Stinnett, Phil | Vol (Investigation-11/20/13)

Transcript of the Testimony of Phil Stinnett

Date: November 20, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: December 1, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Phil Stinnett In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

TELEPHONE SWORN STATEMENT OF

PHIL STINNETT

Taken on Wednesday, November 20, 2013, from 1:50 p.m. to

2:19 p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC,

626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper,

State of Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

Phil Stinnett

In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078


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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between

counsel that this Sworn Statement may be taken by

steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified

Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated and agreed by and between

counsel for the respective parties that the signature of

the witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement

of said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.

It is further stipulated and agreed by and between

counsel that any and all objections may be made at the time

of trial, except as to the form of the questions.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-13

E X H I B I T S

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 BY MR. LORAINE: Would you make a statement under

2 oath?

3 BY MR. STINNETT: Make a statement on the phone,

4 you mean, is that what you said?

5 BY MR. LORAINE: Yes.

6 BY MR. STINNETT: Yes, yes.

7 BY MR. LORAINE: Okay, I'm going to have the

8 court reporter swear you in.

9 BY MR. STINNETT: Okay.

10 PHIL STINNETT

11 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

12 testified as follows:

13 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

14 Q. Sir, would you please state your name for the

15 court reporter?

16 A. The name is Phil Stinnett.

17 Q. How do you spell that last name?

18 A. S-T-I-N-N-E-T-T.

19 Q. Mr. Stinnett, you're a former Councilman and

20 former Mayor, is that true, of the City of

21 Joplin?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And can you tell me what period of time you

24 were Councilman?

25 A. From 1998 to 2010.


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1 Q. And Mayor?

2 A. 2004 to 2006.

3 Q. All right. You had some information

4 concerning Mr. Scearce and Mr. Woolston as

5 well as the City Manager. Could we go to Mr.

6 Scearce first?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What information do you have on Councilman

9 Scearce?

10 A. Well, my understanding on Councilman Scearce,

11 that the allegations or the reasons for the

12 investigation have to do with his ethical

13 conduct, and the incident or area of inquiry

14 that was brought up occurred some 20 or 30

15 years ago. He at that point in time was not

16 on the City Council, had no relation to the

17 City Council, and the FBI investigation did

18 not charge him with any criminal activity. I

19 don't understand why the attempt was made to

20 say he had an ethical violation as a

21 Councilman now on something that occurred

22 back then when he was not a Councilman.

23 Q. All right. I believe they said something

24 about making a false statement concerning the

25 events that took place 15 to 20 years ago.


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1 Do you think that has any relevance?

2 A. No, if I understand, and all I know is what

3 I've read in the paper, but from what I

4 understand, he made a statement that he went

5 back and recanted later that he didn't know

6 that the gentleman who had rented the

7 facility from him was conducting any gambling

8 operations. That was my understanding that

9 he indicated he didn't know that at the

10 beginning, recanted that later. He indicated

11 he personally was not involved in any of

12 those activities. I do not believe that

13 causes an ethics violation for him at this

14 point in time.

15 Q. That was maybe inartfully asked questions or

16 something in the beginning by the Globe, I

17 guess?

18 A. Well, it is always extremely difficult to get

19 a complete story under any news media when

20 they're only printing individual excerpts, so

21 I think that perhaps both parties, Mr.

22 Scearce as well as the newspaper, were so on

23 in error and not making sure the complete

24 story got out to begin with.

25 Q. Okay. Did you have a position as a former


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1 Mayor or as a former Councilman on Mr.

2 Woolston's activities in regards to real

3 estate?

4 A. Well, Mr. Woolston, I have no reason to

5 believe and have no facts to indicate to me

6 that he has ever taken any financial gain as

7 a result of his position with the City. He

8 has publicly stated that he did receive a

9 commission on a transaction, but that

10 transaction occurred prior to the City

11 signing an agreement with the master

12 developer, implying that since that period of

13 time he has not received any financial gain

14 from any transaction having anything to do

15 with the master developer. However, he has

16 in the past and continues to recuse himself

17 from voting on issues that come up involving

18 property indicating that he has some interest

19 in it or is in business with someone that has

20 some interest in it. The perception then

21 would become to anybody, I would think, that

22 he has an involvement with both the developer

23 and maybe somebody he's doing business with

24 or in business with and that developer has a

25 tie to the master developer, they're doing


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1 business together. So whether he receives

2 any financial remuneration or not over the

3 counter as far as a real estate transaction

4 he may in effect know or have knowledge of

5 things that are coming about or are going to

6 come about that would put him and his

7 relationship with a developer in a position

8 of having full knowledge that nobody else

9 might have knowing the developer. And if his

10 relationship with a developer gains from any

11 of that he in effect is gaining from that,

12 too, even though he might not be receiving

13 dollars over the counter for that particular

14 transaction. I'm not accusing him of any of

15 that, I'm just saying that he put himself in

16 a position where there is questioning about

17 all of those activities and the perception

18 and the fact that he recuses himself

19 frequently from voting is leading the public

20 thinking that there is something there. I

21 don't know if there is or not, and that casts

22 a shadow over the whole Council I think.

