UFO files from the UK government; DEFE 24/2050
294
description
In March 2011, the UK government released UFO-related documents, drawings, letters and parliamentary questions.
Transcript of UFO files from the UK government; DEFE 24/2050
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FILE TITLE: (Main HeadinIJ.: ~onda~eadir,Q. -;rert~~ C’1 ""~ Reference: ::J;::’~ ~~~a.("-..J \) ’i ’-~ C....." "’-1"’-1 ~........" - (prefix and Number): ~~~~~~~~\’-~ k- ~\~\ "-~~~\\~ _~’-.)~~ ’(’-- ~ R\-"-(:’:.H~- ~~C. Part: ~, I
PROTECTIVE MARKING (including caveats & descriptors): \J ~ . II Date closed: ’9-& ::3\:J"-,\ ~a<:)~Date of last enclosure: \.. C) ’(’{" ~’\’--~PART 1. DISPOSAL SCHEDULE RECOMMENDATION FOR DEFENCE INFO(EXP)-R USE ONLY
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#’"PART 2. BRANCH REVIEW
(To be fully completed at time of file closure) , ~ V(Delete as appropriate) ~/0a. Of no further administrative value and not worthy of permanent preservation, DESTRp)f’~MEDIATELY (Remember that TOP SECRET
and Codeword material cannot be destroyed locally and must be forwarded to INFgU:;X’P)-R.,-..’.
" ~.b. (i) To be retained until the end of the year for thfiJ.J wing reason(s):
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0LEGAL ...",- DEFENCE POLlC~ + OPERATIONSCONTRACTUAL D ORIGINAL COMMITTEE PAPERS 0FINANCE/AUDIT 0 MAJOR EQUIPMENT PROJECT 0 [ ]
DIRECTORATE POLICY 0 OTHER (Specify) 0 "
PPQ = 100 (Continued overleaf)
e10. A list of the titles and dates of any UFO related files destroyed by the MOD, or its predecessor ministries, since 1956 and the note by the head of S4(Air) dated December 1967 connected with such file destruction.
11 . Any briefing produced for - before or after - the SSG TV programme ’Man Alive’ on UFOs as broadcast in February 1972.
The National Archives
UFO RAF Lakenheath
MoD note states no files relating to a UFO incident at RAF Lakenheath, Suffolk in August 1956 have survived in defence archives.
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The National Archives
Report no 7
Copy of the DSI/JTIC report no 7 by MoD’s ‘Flying Saucer Working Party’ completed in 1951 and used to brief Winston Churchill in the following year. See DEFE 24/2030 for further papers on the re-discovery of this report in MoD archives following a request from Dr David Clarke in August 2000.
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It,troductlon: Historical’ . I. Unidentified IJying obj!:C(s’ were fitstreported after the \vat from Sweden in the summer of J946,;and Corsoltie I"onths.there was’aconsiderabl~ number ot alleged sightings, mosUy in Sweden, bul a few also in Norway, ~inland and Germany. The descriptions given were uslially oC som~ sort oC wingless missile travelling at very high speed, cigar-shaped.’or circular, S tetintes emlUing brighl lights, ana occasionally’sound; The’ reports aUraded. considerable ’atle/ltion’ in lite J)ress, where the objects became known ’.a~ " ghost rockets" or’" spok bombs." ~:e ::r~rt~~~ ~::.~ afte~ t.h~ summ~r~ fl946, and.:.~ ry fewhave aPrare~.~i~ce . 2. The.first.reJ’.Ort,of.a "Oying s/lu er." cam from.the..uriitedStfi~ ilJ J!J11e 1947; ,lI1eilame arose beCause. the.observer..(Mr.,.~, Arn~"~,. of B;)lse~ Idal\q} d~i~ed what he hl!d ’.seen ’as a .~ s~ucer;like di~." The report recpived much J!ublimty, and W ’qulckly’followed by..a’gr~t’man more." Since lIten reportsoC s ghtings haVe been made at intervals’in: 14r~ ’ umbers; mostly’ Cram the Unit ~ States, but some Ctom other. p rts elf tJt ’Wdt1d.in hidingGreafBritain, where .tll~r’e was a notable outbreak during th ’summer.’~n’d’ !illtumn of’ 1950. ’ rhc’. .objc~ reported have become popularly known b ’th ’ generic title" fiying s ucers:’" b’ut the des~riptiQns,giv.enhfL1( ~.ij llldednot,onIY.IlYin.g disc-lik~ Qbjt:cts of. the original II saucer" type, b!lt also wjriglFss tqrp~lI:u)r (;igar-s~ped’bodies, pherical Of baJlo~i1~shaped objects, an,d lumlou~.p’~el!!,me~a ot various ty~. , . .
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The reported ’obserVation~ ’ ia c.. n. :almost exclusively yisual; reports of l1f associated sound have been rare. In no, case ..h!lS. allY. tangibl~, na,terial, or obJt:ctive evidence. been submitted. It is therefore extremely difficult, i ,not. impos- sible, to arrive, at anything like scientific prooC oC Ute nature oC the Phelomena. Review 01 previous evidence ". ". . ’.’ .’ .
. ,4. A systematiq.and"extensivc inv.estigation of all the reported ’ncidents in the’United States was carried out between 1948 ’and 195.0 by. the U,~.Af., in cori- jun~tion with!h!, ~and Corporation" D,r.’ Hynek; a ~ell.:kri~~~..~.~~!.JI.QIL Ohio State U verslty, and other speclabst c nsultants. ’ . ~--- we have ~n. cnab.led L? ’st~dY :tw:o,!epotts (Project. "’Si~n~’. aqd ProJect~’ Qrudl!e ")~~mY..e.mR.au.Q1LQUricl,dehts...:up to the b. g1~lIilt’C?L-_ 19ft..__ Oc.-1Iz.1’WN I"RETAIN ii N I ""_," "m "
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foJIQ;s: .~n th~ ~call~in vlai1 il~l~ti~I~S ,~~ r946, Project ." ~r,ud~e, ’.’tportsis .... " The Swedish’Defence Stall’ lldUc(ed a’ coinprehensiv st ~y IIJC the’l:! rly incidents. Several thousand reports were Ihoroughly investigated and plotted, with resultant onclusions.thatall.evidence obWned. C sightings wa~explicable in terms oC astronomical.. henomena.... " . ..... .."l: .. : . 6.. .Deali~g with’ reports. cf. ~i"Ul~:.Uni.t :Stat~;, ~roj~t ’AI O!’ud~.1 q~otea the opll110n of’ the Rand .Corporatlon after an examltlal10n of 172 IIiCi;i1tS:’ II to date, we have ’Cound notlung ’whiclf;Would’ seriously COnlrovert simp e"ra dnill explanations of lIt~ vati.~us ph~d~~ei1; in.terms ’of b~109risi. cb’iven,io .I’ ir!:r~C~, planets.. meteors. lts of.paper; optlcall~lusJ(,)ns’ .pr~c.t!ca" JO. ke. .~$; YChOPitI;10IQgl’~’ . l’Cports and the like’" , . .’ ’. . ,.... ,," .’ .,....’ . ’.’
’... D;. Hynek’ inv~tigilt~"2~8 .i~.tid~nt$, ~n~COliclude(f~h .t’ a proxjma eiy. ’J3. pc?r cent. were: astrort ~tI~.~tll: ’~rYI~tdeg~ees .0C ~roba~I!ltY:;)1 per. cen . were npt asll:onomll:al but suggesti~e of o.t~eD,:.~itp)anatlons, s)Jcli as. blJ.’~~; Tocke ,bal!o.ons, ordinary aircraft, &<:.i th : rell1all~lDg’ 30 per cent: elther"lacked sufficicwevidence or. thc.evidc:nee offe~ sugge.stdd u expht~iitip..qIiQugh.sQm~ ot ’t1t~’ mig~t coli- cclv.ably be.astro rmc:al::....,.,.., ’,".’. .:. ~"’’’i.’;’: ., ’. . .... I .. .: . "’" . ’. ... , ,.’ ~ .:: .:1. .~:.::: ....1. ",_ -,’\’ .. . .
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. reliabl~.’ W~~. ps to~i al..iind physiol~gicat. fa~9i’far,e t~~~~Jnto ton~id~rafh)!1, . ,t~e.,,9P!~lq~ ~~ ~~P,~~ ,th~~ all. t,h~.I~cl~en~. ~ als b,t; ,~~I.~iI~\lf~’~~P~~~~~~~"
’.::.,",:’ V"~ln, h~:l,1I r~,speta u.la ~n identli;’,of.\~I~iCh:-’I,1IUC~.h.’ ~~.:b~~.: ’ade’ ~~n. tly . ~n’ ~e ’Br~lish’ pr~ . !i~;’p~b’~catIQ~s;h.ave.. ~.~"’: fpIl.y’ .~xplamC:d;:’ wo examples ima:y be q oted.-.}’" ,,’ , ’."". ’,’." ’. ," .~:’I’ "." :’ ". .:’ ’. "....: ." \ ’-’; ’" . The mclden t Fort KnQx;KenttckY’;’n )anl,lary’ i !.J48; which ~ ~sed the de~th ’. ofLieuten nt ~a~t,ll, U.S.A.F., is fullyanalysed,.and all the evide~ collated in the." .Grudge ’:~:i’epoi’t.’,,’The conclusion IS reached ~hat without any d~~l whatever
’. ....Lieliten nt .’Man.tel!)1’I~t. J,!s. de t.". whit,e .pl,lrS,I,I.\~IUhe planet Ve~us, . ChiCh was of
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We have’ been informed, i ’cnvei’satioriwith a melIlber f the nited States "investiga~ing-:,te~l,1I, Jha~, the even mQre sensational report of the ~is<;overy.’ of a . cras~ ’.’ .6YI!lg,..sauccr /\lul1. of thC’rc~ains of: ~ry . sm~11 beirigs" jas ultimately . admitted by Its .author to. have b,eena’complete fabnca.hon:..... . . .~’ .
. ’\". 8;’.’.’ The . ’~ dr~dge"~ rcport I ricludes: a: ,. rr "e~cy, d~tributi ri " curve of the . I’~~rts r,incideMs reeeived betw.een.May:I947 and December 1948., This sh ws a ’:marked te~d~cY’~owards ~aks’ in tI~e fev.: weeks i.m’!1e~iat~ly followi g an jncid~nt ,. which ’recelved’wld . publicity, and IS of mterest m.mdlC8tmg the e ent to which
. sightings. in~y. be ’ps~holo&ical in origin. ’. ", . .’ .’ .
..’;,’ ;’..:9:: \’ Thc’ ’~9 " op lusion rea~hed by. the. A.~ericans. is . that.,n reports. of umdentl!~)I>?ng i ~jpcts may. .be categoncal as C:lther-7’ . : I.
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., ’. .-." 0> .misinter re~ati ri of various convention l objects’ (e,g., ~ir aft,’ bal1oons, ..," ’:" ;: ’.i. ntetcors"or’mefeorites, stars, firbal1s);.... ’ . , ’.: .": .
’,’. :(2)!’ :fomf9fmais,hysteria; or’ .:.. .... ".’" ....
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. ’".’1 I ’,,’,:,’ -:":’ -.t’ ’. ’. .,.,. ~’.in"el,;g tion.o{;nc;(l~", in the United Kingdom ’ . .. _:--,dO,.. During.the summer and autumn of. 1950 the British press gav considerable ,
. PUblicity.t.O reports’of’aUeg~ $ightinJs of I~mjnous bodi.es.tr~~eIling l.t high ~Peed’ . usually after dark, but occasionally In dayh~ht. , .The, AIr MinIStry.: a so receIVed! a _ ,Dumber of letters .(rom. members. of, the pubhc’ with similar reports. . One of these, . "from’ a:-:~oComoti~~’\!ir~m~!1.at. Derby, ,who ,w.s’ cIerly..’a careful and accurate ’. bser~er. gave ;an;cxceJI.cnt’ desaipt!on .of.’:wh.~t,. waS’.’undoubt~ly a:mcteorite. We . havc’not’attemp(,any’systematlc I vcstlgattonof 1\11 the ’eVIdence presented, but "’can’ find no ~n’ fOr’Supposing.tl\at any of thc’ phenomena repo~ed cannot be :. simi1arl,r e~p1ain j In cer~in cases; .when observations were repor at. approxi-
. ~, ate!y ’tc’.sll,me ’tim~ ’(rom’ widely sepatated localities, this was un oubtcdly the :: ~xp!~!1aton. . :. ": ’" ’;, ! . .: ’.’ ,: ,’. . . .
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" ’11.’ "Thr inc~de/lts were reported officially by experienc;C:d officers from ,.R.A.F. Stations.i. These have been Investjgated in a$ IIIpch detail as. is possible with reports of visual observations. .. . . ’. .
, .. .... "12, . On ]st’June;’19S0; the pilot or. a Meteol"reP9rted on’ landing at’’rangmere . . that a1’liJ3O; while Dying at 2.0,000 feel on IIn easterl:y co rse ’over l~. Portsmouth area, he had sighted aq pbject ~ravcl1ing’at very high’,speed ona reci rocal course, ’I;OOO-2,OOOf~t above’him and rougbly 1,200 yards ~.s.arboard:,’,H described the .. object as ’circular’, alld ot’bright. inetalU appcaran ’. ’li ’could’ not give any real ~ timld~ f’its $pced~’ b’ut~hQugh(’jt’. ~ight ’bt.about.800 knots.: He had ’obsetved .
. J it ’foriab’ lit!l5’~~ nds.:iju..ln’g’whictt: ri d’ h ;h~(t; looked’ way: t 110ft and ’b k . "~:~~~~:I’:.’:;~~~ i1$~~~W; l~::~~~~~~~~R:~.;;~;~;i#~:~~.’ ~;~r~: ;.~t ’~~~ .
-’tha~ lat’’’tiout the’ ,ame"tltne"1Is’-flie’ llofs ’rep,qr[ ,.the’, DU’YC nttoter ’and’ ,three . J~raij ’ ~ta~ :’h :’ b~i’ve~!laVI’I~~usiali: r’esP k’ {,the’,P;P.t ’;/w icli’a~~d ::tobC’.due~’io<~"~rgei~ mi?ving’’ ;: 1,~()()’!1~65() ’\ai ~~’fir.st~" pprpa iJ)g"’ nd I then’ ::.reiii$’ troiD. t t;~tat~~n:’j The~’C~ntto~,c,i:.sta:t~JhatJl1 ~r’es~nse"~II~k~(i: ~o be , very- t~lcIt.. lea’ymg’ mort ~a!tetglow ~hall’ ’ u~uallrespo se :behind:’:"lJ e~ operator, observlDg ~ a se~rate dIsplay, S~I~ ~~~t .It was " ,slim, shorf’lInd ’weaker than
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.’. -: ,.......A~ t11~ ~ing.cd"r~. or~ e~~~at, target’ . o."14)av..C:.~lli d Y{it~ ’~~ cou~~: of . !b.~. o~J~t reported .~y’; ~b~ ~f:t f.p,llot, ,all th,t: ;P,<<iople ~n~rnea wefl"te~x!ew
. by a. JI1C~ber’ o~ ~~~b Brith~~, :F.!~btel’ m!fl!trl~\ ftqJ!l: wlJ~’ r .. rt !lie. a ove dllta bave bc;Cn tak.en...1t. w~ ~tlltihshe<! t a(th~re;.w.as.IJ1’lact. I~~repancy. of
; f~~I~~~:I\~:~:~~~nt~~~ \~~~~~t 1~~~~~;~:~f~f~~~:~i:dC:: ’~ ~t~~ ~:: .~p.conn~on betwc;c;n ,tb~ ,unus\lal. P.pJ.. ~e~P!>l\se:ancJ..tI~c;.p.ilorsvi~UI’II’Qbservalion. .;;.;i,; We )>C!lieve: .tI,1a~:,tt,e. r!i4.ar .r~pon~e. aJ):~,ve.ry’"silJ11?ly.e,!plai\’l!j<l as,ue"to ant Cerence Crom another transmitter, a phenomenon which bas; .~n; fr~uen~JY
. ~bs.erved, and )Vhich. iSidescri~. !n:c;letail.in.ApPt\ndi~ A.,.;I!o: ia;;mptsible to be entirely definite about the. pilot’s report. Assumipg that .h ",as: np. me.rely tbe victim of an optical illusion, the most probable eX,\Jlana\ion"wlilchis orne out.by his4escription oC theobjet. as" circular>,’. hnplymga .sp~i!ri I
:.~’ y.t.j~,.thi1i he saw a meteorological ball~n and ~reat~y over-estima~.i~:s~, :W,. ,can .find..no
reaso.n what~ Cor adopting any Jess simple hypo~hes!~.. ,t. ill: .; ......, ’: ...: :,:’ 13. The remaining two incidents were reported. froin tht:R;yal,’Aitcrart
Establishment, Farnborougb,’ and tbe officers concerne ;;~r ! in erviewed by members oC this Working’Party.. . .’ <’ \’.’~;!II’:.’ 11 .’ ,hi’
" .1" I Lt.. Hubba(d, a"experienced pilot; said that a.tI127...~~ .14th tUgust, 1950, he and twO otber officers..on the airfield .heard. a suMuw..~hu~ing .noise,oolike; a mOdel Diesel ~~t.o.r, .which caused them to search the sky ,9Y.erbe.4,.. . The weat.~er was.fine and vIsibility good. The other two o~cers saw. m)tl)J!181 ,bt,it~F,/~t..Hu.bb"rd, who alone was wearing sun-glasses, stales Ihat he sawj".a}rnQst .dJrC~~tIY:.overbead at first sightin$" an. object wbich.he’~escribes ~ a Itat disc,’ light ~rl’*FY in colour, about. SO feet m dlame~er al an estimated hel~f. of:S;~:’fi;e~. ""JjC;. ~tated.’ tb,at he kept It under observaUon Cor 30 seconds, durmg.whlch’pcflOG’lt’travelled,"ata spCed estimated at 800-1,000 m.p.b., on a beading of IOO~,.I~ uti,g.a series of S-turns, oscillating so thl!-t light reRection came Crom di1ferel\t.segmeJlt~ as it moved.
We have no reason to doubt that F/Lt. Hubbard hQn~Uy.d~tibed.his own impression of. what be saw,’ but we find it impossibleit~.ibelieve~that;a most unconven on,al aircraft, oC exceptional speec;l, could have travell~ at no great altitude, in the middle of a fine summer morning, over a populous aqd air-minded district like Farnborough, without attracting the attentiOJiI or’ ’more
’ than: oile
.observer, We conclude, eith~r that F/Lt, Hubbard. was .the’victimj?f an: optical illusion, or. that he. observed some quite normal type of .air~raft~~ rC(;eiv~.him- self about Its shal>> and speed. . .. .. .. ’. ’.’ ’p,
. 14. F/Lt. Hubbard was’ also concerned in tbi: other":i~~id~htjhen;:~t 1609 ’on 5th September, 1950, he was standin$ on the watcb-tow# ’’Yth’fiV~’ ’ther o.m~rs, looking so.uth in. anticipation of the dISplay by the Hawlt,1it J()~J.:’ :The sky \yRS ’about 3/8 obscured, witb a stratkumul"us cloud base a~ 4.QOO.feet. . At.about the’
_ . saijle moment they ~II’ ii,aw, at a!1’ es~imated rang or 1,<,)::-I~. ;mi,~~,:’.: : obj~t: w~~cb . tbey desci’ibed ’as bemg. a ’ atdlsc, IIgbt pearl.grey In C9lpu,~,: a~~..’ ~bOl
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Conclusicms, cmd, Recommendatiolls, ::’" " " . .
. IS. When lhe only malerial a;; il’ bl~ is’ mass of purely SUi’eclive evidence,
ili~ ; m~jbJIf tQ giv~ .aJly’~hing . like. sciel!lin~ proof, lh!lt thepl\en, ,mena t!~rve,
are, r’ai’e not,: caused ,by something entirely- novel;: illichas’ an’ ircraCl oC’ extr ~ .,
terres~riaL origin, tJev l ped b~(~eings~.I\~nown. t~ ,u~ O!llines mor~ adyancec;l than anythtn~. ’we have thqu~ht of.. ,We ’ar~;, ,howev~r; ~atlsfied thaqthebulk
of the
obser~atlonS’ reported dp not need ’such an. exp,IanatJon, and can ~e !1CCC)u~ledJor
much; mor~ si\11p\),;’ There is. a very oW sc;ientilic’ principle, usu~lIy altrib~ted t
Williarn.of Occam, whjch staleS.th~qb ,nost probablehypotbesis is 1\1e simplesl,.’. neCessatyio~plain:theobservations.’ .... ’.
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. ’We ~lieve tbat .tbis priri iple ihouldb ’applied. to. th present ..c;ase, and
accordingly cOnclude that all’tbe observalions reported were ’du~ to ’one or. otber
of tbe following causes: - . ..’ .1.’
.’. (I) Astronomical.or meteorologica1.pbenomena of known fYpes.
,(2) Mistaken identification <<;>f’ convention.al aircraft, banoon}, birds, or other normal or natural objects. . . "
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. . (3) Opticlll illusions .and psycbological delusions.
.(4)De~ibe.rat~ hoax~. . ..:.:.... .’
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We consider that no progress will be made by attempting fu her investigation
f unco-ordlnated and. subjective’ evidence; and.that’positive’l"fSults could. only be. obtained by.organising throughout the,. country,
or ,the \\forld. continuous
observation of .the !.skies by. a. co-ordinated: network’ of visual olJ~erversi equipped witb pb lograpbic,apparatus,; and. supple!"ented by ~ network :1 of rad.ar statio.ns
.and’sound locators. We sho!1ld regard thIS, on’the eVidence so ~ar available, as a
si,ngularly pro~tI~ enterprise.’ We accor~ingly. re.commend ve~. .strongly. that. no further’Jnvestlgatlon, of ’reported:’mysterlous . aerial
phenomena ’be .undertaken, unless and until some’ma,terial eyidence becom~ a.vailabl~. I....., ’.:"~".. . ’,’ Me"opoleBuildin~s. W.C.-2.
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With reference to the unusual response observe(.l w rt\in~ on 1st Jil[i~19~O,
it is suggested that the signal observed. was received directly f~om another radar
transmitter, possibly ship-borne, in the. Portsmouth.,Isle; of. Wigbt. area.,. This .will be termed the "Western’" transmitter....,
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isohronous ’with those of the Wartling set" and that the pqlse of. the former
was occurring anything’ up. to, say, \’2 milliseconds minus. t~1 transmission time
later than tbat’ of the. latter, the received signal would be visible on the P.P.l.
dis’play. " Moreover,- unless lhe .~ Western" transmitter were ~ery far away it is prob’ablc’’tb t tbe received ’signal would be of large amplitude
and would therefore,
as staled in the.report, :~"appear very thick lea,vingmore afte1gl0W than a usual
response behind." .’.
,’" It is reasonabl~ to suppose.that tbe repetition rales mentioi1~ above would not remain. identical for. more tbana few seconds;:’
A. relativel~., smidl drift in the repetition raleS will produce a considerable ’change jn the ti e interVal ’betw~n tbe’ transtnitter :pulse and
. the firing instant: of thci r ceiver tim base. This would
result in.a’:large..displacement. of the. received signalaloD! .the .scan.whicb would.
be ’i!itei’ reted. a~ a high s~. mo~ement’ f.the’,~’; t1\l}et ~. in the 1~,,:dia1 ireclion.
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. that of the: Warthng
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.. V!’estern ’:’..repet tion’ ate~ (ell’ below" t~at., of" the’~ artling’ se~... the !lM rget, ~~.’ wo~!d appc;ar to .,open
.range rapidly.:,)t m y’ fut~her ’be: noted tbat’:on .would’ex~t’ re ections f-rom . objetS (ltJlIs, &c.) relatively’ close to, ,the’
.. Western t’1.lraitsmiU . r to be oC sufficient
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’.( While on the ti erarige at Tipner..P rtsmouth, an’!>bject baving the appearance oLa "’Flying S~ucer" was’ observed. in the’:dista. nee: Visibility. was~ gO~" there being acloudles~ sky and’ bright sunshine;, ~e objecfwas,loca~ed’ and held by telescope ()( :20 magnif\cation),’ ~nd gave appearance’ of ing a cirular shining’ dQc’mov ’on aregular’f1ight,PBth, .It’was only-aftc;r. ~servalion had’ kept.
. fo{severa1.minut~ and the’ l t!lde’of the object’ changed so’that it did n t reflect . thesunlighUo ~ 9b~er’s eyc. that it was i4entified 8$ being a’ .,erfcct1Yi normal ~irciaft.;. :~.’, :.’! ’. .’.. ,’, .’ ’.’.’:..’ .
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~.REPORT OF AN UNEXPLAINED AERIAL SIGHTING
1. Date and time of sighting. 20 February 2005(Duration of sighting.) No time given.
2. Description of object. Just said saw a flying object.(No of objects, size, shape, colour,brightness, noise.)
3. Exact position of observer. Not given.Geographical location.(Indoors/outdoors,stationary/moving. )
4. How object was observed. With the naked eye.(Naked eye, binoculars, otheroptical device, camera orcamcorder.)
5. Direction in which object was Was seen over East Coker, Somerset.f"Irst seen.(A landmark may be more helpfulthan a roughly estimated bearing.)
6. Approximate distance. Not given.
7. Movements and speed. Not given.(side to side, up or down,constant, moving fast, slow)
8. Weather conditions during Not given.observation.(cloudy, haze, mist, clear)
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124:: Arbitration f. 18 JANUARY 19-79] Bill [H.L,l 1246
Lord HACKING: I say notbing, but Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. h:~g Ic:v:;: to wit!J(:raw.
AfLer Clause 5, iu,E’rllht" following new cJause: Am!?/ufment (~f’Frincipaf Act rd ing ta
apIH’ ;f1nenT of ne1f arb;trators (" . At the end of seclion 23 of the principal
Act th fl: shall be added the foiowia~: .. Where an Arbitrator or Umpire has been removed tmdcr SubS ,ction 23(1) abO\’ , any party to the re erence mey serve on tl1’3 other parties to the rderence, a written n.)tic~. to appoint, or, a~ tbe case may l){~, to concur in appointing, an Arbitrator or Umpire in place of the Arbitrator or Umpire so removed. and if the a~’pointmcnt is not made within seven clear days after the service of the notice. the High Comt 01 a Judg-:: tbereof may, Otl applica- tion by the party W:10 gave thc notice, appoint an Arbitrator or Umpire who shall have the like Dowt:rs to act within the refercr:ce and mak an award as had the Arbitra,,-’r or Umpire who has been removed.".").
The noble Lord said: Before I withdraw this Amendment, may I mention thai I drafted tbis Amendment withii1 the: ambit of the new clause that I am proposing to replace Section 23. It is more appropriate House resumed: Bill reported with an to have the appointment of another ’ Amendment. arbitrator under terms (which other terms ’I ,
come from other clauses of this Bill)
f than to use the terms used in Section 25 ’ .
of the Arbitration Act 1950. I beg to UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS move. .
7.7 p.m.’ The Earl of CLANCARTY rose to
call attention to the increasing number of sightings and landings .’)n a world- wide scale of unidentified flying objects (UFOs), and to the need for r..n tm- governmental study of UFOs; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: It is with much pleasure that I introduce this debate this evening about unidentified flying objects-known more briefly as UFOs and sometimes as flying ~aucers. I understand that tbis is the first t!m~ the subject of UFOs h:~5 been debated in yoU! Lordships’ House, $0 that tbis is indeed a unique occasion. Before pro~eeding fur- ther I think I should declare an 1nterest, in that I have written a number of books about UFOs. I am ~rateflll to those noble Lords who are g ing to follow me in this debate and I am sure that it wiH be a most stimulating discussion.
