Roberts, Lane | Testimony transcript

Transcript of the Testimony of Lane Roberts

Date: November 5, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 13, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Lane Roberts In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

LANE ROBERTS

Taken on Tuesday, November 5, 2013, from 5:46 p.m. to 6:50

p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626

S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of

Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.


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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn

Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by

SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and

afterwards reduced into typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 5-6

Advice of Rights

Exhibit #17 . . . . . . . 33-9

Joplin Globe article

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 LANE ROBERTS

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. Sir, I'm going to hand you what has been

6 marked Exhibit #A. It's an Advice of Rights.

7 I want you to read that and I'll read it to

8 you and we'll make sure you know what it is

9 and what it does. Basically I'll read it to

10 you after you get done.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. If you will, sir, print your name and then

13 sign it, if you will, Mr. Roberts, and date

14 it. It's 11/5.

15 A. (Witness complies)

16 Q. Sir, have you complied with my request to

17 read the Advice of Rights, sign the document,

18 and is it marked Exhibit #A?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Chief, I was privileged with the opportunity

21 to chat with you a little bit in the hall. I

22 think you know what I'm doing here, probably

23 out of the newspaper and probably out of City

24 Hall, but I'm charged with the task of trying

25 to investigate two, I don't want to call them


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1 competing, but they appear to be two groups

2 pointing fingers at each other, and trying to

3 get to some of those. And there are going to

4 be some questions I will ask you that you may

5 not think is related to it and maybe it

6 isn't, I don't know, but I'm doing my best to

7 try to accumulate quickly information. I have

8 no personal knowledge of any of this, which

9 is a benefit to me. I don't come in with any

10 bias one way or the other. I don't know

11 what's going on here so part of the process

12 is to learn what's going on. I have done

13 this many, many times, probably over two

14 hundred times. I've done Hannibal, St.

15 Charles, the City of Laurie, several fire

16 districts, and this one that I can recall.

17 The purpose of this is to elicit information

18 and what this document, Exhibit #A, says

19 essentially, I'm going to read it because

20 that's what I said I would do. "I wish to

21 advise you that you are being questioned as

22 part of an official investigation by the City

23 of Joplin. You will be asked questions

24 related and specifically directed to the

25 performance of your official duties of


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1 fitness for office. You are entitled to all

2 the rights and privileges guaranteed by the

3 laws of the Constitution of the State and the

4 Constitution of the United States, including

5 the right not to be compelled to incriminate

6 yourself. I further wish to advise you that

7 if you refuse to testify or to answer

8 questions relating to the performance of your

9 official duties, you will be subject to

10 departmental charges, which could result in

11 your dismissal from your official duties. If

12 you do answer these statements may be used

13 against you in relation to subsequent

14 departmental charges, but not in any

15 subsequent criminal proceedings." That is

16 what we call a Garrity Warning and

17 essentially it's the method by which a city

18 finds out what it knows. It can only know

19 what its employees know. That's what I'm

20 doing here. If at any time you want to take

21 a break let me know. If I don't treat you

22 cordially let me know. If you get aggravated

23 at me I'll rephrase something. I'm here to

24 try to learn some information. Your name has

25 come about several times so we talk. And if


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1 you have some questions I'll be happy to try

2 to treat people with the courtesy I would

3 want you to treat me with, okay?

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. Chief, there's been right off the bat some

6 statements that you have passed some

7 information allegedly from the FBI to City

8 Manager Rohr, and I guess I need to ask you

9 what that information is and what your source

10 was. We can talk a little bit about the

11 pending Request for Freedom of Information

12 Act and all those things, but to cut to the

13 chase I think the key to this thing is, and I

14 talked on the record, I talked with you off

15 the record about your background and I

16 recognize that you're highly qualified and

17 for all intents and purposes I've heard a

18 good Police Chief. So I mean so far that's

19 what I've heard. The question I guess I have

20 that I've got to get to is what was it that

21 you told Mr. Rohr, the City Manager, that he

22 repeated that he had information that wound

23 up in the newspaper? And I can get more

24 specific about that, but to say the least

25 there was a statement made by Rohr publicly


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1 that he had information that would keep

2 Scearce from running for Mayor and that's

3 what I want to know, what information did he

4 have?

5 A. This may take a minute because in order for

6 you to understand what I told him and why it

7 was told I've got to lay a little ground

8 work.

9 Q. Sure.

10 A. We have an officer who is assigned as liaison

11 to the FBI and actually works in that office.

12 There was one that worked there and there's

13 now the subsequent replacement.

14 Q. And give me their names.

15 A. The officer that worked there originally was

16 James Altic who is currently the Police Chief

17 at Seneca. The officer there at the moment

18 is William Davis, although he has very

19 limited, if any, involvement in this. When I

20 first arrived here there was an ongoing

21 criminal investigation regarding organized

22 gambling that was interstate. It involved

23 the FBI. And prior to me ever having a

24 uniform the interim chief took me over to

25 their office, I met with them, they gave me a


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1 thumbnail about the nature of this

2 investigation and how expansive it was. They

3 made it clear that we had interstate

4 connections, that there were direct

5 connections to this crime, there were many,

6 many witnesses and suspects, lots of people

7 in Joplin were involved, but they, in fact,

8 put people at risk if this information got

9 out. In the course of that they identified

10 one of my Lieutenants at the time as being

11 somebody who took part in this activity and

12 who also knew and was associated with known

13 criminals, people who were part of this

14 organized effort. They apprised me off and

15 on that they were part of eight months of all

16 of this. There came a point in time when

17 they were going to act. The difficulty that

18 I was faced with is I don't work with the

19 Council, I work for Mark Rohr. Mark Rohr

20 works for the Council. So I found myself and

21 one of my officers investigating a member of

22 Mark's direct supervisor and my problem was

23 was I going to let him be surprised by that.