23 Q. All right. Would the fact that he has to

24 abstain seems to be a little unfair to the

25 City in that it's not having its full


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1 representation of its Council members on any

2 given issue given the number of abstainations

3 he has to make?

4 A. That's correct, absolutely correct. You

5 expect to elect somebody that's going to

6 represent you in all issues. I think the

7 City Council has an issue with regards to not

8 voting. We used to in the past, years ago,

9 several years ago, you would bring up your

10 reason on the dais for not voting and you

11 would talk with the City Attorney and explain

12 to him and he would say I don't believe you

13 have a conflict, I believe you have a

14 conflict. They have evolved to the point now

15 where all they do is say I'm going to

16 abstain. They don't really explain to the

17 people why they're abstaining. He may say I

18 have a financial interest, but he doesn't

19 explain what that financial interest is. And

20 he's not the only Council person that's

21 abstaining and not explaining. I have voiced

22 my opinion to all of them, that if you're

23 going to abstain you should make it very

24 clear to the public as to why you are. But,

25 yes, I think that you would expect an elected


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1 official to abstain once in awhile because

2 there can always be a conflict, but not as

3 frequently as is occurring. And when money

4 is involved it always brings out the bad side

5 of everybody.

6 Q. All right. You had indicated you had some

7 questions about the City Manager. Could you

8 please tell me what issues involve the City

9 Manager?

10 A. My primary concern with Mr. Rohr, and Mr.

11 Rohr was hired when I was the Mayor, so I was

12 in the interview process with him and I've

13 been with him from day one through my tenure

14 there, he is a Type A personality, you know,

15 is a striking appearance. He, I think, takes

16 advantage of the fact that with a voluntary

17 type Council, not (inaudible) people, he

18 takes advantage of doing more than running

19 the City based on the policies given. He

20 likes to set policies. He likes to set the

21 scheme of things to happen rather than the

22 Council setting policies and he implementing

23 the policies. Because of that, I think he

24 has taken a way too active of a role with the

25 master developer. I know that the Council


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1 has told him to pull back from that

2 relationship because it appeared to be two

3 individuals with the same kind of

4 personalities feeding off of each other. Mr.

5 Rohr accomplishing for the master developer

6 what he needed from the Council, and the

7 master developer accomplished for Mr. Rohr

8 what he was wanting to see done in his vision

9 of the rebuild of the community. That, to

10 me, is just exactly the opposite of what he

11 as the City Manager should be doing, and that

12 is being very skeptical of the master

13 developer, watching to make sure that every T

14 is crossed and every I is dotted. And I

15 think that relationship potentially is going

16 to harm the City. I know that there are

17 individuals within the community who have

18 expressed those feelings, but to no avail to

19 Mr. Rohr. He's come out of the tornado with

20 a very well perceived public appearance, and

21 rightfully so in many areas. But he pushes

22 the Council from a popularity standpoint.

23 The Council has at times told him we want you

24 to do this, but he doesn't want to do it, he

25 doesn't do it until he's pushed to the very


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1 end. I think he is heading the City in an

2 impossible direction of some financial real

3 big problems. If everything he wants to

4 accomplish and everything the master

5 developer wants to accomplish, I'm not saying

6 it's not good, it could be wonderful, but

7 it's got to be paid for down the road

8 somewhere. It's got to be maintained down

9 the road somewhere, and the money is not

10 always going to be here to cover it. The

11 other thing about Mr. Rohr is that Mr. Rohr

12 has - he rules with intimidation. In my

13 opinion he decimated the Public Works

14 Department, many, many City employees are

15 just flat scared of him. And I mean that's

16 not really an offense, I understand that, but

17 it's not in the best interest of our

18 community either.

19 Q. Do you have personal knowledge from talking

20 with people, City employees, that there is

21 fear and intimidation of him?