1.4 ~,j~cn(11nent, by l~~a v{:~ ’P/ithcIra\v!1.(Amendment No. 27 not /1’o\’ed.j
7.3 p.m. . Lord HACKING moved Am~ndmel1t
No. 28:
The LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment alJowing the court to replace an arbitrator removed for misconduct is, I am advised, unnecessary. Section 25 of the 1950 Act deals with the matter and gives the court adequate powers to replace a removed arbitrator. I do not know whether that covers the point that the noble Lord has made or not; but if be is still reverting to the use of the concept of misconduct in this connection, then, as I have said, I am wilJing to look at that again in other connections.
Lord HACKING: I will leave the matter there. I have already mentioned to the noble and learned Lord that I believe these words are better than those in Section 25. That is the reason why I drafted them. 1 beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Lord HACKING moved. A.r.n. ndmcnt ND.29:
After Clause 5, ins’~rt the fcH0wing new cbuse: Amendmt’lIt of $. 1 (..) of Al’bitra:;()!1 A{’t ! 975 (" . In SUbS’3C[iun 1(4j Arbitrati0I1 .^.ct 1975
after "i" a party" tb:re shaH be added the words ., to the procei~d;ngs ". "). The noble Lord said: shall briefly
<id rcss the Committee on Amendment~ 29 and 30. The nobJe and learne:! Lord has already replied to my Amendment No. 17 which is related to these Amend- ments and he has left me in a pos ion of suspension. I do not know the noble and learned Lord’s mind but I am haPDv to rem am in suspension’ until the Re ~it stage or until such time: as he is able to take me ou t of it. I beg to move.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: I hope that the noble Lord will not suffer unduly in a state that I prefer to can suspended animation rather than suspension.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amc!1dment30 not moved.]
Remaining clauses agreed to.
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1247 Unidentified [LORDS] Flying Objects 1248 Before speaking about the need for an in 1947, millions of people all over the intra-governmental study of UFOs, which world have seen the UFOs. This brio>!> is the basis of mv Motion being debated me to the class of witnesses that see
today, I think it" advisable to give your UFOs. It is true that occasiona!ly one Lordships some background to this fas- gets the odd crank or hoaxer; but the cinating subject of UFOs. I shall briefly majority of witnesses are sincere people. cover a little history, the classes of wit- Th~n again many witnesses are pilots, nesses, the characteristics of UFOs and polIce officers, coastguards, radar opera- some important sightings, and then I shall tors-in short, trained observers. Manv deal with the vital subject of the attitude astronauts have seen UFOs. Man:;’ of governments to these important people ask me: "Why is it that astron- phenomena. omers do not see them?" The answer
is that they do. In a letter published in the Although UFOs have come to the fore Daily Telegraph on 4th January last year, since the end of the last World War, I listed eight well-known astronomers who there are reports of them all through had seen UFOs, including Dr. Clyde history. Among the papers of the late Tombaugh, discoverer of the planet Pluto. Professor Alberto Tulli, former director of the Egyptian Museum at the Vatican, Now a few words, my Lords, about the was found one of the ea:-liest known UFOs themselves. Actually, the name records of a fleet of flying saucers. It "flying saucer" given by the Press in was written on papryus long ago in 1947 was a misnomer as they come in all ancient Egypt-actually, it was at the sorts of shapes and sizes: cigar, oval, time of Thutmose III, circa 1504 to 1450 disc, sphere, doughnut, crescent and BC, who, with his army witnessed the tadpole shaped. You name it, my Lords, sighting of what we today would call the list is endless. I should like to say a UFOs. few words about their characteristics.
UFOs often have ,-,:ery bright lights and sometimes when in flight change colours all the way through the colour spectrum. Sometimes the light from a UFO is so intense that its shape is obscured from view. This light energy is so powerful that witnesses have been burned on the face and hands if in too close a proximity to a UFO.
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Now, I am not going to bore your Lordships with accounts of UFOs in every century because I want to get on to the very interesting things happening today. In modern times things began to happen during World War II when both aBied and German pilots saw strange circular lights around their planes. We called them Foo fighters. Both Allied and German pilots thought that they were secret weapons of the other side. After’ the war, on 24th June 1947, an American called Kenneth Arnold, piloting his own plane, was on a mercy mission trying to find another aircraft that had crashed somewhere in the Cascade Mountains in the State of Washington. Suddenly, he spotted nine gleaming objects, crescent shaped, flying in a zigzag fashion between his plane and the mountains. He managed to calculate their speed because he was able to get a fix-I think that is the tech- nical term-between two mountain peaks, Rainier and Baker. It appeared that the objects were travelling at some 1,400 miles per hour-a very fast speed in 1947.
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Some time after landing, Arnold, in answer to a question from the Press, des.:ribed the motion of the flying objects as being like saucers skimming over water. Next day the Press headlined them as "flying saucers". Since Arnold’s sighting
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Another characteristic of the UFOs’ is eiectrical interference with various machines. UFOs have been notorious for stopping cars at short range. The driver will hear his engine splutter and it stops running. Besides cars. many other machines have’ been affected, including aircraft, motor cycles, buses, lorries and tractors. UFOs are said to be the cause of some of the power blackouts in the USA, Mexico and other countries. Indeed, UFOs have been seen flying along power lines in the USA just before black-outs. Furthermore, I have a picture on the wall of my study at home of a UFO doing just that!
Now, I will mention one or two of the more impressive sightings since the war. On the 29th June, 1954, a BOAC Boeing stratocruiser " Centaurus " had taken off from New York for London. Dinner had been served. The time was just after sunset when the skipper, Captain James
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How~ the p There ones. out to who j force i five m stayed 80 mii object radio Labra. in the Bay s All the the fig disapp ones w a crew saw the
In 1 . Comm Ncrth UFOs’ Several storage were s dimme, One of ever 0
report Levy a ,27th F give ’j’C A very Tehera1 telepho the Ira; tom jet some 7’ about J of the I instram pilot h: base.
A se, faster tl began t and so extraor a secor big one The jet ,air~to-a No sue panel \’ systems only 011
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1249 Unideittified [ 18 JANUARY 1979] Flying Objects 1250 Howard, f tst sighted the UFOs. Some of ~vas to make his escape. He put his p!ane the passengers by then w<?re asleep. in to a d!’,’c. Then something extraordinary There was one big object with six ~;maJ!er happened. The second UFO turned around ones. Captaili Ho\\’ard [jointed them and went back inside the" mother ship ". out to his co-pilot, First Officer Lee Boyd, The)et pilot’s instruments started working who flew with the famous Pathfinder agaIn. So once more he tried to Dursue force n World War II. The objects were the UFO, but it moved away too r pidJy, five miles from the" Centaurus’". They and so the Phantom jet returned to base. stayed parallel with the aircraft for 80 miles. From time to time the big There are literallv vast numbers of these object appeared to change shape. The astounding reports. Indeed, my Lords, radio officer checked with Goose Bay, this worldwide UFO invasion of every Labrador, to see if any other aircraft were country’s air space is of growing importance in the area and was told, No. Goose and therefore I suggest that Parliament Bay sent a fighter up to investigate. keeps a continuous watch on the situation. All the crew saw the objects. Just before J have thought of one way of doing this. the fighter arrived, the objects began to In the same way that there is a House of disappear, and it seemed that the smaller Lords Defence Study Group ably chaired ones went inside the large one. Altogether, by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, perhaps a crew of eight and 14 of the 51 passengers we could have a House of Lords UFO saw the UFOs. Study Group to meet periodically. If
any of your Lordships are interested, please let me know!
I should like to touch on the attitudes of Governments towards this subject and to stress the need for an intra-govern- mental study, which is the object of my Motion. I am only going to talk about four Governments, your Lordships will probably be pleased to know. First, let us take a look at the United States. I think that one of the reasons for " playing down" UFOs some years ago in the United States was the fear of panic among the public. Thi<; was partly based on an actual panic that did occur in 1938 due to a very realistic broadcast by Orson Welles of H. G. Wells’ War o[ the Worlds. Thousands of people left their homes.
However, after the war, the United States Air Force investigated pilots’ reports without any debunking. Then the Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA, stepped in. The CIA controls the intelli- gence departments of the United States military services. They ordered the United States Air Force to clamp down on UFO reports. That was, I believe in 1953 and it has been going on ever since. Pilots who reported seeing UFOs were ridiculed, and after a time other pilots did not report them for fear of damaging their reputation. We had high hopes during President Carter’s election campaign tha t there was a strong possibility of a break- through to the truth about UFOs. He disclosed during his campaign that he had seen a UFO a few years previously in Georgia, and he added that if he ~ot into
In November 1975, at Strategic Air Command Bases in Michigan, Montana, Ncrth Dakota and Maine, a number of UFOs were sighted over a 13 day period. Several were hovering near nuclear weapons storage areas. When interceptor planes were sent up to investigate, the UFOs dimmed their lights and became invisible. One of the most amazing UFO incidents ever occurred in Septembr, 1976. A report of this event written by Geoffrey Levy appeared in the Daily Axpress on 27th February, last year. I shall try and give you his account in my own words. A very large glowing object was seen over Teheran, Iran. Hundreds of witnesses t lephoned the authorities. At 1.30 a.m. the Iranian Air Force scrambled a Phan- tom jet to investigate the UFO which was some 70 miles away. As the jet reached about half the distance to the UFO, all of the Iranian plane’s communications and instrument systems malfunctioned. The pilot. had no alternative but to return to base.
A second Phantom jet took off flying faster than the speed of sound. The UFO began to move at a very fast speed indeed, and soon outpaced the jet. Then, an extraordinary thing happened. Suddenly a second smaller UFO came out of the big one, and headed straight for the jet. The jet pilot tried to release an AIM-9 air-to-air missile at the glowing object. No success at all. The weapons control panel was not working and all electronic systems were out of action. There was only one thing for the pilot to do, and that
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(LORDS]’ Flying Objects 125~ The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of King~bridge, kindly confirmed to me in his reply that the GEPAN unit-those are the initials of the group-had been set up under the French Ministry of
Industry, Commerce and Artisans at the
centre in Toulouse. M. Galley also added that the gendarmerie were playing a very important part in UFO investigations
questioning witnesses and examining burnt circular marks on the ground where
UFOs had landed; or were alleged to
have landed. So the French have been
taking it all seriously and keeping their
own people informed. Nobody panicked
and people did not rush like lemmings
into the sea. ~
,
1251 Unidentified
[The Earl of Clanca "ty.]
the White I-Ious’~ he would release to the public ail the lJFO information in
the
Pentagon. Unfortunately, that election
pledge has not been fulfled. I
What has been happening in the Soviet i
Union? Probably the leading ufologist i in that country is Doctor Felix Zigel, \ Professor of Higher Mathematics and \
Astronomy at the MoscoW Aeronautical I
Institute. For a long time he had been \ trying to form a big UFO
research group
on a worldwide scale. Many UFOs have \’ been seen over the Soviet Union.
In July,
August, September and October 1967, for
instance, giant space ships were seen over
various parts of the USSR by astronomers
and other witnesses. On 10th November Is it not time that Her Majesty’s
of that year, it was announced that there Government informed our people of
was to be a full investigation of UFOs. what they know about UFOs? The
This was announced on Russian te1e- UFOs have been coming in increasing
vision. The operation was to be headed numbers for 30 years since the war, and
b~ Major Ge~~ral Anatoly Stolyerov, \ I think it is time our people were told the
’wIth Doctor Z1~1 as Number Two. \ truth. We have not been invaded from
Thousands o~ U,rO cases :vere. to be I outer space. Most incidents have not
analysed by SCleJ1tlsts and SO’:let Air Force \ been hostile. Indeed it is us, the earthlings,
officer~. However, the RusSian Academy who have fired on them. There may have
for SCiences came down h3:,"l on the n~w \ been a few allegedly hostile incidents,
but
UFO gro~p. and on 27th. Febr~ary, 1908, I maintain that if there is a disturbing
Pra.vdayuohsh~d the official attitude of the element in a phenomenon which is pretty
authontles, ana the cover-up was on. \ friendly on the whole, we should
be told
There is, however, one country which the truth. ’Y"hatever the .tr1;1th is, I am
can be relied upon to take a hue independ- sure that an ll1fon:ne~ ru~hc IS a prepared
ent from others over many matters, and, one.
~no~her thmg. It I~ on record that UFOs proved to be 110 exception. In \ ~oth s.lghtmg a11~ landmg reports are February, 1974, .he then French Minister \ mcreasmg all. the time. Just suppose. the
of Defence, vL Robert GaHey, was inter- ufonauts d~clded. to make mass landmgs
viewed entirely about UFOs on France- \ tomorrow I~ this country-there could
Inter radio station. The interviewer was well be pal11c here, because our
people
Jean Claude-Bourret. At the time there \ have not been prepared.
was tremendous publicity in France, but
for some reason our newspapers did not \
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, is to
even mention the broadcast. M. Galley reply for Her Majesty’s
Government at
stated that the UFOs were real b’..lt the end of this debate. I should like to
admitted that it was not known where ask the noble Lord whether he will
thev came from. He said that since 1954, contact his right honourable friend the
there had been a unit in the French Minister of Defence about the possibility
Ministry o Defen:.::e collecting UFO of giving a broadcast interview about
reports. Some of this material was sent to UFOs, as his counterpart across the
the National Centre for Space Studies in Channel did in 1974. That would go a
Toulouse, the French equivalent of the long way to discredit the view
held by a
American NASA. In this Centre there lot of people in this country that
there
was also a un t-a scientific one--studying is a cover-up here and that in some
way
both UFO sighting and landing reports. we are playing along with the
United
States over this. I should also like to see
an intra-governmental study of the UFOs.
All Governments should get together and
pool their knowledge about UFOs, and
the results should be passed on to the
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A little over a year ago, I received some ,
information that this particular unit was \
under go’/ernment sponsorships and so I \
put owl1 a Question for Written Answer.
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1253
public. your Lc and I be
7.29 p.n Lord
bound speech wonder holding on thi audien< having Lord (
of tho’ I may anywa right ~The
suppa intra-t mean~ betwe woule’ Unite suppc think view to J\
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tho:,;! ones
i \ of r in tt mys, I be fron uni,i
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I I h tim airc hav I 1 si~J sel( CObe we inf It wI: us
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rne in -those been
ry of t theadd da very ;:.tions, burnt "\vhere ’~d to - been ~ their ilicked mlngs
desty’s )le of
The .-easing ir, and Jld the :i from \’e not :h1ings, :y have its, but turbing
; pretty be told . I am ,:epared rd that \"ts are ose the mdings could people
:i, is to nent at like to
ile will ~nd the ssibility about
)SS the Id go a ld by a It there me way United
e to see : UFOs. her and )s, and to the
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1253- Uilide/lt(ficd [18 JAi’~UARY 1979] H)’;ngObjects 1454
puh1ic. Finally, I shou1d like to thank I as I say, t.hat these unexnlained sightings your Lord~hips for your kind attention, could be-and, indeed,’ would be-ex- and 1 be:,! to move for Papers. plained, if Wf: had morc kno’.vledcrc about
I thcra; for example, b. eHer
.
phot~gnlphs. 7.29 p.m. How many dear photographs of UFOs Lord TREFGARNE: My Lor s, 1 am i have your Lordshi;}s scea? AliI have scen
bound to say that I face making this ’ are hazy, fudgy photogi’aphs \vhich could, speedl with some trepidation. I had 01" cOl<ld not, be g lluinc.
wondered whether ViC could justify the holding of what is iJj cJTect a full deb,lle
Ufologists often rely upon radar infor-
on thf., matter; but having seen the mation for evidence in their case, but I
audience we have tonight, and indeed must tel.1 your Lordships that radar plays
h . more trIcks even than the camera, and I
avmg heard the speech of the nobk Earl, d . Lord Clancarty, I can see that that sort ,~not believ~ that rad"r infoimation, in of thought would not go down too well. tm;; con~ext~ IS v:alid. For example, the
I may \vell be shouted down before I nish recent slghtmgs In New Zealand, which were widely reportedjust before Christmas
anyway, but let us see if we can avoid that including some rather strant::e-Iooking’ right at the start. h
~- p otographs which appea d on television,
The noble Earl asked us in his Motion to were also said to have beeD confi.rmed by support a proposal particularly for an radar information which was available intra-governmental study-I suppose he to the aircraft in question. But I know means, as indeed he has described, from my own experience that radar is between Governments. No doubt he frequently us~d, and, indc d, is so desicrned would \vish to see the co-operation of the for detecting anomalies in atmosp~~eri~ United States. But I should not want to conditions ::md in \ve:lther patterns, and support that kind of proposal. J do not I am not persuaded that radar is a valid think the time has vet come when we can supporting argument in this case. view this matter ,’;ith sufficient c~rtainty. Since time immemorial, man has as- to justify the expenditure of pub ic cribed t!lOse phenomena that he could not money on it. 1 .
exp am to some supernatural or extra- I certainly agree that the numerous terrestrial agents. Ev~ntually as scientific
voluntary bodies, including those with wisdom has advanced, these’ phenomena
I which the noble Earl is associat~d, ought are understood more fully, until now,
A to be encouraged, and indeed I should not today, no one takes witchcraft seriously /i be opposed to informal links bet\veen and there are no fairies at the bottom
i those bodies-or, at least the re5ponsible of my ~J.rden. . It is not so long ago that lones-and others, such as the Ministry magnetIsm, as It occurs naturally in the j of Defence. But I am ashamed to say, form of lodestone, was thought to be the
in the midst of all this faith, that I am not work of the Devil, as indeed were some of myself a believer in UFOs described, as the hot springs found in Iceland, Australia I believe they are, as objects or vehicles and elsewhere. from another planet or from another universe.
I have some 2,500 hours as a pilot. I have flown across the atlantic a few times as a pilot. But, unlike with the aircraft reported by the noble Earl, I have never seen one. I presume-indeed, I believe-that a good many of the sightings can be explained by logical scientific theory and I am, so far at least, convinced that those that cannot so far be so explained could be, if our knowledge were more advanced or if we had more information about the sightings in question. It is these unexplainl’:d sightings upon which ufologists rely so heavily in asking us to accept their theories. But I believe,
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An eclipse of the sun or the moon , now fully understood, was once thouaht t’? be an expression of the Almighty’s displeasure. Perhaps tbis derives from the description in the Gospels of the events following the Crucifixion. I recall the 44th and 45th verses of the 23rd chapter of St. L ke’s Gospel, and I shall read it if I may: " .. An.d it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. .
And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst ". St. Matthew described it rather well also: . "A~d, behold, the veil of the temple was "rent III twam from the top to the bottom’ and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent".
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[Lord Trefgarne.} No one would now seriously doubt that those happenings were, in fact, an eclipse of the sun and an earthquake respectively. I would not deny that there may have been divine intervention in respect of the timing ,
of those events, but certainly I would say that they were caused by terrestrial forces which we now fully understand.
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Without wishing to pre-empt anything that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich may say, perhaps I may pose the question as to whether the exis- tence of another race or races outside our universe is compatible with our Christian principles. I speak only as a simple member of the Christian faith, but I think I believe that He loves us and us alone. I am not aware that there is any suggestion in the words of Christ or in the words of the Almighty, as recorded that we must share his goodness with people from another universe. There is no suggestion that there is, indeed, any other such people. I acknowledge, how- ever, that, for example, the works of Darwin were once thought incompatible with the Christian faith, and so perhaps my view of the credibility of these things, from a Christian point of view, is open to correction. Perhaps the right reverend Prelate will be able to help us when he comes to speak.
1 emphasise that 1 do not for a moment doubt the sinceritv and conviction of those who believe in tI{ese objects, who believe that they are visitors from another universe or, at least, some supernatural force beyond our reason. I simply do not happen to agree with them. I certainly do not agree with the learned professor, speaking on the radio the ther morning, who said: "Anyone who believes in UFOs is a loony". But as for the sugges- tion that an international study group should be set up, "I do not think that I could countenance that as a serious proposal at this time. I emphasise, however, that I would be happy to encourage informal links between, for example, the RAF and the very worthy groups who believe differently from the way I do.
Before I sit down, I should just like to say how much I am looking forward to the maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Oxfuird, who is to speak later in the debate. His name has, of course,
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(LORDS 1 Flying Objects ’1256 appeared on the Order Paper before today, and I hope that it appears on the list of speakers a good many times in the future. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty has done m a service by bringing thi~ matter forward, but I would counsel caution and care.
7.38 p.m. The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords,
as the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarnc, has said, the majority of noble Lords in this Chamber wi!! be greatly indebted to the noble Earl, LordClancarty, for raising this fascinating and controversial subject this evening. Before I begin, perhaps I should say that I have an interest in it . , because I am a dIrector of a company which is to make an identified flying object-a thermo skyship, which is saucer shaped. I shall not get that muddled up. But in spite of sceptics, such as the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, the other day in a newspaper, and Sir Bernard Lovell from JodreJl Bank, who says that UFOs do not exist, we must agree that they do, because otherwise there would be no unidentified flying objects. Furthermore, we should not have throughout the world radio telescopes listening to try to pick up signals from intelligences in outer space. As the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty,
said, UFOs are not products of the 20th century imagination. They have been observed here for years-by the North American Indians, by the monks of Byland Abbey in 1290, who were terrified by the appearance of a huge silver disc. Right through history up to today, millions of people have seen UFOs, and I wiH go so far as to say that I am the first to ~dmit that the very large majority of them can be explained as natural or man-made phenomena-meteorites, satel- lite d bris, weather balloons, military flares, et cetera. But there are still many which are completely unexplained.
It has been reported that the United States and the USSR signed a pact in 1971 to swop UFO information, but the pact stated that they were to keep the rest of the world in the dark. I believe that the pact was signed so that neither super-Power would make mistakes about UFOs being atomic missiles. I am also led to understand that quite recently the three United States balloonists who crossed the Atlantic were followed for up to 12
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, . "<,,,,_~!,,.,,,’_’_+.. -...1’ , .’_’ 1~~7 Unidentified [18 JANUARY 1979 J Flying Objects 1258 hours"; bv UFOs but v,’ere ordered by I threefold: first, to see whether UFOs United S~,ltes Government agents not to I \vere a threat to the security of the United discuss them. States; secondly, to see whether UFOs
could contribute technical and scientific knowledge; and, thirdly, to explain to the general American public what was going on in their air space. However, as UFOs appeared to offer no threat to security, Project Blue Book became just a public relations exercise to not inform the public, despite numerous unidentified radar track- ings and cIose approaches made by UFOs to both civil and military aircraft. The miJitary staff in America said that, as there was no threat or danger, they were not interested in pursuing the subject any further. So Project Blue Book was abandoned.
This may be good enough to fob ofr the American public, but it is not good enough to fob off the British pub1ic. Too many people-ordinary people as wel! as famous people-have seen UFOs. Ten Govern- ments now openly admit that UFOs exist and are real: France, Norway, Sweden, Brazil, the Argentine, Venezuela, Mexico, the Philippines, Peru and Grenada. Other Governments know that UFOs exist but do not admit it publicIy. President Carter has personally seen a UFO. Let me give a smaU sample of promi-
nent, scientific and sane peopie who have seen UFOs or helieve, through evidence, that they exist: Commander Robert McLaughlin, United States Navy missile expert; John McCormack, Speaker, United States House of Representatives; the late Air Chief Marshal! Lord Dowding; the late President Truman; Dr. Stanton Friedman, United States Nuclear Physi- cist; Ed Mitchel!, Apol!o astronaut; Gordon Cooper, Apol!o astronaut; Dr. Al!en Hynek, Professor of Astronomy, North West University; Walter Cronkite, United States newscaster; Neil Armstrong, first man on the moon; and, lastly, Dr. Felix Zigel, Professor of Higher M athe- matics and Astronomy, Moscow Aero- nautical Institute. Can any of your Lordships sincerely believe that these aforementioned . people aU suffer either from hal!ucinations or believe in fairy stories?
We know that war in space, once a Igm8nt of the imagination and a subject much beloved by science fiction wrilers, is very nearJy a fact now. Both super- Powers have, or will have, kiBer satellites and laser beams operating in space. May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, whether he agrees that this may perhaps be one of the reasons for the reticence of the United States over being more forth- coming about their UFO information? In 1977, Sir Eric Gairy, the Prime
Minister of Grenada, backed by Presi- dent Carter, wanted the United Nations to declare 1978 as the Year of the UFO. They both failed. However, the proposi- tion was finaIJy tabled for 29th September 1978. This proposition was postponed through October, November and Decem- ber. It was finaIJy threatened by the veto of the United States and Russia. Hope- fully, however, it will now be considered in June of this year. I believe that at last there has been a unanimous vote that the proposition will not be rejected.
As the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, said, 1 agree entirely that we do not understand many of these unidentified flying objects because of our lack of knowledpe. UFOs defy worldly logic. Even if ~ne accepts that there may be life elsewhere in our galaxy, or even in other galaxies, the human mind cannot begin to comprehend UFO characteristics: the!r propulsion, their sudden appearance, the~r disapperance, their great speeds, theIr silence, their manoeuvres, their apparent anti-gravity, their changing shapes. They defy our present knowledge and laws of matter. Of course, this naturally upsets our earthly scientists because it is outside their earthly terms of reference and knowledge, but to try to present UFOs in a more mundane light let us briefly examine the last 30 years.
In 1947, the United States Air Force started an official project caJled " SIGN ". By 1949, 243 reports of UFOs had been submitted, but no conclusive evidence came to the public’s knowledge from this project. Project Blue Book was then born, and its findings produced the same conclusions. So it appears that the United States Air Force concern was H.L.8 P
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I E scnhow~r, President Lyndon JohnsOJ and Pr ldent Ford, v1ho I agree \’:3 appointed. During their presidencies th~, became completely silent and did not fulfil their promises. Why? I strongly sus- pect that Her Majesty’s Government kn \\’ why, and if they do know, why then they should inform your Lordships.
’
I believe that there is much material evidence on UFOs in the national archives in the United States of America whieh has never been made known to the public, and even President Carter is finding it difficult to carry out his pre-election pkdge. I am led to believe that he has tried unsuccessfully with NASA to do UFO research. The answer he has been given is" No, due to exp~nse". That rc:>earcwhich NASA has been required to do would cost a few miHion dollars, but a few mil1ioil dollars is only the cost of two astronauts’ suits. Therefore it appears obvious that for SOIll reason there is a cover-up in the United States.
We in the United Kingdom are m a strange position because we have had thousands of sightings, yet I am led to understand that the Ministry of Defence helve only two clerks working on UFO sightings. Further, they ciaim that they are not spending any money on UFO research. They appear reluctant to in- vestigate publicly connected phenomena such as alleged messages from outer space. They say that this is the responsibility of the BEC and the Post Office. Can the t.,,1inistcr say whcther the BEC and the Post Office Imow that they have this esponsibility ?
Further, when the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, replies to the debate will he confirm that He Majesty’s Government might be sympathetic and give support to the efforts of President Ca ter, Dr. Kurt Waldheim and Sir Eric Gairy to get the United Nations to debate the resolution ,. to discover the origin, nature and jnt,~nt of UFOs". The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, said
that we should set up a parliamentary UFO group to n:eet a few times a year. I would concur with him. Further, I think the general public should be en- couraged to come forward with evidence. ’Many" do not, for fear of being ridiculed. Let them be open; let thp.m be honest; let them bad’!er their I\-1ember of Parlia- ment and tl Government to be open
’.’"1259 Unidentified
[The Earl of Kimberley.] Russian scientists see a connection between UFOs and paranormal phenomena. In fact, there is an ever-growing belief th,space travel has a connection with tele- pathy and telekinesis, because cosmonauts in orbit have discovered through scientiJtests that they have an increased level of telephathic communication. Ifwe assume that extra-terrestrial intelligences who travel to earth are more ad’Vanced than we are-and in that respect I think that they must be---then UFOs could be tele- kinetic phenomena: in other words, controlled by thought pulses.
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Since thought is not subject to the physical limitations of matter, thea veloci- ties in excess of the speed of Jight wou ld be possible. It is interesting to me tha.t in 1968 I was sp 1king to Sir Frank Whittle, the inventor of the jet engine and an eminent scientist, about interstel1ar space travel. It was just before the Americans had landed on the moon. Sir Frank said that he thouQ:ht that it would be perfectly feasible one day to go to the stars, as he did not believe in Einstein’s theory of relativity. A rem~rk like this, coming from an ordinary manlike myself, would probably, quite rightly, be laughed at. But one can certainly not laugh when a remark like that is made by such an eminent person as Sir Frank Whittle.