24 It didn't seem like very good politics to me

25 and it didn't seem appropriate to me leaving


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1 him in the dark and letting him get surprised

2 with it. Mr. Scearce's name came up during

3 that investigation. When Mr. Scearce's name

4 came up and not until Mr. Scearce's name came

5 up did I ever mention his name to Mark Rohr.

6 We were in the process, I made a decision

7 based on what the FBI told me that I could

8 not continue to employ that Lieutenant.

9 Q. What was the Lieutenant's name?

10 A. The Lieutenant's name was Geoff Jones. It

11 was a very difficult situation because

12 although the FBI had made me aware of all

13 this, basically they told me I couldn't tell

14 anybody. So now I'm employing a command

15 level officer engaged in inappropriate

16 conduct, but I can't tell anybody about it.

17 So I went to their office, reviewed all the

18 reports, interviewed their agents and

19 determined I didn't have a choice but to

20 terminate that man, which I did. He left an

21 appeal with the Personnel Board, he went to

22 the Circuit Court and then he went to the

23 Court of Appeals and my decision was upheld.

24 Q. Based on what?

25 A. It was based on the fact that FBI would not


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1 work with the Joplin Police Department as

2 long as he was employed here, based on the

3 fact that he had been dishonest in my

4 investigation, I know today I have

5 information he lied to the Personnel Board,

6 and I have a video evidence of him

7 associating with known criminals. The

8 conduct was simply not acceptable in a police

9 officer, much less a commanding level

10 officer.

11 Q. Did you have any video of him associating

12 with Scearce?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you have any information that Scearce was

15 going to be indicted?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was there any information in anything that

18 you reviewed, and I assume these are FBI

19 reports, and I've seen FBI reports before and

20 they don't like to give them out to very many

21 people, was there anything in there that

22 indicated Scearce was a target of a criminal

23 investigation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was that?


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1 A. At no time was I ever given FBI reports, nor

2 do I have any in my possession right now. I

3 was allowed to review those reports in the

4 FBI's office and only there.

5 Q. I've done that.

6 A. In the course of this investigation, now I've

7 got to be careful because the information

8 that I was given - let me go back. When I

9 explained to the FBI that they were

10 investigating one of my direct supervisor's

11 employers I needed to know what can I tell

12 him about this without either disrupting or

13 in some way damaging the investigation. They

14 gave me a very specific set of bullet points

15 that I was authorized to tell Mr. Rohr. I

16 told Mr. Rohr this.

17 Q. Do you have those bullet points?

18 A. It was never reduced to writing.

19 Q. What were they?

20 A. One, that Mr. Scearce had rented to known

21 bookies, that he actually had gone to his

22 building for the purpose of facilitating

23 their business, that he himself had gambled

24 with them, that he had run phone lines for

25 them to be able to run the business, and that


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1 he had continued socializing with those

2 people on an ongoing basis. That in a

3 nutshell is what Mr. Rohr was told.

4 Q. Okay. Let me recall here for a minute. Did

5 I hear you say that he was not indicted?

6 A. He was not indicted.

7 Q. Was there ever an explanation of why he

8 wasn't indicted?

9 A. Essentially there was a whole bunch of people

10 that were in that investigation, that were

11 the subject of that investigation that were

12 not indicted. My understanding was the U.S.

13 Attorney didn't feel that it was worth their

14 time. Basically they just weren't big enough

15 fish.

16 Q. I know you're telling me the truth because

17 you said you'd tell me the truth and I know

18 that you're not going to lie on something,

19 but you understand that we're in a situation

20 that the feds have let you down.

21 A. I think that's an understatement.

22 Q. And where I'm at now is I've got complaints

23 out there. Perhaps Mr. Rohr should not have

24 said I've got things that if you run for

25 Mayor you're not going to win. I mean maybe


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1 he shouldn't have said that.

2 A. I rather wish he had not.

3 Q. But he has and we're now dealing with that

4 problem. So what else is there that you know

5 in that investigation that you've read, what

6 else other than what you've told me was

7 indictable? Associating with known gamblers.

8 A. Here is the challenge that I have had and

9 continue to have right now, is what I know is

10 part of an FBI investigation and I have not

11 been authorized to release it. What Mark

12 Rohr knows is what I just told you. That's

13 the information that he conveyed to then

14 Mayor Gary Shaw. Subsequently he conveyed

15 it. I did not talk to Gary Shaw. He

16 conveyed it to Mike Woolston. I did not talk

17 to Mike Woolston. He conveyed it to Melodee

18 and I was present for that and gave her the

19 same bullet points.

20 Q. Melodee?

21 A. Melodee Colbert-Kean who is our current

22 Mayor. At no time frankly did either Mark

23 Rohr or I believe that this investigation

24 would still be going on for five years down

25 the road. I have not been authorized to


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1 release anything other than what I just told

2 you. When Mark said what he said my concern

3 at the time was all you know is what I just

4 told you. You were given a very sanitized

5 detailed free list of bullet points because

6 it was important that you know so that you

7 didn't get surprised. That was the purpose

8 of my telling him. Nothing has changed. I

9 am still not authorized to release the

10 information that I know to be true. I can't

11 even release it to Geoff Jones. And I would

12 love to be vindicated in the media for my

13 reasons for terminating that Lieutenant, but

14 I've never been able to tell anybody because

15 that's not my information and I can't prove

16 it even if I did reveal it because I don't

17 have any of those documents. They belong to

18 the FBI. It's their property.

