviewer
Ad yu k s gd?
mailer
I d I hugh s c, d h h I’d hk, Oh,
yu d’ k h . I s’ sys hs dys—I k ugh
bu gd g k h. Ls gh supp yu d I spk bu
Teodore Dreiser. We agreed more or less, didn’t we, that style was not his orte
d y h hd shg b h sy? Ds s h pp I
d t tht t, d I ud y y ty tp hv thy
shg sgs bd by syg ys, W, Ds ds’ h
uch sy.
T’ uch thg hvg t uch ty. I thk th y h
g y h s Pus. H y hd pc g d
sy. Usuy yu h g sy yu b csd.T pps Hy Js d pps Hgy. T s h
tendency would be Zola, whose style is reasonably decent, nothing remarkable,
bu h s c.
I hk y k I’ g hugh h ps sy. I s s bs
An American Dream d vtuy xtt Te Executioner’s Song ,
bcus h s pdgus. I An American Dream s y
gg. I s ckg h dsh.
interviewer
It may be argued, in your case, that a great subject has a tendency to unlock
sccy yu sy, shg h s bus b.
mailer
I’ sg bcus yu g such c dg. My s h
Te Executioner’s Song h hb. I’d b ug
ccs y bqu sy, d s gg . My h
hg bc, yu k—yu sss u h, yu hk bqu sy s
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50 n o r ma n ma i l e r
sy? I’s sy. I’s shg yu y h . I ks ys
k. Yu guy kp tkg but th vtu pcty—I’ h
you. Tere’s absolutely nothing to simplicity, and I’m going to prove it with
hs bk, bcus I pbby h h pc shg h I
c sp bk. S I pcdd d . My pd h bk sh h bs pc g s Gy G’s bu -hds . I
qud b. N g by up hs p cud b sup
h , bcus h ks h c , d suddy yu s
hs s subsc, dsp . H gh h b puk,
h cd, h ght hv kd t pp hdu h, but
by Gd, h hd d d h hd ss ps y sy, hch
s h .
One o my basic notions or a long , long time is that there is this mysterious
u u h cd y. W ss ys yg cb .
We are mountaineers, and the question is, Which ace do you attack? Dierent
aces call or dierent approaches, and some demand a knotty and convoluted
t ty. Oth dd gt pcty. T pt tht ty
ck h u y.
S I h G bk spy. Myb d hk I cud k
cck Hgy, bu h c h s, h cs g spy, I Hgy’s qu. My g d Hgy s
cssy h , h chc. I hk hd cud h
b s dss . Bu h shd us, s s hs, h
h p sgh h Egsh sc cud b.
interviewer
L’s g Hgy scd. Is pssb h shd g-
h g sc hu g ?
mailer
Yes, and he did it more than anyone ever had beore or aer. But he’s a trap. I
you’re not careul you end up writing like him. It’s very dangerous to write like
Hgy, bu h h hd ’s s k pssg. I s
ud’ us yug s—I ’ spk h h, bu
s—h ds’ Hgy hs yuh.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 51
interviewer
Do you remember where you were when you heard Hemingway had killed
hs?
mailer I b y . I s h J Cpb Mxc d s
beore we got married. I was truly aghast. A certain part o me has never really
g . I y, s hug g. Wh h s syg s, Ls
yu ss u h. G sgh: h yu’ s yu’ -
g xy dgus psychgc juy, d c b up
yu c.
interviewer
Dd cps yu ss hs cug?
mailer
I htd t thk tht h dth ght d tht. I c up th th:
Hemingway had learned early in lie that the closer he came to daring death the
hh s h. H s h s h g dc, d gg
ss dh. Ad s I hd hs h gh gh hh s , h sd gdgh My, Hgy ud g hs
bd d h’d pu hs hub h shgu gg d pu h b
hs uh d squz d h gg b, d—bg, shk-
g—h’d y s h cs h cud c hu hg h hg g .
O h gh h . T d ss h h jus
dcdg b bs. H, ’s hg bu hy. T c
h s h Hgy cd sucd.
interviewer
Mgh b sd, y , h g s s s-h?
mailer
It u yu pudy. T’ py yu yu h bk,
hch s hy s c b s bsuy gd cu ccss h hy
eel are unair. We eel we have killed ourselves once writing the book, and now
hy skg k us g . Gy G c kd,
“Pd, th’ thg .” Ad I’v ud tht v d v g. Yt
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52 n o r ma n ma i l e r
you’re writing a good novel then you’re being an explorer—you’re getting into
shg h yu d’ k h d, h h d s g. T’s
xu dd d xc h kps yu gg. y d, ’s
worth writing a novel unless you’re tackling something where your chances o
succss p. Yu c . Yu’ gbg h yu psychc ss. I’ss yu h g y , d hs g c y d
h y cu-d-sc.
interviewer
L’s k bu g, gg d, d ’s b pcs. H ds h
gg d c yu y s ? T s phps hg
dgg ’s y h h d h h bs ys bhd .
mailer
Well, I think i you get old and you’re not ull o objectivity you’re in trouble.
Te thing that makes old age powerul is objectivity. I you say to yoursel, My
k s bcd h I h hgs h I’ hd y
, h c g yu susc. Yu d up h k ss h yu
s h s , d s h yu d’ h y g. As yu g
older, there’s no reason why you can’t be wiser as a novelist than you ever werebeore. You should know more about human nature every year o your lie. Do
you write about it quite as well or as brilliantly as you once did? No, not quite.