~ What is interesting is that two years later, in 1970, Dr. Fomin, a Russian doctor of telekinesis and automation, argued that,
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from those we know at present and which so far are only theory. However, these principles have been established in mathe- matical formulae. Therefore, Einsteiil’s concept of time and space possibly may not apply.
In 1976, President Carter, in a’ pre-
election pledge stated: .. If I become President, I’ll-make every piece of jnformation this country has about UFO siting" available to the DubUc and the scientists. I am convinced that UFOs exist. I have seen them".
This statement was a breakthrough against the United States cover-up as it admitted that not all UFO information is, or has been, available to the American public. For instanc<::, do your Lordships’ know that three former United States Presidents before their election proclaimed their belief in UFOs? They were President
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12G1 Vnidemifed [13 JANUARY 1979 J 1262with them and to cease what I am con’, inced i~; a cover-up IH,Tc. The peopJc of n..:t\in hcne a rj.:bt to klJC1\’! aj] that (1.~ GOVCiTi- ment1" )[ only of tf:is c0unU.-y but c;th:=rs throughout the worid, kilO’.\’ about UFOs.
Before I sit down I ask the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, whether he \\ill teU your Lordships why the Ministry of De nc~ has not informed the public of 18 con!acts from 23rd May 1977 up to 22nd February 1978, numb~red K 5634 to K 5651 in- clusive. Further, what do the clas~;i!~cJtion numbers 5, 3, 20, IG, 6, 8 and 23 mean for thes~ ] 8 contacts? !iforeover, does the noble Lord rcalise that 13 out of these 18 contacts were seen during the hours of daylight? There need be n; fear that the people of this country may p2.nic, since if UFOs are extra-terrestrial th;;ir intelli- gence and knowkdge is far ahead of our primitive understanding. r"fy Lords, I heartily support the rV otion moved by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for an intra-governmental body to research UFOs. Let Her Majesty’s Government give an example to tbe rest of the world by being the leader in this investigation.
7.55 p.m. The Viscount ofOXFUIRD: My Lords,
first I should like to thank the noble I Earl, Lord Clancerty, for initiating this extremely interesting debate. Of course it is really much above my head, but I have enjoyed it already and I hope I shall enjoy it for the rest of the evening. To me, the first question really is, ,vhe have these UFOs come frorn? Then~ could be a great many answers to that, but in the first place we can look at our o\\’n planet and there is no doubt that there is very little chance of their having come from anything in our own solar system. In fact I think I should quote a few words from Professor Kopal’s recent book on the solar system which finishes up, after lamenting the fact of what they found out about Mars, by saying: "The hope of finding life on Mars has
evaporated, together with the canals, into the thin Martian air. It is new almost certain that as living beings we are alone in the solar system ". I think that is a very good example of the fact that we cannot look to the solar system to disconr where these things come from, if they come from anywhere. The next possibility which has been
paraded is that they might come from the sister sun in our own galazy. Of course H.L. 8 P2
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that is quite possible if you believe in the now <!ccepted--or shall ,ve say more ])()[’ELlr----theory of the "big bang" kr the start of the universe. Undoubtedl\’, our sun and its solar svstem must ba e been shared with rr:an others at that rnO!1H:’jJt when we suddenly appeared. They even give dates for it now; they talk about 5,000 miIJion years ago, which f ts in with our own geological back- ground.
There are many stars which have a solar system which might well be in the same position; tbey might have one planet. as we have, as good as Ours and with th~ same amount of knowledge. On the other hand, we mllst accept the fact, as the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, was saying, that it would have to be something which we have not been able to a:tain on this earth and something that we do not understand en this earth, because if one wanted to get, say, from A Centauri. which is our nearest star, to here, it wculd take half a lifetime. Even travelling faster than anything we have ever produced in the way of space ships in this world of ours, the distance is 250,000 times the distance that ,ve are from our sun, which is 93 million miles. It is a distance which would certainly take half a lifetime, even at 100,000 miles an hour. So I do not think it would be reasonable to look at another solar system, say A Centauri, which is very near, being only roughly 4t light years from us, which is not very much in space. There is of course the possibility that the UFOs may come from some secret effort on this earth. This I very much doubt because one could not keep a thing like that secret for 20 or 30 years. I very much doubt the possibility of its being on this
. earth.
S we get an entirely different picture. We have progressed in the last 30 years both in cosmology and in many other sciences, more than we have ever done before, certainly in my lifetime. . I think the feeling really is that we are now on the edge of something in the universe which we do not understand yet. However, if we are going to understand the UFO question, we have got to. move to the extent of understanding something beyond cosmology today. From our point of view, what we are looking at is the tip of the iceberg. We know perfecdy well that we get information, we put it into, computers and come out at the other
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[Viscount Oxfuird.] end with a new model. Then in five or 10 years the model is thrown away and we are back with the one answer which applies, unfortunately, to so much of science today; we just do :lot know. But one hopes that it will be possible.
If the suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, ba:::kcd by the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, is adopted-that is, that we should have a worldwide organisa- tion-to look into this matter and to go further than we have ever done, why should we not be the leaders of it? It would twist science back into a new field. Is it possible that there is not merely another solar system in our galaxy, but that somewhere in one of the many galaxies in the expanding universe there are other places where these things could come from with their amazingly vast scientific knowledge? I personally see no valid reason why we must accept that at this time, but we should start working for it. If we had a ’,yorldwide organisa- tion to try to control that, perhaps we should be able to solve many of the problems which face us today in the universe; and nothing could be better~ 1hen we might possibly find the answer to our UFOs.
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8.2 p.m. Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords,
as the lone figure on this side of the House who has dared to come in on this debate may I say that it has been a pleasure t~ listen to the noble Viscount, Lord Oxfuird, who has just spoken and, who has, in his own inimitable way, as a result of his military and oth r experience over the years, brought a certain depth and profundity to the request for some investigation into the phenomenon with which mankind is presented today. Consequently, with all sincerity I can say that I hope this House will have the pleasure of listening to the noble Viscount on many occasions adding his voice to our deliberations, and I thank him for what he has said. Now I want to attack the problem in
my own way. First, I want to ask what are we talking about. Secondly, after expressing my gratitude for the maiden Speech, I would also express thanks to th.: noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, who initiated this debate to call attention to the increasing number of sightings and
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[LORDS~ Flying Objects 1264landings on a worldwide scale of un- identif~ed tlying objects. There is no argument about that. Do not let the noble Earl be a little bit sad because of dandy intellectualism that may approach !his debate. The world oozes with mtellectuality and at the present moment it is completely lacking in wisdom. Let us remember what I have said many times here, and it was myoId mother who taught me this; she made me go to Sunday school and quote the text. She would say in Welsh: "Always remember, my boy Solomon did not ask for cleverness, h~ asked for wisdom". There is a vast difference between the dandy intel- lectualism of some of the reporters on newspapers’ approach to this problem and the wise approach that we have just heard in this maiden speech. Let us anchor that down. What else does the noble Earl ask for. He savs on a world- wide scale and that there is "need for inter- governmental study. I will add to it from the other side of the House that the expense would be so small that we should not neglect this.
Anybody who knows something about laser beams-and I saw in a laboratory in Switzerland for the first time the effect of a laser beam-knows it would be quite possible to throw on to that table now an identified or unidentified object that ’.’v’ould look palpable, like Macbeth’s dagger. Your Lordships remember the famous dagger scene:
" Is this a dagger I see before me The handle toward my hand? . . . In form as palpab1c As this which now I draw".
We could with a laser beam throw a dagger that would look as palpable on to that table. There may be an under- standing of the power of the laser and its effect existing in some kind of technology that is beyond the dimension in which we can work. We have been looking in mathematics for the fifth and even the sixth dimension.
I had better pick up my notes, lest we be here a long time. Noble Lords need not worry; so much has been quoted that it saves me a lot of quotation. I want to ask the 64,000 dollar question. Do noble Lords believe in angels? The answer from some will be, Yes, and yet they have never seen one. We are asking you to believe in the phenomena of flying saucers, seen by now by, I should think,
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1265 Unidentified []8 JANUARY 1979] Flying Objects ]266
probably millions, at any rate hundreds i have been translated into many languages of thous’,’..nds, without cxaggcration. If i and I congratuJate him. He !leiS done a we are studying hagiograpby---and I had I job of work and I hope that the debah: better be care ul-which is L’Je history of initiated by the noble Earl will receive the saints, if I came o f my \Ve\sh moun- some attention. People tend to scofT, tains and came down as a little boy of 12 II but it is only a few days ago that we were and ~aid J had seen the Virgin Mary sitting at the piano, playing and knocking springing out of a rock, some devout out-not with the brilliance of a top religious people would believe me; but if pianist-" We three kings of Orient are ".
I said I had seen a flying saucer they would What did they follow? They followed a not believe me. What is the difference? star. What was that star? We have had It is a question that has to be asked; it is an intellectual an2.Jysis of why after the a philosophical question that has to be Crucifixion darkness spread over the
asked, when intellectuality, in its pompous earth. The noble Lord, Lord Trefgarnc- way in its Sunday newspaper articles, is who has piloted from one side of t lC ocean
dealing in print with mysteries that to the other-made intellectual assumptions Shakespeare described-to misquote him: about earthquakes and eclipses. We are " There is more in heaven and earth than not completely sure how to explain is thought of in man’s philosophy". eclipses or earthquakes, but we have a
. . . kind of Kepler mathematics that times So this deserves not bemg pushed aSIde. things rather nicely. It is not quite Mar~ you, my Lords, I was told today enough to explain the earthqua kes. It
outslde.those ~oors that an ambassador of does not mean that the mystery of the 8 ft. 6 ms. wIth green feet and webbed UFOs is something that can be brushed feet as .well .had asked ~hether he could aside, and it is an anthropological arro- park ~IS flymg saucer m our car park, gance to so say.
~
accordmg to some of the telephones that . have been ringing here today, because . Goo~ heavens, I have been speakmg for some people have treated the whole matter nme mInutes! My Lords, do not worry, as a joke. I would, therefore, suggest I shall be about another five. The House
to them that they read H. G. Wells’ Final has heard a n.umber <;>f laudable people Essay. They can read it in half an hour. quote~. Ordmary lIttle people ~ave It is slim, it is cogent, it is succinct. He somettmes been .laughed at, cs~ec[(~lIy says the human mind is at the end of its those concerned In the famous sIghtIng
tether. at Pascagoula in Mississippi when one little fellow fainted when he saw a chap with one leg jumping towards him with a wizened and wrinkled face, with pointed ears, crab claws for hands, slits for eyes and holes beneath his nostri13--they would not be nostrils without holes, at least I should hope so! We shall not develop fantastic descriptions like that. We shall not go into those realms. But we must say that there are many people who have said that they have experienced these phenomena.
I agree that the New Zealand incident has reawakened man’s interest and as the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, said, they were not clear pictures. However, I attended a scientific lecture in this noble building not so long ago, given by some- one who believed faithfully in the Loch Ness monster. He showed us masses of films. He was a scientist an he swore that the Loch Ness monster existed. There is just as much case for the existence of flying saucers. We know that they exist. All we are saying is that they are
There is a queerness in the cosmcJogy of the world in which we are now living:. Was Wells right? We certainly see man- kind acting queer when petrol is short. He is snarling and worse than any being from outer space. The anthropological arrogance of 20th century man in his tinpot motor-cars riding through the streets of the lovely spaceship we call the world is hartbreaking. He has learnt nothing from his two wars; and if we had another, God help mankind, in view of the way that he has shown his greed, selfish- ness and tendency to panic as never before since the days of the Crusades. The greatest delusion in the history of man was the delusion of the Crusades~ But men went on them after the days of Peter the Hermit with a fiery and fierce belief in what they were doing.
The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, is an expert who has been written about. In fact, he dropped everything else to write about this matter. His seven books
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1267 UnidenJified [ LORDS] Flying Objects 1268
[Lord Davies of Leek.] is interesting. I am not qualifi~d to unidentified. They may be terrestrial or argue ~bout it: I never reached that celestial. We are asking Govemments to standard of mathematics. However, I find an anS’Ner and th;t is an th<lt this know tlut Einstein believed that electro debate is about. There is no magic, we magnetic waves have no mass and are have nothing up our sleeves, but let the therefore not ~ffected by his theory. world know what is going on. ~owevcr, he said that as an object-if I~ has. mass-approaches .the speed of
lIght, Its mass becomes Infinite. That might explain the black holes about which we talk. We are talking of mysteries that we never knew anything about. For a couple of generations now
thous2.J1ds of magazines and so on have reported these sightings. We want to know whether these objects that are unidenti!ed deserve real research in depth. . \V~ether or 11.ot it is true, only our prejudIces c::>.n decIde, and it becomes more difficult to listen to such weird experiences from apparently honest, sane and unself-seeking men who place their findings before papers and Governments. Are we right to call these men liars hallucinators or sensationalists? If on~ human being out of the tens of thousands who allege to have seen these phenomena. is telling the truth, then there is a dire need for us to look into the matt~r. Those who believe in psychic phenomena or spiritualism and those who believe in the sY!1chronicity of ghosts-as they try to explam them-should not scoff at the possibitity of these unidentified objects. ’Ne know that poltergeists exist; we know about their activities. Therefore, do not be so ready to scoff at UFOs when ill a~other mon:ent if I catch you talking, you will agree with me that poltergeists exist. This is a serious Debate. It deserves study and understanding.
.’
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This renewed interest poses many problems and there are ma.ny research organisations which are looking into the matter and which know that they exist, ~ut I shall not bore the House by going mto ~hem now. Let us ask a couple of questIOns. How can a flying saucer fly faster than sound and not create a super- sonic boom? What is it? Secondly have we the right to assume that we alon~ a:e in the universe? This anthropomorphic VIew of God that some people have built up does not build for the spirit and does not, I think, build for true holiness. It docs not build up for real Christian spirit if it is foliowed too fully. Therefore, I should say that we have no right to assume that we are the only intelliO’cnt beings in the universe. Is the earth ’’"the only planet populated by intelligent technological life? I do not know and I do not suppose that we shall be able to fi~d an answer yet. If in a year of Queen ElIzabeth I had said to someone in London that I could show him a Dicture of Philip of Spain in Madrid on piece of glass in his room, I would probably have been burnt at the stake as a wizard or as a witch if I were a \voma n. However: we can do that today. We have broken through. vVe have the miracle on earth of television, even from the moon.
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Are there flying saucers? Can these objects be explained? There are two basic facts. First, the scientific examina- tion of the probability. That is due to mankind and Governments should look into it. The second aspect is to fathom the possibilities of the existence of this phenomena. Astronomers are now in- creasing their search for extra-territorial radio signals, but so far-despite what the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, has said- none has reaJly or truly been discovered. The biJlions of stars in the galaxy make the problem at present too much f~r us.
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Then. there is the question of speed. In a lIght year a ray of light ti:avels 6 trillion miles, but we do n~t want to go into that. The questioa of rdativity
.~’f
8.30 p.m. The Lord Bishop of NORWICH: My
Lords, I count it a privilege to follow the noble Viscount, Lord Oxfuird, and to link myself with the words of the noble Lord LO,rd D~vies of Lee~, in c?ngratulating th~ Iloole VISCOUilt on his maIden speech. At the beginning of his speech I jotted down that I should like to thank him for his "down-to-earth remarks", but when he got right out to A Centauri I realised that that phrase was of no use anyway. How- ever, we congratulate him and look for- ward to h<::aril1g his voice again and often.
I am gbd to be able to folJow-without of course the Welsh fire or fervour--what
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the noble I I have a Ii: that is wI says. I a: noble Earl
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" To call sightings an unidentified is a prope have brou open and opportuni
It is rig} scientific~ objects, curiosity, noble al because (
reasons 0 a time Wl not alwa} out the fr we are toe a" search \ should \)1 am not SL to what l
says to U’ studied, to be true
The iJ.1 suggester world it ~ in oth~r Zet’lland to have Norfolk; which is ~ fair and hag told I was ta today in was to ri one of c national actual es, spaces s1 whether this), w) Norfolk importaJ say abol’
I thin firm ant: knowkwealth erudit<: House,
I-~ia’ .~:,tl"
,:d 1" that
’-:r. 1 ,L:ctroid rtH~;1.:;ory. ect--!f :,~c of That
\vllich r~ teriesJt., noW 11 iU ve -ant to ,at are ch in
::, only -:~comes
weird:st" sanecc their ’nm~nts. :11 liars, If one
,ousands :nomena s a dire matt~r.
?nomena ; believe ; they try )jf at the objects.
we know ~, do not when, in king, you ists exist. deserves
ICH: My follow the nd to link )ble Lord, :llatine: the ;eech.- At tted down :m for his t when he alised that w. How- "look for- and often.
v-with~ut ’our-what
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1269 U 1clllified ’ [ 18 JANUARY 1979]f ying Objects 1270
among the variol s parts of t.his chcq\.lcred c1v~s:;bc>ard? I felt that I wanted to share anxieties on a rather narrow level with your Lordships. First, I beicve that UFOs and the mystery surrounding them today
are helping to build up a climate of
credulity and, in certain cases, even of
superstition, with,the danger (If a sort of
ersatz spiritu81ity almost ~eacting aoainst 1"
b
tHe lInpersom’.lty of modern civilisatiol1, but not whoHy involved in the total
Christian commitment, which is a balanced commitment. Last summer at our
Lambeth CO feience the phrase was used:
"The Church gathers for worshir)’ the Church
f.cattcrs for mission". . ,
These are the two sides of activity: the
Church of God meets to worship God
but the Church of Christ scatters to spread
the good news of the Gospel. My concern hel:e is that thc mystery surrounding
UFOs today-and 1 think it is helped.
by the variety of films and progiamm.es
on the subject-is in danger of producing a 20th century superstition in our
modern
and scientific days which is not unlike
the superstition of past years. That is
my first anxiety.
The second is that UFOs and their
study seem, from my limited research in
The interesting thing is that when a this area, to link with a certain religious
suggested UFO is seen in one part of the suocu!ture which seems to do three
~orld it seems to spark off many sightings . things.. It. ~ rers a substitute for true,
m oth~r parts. The fact of the New catholic religlOll. I use "catholic" with
Ze81ancl sightings a short time aga seems \ ~ Sll1~11 ’ c ’; I mean the Christian faith in
to ~av;: produced many sightings in ~ts \Ylde?t, but recei.ved, s~nsc. Secondly, Norlolk; and our Eastern Dailv
Press- 1 thmk It dra..vs seriOUS, SIncere and often
which is a magnificent daily papcl:,accurate very channing people-and young people
fair and always helpful to the Church-- too-into a sub-Christian, and I am
bas told us all about this recently. When afraid sometimes a non-Christian cult,
I was talking on teJe.vision at lunchtime often controlled by a dominant leader,
today in Norwich my immediate reaction and reproduces something of the
gnostic
was to ring up the commanding officer of -1 suppose one wants to
help people by
one of our stations--and for the sake of saying" g-nostic "-heresies of the tight-
national security 1 shall not name the knit, esoteric groups of the flrst, second
actual establishment lest other ears in other and third centuries. In fact, I believe
spaces should be listening to me-to ask that Archbishop William Temple was
whether (and 1 am quite serious about right when he said the Church
of Christ
this), when sig ings were suggested in was the only society founded for
its non-
Norfolk last week, one of our particularly members to take what it knew of
God
important RAF stations had anything to and of Christ into the world that
others
say about them. might know too.
the nob\:: Lord. Lord Davir:s f Leek said.
I have a littlc Irish blood in l1lV veins and
that is \’vhy I understand eve:’ything he
says, I am sur,:: that the- rC ;,,;st by the noble L~rL Lord CLl1lcarty:"To cal: atten o:l tD the in-::rca"ing number of
sighting~ and landing:; 0:1 a v/orld-vvide ~;cale of unidC;;lt il’kd flying object;:
"
is (t proper one. 1 am most glad that we
have brought t;1is whclc issu out into th::
open and hay:: been given the m,hurried
opportunity of talking "bout it tonight.
It is right that we should give a cool and scientific look at ail unidentified flyinf!
objects, not only because of naturJ
curiosity, not even onlv--as I think the
noble ar1, Lord Kimberley, suggested.- because of nation~11 security b’.l also for
reasons of scientific research. There was
a time wh~n leaders in the Church were not always so enth’.1siastic r,bout
Dushin(T
out the frontiers of knowled~’e as believ~ we are today. I very much j~oce that such a search will contin e. Whetl er or not it
should be an intra.-governmeGtal study I
am not sure. We shall Jistea with interest
to what the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi,
says to us on that. But th:lt it should be
studied, and seriously studied, I believe
to be true.
I think that we should be quite cool;
firm and scientific nnd trY to extend our
knowledge in this area. - But, with the
wealth of scientific, aeronautical and
erudite knowledge in your Lordships’
House, what is a bishop doing moving
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I see a certain. danger of the linking
of religion with the UFO situation at that
level. Some Christian researchers suggest that those who become deeply
involved
in the religious aspects of the UFO
situation come under a psychic domination
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j i 1271 Unidentified [J..,ORDS ] FlJ’fllg Objects 1272’ ~ [The Lord Bishop of Norwich.] The Lord BISHOP of NORWICH: which can cause serious distress to them My Lords, r thank the noble Lord, Lord and to their personal life. That is my Tregfarne, for his interjection because it anxiety. I may be wrong, but I put it shows that he must have been listening forward with some care. having thought I carefuII y, because the next thing on my about it and studied it a good deal. I notes is, "Say something about Lord Therefore, my third anxiety-and I am I’ Trefgarne’s remarks". However, there sorry to be negative but it is important to are about 20 seconds to go before I get share both the light and the dark sides to the noble Lord. Perhaps in the mean- -is the danger of the religious aspect of I time he can have a glass of water from the UFO situation leading to the obscuring Lord Davies of Leck, or something, but I of basic Christian truths. When all is I’ am almost with the noble Lord. I am glad said and done, Christ himself is the agent for that interjection because I obviously of God in the creation of the world. I was not getting right what I was trying to quote from Colossians: say. I believe that all the far corners of " Christ is the image of the invisible God, the the creative world, right out further than first-born of all creation: for in Christ all things we can ever see or even know by radio, are :-\’e~e. created in heaven and on earth, ~i~ible and within the plan of the Creator. I believe illvlsIbIe-whether thrones or domInions, or h’" " I. th . t’ <; f principalities or authorities. .. All thir.gs were t "yare WIt yn e maJes ,IC purpo"es 0 created through Him and for Him ". God. I believe that ChrIst, as Creator Th. ~ . t. h t .
C I. under the Godhead, is concerned with it IS lascma mg c ap er 10 0 assrans, II which is perhaps one of the highest levels a. of Christological teaching, speaks of Now may I come to the noble Lord’s Christ being before all things: "by him particular question a few mintucs ago. all things consist", as the Authorised His question went something like this: Version put it. All things hold together; "Do we believe in the existence of another He is the great unifying, holding-together race? Is it possible that there is another principle of God’s universe. race further afTeJd?" I must say that I do
not know. I believe there is a place for reverent Christian agnosticism concerning what is not revealed to us in scripture and by our Lord. Having said that, I believe that God may have other plans for other worlds, but I believe that God’s plan for this world is Jesus. That at least is how I view the question. The emphasis in scripture is most interesting on the fact that there never seems a point beyond the revelation of scripture where there is not God.
:’.
, , ~
, ~ ~..I say this in this debate recognising the
danger of, as it were, preaching a sermon. However, I do not think that is true in this case because the very subject we are debating is helping to widen our horizons -and the noble Viscount, Lord Oxfu rd, I stressed this point of looking far out in I his maiden speech. I believe that Christ has not only a terrcstial, not only a cosmic , significance but literally a ga!actic signi- i ficance. I believe that He is God’s vice- regent concerning His great creative world. It is good that our minds and eyes should be stretched further out because I do not believe that at any point of the universe we get beyond the hand of God. Therefore, it helps us to under- stand the majesty of the Godhead when we begin to stretch our minds to reach out to the’-far corners of creation.
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Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, will the right reverend Prelate allow me to intervene? Is he actually offering eccle- siastical authority for the existence of another race of people in another uni- verse? Is he saying that the existence of UFOs, together with their inhabitants such as arc so often described to us, is compatible with Christian faith?
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I quote, if I may follow Lord Trefgarne once more before finishing what I had to say, from the most majectic opening letter I to the Hebrews. I " In these last days, God has spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. He I reflects the glory of God. He bears the stamp of I his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power ".
My point is that the danger of getting the UFO thing lin ked with the religious thing is that it obscures the fact that Christ is the image of the invisible God, and that all God’s purposes and plans for humanity are in and through his Son, our Lord.
This is not popular. This is not agreed by dozens of people. Plenty of people
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think tha exclusive of our Lo
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But this’ which he and in t11 In the in clearly r Godheastudy of because] and his salvation by othe which IT and may ways. happy H careful s but let it of the f\ its poweJ
ViscOl before down, n- I agreec’ did not was tell; UFOs ir meant f art or 01 bad anc tex t. If worship in agree We mu: or mUSJ study n not cle~ not.
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The My Lo! mission sentence the bo) should great \\ it is essl Christi~ should the gre am sin people bypass and re’
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" .1273 Unidentified [IS JANUARY 1979 ] 1274Flying Objects
think that Christians m3 kc a proud and }let into diff:.culties whkh will hurt and exdusivc cJaim when th~y c;aim the words i i arm them. 1t is simp1y the obscuring of O~1t Lcrd. I of the Gospel that is my conccm. ., A1I power is givcn wHo me in l[,’aven and in !
(, Earth ". 0.36 p.m. But this is rart of the belief of a Christian Lord GLADWYN: !v1y Lo!’ds, I must which he has to put humbly and lovmgly, begin with an apology. Before I knew and in the light of seeking to serve people. that the debate was to stan so late I In the incarnation of our Blessed Lord he entered into an obligation for this evening clearlv revealed to us the mind of the from which I find it ditlcult to escape. Godhead, and we should be areful in our Therefore, I may be unable to stay the study of the UFOs in a religious context course. One hai1py thing about UFOs is because I believe that the Gospel of Christ, that they have nothing whatever to do and his death upon the Cross for the with Party politics! Another is that they salvation of sinners, can never be by-passed take one’s mind off the absolutely frightful by other forms of religious expression everyday events. Besides that, no theory which may be esoteric, may be unusual, as regards them can possibly be laughed and may appear to come to us in unusual out of court, nor need angels in respect ways. For that reason therefore I am of them fear to tread! I am sure that happy that we should make a cool, clear. the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, careful study of the whole UFO situation, would agree. but let it not be at the price of the obscuring of the fullness of the Christian faith and Though many aJJeged sightings are of its power to transform lives. identifiable objects of terrestrial origin,
such as disintegrating sateJJites, baJJoons or meteors, or even some sort of reflection, others are of things which, on the face of it, cannot be accounted for in this way. The evidence of this is obviously’ too circumstantial to be disrel!arded. The evidence produced by the
~ noble Earl,
Lord CIancarty, and my noble friend Lord Kimberley, is obviously too circum- stantial. You cannot disregard that. These things almost certainly do exist. It is difficult to say that they do not exist. Therefore, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, I do not contest their existence.
.
Viscount BARRINGTON: My Lords, before the right reverend Prelate sits down, may I ask one question? Although I agreed with much of what he said, I did not entirely understand, when he was telling us that one should not study UFOs in a religious context, whether that meant that one should not study music, art or other things that we all have, good, bad and indifferent, in a religious con- text. If it means that we must not worship them, then I would be entirely in agreement, as a professing Christian. We must not worship art, architecture, or music. But when he tells us. not to study them in a religious context, I am not clear whether I will be doing so or not.