19 Q. You know, we have an interesting problem from

20 the standpoint that I've got a guy whose

21 reputation, he's complaining about his

22 reputation ruined. I've got a guy that's

23 mimicking some information that he was given

24 and not anything more. And now I've got a

25 Police Chief that feels that he can't release


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1 any additional information because the FBI

2 hasn't authorized him to do so. And yet I'm

3 asked to investigate Mr. Scearce, what he's

4 done wrong and why he ought to be impeached.

5 You know, you're going to be in a difficult

6 situation, and so am I, if we don't get past

7 the point we're at now because I mean they're

8 talking - I mean there is discussing about

9 impeaching a guy. He is a publicly elected

10 official. I mean we could certainly have a

11 secret impeachment, but the results and the

12 name clearing and all the other due process

13 stuff is there. So I guess my comment is who

14 do you have to talk with?

15 A. There is nobody. If I've held one

16 conversation I've held fifty conversations

17 with the FBI and the U.S. Attorney wanting

18 information that I could release. They have

19 turned this community on its ear and left us

20 to cannibalize one another. There is no

21 information that I can produce because they

22 won't release it. And therein lies the

23 problem. It's no different than it was with

24 Geoff Jones. I know all kinds of stuff. I

25 can't release any of it because I don't have


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1 anything to release. And anything I tell you

2 comes out of their files and now I'm

3 committing a federal crime because they have

4 an ongoing interstate investigation

5 concerning this gambling. That investigation

6 is not over. It's only the local component

7 that's done.

8 Q. Well, I've got to go --

9 A. He is, but there are also local informants,

10 people whose safety is at risk if that

11 information is released inappropriately.

12 Q. Have you talked with an attorney?

13 A. No, other than the City Attorney. Well, the

14 U.S. Attorney.

15 Q. He doesn't do much private practice.

16 A. It doesn't help me much.

17 Q. No, who is that down there now?

18 A. Mike --

19 Q. That's all right, I can find out. You

20 believe that you will be indicted for

21 violation of a federal criminal act?

22 A. I didn't say that. I didn't say I'd be

23 indicted, although conceivably I could. I

24 would be committing a crime to release

25 investigative information from another police


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1 agency's investigation. That's not my

2 material.

3 Q. I hate to say that's a thing to lose your job

4 over.

5 A. If losing my job for doing the right thing

6 and abiding by the law is what happens I'll

7 deal with it. I have been between this rock

8 and a hard place for seven years. It has

9 been uncomfortable and unpleasant. It is no

10 different today.

11 Q. Probably worse. Well, you know, you read the

12 warning.

13 A. What I can tell you is this. With regard to

14 I think what Mr. Rohr believes, when I told

15 you that he facilitated an ongoing criminal

16 enterprise that's criminal conduct. He did

17 that by allowing them to over the course of

18 five years to conduct - this is his

19 statement, not mine - to conduct business on

20 his property and he knew it. It's on the

21 radio he said that just last week.

22 Q. Well, he's trying to draw a distinction

23 between when he first rented it and after

24 they were there.

25 A. It doesn't make any difference. He can tell


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1 you that he didn't know what they were going

2 to do when they moved in, but he said on the

3 radio that he knew what they were doing for

4 the remaining four years that they conducted

5 business out there. They were his tenants on

6 his property. That's criminal conspiracy.

7 He was party to it. He ran phone lines so

8 they could do their business. He added onto

9 his facility so they could do their business.

10 The whole idea that somehow a lawyer told

11 him that he shouldn't engage in an ongoing

12 criminal enterprise, told him to ignore it?

13 No lawyer told him that. At least no lawyer

14 worth their salt.

15 Q. Certainly no lawyer that knew federal

16 criminal conspiracy law.

17 A. And therein lies the issue. That's criminal

18 conduct. Regardless of whether he ever took

19 a bet is criminal conduct. And in my mind

20 things that he's said to the public are lies.

21 I have no personal animosity towards Bill.

22 I actually kind of half like him on a

23 personal basis. He's a public official and

24 that conduct is not acceptable. I abide by

25 the law which is why I'm in the predicament


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1 that I'm in right now. I'm not going to

2 violate the law and I don't appreciate public

3 officials who do. Violating the public by

4 lying about which he knows the truth is not

5 acceptable. He was asked no less than fifty

6 times, did you or did you not know. Now he's

7 telling us, well, I knew, but I didn't know

8 when they first rented it from me, and

9 somehow that makes it okay. That's a crock.

10 Q. Let me ask you a question. You saw the note?

11 A. No, I've never seen the note.

12 Q. I'll show you the note. Here is a note.

13 A. Okay.

14 Q. Carol Stark, you know who she is?

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. Continuing criminal activity I think it says,

17 something like that, line 4. Something like

18 that.

19 A. His handwriting is tough.

20 Q. Yes, he explained it all to me. I've got it

21 somewhere, but I don't recall right now.

22 Anyway that's the famous note. I asked for

23 Carol Stark. She apparently called and had

24 information. I asked for Carol Stark. Will

25 you meet with me and let me know some of your


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1 information? No. Why would she say that?

2 Why would she do that?

3 A. She's going to say she's the media and they

4 protect sources and all that.

5 Q. And you know what, that's okay, I never asked

6 her to disclose her sources. I just asked

7 her to tell me what the nature of her talk to

8 this poor guy was, you know, and she won't

9 help me. And all of that is helpful to this

10 investigation.

11 A. Sure. Did he tell you that we had gone and

12 had an interview with her?

13 Q. Tell me about that.

14 A. Well, I was asked to meet over at her office

15 and she asked us about this issue with Bill

16 Scearce. Bill had contacted them, he had

17 made statements that he didn't know anything

18 about anything, and she wanted to know. See,

19 we were all just real secretive about this

20 thing because the FBI wasn't telling anybody

21 and I couldn't tell anybody, and then Bill

22 commanded a meeting in Mark's office with he

23 and I and Mark and the City Attorney. In

24 that meeting he accused me of inappropriate

25 conduct by informing Mark of the fact that he


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1 was a person of interest in this

2 investigation. It's not inappropriate. It

3 was authorized. But what he did, I mean what

4 he called that meeting was the contents of

5 that meeting had nothing to do with the FBI.

