GlobalFeminismsComparativeCaseStudiesof

Women’sActivismandScholarship

BRAZIL

MariadaPenha

Interviewer:SueannCaulfield

Fortaleza,BrazilFebruary2015

UniversityofMichiganInstituteforResearchonWomenandGender1136LaneHallAnnArbor,MI48109‐1290

Tel:(734)764‐9537

E‐mail:um.gfp@umich.eduWebsite:http://www.umich.edu/~glblfem

©RegentsoftheUniversityofMichigan,2015

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MariadaPenha,bornin1945inFortaleza,Ceará,isaleaderinthestruggleagainstdomesticviolenceinBrazil.Victimizedbyherhusbandin1983,whotwicetriedtomurderherandleftheraparaplegic,shewasthefirsttosuccessfullybringacaseofdomesticviolencetotheInter‐AmericanCommissiononHumanRights.Ittookyearstobringthecasetopublicattention.In2001,thecaseresultedintheinternationalcondemnationofBrazilforneglectandforthesystematicdelaysintheBrazilianjusticesystemincasesofviolenceagainstwomen.Brazilwasobligedtocomplywithcertainrecommendations,includingachangetoBrazilianlawthatwouldensurethepreventionandprotectionofwomeninsituationsofdomesticviolenceandthepunishmentoftheoffender.Thefederalgovernment,underPresidentLuladaSilva,andinpartnershipwithfiveNGOsandanumberofimportantjurists,proposedabillthatwasunanimouslypassedbyboththeHouseandtheSenate.In2006,FederalLaw11340wasratified,knownasthe“MariadaPenhaLawonDomesticandFamilyViolence.”MariadaPenha’scontributiontothisimportantachievementforBrazilianwomenledhertoreceivesignificanthonors,including"TheWomanofCourageAward”fromtheUnitedStatesin2010.1ShealsoreceivedtheCrossoftheOrderofIsabellatheCatholicfromtheSpanishEmbassy,andin2013,theHumanRightsAward,whichisconsideredthehighestawardoftheBrazilianGovernmentinthefieldofhumanrights.DaPenhahasspokenthroughoutBrazilandabroadinlecturesandseminars,andhasappearedininterviewsonradioandtelevision,aswellasinnewspapersandmagazines.SheworkstobuildawarenessamonglegalprofessionalsandinsocietyingeneralontheimportanceofproperapplicabilityoftheMariadaPenhaLaw,andalsoonthequestionofaccessibilityforpeoplewithdisabilities.MariadaPenhaisfounderofthe"MariadaPenhaInstitute–IMP,"2anNGOthataimstoeducateandbuildawarenessamongwomenabouttheirrightsandtosupportthegoalsoftheMariadaPenhaLaw.SueannCaulfieldisAssociateProfessorofHistoryattheUniversityofMichigan,whereshewastheformerdirectoroftheCenterforLatinAmericanandCaribbeanStudiesandcurrentlyheadstheBrazilInitiativeSocialSciencesCluster.ShespecializesinthehistoryofmodernBrazil,withemphasisongenderandsexuality.ShehaswonawardsandfellowshipsfromtheFulbrightCommission,NationalEndowmentfortheHumanities,andAmericanCouncilofLearnedSocieties.HerpublicationsincludeInDefenseofHonor:Morality,Modernity,AndNationInEarlyTwentieth‐CenturyBrazil,theco‐editedvolumeHonor,Status,andLawinModernLatinAmericanHistory,andvariousarticlesongenderandhistoriography,familylaw,race,andsexualityinBrazil.Hercurrentresearchfocusesonfamilyhistorywithafocusonpaternityandlegitimacyintwentieth‐centuryBrazil.SheisparticularlyinterestedinquestionsofhumanrightsinLatinAmerica,andhas1http://brazil.usembassy.gov/events/u.s.‐ambassador‐honors‐maria‐da‐penha‐with‐the‐2010‐woman‐of‐courage‐award‐in‐brazil(accessed1/11/16).2http://www.mariadapenha.org.br/(accessed1/11/16).