Yu’ d pg h.
interviewer
Why?
mailer I thk t’ p tt b dg d thg . T b
deteriorates. Why can’t an old car do certain things a new car can do? You have
to take that or granted. You wouldn’t beat on an old car and say, You betrayed
! T gd hg s yu k y s h d c.
interviewer
I s suggsd h c s Ac s s
h s Ac s h gh h ’s d sd
h, Eugh , g.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 53
mailer
H sd h d’ y?
interviewer
Y. It’ th t yu h N Yk. I t hppd, gh hk s c . O g d g sds ds-
g h.
mailer
N, I c’ b . I’ yu y c h h, I’d
sy, kddg s kddg, bu g yu ss y p.
interviewer
D yu hk Ac s gd pc hch pcc h s?
mailer
Wh I s yug s us . I’s h s h s
many good writers in America—most o our literature had not yet been writ-
. Egsh ss hd h j ghh- d h-cuy
gu t d th d g byd. Wht dd hv t g byd? A g s, M d Hh. T s s y sh. F us, h
d s d p. N ’ bgud. T s bd ugh,
hugh Ac ss ys c supy h s hp-
pg Hyd. Yu ’ g bu hu u
s, yu jus bg d— s cs yu by
tt but hy ’ h, hch I thk th g
hug quss.
N pp g up h s, hch hs h h buty c t u dg, d tht th cc. Ay
t yu’ ttd tv, yu k t’ gg t b tuptd
every seven to ten minutes, which will shatter any concentration. Kids watch
television and lose all interest in sustained narrative. As a novelist, I really eel
I’ h ds dyg c. I c s , d ’s d
bg c d h c s gg g. T s yu qus s
th: Ac g gd pc t b vt, d c t
du pc.
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54 n o r ma n ma i l e r
interviewer
Ws h h h cuy kd ss h uh?
mailer
T p s y dy, bck h y s, uch important to me than movie stars. Movie stars were oddities, curiosities. Actors
cud b dyc, hy cud b c, bu h s’ p,
h sch hgs. Nss . I c’ spk h pp h
they enter the priesthood, but that was the way I elt as a novelist—vocational.
Nhg s p .
interviewer
T cuy ss h b s hugy g ss— g
Ac . Dd h d yu ss c?
mailer
Ms cy. I hk ub us usd d y d sxy ys
ago o doing just that—writing the great American novel. I will say, that dream
ds hd.
interviewer
Tere’s a story Shelley Winters told about you. Te way I heard it, she came
yu ud 1950 d skd yu hp h udsd Ds’s An
American ragedy. Sh bdy d b cs s h cy g Gg
Ss’s sc dp. I uy c u s A Place in the Sun, h
Mgy C. A s sy, h.
mailer Ad bsuy u.
interviewer
I h d g cg s g b ducd.
mailer
W, ’d k ch th. Shy cd up dy. Sh hy-
c. Sh sd, I h g s Gg Ss . I hs dys sh
s d s dzy bd h s uch css. Sh s by
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 55
serious about acting but she played silly blonds in silly movies, and she wanted
shg b.
Sh d, I’v gt t d th bk An American ragedy, d t’ v
hundred pages, I can’t read it by tomorrow, and so orth. So I said, All right, I’ll
c d s yu. Ad cus I hd y gd uckd h dd . Hy, I’ b h hs bd css d yb
good things will come o it. So I get there and she’s got a bad case o hives, and
sh’s g bd ppd ud h hd, d h ch s s, d
sh ks k h, d sh’s d k, y usxy, d sh ks
dy g sg cs h ps.
I hs dys I s’ ys y c, bu h dy I s. I sd, N
k, s ’s s-hudd-pg bk, bu yu p s y
the middle, and I showed her about two hundred and y pages in the middle.
Rd s uch s yu c gh, d d’ pc. T ky hg s h yu
can play this role, and what you want to remember is, she’s a working-class girl
yu’ pyg, d sh’s g h’s cpy hu c. Sh s h
sh s. Ad h’s h c Rb Ad. I’s h gs h h
h Cyd, d ’s h ks h s .
S I g h d. I gh s h b h ds h
sx h s gg b h dy. Ad I spk y , h ghustones o a husband who’s been out trying to gallivant and has ailed. And then,
cus, y-u hus Shy cs up d sys, N, I g
h . Sh sys, I s kg h d I sd, M. Ss, h y I k
s Rb Ad s g cpy hu c. Ad h sd, Hy,
you know, you’re not the dummy I thought you were. So she got the role. Once
sh’d b kg ks, sh cd g d sd, N,
I d dgu. I d . I’v ud tht ttt
bu c s d h’s gg d .
interviewer
Much th tv’ t ccd th th qut tv.
What made you write this? What caused you to marry her? How did you come
b d h pcu c? Why dd yu d ? Ad sks
h yu , Te Castle in the Forest , s ks shudd h qus-
t tv, th vchg bg ht d yug Adph Ht
into a personication o evil? Te amily incest? Te example o the bees? Te
sy hs h’s bgs?
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56 n o r ma n ma i l e r
mailer
N h. N h b.
interviewer
Hd . Yu ds’ ? Bu h x s h qus yu g h bk?
mailer
Oh, y tv pt htv tv I gv Ht. I ht t
when writers give psychological explanations that pretend to answer questions
d d’.
interviewer
Nhss yu chs pu hs hgs h bk.
mailer
W, thy ctbutg ct. But y t th bk th
beginning was to have a devil narrating it. Tere’s a long ri in the novel about
h h g g cu dy ds hd ugh b
in God, let alone the devil. And my eeling is that there’s no better explanation H h h h s spd by h d, s Jsus Chs s spd
by Gd. I pp b h Jsus Chs s h s Gd h I d’
s hy yu c’ s h H s h spg h d. I’s h sps
xp. T’s h.
interviewer
Do you stand with Milton and with Paradise Lost in the understanding that
h d ss hs h bs s?
mailer
Oh yh, h h bs s. I y d b h h’s cs-
kt bt Gd d th dv tht g u . Pp
hate the thought today, because we live in a technological time where human
bgs sck d d h hg h Mdd Ags, h
cd u bs d pyd Gd d sbbd d sd, Oh, Gd,
p py ttt t . Oh, Gd, p v . Oh, Dv, ty y.