6 That's not the information. And now suddenly

7 there's information in the City's possession

8 that can be released, the fact that we had

9 that meeting. And I can't tell you, I do not

10 know how Carol found out that meeting

11 occurred. There was at least four people in

12 the office and who knows how many saw us all

13 go in there. So I was called over and asked

14 about the meeting and I told them the same

15 thing I just told you.

16 Q. Chief, I respect you, but I've got a job to

17 do.

18 A. I understand.

19 Q. And part of my job is to - I mean my

20 experience with the FBI is that unless you're

21 a U.S. Attorney or an assistant you don't get

22 those reports. And if they give one - and

23 one time since I've been out at the U.S.

24 Attorney's Office I did get the opportunity

25 to look, you know, but no copies. I mean I


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1 had that experience. You usually can develop

2 independent sources and you don't have to use

3 that, you can talk to the witnesses they

4 talked with and things of that nature and

5 develop the same story.

6 A. You can if you know what those witnesses'

7 names are, but they didn't give me the names

8 of confidential informants.

9 Q. Then none of your information that you have

10 can really endanger anyone if you don't have

11 their names.

12 A. If you say things that people can draw

13 inferences from maybe it doesn't endanger the

14 right people, maybe it endangers the wrong

15 people. You just don't go swinging a lot of

16 information. We know of at least one

17 significant beating that occurred where a man

18 was hospitalized as a result of this

19 investigation in Joplin. Not the interstate

20 stuff but right here in town.

21 Q. Can you give me that information?

22 A. There's a record of that.

23 Q. Who was it?

24 A. I'd have to get the record. He reported the

25 beating. We have suspects. In fact, we


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1 arrested the suspect in that case.

2 Q. Can you give me that information?

3 A. You can go to records request and get that

4 easily.

5 Q. From who?

6 A. Us. That's a Joplin case.

7 Q. I don't need that, I'll just ask you to get

8 it for me. That will work.

9 A. Okay. I'll get it, but the case itself is

10 open record. The fact that it's related to

11 this case --

12 Q. I mean it might lend credibility to your

13 position to the Council because I'm going to

14 have to look the Council in the eye and tell

15 them I can't comply with the request that

16 they asked me to give and here's why, here's

17 what happened to one guy that did get hurt

18 because of this. Makes some sense to me.

19 A. What you're going to see is you're going to

20 see a report on assault. That report doesn't

21 contain that information.

22 Q. That's okay.

23 A. I'll show you the information on the assault

24 and who was arrested as a result of it.

25 Q. Okay. I really need to have information and


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1 I would be willing to talk to a U.S. Attorney

2 or assistant if they'll talk with me. My

3 guess is they don't give a shit what I need,

4 but --

5 A. It's with the Bureau at the moment, not the

6 U.S. Attorney. In fact, Debbie Woodin called

7 me today. Did I tell you what they told her

8 when she asked about the status of the

9 request?

10 Q. You said something about it had been extended

11 for --

12 A. It's in their back log file.

13 Q. It may never come out.

14 A. Absolutely true.

15 Q. Yeah, it may never come out. Unfortunately,

16 you know, there are collateral damage to

17 those issues, you know. You're protecting

18 collateral damage the other way, but your

19 Chief could be collateral damage, you know.

20 I mean it's unfortunate, but they need to be

21 somewhat responsive, and they're not. Well,

22 it's my understanding, and I understand your

23 position that you're not going to give me the

24 information that I need.

25 A. Let's assume for a moment that I did. You


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1 have nothing but hearsay. What I'm telling

2 you is what I read in reports.

3 Q. But you know what, I don't need but hearsay

4 for an impeachment. I need something more.

5 I don't need first-hand knowledge. What I

6 need is more likely than not that the

7 information that you're telling me is going

8 to be impeachable versus what this - you

9 know, this is probably defamatory. It's

10 probably not enough information to certainly

11 help. Carol hasn't helped any. So my

12 frustration is going to be, and I mean I

13 understand that this is my asking questions,

14 but I respect your position and the position

15 you're in. I'm trying to negotiate with you.

16 But, yeah, I mean you read the warning.

17 A. Your frustration and mine are very similar,

18 but I have issued Garrity warnings myself

19 many times over and I know nothing in the

20 Garrity ruling that says that I'm required to

21 violate the law in order to abide by it. And

22 I would be violating the law to provide

23 information from somebody else's

24 investigation, particular a federal matter.

25 I wish I could. I would give anything to


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1 pour my heart out and just get this thing

2 with a stake driven through its heart once

3 and for all. I'm sick to death of it. But I

4 can't. And if the Council feels that my

5 abiding by the law is in some fashion

6 problematic for them they don't need to

7 terminate me, they can have my notice. I'm

8 not going to walk away from this with my head

9 hung down.

10 Q. I certainly don't want to be the instrument

11 of that, I guarantee you.

12 A. You're in a tough spot. I realize that. Let

13 me ask you this. When we're talking

14 impeachable what he did was criminal and he

15 has lied about it. Is there any worse

16 transgression for a public official than to

17 lie to the public?

18 Q. No, but we haven't gotten the lie yet.

19 A. But I have given you - anything I tell you is

20 the same substance of what I've told you

21 about him committing criminal acts and

22 knowing it and lying about it. The same

23 thing.

