12 HIGH TIMES November 1991

Robert Anton WilsonBased on Robert Anton Wilson's incredible and varied

career, it's hard to know what to expect when you meet him.This is a guy who spent five years in the '60s as an editor ofPlayboy, then went on to coauthor (with Robert Shea) the

mind-boggling Illuminalusl (cut into a trilogy by itspublisher), got his PhD in psychology, wrote the 66new-age"

classic Cosmic Trigger,, collaborated on two books withTimothy Leary, wrote a whole bunch more on his own,released a punk-rock album, and toured as a stand-up

comedian. Robert Anton Wilson has expanded as manyminds with his books as all the Sandoz acid

ever manufactured.A small surprise, then, to finally see this white-bearded,

Buddha-like man dressed in the same casual suit that yourcollege physics professor wore-a slightly wacky Buddha, tobe sure, cracking jokes and reciting Monty Python routinesin a pleasantly gruff Brooklyn accent. Wilson's conversation

is startlingly like his books, his words tying together anamazing diversity of facts, theories and punchlines in a way

that gently prods at your sense of reality.Oh well, as Wilson's readers know well enough, it's always

fun to watch as your preconceptions are blownto little, tiny bits.

by Philip H. Farber

HIGH TIMES: Who do you think isresponsible for the "War onDrugs?"Robert Anton Wilson: I suppose theEli Lilly Cornpany.HT: How do you figure that?RAW: The War on Drugs is chiefly a

war on pot, according to Judge Sweet.Eighty-five percent of the drug budgetis going into pursuing pot-smokers.They're trying to drive pot off themarket because the CIA is a makins a

big profit out of the cocaine business,and Eli Lilly provides the materialsthat the Colombians need to makecocaine out ofthe coca. So they wantto keep the cocaine business going. Bythe way, do you know who owns EliLilly?HT: No, I don't.RAW: The Quayle family owns a

large part and George Bush owns alarge part.HT: How much do vou think the US

government is involved in maintain-ing that supply of materials fromEli Lilly to Colombia?RAW: Well, the govemment isn'tdoing anything to stop Eli Lilly tiomsending those materials down toColombia and there's lots of caseswhere the CIA has been caught red-handed laundering drug rnoney. Theywere running a bank in Florida a fewyears ago-the World FinanceCorporation-which was mainly a

HIGH TIMES November 1991 13

cocainc-money laundronrat. And lhcnthcrc was a bank irr Australia whichthc CIA was runrliltg. which was laurt-clcring hcroin nloncv IThe NuganHantl Bank: sec Jan. '91 HTl. Most ol'the ir banks wcrc tic(l in with the SwissAlpinc Bank in thc Bahanras. whichwts run by Robcrto Calvi. ancl

Archbishop l\'lalcinkus. so thcy couklrun the money through thc VaticanBartk. rvhere it lcaves no record.HT: I'r'e noticed that a lot of the so-

called antidrug propaganda isphrased in a strange, negative fash-ion-sort of reverse suggestion. Forinstance, "Keep on smoking crackand you'll end up with nothing,"could tre taken as a suggestion tokeep smoking crack. Do you thinkthis is deliberate, or are the.v.iuststupid?RAW: Nevcr unclcreslimale' thc stupid-ity ol'thc e-slablishrncnt in this counlry.Thc stupidity ol' thc cstablishnrcnt

approaches to rnl llilty.HT: The executive branch of thegovernment, the CIA and theVatican Bank are pretty monolithicinstitutions to be working against.Do you think there is much chanceof cannabis being legalized inAmerica?RAW: Ycs. bc'causc lhere arc nrorcand morc pcoplc bc'conting uu'arc ol'the valuablc propcrlics ol'henrp. thanksto Jack Hercr and a lot ol'othcrs-butcspecially Jack Hcrcr. The're arc rnorcand more pcoplc who know that wccoulcl be running our cars on hcnrp oilancl not polluting thc air the way thatpctrolcunr pollutcs the air. A lot ol'pcoplc know that wc can print bookson hemp papcr. ancl that u'ill slowrlown thc tlcstruction ol'the lirrcsts. Alot of lircts like that arc beconring nrorewiclely known. lt's an uphill btttlcagainst clcception. grcecl and igno-rancc-but il's not hope less.