W, ’v hd th Eghtt c th. W’v hd Vt. W’v
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 57
hd s cus hch g u y s hu bgs, d
hd c. T’s Gd d, h d h h, d h
ccupyg hs hug c. Ad h us d’ b Gd
h d.
interviewer
D yu b Gd?
mailer
Oh, cus I d. Bu I d’ I b Gd s g, s h
Jhh. I hk h s p gb by pss y bck h, p gb
implicit in the notion that i you can get people araid o a powerul orce who
will punish them i they don’t do the right thing, then the agents o that orce
d hug p. Ad s h’s such hg s pshd h ds’
b Gd s -pu d -pushg. Bu I d’ b h
. I b Gd s h c. My Gd s h Gd cd us,
d h k cs Gd s cd h su. Gd s h
bs h h sh c d ud y dfcu ccuscs.
interviewer S s hs xs Gd?
mailer
Absolutely. Doesn’t know how it’s going to turn out, doesn’t know whether
h sh s gg succd . Hs h h d. Ts Gd s
c gd, yu . Ad h c gds h us. A h
d s xsc. Ad s h h ch h
d th pt thy d’t hv t y but t. But we’re going to go with rank speculations, absolutely errant speculations, illegal
spcus, I’d sy h h d s pbby s h s cuc
Gd. I h ds, h hgh cs h us h dd’ k
hs ups Gd h hd s huy.
interviewer
A large number o Americans today hold the notion that God and the devil
k h dy s.
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58 n o r ma n ma i l e r
mailer
I hk hy . N cg ss—I d’ b h h d
z yu d yu’ g v. But c yu y tht yu’v v hd
uck h yu dd’ h?
interviewer
A gc, yb.
mailer
N. A . Ad I hk h’s h s.
interviewer
I Te Castle in the Forest , I d yu ’ ysyg h pcss by
suggsg h H cud y b s h s bcus h d s ps
at the moment o his conception. Tat would be my argument with the book:
vt c’t g th cpcty hu bg t ct t th
cs h ds, h sucu h s.
mailer
Yu c gu h. H s, h, kd: h’s xp-t h. St t cphb t. W c d
S’s bgphy, c sudy h Bshk , c sudy h
cdt Ru, c tudy th hdu th th Ru
Ru. W c dd S up b by b, pc by pc, d udsd
h hu s. H y h b h s hu bgs
h d, bu h s hu bg. Yu d’ d bg h
dv t xp St. But Ht dt. Ht t tg
th y St . H’ t k. H xpcb, u yu buy th d tht h th dv’ chc tht g vy dp t
G u.
Ad I ud g uh h h. I’ cpg h x bk h
I’m going to write. Who knows i I’ll be around long enough to write it, but i
I can, Hitler will emerge as the devil’s choice. By the end o Te Castle, he’s one
s hudds cdds h h d hs sdd huy
s pssb ss. T d, k Gd, gs cd y hgs,
bu hsy s hy pdcb. Gd d h d g h
h. Hus g gs h d g hss. Ad h
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 59
dv d t ty t ct Ht th y Gd ctd Ju. H’
pgs, s h cs hudds d husds p Hs, d
hs s h h c hugh. Why? Bcus h xdy cd-
t Gy, hch t pt h Ht ccvd, d
tht’ ht th xt bk gt t. H th cppy kd d up bg hs phus.
interviewer
W’ g d csgy dd by pp h b h h
h py s h c .
mailer
Yh.
interviewer
W v th th t. T Ax Ev. T Gt St. T Ev
Ep.
mailer
T but y t t k ct tht th bd buttdquy. I th v Ac? Y. I th v I? Y. I d
more evil than the other? Who knows. We’re both immensely evil, we’re both
y gd. It’ pt u gu b tht xtu, p-
ud xtu. Atht y thy pcty hppy t bvg Gd.
Bu hy c’ b hppy phsphcy, bcus hy h s h
qut h gt h. It’ vy hd t dcb th cpxt
hu u hg gd x h. I yu h Gd s c dg
h bs h h sh c d h’s pc xp hy ’ h. W’ Gd’ ct, d Gd h gt pct u, th y th,
gd h, hs spc chd bcus h h s h chd
be more interesting than himsel. And ditto or the mother. And in that sense
, yu gh sy, h -gd Gd. T h s Cub
Md h s hd b ks ss .
interviewer
Yu b c. S h yu cg bck s, N?