.,
Some objects may be of terrestrial origin, but equally some may not. What- ever their origin, it has certainly not as yet been proved that they contain, or-are controlled by, sentient beings of any sort. Still less has it been demonstrated that The Lord Bishop of NORWICH: such sentient beings come from another My Lords, will the House give me per- planet, of which we are told there are mission to seek to answer that in a many millions. in the universe and no sentence? Just as it is important that doubt many thousands on which con- the boys and girls in our schools today ditions may well be similar to those on should know some basic facts about the earth. It is conceivable, therefore, that great world religions, I stilI believe that UFOs come from another world; but that, it is essential that in a so-called and named to say the least, is not certain or, let us Christian country our b.oys and g!rls say, is not yet certain. Let us therefore should hav~ the opportun~.ty. of k~owl11g ,for a moment examine the terrestrial the g~eat facts of t~e ChIlStl~n f~lIth. I I and the non-terrestrial hypotheses. am sImply suggestmg that. If, m fact,
people seeking for religious experience I’ If these objects are terrestrial, they bypass the revelation of God n Christ come somewhere from our world, then and revealed in scripture, then they may they may conceivably be attributable to
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[Lord Gladwyn.] some condition of the atmosphere, or upper atn~ospherc, unknown to us, pro- ducing eLxtrical or similar phenomena which 110 doubt interfere with comn[,sscs. and for some reason dart about tile sky: sometimes even coming to eartll. Ti;c dimcuIty about such an explanation is that they never seem to come into actual contact with aircraft, or any other air- borne objects. Even if co!lisions have sometimes been suspected, they have not been proved to have occurr~d. Nor, apparently, do they ever crash into anything important on the ground. When they arc alleged to bave been seen on the ground it is always, incident ly, away from houses. I sup;Jose it is conceivable that they may be c,,<)able of passing right through physical objects, their mindless trajectory being the fore harmless, and dictated by some unknown physical cause, and the ’ apparent presence on the ground being due to some local conditions on the surface. AI! I sav is that this is a con- ceivable hypothesis. In any case, the fact that their occasional p!’~sence is so far inexplicable does not in itself invalidate the terrestrial hypothesis. There a:-c, as the noble Lord, Lord Oavks of Leek, said, more things in Heaven than are dreamt of in our philosophy. One terrestrial possibility at least can
be discarded, that which aitributes them to some Soviet activity in Central Asia, in some wav hearaldinQ: World War Ill. This hypothesi~ was cur~ent, 3:i I remember well, in America at the time of the Korean war, when I was in New "/ork. Indeed, it was responsible for, as far as I know, the enly known joke ever perpetrated by a Sovie1: functionary, namdy Mr. Gromyko, who when. asked what he thought about flying saucers said, " Some people say these objects are due to the excessive consumption in the United States of Scotch whisky. I say that is not so. They are due to the activities of a Soviet athlete, a discus thrmver, in Eastern Siberia, practising for the Olympic Games and quite unconscious of his strength. "
If these objects are not terrestrial, I then admittedly, always supposing they II exist and are not mere illusions, they must be of some non-terre<;tri,,1 oridn. I We can, I think, discard the possibiity I that they come from any of the other , planets, as was said by the noble Viscount,
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[LORDS J flying Objects 1276 Lord Oxfuird, whose maiden speech we so much appreciated; I hope we sh?iI hear from him again shortly. Venus is too hot, Mars is a lifeless wilderness. a~d conditic}!1s on the others are extremej}: unJikely to be compatible wirh any form of Jife.
Thus, from whence do t~1ey come? They can only come from a planet in some other starry system, of which the nearest, as the noble Viscount said, is the star Proxima Cenrauri, which is 4’;’ light years away. Always supposing: therefore, that UFOs are manned by sentient beings ’.l/ho travel at the speed of light-and if you travel at ] 86,000 miles a sec0i1d, how do you slow down on approaching the earth? (how wonderful to imagine!)-these cr atures mllst have been cooped up in their small machines for no less than 4. 5 terrestrial years before 8.ppearing in cur atmosph(~re. One can p>::rhaps ir:ngine that they may somehow have been abie to escape from time and consequently not need any sustenance or sleep, but it is difficult, even on that hypothesis, to believe their machines are somehow time-exempt and can cons~- qncntly contain enough propellant to keep them steady on their millennary way.
If a UFO was launched near Proxima Centauri and proceeded at the rate at which astronauts go to the moon, it would take, I am reliably informed, not 100,000 years but more like 900,000 years before it reac1H:d the earth. In which case, it is indisputable that any non-terres- trial UFO now sighted over New Zealand or anywhere else must have started on its journey something like a million years ago. In other words, since after all the human race lives within time, it must have left long before any kind of re- cognisable human society existed here below.
It is, however, also indisputable that UFOs have been observed for many hundreds of years in Europe, China and elsewhere. There are records of mediaeval monks seeing cigar-like objects in the heavens; and indeed it is quite possible that such sightings have been observed during the last few thousand years. There may be more sightings now simply because we have better facilities for observing them. If so, what conclusion must we draw as regards the whole non- terrestrial hypothesis? It is simply that
.1211
these sentient telli ent beir if such they minable our: hover ab ut attempt a Jar of which we evidence.
What coul strange proce obviously int picked up enc that a seriow not feasible, idea. Perhzf mysterious w; our langu~gc I think it \’ Kimberley w: were under s’ from a plane Proxima Ce\l! simply a qucs it comes doy cosmic joke b beings from unfortunate it are a sort 01 induce us by them. It is a not think it is
There are, that major 1m taken place i inauguration then app:rer: behind some sumably to se that is, the ne brought down and Peru the] markings on been utilized together with father of the r who came de such traditio] the world, all proof that Sll descended fro
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1277 Unidentijed [18 JANUARY 1979] Flying Objects 1278
(hese sentient and obviously highly in- tdEgent beings from another plane!, if such they be, at the end of an ii}ter- minable journey, arc cOEtent sic PlY to hover about our atri’,osphere and not attempt a landing, or at -least a landing of which we have any uncontrovertible evidence.
What could. be . tl:;-:, paint ?f such stmnge proceedmgs ? LIese senU’;nt and obviouslv intelligent beinr!s n~J1st !:2ve piclced up enough i :1for,r;:~ti n to C’oncIt de that a serious Iandin2: \’:as feasible or, if not feasible, then t(l "ab:’ndon tl:e \"hole idea. Perh<:ps they may even in serre mysterious way ha’i’e been able to m’Jstc! our languzge and penetrate our thol’ghts. I think it was my noble friend Lord Kimberley w1:0 s:>id tbt concciva1:1v they were under 5011’:e sort of thOUl,ht coatrO’! from a planet in the n’:ighb urhood of Proxima Centauri. 1f th2t is ~0 ,’nd it is simply a question of thovght control, then it comes down apparently to a sort of cosmic joke being riaY d by thtse sentient beings from 41 JigU ycms away on the unfortunate inh,\oihnts of this gJobe; they are a sort of h lluc’inatic.ri in that they induce us by thought control to belie...e in ther,,}. It is a conceivable th:ory but I do not think it is a tenable one.
There are, it is true, these who believe that major landings fr’)!1l opter space hrrve taken place in the pBst resulting in the inauguration of a ne’,,’ er2, beings who then apP2.rently witbdrcw after le"ving behind some kind of representative, )Jre- sumably to see how it would all work out; that is, the new civilisation which they had brought d wn to this wc.rld. In Colombia and Peru there are, I understand, strange markings on the grOl’J;.d thought to IH~ve been utilized by some sert of space ships, together with traditions of <;11 other-wordly father of the rate, notably of the Inca race, who came dovl1l from the sky. In fact, such traditions are fairly widespread in the world, although (’.f course there is no proof that such fathe, figures ever reaJIy descended from the sky.
The nearest one in time to our own em -1 c:uote this only to draw attention to the lengths to which this kind of belief can go --is the theory, quite popul2r I believe in Russia, that Christ W9S a CCSmOI?ut, the star of Bethlehem being a large UFO from which, to the amnen~ent of the shepherds, emtrged "the Heavenly Host" who left
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the b:1l:e in the ffi::nger, to the great bf.’!:efit cf aillilankind, nnd then ck’artcd whence tl~c’/ carr,(’. Y O C:’; n b:lieve such. Lc:ctic~’l im~;r";njw’s if vou wi!1. ,1nd rerbJps if vel! beJi ve n\ G divine origin 0 i< C!:d <1 [;.1 ;, is tcachinl7s it would lIot m"tter \crv J ’uch if you Eed that, in my view, r:’ther np!l" semjc~I b;:>!ef. And vel! con ccrt<1inh believe, if you w3nl, tbt UFOs cont::ir, people frnm aJ’!other wnrId \~’hicll is watching us and whGSC intentions ::rc benevo!;nt :md perk ps designed to save our distr2:ct~d pbnet from the horrors of ,mother ymr by sor:1c1:.ow disposing of the wicked and ff..tIS inma::uratin$! a new era. Believe that if yeu ! h.~ ~
r art’. afr:1icl, however, that r.!l sl,ch ima ~inin!!s 2re due chieny to t!:e dis- content \~ith the present human condition and to an lJllcOnsC )l1S desire tv escape from t!J(’ hC!’ s or [.’otl’ntl<1 horrors of our e,~!thJy Jife. Whe:1 we believed that if we \"ere ’-’God we wonkl, when v:e died, go to HC""~i1, there was no inclination to go to some new world 1.1C2.r Andromeda; and whether another wedel other than Heaven itself \-vas w,uching us did not \vorry us overmuch. Presumably, it was the angels.
The more over-populated our planet becomes, the greater the violence and the more appal!ing the wars, the more, unconsciously perhaps, we want to leave
I it i we can or trust in other worldly inter- vention; and the more intense therefore the longing, the greater the temptation to believe tha.t there actually is somewhere else to which we can phys cally go or to which we can somehow make an appeal. It was a great disappointment when the moon was discovered to be 2. mass of grey plasticine, that Mars was even more unpleasant than the middle of the Sahara and that Venus was the nearest thing to Hell.What is the moral? I agree with the
right reverend Prelate, who said so eloquently-we are indebted to him for his intervention---’that perhaps the moral is that we had better not put our trust in saucers for salvation but, rather, con- centrate on how best to conduct our- selves here below so as to live in charity with our neighbours and eventually die in peace. If the UFOs contain sentient beings, we can only leave it to such being to get in touch with us when, and if, they. will. Up to now, if they exist, they have
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1279 Unidentified [LORDS ] F~J’illg Objt>cts 1280 [Lord Gladwyn.J I gyroscopes, and crewed by cherubim; and done no harm of any kind. Apparently I it was a model which has not, so far as I they have done no harm for the last two know, been developed. There have b~en or three thousand years. So there seems I a good many sightings probably before to be no great need to set up intra-I Ezekiel, and certainly then; have bC n governmental machinery to investigate many thousands since, and J fear that there the whole phenomena. The mystery may I has grown up a belief in many minds that suitably remain a mystery, and so far as if an object in the skies is unidentifiable. I can see nobody wiU be in any way the it must be from outer space; and this is worse off if it does. quite unwarranted.
I think that it is worthwhile once again to consider the possibilities. I kno’r’l that this has been done once or twice this evening, but it is part of my argument. I should say that there are possibly two kinds of objects to be seen in the skies: those of terrestrial origin, and those of extra-terrestrial origin. Typical of tho first kind are man-made flying machines, satellites and rockets, and the like. Identifiable objects of the second kind are meteorites and phenomena such as the Northern Lights.
. . ,
~~~
8.50 p.m. Lord KINGS NORTON: My Lords, I should like to add my thanks to those
which the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, has already received for opening the debate in such an extremely interesting way. I found my imagination boggling a little at some of the things he told us. Never- theless, I feel that it is of immense value that this matter has been brought out into the open by the debate in the House, and I hope that as a result of it there will be some progress in the understanding of\vhat is an extremely seriolls matter. I feel that we must be careful about Ollr terminc10gy in discussing the UFO prob- lem, and’1 believe that I shaH make clear. in the course of my remarks what I mean by that. For eX;!.mple, in the past few days, since it was known to my friends that I was to take part in the debate, I have had over and over again the auestion: Do you believe in UF s? I mst say that I think that is rather a silly question, because if I saw sO!’iJetJ1ng the sky which neither I, nor whoe~er happened to be with me, could identify-I have not, but let us suppose that I did--then I should have seen an unidentified flying object, a UFO. I do no~ have to believe in it. I should believe merelv that I had seen it--something that I’ could not explain; and I believe that many people are in that position.
It has been said more than once this evening that this is no new phenomenon. I think that the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, . dated it back to about 1300 BC. Whether my researches have taken me further back, I am not quite surc. However. I am sure that your Lordships will be as familiar as I am with the 10th Chapter of the Book of tile Prophet Ezekiel. He certainly saw something very unfamilar in the firmament, and it certainly could be called I a UFO. It was very dilTerent from the modern ones. It apjwars to have been I coal-fired, to have been stabilised by’
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I am sure that many--and perhaps most-of the sightings recorded and reported are terrestrial in origin: aero- planes with navigation lights glowing at night; satellite launching rockets burning up on re-entry; remotely piloted vehicles, now beginning to be called RPVs; up on trial flights; weather balloons; trick reflections of light. In the extra-terrestrial class I am afraid that I cannot think of anything other than meteorites, Northern Lights and ball lightning, but there are probably other well known physical phenomena within the knowledge of astronomers and meteorologists.
I feel, however, that some of the reports we have had-and we can for the time being leave out Ezekiel-are not readily explained in terms of any of the possibilities which I have mentioned. The New Zealand phenomena are worth much more investigation than they have yet had, but so far, in so far as I have been able to understand what has been reported, they do not appear to be explicable in terms of any of the suggestions which I have so far made. That seems to go for the quite extraordinary widespread sightings recently in Italy, where hundreds of people as reasonble as you and 1, my Lords, seem to have seen quite inexplicable things in the sky. It would be worthwhile trying to explain them, and if there are people who know what they are, they ought to tell us. The high probability in my mind is that
1281
they are te extra-terre, to be feasi! path$ whit wcre ~een are terrest; able to ide’
I bdiev( gation, su Earl, Lorcould not phenomen the earth system. material p system, m of a d: luminous that in (
visible ar certainly ~ explanatic the atsr01 trom out\ be foolish an expla think that exposed t indeed.
If we a inquiry- must liste might ca’ be argue( our hum1 space witl vehicular the MOOargument in space ~ are probi means n using thl stations 1 lines whie mentione must be possibilit’ would ca:
But if as the n’ exclude t intelligen quotat oJ evening, this Hot! .. There a, Horatio ",
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128i Unidentified [18 JANUARY !99] Flyillg Object.v ]282
they are terrestrial in origin, and the only extra-krr:’:5trial possibiJitics do not seem to be fcasibk because of the very eccentric paths which the objects, or lights, which were seen seem to have taken. But if they are terrestrial phenomena, we ought to be able to identify them.
I believe that any dispassionate investi- gation, such as I understand the noble Earl, Lord CJancarty, would wish to have, could not ignore the possibility of the phenomena having their origins outside the earth and perhaps outside the solar system. Just as meteorites are chance material projectiles originating in the solar system, may there not be random matter of a di lerent character-perhaps a luminous but insubstantial character- that in certain circumstances becomes visible and attracted to our area? I certainly should be readier to accept some
I explanation in terms of what I might call the atsronomical phenomena than ships from outer space. It would, I suppose, be foolish to deny that possibility, but as an explanation of phenomena-and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, exposed this-it is surely a very long shot indeed.
If we are to conduct any dispassionate inquiry-and I think that we should-we must listen to the proponents of what one might call the Star Trek view. It can be argued, not unreasonably, that we in our humble way are probing nearby solar space with our Venus and Jupiter and other vehicular probes. We have ventured on to tbe Moon. Is it not presumptuous, the argument goes, to suppose that elsewhere in space creatures more advanced than us are probing into our space, probing with means now occasionally visible to us, using their own RPV s, controlled from stations light years away, rather on the lines which the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, mentioned? It is a possibility which we must be prepared to consider. It is a possibility, though not many of us, I feel, would call it a probability.
But if we do bave a study of UFOs, as the noble Earl desires, we could not exclude the possibility of extra-terrestrial intelligences from our consideration. This quotation has been given twice this evening, as well as a dozen times outside this House in this connection, but, .. There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio ",
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And Heaven, my Lords, has always offered us more pos:,ibilities than earth. Although I remain sceptical of intelligent invasion from outer space, I r~caJl the dictum of the late ~/Jr. Sherlock Holmes when he was investigating the curious matter of the Sign of Four: "When you have diminated the impossible,
whatever remains, however mprobablc, must be the truth".
The desirability of getting rational and acceptable explanations for the odd phenomena which are being reported -even if, like some other para-normal phenomena, they are subjective---in my opinion is not, or should not be, merely to satisfy our curiosity. Here I am coming from rather a different angle to something which was discussed in greater depth by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich.
There is a social danger, in my view, in leaving people in ignorance of the origins of these phenomena. I have recently learned from a number of sources that there have grown up, in North America particularly, many groups and cults whose attitudes are based on beliefs that UFOs are influential outer- spatial manifestations interested in this earth. In some cases these groups are looking to outer space for Man’s salvation. If this is right, it is i’ather disturbing.
I find, too, that in this country there are groups interested, other than purely scientifically, in the UFO phenomena. I had a letter-and I think that other noble Lords may have had the same letter --earlier this week from an ecumenical Christian group which believes, among other things, that UFOs menace the spiritual health of the nation; that they are anti-Christian and that information exists about them which is being withheld. It seems to me that this association of UFOs with mysticism and religion makes explanation of the true origins of the phenomena a matter of great importance and of some urgency. The sooner that each reported sighting or landing is satisfactorily explained, the better. It is no good just laughing them off or trying to laugh them ofT; we must seek the truth and tell it.
My Lords, r remain sceptical, perhaps more sceptical than anyone who has
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1283 Unidentified ( LORDS J FlYing Objects 1284 [Lord Kings Norton.] far with little enough results except to spoken this evening except the noble I wOilckr why th~ bO~lnds of natural p1wsics Lord, Lord Trefgarne. 1 remain sceptical I SC’e!H to be broken. Oi1 all sides. ?VIas! of the more bizarre .;xtra-tec estrial e~.;-.I \Vc:;tc;’n GO.\’CiT,I)’l’11ts say t11:)t UFO$ d.) planations. [remain mOTC than scc)iticaJ. not exist, but I [hi!!:, ~’ut tLc Fre!1c~ ind ed, incredulous, of w;jat the noble Minister cf Dei [JG~, M. Robert G8iiey, in Earl in his 1[ot10n calJed "landings "; I Fehnwry, 1974, said thilt they do; tlwt his but I support l1im whGIcheart:~diy in his Govcrnment takes the-l:! seriously and that wish for a serious !nquiry. r hope that I they 11;;l’,(’ been studied ~ CI’etIy by a sp::ci;il the Government wJ!1 t~ke steps to put department for over .:0 years. Indeed, such an inquiry in ha.nd. Fin~]Jy, I Fr;lI1CC leads the world in UFO research. ceme bac!~ to the matter of tem nology. It has folJov,.’cd up sightings with pelice In his Motion. the noble Earl called for t~an:.s, scientists and scholars and, since "an intra-go\;ernmcntal study". The 1950, the Dellxi me Bureau oftlle Army. noble Lord, Lord Trdgarnc, and, I think, the nobJe Lord, Lord Gladwyn, took this to be an inter-governmental study. But .. intra" means "within". I \Vas puzzled by UH~ ’.!sc of the prdh, but that is what it means and presllmably what the noble Ead meHnt. But why a study within the Government’? I \vould support th,e idea of a Government-suppo.-ted open imestig:nioil by a carefully chose;} group of scicntists ;md technologists \-’lith some funds <:t their disposal; but a study within Government would seem to smack of a secret probe, which \vould be no good at all. J have no objection to a House of Lords study group, but they could scarcely perform in the way that a public organisation supported, say, by the learned societies and t11e engineering institutions could perform. It is something of that kind that I ~hould like to see brought into being under Gov.;;rnmcnt or witil Govern- ment SUpport: a group of dispassionate people with the power, the money and statf on a modest scale to investigate. Perhaps in bs reply later this evening the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, will comment on the suggestion.
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9.4 p.m. Lord RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, first, I must t11211k the nc,b!e Earl, Lord Clanc2rty, for this debate, the subject of which 2S long needed an ciring; and, alth’.::ugh the noble Viscount, Lord Oxfuird, is not in his se<:t, nevertheless r Cor:grc;tuhte him on his speech. The UFO sag4 is deep and complex and there .11’c 11<) kn:J\vn c.’:perts to keep us l!P to date ’.’: h cverything to do W il it including its mcchanics. .However, scientists through- oat ClC world have been drawn into ,:n e’.-er-ine:n:asing ([i.~cussicn 2$ to \-;h.:.<t I UFOs are and wL:re they come f.wm, so
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Oddly, in that same )ie,:r, a rem".rkable report came from Farmingtou, New Mexico, OIl 18th March, wheil the i;:h:bi- tnnts of t1wt town were treated to a dis~)hy of flying s;;ucers thu litera!!)’ fi!Ied the sky above them. Every i/11Dortant Am::ricQo newspa;er told the story. With few excertions, the entirc to\vnship of 5,000 people, including the rn,:yor, newspaper_ rDCl and members of I!1’~ Highway P",trol, bre,;tUcssly w.Hched an Jir show to end tL ;U aU, a fantust i.~ ail circus. Countless saucers Derformed aerial 2crobatics at S,)ccds of i,OOO m.p.h. showing incredible handling, acute control in split-second timing by their ability to avoid collisioi1s.My Lords, th::t WiiS hardly a weather b2lion convention.Is it not curious that we of the 20th cen- tury, \-vit a V~lSt kno\vledge of science behind us, ~;’uuld be blind to further w:)T:ders in the skies above? Men thr0l!’:hout the world have been branded as mad 0’1. mistaken when they have reported hC’ving seen strange sights in the heavens. MailY men have scen these sights atid have not been mistaken. WllO arc we to doubt their word? Who are Governments that dare to ridicule the honest? Not long ago the Loch Ness monster was regarded as a fable, but now our k~c1ing naturalist says that it (or they, possibly) probably exists. Why, then, should unidentified flying objects be any harder to believe, espcc \lly as they h:1VC been seen far more frequ~nt1y? My L’)rds. bf COllrse they exist. Only a few v,:eeks ago a Palermo poJiceman photographed one, and four Italian Navy o cers "board a light patrol bO’lt in tl~e Adridic, ill the early hours of the mcrning, saw a 300-y;)rd long t ery craft rising from the sea nurl disi~ppearing into the sky. Odd, strange, frightening, but apparently quite tn:e. Indeed, why
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UFOs throu them arc vel’ are not, but who see ther this very po by most Go globe. In t those who n to be misinf( below par it why has sam subject beer Ministry of this Ministr: false ir.l\); ili’ false informa civil and A sail rs and public who perience wh frightened th(
My Lords, know; and Governments in one form ( and they do which seem physics. Let toU by Her real details OJ them, for by ( only becomc5 ago a UFO’ the Highlands Forest were b safe to go on Who is to kn But come the that UFOs e how they op’ would be of It! industrial lit~ without wing dead-slow to hover silently. is above pric country shoull every scrap ~ I therefore as: the study of I up a bureau tl and sundry opposition, in
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1285 Unidenrzfled [18 JANUARY 1979 J 1286~;hould these IreD of law enfcrcr;mr;nt 311d tkfcnc,~ Jic? Of C,:,’!fS\.’, t;,,:y Jid l1::<t !ie. \Vhy shou1d ti-.~~:\"!: c~~peci~1I1y :.:s ir~ t>~s c~:s;:: 1..’ . 1 . "" r tHeIr S!g,ltin.? \":~!S C’~lC;:[,G, l [) oy r!~cn ir0111 a eea;by r:~Qar st~iuc~n \"/::’0 S~~\V It, t<JO.Each year there ar~ many sighti;:gs of
UF,Os throughout the world. Some of them arc ver~ close at hamJ. while others arc not, but "[i!W::lYs thc de;:, tlPO;l those who see them is one of concern; i: d yet this very point is ignoi’:d and ridiculed by most Go\’crnmcnts right around the globe, In the Un.; d ;~jngcJom’s C lse, those who report seeing UFOs arc taken to be misinformd, misguided and rather below Dar in imellir,;:nee. If this is so, why ht{s some of m;~’ information on this subject been g;v;;;:~ to me by the Ministry of Technology? Why should this Mio!stry wast;; s time gathering false infurmation? Of course:, j~ is not false information: it is d:tta reportd by civil and Air I.’or,,;; Dilots, oljc"r~1en, sai]ors and members’ of th"e f;eneral public who have all had personal ex- perience which has intrigued and/or frightened them.
My Lords, what are UFOs? I do not know; and nor, 3cemingly, do some Governments: but these machines do exist in one form or another, abstract or solid, and they do travel at stunning speeds which seem to defy oroved natural physics. Let the Uriited Kingdom he told by Her Ma,;esty’s Govanment the rea! details on UFOs so far as they know them, for by continu~’d silence the positioa ’ onJy becomes worse. Only a few weeks ago a UFO was seen near KingL!ssic, in the Highlands, and a fcw acres of Ashdown Forest were burned by another one. 15 it safe to go on ignoring these appearances? Who is to know where they come from? But come they have. If we accept, then, that UFOs exist, we must next wonder how they operate. Their motive power would be of huge help to our transport and industrial life, for they apparently fly \vithout wings at’ varying speeds from dead-slow to incredible ones, and even hover silentiy. This kind of information is above price, and therefor~ we as a country should make every effort to coHeet every scrap of information that we can. I therefore ask this Government to make the study of UFOs respectable by setting up a bureau that can be approached by all and sundry without any red tape or opposition, in an attempt to clear the air.
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Every sighting nd landing must be lhCrOl!ghl:,- invt"~ igatcd by th(~ bureau, iil CO-(1[J8ratiou \y:til the pl.~licc, the n ovaJ Air foret, t}:e wdar people and.
! thc"f,i:ish-based UFO im-estigators. The noble Lord, Lord SlraboIgi, who
is to ,v el up this debate, is no douht sympathetic to the reasons for these ~jJe:::c;hcs, for it has become patently c~)VioUG to a great many people that this sub:cct has Qot to the point \vhcn Govern- m:’:l~,al expI~rmtions ;.mst be forthcoming. A ;rultcr measure of open gOVern!11cnt is lon~,,’ ovel’d"~ ’’’ld brl’I’(T:ncr ~1he U’-;::;n ~~C)’’’’ lit:; ......, ut ,-;::-1..1,’;:,.L .LV ~.....to...t. into the rcalm of r~5pcctability would be one way of achieving this, in part. I suspect that thc British Government do ha’/c a Department st~!dyi"g UFO sight- ings, for why else shou1d they bother to go to such troliblc to publicly debunk report’’.t ones if they arc of no lterest ~o them? Quite apa from the fa.:t that the Govern- ment have not :.ldmitkd to the existence of U]::05, these machi;’.;:3 are potentiaiJy dangerous. They give oir blinding light, crippling rays and sometimes beams that immobilise humans; they start forest fires, eradicate crops and cause great distress to animals. If the British populalion was aware of this, they could sometimes take precautions. UFOs have oecn with us for many generations, so is it not about time that we officially recogniscd their existencc and treated reports as less of a hot P 2(() than hirhei’to?