24 Q. Well, you know --

25 A. I simply can't get those documents.


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1 Q. Let me just say this, Chief. You're an

2 evidence gatherer and you know what good is

3 that evidence if there's no credible

4 background. I mean if you told me here, look

5 here, this what I read, you're either a

6 credible guy or you're not, and obviously

7 you're a credible man. Do I think you would

8 lie? No. Am I charged with the

9 responsibility of digging enough up to

10 impeach this guy? Well, maybe both of these

11 two guys are going to get in trouble. I

12 don't know. I'm learning. But up to this

13 point the guy that's probably - I mean I

14 don't have much on Scearce.

15 A. In your mind are his personal statements

16 credible evidence? There's a recording of

17 his interview with KCRG where he said, yeah,

18 I found out the first few months and then I

19 called my lawyer and he said to ignore it.

20 Q. Yeah, I did see that. I did see - let me

21 just give you what is referenced here. I'm

22 just gathering this stuff today, you know.

23 Here is Exhibit #2. Tell me if that's - take

24 your time, Chief. You're under a lot of

25 pressure. Read the whole thing.


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1 A. To be quite frank with you, I know what you -

2 I appreciate your sensitivity, but I don't

3 feel pressured here. My conscience is clear.

4 This is not the information I'm referring

5 to.

6 Q. Look at the last paragraph there, maybe.

7 I've got some nuance there that he maybe was

8 trying to explain something.

9 A. What I'm suggesting to you is this. Mr.

10 Scearce, he's quoted in the paper repeatedly.

11 He gave a - he actually held a press

12 conference wherein he told a number of people

13 in front of the media I did not know what

14 they were doing, and then he goes on the

15 radio and says on the radio for the whole

16 world to hear I misunderstood, I thought - I

17 know what they were doing when they first

18 moved in. Of course I knew what they were

19 doing, this is almost a quote. You couldn't

20 not know what they were doing, there was so

21 much traffic going in and out, so I called my

22 lawyer and he said to ignore it. So he

23 allowed this criminal enterprise on his

24 property for the remaining four years.

25 That's criminal conduct, one. Then two, when


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1 he said he didn't know about it it was a lie.

2 He admitted it was a lie. And I don't know

3 what more I would contribute than that, which

4 is his own conduct.

5 Q. Here is a quote. "After first repeatedly

6 denying any knowledge of the gambling

7 operation at the office he rented to the

8 bookie Scearce recently told the Globe that

9 while that was true initially he ultimately

10 learned what was going on there. He said he

11 was never involved in the gambling

12 operations, but did not do anything about it

13 after learning of it." That is pretty close

14 to impeachable.

15 A. That document you'll notice is dated just

16 recently, two weeks ago.

17 Q. Yes, November 1st.

18 A. Yeah, this discussion, his denial, has been

19 going on for over a year and the denial --

20 Q. But where is the part about the attorney gave

21 him advice?

22 A. He said that just last week on KRZG.

23 Q. Separate from this?

24 A. Separate from that.

25 Q. How do we get a copy of that?


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1 A. I think you can probably call KRZG and ask

2 for a copy. It should be public record. I

3 mean they aired it. You might even be able

4 to get it off the Internet.

5 Q. Why don't I give you that job?

6 A. I can try. I'm kind of a techno idiot, but

7 maybe I can get some help.

8 Q. Yeah, one of your young guys.

9 A. The point is what's happening is that each

10 time we get closer to your investigation he

11 is closer to --

12 Q. Telling the truth.

13 A. What we're doing here is trying to ease him

14 into the bath water a toe at a time.

15 Q. Uh-huh.

16 A. And what you're reading there, the Globe said

17 he had repeatedly denied?

18 Q. After at first repeatedly denying any

19 knowledge.

20 A. In fact, you may find there was a press

21 conference that he called and there was a

22 reporter from the Globe which he asked her if

23 she didn't understand English when he said

24 that he was not going to comment, and in that

25 article he said very clearly I didn't know


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1 what was going on.

2 Q. Chief, if you don't mind I'm going to just

3 start documenting something here. I'm going

4 to show you what we've just been talking

5 about. This is a note from my legal

6 secretary that she picked out of the Joplin

7 Globe. I've put in green a portion that

8 we've been talking about. Is that true? And

9 this is Exhibit #17. Is that a true statement

10 I just made?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. So this will be the beginning.

13 If you can provide me through one of your

14 young policemen to get some, I don't care how

15 you get it, just so you get

16 it --

17 A. I can download it from the Internet, I'm

18 sure.

19 Q. And you know what, I'm probably about your

20 age, maybe older, and we were left behind on

21 that.

22 A. In my case it was deliberate. I don't want

23 to go there.

24 Q. Yeah, when it started, when the computer

25 thing started in the 80's I deliberately


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1 avoided it. But I was in my own practice and

2 I was high enough that I didn't have to worry

3 about it and I just quit worrying about it.

4 A. Somebody came in and told me one day, Chief,

5 you're going to have to learn how to run the

6 computer and I said, let me get this right,

7 I'm the Chief and I've got a gun. Exactly

8 who do you think is going to make me do this?

9 Q. And that's exactly - I didn't have a gun, but

10 that's exactly what I said. No, we're too

11 old for it and unfortunately that's the way

12 it is. But I've got a lot stuff to cover so

13 do you want to make a note to yourself of

14 what I need? I'm going to give you a sheet

15 of my paper here.

16 A. I've got something here.

17 Q. Okay. If you would do that that would be

18 very helpful. And I really do understand your

19 position, believe me. And I don't want to be

20 a bum head, you know.

21 A. This has become such - I've been in this

22 position for so long that it's nothing new.

23 I've been in it from the beginning. The

24 Lieutenant that I'm talking about was an

25 active member of the Kiwanis, well liked by


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1 many people.