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60 n o r ma n ma i l e r
mailer
W, I ’ g, gh? I’ h g . Ad y y s
called. I go in and there’s a monitoring angel who says, Mr. Mailer, we’re very
glad to meet you. We’ve been looking orward to your arrival. Let me tell you
the good news, absolutely good news, is you’ve been passed or reincarnation.I sy, Oh hk yu, ys, I y dd’ g pc. Ad
h g g sys, W, b us, s’ y cssy
pc. I c b hcc. Bu hss, h c h s h
yu’ b pssd c. L s, b I k d s h
’ g yu d , ys sk pp, Wh ud yu k b
yu x ? Ad I sy, W, I hk I’d k b bck h. I d’
c h yu put , I’ tk y chc, but y, tht’ ht I t t
b, bck h. Ad h g g sys, Ls, M, ’ s
subscbd h dp. Eybdy s b bck h
h x . I d’ k . . . I c’ bg . . . s h ’
g yu bkd . S h ps h bg bk, ks, d sys, W, ’
g yu d cckch. Bu h’s h gd s: yu’ b h ss
cckch h bck.
interviewer N bd.
mailer
Reincarnation is the best evidence o God’s sense o wit and judgment. God,
I p, s g. H s c, d cs h judg.
interviewer
W t Gy G’ b ct tht ty ttctd yu h?
mailer
Oh yh. Bu h hugh hs b h ys. I 1954, h I s
a very proud atheist, very proud, very sure o mysel, very sure that God had to
be dispensed with, I went out to visit James Jones in Illinois. He started talking
bu c. N, Js s h s pcc ss I’
ever met, real Midwestern. He was absolutely solid in his sense o the real and
th gv d h yu dt th t. H pu h yu dt
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 61
precisely with the difculties o reality. He was a great believer in the real, and
y h bd c. I sd h, I’ su yu d’ b
h su d yu? H sd, H ys I d! I’s h y hg h ks ss.
S I hd h h k h x ys b y d
y hd.
interviewer
D yu h ds?
mailer
N, I d’. I pu hs ds h k.
interviewer
A cpcty vc cg t yu cc t, d t cg
quy yu pu.
mailer
T pu s s. T gd s uch h I .
interviewer L’s pus h pu. T c s h bg
up. One is Infamous, Douglas McGrath’s movie about ruman Capote. Tere’s
sc h Cp s hg d h s hs ch gs h d.
One o them asks him i it isn’t rightening to go into the cell with the Clutter
uds, d Cp sys, “ b k, I’ uch ccd y
sy ud N M.”
mailer I you’ve been in ve—say, ve—ghts in your lie, the public sees it as y
ghs hudd d y.
interviewer
And in the other movie, Factory Girl , about Edie Sedgwick, there’s a scene in
which Andy Warhol is sitting in a conessional box and he’s saying to the priest,
“I hv th d d N M kd up d puchd h th
sch, d I cud hk s, W N M puch ?”
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62 n o r ma n ma i l e r
mailer
Pp ys ss h hy .
interviewer
A yu sck ?
mailer
Oh, I’ byd bg sck , yu k. Yu h shug.
interviewer
Y yu k hs ys b k up h c.
mailer
T tt vc gtt. I y thught t th
s us s ss. T g ss h h cuy
dt th v, thy dt th dpptt d v, thy dt th
honesty, they dealt to some degree with corruption, they dealt with the orces
o society as general abstract orces that could bend a person’s will. Ten came
h h cuy. Hgy s scd h c bcus hs
bdy s p h . Vc s c h. Wh I dHgy I ctd th th y h ttd vc, but v
ssd.
interviewer
Was part o it your knowledge that man was living under the threat o mass
c?
mailer But that was the irony. Tat individual violence was taboo and yet we lived
vy uy th t vc. T pcty u
pp bh h S U d Ac hs ys h sp h
dys d ghs dg bu h hy cud bsuy dsy h h
cuy. I , hy skd hss h uch dg ud h
su dsy h S U y. Ts h kd ccus
h bg d h .
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 63
interviewer
Lt’ kp t th h. W c t th pd h yu g-
t Ac vt y bg t hv ucd udtdg
h c xss bh u gs d u scs. Ps
k h up.
mailer
I s ys h sy h h y d h hg
t d th vc. T dug pd h t ’t t ct
’d k h d h cuy. W d h h— s h
uch uctty. At th t, dvdu vc cdd vy
unpleasant and not to be talked about, and or me violent moments are always
xs s. Ty cuc. O ks h d sys, Myb I
c d shg c h hs.
interviewer
So you look at a gure such as Lee Harvey Oswald, a man whose name will
ys cg sg dsg c c—d h d yu s?
mailer W, s , I h dcd hh h dd . Wh I sd
Oswald’s ale I h I g Russ I s gg d u
u t. I bvd th cpcy. Ad th btt I gt t k
Osd h I c b h h s b cspcy
he was only there as some great extension, he wasn’t the sort o person who’d
b usu b h cspcy, bcus h s . H s uch
t pud. H td t d t h. I cud b g but th.
When I say I think Oswald killed John F. Kennedy, I come to that conclusion th y tgc fc, hch I’ vty-v pct
c h kd Kdy. Cy s c up h c-
ible evidence that he was part o a conspiracy, I’d have to say I was wrong. But
I b h dd , y sp s, hch s h d b us.
H td t b t. It td ut but h. Bcu h xp-
c h S U d Ac, h cssd ss c
individual violence, and he may indeed have elt that he was aorded a special
xsc.
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64 n o r ma n ma i l e r
interviewer
D yu s sd by yu ssy “T Wh Ng”?
mailer
I sd by h I’ su h y ub pp—pcuy yug —h d h s ccdg h quy h gs. I
h ds hy d chck h gs h g gs h h
chck d h’s h hy , h’s h d . Ad h’s sy
they’re wrong? Te orgasm is a very deep expression o ourselves. A lot o black
pp s h I scbd h sch h gs bck pp
h h. My g s h sc y h us ch
cu h, d pc ss.
interviewer
I t t tk t yu but h vt tgu ctu t.
Lc Sch bugh yu s h Gy G sy d
h bk bu L Hy Osd. S c yu bg sy h hpps
u cs ?
mailer k sc? A gh. Wh G, Ly c h hd
o the interviews, or hal o the interviews—something massive like that. And
h I dd g y, d y sss Judh McNy dd h ys,
bcus sh s y gd h. Ad s dd up h bu h hu-
dd s, d yb h h I pcpd . F h, s
k ducg p sp syup—yu b h su dy g u
you get down to an essence. Ten came the next step, which was to transmute
h c .I zd hs p h h xss uy cpc b
c d c. I hd hs g h I c’ y jusy xp, h h
cs hs bk syd h g ss h c ud b.
