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14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56056)by Andrew108 » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:53 pm

I don't think the question was really answered correctly.So politely I will give my answer to what really can only be experienced.The way Rigpa is defined is as self‐originated intrinsic awareness. Self‐originated is the sameas saying unborn. Unborn describes the true nature of mind and 'unborn' here is emptiness ordharmakaya. Rigpa and it's unborn nature are inseparable. Can't have one without the other.This unity of awareness and emptiness is also called the path of self‐liberation ‐ otherwiseknown as Dzogchen. A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpa arethe same ‐ this experience is glimpsed during direct transmission from teacher to student.

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56061)by Virgo » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:01 am

Hi Andrew,

As I understand it (open to correction):

Actually, the experience of emptiness and the experience of rigpa are not the same.Realization of the emptiness of persons is the beginning of the Aryan stages on the Hinayanapath. Using the realization of the emptiness of persons as the catalyst, they traverse throughfour stages, abandoning gross afflictions along the way. The realization of the emptiness ofall phenomena is the beginning of the Stages of the Bodhisattva path‐‐ the Firsth Bhumi.There is no realization of emptiness beyong these two types. Rigpa contains understanding ofthe emptiness of all phenomena but it is not limited simply to an experience of emptiness,which would leave it equivalent to the First Bhumi on the Bodhisattva path. It is much moreprofound than that.

Andrew108 wrote:. A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpa are thesame ‐ this experience is glimpsed during direct transmission from teacher tostudent.

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I hope this helps.

Kevin


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56063)by Dechen Norbu » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:14 am

You know fellows, although this discussion is quite interesting, these are the sort of questionsone should ask to a Dzogchen master or, at least, an advanced practitioner. I say this not todismiss your attainments in any way, that may very well be deeper and more meaningful thanmine, but to avoid confusion. We are talking about very precise matters that are importantto the practice. Getting wrong ideas in this issue can bring problems to one's practice. Forgoodness sake, we are talking about recognizing rigpa and realizing emptiness... these arenot exactly nuts and bolts.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56064)by deepbluehum » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:15 am

I say you and Namdrol are both right. You are right because the direct introduction doesprovide a glimpse into emptiness. But Namdrol is also right because a practitioner still has topractice, meaning work on maintaining the mindfulness of that experience 24/7, which is thepaths, bhumis, stages, yogas, visions, etc. Of course if you realize the true nature at thatmoment you are buddha, but the minute you slip out of mindfulness, you are samsara again.Especially in the dream state, mindfulness is especially difficult to maintain. But with hardefforts put into it, receiving the blessings of your lineage, then even the dream state willtransform into dharma. The point is that the omniscient character of the dharmakaya is notseen after the direct introduction, and you definitely will realize it gradually and not all atonce. So much for sudden enlightenment.

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Andrew108 wrote:I don't think the question was really answered correctly.So politely I will give my answer to what really can only be experienced.The way Rigpa is defined is as self‐originated intrinsic awareness. Self‐originated is the same as saying unborn. Unborn describes the true nature ofmind and 'unborn' here is emptiness or dharmakaya. Rigpa and it's unbornnature are inseparable. Can't have one without the other. This unity ofawareness and emptiness is also called the path of self‐liberation ‐ otherwiseknown as Dzogchen. A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuineexperience of rigpa are the same ‐ this experience is glimpsed during directtransmission from teacher to student.












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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56066)by Malcolm » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:28 am

No, it isn't.

For this reason all of your other comments are skewed.

N



It is not the same as the realization of the path seeing.

It is an example wisdom only.

N



See what I mean, fellows? Unless we have the proper study/ practice we make a lot ofspeculations that may get us into trouble and make our practice harder.Loppon‐la is a good example of the type of practitioner we should ask these questions. It goeswithout saying that I make this remark not to flatter him, as he surely doesn't need it, but toshow how sometimes we think we are getting things right and we aren't. There are matters,especially in Dzogchen, where we really can't afford to go by our own "inventions" (no insultor anything of the sort intended).

Andrew108 wrote:The way Rigpa is defined is as self‐originated intrinsic awareness.

deepbluehum wrote:I say you and Namdrol are both right. You are right because the directintroduction does provide a glimpse into emptiness.

