Before the noblc Earl, Lord Halsbury, takes me to task once again on the subject of sorti:::; booms, I have one suggested answer to the question why these high- speed UFOs do not produce sonic booms. It is thought that these craft can produce a near vacuum envelope around themselv~s, which in turn would allow them virtually unlimited speed because they would thus be free of nearly all normal resistance, as they would be flying within it. Not being a scientist, I cannot enlarge upon this explanation, but I hope it is of some assistance to the noble Earl.9.14 p.m. Lord GAINFORD: My Lords, first
may I add my congratulations to my noble friend Lord Oxfuird for his brilliant maiden speech. I hope that we are going to hear h .1 many times again because it is quite obvious from what we have heard from him this evening that he is going to
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",e [Lord Gainford.] receive every possible encouragement to take part in many debates in the future. My main contribution to this debate is to assure the noble Earl. Lord Clancartv. of any support that I can give. If w are going to have a study group in your Lordships’ House I shall be glad to be a volunteer to take part whenever I have the opportunity. I also thank him and others for initiating this debate, and for the pleasure of having such a refreshing subject to discuss in the midst of the present period of crices and strikes. I am the 10th person to speak in this debate. I have noticed that so far none of your Lordships havc actually reporte:l a sighting, so here goes! 1 am going to stick my neck out, open my big mouth and trust I am not going to put my foot in it! I saw a UFO a little while ago. It ,vas on 31st December about 8 p.m. AIl right, my Lords, have a good laugh, it was Hogmanay! Up in ArgyIl it was a New Year’s Eve party and somebody said there was something funny flying across the sky. Fifteen of us came out to have a look, induding some children. They had been drinking soft drinks anyway! The object was like a bright white ball with a touch I of red followed by a ,,,hite cone. In fact I the whole object had the appearance of a ’
small comet. It was heading eastwards and seemed rather low in the sky, passing I over the hills between Loch Sweyne and Loch Fyne. Tbe position from which we viewed it was outside the village of Tay- valIich in Argyllslre on the West coast, of Scotland about the same latitude as Glasgow.
As the ball disappeared into the distance it seemed to divide into two parts. It may have, been a comet or a meteorite, but I should like to know what it really was. It would have been very beneficial if there had been some sort of centre to which I could write or telephone to report such an incident. No doubt setting up such an organisation \vould be an invita- tion to pranks, but for starting such a centre I suggest that volunteers could readily be found from the ranks of the former Civil Defence Service and/or the Royal Observer Corps. The Royal Ob- server Corps still exists but it has literally, if not metaphorically, gone underground where it is preparing to report and advise on nuclear fallout in the case of war. But there are many who used to serve it
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r LORDS J Flying Objects 1288 I and ",110 have not yet disappeared from I the scene who could make valuable Use I of their past experience in establiShing I centres in various districts throughout the I country-and I do not suggest that We I start opening up the old observer posts I in the countryside-to receive and analyse I any reported sightings from the public. ’ Such people with a sense of responsibility could, with a little experience, sift the genuine reports from the false.
Suggesting that such an organisation be set up, particularly at times like these, can naturaJIy give rise to a protest about the waste of public money; but volunteers who might be wiJJing to work for a few hours are quite prepared to do it for very small remuneration, if any at all. I have mentioned the Civil Defence Service, and I did not know whether or 110t I should declare an interest, but I was a member of it during the ’sixties and I was one of many who were bitterly disappointed when it had to go into abeyance. I recall ,particularly the cOIl1.radeship and the sense that we were doing a useful job for the community. ’
If r had the time and opportunity, I should enjoy volunteering for working in a UFO information centre, if that might be a suggested name for the organisation that would be required. I shaH be interested to hear the summings up in this debate. I can give no explana- tion why there should be these phenomena concentrated within pa.rticularly the past 32 years as was confirmed by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and these flying saucers in the year 1947 when the phrase was coined; but I would just accentuate what has been said before and add that if they are man-made or some astronomical feature, and provided there is no risk of any security breach, then the public have a right to know about them.
9.20 p.m. The Earl of HALSBUR Y: My Lords, in common with everyone else who has spoken, I should like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for giving us an opportunity to have, as it were, a scamper over the course and exchange views on this very interesting and controversial topic. At the same time, I should like to congratulate the noble Viscount on his maiden speech, whi(;h was obviously a very well thought out and well assemble
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At the the nobl, like to te the sight them in beginnin, an angel. the nobl who me was the the nobl is perfe{ guardian bed. N~ a child, ,
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ugani,ation ,"’, like these, pt,Jlest about -,ut volunteers >;’I; for a few do it for very .t all. 1 have , Service, and no[ I should ~\ mcmba of \’,~\s one of
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port unity, I ’Of workizw: :tre, if that .1e for the ~cquircd. I ’,: summings no explana- ;:>l1coomcna I y the past .’ the noble i\cse flying t he phras~ accentuate
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1289 r.":-nidcn.’ifird [13 JANUARY. 1979] P’,~0set of considerations, which augurs well for his future in your Lordships’ House, where 1 know he is alrcady weleom;:.
I\t the risk of capping the stories of the noble Lord. Lord Gainforfi, ! sh,’u!d like to telJ your Lordships about some of the sightings I ha’,’c seen. I wiI! order them in terms of mv curriculum ritae, beginning at the age ~f six, when I saw an angeL I do no; know whether it was the noble Lord, Lord Davie> of Leek, who mentioned anr~els, or wl:clher it was the noble Lord: Lord Trefgarne, or the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley; but it is perfect]y true that there was my guardian angel sitting on the edge of my bed. Naturally, with the imagination of a child, I clothed this presence in human form with a large pair of feathery wings. This presence proceeded to rebuke me for initiating a practice which it said would get me into trouble if J persisted in it. Having remembered the rebuke aU my life and acted upon it, I am not prepared to deny the reality of the presence that was there with me. This should be a sufficient answer to the noble Earl--I see I have put him to flight.-who thinks that if scientists come across something they cannot explain they are afflicted with a kind of vertigo. On the contrary, we welcome something we cannot explain because it is a new phenomenon which, as it were, stretches our capacities and brings out something in us.
The next item came along in year two of World War 1. I was about eight years old, and the next thing that I sighted were Zeppelins. I used to go out after dark into the garden of the house where we lived and come back reporting the number of Zeppelins I had seen. What I had seen, in my interpretation of it, a Zeppelin-it was a large illuminated cigar-shaped object. In fact what I was looking at was the lenticular shape that the perspective of a searchlight thrown . on to a cloud-base makes, and I was interpreting it as a Zeppelin and I was telling my parents how many Zeppelins I had seen.
The next one is sundogs and this fits very closely with what the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, was saying about Macbeth’s dagger and the laser holeo- graphic reconstruction of things which really are not there. What sort of an interpretation would somebody who had B.L.S Q
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Flyin:r O!"ecl.~never read about these or read about them put l! pon sundogs? MOSL people have not seen them Of re~1d abour them. r V,fas fortunate enol1~h to have read td)(iut th~m and to have known the e"-planation b<::fore 1 saw the [;rst.\Vhen you look at a cloud with drops
of water, you are looking at a diffuse rcl1ection of the wn but if instead of there being drops of water in the cloud there are drops f ice, .and if they were form d unJcr U1 tcoro]ozical conditions where aJi the facets of the~clystaIs happen to be parallel as they !’:ill through a rising stream so that they are remaining roughly stationary, the e fect is of a naher dilute mirror. if one can so describe it. If the sun is up there, you see it actually reflected in this imagina y mirror down through the cloud, and one does not eXDect to see the sun looking do\vn in this di~cction. Still less does one expect to perceive it travelling along beside one. Furthermore, one is not accustomed to focusing one’s eyes on infil ty in that particular direction. The only times it wouJd be appropriate to do so would be if you were standing on top of a skyscraper where the vanishing point would be do;.vn here instead of over there, and it makes you rather dizzy.
Seeing a sky dog is a rather uncanny sort of phenomenon. You cannot focus on it properly; it does not seem to be anywhere in particular. It is flying along beside you-.and what sort of terms would a person, who had never seen it before or read about it, report it in? I think that they would be rather bewildered. They might report it just as a child would report the vision of an angel as having human form and feathery wings~ So it might easily be reported as anythihg that , they had read about.
I now come to the green flash. I was about 20 and a student, and there was a controversy in the pages of The T nes and in the correspondence columns of Nature about the green flash. What is it? Under certain rather rare atmospheric conditions, the last glim of the setting sun suddenly flashes brilliant emerald green. When I was a student 50 years ago, this phenomenon - was not really established. It was possible to have a controversy as to whether there was such a phenomenon. People wrote to The Times saying that they had seen it. I remember one man who said that he
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[The Earl of Halsbury.] had seen it when sitting by the shore olr Bombay. [t was eventually photographed during the International Geophysical Year, the IGY, some years ago. However, before that ! saw it myself in rather odd circumstances, after having The Earl of HALSBURY: Yes, my read about it. I was bird watching in Lords, and one can reproduce a mirage the t~!r North- \Vest of Scotland, by a-sea in the laboratory. You have a long tray loch caIled Loch Glcw::oul, near a little of sand with bunsen burners unde;1eath viII age called Drumbcg, where there is a it, and you look at it from one end. It cliff path. On that cliff path, there is a is quile a reproducible kind of phenomen. bench for the convenierce of people who Science deals with material objects- want to sit down and admire the view. things such as atoms and molecules’ Another traveIler, a visitor co the district, material processes-things such as th~ was sitting upon the bench when I sat emission and absoption of radiation; down and, by a chance coincidence, we and material forces-things such as the were both using the same type of I-lensholt force fields which couple the objects to binoculars and ’we got talking about our the processes. But if things are not binoculars. There was a spectacular material, then science has nothing to say. sunset, and when the sun was very low If you want to know what is the COll- and it was safe to look at it through sciousness of a mind, I do not think . binoculars, I said to my fellow traveller, science can either answer the question, "Let us see if we can watch the green on the one hand, or say \vhether it is a flash". So we trained our binoculars proper question, on the other hand. and this very rare meteorological pheno- Therefore. from the scientific point of menon actuaJIy happened when I had view, I can deal only wilh the assumption just said to a feHo\-\’ bird watcher, "Let that these are material objects, 2nd, if they us have a .look to see if it happens". are material objects, then, if they travel What would that person have made of it at the kind of speeds that arc alleged, . if I had not been there, just by chance, why do they not make supersonic bangs: to wI! him what the green flash was when travelling above M:ach l? The. about? noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, made this point, and the noble Lord, Lord Lastly, I come to baH lightning. I
RankeilJour, also made it. I shol d like have never seen baJJ lightning, but the to go into the point in a little more depth. description one reads of it is so coberent, so similar in all Gase~, rhat one must accept We customarily express the speeds of it as a phenomenon which occurs regularly fast moving objects in terms of Mach in nature, though we cannot reproduce numbers. Mach 1 is the speed of sound it in nature and attempts to reproduce it appropriate to temperature and pressure in the laboratory are, to my mind, where the sound is being propagated. unconvincing. There is no tbeory of it. In terms of miles per hour, it is not a It appears to take the form of a football- constant figure, but the advantage of using shaped mass of glowing gas which hops it as a parameter is that no matter what the around or, if it has a chance, gets on to a I temperature and pressure may be, Mach I conductor ~;uch as the rail in the gallery I is the speed at which the kinetic energy of here and migrates along the conductor I a moving object-that is, the power to until it finally disappears with a bang. I pack punch-is equal to its thermal It has never been sfltisfactorily photo- energy. This is an unstable condition. graphed, to my knowledge. If it has The least disturbance to these unstable been, then the photograph must be a conditions entails the converison of kinetic fairly recent one, and, as I say, it has not energy into thermal energy with a bang, and been reproduced. But this, again, should this is what is called the shock wave. If assure the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, one takes a cross section through a shock that, faced with an unknown phenomenon wave, there is a rise in pressure, tempera- which I cannot explain, I do not get ture and entropy. There is complete vertigo. J should be delighted to go discontinuity. That must happen when a ball lighll1ing watchi!1g, as I go bird material object is moving at Mach 1 or watching. above through any medium.
(LORDS] FlY lg Objeel,\’ 1292Lord Dr’\. VIES of LEEK: Jvly Lords, may 1 ask the noble Farl one question? Has h;~ ever seen a mirage? That is easily explicable, and one can also see it easily.
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I was nUl that the rigb of Norwich by same of Lord, Lord too. I do reads the C H.L. 8 Q2
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1293 Ullidemified [ 18 JANUARY 1979] Flying Objects 1294 Thl; answ(;[ to the qucstion put by thc’ ’ fiction. Out of the Silent Pianct, Pere/andra, nlihk LonL Lord Ra"kd]our-I ha’,’;: ar\d That HideollS Strength, will ever have not had V(’fV IO:1~~ to thin!, it cHI! bccali~\.’ his faith disturb..:d by doing so. C. S. h.? sprung it’ en n{e a, a bit of a surprise- L<:\vis. who was a profoundly Christian is this, It’ you were to create: a vacuum, apologist. wrote the most marvellous space what would happen to the air you had dis- fiction of a complex univasc, in which placed’? Would you puJJ it in in front some of the created species were tempted aud push it out behind’? lf that is your and fallen, like ourselves; others were means of travelling through [he medium. tempted and unfalJen; and others were you are merely moving sam;:: air back- untempred. And they all had to live \\lmls at the speed of sound, and it would together in the same universe. I have create a supersonic bang just the same. always regarded the deeps of space and the Customarily, very often we hear two immense time that it would take to travcl bangs because there is a bow wave and a from one inhabited world to another as stern wave from the moving otject. Some- being a kind of divine. quarantine to times the bang degenerates into a rumble, prevent created beings from interfering just as. a thunderclap degenerates into a with one another’s cultures until they are rumble. Anv noble Lords who have h~en ciyi!ised enough and mature enough to uncomfortab y close to a lightening bolt reach the point when they no longer want are aware that it makes a very pronounced to do so. Too much of our science bang as the spark flies through the air. l tioi1 is taken up with the supposition
that vastly superior b-:ings to ourselves . If these are material objects and if they are motivated by. the same rather un- are moving at the speeds alkged, r cannot worthy commercial motives as ours, see th-:m doing oth r than making a bang, and that they want to steal our coal mines so either they are not material objects or or our water or set up imperialisms. i they are not moving at the spCt’ds alleged, ( in which case the speeds arc some kind of The little piece of fiction that r have
optical illusion. This thro\\’s doubt upon always enjoyed most concerned a flying the rest ofHw reports that we received upon sallcer which was hovering slowly in a them. circle round Central Park in New York and all the security forces turned out in order to do sometpJng about it. As it went round, it became more and more dear that it was going round in a spiral and not a circle and. as the spiral grew for faJs~ reflections of smaller so the flying saucer grew smalJer until it was very little more than the size of a waistcoat button going round the head of a maiden in New York Central Park. All the security forces converged on ~er because it was clear from the expres- sIOn on her face that she was receiving a messag~, at which she smiled. Finally, the waIstcoat button fell on to the path and was picked up and proved to be a waistcoat button and the security forces converged upon the maiden and bullied her into telling them-and she did not want to-what the flying saucer had told her. She said" I don’t want to, because it ~vill spoil it all." They said " Never mind, It may be very important for the security of the United States". She said" WelL all it said was’ Don’t be unhappy; you are not the only lonely object in the universe’." I think that is a much more comforting thought with which to approach the subject of flying saucers than to sup- pose that they are engaged iq some kind of imperialism.
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In this week’s Nelv Scientist, published today, there is a report from New Zealand, and I should like to read to YOllr Lordships a passage from it: .. Classic conditions radar beams"- this tunes in very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, said--.. existed in the atmosphere over New Zealand on the nights that Ihe UFOs were spotted at the end of December, Christchurch meteorologist, Dr. Neil Cherry, has reported. UFOs were both spotted 001 radar and seen by an airline pilot, and a brilliant light was subsequently filmed by an airborne TV crew n.
There is nothing in that report to suggest whether the optical sightings and the radar sightings came from the same point, or on the same alignment, or at the same time. We shall have to wait until the details become available.
1 was much impressed by everything that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich had to say on this matter and by some of the things which the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, had to say, too. I do not think that anybody who reads the C. S. Lewis trilogy of space H.L. 8 Q2
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[The Earl of Halsbury.] Personally r have always believed, with
the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, in the Lochness monster. He is not the only person to believe in it. He was anti- cipated by Keats and I am quite sure that, when the poet wrote the line,
" Thou still unravishcd bride of quietness ", he. must have had the monster in mind. Of course he did not go into it in great detail: he did not tell us whether the monster was viviparous or oviparous. It may, of course, lay eggs, but if unravished, then infertile, and that is perhaps why there is only one of it. 1 have always thought that just as mother, when baking bread, leaves a little of the dough over in order that the children may make funny little men with raisins for tummy buttons and put them into ovens and bake them along- side the bread or the cake for the day, so possibly on the day of creation a little of the Divine creative power was left in reserve ’for the lesser cherubim and seraphim to use and they were allowed to make funny littie objects like the Abo- minable Snowm:’m and the Lochness monster, and therefore by the grace of God since this is an orderly universe and a home is provided for everything, so the snows of Tibet were created for the benefit of the Yeti and Lochness was created for the monster.
"’-’Lord HEWLETT: My Lords, I join
other noble LCirds in congr:1tu!ating the noble Viscount, Lord OxfuiI:d, upon his maiden speech but I run the terrible risk of being accused by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Lcek, of being an anthro- pological . arrogant specimen. I am not quite sure what that means, a~d 1 am not quite sure that he knows what It means.
. Lord DA VIES of LEEK: Oh!
Lord HEWLETT: All right, I am prepared to stand bv it. I am only sorry to appear to be a ve~itable Daniel in ~ lions’ den of UFO belIevers and to spOIl the fun and I have no doubt that today’s flights
’ of---dare I say it ?-fancy will
command far more attention than our debate yest~rday upon British industry, which scarcely made today’s Press at all. More’s the pity. Of course, there is a d:mger in terminology and in gross assumptions. Many noble Lords have spoken as though UFOs were actually
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[LORDS] FlYing Objects 1296something, but of course we are precisely saying that if they are unidentifi.ed flying objects, we do not know what they are. So 1 quite agree, let us dismiss the concept or t1ying saucer equals UFO to start with. Let us try to take a slightly more scientific approach.
r would not dream of speaking in this debate had I not asked my very good friend and neighbour in the Cheshire \’iJI~:ge of Swettenham, Sir Bernard Lovell, FeJIow of the Royd Society and Nuffield Professor of Radio Astronomy, to be good enough to brief me at Manchester University Department of Radio Astron- omy at JodrelI Bank, of which he is the Director. I went there two days ago and what I am about to say to your Lordships is based entirely upon that round table meeting with Sir Bernard and the members of his ~senior staff at JodreJl Bank. Of all the thousands of reports of sightings that have.been m"de, whenever it has been possible to make an investigation they ha ve been found to be natural phenomena, or in some instances, I regret to say, pure myth. Over the United K;ngdom, Jodrell Bank’s radio telescope, the t rst and still one of the most powerful in the world, has observed thousands of possible subjects for identitcation as UFOs, but not a single one has proved other than natural phenomena. I would ask the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, to take the point on board. If UFOs, as he suggested, defy lurman knowledge, how do we really know by what possible means or possible background they even exist at all? Let us get matters into perspective, my Lords, I beg you. At least 10,000 pieces of broken up rockets of American and
Russian origin are known to exist in space and maybe there are many thousands more, and occasionally they do plough back into the atmosphere and burn up. Those must account, I think your. Lord- ships would agree, for at least some of the so-called sightings of UFOs. Nature does provide firebaJls,. yes, meteorites, which bombard the earth at a rate of half a ton a day. Just take a tiny country like Holland. One hundred rocks the size of your fist come through the atmos- phere and hit that country in one year. Consider Holland in relation to the size of the whole of the world’s surface and you must surely rcalise that we are under constant bombardment, not with UFOs but with meteorites. A detailed study
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Sir Bernard Loven, .Iciety and Nullield ’\srronomy, to be me at Manchester of Radio Astron-
of which he is the two days ago and to your Lordships that round table
j .nd the members JodreIl Bank. Of ~rorts of sightings .:enever It has been investigation they JtLtral phenomena regret to say, pur~ Kingdom, Jodrell the I1rst and still ’ful in the world f. , ’~posslble subjects i" Os, but not a ,ther than natural ;k the noble Earl ke the point o~ ~ suggested, defy .v do we really :J,cans or possible .ISt at all? ! perspective, my ast 10,000 pieces r American and wn to exist in many thousands they do plough ~ and burn up. link your. Lord- t least some of UFOs. Nature its, meteorites 1t a rate of half a tiny country Ired rocks the ugh the atmos- oY in one year. Ion to the size !’s surface and t we are under )t with UFOs detailed study
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1297 Unidelltified r 18 JANUARY 1979 J . Flying Objects -1298 on the Canadian prairies ha,> displayed scientific lobby and some nasty, cheap how great is this bombardment which [ ck:bunking exerci~e. No. mv Lords. We have just described over a ,,\ ide area. must tak; a scnOClS scieI~tifrc VI W of the Even more staggering is (he fact that iT is actual surveys and of what has been estimated that 8,000 miilion pjeces of stone discovered. and metal come to earth annuallv, many of these burning UD on arrival ar’JcI thes’c . give cause for these> reports of unidentified flying objects.
What is noticeable is the clc.se correlation between the position of the planet Venus and the reports of UFOs, for when Venus is low and bright in the sky and when it is shining through thick mist or thin cloud it docs much more resemble something , other than our next door planet of the solar system. Why, indeed, ,ve are told even the great President Carter has spotted one:’ but it is a pity we did not read the rest of the subsequent report. It was later discovered that that was Venus precisely in those conditions I have described. If the great President of the United States can be wrong, it is just possible the few noble Lords remaining in this House tonight might be, too. Let us face it, we all would love to escape from the miseries and frustrations of our worJd, and particular]y in these recent past days. by all means go and see" Star Wars" or " Jaws" or any other myth, but do not confuse that with very serious scientific study. That is carrying romance a little too far. We must make sure we do not make your Lordships’ House a laughing stock by doing so.
One of the most advanced experimental stations at Jodrell Bank-just take these statistics on board please, my Lords- has been on watch 24 hours a day for 30 years. Do you not think it reasonable for me to suggest that if there were UFOs at least one claim would have been made, but every single thing that has been’ seen and observed by radio astronomy has been identified as natural phenomena and as occurring from the universe itself as we know it-I do not say from the solar system; I say from our universe. If there were something in it-and the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, is so right- of course the scientists would have been delighted to come forward with an announcement to that effect. After all, it was Jodrel! Bank that managed to locate the Sputnik when the Russians, who so cleverly launched it, Jost track of it in the atmosphere. So do not think that this is some denigrating comment by the
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Lord DA V1ES of LEEK: My Lords, I am deli!!hted to hear what the noble Lord says.
~ However, I beg the noble Lord
to remember th::tt there are other scientists who say thi.1t of course we know that there are mcteor es-there have been for tbe whole of time--but there are some factors outside that range which justify (and this is a11 we ask) an attempt at identification. There is no difficulty’ in identifying meteorites. \Ve are not asking for that: we are asking for the identification of other types of phenomena.
Lord HEWLETT: My Lords, that promptly begs the question. That is precisely what I am saying. The identi- cations that have been made are not necessarily of individual meteorites: they are of endemic ponions of rockets and so on. During 30 years study and a constant watch for 24 hours a day there has been not a single sighting of any description which could possibly or remotely be considered worthy of serious study as a UFO. Every single thing has been explicable. With all respect, it is no ).Ise noble Lords saying that this is not a convenient answer: v,:e must find some things that are not explicable. I am teJling your Lordships and it is perfectly fair. Your Lordships may say "S:ientists". I am quoting one of the leading world, radio astronomers-indeed, probably the leading world radio astronomer. Frankly, scientists can be anything from a B.Sc. London University, passed yesterday. However, I am talking about 30 y:::ars experience of radio astronomy and a professorship of the highest standing and order in the whole world. Both the United States and theS viet Union come to Sir Bernard at Jodrell Bank for assistance. .
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, nobody is denigrating what the noble Lord is saying, but he. is off beat here. All we are saying is that there are some of these phenomena that need investigation~ that is all.
Lord HEWLETT: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord could show me just one
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trying to prove the existence of nothing or that something does not exist. r am saying that in tl~e scientific evidence so far--and I can deal only in detail with the United Kitwdorn---there is 11<) c\id\:lce whatever from the greatest radio telescope of a single UFO. 1 think that the attitudes of defence establishments world- wide, even including the Soviet Union, are probably wise: they must display the antithesis of over-confidence and com- placency, lest thcre should perchance be some new arm of warfare that thev have not adequately explored or even e~1tered. Particularly did this attitude apply in the first decade after the Second World War when, frankly, the start of the ., cold war" alld the intense fear of the Soviet Union’s possible aggression against the West when we \\ere the sole possessors of atomic \"capons, must have provoked such a degree of intense interest in the possibility of 3. new arm of warfare.
I am sorry that the right reverend The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, Prelate the Bishop of Norwich is not does the noble Lord not think it con- here, but [ am glad that the noble Lord, ceivable that Jodrell Bank says that there Lord Trefgarne, is on the Opposition abre no UldFOs bec?,ause that is what it has I Front Bench. I quote from Sir Bernard: een to to say.
. .. Whether we are the only people H1 the I universe is entire/v allOther matter. That is a Lord HEWLEIT: I certainly think it subject of very sei-ious importance and is being inconceivable-absolutely and completely I investigated ". inconceivable. f have known this But there is no direct connection betv/cen scientist personally for more than 30 I the possibility of other persons occupying years. I would not dream of going other bodies, either within or outside along for a briefing, so to speak, on the ! our own solar system. However, one estilOation that he was to con me or that: thing is quite clear: there is an intinitesimal I was some tool of the CIA to kid YOllr i chance that there exists other people who Lordships_ Please do not let us carry I could be within our time-frame--and I this fantasy too far. I shall deal with I refer of COurse to the statements made by one or two other aspects of the nobk ’
the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and the Earl’s speech and then he shaJJ see some noble Earl, Lord Halsbury-who would correlation to the whole of my argument. be able to speqd perhaps ten or hundreds L . h f ... . i of light years getting here and who would et us tUIn to t e de enc~ II1telests of i have survived that length of time in those the P~ntagon. and ,other Western defence ; atrocious conditions and entered our earth establtshm...nts. \\ hen they have been I atmosphere assuming that they are some chalJenged they J.1ave r~fllsed tOt say th~t I sort of humanity and have Some form of UFOs do not eXI~t. N?r ~ave hey saId flying saucer, or whatever our friends th~t UFOs do. eXIst. Tney are not com-
I proclaim it is. How could they possibly mItted. We ale all men of t~1e wOrl,d and I meet us in those circumstances? Let us frankly ~here are adv,~ntages 111 makIl1~ an , take the miJIion-to-one possibility that II1tern~tlonal over-est1l1’~ate 0\ the Possl~Je they could. Do your Lordships mean to potential str~ngth.. of one s potentt~tl tell me that they could get so close to us enemy ~nd hl~ ability to combat one 111 as to be sighted, but be incapable of any sectors 111 ,~hlch one. cannot adequately form of communication or identification repl~. r think that It woul~ be most whatever? No, 1 am sorry. unwise of any defence establishment to make a categorical denial of UFOs, and - cquaJiy foolish of me to do so. I am not
. 1299 (JlIide"l/fit1ed
[Lord Hewlett.] phenomenon which requires----I .havc given way a good number of times and 1 should be grateful if the noble Lord would let me finish my sentence. I am saying that JodreJl Bank. which covers the whole of the United Kingdom, has been on watch for 30 years. It is probably the most powerful radio telescope in the world. With great respect, if it has found nothing I whatsoever to report in a positive way I then, for the noble Lord, Lord Davies of i Leek, to throw at me, .. some scientists think that. . . " is not good enough.Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords. we must not take more time.
Lord HEWLETT: No my Lords, we must not, so f fear that the noble Lord must give way to the argument. {shall give way to the l10bJe Ear! Lord Kimberley. - I knew that I should have a rough time!
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)JOt Unidcntlfied [ 18 JANUARY 1979] flying Objects 1302
Earls. Lonl Clancartv and Lord Kimberley, h::ve chimed si(!:1til125 from time:; DCr,);’:.: ("h’ris:’~ tl .rcH.~l2h~’ thc~\:1i(~dte i\~rr’:-S un to the present cIa)’. Th,)se noble [’ads !~,.! w fun wdi that tl"h~ ~’.m()unt of s i’:ntiik knowkdg in tbe r\!iddit Ages, and parLi- cularly before the times of Christ. simply did not aliow a tenab!c theory that they ha that dcgr’c of knowledge" to be abl
;. to understand any of tlh~ phenomena that we know today, Indeed. in the last 30 years there has l)ecn a dramatic c :lngc in the sum total of knowledge in this ficld, No doubt that is why Jcd’rell BHnk can proclaim that they have had no evidence of sightings of any description which arc not perfectly explicable as natural pheno- mena within our own universe.