Wh yu h cc b cs, h ub s h s h cs
—h’s h d I’ kg —d. Ty pd. Ty’
scabby. Tey’re distorted. Very oen they’re alse acts. And there’s a tendency
h yu d’ h h hs cs up h gh, d
s h sy y ds, dsp gd d sus s, h by
h y.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 65
interviewer
Ts s xc. Bk d.
mailer
OK. I would go so ar as to say that any history that gets built entirely uponct gg t b u d b dg. It’ th hu d
h s b syhsz h h y gh h b. N, h y
d’t hv t b th tht tk pc, t h t b ty tht pp
can live with in their narrow minds, as the likelihood o how something could
k pc. Ad h’s h ky dc. I yu d bk d sy, Ys, hs
s h cud h k pc, yu d hs b chd. T g I
hd h Te Executioner’s Song s h hs cs, y csy xd
and reexamined and reduced and rened, would begin to create a maniest o
h g h I ud c c. Fc bcus bhd, d h’s
h dc. I yu pu cs gh such y h hy uy bh
th d, th yu’ tg ct. Fct t t gd,
syg su h’s u s ppsd su h s u. Shg c b
u d s b c.
interviewer Yu’ b y hppy h hs. Wh yu Te Armies o
the Night dd yu s ?
mailer
Yh, , I dd’ d uch jb h h “hsy s , h
s hsy” b. hs dy I’ su h I s dg h I dd h.
I hk h Te Armies o the Night s c. T bk s s s
I cud k t. It utbgphc tv, d tht’ t th hg s c.
interviewer
Ds bh yu h yu Puz Pzs ks bsd
cu sus?
mailer
S y th bd cttud, O cu M gd ct
—h’s uch s. T s , ys. Bcus h ps
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66 n o r ma n ma i l e r
saying that is just not amiliar with my work. No one could read Harlot’s Ghost
d y t’ ct, yu k. N cud d Ancient Evenings,
Gd’s sks, d sy h’s c. Ty’ h hs ks,
h’s . Ty’ d up h ds h bss h su hy h d,
hch ds b h c k.I ccp h I h b g h h pbs c h
ys, d h I h b hppy g c bcus ’s s
h g s. Yu d’ h y bu h sy.
interviewer
T ’ d, N. N y.
mailer
N, g . Wh yu’ g c yu c s yu
gv g. Yu c hv yu ptgt tk up u ct tht
appeals to you at the moment, and then you have to ollow up on that act, and
yu h d h h csqucs h c. Ad hs , sx
hs , h hs, ys , yu k up d sy, I k
the wrong turn that day. Tat happens in the writing o novels, and it’s enough
gh yu dh.
interviewer
OK. Bu yu’ gg suggs h yu c bcus
s s?
mailer
No—not quite. I wrote nonction because the jobs were oered to me. For
sc, h Marilyn, Sc Mdh, h s y g h , cd sy h’s g s py c y y- husd ds
My M. Ad h d h gu.
interviewer
Wh s ?
mailer
F h sk h cd, s y husd ds. I hs dys h
was enormous. And Scott said to me, Look, Norman. It’s very good. But don’t
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 67
t t uch. I pcdd t gt tk th My tht I dd up
writing ninety-ve thousand words. Fiy thousand ended up being a modest
py h bk sd cup. T p s, s such g-
b bk . I dd’ h d y hkg. I dd’ h c
hs cdb bd s h hd such cdb —h s h. Ad p h, g h bk ugh g d bu
ct d ct. S, I dg th gup . Evybdy
Hollywood exaggerates and distorts and trims and manipulates stories, and so
s s k bg gc g. Yu hd dcd h gh
b u d h gh .
interviewer
T’s p yu h jys h bg gc g?
mailer
Ds jus! I c dd sy W By Vanity Fair . I y
liked him, and I think he liked me. I also wanted him to run or president. Tis
s 1991, d h dud. Ad h A Hufg h
h shud u psd. S I cd W up d I sd, W yu s
c psd? Ad h sd, A gh, gh, h d yu ?Hd gc, I d h. Yu’ g , h sd. H ughd. Ah,
y W By hd b psd.
interviewer
Fub h cud d h d E By y cs
h uh. H uch yu s h h gd pss h yu’ k
yu ubjct, d ud t v b pb yu t y, Ad Ht,
c’est moi?
mailer
Wh I s dg h sy W, I s Bugsy, hch hd’
been released yet. And the violence in Bugsy was truly apparent. Now Warren
Beatty is obviously physically able, he’s a bit o an athlete, but you don’t think
o him as violent. And so it was a shock to see how marvelous and convincing
ptt vc h gd t gv. Ad I d t h, A’t yu
little bit concerned that your riends won’t be comortable around you now?
Ad h sd, Oh, , s y ds cs d hy udsd .
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68 n o r ma n ma i l e r
Yu d’ y d h h pc chc yu-
s b b py h. T h gd d sd, O cus yu’ g
sy- pc ’s s. I’d sy h Adph H, pc
s I dd.
interviewer
Yu’ g qu h pc.
mailer
You bring whatever powers you have to high ocus. It’s why very ew people
v bc uccu vt d b t uccu vt.
Tey have the talent, but it’s also about bringing the powers to ocus. It involves
su h s’ gb. F sc, bg s s yu h b
dy sc . Wh yu’ y kg h c
b dys h yu’ jus u h kg d g hg
yu d hg y s. Yu d’ b bhd, yu
d’ s h ph, yu d’ k g d
yu kds—yu b h yu’ kg. Ad h s hd.