2 Q. Where is he at now?

3 A. For awhile I think he was doing security I

4 think for Walmart.

5 Q. Is he out of police work?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He won't get a job again will he?

8 A. No, no. What I said earlier, I've been at

9 this 43 years and the idea that we should be

10 above reproach based on according to some,

11 but it's into everything that I do.

12 Q. I believe it.

13 A. So when people lie I get upset about it.

14 That officer lied to me, he lied to the FBI,

15 he lied to the Personnel Board under oath. I

16 don't care if it's the Personnel Board or

17 not, that's called perjury. It's a Cardinal

18 sin. You can't do it. You give me a cop

19 without honor you're giving me somebody I

20 can't use. They're worthless to me. He

21 can't get on the witness stand anymore, he's

22 impeachable, so yes, he's done. My complaint

23 with what's going on here, you know, the

24 reality is that had this gentleman come

25 forward and said, you know what, 20 years ago


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1 I ran into these people, yeah, I knew what

2 they were doing, I should have stopped them

3 but I didn't, gosh, I'm sorry. The issue

4 would have simply gone away. But the issue

5 is not did he or did he not engage in

6 gambling. Frankly I don't know that anybody

7 gives a rip, including me. But when you

8 start lying about it today the issue is your

9 personal integrity, how you violated the

10 public trust. That is the only issue in my

11 mind today. Because what he did 20 years ago

12 statutes run, you know. The bureau could

13 have charged him with an ongoing criminal

14 enterprise. There's no statute on that.

15 They did not. That's up to them, that's not

16 my decision to make. What is important,

17 however, is that this gentleman has been

18 asked repeatedly did you or did you not and

19 he has repeatedly said no until that moment.

20 Q. You're referring to Exhibit #17?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I felt that was relevant as a start. I take

23 it that this interview by the radio station

24 is one step further than this?

25 A. That occurred a few days after this. If


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1 that's encroachment on the truth we get

2 closer and closer. Prior to this article, it

3 was just days before, where he held a press

4 conference and the press conference would be

5 verbatim what he said. He issued a

6 statement. He read it to the press conference

7 and he said I didn't know what was going on.

8 Q. Why don't you give me that, too.

9 A. I will try.

10 Q. You've got cops to direct around. You can do

11 it. Well, you know, at our age what else can

12 we do.

13 A. Do something because I'm staying working a

14 long time.

15 Q. Yes, I'm sorry to keep you here.

16 A. That's all right.

17 Q. I really appreciate your cooperation on this

18 and your understanding. It's a tough one.

19 A. Well, I'll be honest with you in this

20 particular interview other than my discussion

21 with Mark, I told you what I told Mark, I

22 have walked up right against the boundaries

23 in my mind. The officers that we sent over

24 there signed a document saying they're

25 swearing them to secrecy. They authorized


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1 them to confide certain information to me and

2 so when I'm reviewing that in any context I

3 struggle with it.

4 Q. This is going to be public, so yeah, I see

5 why. I see why. Your FBI guys are going to

6 say, well, that guy is close to infringement

7 on the boundaries. I understand the terrible

8 dilemma you're in, unfortunately the law

9 doesn't support that position but I certainly

10 understand where you're at.

11 A. Unless they're going to charge me with

12 violating - they don't want to come to my

13 office and start accusing me of it because

14 right now I'm not very happy with them

15 either.

16 Q. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that's true. Let's

17 change the topic a little bit. What is it

18 that you do with internal investigations on

19 City officials?

20 A. If we conduct the investigation a copy

21 remains with us. If it's outside our

22 department normally it will go over to

23 Personnel. And I don't know if the City

24 Attorney keeps a copy or not, I honestly

25 don't know that.


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1 Q. I understand that there's been some kind of

2 domestic violence charge against Rohr?

3 A. No, there was a report of domestic violence,

4 went down to his house, they had an argument,

5 his daughter picked up the phone, called 911

6 all upset and said some things that she

7 ultimately said I didn't actually see

8 anything. There was little hard feelings

9 between - she's a stepdaughter to Mark. We

10 determined there had been nothing but an

11 argument. They were yelling. There was no

12 charges. There are those who would ask me,

13 well, did he tell you not to do something.

14 You and I I think understand at this point

15 I'm not leaving my profession in shame by

16 being told to do something that's criminal.

17 If there had been probable cause for an

18 arrest he'd have gone to jail and I would

19 have stood the heat if that's what it took.

20 But there was none. At the time the officer

21 didn't even write a report. I made him write

22 a report. Had I not done that there never

23 would have been an issue with this, but I

24 made him write the report because the law

25 says that when you have a report of domestic


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1 violence you will write a report. I do what

2 the law says.

3 Q. Is that report available to me?

4 A. Sure. Yeah, they should have copies of it at

5 City Hall. Once that thing is done it's open

6 record.

7 Q. Do you have any other internal reports

8 concerning that matter?

9 A. None.

10 Q. So you believe that to be a total stinking

11 fish?

12 A. I completely trust the officers who were on

13 the scene. They interviewed --

14 Q. Still here?

15 A. Yes, they interviewed Mark and Lola

16 separately, they interviewed the children

17 separately, and they walked away absolutely

18 convinced it was nothing but an argument.

19 Q. Do I need to talk to those officers?

20 A. I don't know that you do. Their information

21 is reduced to writing.

22 Q. Can I have a copy of that?

23 A. Sure.

24 Q. If you would give me that I'd appreciate it.

25 Do you know anything about the complaints on


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1 Woolston being involved in these real estate

2 deals?

3 A. I heard that the first time when Councilman

4 Rosenberg brought it up at the end of a

5 budget hearing. I had never heard that

6 before.