22 A. I have not had a one-on-one conversation with

23 any City employee that has indicated that to

24 me. I have had opportunities to listen to

25 multiple employees express that amongst


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1 themselves to each other, but not one-on-one

2 to me personally.

3 Q. But you have heard those expressions from

4 City employees?

5 A. Beg your pardon?

6 Q. You have heard those?

7 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes. More than once. But

8 again not where I can say I've talked to one

9 particular employee and he said that, but

10 only when multiples have been and I've just

11 been in a position where I was able to listen

12 or observe what they were saying.

13 Q. Do you have an opinion on his use of

14 professionals, whether they're lawyers or

15 engineers, that being Mr. Rohr?

16 A. Well, lawyers, I don't think Mr. Rohr has too

17 much of a problem with the City Attorney to

18 do that. Mr. Rohr has the feeling that you

19 do not need a City Engineer to run a Public

20 Works department, you need engineers within

21 the department, but you don't need an

22 engineer to run it because the engineer is

23 not the guy that's designing the plan for the

24 building, he's not the guy that's figuring

25 out the steel, the architects are going to do


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1 that, blah, blah, blah. But you cannot be

2 the head of a department that deals in that

3 terminology and that understanding and

4 understand what any of your subordinates are

5 talking about or any of your consultants that

6 are coming in or talking about so it makes no

7 sense to me why he would want to eliminate an

8 engineer from being the head of your Public

9 Works Department. That's not in the scheme

10 of what he wants to happen in that department

11 and that's why he's tried to change it.

12 Q. Do you think his aggressive nature with

13 employees is a problem for the City?

14 A. Well, yeah, I do, but I have to say that he

15 will not be the first person running a

16 community that runs it in that manner and

17 some probably very successful. And you

18 cannot say that he hasn't had success in his

19 tenure here, but I do not believe that public

20 employees, City employees are going to be a

21 unified organization doing what they should

22 be doing and representing their community

23 because City employees are different than

24 private employees and I don't believe that

25 can be done in a productive manner under that


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1 type of leadership.

2 Q. All right. Do you have an opinion on the

3 special taxes that exist in the City on your

4 Sunset provision and how that might affect

5 future finances?

6 A. Okay. I was involved in some of those and

7 getting the individual when they were started

8 and voted on the first time around, and we

9 have a first in storm water, and we have a

10 public safety, and we have a capital

11 improvement center in particular Sunset taxes

12 of ten years in most cases. Those were all

13 initially initiated for particular type

14 projects because there just wasn't enough

15 money in the budget to do that. There was

16 never a promise at the beginning that we'll

17 never ask to renew them or anything, that was

18 probably the scheme all along that we'll go

19 back and ask to renew. But a lot of those

20 taxes now have become used for not only

21 projects but daily operations to hire

22 additional employees, to do this and that.

23 And that's probably okay if you understand

24 that at some point in time that money may go

25 away, and if it does what will you be able to


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1 do about maintaining your services? That

2 obviously is the fear mechanism that's used

3 to try to get those taxes renewed. If you

4 all don't do this as a community, renew this,

5 then we're going to have to cut back on this,

6 we're going to have to cut back on that. The

7 point is it has allowed him to do a lot more

8 that he's been able to do outside of the

9 constraints of a normal budget. My feeling

10 is that if I as an individual have an extra

11 influx of money and I'm going to have

12 $60,000.00 to spend this year instead of the

13 $40,000.00 I would normally have then I don't

14 spend $50,000.00 thinking I'm going to have

15 $50,000.00 to spend this year and $50,000.00

16 to spend next year, because eventually it may

17 drop back to $40,000.00 and then I've got a

18 real problem. And I'm afraid that the first

19 time the community doesn't pass one of these

20 renewals you're going to see, okay, we're

21 going to have to cut back on City services,

22 which would not necessarily be the case if

23 you used the money only for what the initial

24 intent was for and that works to do specific

25 projects it wouldn't necessarily affect the


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1 general operational budget of that department

2 on a year-to-year basis.

3 Q. And is that the manner of city government

4 that Mr. Rohr runs in that he does rely on

5 these special taxes to run a normal budget?

6 A. It has allowed him to not only do projects,

7 but it has allowed him to, you know, by

8 saying well, wait a minute, City Council has

9 the vote here, the final vote on everything,

10 and they do. And I've told most of them I

11 don't think you're reigning this in like you

12 want to reign it in, but once you start it

13 training downhill it's hard to stop it, it's

14 hard to slow it down. He has used this to do

15 the projects that he promised to do, I will

16 not deny it, but he's used it to increase

17 manpower within the departments and those are

18 ongoing costs. Those are costs that don't

19 stop after the project is over, they

20 continue, so yes, I think he has abused that.