HT: Are there some n'a1s to do thisthat .vou think haven't been t'ull.vexplored, but can be?RAW: I think we shoulcl stucly tltcsarnizclat mctho(ls that were usccl in theSovict Union to translnit inlirrnration*hcn tltc ccnsorship uas so striclthcrc. We'vc got compuler networks.that's one avcnuc lor distributinginlbrnration. Mcanwhilc. we do haveulternativc rlclio. We have Pacil-ica anclNational Public Ratlio. where a lot ol'inlirrnration gcts out that can't gct intothc rna.jor rncdia. I think nrorc andnrore peoplc arc trwlrc of that whilclistening to thosc raclio stations.HT: We've been talking about hempbeing legalized. What do you think isthe possibilit.v of an.v ps.vchedelicbeing legalized or even just acceptedb1'the public?RAW: I'nr bcginnin-u to think thiltthcrc's a real clllrncc that rescarch willhc lcgalize'd again. Thcrc are nrorc lndnrorc pcoplc in thc psychothcrapcuticprof'cssions who arc speaking out. lntlit has bee n rclcgalizecl tirr resc'archpurp()scs irr scvcnrl cotrnlries inEuropc: in Switzerlancl. Gcrnranl andHollantl. anrong othcrs. There is de l'i-rritcly a lnovclncnt toward. at least.lcgalizing rcscarclr again. lt cloes seen.r.

with the passing 0l'linrc. that nlorc andrnorc peoplc cln scc how stupicl it is tolirrbitl scicrrlil'ie rL'scurch irt an urcuwherc thc rcscarch that was clonc thirtyvcars ago \\'its so pronlstn,g.

Therc was cvitlencc. in the c'arlysixties whcn rcscarch was lcsal. that

Return of the Cosmic Triggerman

lflosmic Trigger,Volume I1(New Falcon Publications) is a largely-

f autobiographicalcompound ofanecdotalinsights, brilliantly-odd-\./ ball observations and stunningly-right-on accusations, eccentricallyfused into a book that summarizes Robert Anton Wilson's view of theworld and the Cosmos. A great many readers know Wilson only for hisIlluminatus! books and other works of fiction; some few others may alsoknow him for his nonfiction works. which range with a Renaissance man'sease through philosophy, physics, occultism, cosmology and histor.v. TheCosmic Trigger books might be considered the key to all his works.

You can yes, most definitely, appreciate this book without having readVofume I, which was first published back in '77 (and after being out ofprint for awhile, is now available again in a New Falcon edition). There arerevelations here that made me sit up straight and blurt. "Holy shit! Thosesons of bitchesl" Revelations about the Vatican's criminal relationshipwith the Mafia, the CIA and South American drug dealers; about a secretvariant of the Knights of Malta whose members are some of the world'smost powerful and evil menl about the long-term consequences of theCIA's recruitment of NAZI MURDERERS after WWII; and about how allof the above ties together. This is not llluminafzsl-style satire, but verybelievable, chillingly-documented real-life data which neatly sums up someof the world's darkest conspiracies in but a few breathtakingly-lucidpages.

Here too, Wilson fans will get a ver.v intimate portrait of Wilson's life-and some real insight into the inner workings of this artist and visionary.Although he consciously discards a conventional autobiographical struc-ture, preferring a kind of holographically-cellular arrangement ofsparkling set pieces, CT2 ties together very neatly-and does indeed riff offthe first volume. In both books Wilson talks frankly of the use ofpsychedelics and marijuana, and continues to act as a convincing advocateof their intelligent and cautious use. But much that Wilson trumpeted inthe first CT, is not taken up here-perhaps because some of his moreextravagant projections failed to come about. He was rather optimistic inhis prediction firr the development of immortality by the '90s, and theestablishment of an O'Neill-type space colony. He felt we were on the vergeof making contact with interplanetary intelligences, in accordance with thedevelopment of an innate system of intelligence circuits that would eventu-ally link us with the higher beings of the Cosmos. He was heavily intoAleister Crowley and Timothy Leary. He still resonates with both thosesages-but they are far less a presence in CT2. Nevertheless, the underly-ing concepts established in the first volume are still shining through. Thereis indeed a powerful intellectual continuity here-and sometimes itachieves an arc of connections which make one feel ghostly fingers hover-ing over one's own inner Cosmic Trigger....

-John Shirley

(Order Cosmic Trigger ll for $12.95 + $1.48 postage from: New FalconPublications,7025 E. First Ave., Suite 5, Scottsdale, AZ 8525L)

14 HIGH TIMES Novembel 1991

LSD was useful in the treatment ofalcoholism, schizophrenia-all sorts ofpsychological problems. Leary took abunch of convicts. and when he wasthrough with his therapy. the over-whelming majority of them never com-mitted another crime for the rest oftheir lives. And for as far as the follow-up studies followed them, they werestill law-abiding citizens-the mostastonishing feat in the history ofbehavioral science! There was all theevidence that people leam languagesfaster with acid. And there was theresearch on religious experiences, likethe Good Friday Experiment.