I am sorry, th:: existence of UFOs is e\cn Ilwrc f,mcifuI than Gilberl and Sullivan’s Iolanthe-charming indeed, but I am afraid a joke upon your Lordships’ I-louse. I am afraid that some of my noble friends join the flat-.:artbers, who will make the best playmates for tbis
I particular lobby. We have a duty to the
, coun) try tlo explode dthe myth. Tlonighft we 1avc 1cen carrie away in rea ms 0 fascina ion and delight, but they have precious little to do with the facts. I suggest that the myth must be exploded. We must return to work in this drearv old world and the difficulties we arc ir . But I beg your Lordships, and in particular the nobit: Lord, Lord Strabolgi, for heavens’ sake, no more Governmcnt Dcparlmr:nts of inquiries. That alone we should be spared as the result of this excellent debate.
9.55 p.m. The Earl of CORK and ORRERY: My
Lords, r hope that the noble Earl, Lorel Clancarty, will not be cast down by the speech to which he has just listened. I myself must confess that I know re- markably little about unidentified flying objects. I know a few things about them. J know quite a bit, and I have learned more since the beginning of this debate, about attitudes towards them. They are almost as interesting in some ways. There is one type of attitude towards them that I view with respect, and that is the attitude represented by people who call themselves, or perhaps to be fair arc calJed by others, " ufologists ". I do not know whether the noble Earl will accept that word. I rather hope he would not.
I admit the charm, the salisfp.ction, and the Jle:ltn~:.~; of uro as---this is the word the ~10;’!’~ L’)ri,j, Lord D:lvies of L cd:, is so good at---an acronym, coming from .. unidcnti!ic(; flying object". But it unfonunatdy leads to a word which to disrespccl ul persons, and there arc 50mc about, might be sHspectt’d as originating somewhere between i!!item y and the purely silly: rather as tlH)ugh a keen student of the affairs of the. United Nations should describe himself as a "Unologist ", and his inter~st" Unology". That \\’ould have been sc\’crelv distressing to my late lamented friend Lord COl1esford~ and indeed to me.
If there is an agency set up for colJecting and correlation of information, as I hope there will be. I suppose it could be ca!1ed " Ufo info ", which would have a certain elfin charm. But I am. admittedly bcinrr absurd, and being so on purpose: fan) doing it for defensive reasons, and I hope that the noble Earl \\iI! not think that I am bcing offensive. I am not. I hope that somebody will think of a better word. There is in fact a Greek word " t ras ", meaning a portent in the sense of a marvel or wonder, which would generate quite nicely a teratologist, or teratology. In fact I am not surc that teratolo.~y is not in the dictionary as the study of monsters. It i~ not a word that is widely u,ed. It is 110t on everyone’s lips very onen, and it wou d not really matter if it v/ere taken over to refer to portents. There is a precedent for this kind of thing, in television. As noble Lords will know, television originally meant, before it meant what it means now in the familiar sense as we understand it, clairvoyance, and nobody finds any confusion now, Whatever it may. be known a s, let us proceed and not waste time.
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I must make a. remark-nobody has done so so far, I suspect rather to his surprise-about the speech of my noble friend Lord Trefgarne. If he had been speaking as a private Back-Bencher I would probably have not said anything, but he was speaking from the Dispatch Box. Therefore, he presumably represents the views of the Party to which I belong. It is a view I wish to disown entirely, because if a Party of any magnitude cannot produce better vicws than that on a serious subject, I confess I am ashamed
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[The Earl of Cork and Orrery.] of it. If this represents all that the Conservative Party can produce in the way of thinking on what is undoubtedly a serious subject, whatever your opinion about t may be, then this is deplorable.
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If the noble Lord really thinks that there is no serious interest or belief taken nowadays in witchcraft, perhaps he docs not read the right newspapers, but I can assure him that this is far from true. He is not a believer in unidentified i1ying objects. "I am no believer in UFOs ", he said. I do not know how you can not believe in UFOs. You can take it for granted, if your mind takes a !eap ahead, that by an unidentified i1ying object something is. intended that is supposed to have originated in outer space, and you can say you do not believe in that. But I do not know what it implies to say that you do not believe in an unidentit ed Hying object. You do not believe in the object? You do not believe in its flying? You do not believe it is unidentifed? There are things that are unidentified. Perhaps we arc not trying. I do not think it is reasonable to say that they do not exist. Nobody, except my noble friend Lord Hewlett, has seriously contended that they do not exist. The question is, \vhat are they?
Lord TREFGARNE: I am pleased my noble friend has a1lowed me to intervene, my Lords, because he has been very caustic about \\hat I had to say. I do not deny the existence of unidentified flying objects. I simply say that most of them are iden- tifiable, that some are not objects at all but simply a trick of the light or a meteo- rological ’phellonemon-I think that is so in many cases-and that I agree onc cannot deny the existence of unidentified flying objects. It is simply a question of how we identify them.
The Earl of CORK and ORRERY: My Lords, I take my noble friend’s point. I am anxious not to misquote him, but he also said that ufologists-it is difficult not to use that word--refeued to un- explained sightings which would be explained if only we had better evidence; that was the gist of one part of my noble friend’s argument. In other words, if we had better evidence we should be able to explain those sightings. That is the sole point on which the noble Earl initiated
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f LORDS ] Flying bje ts ] 3o.r this debate. That is what he is asking for: he wishes evidence to be colI;cted, collated, examined, evaluated and reported on as to what these things are, and it is notable that he himsdf did not say what he thought they were. Other nobk Lords have spoken as though he had said they were fairies or I do not know what. when in fact he said no such thing. I believe he is a leading authority on these matters- certainly he has studied them more closely than anyone else of whom I have heard- and he
- must have exercised very great
restraint in this matter, and he is to be cOIH!ratulated on that as well as on inid ting the whole debate.
lance had an ancestor-I still have him in a sense, in that he is still my ancestor although he is dead--called Robert Boyle \~ho founded a. society called the Royal Society. I feel that if he returned to the rooms of that enor- mously prestigious society now and found that the present Royal Society contained Fellows of such erudition and charm as the noble Ea , Lord Halsbury, he would feel entirely at home; a man of the most agreeable and totally nOli-sceptical nature, even if he did write a book called The Sceptical Chemist. The noble Earl has done a service by
displaying before our very eyes the scientist-philosopher who knows precisely the limits of science and makes no effort to go beyond them. Nor does he point the finger of scorn at anyone else. He must know, as others know, that it is impossible to prove anything by negative evidence. If you wish to prove that something is not so you can do it only in logic-by proving the existence of something that is so that makes that first premise impossible. Thus, vou cannot prove that any particular type of flying object does not exist, and with respect to my noble friend, the fact that the Jodrell Bank telescope has not seen something not only does not prove, but is not even particularly good evidence, that it was not there. I am prepared to accept, if told, that the Jodrell Bank telescope has been operating on a fre- quency suited to the observati n of UFOs of one kind or another’ for’ the last 30 years, but, until I am told that, I shall be sceptical in that matter.
Lord HEWLETT: Let me be quite clear about this, my Lords. I did not say other than that Jodrell Bank had made
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thought that J had my noble fri~nd righ" i my Lords; in other words, the telescope I has not seen anything that was inexplic- able. But J do not think that that is really I an argument that something does not exist. ’The question is: what kind of I thing c;.m it be’? I hope that my noble i friend docs not think that I am going on about him-I no longer am. How is it possible to maintain more than a certain degree of doubt in 1979?
I remember, as may some other noble Lords, one or two of whom may be present in the Chamber, my predecessor who sat in this Housc. He was born in the veal’ 1886. When he was born there wer no motor-bicycles or gramophones, fountain pens, safety razors or electric trains. Messrs. Daimler and Benz in Germany were just putting tbe first petrol-driven car on to the road, and Einstein, I think, was eight years old. Iv1y noble and galJant kinsman, when he finally left the active list of the Navy at a very advanced age, had lived into thc age of the nuclear submarine, having hegun his first sea-going voyage under sail. That was the band of progress represented technologically in the lifetime of one serving naval officer. What would he have said ~l1ad h~ betn told that in my lieftime-and I am not even all that near the end of it, either-I should see men on the moon; or computer technology carried to the pitch that it has reached; or that there would be such’ an outbreak of wisdom foliowing Einstein and men like Schrodinger, Heisenberg and others; or the astonishing ascent of knowledge into the atomic world?
. This. has all happened in the lifetime of many of us, and yet we sit here, some of us, and say that marvels which have been
.
postulated by some, and which indeed are less in magnitude than most of those would have been to my uncle, are impossible. We are not all saying that- perhaps nobody is saying that-but thc argument is quite untenable. I have’ no wish to express any view on what a UFO may be. What I wish to say is that there is no knowing what it is not. It may be a product of some kind of sign language, as the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, men- tioned.’ It may "be mechanical. It may
Flying Objects 1306
be purely terrestrial. I doubt jf it is ange1s. . But I believe that, for the cJearing ’..~p of my~tery. for the rcmov<’.l of doubt, for even ti1C eJimiI~ating of some of the dar,zcrs \\ !lich may exist and to which the r gr;t reverend Pr;Iate referred, some kind of an open inquiry ought to be set up. I am rather inclined to agi’ce with the noble Lord-I think that it ~vas the noble Lord, Lord KiD8S Norton--who said that probably it should not be. an intra- governmental inquiry. I think it should be somcting rather more open than that, but it ought to t<J.ke place. If a group is set up within this House, as suggested by the noble Earl himself,. t}13t would be excellent. I should myetf be entirely in favour of it. In any case, let us get this matter cleared up and into the open, and by all means let us take it seriously, bccau~e this is a serious subject. Far too mlmy people are taking it st:riously for it not to be a $erious subject.
Finally, I wish to voice my most sincere congratulations to . my noble friend who made his maiden speech this afternoon. It is very impertinent of me to congratulte him upon it, but I should like to say how much I enjoyed it. I have no.t yet said anything complimentary about the noble Earl who initiated the debate. I have left this to the end on purpose because I’ think it may not be entirely realised wh t a service he has done. This is the first. such debate t.hat has occurred in any societ)’such as this par- ticular one; and this society, by which I mean this noble House of Parliament, is probably the only legislative assembly in the world in which it could happen. I hope that it will have repercussions which will spread far beyond this Chamber. What the outcome will be I do not know, but, in initiating the ripples which I hope will spread all over the surface of the mill-pond, the noble Earl has done a most valuable service.
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10.10 p.m. Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords,’ I
should like to join with thc noble Earl, Lord Cork and Orrery, in saying how grateful we are to the noble Earl. Lord Clancarty, for initiating tills debate on UFOs. Of course, the subject has been of considerable interest in this country, and I hope our discussions, which, as the
I noble Earl rightly said, have been the first thitt we haTe had- in your Lordships’
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,.1307 C/nidmtified’. [Lord Strabolgi.] House, wil! help to increase public under- standing. But before r reply in detail to the debatc ---and 1 think it has been a - most ii1t":!\ sti<1~ one-oj shou!d like tl) join \\ ith my n blc friend Lord Davies of Leek in congratulating the noble Viscount. Lord Oxfuird, on his maiden speech. We were verv glad to hear t ’om him. if I may say s , ~nd I hope we shall hear from him again on many other occasions. I shall be referring to some of the detail of his sp.~ech later, but at this stage I should like to offer him mv warmest congratulations. - There are undoubtedly many strange phenomena in the skies, and it can be readily accepted that most UFO reports are made by calm and responsible people. Ho\\-ever, there are genera!1y straight- forward explanations to aCCOunt for the phenomena, as r think was said by t11c noble Lord. Lord Tref..::;arne, speaking for the OpPOsition-and r JJlust say that I welcomed his constflJ<:ti,-c speech. There is nothing to convince the’ Government that there~ bs ever been a single visit by an alien space craft, let alone the numbers of visits which the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, claims are ncreasing all the time. As has been said leday, we live in a huge universe. I find as awe-inspiring as Pascal did the contemplation of infinite space. There are some lOO,OGO million. stars in our galaxy alone, which it would take 100,000 years to cross at the speed of light. Bevond OUr G\vn galaxy, the dista ces be orne even mon~~ daunting. The light year, as your Lorcf.ships know, is about 6 million million miles. The Andromeda galaxy is over 2 miJIion light years away. and that is if1 our own local group of galaxies! There arc, of course. other groups as well.
The evidence suggests that there is no intelligent life on the other planets of Our Own solar System. as the noble Vis- count said. There are, of Course, different views about whether there might be life elsewhere in the universe, but certainly there is no serious positive evidence to sholl’ that there is. If there were an advanced civilisation elsewhere in the universe, as my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek supposed, with the technology to traverse these colossal distances, there are many questions to be amwered. What is the point of this alleged huge nU111b’~r of visits to Our planet, over three decades
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[CORDS] - Flyin.rr Ob;C,<fS 1308or more, to no apparent purpose? There seem to be internal inconsistencies in the idea. To put it simply, if these a1:eged alicns prefer to keep out of the way, the nlimbcr of report<.’d sighting:; would surely be only a tiny portion of the actual UFO movements, which would rlln into many millions. If they do not prefer to pass unnoticed, we could surely expect un- mistakeable appearances. Why have they never tried to commun1- cate with us? Whv has there been no evidence on radio of attempts at com- munication? And would not such a large number of movements be picked up by Our defence radar system? Why has not a sii1gle artefact been found? Assuming that each visit docs not repre- sent a journey from a dist::111t star, where are these alien space craft supposed to be hidi ng? Now that the idea of such bases on the moon or on another planet in our solar system is barely tenable, ufologists have had to claim that the aliens are based in the depth~ of the sea or in a great hole in the earth, or even that thev come from invisible universes ;wd othspace-time continua. Anyone who accepts the hypothesis of large numbers of alien visitations seems forced towards explana- tions that are ever more fantastic, and incapable of either proof or disproof.
As I have said, there really are man)’ remarkable things to see in the sky; and most UFO reportsrciate to actual phl’J1omena reponed hy sensible people. But, my Lords, let us consider the phenomena .themseIves--and the noble Lord, Lord Tretgarne, mentioned some of these. Huge quantities of space debris enter Our atmosphere, and arc often seen as meteors, and fireballs: bright planets and even the moon or stars have been reported as UFOs, in unusual atmospheric conditions, as the noble Lord, Lord Hewlett, said; there are tricks of light on cloud, and particular cloud structures; there is Aurora Borealis. St. Elmo’s Fire and bail lightning which was referred to by the ’wble Earl. Lord Halsbury, which has been known to drift along telephone or power lines. There are some 5,000 man-made objects in orbit, satellites and debris, Some of which can be seen by the naked cye, some through binoculars. About 600 such man-made objects fc-enter thc atmosphere every year, as the noble Lord, Lord Hewlett, reminded us. The quantity is far !css than natl! l space
111:.’,,"
’1309
d.?bris, but, In b.? astonbhi’ig
Last Aprd r~cci\’ed repo; re-enter ng ac Most reports of an ". . . oval thing" for a while then’
My Lords, Wi;’ not a UFO, bu and place as ~ Many repol
unusual cone One recent U f on local radi cannot prove we do know tJ on a low-flyin spot at the;" course as the lights.lJave b distant aircral [ have seen aircraft, short the sun after d aircraft. C meteorologicaI logical Office balloons every in diameter an be lit by the SI organisations. balloons, sonl loo-ical searchl ’" . beam Itself ca of light in th balloons and !
reported as lff car headlights and airborne d
All these interpreted by’ particularly .w briefly and It1 ditions. This natural explar tortions of lig commonplace as to be barely I am told that ~ the 1947 sighti the noble Ea mirage effect. Phenomena
sllspect. Ther< within the eye
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1ts be picked vstem? Whv ’been found? les not rcprc- 1t star, where Ipposed to be of such bases planet in Our Ie, ufologists ,c aliens arc sea or in a ’en that thev ’s and othc’r who accepts Jers of alien "ds explana_ ’Jtastic, and .disproof. i are mallY Ie sky; and to actual
ble people. !lsider the thc noble ,ned some Jace debris often seen !1t planets :1a ve been mospheric rd, Lord f light on tructures; no’s Fire :fen’ed to ’y, which elephone ne 5,000 fites and n bv the ~. About re-enter iC noble 1S. The ,/ space
"r’1309 [rHic/,?11f~fied [ 18 JANUAR Y J9 9 ] 1310debris. hut, my Lords. the phenomena can be aqonishing.
Last April the J-.lini,try of Det(,’ice [cedI/cd reports of a larg;; piece or dehris rc-entering ac ,S the Suuth of En ;dand. Most rcp rts were factual, but one ’spoke of an ". , . oval thing with a white cockpit which h’)vercd for a while then ~;hot off at great speed ". 1"1 y Lords, we ~annot proye that this was not a UFO. but it occurred 3.t the same time and place as known rc.entry of debris. Many reports relate to aircraft seen in unusual conditions at unusual anrrlcs. One recent UFO was confidently rcpo’ted on local radio. Again, my Lords, we cannot prove that it was not a UFO, but we do know that an RAF Vulcan bomber on a low-flying mission passed the same spot at the same time and on the same course as the reported UFO. Aircraft lights have led to UFO r0ports; as have distant aircraft with landing lights an- I have seen them mvseJf-fiares from aircraft, ~hort condens tion trails lit by the sun after dusk and light rellected from aircraft. Other phe~lOmena include Inf.:teorological balloons. The Meteoro- logical Oftce alone releases 50 such balloons evcry day, which expand to 40 ft. i in diameter and rise to J 00,000 ft. and can be lit by the sun after dark. rvtany other organisations. such as universities, use balloons, some much larger. Meteoro- logical searchlights shine n clouds: the beam itself cannot be se<:n; only a point of light in the sky. There are hot air balloons and kites: even birds have been reported as UFOs; fights on distant towers: car headlights on distant hiJIs; dust devils; and airborne debris carried by the wind.
All these phenomena can be mis- interpreted by the most sensible observers, particularly when seen unexpectedly and briefly and in unusual atmospheric con- ditions. This is what opponents of the natural explanations forget. Withdis- tortions of light, and mirages, the most commonplace things can be so changed as to be barely recognisable. For instance. I am told tIlat the US Air Force attributed the 1947 sighting by Arnold described by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, to a mirage effect
Pl1enomena seen through glass are suspect. There arc phenomena generated within the eyeball and there are optical
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Flying Objects
illusions to which the noble Earl Lord Halsbury referred. One scientist, whose task inc:fu(;cs watchinr.: satellites. describes how, when observing stars near moving douds. he finds it di/lcult to escape the illusion that the stars arc Hying past stationary clouds. The nobi-.: Earl, Lord Halsbury, referred to the green flash. I used to ~ee it myself in Alexandria when on leave, It was one of our evening pastimes to sit on the promenade and \V’atch it go down over tlw sea.
My Lords, in 1968, the United States Air Force commissioned the University of Colomdl) to carry out an independent study into UFO phenomena. Their report, which was published in 1969, was vcry substantial and detailed and it covcr;~d some 50 examples of such phenomena, bllt added that it was impos- sible and potentially misleading to try to tabulate all of the possible causes of UFO perception: there are simply too many. The report’s main <:onclusion was, and I quote: .. Nothing ha’i come from the study of UFOs ill the past 21 ye<:rs th~,t has added to scientil’ic knowledge ".
The findings or this report were endorsl~d by a panel of tbe National Academy of Sciences. There reallv are tens of thousands of
strange things-to be seen. It is the custom to call ~;uch phenomena" UFOs ", and to transpose this easily into "alien space craft ". Often the app<:arance is too fleeting and the description too imprecise for a particuiar cause to be attributed. What we can say is that there is a great variety of plain explanations. There is no need, I suggest, for the far-fetched hypothesis of alien space craft.
To genuine sightings we must, however, add hallucinations; the excited tales of the gullible; and the embellishments of the born rom~ntic. There ’arc also in- dications that ufologists accept reports of UFOs somewhat uncritieallv. The . noble E rI,. Lord Clancartv, refirred to I . , a papyrus found among the papers of a Professor TulJi recording Hying saucers during the reign of Thutmose HI. The Colarado Report, which I mentioned ear- lier, inquired info this story. The alleged papyrus could not be traced. but internal eyiclence in the transl .tion suggested a fake; inquiries with the Vatican~K,luseum
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1311.. Unidentified
(Lord Strabolgi. J also suggested that Tuili, an amateur Egyptologist, had been taken in by a fake. There is a category of UFO cases which are difficulr to explain because the description is too vague or the evidence too remote, coupled perhaps with a c~incidence of different phenomena and with exceptional conditions. If one accepts that there are aatual explanations that could account for most sightings, it is an enormous and irrational jump to cl im that the residue of difficult cases constitute !ili.en. space craft when there is no positive eVIdence that they do constitute alien Space craft. I. should mention the famous UFO reported over the United Kingdom in December 1978, on New Year’s Eve in fact. This was the one probably seen by the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, to which he referred. The phenomenon was prob- ably the re-entry of a launcher associated with the Russian space satellite COSMOS 1068, launched on 26th December. Of over 100 reports reaching the Ministry of Defence, nearly all were factual and consistent with the re-entry of satellite debris. .
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The recent sightings in New Zealand referred to by the noble Lord Lord Kings Norton, attracted. Wo~[dwide publicity, and we understand that lhe New Zealand Government mav make an announcement when the facts "have been assembled and appraised. Preliminary advice from our High Commission in New Zealand shows c nfident expectation that the sightings wiil prove to be due to natural phenomena, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, implied. My Lords, the noble Earl who initiated
. this. debate referred to the attitude of other Governments to UFOs. It is not for me to speak in this House for other Governments. I have however already !llademention of the United States study In 1968 and I understand that nothing has happened since that time to cause the Unitcd States a thorities to. change their views or to warrant further official investigations of UFOs. The noble Earl also referred to an interview which the then French Minister of Defence, M. Robert Galley gave in 1974 on the subject of UFOs.. The noble
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[LORDS J Flying Objects 1312 Earl suggested that M. GaJIey had said that UFOs were real but that he the Minister, did not know where they ~ame from. I have read the transcript of M. I GalJey’s broadcast and l also took the !rouble to check it in the original French. fhe essence of what the Minister said was that the phenomena were genuine and were reported by rcsponsible people, but that there were aspects that were difficult to explain.
. Nowhere did the Minister say that UFOs were real in the sense that they represent alien spacecraft, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord RankeiUour.
. The noble Earl,. Lord Kimberley, also said that these had been seen by astronauts. These reports by astronauts were examined in the Colorado Study. The atronauts w~re required, of course, to report any- thmg unusual perceived on their missions’ and indeed many strange phenomena wer~ noted. All the phenomena except three were explained. There was nothing at all to suggest that the unexplained sightings were alien spacecraft, and the limited visibility from the small and smeared windows of a spacecraft did not make visual observation easy.
It has been suggested in this debate that our Government are involved in an alleged conspiracy of silence. I can assure your Lordships that the Govern- ment are not engaged in any such Con- spiracy. In view of what the noble Lord Lord Gainford, said, I must empha$is~ that the Ministry of Defence examines any UFO reports recei ved to establish ~vhether they reveal anything of defence mterest, but nothing in the reports examined has ever given cause to believe that they represent alien spacecraft. The~e is nothing to have a conspiracy of stlence about. What is more, a visitor from outer space would be one of the great events in history. It would certainly be an event of stupendous importance but I hesitate to say the greatest event of all in. the presence of myoId friend the right. reverend prelate the Bishop of Norwich, whose moving speech we listened to with much interest. .As th~ I~oble Earl, Lord Halsbury, saId, sCientists are rightly inquisitive
people. If there was anything in the stories of UFOs, we would expect the scientific community as a whole to be devoting much offort to studying or to making contact with the supposed aliens;
131l~ ,
but the ide; by this and I suggest, tc Then the
implied the cover-up. securitv bar ask to’ see files they a remain con mundane contain vol people, ar identity of that the fi1 the rules lActs, pass present pre have claps( eular corre the Mini:.t 1962. The ne
Illentioned govern men United Nc of Grenad; and propo’ decision \, Assembly states" tc national Secretary-1 Secretary-~ mit the C relevant n Peaceful 1 not an in sense that is seeking Grenada, countries, internatio
Lord 1< the word
Lord S note of w it has beE that Her set up a 5t the noble nobl "[01 ftom the Parties, d c~rtainly . not COi1S: t’ r the e such a st
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’" " ~ .1313 Unic!ct;!ij ’d r 18 JANUARY 19 9] nyingObjccts 13;’4 but. tht~ idcll of a conspiracv of ~ik[)c-c I rt:peat tint i ’18 gr,itcfui to the flobk by this a:;,-I other Go\CrrlllIc;lts beion!~s, Earl, Lo:’d "c:-Lar:carty, for ;"+in’:-’ n;~: ~;.>U,~<;’ :;:~J to :1 \vorId of .iHTncs Bond. suby:c( or (11"U:;, and 1 CiiT; C~j’"71c;d.--("1’! ~
_ .., t’ q, ~J ......., L ) grateful to him for inkrmin’~ m~ in Jdvancc of tn!:: points whish he !)roposed
I ~o make to your. Lordships. Hmvevcr, Horn all 1 hayc saId, I am Sure that Y01J!’ I LordshIps wIll agree that there is no reason for my right honourable friend I the Secretary of State for Defence tQ make
i a broa: a~t interview about UFOs, as the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, suggested. As for teIJing the public the truti~ about UFOs, the truth is simple. There really are many strange. phe~omena in the sky, and these are invarIably reported bv rational people. But there is a widrange of natural explanations to account for such phenomena. There is nothine to sugg:;st to Her l\fajesty’s Govcrnmer:i that such phenomena are alien space craft.
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~~1. Then the nobJe Earl, Ij,rd KimberL-v’ impJi;;d that there was some kind f cover-up. There is no cover-un and no security ban: It is true that wh n peopie ask to see the Ministry of Defence UFO files they are toid th t thc papers must remain confidential, but there is a vcr\’ mundDnc reasor: for t at. The file’s contain voluminous correspondence from people, and we cannot divulge the identity of the correspondents. It follows that th f res must remain dosed under the rules laid down in the Public Record Acts, passed by Parliament, which at present preclude disclosure until 30 years have elapsed since the date of the parti- cular correspondence. The earliest reports the Ministry of Defence hold are dated 1962. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty,
mentioned the possibility of an intra- governmental study of UFOs. At the United Nations recently, representatives of Grenada made statements about UFOs and proposals for a study. A compromise decision ’.lias taken, wherein the GeDeral Assembly invited "interested member states" to co-ordinate research "on a national level" and to inform the Secretary-General of their findings. The Secretary-General \-vas requested to trans- mit the Grenadan statements and other rc1evant reports to the Committee on the Peaceful. Uses of Outer Space, This is not an mtcr-governmental study, in the ~ense t~at the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, IS seekmg, but he may be content that Grenada, and perhaps some other countries, may be reporting in an international forum.
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Lord KINGS NORTON: My Lords, the word was" intra ", not" inter ".
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I take note of what the noble Lord said. Then it has been suggested, too. in this debate that Her Majesty’s Gov~rnment should set up a study group. I am glad to say that the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, both speaking fro~ the front Benches for the Opposition Partl~s, dId not support this proposal, and cyrtatnly Her Majesty’s Government do ppt cOl1sider that there is, any justification for the expenditure of public. money’ on such a study. ’ .