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participatedinanumberofworkshops,cross‐countryteachingprojects,andexchangesaroundtopicsofsocialjusticeandsocialaction.TheGlobalFeminismsProjectisacollaborativeinternationaloralhistoryprojectthatexaminesfeministactivism,women'smovements,andacademicwomen'sstudiesinsitesaroundtheworld.HousedattheUniversityofMichigan,theprojectwasstartedin2002withagrantfromtheRackhamGraduateSchool.ThevirtualarchiveincludesinterviewsfromwomenactivistsandscholarsfromBrazil,China,India,Nicaragua,Poland,andtheUnitedStates.OurcollaboratorsinBrazilareattheLaboratóriodeHistóriaOraleImagem‐UFF(theLaboratoryofOralHistoryandImagesattheFederalFluminenseUniversityinRiodeJaneiro,LABHOI)andNúcleodeHistória,MemóriaeDocumento(theCenterforHistory,Memory,andDocumentationattheFederalStateUniversityinRiodeJaneiro,NUMEM).TheBrazilinterviewswereconductedwithsupportfromtheThirdCenturyLearningInitiativeandtheBrazilInitiative(CenterforLatinAmericanandCaribbeanStudies),bothattheUniversityofMichigan,FAPERJ(TheResearchSupportFundinRiodeJaneiro),andCNPq(TheNationalCouncilforScientificandTechnologicalDevelopmentinBrazil).

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Keywords:domesticviolence,humanrights,Brazil,law,civilsocietySueannCaulfield:WearetalkingwithMariadaPenha,themostwell‐knownleaderinthemovementagainstdomesticviolenceinBrazilandalsointheworld.Asanimportantacknowledgement,alawwaspassedandnamedafterher,Law11.340of20063.MariadaPenhaisresponsibleforasignificantchangeinthepoliticalandjuridicalconsciousness,notonlyinBrazilbutinallcountries.ShewastheauthorofapetitionagainstBrazil,madeattheInter‐AmericanCommissionforHumanRights,4oftheOAS.5ThiswasthefirsttimethattheCommissionaddressedthesubjectofdomesticviolence,andtheaccomplishmentofMariadaPenhainthisforumresultedinthecreationoffundamentallawsinnationalrights,andalsointernational.SoIwouldliketostarttheconversationtalkingabitaboutyourpersonallife.WhatwasyourchildhoodlikehereinFortaleza6,asagirl,asateenager,asayoungprofessional?Andspecifically,howdidtherelationsortheideologyofgenderaffectyou,growinguphereinFortaleza,howwasithereforyouinFortaleza?MariadaPenha:Well,Iwasraised,Iwasborninatime…70yearsago,right,sinceIwasborn.Exactly,becauseIjustturned70lastSunday.SC:Oh,happybirthday!MP:Oh,thankyou.Atthattime,theissueofgenderwasveryrigid.Thewomen,mymother,bychoice,stoppedworkingtotakecareofthekids.Wearefivesisters.AndIwasalreadyraisedwiththeideaofhavingaprofession,aprofession,andIwastrainedinpharmacologyandbiochemistry.SC:Allfive?MP:Allfiveofusfinishedcollege.Mysecondsisterisadoctor.Thethirdisanarchitect.Thefourthandfiftharedentists.Mydadwasadentist.SC:Wasthatcommonatthetime?