Ad cus y g yu h g h d c h bk pg
d tt up g. S th bu bgg yu p t cu tu. Yu h b yu’ gg gg spu dsc
d g h pc h yu c hk. N jus hk s yus,
bu d s s h ps h’s shg h .
interviewer
H th b tc vty-v pct th yu, h yu
h yu y k xdy u bu h subjc? I
y k bu h subjc, s ppsd kg h ds dh s h s. I ’ hkg Pcss.
mailer
Tt . But , v vty-v pct. Ay th h.
I , hs xdy pp. Yu d L Hy Osd,
Gary Gilmore, Marilyn Monroe, Hitler. What’s the common denominator in
all o them? Tey’re all essentially people without roots—people who’ve gone
hugh dy css.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 69
interviewer
Muhd A?
mailer
Oh, I hk h’s hd g hs dy y ys.
interviewer
Why?
mailer
A bc t y th ght but th g, d th udc. H h
ss bsu ss. S h y hs sus shd, d
shd dcy s s, h s sh d ps. S h
hd dy css. O dus, dy shs.
interviewer
Jsus Chs?
mailer
I yu hk yu’ h s Gd, yu g dy css.
interviewer
Yu h b d cs d h s h cbd g, bu
not so much to the minutiae o amily lie or the American suburbs. Saul Bellow
put everything that ever happened to him into his novels. You’ve been married
sx s bu h usd yu p h y.
mailer N, d s—hch s, I b h h ud xp-
ences o your lie orm crystals in your imagination, and that you can take your
imagination and beam it through rom dierent angles. It hits the crystal, you
beam it through this way, you beam it through on another angle, and you end
up h d ss, d pçus, d s. I’s xcy h
cs d. I’ dcy bu h I s d
h. I d’ hk h I’ bu . I hk I bu
pct v, pct chd, bcu I d’t bv ug ’
xpc dcy. I hk yu d, yu cu h pssbs.
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70 n o r ma n ma i l e r
interviewer
N, ud b pssb k yu bu h c hu
kg bu pcs. Yu c cd yus cs.
mailer I s d. I cs.
interviewer
Bu us k bu css. I hs bc such hg A-
c. I’ sd yu shp h pp k N Pdhz,
pp h juy h k h y h pc h
hy sd.
mailer
Well, I can understand it. And in act, I eel partly responsible or Podhoretz.
H d I cs ds p. H bk cd Making It ,
d h bk g shd by. H s uppu h . I qu
udtd hy h uppu. But thy thd h bk k yu
ud’ b. I s uy ugy. Ad I hd’ d y— I’d d h
s h , hch s py gd. Ad I ssd hs shg d sd h, I’ gg . S I d h bk. Ad h bk
bys s. T scd h s gd-u. I h s h, hs hss s h
th dty tt ct g th , g tt d tctu, tht
hy y k , d hy k bg. Ad hy cc
h hss d hs. Bu hs s y h g c
tht v tkd but. Yu c tk but x but yu c’t tk but
b d ds succss. S h ds h. Ad h h ss g
ptt th pp th h hv d t—pu, t tt ps, h pp h k gdd h . Ad I
s hd h y h cud by hs bk. T s u
nerve there—in other words, i you want to be strong theoretically, you better
b sg d s . T’s h ks gd g. Sg bh
ds. Ad h s’.
S I dd up ckg h bk, t. Ad I ptty cu. Lkg
bck , I s pbby cu. H dpss d syd
h bu y . . . jus dd’ d uch. Wkd hs gz d
sd usc d hdy s y. Ad by h d h , h’d
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 7 1
d h gh. Pdhz s hg c d psg.
S th t h vd v t th ght, t ’t ugh t b th
ght, h hd t b t th ght. Ad I tht I’ pb, t
htv dg, hpg t hv hvd h v th. Whch t
bd, bcus h s pyg hs ss h gh by hg suppdh Iq d h hs h —hs h h dcs
h css.
interviewer
Politics was a consuming passion or you—on the level o action, or a time, as
uch s h g. Dd yu h h pc c yu dsd?
mailer
Yu pd yu , yu’ ptcy dd t, ttckg ht
yu h pcy. Ad pbby hs h y s c. Bu
h c s h d . A p I cuy pcs d
d c u y N Yk d hugh I’d k dc.
What I discovered is I might just as well have tried out or a soccer team, when
I d’ k yhg bu scc.
interviewer
T 1969 cpg y kd h d yu pc c.
mailer
I zd ub thg d. O th I dd’t hv
ugh s. I , I gd h h u hs h cpg,
d I s d h . W g y pss. Ad y ,
h , s jus bg u ss gs h . Wh I sd t v tht h c’t b ctd pdt th tty.
Ad gh I d h k, g c Jy C. H bk h
u, bu h s’ y succssu psd.
interviewer
So it must interest you to imagine how Václav Havel managed to be a writer
d b psd ?