Viscount BARRINGTON: My Lords, ~ay I ask a question? I did rise to ask It when the no~Je Lord, Lord Strabolgi, rose. I was gomg to ask it of the noble Ear!, Lord Halsbury, but I think it would be more courteous to ask it of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. The subject of this debate is ," or:iects", and in the expert speech-.wJth almost aU of which I agreed -of. the noblc Earl, Lord Halsbury, he mentIOned that, scientists, as scientists, are dealmg only wIth material objects. I have to be caret d here, as a non-scientist who minds his p’s and q’s, and who hardly knows a quasar from a rmlsar but is a black hole a material object? ’
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords I should not at all like to follow the n~ble Viscount down that avenue. I do not think that even scientists or astronomer~ know. what black ~ole.s ~re. .I may say that, III a way, I thmk It IS a PIty that the noble Viscount did not takep rt in the debate. "
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10.34 p.m. The Earl of CLAN CARTY: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord Lord Strabolgi, for his assurances and for the information which he has -given us. I am sorry that we are not to be able to listen to, or see, his riaht honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence giving a television interview about UFOs: Tll.ere are just one or two, very smalJ pOInts, before I end this debate. We
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1315 Written
[The Earl of Clancarty.J have talked about the umpteen light years that wnw of these planets and stars an.: away from us. But we are looking at it from our own standpoint, because we staned to t1y on!y in 1903, when the Wrirrht brothers took air. Now we hav
- got Concorde, so we consider our- selves - to be rather good. But we say that we cannot go right out into space because of ail this distance in light years. Let us suppose, however, as has been I suggested, that there are billions of I planets with civilisations thousands of I years. old. fs it not possible that they i could come here, after all that rime, almost instantaneously’! It is just a thought.
... ’.
A propos of that, 1 should l ke to bring to the attention of your Lordships a famous scicntist and astronomer, our own Sir Fred Hoyle. Som years ago he wrote a book called Of l\lell and Galacii’s. He wrote a passage in that book \vhich I was allowed to quote in one of mine. It read:.. You <!n:ail familiar with an ordinary telephone directory, if you \"at1t to speak to someone, you look up his num,be; an,~ you dial the appropriate code. My spe":UiatlOn _
,,,.... this is Sir Fred Hoyle speaking- ;, is that a simila situ<Hion exists and has existed I for billions Of}ears in the galaxy. My speculation is tl,at :<11 interchange of messages is going on on a I vast sc:l1c all the time and th,:! we arc as unaware I of it as a f~ygrn’y in :hc African for""!~
.s tmaware I of the radIO mess,tges that Hash at tne speed of fight round the earth. My guess is (hat there might be a million or more subscribers to the galactic directory. Our problem is to get our nam’: inlO that directory".
1 think that noble Lords wil1 agree that there is a man of vision. Nothing is impossible in this world or in this universe. It is just that the seemingly impossible takes a little tim.z to come about.
My Lords, we have had an interesting discussion this evcning. 1 should like to thank the ri !!ht re\’:’erend Prelate the Bishop o Nonvtch and aU noble Lords who have taken part in this debate for their wonderful contributions. I should also like to congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord OXfuird, upon his splendid maiden speech. May J also thank all other noble Lords for their rapt and
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(LORDS.] A/lJw.:ri 1316 ~ I riveted attention. r beg leave 10 with- ; draw The Motion for Papers.I’vIotion for Papers, by kave, withdrawn.
WRITTEN ANSWERS
"BRITISH NATIONAUTY LAW: DISCUSSION OF POSSIBLE CHANGES"
Lord A VEBURY asked Her J...fajesty’s Government:
Whether they wiJ] publish the com- ments which the Home Oflce has so far received on the Green Paper British Nationalty Law: DisclIssiol/ of Possible Changes (Cmnd. 67(5) which appeared in April 1977 and which invited com- ments from the pubEc and ti"om interested bodies" as part of the process of open government ".
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Boston of Faversham): So t r nearly 250 persons or organisatiotls have s(,’nt in comments on the Green Paper. Understandably there is a good deal of repetition and Her Majesty’s Government do not intend to publish aU of ihis material verbatim. tt is open to any of the authors of papers to publish them and some have done so at least in substance. Her Majesty’s Government will have in mind the possibility of publishing in due course a summary of all comments received.
DISABLED PERSONS; EMPLOYMENT QUOTA
DEFICIENCY
Lord V AIZEY asked Her Majesty’s Government:
What is the number and percentage of 1 rms failing to employ their quota of disabled persons for each year since 1960.
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am advi: Commiss is as foU,
Year 1960 1961 *1962 *1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 - 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 *In 19(
respect statT but than SOC a quota
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:, HOJ’"JE ,versham) : :J.uisations h~ Grecn i’ :\ good ,\ j ~;j(:sty’s JUblish all :.; open to ’0 publish ,:t k.iSt in "vernmen t ibiiity of lary of all
f’ . ~\1ajesty’s
~,rcen tage :!r quota ~ar since
1,~J7 WI;’:,’,’i [Ii-’ JANUARY ~97() J AIi;"’!’/" 1318
Lord W LLACE of COSLANY: I years 1962 and 1963 are therefore per- am advi~ed b\’ the Manpow:::r Services centages based on ti C Humber of firms Commission t]la t the [ ;,1 uirt’:d infonn;ttio: rt.:vie\;’ed in those y~a[s and not on all ie, ", fol;o\\’s ;___ nrms subject to quota,
Nlin:!.>er of/rtl1S Fig 1’1’(’ in with (J ijuota P (’\’ ’1LI
obligaioi/,l; /101 colwnll as cumplying lritlt \. oJJirilis
3 per cent. CjU(ita subject Year at anl/ual TCI’icI\’ to quota
1960 24,974 38.2 J961 25,340 38.6
~’1962 15,389 42.] *J963 14,899 41,1 1964 19,271 45.2 1965 3J,03g 46.8 1966 31,661 48,3 1967 34,176 52.3 1968 34,3 9 53,7 ]969 35.1O~ 55,5 1970 36}96 57,3 ]971 36,:,:~1 58.2 19’12 ~4,794 57’~ J 973 33,779 58,4 J974 33,]O 60,0 1975 31,340 60.9 ]976 31,065 6}.J 1977 3],763 62.9 ]978 30,446 63.2 *1n 1962 and] 963 a survey was made in
respect of all firms with more than 500 starf but only a selection of firms with less than 500 staff (but which nevertheless had a quota obligations). The figures for the
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DlS/dUvlA1\,tENT AND AR\IS CONTROL: UN RESOLUTIONS
Lord KENNET asked Her M<tjesty’s Government :
Whether they will publish in con- wnient form th initiatives takcn by Her Majesty’s Government, whether unilaterallv or in association with others, and the v~)tes th(;v cast. ( !1 disarmament and arms control h>solutions at last autumn’s General Assembly.
Lord GORONWY-R08ERTS: The Government’s initi~lti\es on resolutions on arms control and disarmament wiU bt describ l in detail i; the Report on the 33rd Session of the United Nations General Assembly, to be published as a White P~~pcr. A separate record will shortly be made available to non-govern- mental organisations with a special interest in disarmament and wiIi be placed in the Library of the House.
House adjourned at twenty- two minutes before eleven o’clock,
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objects, working closely with the French one.
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countries. She has extended and ex- I p nded in the best possible way our whole amhoach to aid, and I should like it made I ab~o \lelv clear that that is what we
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meant" I sho}Jld like to give the noble Lord
another uotation f;o111 his article. He sa~ that ;n this particular project the
G vernmen ’s case was based on "less ele~ated pol ica! motives". In answer to :this I ShOll like to give one quotation from a recent ar ide of my right honourable frirnd. It is thi .
". : . we an need t take into account human
rights, whether it I Cambodia or Uganda, Indonesia, Chile, or . olivia, Czecboslovakii’ or the’Soviet Union ".
I I am most gratf’f f for the support I
have received tonight ~om my two noble friends-indeed a powel{~l and impressive cOlpbination, and fron~~he noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in anothe powerful con- tribution. I think now that on the question of aid for Bolivia we must look to the fut’.1re. . \Ve shall no go back on OUl: decision about the tin mi. ing project. As I have said, our offer of as ’stance has been welcomed, and our comn ’tment to help when we can f nd the righ projects is a firm one. The Government’s ’easons for deciding against the mining ~"ojects are’ good ones. They are perfect I ’ well understood by the Bolivian Govern 1ent, anq we look forward to mutually satis- faciory relations over new projects.
WRITTEN ANSWERS
UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
The Earl of CLANCARTY asked
He,f Majes(y’s Government:
Whether they are aware that in . France, since 1st September 1977, a
! section for the ,;tudy of unidentified :flying objects has been set up in the
I National Centre for Space Studies in
I Toulouse, under the direction of i Monsieur Claude Poher, a distinguished
I scientist, and that this body is sponsored upon the French Ministry of Industry
, and Research; and whether there isa : similar scientific organisation under Government sponsorship in the United . Kingdom to study unidentif ed flying
\ J ._.,_._----------_...~-....-.. -..,.--- ~..-~- #’
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPART- MENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge): Her Majesty’s Government understand that a study group called the Groupe d’Etudes sur les Phenomenes Aerospatiales Non- Jdentifies (GEPAN) has been set up under thc French Ministry of Industry, Com- merce and Artisans at the National Centre for Space Studies in Toulouse. The group has no formal links with the United Kingdom, and we have no similar scientific, g Up to study unidentifted objects or phenomena.
\
VLEGAL AID REFUSALS
L rd CHITNIS asked Her Majesty’s Gov rnment:
’I hether they will list in the Official Rep rt the number of applications for legal~id which have been refused for each ear since 1970 and whether they will c ~SifY this information according to the following categories:
(a) \\ ’1ere the Supplementary Benefits Co lmission have determined the app ~~ant’s disposable income at an amo~nt greater than the limit;
(b) Whe~the Supplementary Benefits Com ission have determined the applic nt’s disposable capital at an am unt greater than the limit;
(c) where ,the proceedings to which the apptication related are not proceedil\gs for which legal aid may be given;
(d) where t ~e applicant has not shown the he has reasonable grounds for taking, defending, or being a part. to the proceedings;
(e) where it a pears unreasonable that the appli ant should receive legal aid in the particular circum- stances of the ca e.
~ !..
The LORD CHAN LLOR: The av"iiable information is se out below in twc tables. No infOrmati~’s available about category (c) and com’jned figures only are available for categori (a) and (b). In England and Wale~ comb ~led figures only are available for categories (d) and (e).eo __- __ _. .-. ". .....-,..--.,...~.. .-.-:-. .-.... . -.." - .. . -".’
! t f /
__ .~_~. .~ ~ r’_~_ _~.,...#......... ....
"
4&."1rous ~ [onIs
’.
UFOs
I am grateful to the Noble Earl, the Earl of Clancarty
for initiating this debate on UFOs. The subject has been
of considerable interest in this country, and I hope our
discussion will help to increase public understanding.
My Lords, there are undoubtedly many strange phenomena
in the skies, and it can be readily accepted that most UFO
reports are made by calm and respons ible people. Howeve,r,
there are generally straightforward explanations to account
for the phenomena. There is nothing to convince the
Government that there has ever been a single visit by an,,-
alien space craft, let alone the millions of visits
suggested by the Noble Earl.
My Lords, we live in a huge universe. At speeds
currently possible it would take at least three years to
reach Pluto at the edge of our solar system. Even if we
could one day achieve velocities approaching the speed of
light it would take over four years to reach the nearest ..~.
star. There are 100,000 mill’ion stars in our galaxy alone,.’"
’\’J11ich . it would take 100,000 years to cross at the speed of
., /".
/ light . . ..’ ~" :
e
lfous~’~ fonis2-
ligb.t. BeyoIld our OiX’Il galaxy the dis tances become even
more daunting: the Andromeda galaxy is over 2 million light
years away, and that Is in our own local group of galaxies.;
The evidence suggests that there is no intelligent\..
life on the other planets of our mm solar system. There
are different views about whether there might be life else-
vlhere in the universe, but certainly there is no serious
positive evidence to show that there is.
If there were an advanced civilisation elsewhere in
the universe, with the technology to traverse these colossal
distances, there are many questions to be answered. What~~-- . .... ---~. .-’
is the point of this alleged huge number of visits to our
planet over three decades or more, to no apparent purpose?
There seem to be internal inconsistencies in the idea. To
put it simply: if these alleged aliens prefer to keep out
of the way, the number of reported "sightings" would surely.
only be’ a tiny portion of the actual UFO movements, which
would run into many millions. If they do not prefer to pass.~.. unnoticed, ",e could surely expect unmistakable appearances.
....
Now, my Lords, why have they never tried to communicate with
", ~ / us? . .. .-1~.~
e./
l+ouse’if fords
3. .
us? Why has there been no evidence on radio’l And no ----correlative evidence on radar for such a huge number of/’" -movements? \-,7hy has not a single art.efact been found? ----
/ Why is there not a single convincing photograph, particularly’-for the many alleged landings?
Assuming that each visit does NOT represent a journey
from a distant star, where are these Halien space craft"
supposed to be hiding? Now that the idea of such bases
on the moon or on another planet in our solar system is
barely tenable, ufologists have had to claim that the
"aliens" are based in the depths of the sea, or in a great,...~..
hole in the earth, or even that they corne from invisible
universes and other space-time continua. Anyone who accepts
the hypothesis of large numbers of alien visitations seems. .
forced towards explanations that are ever more fantastic,
and incapable of either proof or disproof.
My.Lords, as I have said, there really are many
.remarkable things to see; and most UFO reports relate to.":-
actual phenomena reported by calm and responsible people.
But, my Lords, let. us consider the phenomena themselves:" .. . .
/ huge" -to:,
,
..
e.
r1x)ust,~ fords .q
a. huge quantities of space debris enter our
atmosphere, as meteors, meteorites, fireballs;
b. bright planet3 and even the moon or stars" . ,. have been reported as UFOs, in unusual atmospheric’-
conditions;
c. there are tricks of light on cloud, and
particular cloud structures;
d. there is St Elmo’s Fire, ball lighting, and
Aurora Borealis;
e. there are some 5,000 man-made objects in orbit;
satellites and debris, some of which’ can be seen.~--~
by the naked eye, some through binoculars. About
600 such man-made objects re-enter the atmosphere
every year; the quantity is far less than natural
.."space debris, but, my Lords, the phenomena can be
astonishing. Last April the Ministry of Defence
received reports of a large piece of debris re-. entering across the South of England: most reports
.:.
were factual, but one spoke of an "oval thing with
awllite cockpit which hovered for a while then shot
/ off . . ."... ..’".’
.
e.,-
- "
liuse--<f[orrls ,
.5.off at great ltf My Lorcls,we cannot provespee.c .that this was not a UFO, but it occllrred at the
same time and place as known re--entry of debris;
, ’f. many reports relate to aircraft seen in,.
unusual conditions at unusual- angles. One recent
"UFO" was confidently reported on local radio. i ,
Again, my Lords, we cannot prove that it was not a
"UFO", but we do know that an RAE<’ Vulcan bomber ona low flying mission passed the same spot at the
same time and on the same course as the reported
UFO;.~ ~:=~--..’/’
g. aircraft lights have led to UFO reports; and
. distant aircraft with landing lights on; flares
from aircraft, short condensation trails lit by
the sun after dusk, light reflected from aircraft;
h. other phenomena include meteorological
balloons. The Meteorological Office alone releases, 50 such balloons every day, which expand to 40 feet ..in diameter and rise to 100,000 feet and can be
lit by the Slln after dark. Many other organisations
/ use ...~ - if: "!. . ’~-t~. .
--rwus "<j fords
6.-
use balloons, some much larger;
i. meteorological searchlights shine on clouds:,
I
the beam itself cannot be seen; only a point of/’
light in the sky;
j. there are hot air balloons and kites; even
birds have been reported as UFOs; lights on
distant towers; car headlights on distant hills;
dust devils; and airborne debris carried by the
wind;
k. there are some . very effective aerial hoaxes
which have been perpetrated by children ~ which’."
I will not describe for fear of precipitating a
new rash of UFOs.
My Lords, all these phenomena can be misinterpreted
by the most sensible observers, particularly when seen
unexpe tedly and briefly and in unusual atmospheric
conditions. This is what opponents of the natural explanations
forget. With distortions of light, and mirages, the most
commonplace things can be so changed as to be barely
recognisable. Phenomena seen through glass are suspect.
; ".. ":/.-~. .<
/ There . . .
~ .
. "
’twvse:’ ~ font5 7"
There are phen01Tlena generated within the eyeball. And
there are optical illusions: one scientist whose task
"includes watching satellites describes hows when observing
stars near moving clouds, he finds it difficult to escape
the illusion that the stars are flying past stationary
clouds.
A very substantial American study by the University
of Colorado in 1968 reported some 50 examples of such
phenomena, but added that it was "impossible and potentially
misleading to try to tabulate all of the possible causes of
UFO perception: there are simply too many.".’
My Lords, there really are tens of thousands of
strange things to be seen. It is the custom to call such
phenomena "UFOs", and to transpose this easily into "alien
space craft". Often the appearance is too fleeting and
the description too imprecise for a particular cause to
be attributed. What we can say is that there is a great
variety of plain explanations. There is no need for the ".",
far-fetched hypothesis of alien space craft.
/ To .... . "
’
.
e.lfouse.- ~c fords
8.-
To these genuine sightings we must add hallu-
cinations; thEJ excited tales of the gullible; and the J
embellishments! of the born story~tel1er. There are even,
I fear, occasional dO’itmright lies.
There are also indications that ufologists accept
reports of UFOs uncritically. The Noble Earl, the
Earl of Clancarty referred to a papyrus found among the
papers of a Professor Tulli recording flying saucers
during the reign of Thutmose III. The Colorado Report,
which I mentioned earlier, enquired into the Noble Earl’s
account of this story. The alleged papyrus could not be
traced, but internal evidence in the tra?slation suggested
a fake; enquiries with the Vatican Museum also suggested
that Tulli, an amateur Egyptologist, had been taken in
by a fake.
There is a category of UFO cases difficult to
explain, because the description is too vague or the
evidence too remote, coupled perhaps with a coincidence
of different phenomena and with exceptional conditions.
If one accepts that there are natural explanations that
. ". -.,;’1.
/ could .-. G. .
I I
L
e
"~;.. . ..
i..
r-1:-1:OlLse~ ?i’[ords 9..
could account for most sightings, it is an enormous
and irrational jump to claim that the residue of difficult
/’’cases constitute alien space craft - when there is no
positive evidence that they do ~onstitute alien space
craft.
6"-’. My Lords, III il
should mention the famous HUFO" reported !!over the United Kingdom on the night of 31st December
1978. The phenomenon was probably the re-entry of a
---~-l-auncher associated with the Russian space satelliteCOSMOS 1068 launched on 26th December. Of over 100 reports
reachit!g the Ministry of Defence, nearly all were factual
and consistent \vith the re.-entry of satellite debris.
The recent sightings in New Zealand attracted
worldwide publicity, and we understand that the
New Zealand Government may make an announcement \’Jhen the
facts have been assembled and appraised. Preliminary "
advice from our High Commission in New Zealand shows
confident expectation that the sightings will prove to be
due to natural phenomena.
/ Hy Lords, ...,<
. or;
<~ ’<
,
e’,,:
. 1-rouse’:’ if fords,
16
My Lords, it is not for me to speak in this Hou.8 e
for other Governments. I would, however say to your,
Lordships that in 1968 the United States. Air Force
commissioned the University of Colorado to carry out
an independent study into the UFO phenomena. The very
substantial and detailed report was published in 1969.
I . 1. d I "1 . h .
ts ma1n cone US10n was, an quote, pot11ng as come
from the study of UFOs in the past 21 years that has
added to scientific knowledgeil. The findings were
endorsed by a Panel of the National Academy of Sciences.
I understand that nothing has happened since 1969 to
cause the US authorities to change their views r to
\\Tarrant further official inves tigation of UFOs. It may
be, as the Noble Earl, the Earl of Clancarty has said,
that President Carter once reported a "sighting": but
My Lords, as I have stressed there is a world of
difference between reports of phenomena and the existence"
of alien space craft. .,:"",.
My Lords, the Noble Earl, in h’is introductory
speech, suggested that the French Ninister of Defence in
.1974 said ’that UFOs"vere real but that he did not know"".
.. / where ...
e,-.-- ’C(’ f ttoUSe--~r J_orn.s
11,
where they came from. I have read the transcript of
Monsieur Galley! s broadcast. My Lords, the essence of
what l’lonsieu:r. Galley said vJaS that the phenomena were genuine
and were reported by responsible people; and t.hat there. "
were aspects which were difficult t.O explain. Nowhere did
he say that ItUFOs were reallt in the sense that they repre-
sent alien space craft.
My Lordsf it has been suggested that our own
Government is involved in an alleged conspiracy of silence.
I can assure your Lordships that the Government is not
engaged in any such conspiracy. The Ministry of Defence
examin~s any UFO reports received to establish whetherthey reveal ar~thing of defence interest, but nothing inthe reports examined has ever given cause to believe
that they represent alien space craft. My Lords, there
is nothing to have a conspiracy of silence about. ’Vlhat
is more, a visitor from Outer Space would be one of the
great events in history. My Lords, scientists are an
inquisitive lot. If there was anything in the stories .:,. ....~
of UFOs we would expect many serious. scientists to be
devoting much effort to studying or making contact wit.hthes sur:posed aliens, but the scientific community seemb
-";
i’ as . . .
.rh:mse~~?f fords
12
as unimpressed as the Government. The idea of a conspiracy
of silence belongs to the world of James Bond.
.<My Lords, at the United Nations recently mpmbers
of the Special Political Committee~ following speeches
about UFOs by the re~resentatives of Grenada~ agreed on 11 "
_Bconsensus resolutidn that provides, at Grenadan expense,
for a study group to monitor information on UFOs
supplied by any interested United Nations’ member state
and for the grn p to present its findings to the-Outer..... ’’’"
Space Committee some time in 1979. The Noble Earl, the
Earl of Clancarty may, therefore, be satisfied that
Grenada and such other countries who choose will be making.
a report to an international fmrum. However, Her Majesty’s
Government has no plans either to provide information".’
.about UFOs or to involve itself in any other way with the
study group.
I repeat that I am grateful to the Noble Earl, the
Earl of Clancarty for raising the subject; and I am
particularly grateful to him for informing me in advance
of th.e points which he proposed to make to your Lordships., ..
’~; .’
/ However fI 0 .. .
. .
e,;
lWHS:’ iffords
13
However, from all I have said, I hope that your Lordships
will agree that/there is no reason for my right honourable
’. friend the Secretary of State for Defence to make a
broadc.ast interview about UFOs. As for telling the public
the truth about UFOs, the truth, my Lords, is simple.
T~ere really are many strange phenomena in the sky, andthese are invariably reported by calm and sensible
people. But there is a wide range of perfectly sensible
----exrYlanations to account for such phenomena. My Lords,
there is nothing to suggest to Her Hajesty’s Government
that such phenomena are in any way connected wi th the
idea of alien space craft.
.’1"
-’"t...
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,e" 4. Let us first consider" the phenomena." There have always
been strange things to see in the sky, and strange explanations
have been given. Since World War II we have seen development
of powerful rockets, and voyages to the Moon and planets. We "
have also seen the development of science fiction, where space
ships can be switched to ’inter-stellar drive’ and our hero canC"’,~e:eme the 2M light years to Andromeda Galaxy in a flash. We have
also seen the development of ufology and the UFO industry)which
accepts the delightful fantasies of science fiction as proven fact
and interpret~the phenomena in our skies as~ien space craft. Most of the phenomena are seen unexpectedly and very briefly, and are go~ before th eye has focussed. The words ’UFO’ and ’space craft’ have been firmly implanted and too readily spring to mind. 6. But what are the real catwes of the phenomen~? a. Some have always occurred: tricks of light on cloud; cornets)
meteors or showers of meteors; meteorites, bright planets, or even the moon or stars in unusual atmospheric conditions.
Venus is popular: there are recorded cases of pilots
reporting Venus as an ’unidentified flying object following
them t .
6. Meteorological balloons. The Met Office alone release 50
a day) which exp d to 40 foot diameter and rise to 100,000
feet and can be lit by the sun well after dark. Many other
organjsations use balloons, some are much larger, and there
are recorded cases of balloons being reported as UFOs by airline pilots.
- 2 -
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C, Meteorological searchlights shine on clouds: you cannot
see the beam, only a light apparently dancing in the
sky.
d~ A surprising number of reports relate to aircraft seen in
unusual conditions at unusual angles, some very high, some
at low level. One recent ’UFO’ was confidently reported on local radio: we cannot prove that it was not << ’UFO’, but we do know that an RAF Vulcan bomber on ~ low flying mission
passed the same spot at the same time and on the same course
as the reported UFO.
..e. And satelli tea: ther3 are some 5000 listed objects in orbit, satellites and space debris. More are added each ~eart and about 600 re-enter the atmosphere every year. Early this
year MOD received many reports of a large peice of debris , 1.e-tnr&IV\..~ across the South of England: most reports
were factual, but one spoke of an ’oval shaped thing with a
white cockpit which hovered for a while than shot off at
great speed’. We cannot prove it wasn’t a UFO, but it occur~ed at the same time and place as some known re-entry of space debris.
7. And of course there are .optical illusions. . Any phenomena seen through glass are particularly suspect. 8. There are also genuine hallucinations, sometimes bn people
under stress; _the exo! ted tales of the gullible; the embellishments of the born story teller. Also, I fear, downright lies. There
are also hoaxes: there are some very effective aerial hoaxes which
have been perpetrated by children - which I will not describe10r
fear of precipitating a new rash of UFO reports.
- 3 -
.9. In sum, we cannot prove that all or even most of these so- called eightings were not UFOs. But we can say that there is a great variety of phenomena in the skies for which there are
perfectly ordinary explanations. We have no reason to believe that the so-called UFOs are attributed to anything but these samecauses.
10. But what of these famous arrivals of UFOs, claimed to be fully documented and authentjcated by many witnesses. On scrutiny they tend to be elusive. I will select one, which Lord Clancarty has described in. his book MYsterious Visitors as ’one of the most remarkable and unexplained mysteries of modern times’. He claims that during the Galli~o~ campaign _.~, ,
in 1915, an entire British regiment, the First Fourth Norfolks,....O~~.;::,...~was advancing tow&rds Hill 60: a cloud descended and picked up the regi~ent and it was never heard of again ....... (checking with Army Historical Branch)
11. As I have indicated;there is n0 ~riticism of those who accurately report phenomena. The criticism is of oyer-readiness to call them -!UFOs’, and to transpose that into ’alien space craft’. The reports are passed without critical scrutiny to 1~rY\ the ufologists; who ad~ without critical scrutiny, to their huge files of ’reported sightings and landings’.
.,. 4 -
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12. I am sure no-one will deny that - at the least - there are
’possible rational explanations for the phenomena. Let us now
look at the other side of the coin, the range of explanations
offered by Lord Clancarty and other ufologists - it is a wide
and confusing range, for there are as many different explanations
as there are ufologists.
13. Lord Clancarty has been reported as claiming there have been
some 80,000 sightings. Other ufologists would put the figure even
higher. Now, there is a strange thing about these huge numbers.
To put it in simple terms: either these ’space people’ prefer to
keep out of the way, or they don’t. If they prefer to keep out
of the way, we must assume that the number of ’sightings’ is a tiny
proportion of the actual ~FO ’sorties’, which must run into millions. If they don’t one would expect e;c:me unmistakable
appearances.
14. But let us look at their strange track record: ~. Not a single artefact has been produced - not a single
extra-terrestial ch,’p has dropped an extra-terrestial
spanner, no bent pieces, no prange from perhaps millions
of sorties, no nothing. Lord Clancarty has an answer:
the CIA has hidden them all.
h. There is no correlative evidence on radar of this huge number of movements.
c . There has been no radio contact (far easier than space travel) and no evidence on radioo
d. There have been no convincing photographs, in these daYfJ_ when so many people carry cameras.
- 5
e.
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~..J. There has been no approach to Governments, and no direct
knowledge of UFOs by Governments. Lord Clancarty has an
answer: there is a great inter-Governmental conspiracy of
silence, initiated by the CIA.
.,15. The idea of the inter-Governmental eonspiracy of silence
is at once the most astonishing and the most flattering claim
of all. On so few things can the Governmentsof the world agree
unaminously, but.they have all supposedly agreed to cOliceal the
evidence of UFOs from their peoples. Let me assure this House_
that Her Majesty’s Government has never been approached by
people from outer space.