7 Q. There had been no investigations or no

8 reports of that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I've heard that there's some questions

11 concerning the Bajjali, whatever it is --

12 A. Wallace-Bajjali.

13 Q. Yes, do you know anything about those

14 complaints or anything like that? No police

15 activity on any of that?

16 A. No, there is disagreement on Council as to

17 whether or not we should be involved in the

18 contract at all. Some of the people, well,

19 Mr. Scearce and Mr. Rosenberg in particular,

20 adamantly oppose the idea, albeit they voted

21 to sign the contract, and I never heard

22 anything at all about Mr. Woolston somehow

23 taking advantage of that until he called an

24 investigation regarding --

25 Q. That was the doctor that called for that?


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1 A. No, it was Mr. Woolston called for the

2 investigation involving Mr. Scearce, at a

3 subsequent meeting it was Dr. Rosenberg who

4 called for the investigation.

5 Q. I assume Rosenberg is on the other side?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is this Council pretty well divided on

8 groups?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So regardless what we do here we're going to

11 make one half of that group mad?

12 A. Pretty much.

13 Q. I probably won't be back here again.

14 A. You know, you might, because there are people

15 on that Council that I don't always agree

16 with, but I think have the right motivations

17 that they're doing the right thing.

18 Q. That's good to hear.

19 A. They don't always like what they hear, but I

20 don't know that they make it personal so they

21 may be thrilled with your investigation.

22 Q. Unbelievable. I'm pleased to hear that I

23 know that refreshment was still alive in the

24 world.

25 A. There are some. I wouldn't call every one of


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1 them necessarily, but most of them are making

2 an honest effort.

3 Q. That's pleasing to hear. Let me just review

4 a few more notes and I'll be able to turn you

5 loose. What the heck time is it? We're

6 approaching 7:00 o'clock. Let me ask you

7 this, Chief, just to follow-up. If there

8 were an impeachment I assume you'd testify as

9 you are here under oath that this criminal

10 activity that you know from your readings and

11 the FBI report that there's criminal activity

12 involved with Mr. Scearce. You'd be able to

13 say that?

14 A. If for no other reason than Mr. Scearce's

15 admission of it, yes.

16 Q. Anything whatsoever about Charlie Kuehn? Do

17 you know the name?

18 A. I know who is he.

19 Q. Anything about the Woolston stuff that's come

20 to your attention?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What about there's a lot of money on this

23 Bajjali thing, I mean we're talking about

24 potential upwards to 800 million dollars.

25 A. Right.


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1 Q. A lot of money. Is there anything in the way

2 that you've seen City Manager Rohr handle

3 with the matter that is in you somewhat

4 questionable? I'm not talking about taking

5 money, but I'm talking about maybe some

6 ethical considerations.

7 A. What I think the issue here is Mark Rohr, I

8 mean he's not a warm and fuzzy guy. You

9 probably figured that out.

10 Q. I have figured that out.

11 A. He's been accused of being bullying and

12 intimidating. I've never experienced that.

13 He is no nonsense. On the other hand I'm

14 pretty deep into my career to be intimidated

15 very much. And we get along well because he

16 gives me good, clear directions what he

17 wants, and then allows me to do what I've

18 been directed to do. If I don't I'm held

19 accountable. I'm okay with that. That's

20 what a department head does. He is a bit of

21 a paradox in that although he's not a warm

22 and fuzzy guy he is a true visionary. He has

23 an idea of what the community could be, he

24 has the staying power to be able to follow

25 the course of action to its completion. Our


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1 downtown is a reflection of that. He

2 actually seems to be able to garner resources

3 to achieve ends. I believe that Mark

4 sincerely believes in this Wallace-Bajjali

5 project, that through that conduit he can

6 turn this community into something more,

7 something better than it was, and in his mind

8 the result of that tornado will turn out to

9 be something good despite the horrible loss.

10 There are other members of the Council,

11 however, who don't share that vision, who

12 think that Wallace-Bajjali as a company is

13 all about gouging us for every nickel they

14 can get. And they believe that. Now I don't

15 know which one is right or wrong quite

16 frankly, but I can tell you that their views

17 on the subject are polarized and there is no

18 middle ground.

19 Q. There's nothing that you're hearing that

20 connotes double dealing, potential criminal

21 activity? Nothing that you're aware of as a

22 police officer?

23 A. And let me just assure you, if I thought that

24 Mike Woolston was guilty of criminal conduct

25 and I could prove it, if I thought the City


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1 Manager was guilty of criminal conduct and I

2 could prove it I would act on that

3 information.

4 Q. Let me ask you this question. And I'm really

5 a little fuzzy on this. I haven't really

6 bumped into a charter city except for

7 Hannibal. But do you believe that the Police

8 Chief would be better - I don't know if this

9 is a charter thing - would the Police Chief

10 be better subject to the Mayor as opposed to

11 the City Manager?

12 A. No, and let me tell you why. I'm not saying

13 that lightly. I was involved in an effort

14 through the Missouri Police Chief's

15 Association to create a just cause provision.

16 Having come from Oregon and Washington and

17 having spent, I've been a Chief or an Under

18 Sheriff for over 25 years, in that time I

19 have been directed on more than one occasion

20 by either a member or the Council, the City

21 Manager, or Mayor to do something that was

22 either illegal or unethical and in each

23 instance I declined to do that. But I had

24 the protection of just cause. Here in

25 Missouri frankly if I were to decline to do


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1 something even though it was unethical my job

2 was to do that.

3 Q. Absolutely.

4 A. And so just cause was an important provision

5 and it benefits everybody.

6 Q. You don't have a contract?

7 A. No, but then I never have had. I've always

8 my work product has been my job.

9 Q. Even Fire Chiefs have contracts.

10 A. I've never had one.

11 Q. Just cause, that's how you get it? You get

12 it in your contract?