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72 n o r ma n ma i l e r
mailer
I d’t k uch but h c. W t c d hd uhppy
g bcus I’d b H d I kd bu g Cs, h
sg h s, hch s udby u, bu H jus cd
up. Obusy I s s h h h shd h yhg d, s y g s, Hy, yu g s? I yu g s! H
bugh u h d Bky .
interviewer
Bu s yu us h udsd?
mailer
I understood, but I also thought it was narrow-minded. Yes, he’d spent his
ghg h cuss, d h hd h, bu yu’ g b b
t k dtct. T uch thg tvy gd cut,
d h’s h, s Fd Cs. I , h’s hug d-
c—th vg cut tht ppd Hv buuct h
hd kp hs s c d h ugh d s ppss bcus h
s dcy. Ad h s Cs, h s hd by y Ac
pdt vy p , hch tht h hd bc hd by dg . Ad h hd hy bc psd? By shkg
hds h pp hy dspsd dcds. Ad H shud h b
b s h dc.
interviewer
Fy O’C c kd th qut, “Wh pk Ac
dy?” T s sh g s h dsg gcs. C yu g
g h h s h qus b h Ac s?
mailer
N, . I’ gy. I sh I cud b ps bu . Bu h
ks h k h cuy. T’s b pud sh h
Ac hc. W usd b cuy h pdd s h pd-
uct d. Nt cy th gtt t butu t y
chd pduct, but d vy gd v pduct tht d
cc ss. N h cuy’s pd s kg.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 73
interviewer
F. Sctt Ftzgd k tht Ac ddctd t u. But t
u sy h Ac uy bs s s?
mailer Wh cs g s, ’ b g s sc Wd
W II. N, yb h s ys Wd W II, Russ
dgc tht bcu t dd hv gt pp t ct p
cus, qus. Ad h h hy h h bd ys. Ty’
never been a huge threat to us. Yet or orty-plus years while the cold war was
, kp Acs bg ggd sugg dgy
h hd b . S h s u bush sy g d,
k , h Ac d.
Most o the country believes in Jesus Christ. And they believe that compas-
sion is the greatest virtue. But we only believe this on Sundays. And the other
sx dys h k, ’ sy cp . W scb
like hell to make more money than our neighbor. Culture’s a word that most
Acs d’ c qucky. A Eup ks xcy h yu
by cuu. Ty’ g h h chcu. Ty’ g h
th cuv tt, d hv thugh tht g tght bcu tht’ th tt y t gt t kt. S th’ gt gut
American lie, and this guilt is that we’re not good Christians. Te Karl Rove
concoction—stupidity plus patriotism—comes into play here. Te basic pro-
pgd ch h ps, pcuy h Rpubcs, s c
h h b, gd cuy h s y gd h
t th d, d tht ’ Gd’ bg d tht Gd t u t
succd, h ’ Gd’s pjc. Ad ud hs xss, ys, gg
ss sh, gg ss gu, h g h ’ s gds pd b.
interviewer
Yug Ac ss h cd cc h gc hgh
cuu d h s Oph’s Bk Cub. Bu ss ss
dg , cuy; ’s h cc cuu h’s ub. Yu g up s
cds , sh sy, uu cg h g
y ccs—pp h hd pc g d spcu hgh
cutu. I’ thkg Ivg H d Ad Kz, L g,
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74 n o r ma n ma i l e r
cu, d Edud W. A t thg: Dd th xtc
h cc udc c yu ss h cuu yu g ?
Ad , hs h dsppc h cc cuu k y h
gd h ?
mailer
T s bh quss s ys, bsuy. Ts ccs y judg-
t p. It xctg t t t pp k g d
H h s ss. Edud Ws s h s hg
t Jhvh. Yu td th pct, d yu d th dppv. At
h s , s yu g d dpd, yu dd’ y
h. T c h —h hppy, bssd —h yu cud sy,
Well, I might know more about this subject than Irving Howe. Tat was a nice
moment. We don’t have it anymore. Tose critics have all passed away. Tere’s
pc h h I c s.
interviewer
You were riends with the rillings. Did you eel such people helped you to
d yu sy s ?
mailer
L s y , d h y ggd h bk s
such. Bu s c b hs psc. H s y g . Ad
h s h bk h , Te Liberal Imagination—yu cud gu h
. Yu cud h . Yu cud hk bu . Ad h s
spend an evening with because his intelligence was so good. Diana was enthusi-
astic, emotional, open, passionate, urious, absolutely took sides on everything,
intolerant, ull o un—the exact opposite o Lionel. I suppose I was really closer D. W s k cuss. W ugh h d d ch
h. Ad cus h s L H: hy pssb ds,
h gs d h Hs, bcus L s s syphc h
Py, d hy y uch cus. Ad y hy bugh
h up b h u h d, h hy pd cpy.
interviewer
“Mg kb ttut,” y th t th bk,
“spcy ddu pp.” T d ugh.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 75
mailer
W, h d s spkg. T’s .
interviewer
As yu p. Bu I s d yu gs h d yu bs.
mailer
L’s sps h qus. Dd Pcss’s gs—’d b sy -
tionships—make him a better painter or a worse one? It’s an interesting point
gu.
interviewer
Ty cy dd h y.
mailer
Ey s cuu, d yu dp h cuu, h’s
t yu , d yu u t t. Ad gv th ct tht
g t y ctb ttut, yu ch tht cutu.
F xp, upp yu pd t y yu Fc. Ad yuy dcd . Yu ud’ h s yu sy, I h Fc.
Yu’d sy, Fc hs u . I h y dcs h , bu
I’ hppy I sp ys Fc. W d’ k gus k h
bcu thy cd th dgtg. Oh, h’ th h tk y
yuh d jyd h h d h k . T’s h y s.
M gd qut uch by g . T’ qut
y d tht th ch g Pc dt typ pt.
Ad I hk yu cud pbby sy—I d’ cp ys Pcss, hhd uch gh c h d h I’ h—h y g
shd h ch . Ech shp hd pud c h k.
O hs d ys, d ss, d udsdgs. O
hs d ss gd d .
interviewer
Gd d ?