16. There is no internal consistency about the idea of this huge
number of sightings. If t~ey have come from another solar system, what is the point of this huge number of visits to our planet,
to no apparent ~urpose? At best it s~ems wasteful. This was
once explained by the claim that alibns had advance bases the
other side of the moon. When that became untenable the bases
were assumed to be on another planet in our solar system. As
that has become untenable ever more fantastic explanations are
advanced. In a recent TV broadcast Lord Clancarty claimed that~the UFOs are based in a great hole in the earth. Elsewhere he
has claimed that they have bases in remote parts of South Amej:ica,
or in the depths of the oceans. Because1hese physical places
have become un.tenable he has claimed that (I quote): ’UFOs are
paranormal, that is from invisible universes’. They come from
’other space-time continua’. Another ufologist talks of ’space
mind/full min0/}~na!. Indeed the explanations geb more and more
fantastic, and more and more incapable of either proof or dis-
proof.
- 6 -
"’IIIIIIII
e17. The most telling argument of all is that the scientific
community is unmoved by the claims of ufology. A visitor from
outer space - or from another space time continua, or the .
depths of the sea, or anYVlhere else they are supposed to be one
hiding - would bel?f the greatest events in human history,
and the greatest scientific event. You would expect serious
and sensible scientists to be devoting much time and effort
to II.aking contact with these supposed space people. The
scientific community is as unimpressed as the Government~
If the ufologists claim that the Government has gagged the
scientifi community, it would be as amazing as the alleged
conspiracy of silence between Governments.
1 . One could go on inciefini tely trying to chase ’~he elusive -indeed devious arguments of the ufologists. Yes, there has
been an increase in the number of ’sightings’ reported to the
Government: the biggest upsurges occurred when the BBC put out
a programme on UFOs, and when the Daily Express launched a
campaign in connection with the film premiere of ’Close Encounters
of the Third Kind’. No, the Government is not in the least con-cerned by the increases. LAs has been sai~ Grenada is financing a study into UFOs, and the United Nations has, in a
moment of casualness, given that ’ study a vague sort of
reoognition,and one or two other countries have offered to con- tribute reports. Her Y~jest-y’s Government, if it contributes at
, all, will contribute on the lines of my speech.
.19. There are tens of thousands of strange things to see in
~he sky. It has become fashionable to call these things ’UFOs’.There a!’e P’3rfectly sensible explanations for these sightin.gsoThe ufologist explanations are not sensible at all. In 1968u-
- 7 -
. e $ a comprehensive study on UFOs conducted for the uj Government
by the University of California concluded that ’nothing ’haa come from the study of UFOs in the past 21 years that has
added to scientific knowledge’. Ufologists may, if they wish, continue to believe that Governments and scientists alike are
engaged in a massive cover-up. However, perhaps our debate
will help confirm in some ~other peoples minds ufo logy may bepleasant fantasy but has nothing to do with truth.
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4.. VIe believe i i; ’t’lOu.l be ’l.n.profi table to indulge. in too mu.ch flippenlcy, and in-’ijend to propo e that ’l:he Goverllillent injects a dose of massive commonsense into the debate on UFOs.. The general line \’16 have in mind is:
i
.
f.
g.
h.
ao ’ve do not discount thE; po~si bili ty. of intelligent life / h v elsewhere amobg t.e huge nurober of other worlds and other galaxies.
The technical difficulties of space travel are stunning, with the nearest star 4 light years away, but it would / be ~~wise to say ’impossible evert. ~ ..H~
b.
c. The phenomena lump dtogether as UFOs’ are often rap rted by responsible 2.nd intelligent people. \/d. ~~t there is a huge gap between those three statements and the assumption that ’UFO renorts’ constitute serious evidence that extra-terrestial beings are reconnoitring this planet (Clancarty reports 80,00 verified sightings, the introduction to the book’of ’Close Encounters’ refers to’millions!).
’/ v’
e. T~e phenomena re~o~ted often have cOID~on-s~nse ,e~I’lanations (0g7la~rcraft or met balloons ~n unusual light, or space debris): it is always difficult to :tnterpret accurately unu.sual ever..ts seen. fleetingly: and the constant publicity about UFOs leads people to interpret the phenomena as extra-terrestial spacecraft and to embellish their reports unconsciously . Extensive US studies indicate no evidence of extra- terrestialvisits. No studies’ have been considered necessary in UK, but perusal of repprts received gives us nO,cause to suspect extra-terr~stial activity. Tfthere \.,as s;~rious scientific evidence of extra--! :t;errestial visits "18 \-!Culd expect the ’scientif ci ,.
world to be agog and com~ tted; but the scientific ~’ world seems at ’best uni~pressed, more likely heav~ly cynica:+,,’
/’
J
There is no inteJ:’ual consistency about the idea of there having been 80,000 or perhaps milliong o~ genuine sightings. We would expect some accidents or ~rtefacts (Clancarty has suggested that the CIA has collected and hidden them all): or SODe approach to or direct evidence held by Governments (Clancarty has suggested there i8 a conspiracy of silence beti’Teen Governrr:ents u..1’itil they know how to cope); or some overt political or cultural actiYity to show for 30 years of presuHl5.oly hi&h-technology rec01Ulaissance (Clan~artyls own UFO references go back to .
the Star of Bethlehem and earlier).\-
.... 2 ....
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. 1 . ria t ’1.dersta~d from the Press th8t Lord Clancarty 1sbeliever in UFOs. He iS’reported to have seen two and he has written
seven books on the subject having st~died the phenomena ,for 30 years. He has asserted that a former French}tinister of Defence admitted that
ID"’Os exist t ’that there are serious problems and that many landings h,s.:ve ’~aken place. 1fuen asked to comment on a report tha..t a UFO had follo Jed
a young housewife home Lor~Clancarty told the Evening News that the lights may have been those of a space craft sent to spy on us by an
un..1mmvn civ-il:i.sation from another planet. A lot of UFOst~’he said,
seem to disguis themselves in clouds. o "7 . ... r .../4- (/~...--r’ (:~’’’’-.’’’-t’?- ..:~-d:>J.R’" ~,...--- ----..
The American Attitude to UFOs ~ R""""’<I" ""1"._ OIt.--....~....II~ . .~-- -2. There haG been no British scientific enquiry into the possible
xistence "of UFOs. However, th }~nistry of Defence has kept in touch’Wi th the Uni tad S""ates Air Force who mad"e a systematic attempt to record
and investigate UFO sightings between 1947 and 1969. During tr.~s period the USAF received "12,618 reports~ of these 701 w’ere not explained~ 3. This USAF investigation kno’~ as Project Blue Book was followed by a study \’J"hich was originally suggested a member of a congressional
investigat on in the Armed Forces Committee and which was assigned by~
the Air Force Office of Scientific Research to th& Universit~ of Colorad It was led by Dr Edward V Coudon, Professor of Physics and formerly
Director of the National Bureau of Standard.s. The main findings of this
study, published in 1969 were that:-a. Abou.t 90% of all UFO reports prove to be plausibJ.y !’elated t’\e...ttt.n.v-
to ~~~~~~ phenomena.be> Little if fmythi:ng had come to li ht from tbe 8tudy of UFOs
in the pa~:t 21 years -that added’ to scientific knowledge"Co Further extensive study of D}i’O sightings 1"aS not juctifiod.
in the expectation that science would be advanced ther0bv~ . ,
..~ 1~ .’c _ ’~’.". "".>.’"_.__ ,_ _ .,n ....... .>."’"’.’~..’"-,..e _
b. No evidence had come to light in the study to indicate that
e UFO sightings might represent a. defenei ve Hizard..
The US Department o~ Defence should continue to handle UFO reports inoits normal surveillance operations without
,recourse to special ill1its such as Project Blue BooK.
4. These fL’I’ldings were endorsed by a P8:nel of tJ::le Hatior.al Academy
at’
of Sciences)which adv s~d that the Condon enquiry had been an adequate scientific study of UFO phenomena and .that the ’methodology and approach
were well chosen and in accordance with the accepted standards of scienti:
investigation. The Panel added: "We are unanaminous in the opinion that
this (the Co~don Report) has been a very creditable attempt to apply
objectively the relevant techniques of s~ience to the solution of t e. . .
UFO problem.. f1le"R port,;t:’~E:} ognises ..that.thereremainUFO sightings that
~~.~...P:2iefisilyexpl i~e;d.. The Report does suggest, ~howe17er, so many
reasonable’a~d possible directions in wl ch an explanatio~ may eventually
be found that there seems to be no reason to attribute them to an extra-
terrestial source without evidence that is much more convincing~. . ~’Th Report als shows hmofd.ifficult.itisto apply scientific metti;ods 1 :~ -the occasional transientsightings "TJ..th nJ: chance 9:fsu?c-ess~1 Whilst
further study of particular aspects of the topic (eg atmospheric
phenomena) may be useful, a study of UFOs in general is not a promising
way to expand scientific understanding of the phenomena. On the basis
ofpres~nt knowledge the least likely explanation of UFOs is the
hypothesis of extra terrestial visitations by intelligent beings~~’ 5. The USAF wound up their Project Blue Book investigation on 17
December 1969 on the strength of the Co~don Report, the advice of the
National Academy of Sciences, past UFO studies and their Orm experience
of investiga tioo. 1JFO. r3ports over t’,:o decades (0 Their concl’J.sions ere ...;Jthat no UFO reported, investigated’ or eyaluated by the Air ]’orce had eve:r
given any ind:i.cation of a threat to their national securit~l; th3.t + h^’vH:Jo "-0_’:"1,,.,’:- :....
had been no evidence sumitted or discovered by the Air Force that I
. .
tecbnolog:\.cal developments or principles beyond the ra.nge of pl"’e8’(.~11t dB~’
~. 2 ...
4IfieutifiC knowledge, and that there had been’ no evidence indicating that t ghtings categorised as "unidentified" were extra terrestial
vehicles.
6. The Co~on Report caused a good deal of ?ontroversy and, we believer.
was much criticised. In August 1976, however, the RAF Staff in
Washington were informed by the US Department of the Air Force that there
was no likelihood of renewed ~r Force involvement in this area. The
Department pointed to the considerable Air Force Commitment-ot resources
in t e past, t~e extreme pressure on Air F rce funds in 1976 and the fact . ~(.I.. Iq Mi n.D ~i/1(.un.u......{.v..J.. ’b..,:.h1 jrrt:.’;~ ~ (,.,,’4-rr."\,M,V thatL!urther investigation by the Air Force. The Department of the Air
Force added that a number of universities and professional scientif~ organisations such as the American Association for the Advancement of
Science had considered UFO phenomenao Private organisations had also
shown inter~st in aerial phe~omena.It was considered that such timely review of the situation by private groups insured that sound evidence WG : not be overlooked by the scientific community..
Ministry of Defence attitude --=-.c-. 1;:.. IlL ~ _. . 7. . The MOD policy takes its cue from th.e Americans. It is always
possible, of co~se, that the considerable corr~spondence addressed to .. MOD might contain some hint, not of’ UFOs, but of something with a hostile
terrestial origin which could have a bearing on national security. All
letters are therefore referred. to specialist authorities in MOD for any further investigation thought .to be necessary; ":16 do .not take the
enquiries further than that and we do not enter into detailed correspon n
with the public. The standard reply to Nembers of Parliament and the pub:
is that we have not the resources to conduct a scj.entific investj.gatioD.
.’ into the nat1.’T9 of UFOs and, although we invariably pass ~eports ofsightings to the staffs refJponsible for the air defences 1 ’Te do not: p’..lrs1).(enquiries to the point of pcaitive identification. We do not dicmise the
possibility that intelligent life could ~xist in outer spa0e but to dateno evider..ce has emerged to suggest that UFOH have extra terrestial o:::-lgi.;:lf
. .~ :;
J
4Ir that th yrepresent a ’threat to national securitYe In fact, most’ of the sightings have cOnL.llonpl8.ce origins, such as aj.l’craft or aircraft lights seen from an unusual angle or in unusuai meteorological condition: 8.. The ’,trouble is tha:J; the dedfcated "UFO-ologist", 1’1’111 not listen and iamors concerned with selective evidence to support his own thesise ThE
more common criticisms are:-1-fOD will not let the rmblic see its files.. The:re 1s a Trov":-er U})fi-S:’t r secur:rGv reapo s.
-- -- . -.II.~~
a.
There is no cover up and no security ban. It is true
that "Then people ask to see the MOD UFO files they are
told the papers must remain confidential. But there jga mundane, reason for that. The files’ contain volumunous
correspondence from the general public and we cannot divulge the identity of the correspondents~ or the referenc~s to classified subjects which some of the files might containc
To remove these details would require extensive editingand we have not the staff to do the job. It follows thatthe files must.remain closed uhder the rules laid down in’the public Records Acts which at present preclude disclosure
until 30 years have elapsed since the date of the particular
correspondence. The earliest reports MOD hold are dated
1962. All earlier UFO paper3 were destroyed many years ago.b. NOD ...~J?loys_ a sl)eci~l. m:o, organisationo
Quite uni;rue. Nobody is employed full time to monitor UFO
sightings. There is no UFO section in MOD. One of the
Secretarial branches answers letters from the publj.c about
IJ}’Os but it ha.s many other, qui.te different, responF bilities
as well. It does not review’ or analyse the sightings. Itmerely sends the letters to th.e specialised branches ’....ho
I examine them ~olql to see if they have any bearing on theair defencG:;:.!o
4
c. - Ya?~~~~!?!)0:.r8 ’?_~~1fP~~ sigh~~ s ar.2- rEERErte~ tp. }’1.Q~J’ llianv are v~exDlaineQ ~~~~.;.’iC’’’’~~~~~~
No statistical records are kept in MOD because of the
staff shortage. All we can say is that MOD received
rather more than 400 reports ’from the public in 1977y ~t a rate of 20.to 40 per month on average. There was a
flurry of correspondence recently when the Daily Express
launched its advertising campaign for the commercial film
"Close Encounters of the Third Kind".
Attitude of French Uovernment to .UFOs - .. ~"""~ e...- -.c...do. _ ..,. _9. Apart from American policy we have recent information on only two
Governments .- those of Franc.e and Grenada. The French official
procedure is not unlike ours. Reports from the public go in the first
place to the Gendarmerie who if necess81jT interview the observ~r and t ke state~ents. The Gendarmerie send on the reports simultaneously
to the Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales (CENS) and to the French
vnnistry of Defence, who check radars etc to discover any military implications. The reports are then fed into a computer so that they can
be "added to the statistics of the problem".
10. The view of the French r. nistry of :Defence may be summarised as follows:
a. The role of the Air Force consists solely in estimating
I whether certain information amongst the evidence they receive .. ~ likely to affect national defence; this is not in fact so ..~. ~ No acts of aggression either against persons’ or property civilian or military have been detected.
b. The phen0mena cannot at present be analysed by means of
known measuTing instruments .... Whilst maintaining anopen mind 1"e must restrain ourselves from hasty corclu8ionsregardi:1g the nature 3.nd origin of th$ phenomena and acceptthe fact thqt t is : roblem like many others. remains suspendedin space,
- 5 -.’. . "-"">." ’.~,"-’."’~.,""-,<":""""’’’_:’’’~:O’D.:.’q’" - -- """}"".:""’’’’’’’’’’’’’~’’.=’’’’_’_’’’’_’’’’’’","^_:_c.’’’’ ’-..., _."",_",.,_..,..,._.. -,- ,- i.e-....,’.,,,. . .,.,’_,:,:’~~.’:.’-"""_""_,,,, "-.:."’~: ’.~~’r:~’-’ _,.,.. , ’.>v.--.~~,,,,,’L ’,-,~-""_c....,,.. .
._~11.. -the I’~ th~ last few months a small study group h2.8 been set ... ~ ~..... l........"ld or.....
UJ:.JO-u.A--fM’ U l of the CNES. It is chaired bv Monsieur Cla.ude Peherv
and is called the Grol~pe. drEtud~ des Phenomenes Aerospatiaux Non- identifie3~ The .terms of reference for this group are not yet known but the title see s to be self-explanato!y. The group has no formal links with the United KingdoID,and the Department of Education and Sciene advise that there is no similar scientific group in UK to studyunidentified objects to ph~nomena. 12. Lord Clancarty drew attention to this group in a recent Parliamentary Question when he also referred to a broadcast on ETance-Inter radio in February 1974 when M. Robert Galley, the then French_l nister of Defence was interviewed about UFOs. The interview is reportcin a books- "The Crack in the Univerself 1’1h1ch contains an accurate ~ranslation of the broadcast and introduces the transcripfquite fairly as an interview in which the Minister-declared "there are phenomena which are unexplaineft". The blurb on the dust covers however, hasMo Galley freely admitting that UFOs exist and t at they are a serious problem. According to the offical transcript M. Galley made only two pOints of substance:-
a. There are things about UFOs which are not understood ani have not been explained.
b~ "We must adopt an extremely open attitude pf mind to this, not put into doubt the sincerity of people reporting UFOs e..e but at the moment it is re~lly far too soon to draw theleast conclusion".
A tti tude of the Gover:l1men t of Grenada --..... ..- ~~~....,-~’t -~..." ." J~ - ....<1_’13~ In DeceDber 1977 Sir Eric Gairy, Pri~3 ~tiniste~ of Gren~daj~ableda. resolution at the Uilited Nations calling on the Special PoliticalCommt ttee to set up a special agency or department ’;’;0 condu(::t researchinto unidentified flying objects and related pbencmena~ The British .
h
J/lr i’/". (an<l >Ie believe other) representatives were briefed to Oppose such an:)~)! P’agency on the grounds that it would reduce -IGht:; credibility of the UnitE Nations. Sir Eric withdrew the proposal and circulated a draft resoluti n requiring tne Secretary General to conduct a wide-ranginginvestigation into flying saucers, including an analysis of the benefits, problems and dangers stemming from any contact with terrestia life.
14. The Ul~ Special Political Committee advised the General Assembly to take note of the various statements made by the Prime Mini.ster of Grenada and to instruct the Secretary General to transmit the text. to Member states of the ~I and to interested specialist agences. In other w.ords the resolution has ’been shelved indefinitely.,
/ --
. ,
’7 .
e D/Sec(AS)/64/1
8 September 1999
j: c~~~ ’ ..i’ ... .-- (.... ~’;;:; ;).1--~:’ ~,... ..:. VI~-. . ,-t10~’
. . ~ . j} Loose Minute
APSruSofS
Copy to:
AO/ADl
’UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS’ - MOD INTERESTISSUE
1. To provide a note on the Department’s interest in ’UFOs’.RECOMMENDA TION
2. To note.
DETAIL
Policy
3. It is Government policy that any air defence or air traffic implications of ’UFOs’ are a matter for MOD and the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) respectively. MOD’s interest is limited to establishing from any reported sightings it receives whether the UK Air Defence Region has been breached by hostile military activity, and responding to any associated public correspondence.
4. Military Task 9 is to maintain the integrity of the UK’s airspace. This requirement is met by the continuous recognised air picture (radar) and an air policing capability. Any threat to the UK Air Defence Region would be handled in the light of the particular circumstances at the time (it might, if deemed appropriate, involve the scrambling or diversion ofRAF air defence aircraft). From that perspective, reports sent to us of ’UFO’ sightings are examined, but consultation with air defence staff and others as necessary is considered only where there is sufficient evidence to suggest a breach of UK air space: such as reports from credible witnesses (pilots, air traffic controllers etc); those supported by photographic, video or documentary evidence; corroboration by a number of witnesses; or are of a phenomenon currently being observed and might, therefore, be capable of detection. Only a handful of reports have been received in recent years in these categories and further investigation of them has found no evidence of a threat.
- -
Airprox ReportsJ ’’{’’
5. Where a military or civilian pilot considers that his aircraft has been endangered by the prox mity of another aircraft (including any flying object he was unable to
The National Archives
UFO policy
3 page briefing on UFO Policy prepared by head of Sec(AS) for Under Secretary of State for Defence, Peter Kilfoyle MP, in September 1999.
eidentify), or in regulated airspace where an Air Traffic Controller believes there has been the risk of a collision, the pilot or A TC would be obliged to file an airmiss report (Airprox).
-~J
Spaceguard Pro~amme6. The Department of Trade and Industry is responsible for the Spaceguard Programme. We understand that there are currently no plans to set up a national spaceguard agency; the potential threat of impact by near earth objects (such as asteroids) is taken very seriously but they regard this as an issue where a common international approach is essential. In June, the House of Lords debated the Spaceguard Programme; Lord Sainsbury, Minister for Science at the DTI, led the debate for the Government.Role of Sec(AS)2
7. Sec(AS)2 is the focal point within MOD for the Government’s limited interest in ’UFOs’. A 24-hour answerphone is provided so that members of the public can telephone through sighting reports. Reports made elsewhere, either to military establishments, air traffic control centres or the civilian police, all eventually make their way to Sec(AS)2 where each report is considered only to establish whether it has any defence significance. Some 230 sighting reports and 250 letters were received last year; so far this year c 150 reports and 160 letters have been received. Sec(AS)2 is not constituted as a ’UFO’ information bureau. There are no defence resources allocated for this purpose and, where there is no evidence in a report of defence concern, no action is taken to try and identify what might have been seen. From the types of descriptions generally received, aircraft or natural phenomena probably account for most of the observations.
8. Some ’ufologists’ are unhappy with MOD’s limited interest. A small number lobby vociferously for defence funds to be used for ’UFO’ research, have their own agenda for such work and use all possible avenues (eg writing to the Prime Minister, other Government Departments, the media etc) to pursue their aims. All such approaches find their way to MOD, Sec(AS) for action.’UFO’ Files
9. As is the case with other Government files, MOD files are subject to the provisions of the Public Records Act of 1958 and 1967 and official files generally remain closed for 30 years. Prior to 1967 it was the case that ’UFO’ files were destroyed after five years as there was insufficient interest in the subject to warrant their retention. However, since 1967 all ’UFO’ files have been preserved and routinely released to the Public Record Office at the 30-year point.
~ --
10. For some time, Lord Hill Norton, the only Parliamentarian with any interest in ’UFOs’, has been asking that all files containing ’UFO’ information be released to the PRO ahead of the 30-year point. We have looked carefully to see whether this is possible. However, in the absence of a Departmental-wide file database and without knowing the details of all the originating branches, a manual search of in excess of one million files at two main MOD archives would be necessary to locate and list
_.
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TELEPHONE: (21’2) 758-"75 i ~ .....\ .
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The Pennanent Mission of Grenada to .the United Nations presents its compliments to the Pennanent Missions ot Member States to the United Nations and with reference to the Pennanent Representative of Grenada’s letter of August 29, 1978 has the honour to remind that Grenada’s item on the subject of Unidentified Flying Obj~ts and extra-terrestrial phenomenon will come up for discussion in the Special Political Conmittee this week begilU1ing November 27th.. _""". .
.
. . TI1e Permanent Mission of Grenada wishes to bring to the attention of ~tember States t~tt in the interest of not foisting upon the UnitE:d Nationst at this point in time’, the setting ~) of a Department or Agency which would invOlve heavy financj.al costs, the Government of Grenada is proposing that the contemplated study and ,research be placed in the hands of a sma.ll conmittee or ad hoc group of ,xperts, whose task will be to Sublnit a preliminary report on a possib~e framework for the study nd research into the baffling phenomenon. ’.
.
It is the hope or the Goverrunent of Grenada that this proposal and a draft resolution fonlU.Jlated along these lines will receiye the support .of Member States at the United Nations at this 33rd Regular Session of the General Assembly. The Pennanent Mission of Grenada further has the honour to attach the general outline of the draft resolution contemplated. 1ne Pennanent Mission of Grenada to the United Nations avails’ itself of this opportunity to renew to the Pennanent Missions of ~fcmber States to the United Nations the assurances if its highest consideration.
’.
New York, Nove~)er 10, 1978
Pe rmallent Miss ion of Member States to the UNITeD NATIONS , . NEW YORK
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;:;)~!~:~~~~ ;The Ge~eral Assemblv,..;’ 1’~..’ ..:t~;~!~~-;.~~~~~~.. ~~~:-: . ’- :.’ . :":~~.~.~. "’: :;:~.. ’.~:(i .’; ," ,.~ . "~’~"-:’~o::.. ~""’, . ",O( ," Mindful of its COlJlT1ittment to pr~te’ international intcrnational problems. ..’ :..’ . "
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Aware of tl~ growing interest taken by people of the world in Unidentified }:lying Objects an related Phenomena which continue to baffle mankind, and in strange happenings in various parts of the world,......,..... Noting the statement made by the Prime Minister of Grenada’ at the 30th, 31s t, 32nd. and 33rd Session of the General Assembly regarding these, baff! ing , phenomena, and his appeal to have the United Nations conduct an co-ordinate research into Unidentified Flying Objects and related phenOlnena and to dis- seminate n"re widely among the Nations of the world infonnation and other data gathered’
. . Recogn i s ;’.! the con L t tlIlCn t to tesea rch into thes e phenomena den"ns t ra t ed by individual scientists, researc~r~, educational institutions and National Govenullcnts.
co-operation .in ~c:>lVing’:! .
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1. Recollunends that there be ini:tiiated a’ speciaL official Un;,tedi ’Nutdons study on the nature and relationship of Unidentified Flying Objects and extra- terrestrial phenomena.2, HequestsThe Secretary-General to appoInt at the earliest possible
date 3Il naa---hoc group of experts" of not II’Ore than seven (7) scientific experts drawn from within the United Nations Secretariat and from private research organisation. with the task of elaborating a possible framc’Work for the above-mentiont..’I1 study. 3. Further re9uests the Secretary-General to make available to the ad hoc
group 0 f experts a II the re l’evant material, lnclud ing proposal s "nde’ by ~mbe I’ States as well as prev ions and current stud ies aVa ilable on the subj ect . 4. Further re~ues IS the COImnittee to submit a pre limiru y report on its work by June 1, 197 .S. Furt he I’ l’e’l"e s ts the Sec 1’e ta ry’ Gen era 1 to t ranSm it the pre Ii", i na ry repo of the oc group of experts to ~lember States not later than .July 30th, 1979. 6. nec des to i nc hnle in the prov is ional agenda 0 r the Th i rr y FOllrth Sess ion or t h’e Gene ra I ^" emb 1 y the item en t i tl cd .. Repo rr 0 f the ad hoc g 1’011[1 0 f expe rts" to invest [gate the n:ttllre and relationship of Unidenti ned Flying Ohjects and extra-terrestrial phC:Ilomena. .
tUccilles flirt her that u comprehensive report of the C"""’ittee will be tabled at the 35th Regular Session of the General Assembly.
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To oppose the establishment of any such agency.~’ . .., ’. -.... ..:-... ._’_..-~..- -
B POINTS TO K~E2. The British delegation does not think that the establish_ ment of an agency for research into unidentified flying objects is appropriate to the functions of the United Nations’. It considers that the exi~ence of such an agency under UN auspices would be an unjustifiable drain on UN resources which could be better deployed elsewhere.C TACTICS
3. Hopefully a confrontation with the representative of Grenada can be avoid~d, but the UK shouln not hesitate to make its views kno’tln .as and ~,hen a!)Dropriate. Y’)U should seek whatever support YJU can p~rticulirly among the Nine.BACKGROUND
L~. At last year’s UN General Assembly, th~ Grenadan delegation, with the full support of Premier Gair7, sought to establish an ad hoc workin~ group of the UN to evalu~te UFO reports. FCU I-linsiters expre;:;sed th(~ view th::lt to set up any such body would r-;duce the credibility of the UN; accordingly th~ lf~ delegation was instructed to oppose. In the event, no vote was taken on the Grenadan ~esolution; as a co:npromise, the General Assembly II studied the t"cxt II and re~uested the ~ecretary-General to transMit it "to ~tates members of the UN and to interested specialised agen~ies so that they might communicate their views to the Secretary- General".
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The National Archives
MoD Policy UFOs 2005
Copy of MoD policy/position statement on UFOs 2005.