21 They've let him do it, so maybe they're

22 worse off than he is.

23 Q. Do you have any further opinions that I

24 should include in my report?

25 A. No, except for the master developer. I think


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1 the relationship between Mr. Rohr and the

2 master developer needs to be pulled farther

3 and farther apart. I serve on the 353 Board,

4 the Joplin Redevelopment Authority Board, got

5 appointed to that board by the Council a few

6 months back, and there's a lot of potential

7 problem activities there. I mean there's an

8 awful lot being based on this happening, that

9 happening, that happening, that happening,

10 and I think Mr. Rohr should be at a distance

11 away from all that to represent the Council

12 as a safeguard as best he can under the

13 circumstances. I believe he's been told to

14 do that now. I don't believe he did that in

15 the beginning.

16 Q. Do you believe that he will do that based on

17 what you know the situation to be?

18 A. As long as the projects moved forward that he

19 wants to see moved forward I don't think

20 there will be an issue, but I think that he

21 will become a cheerleader for projects if

22 there's any indication they're going to slow

23 down the projects that he likes, and like

24 anybody that will talk to you will talk about

25 the 1st and Main downtown project that he was


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1 trying to champion for years that many people

2 think is not necessarily the project that

3 it's going to be productive, financially

4 feasible, and I think he has shown in the

5 past and will continue to show that he will

6 do anything he can possibly within all those

7 limits of trying to make that project fly.

8 And that to me becomes a personal thing and

9 not necessarily what's best for the

10 community.

11 Q. In other words Wallace-Bajjali as a

12 consultant should be restrained and watched

13 by the City Manager as opposed to the City

14 Manager being a cheerleader for them as

15 you've indicated?

16 A. That's my opinion.

17 Q. Okay. Do you have anything further that we

18 should include in the report?

19 A. No, sir, not that I'm aware of.

20 Q. All right. Sir, one other question I have,

21 is this 353 corporation, is that running

22 under budget now or is it in budget, or is it

23 out of budget?

24 A. There's no way to answer that question

25 because the budget is a fluid floating thing.


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1 Currently we have no money. We're at a

2 negative balance right now. But that's

3 primarily because the organization has not

4 received the TIF funds that will be coming to

5 it, nor has it received the tax credits that

6 are applied by the state for it, so we're in

7 a negative situation right now and probably

8 will be for awhile. We actually got a loan

9 over at a bank that's we just paid a bunch of

10 interest on and stuff. Eventually, and we

11 rely heavily on the City Finance Director and

12 the City Attorney to advise us to where we're

13 heading, eventually we'll get back into a

14 positive situation. That commission was

15 never designed to have a bunch of money in

16 hand, but things have been kind of fluid and

17 some of the money that was kind of implied

18 this may happen down the road to spend on

19 some projects, that money is kind of

20 disappearing, slips and slides here and

21 there. It is extremely hard to keep up with

22 everything that's going on in that group, but

23 I believe it's a good group. I believe the

24 board itself is a good group. Most of us

25 have come in after the - most of us were


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1 appointed by the Council just recently and to

2 build the board up to a larger number of

3 people and to bring a little bit more

4 expertise to the board, because the board

5 existed for years and didn't do anything.

6 When the City decided to use that board as a

7 vehicle for land purchases and to work with

8 the master developer the people on that board

9 were not necessarily who you might appoint to

10 the board if you were starting it brand new.

11 So the Council has beefed the board up and

12 everything, but a lot of the stuff that

13 happened, the contracts had been made, the

14 procedures of how they do things had been

15 established prior to most of us getting

16 there, so we're trying to weed our way

17 through. And actually we've put off a few

18 things until we can get it worked out a

19 little different.

20 Q. Were those procedures set in place by City

21 Manager Rohr?

22 A. They were probably developed by - I don't

23 know want to - they were probably developed

24 in conjunction with Mr. Rohr and Mr. Wallace

25 and approved by the Council. I - under the


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1 way the City normally operates here, again,

2 because of the volunteer Council, the Council

3 generally - this stuff is brought to them,

4 here's what we propose, this is what the City

5 is recommending. So I'm sure those were all

6 brought to the Council for approval. And

7 they approved it. I mean there's nothing -

8 they did. You can't say they didn't, they

9 did, but it's almost like Obamacare. You

10 know, they said, well, we can't read all

11 these pages, we can't read all that stuff in

12 that master development plan over a period of

13 a few days, and they actually had only a few

14 days to review it before they voted on it. I

15 don't think Mr. Rohr is totally responsible

16 for that, though.