3MariadaPenhaisaBrazilianwomanwhoisknownforherpartnershipwiththeCourtofHumanRightstotackleBrazil’slaxantidomesticviolencelaws.In1983,shewasshotbyherhusband,whichleftherdependentonawheelchairfortherestofherlife.Hethentriedtoelectrocuteher.Hewasnotprosecuted.DaPenhasoughthelpfromtheCourtofHumanRightswhosuccessfullybroughtattentiontoBrazil’slackofeffectivenessinprosecutingaggressorsandprotectingsurvivors.TheBraziliangovernmentpassedthe“MariadaPenhaLawonDomesticandFamilyViolence”in2006.Formoreinformation,seehttp://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2011/8/maria‐da‐penha‐law‐a‐name‐that‐changed‐society(accessed12/11/15).4TheInter‐AmericanCommissionforHumanRightsis“aprincipalandautonomousorganoftheOrganizationofAmericanStates(“OAS”)whosemissionistopromoteandprotecthumanrightsintheAmericanhemisphere”(http://www.oas.org/en/iachr/mandate/what.asp).5OrganizationofAmericanStates.http://www.oas.org/en/default.asp(accessed12/11/15).6FortalezaisthecapitaloftheBrazilianstateofCeará,locatedinNortheastern.

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MP:Yes,forourgenerationyes.Mycolleagues,Ihadmanyclassmates,themajoritywerewomen,fromcollege.SC:Fromyourpharmacologystudies?MP:Yes,frompharmacology.Andwestillgettogetheronceayear.So,inmyclass,allthewomeninmyclassworked,graduated,andcreatedaprofessionallifeforthemselves.Thesamewithme.SowhenIwenttoSãoPaulototakeagraduatecourseattheFacultyofPharmacology,Parasitology,andClinicalAnalysis,that’swhereImetmyaggressor,7whowasaColumbianstudent,whohadafellowshipattheUniversityofSãoPauloinEconomics.Imethimthroughcommonfriends,webecamefriends,hewasapersonwhowasverywell‐likedbythegroup,averyhelpfulperson.Andthenwestartedtogoout.Wegotmarried,ourfirstdaughterwasborninSãoPaulo.ThiswasatthetimewhenIfinishedmymasters.IcametoFortalezatogobacktomyjob,workingintheStateSocialSecurityInstituteinCeará.8AndatthemomentthathereceivedhiscitizenshipasaBrazilian,thenheshowedhistruecolors.ThenIdidn’trecognizehimbecausehebecameanextremelyviolentperson,uncompromising,evenwithhisowndaughterswhowerechildren.Soatthistime,fromthe70’stothe‘80s,thewomen’smovementinBrazilstartedtoraiseawarenessaboutcasesofmurderofwomen.Whenthewomenwantedtoseparate,didn’twanttocontinuewiththerelationship,theyweremurdered.AndthiswasthetimewhenIwasalmostmurdered.IwasasleepwhenIheardaloudnoiseinmyroom.ItriedtomoveandIcouldn’tandIthought,so,Marcohaskilledme.Atthatpointtheneighbors,whosawthatIwasseverelyinjured,begantotakecareofme.Andhetoldastorythataburglarhadcomeintoourhouse,andtheneighborsfoundmeseatedonthefloorwithrippedpajamasandaropearoundmyneck.Soheusedthepretenseofanattack,sayingthathehadconfrontedfourburglars.Becauseofthis,IspentfourmonthsinthehospitalandwhenIcamehome,itwaslikeIwasinaprivateprison.Upuntilthispoint,thestorythatprevailedwasthattherewasarobbery,andIthought…Iwasevensurprisedtoseehislackofsensitivitytomysituation.Hewasthejustthesameasbefore.Sohecontinuedwithhisnastiness,withthekids,andinthisshortperiodoftime,moreorlessfifteendays.ThenIsufferedasecondattemptofmurderinanelectricshower9thathepurposelydamaged.SoinfifteendaysImanagedtogetadocumentforalegalseparationthatallowedmetoleavehomewithoutlosingcustodyofmydaughters.SC:Whenwasthat?MP:In1983.SC:Goingbacktotwosubjectsyoumentioned–thefirstoneis,whenyoumarriedhim,youalreadyhadadaughter,andtheotherwasborninFortaleza?7DaPenhaisreferringtothemanwhocouldbecomeherhusband,andthenheraggressor,i.e.thepersonwhotriedtokillher.8CearáisastateintheNortheastregionofBrazil.9Inanelectricshower,or“chuveiroelétrico,”thewaterissuppliedbyanelectricwaterheaterrightneartheshower,whichiscommoninmanypartsofLatinAmerica.Contactwithitwhileitisrunningcancauseelectrocution. 