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76 n o r ma n ma i l e r
mailer
Ou udtdg gd d v bg th u pt. D th
d s d by ’s shps h ’s chd.
interviewer I one is so minded—or so inclined—is it a good idea or a novelist to have
chd?
mailer
I don’t prescribe or novelists. I mean, i Henry James ollowed my prescrip-
, h ud h h b?
interviewer
Js hs s u pscps.
mailer
He made a etish o point o view. Tat was as close as he came to an all-out
g.
interviewer Hs s us ssy hs h s s hs ss, “T A
Fct.” I t h y d th u gd tg. “B gu d
dc d pusu h pz.” “D’ hk uch bu ps d
pessimism; try and catch the color o lie itsel.” He had quite specic notions
h h jb ddd.
mailer
I would never have wanted to live his lie. oo much went to too little. Notcy th k, but th dy-t-dy vg. T tt ht t
g g. T cc hh h cs
hs d b hgh ugh . A h s su. N, us b
h.
interviewer
Y h s h qus dshp. Ac ss h b
s py dcd by h dshps—Fzgd d Hgy,
Shd Ads d Td Ds.
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 77
mailer
Fzgd d Hgy’s dshp s hdy uubd.
interviewer
N, but th dhp vth dd thg t ch h.
mailer
A gh, , I c g yu Js Js d ys .
interviewer
Ad W Sy?
mailer
I s ugh W Sy p. H s y d .
Yu hv t udtd thg. T J d Sty d y,
d y cpttv. Wht’ t udtd ufcty
but vt h cpttv . W’ cpttv t
athletes. Particularly the ones who break through into public renown. And we
d’ sy, Oh, h d yu h b s us ch h ? Is’ ugh h ’ d? Why c’ jus jy ch h? I ds’
k h y. W’ cp. Yu c’ sy hs, Wh yu
competitive or? Isn’t it marvelous that you can catch a ootball with great ease
d u qucky? Why d yu h b cp h h h ?
Ay h ks k h s h ss s b.
At the same time we had a lot o respect or each other. I remember I received
cpy From Here to Eternity, hch I thk I’d kd , d J hd
cbd t: “ N—y t d d; y dt v.” Tt’the nature o riendship among writers. Gore Vidal—who has never been at a
ss s h g sd hu u—pd u h, “Wh
d uccd, tt thg d.” Tt’ xggt
hs cp. Bu y y g h p h,
thugh thg yu d d, th pt yu cugd.
Yu sy, W, h’s dg , I c d .
interviewer
Bu Sy?
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78 n o r ma n ma i l e r
mailer
I s hs sy. H s du sys. Pbby h bs us. H s
cu, bu h hd by c d. Ad I hk s
y p h b g . S p h h h bg
to run into trouble as a novelist, I think that’s what brought on his depression h yhg s.
interviewer
Wh xps yu g u?
mailer
I d’ g . A c p, I h y ugy
h sp shg y . T s hu sufc
kdg h jusd h sg dg.
interviewer
Ad yu dshp dd h Js Js?
mailer
Wh hppd h J s, ’d b y dy d h h g -d G. Ad I s d h Ad, d I hk G,
who was socially very ambitious, saw Adele as a sea anchor on her social ambi-
s. S sh dcdd d . Sh ud J d sd, Ad sud
, d Ad vy upt. Sh d, I dd’t ut h. I d’t k
h’s gg . Ad s I ys ssud, Oh, h jus d ugh, hd-
boiled decision. Gloria was a tough lady. So Jim and I stopped talking to each
th y, d v bc d g, hch gt ,
bu h s. Ad h G d I, ddy ugh, J s g,bc sgh ds g. I s y y gh, jyg dcg
together at some party in New York. I wouldn’t have believed it was possible
ys .
interviewer
Much hs pds updg us ssy yu . I s
cd “Evut: Quck d Expv Ct th t th
R.” I ups pp h , bu hch h gup s
yu bu ud u b h s supsg h d?
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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 79
mailer
Wh h s?
interviewer
Ys.
mailer
Updike and Roth. Because I dismissed them, you remember. And I was dead
g. G h psy ss, I’ k cd. I hk I
g h gd ugh sy, H’s gg u hs ds!
interviewer
Ad ds sups yu, hs pshuus u Cp?
mailer
H s xdy ps. Exdy. N xdy h
dph hs gc, bu xdy hs dg. I c d c-
t tht h th bvt N Yk. Ad yu’v d
what it meant to walk around the way he did when he was young. I remember
h s g Bky, d h s s dsg—I hk s OSh—h hd hus bu bcks h I d Bky
Hghs. u d h bs h, s ’d u ch h
h s c h. O , h dd, sd kg, d I
said, Let’s have a drink, and we went into the nearest bar. It happened to be an
old Irishmen’s bar. It was one hundred yards long, or so it seemed, and they all
had one oot up on the rail, these tough working-class Irishmen, and probably
s Scs, dkg h.
Ad k , d h’s u h h bd h h h s bgs d h hd hs gbd c. H dd’ h hs s
hs ss, h hd uckd ud hs shuds k cp. Ad h kd
, d I kd bhd h d suddy zd, Oh y Gd. Ad
t t th bck th pc d t d d tkd h, bdy
bthd u, but yu k t th thg h yu jut dd’t
x t. I gud th cud b tub b gt ut
h. I ccud h h u d h h y u
y dy hs —h ssd bg hs. Ad h s dy k
h gh hpp. I s s pssd by h.
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interviewer
Ad h s h sg y? Vy?
mailer
It can take you down. Look at poor ruman. His attitude became, I I’m notrecognized in my own time then something absolutely awul is taking place in
scy. Ad h y s shg h h ppch d k
ud h g c. I c dsy gd p us g . Yu
k, yu y h b b xh, jus xh, d sy, Why d’
jus hsy?