All of that was so promising thatit's hard to believe that we can returnto the days of the Holy Inquisition, andthat promising areas of scientificresearch can be forbidden indefinitely.Especially, as I said, when it's begin-ning to open up in Europe.HT: You mentioned the GoodFriday Experiment-what was that?RAW: That was an experiment in theearly sixties where twenty theologystudents were in a chapel on GoodFriday and ten of them got psilocybinand ten of them got placebos. The tenwho got psilocybin all had mysticalexperiences of the highest quality.HT: What kind of research is beingdone in Europe, that you know of?RAW: Mostly, it's clinical. All thatI've read about is just that therapistsare allowed to use it in the treatment oftheir patients.HT: Is there a way that you'd like tosee psychedelics used by this society?RAW: My personal opinion, based onwhat was done in the sixties, and whathas been done underground-in a clan-destine way since-is that it's proba-bly the wonder drug of the twentiethcentury, much more than penicillin.Intelligently used, acid has nearly infi-nite potential.HT: Do you think that a resurgencein psvchedelic use now would pro-duce the same kind of cultural fer-ment that it did in the sixties-bringing ideas up to the surface?RAW: Undoubtedly. The main effectof psychedelics is to break down con-ditioned and imprinted circuits in thebrain. You start using your brain innew ways. which nreans new impres-sions, new perceptions and new ideas.HT: How can clandestine experi-menters with psychedelics approachthese experiences?RAW: It should be approached seri-

ously, with a religious attitude or anattitude of philosophical inquiry.HT: What do you mean by a reli-gious attitude?RAW: An expectation that your wholeworld is going to collapse and thatyou're going to be rebom. If you don'texpect that, if you think you're justhaving fun, you're likely to have a ter-rible shock which can tiighten you.HT: That kind of experience mightbe frightening to a lot of people.RAW: It is. It causes acute paranoia in

t'The maineffect of

psychedelicsis to

break downconditioned

and imprintedcircuits inthe brain.tt

politicians who've never used it, andit's done some damage to people whohave tried it. If they're not preparedproperly.HT: Do you think electronic highs-light and sound machines, or electro-magnetic headsets-<an fulfill someof the same uses?RAW: Not yet. but I tlrink we're get-ting closer to that all the time. I expectwithin two or three years we will haveelectronic equivalents. There are dif-ferent machines that are approaching itfrom difl'erent angles. I don't knowwhere the breakthrough will occur.There are so many different types ofbrain-altering machines that someoneis going to come up with one that actsjust like LSD.

HT: You sometimes talk about theevolutionary value of stupidity inconnection with the development ofthese machines....RAW: Yeah, I've often wondered whythere's so much stupidity in the world.It's got to be serving some function.Nothing survives a long-term evolutionunless it has a function. And I finallydecided that the function of stupidity isto force the intelligent to become moreintelligent. The lnquisition vastlyaccelerated science, and I think that theNew Inquisition that we're currentlyliving through has inspired all sorts ofcreative work that wouldn't have hap-pened if LSD had remained legal.People wouldn't have been searchinginto so many alternatives if they'd hadLSD available tbr legal research.HT: In your recent novel, l,lature'sGod, you've got these great sceneswith George Washington smokingsome herb in his campaign tent. Isthis purely fiction, or do you thinkthat cannabis really was influentialin the founding of the United States?RAW: Oh, George was a pothead!That was documented by Dr. MichaelAldrich back in the sixties. I quote a

lot of the documentation in two of myprevious books, in one ofthe appen-dices to llluminatus!, and in Sex andDrugs [Playboy Press, '73].HT: Is there something inherent incannabis that had people thinkingabout independence?RAW: You know, the first hemp lawwe had in this country obliged fannersto grow it. Hemp was considered sovaluable that they wanted everybodywho owned a farm to grow some.Yeah, hemp played a major role inAmerican history. The Constitutionwas written on hemp paper. TheDeclaration of Independence was writ-ten on hemp. All ol our early shipswere built largely out of hemp.HT: What about the buzz itself? Didthat altered state affect the thoughtand events that were going on at that

. time?RAW: Yeah. Pancho Villa was anotherpothead. I think if you compare themilitary campaigns of Washington andVilla, you'll see that they were bothinfluenced by marijuana. They wcrevery nonlinear, that's why they keptgoing so long against such impossibleodds. The British were thinking in alinear, Aristotelian way, andWashington was thinking in a

nonlinear way. That's how he wore

HIGH TIMES November 1991 t5

them down over six years.HT: Do you think there is a way toapproach the headspace of GeorgeWashington for the purpose of gain-ing individual autonomy, whichseems to be the present battle?RAW: There's a Sufiword, that I don'tremember, for the manwho drinks wine insecret and doesn't getcaught. Jesus said, "Beas harmless as dovesand as subtle as ser-pents." In a mad world,one has to pretend to beat least partly mad inorder to pass as normal,Or, as J.R. "Bob" Dobbs says-Praise"Bob"-"Act like a dumb shit andthey'll treat you like an equal."HT: Do you think that the rise ofstrange new religions-like theChurch of the SubGenius [who"worship" J.R. 6'Bob" Dobbsl-ishaving some effect on the culture?RAW: When I first started talkingabout these deliberately surrealist reli-gions ten years ago, most people hadnever heard of them. Now when I talkabout them, people in the audience