17 Q. City Attorney Brian Head has complained that

18 he was not involved in the planning process

19 with the Wallace-Bajjali project under oath.

20 Do you have any knowledge about that?

21 A. I've heard that statement made. I do know

22 that Mr. Head at a Council meeting advised

23 the Council of his opinion, I wouldn't agree

24 - I wouldn't vote on this tonight, I wouldn't

25 agree to this tonight, and they went ahead


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1 and did it. He was trying to do his due

2 diligence. I don't have any actual facts,

3 but I have heard him say that he was not

4 involved or didn't have the opportunity to do

5 what he wanted he do or would like to have

6 done as the City Attorney before it happened.

7 But, again, this is somewhat typical with

8 total volunteer elected Council for the staff

9 to bring something and say, here, - you know,

10 it's done. We've done our due diligence, you

11 know, put your rubber stamp on it and let's

12 get on with life. And if you've got a

13 Council that is very supportive of the City

14 Manager then that's probably going to happen.

15 And if you've got a split Council like we

16 have, sometimes it does, sometimes it

17 doesn't.

18 Q. But, nevertheless, if the City Manager is

19 aggressive, as you indicate Rohr is, it's

20 going to be his policies rather than the

21 Council's policies?

22 A. That's part of the problem. If you

23 understand what the City charter says it says

24 the Council sets policy and the City Manager

25 implements policy. If you were to follow the


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1 Council for a year's period of time or the

2 Council meetings you would see an awful lot

3 of policies changed done by the Manager, but

4 he understands what he's doing, he's smart

5 enough to come to the Council and get

6 approval, but it's his policy.

7 Q. All right. Anything further, sir?

8 A. I don't think so, no.

9 Q. I really appreciate you coming forward with

10 this. And just to set the record straight,

11 you've been pretty much involved in City

12 affairs and City government, and you've had

13 knowledge and history of this in Joplin for a

14 number of years, is that correct?

15 A. That's true. I was born and raised here. I

16 served 10 years beginning in 1988 on the

17 Building Board of Appeals, kind of got my

18 feet wet, and then went on the Council. I

19 have probably spent the last 25 years trying

20 to be involved in some way, shape, or form.

21 I continue to serve. I serve on three boards

22 of the City now.

23 Q. What are those boards, sir?

24 A. Chairman of the Joplin First Response Tornado

25 Fund, which is the fund that dispenses the


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1 monies that were donated to the City from all

2 over the place as a result of the tornado,

3 and these were funds that were specifically

4 donated to the City of Joplin. There are

5 other funds out there. We have a five member

6 board. I was chairman of that board and

7 we're totally hands free. The Council

8 appointed us and no authority over us, don't

9 question anything, we do it ourselves. I've

10 been on the Sports Authority Board because I

11 was active in getting the Sports Authority

12 started in Joplin when I was on the Council

13 and I've been appointed to that board after I

14 got off the Council. Then on the JRC, the

15 353 Board.

16 Q. One more question on the Sports Authority.

17 Are you aware that the minor league team

18 that's being discussed, it's actually an

19 independent league team that's being

20 discussed was developed in house by the

21 Engineering Department?

22 A. No, all I basically know is it's a Texas

23 team, and they lost the franchise, and trying

24 to move, and that's all I really understand.

25 Q. I guess my point is, if that was developed by


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1 Wallace-Bajjali they would receive a fee on

2 that?

3 A. Yeah, it's never been presented at least in

4 anyplace I've been involved, nothing has ever

5 been presented that tells me they have. I'm

6 not saying they haven't, but I've not seen

7 anything presented to me that says they have.

8 Q. If the City Manager disciplined one of the

9 professional engineers for developing that

10 contact outside the Wallace-Bajjali contract

11 you would question that and you would find

12 that in support of your position, wouldn't

13 you?

14 A. Yes, I would.

15 Q. That would be not good?

16 A. That would be not good, yes, you're

17 absolutely right.

18 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I

19 appreciate your help and I look forward to

20 rendering some sort of report to you all.

21 A. All right. Thank you. I appreciate it, sir.

22

23 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

24


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the

20th day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Stinnett, Phil | Vol (Investigation-11/20/13)

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Transcript of Stinnett, Phil | Vol (Investigation-11/20/13)