13 A. Now state law, that's what that pro effort

14 was. There's a state law --

15 Q. So it gives value?

16 A. Yes. So what the City Attorney is concerned

17 with is whether or not via state law the

18 charter can be changed. He doesn't believe

19 the legislature has the authority to change a

20 charter city's provisions. The Attorney

21 General disagrees with him, but it's a

22 disagreement, it's a legal opinion. So

23 what's been proposed is that they move my

24 position under the direction of the Council,

25 thereby have a consensus of Council before I


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1 could be terminated.

2 Q. For cause?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Or period?

5 A. I think for cause. I guess for any reason.

6 Q. For period. Even without cause, you're

7 saying?

8 A. But the reason that this is a bad idea is

9 remember that the whole purpose of just cause

10 is so that the City Manager can't influence

11 me unduly. They can't make me do something

12 illegal and unethical at the risk of my job.

13 If you put the position under the guidance of

14 the Council what you've done is broaden the

15 undue influence. Now, every member of the

16 Council has the ability to try to influence

17 me. What should happen is we should simply

18 in the charter say the Police Chief can't be

19 discharged except for cause, and then the

20 Council becomes the appellate body which is

21 all --

22 Q. That's due process.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I've studied a lot of due process and I tell

25 you Missouri is - it's very unclear. I mean


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1 we know that some of these laundering cases

2 and some of that stuff is probably good law

3 for us, but where it's all going, you know,

4 it sounds to me like if you've got a process

5 and you don't follow it here you're going to

6 get reversed. Otherwise it's probably going

7 to be sustained. The courts don't want to

8 screw with it.

9 A. Today I think the issue of whether or not

10 that law applies to Joplin I guess is a legal

11 decision. It can be easily remedied in my

12 mind. It's simply amend the language of the

13 charter to include that small provision.

14 Q. I think it can be easily remedied by giving

15 the Police Chief a contract like most

16 districts, fire districts do with Fire

17 Chiefs.

18 A. Missouri has been an interesting experience

19 for me because when I started in 1971 old

20 Washington law made sense. Now I worked in

21 Oregon. Oregon never did make sense. That's

22 the weirdest place you'll ever go. But

23 Missouri reminds me of old Washington law.

24 But we do some things here that you don't see

25 elsewhere. Criminal traffic, as an example.


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1 It's a crime to speed. You can go to jail

2 for speeding in Missouri. Not out west. Here

3 there was a big deal being made about the

4 decriminalization of marijuana. It hasn't

5 been criminal in Oregon since 1978. It's

6 still illegal, but it's not criminal. So

7 here we arrest people for warrants because

8 they didn't pay their speeding ticket,

9 they'll go to jail. That doesn't make sense

10 to me at all. That's not good use of your

11 jail space. Missouri has a different way of

12 looking at things, and the whole issue of

13 just cause was wide open until just this last

14 session.

15 Q. Nobody ever said the guys that are running

16 the state law - they don't have an aptitude

17 test, you know, before they get that.

18 A. I've heard.

19 Q. I think that's pretty well true. Chief, I'd

20 love to discuss those things with you, but I

21 think that subject to your getting some of

22 that stuff that I asked for, I think pretty

23 much I'm going to be done with you, and I

24 appreciate your position right now. If there

25 is anybody in the FBI that - if this is all


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1 done, and I still think I need additional

2 step, I'd be willing to meet with somebody if

3 they would meet with us.

4 A. I have no idea. I know the newspaper has

5 called them, they have pled the City's case,

6 they've told them about the turmoil that

7 they've created, and they have not budged. I

8 simply don't know who you would talk to.

9 Nobody in the local office. These are

10 decisions being made by the bureau

11 headquarters, not by the local people. I

12 like and trust almost every agent that I

13 know, but as a bureaucracy the FBI is just -

14 Q. I know, I've experienced them. Well, I think

15 we're done. If something else pops in your

16 mind along the lines we've talked about we'll

17 discuss them at your convenience. There is I

18 guess somewhere a hotline if there's any

19 information that anybody talks to you that

20 they'd like to give to me direct them to the

21 hotline. I don't have the phone, but I know

22 there's a line set up somewhere. And that's

23 where we're headed. I think this Scearce

24 matter is not going to go any further than

25 your information from what I can see, so we


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1 either have enough or we don't.

2 A. The information that he's referring to, you

3 know, it's true that I gave those bullet

4 points to the City Manager, but I don't

5 think, frankly, they're the issue at hand. I

6 don't frankly believe that anybody cares what

7 he did or didn't do 20 years ago. I think

8 the issue at hand is what I've told you. He

9 has made it very clear on the air that he

10 knew the stuff was going on, it was a

11 criminal act. And he has said repeatedly I

12 didn't know anything about it, and now he's

13 saying he is. That's the issue. And,

14 frankly, that has nothing, except indirectly,

15 to do with the FBI investigation. Those are

16 factual things that he has stated. That's

17 not information that I would tell you is in

18 an FBI file, I'm telling you what he said.

19 Those are the issues. I just happen to have

20 a lot of other detail that certainly supports

21 that, but I don't know how much more you go

22 than a confession.

23 Q. Well, always has to be facts with a

24 confession that are otherwise provable. And,

25 you know, maybe we have enough. I don't


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1 know. Chief, thank you for your time and I

2 appreciate loaning me one of your guys. If

3 you can keep me with one guy or two guys or

4 something and make it consistent. This guy

5 is a great guy, so - and let me tell you

6 something. When I did Hannibal I had a crazy

7 lawyer on the other side - we're going to go

8 off the record.

9

10 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

11

12

13


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 5th

day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Roberts, Lane | Testimony transcript

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Transcript of Roberts, Lane | Testimony transcript