have already heard of them, and theyyell "Praise 'Bob"'and "Hail Eris" andthings like that. I was at MIT recentlyand I saw in one of the men's rooms,written on the wall, "'Bob' is the onlyhope now." So, definitely, these reli-

gions are impacting all over our cul-ture. There was an Atari computer awhile back that, when you first tried touse the printer, it printed out a hundred"Bob" heads before it would do any-thing else.HT: Was that intentional or a virus?RAW: That was somebody at Atari.Atari gave up trying to find out whodid it and just sent a letter of explana-tion to people who complained. Peoplewere writing in and saying, "Why is

my computer printing out pictures ofHugh Hefner?" I never realized "Bob"looked like Hugh Hefner until I readthat.HT: Is the Discordian Church, suchas it ever was, still at large?

RAW: Oh, it's veryactrve.HT: What's the evi-dence of that?RAW: The ChaosComputer Club in

y-they infil-ffated the wholeAmerican defense [com-puterl system.HT: Are thereDiscordians active to

that extent in the USA?RAW: One hears rumors.

IRobert Anton Wilson's latest booksinclude a novel, Nature's God(RoclNAL; the third installment in theHistorical Illuminatus Chronicles), andtwo nonfiction efforts, QuantumPsychology (New Falcon) and CosmicTrigger lI (see review). A fourth novelin the Historical Illuminatus series,The World Turned Upside Down, rspresently in the works.lO

"...Lthink that the NewInquisition that we're currentlyliving through has inspired all

sorts of creative work thatwouldn't have happened if LSI)

had remained legal."

TI{ E R.EA, I-II5TMort Sahl once called The Realist "probably the most vital publication in the United States." That was back in 1963. And

now it's being published again. Same editor-Paul Krassner-and same editorial policy.Ihe laboos may have changed, but irreverence is slill our only sacred cow.

The Realistis a unique newsletler ol social and political satire.We also publish investigative journalism. Howeuer, we never put labels 0n s0 as not t0 deprive readers 0f the plea-

sure of discerning fotthemselves whethel an ailicle is actuallytrue or merely a logicalextension olthe truth.0ut lasl 5 issues-still available-feature the lollowing:

tRoberl Anton Wilson covers lhe Firct International 0rgasmGonference

*Why Andrew Dice Clay ls No Lenny Bruce*The Role of Richard Nixon and George Bush in lhe

Assassinalion of President Kennedy*The Psychedelic Gurus Reunion*Michael and Me-the making of a film by Roger Smlth show-

ing General Motors' side of the story*A hilarious report on the Populal Culture Convention*LAPD Ghief Daryl Gates' Resignalion Speech, as leaked to

Harry Shearer-his column that the Los Angeles Times relused topublish *The Goma Diet Cookbook

'0n lhe Bus Again-Ken Kesey's latest prank*Why the Administration deliberately lried to throw Noriega's

trial*The Safe Sex Revolution: Jack-and-Jin-Olf Pailies*The perlormance arlist who used sluffed rats in a special

conslruction of The Lasl Supper*The President's secrel leller lo Saddam Hussein*Dialogues between Gellmates Lyndon LaRouche and Jim

Bakker

*Gomputerized Kiddie Porn*The underground women's mouemenl rising up lrom the

chauvinisl sands of Saudi-Arabia*Behind lhe rash ol gerbil jokes*Was it a conspiracy by the Disney empire that brought about

lhe strange dealh of Muppet-master Jim Henson?*A debate between Spike Lee and Tom Wolfe*Marijuana and the American Bar Associalion-by Eugene

(formerly "Dr. Hip") Schoenfeld, M.D.*How lhe Second Goming will take place-on TV, of coursetA survey 0f standup comics on theil iokes about the

McMartin notguilty verdicl-as requesled by parents of the vic-lims

*Fetal Attraclion: how lwo conceplual arlisls-one anti-abor-tion, the other pro-choice-used embryonic tissue in their work

*Plus our regular roundup of bizane news ilems- You can have those 5 issues lor $10-or free with your sub-scription. Just send $23 for 12 issues. Be sure to mention this ad.

Also available: The (Almosl) Unpublished Lennv Bruce-acollection ol his columns and arlicles-$10 including postage.

The Realist, Box 1230, Venice, CA 90294x

16 HIGH TlllES ]{ovembet l99l