That's why I stopped at this:

Rigpa contains understanding of the emptiness of all phenomena but it is not limited simplyto an experience of emptiness, which would leave it equivalent to the First Bhumi on theBodhisattva path. It is much more profound than that.



Many people make this mistake. Such people never understand Dzogchen.



My only concern is that in spite of the incredible fortune of having the possibility of gettinggood advice, people get ahead of themselves and end up making their path harder.Guys, take it from me. It doesn't pay off getting "creative" in these matters. Use all the help

Dechen Norbu wrote:You know fellows, although this discussion is quite interesting, these are thesort of questions one should ask to a Dzogchen master or, at least, an advancedpractitioner. I say this not to dismiss your attainments in any way, that mayvery well be deeper and more meaningful than mine, but to avoid confusion.We are talking about very precise matters that are important to the practice.Getting wrong ideas in this issue can bring problems to one's practice. Forgoodness sake, we are talking about recognizing rigpa and realizing

emptiness... these are not exactly nuts and bolts.

Andrew108 wrote:A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpa are thesame ‐ this experience is glimpsed during direct transmission from teacher tostudent.















you can get. It's priceless. I say this for your own sake, without wanting to impose anything.It's a friendly advice based on my experience. I could have spared a lot of wasted time if Ifollowed good advice from the start. This doesn't mean we can't get discussions going or anything of the sort. All your posts arewelcome. But pay attention to those who are more seasoned as they may have a thing of twoto make your practice way more effective.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56080)by alwayson » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:11 am

So basically,

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision = realizing emptiness

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In Mahayana, yes.

Sorry. You edited your post:

Path of seeing does equal first bhumi, and the realization of emptiness.

However the third vision is strictly a Dzogchen thing, which only happens to those on the firstbhumi or higher who are practicing Thodgal. (Namdrol‐lha can clarify if anything is incorrect).

Kevin

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alwayson wrote:Does path of seeing = realizing emptiness or not?

alwayson wrote:So basically:

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision = realizing emptiness














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Actually you have to tack on something else:

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances) = realizingemptiness



No, no, no.

The path of seeing is available to any Mahayanist or Vajraynist.

The Third Vision, isn't about seeing with nonceptual awareness. It is about developing visionto the full measure of awareness before mthar‐thug zad pa can occur.

Kevin

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yeah no

I am right

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances) = realizingemptiness

alwayson wrote:Actually you have to tack on something else:

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances)= realizing emptiness
















When you literally see ******* deities in the third vision, don't you consider that nonconceptualapperances?!

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What I am not totally keen on is your usage of the term "nonconceptual appearances" here,specifically the nonconceptual part. The Third Vision is still far away from the Fourth. Whatit boils down to is technical language here really. We are Buddhists and we have to betechnical. Namdrol is qualified to say if this is truly non‐conceptual or not being anAbhidharma expert, and so on.

Also, they all don't equal each other and are not synonymous because someone can attain thepath of seeing without ever practicing Dzogchen. Those people do not experience the ThirdVision at that time, which is a very important point.

Kevin

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56091)by ground » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:17 am

alwayson wrote:yeah no

I am right

Path of seeing = first bhumi = third vision (seeing nonconceptual appearances)= realizing emptiness

When you literally see ******* deities in the third vision, don't you consider thatnonconceptual apperances?!













by ground » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:17 am

There is no difference in that both linguistic expressions are of concern for you only becauseyou learned that there are those linguistic expressions and since you learned them you nowmay be getting obsesses about them.Can you forget them to return to the state when you haven't had learned them?

Kind regards



I hate the Pali canon


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56093)by ground » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:25 am

alwayson wrote:

What is the difference?

Namdrol wrote:

recognizing rigpa and realizing emptiness are different.

N

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds,nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, Iwill describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds forhis statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put togrief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html)











http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html



by ground » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:25 am

You may want to practice the way that leads to cessation of passions. "Cessation of passions"stands for "cessation of suffering".

Kind regards


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56095)by deepbluehum » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:47 am

Disparaging other Buddhist vehicles is heavy negative karma. Please don't do that here. It willclose your path.

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