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MP:No,I….allthreeofthegirlsarehisdaughters.OnewasbornwhenIarrivedinFortaleza.TheyoungestwasborninFortaleza.SC:SothefirsttwowereborninSãoPaulo?MP:No,thesecondone,Ihadjustarrivedhere,andshewasbornhere.ThiswasrightwhenIcame,Iwasalreadypregnant.Sotwowerebornhere,butwiththethird,IgotpregnanthereinFortaleza.SC:Sowouldyousaythatthefamilystructure,thedivisionoflabor,wasverytraditional,orwasitalreadybetterdivided,moreegalitarian?Howwastheeverydaylifeofcooking,takingcareofkids,etc.?MP:No,no,withregardstothisitwas,theresponsibilitywascompletelymine.WhenwelivedinSãoPaulobeforetheywereborn,wedividedthetasks,because,really,thereweren’tanytasks.Becausewhenit’sjustacouple,thetasksareminimal,right?Butafterthebirth,yes,everythingwasonme,Iwasresponsibleforeverything.Evenmanytimesherefusedtolistentome,ashappenedforexamplewhenoneofmydaughtersspentthenightwithbreathingproblems,inacrisis,veryhoarse,andallthat.AndIwasaskinghimtotakemetothehospital.Andhesimplydidn’ttakeus.Wehadtowaitformorningtocome,andthenImanagedtotakehertothedoctor.SC:Andatthistimeyouconsideredthedivision,alloftheworkofraisingyourdaughters,andcaringforthem,asyourresponsibility,evenwhileyouwerealsoworkingasaprofessional,thatseemednormalatthetime?Waseveryonedividinginthisway,oritwasalready…MP:No,Itookover,Ianticipatedit,becauseashewasaveryviolentperson,itwasn’trecommendedthathetakecareofthekids.SoItookthatover,toprotectthem.SC:Anddoyourememberatthistime,becauseyousaidthattherewerealreadyoccurrences,thatitwascomingoutinthenewspapers,aboutthemurdersofwomen.Doyourememberifatthetimeyoufeltattractedtoorgotinformationaboutthefeministmovement,inthe‘70s,right,the‘60sor‘70s?MP:Well,the‘70sto‘80smoreorless.SC:Whendidyougotocollege?MP:Ifinishedin‘66.SC:SoyougotmarriedinSãoPauloinwhatyear?MP:‘76Iguess.

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SC:Sotheninthe‘70sinSãoPaulo,thebeginningofthefeministmovement.Wereyouinterestedinthismovement?Wereyouawareofit?MP:No,no.Whatcalledmyattention…themovementpersedidn’t,butwhenthepressstartedtocoverthesemanifestations,youknow?SC:Againstthedictatorship?10MP:Exactly,soIfoundaboutthis,andtwofactsstayedwithme,theygotmyattention:thefirstwastheDocaStreetcase,11whichwasinAngradosReis.12Thiswasanupperclasspersonwhocommittedamurder,andhejustifieditwithviolenceandemotion,right,becauseshedidn’twanttostayintherelationship.AndtheotheronewasElianedeGrammont,13thissinger…herhusbandwasLindomar,14thesinger,right,whoalsodidn’taccepttheseparation.Startingwiththismoment–SC:Hegotthecustodyofthekids,didn’the?MP:Idon’tknow.SC:Ithinkhedid.MP:So,fromthoseexamplesthatIsaw,ifIhadn’tseenthoseexamplesmaybeIwouldhavebeenmoredaring.Butduringtheseevents,Iputmyselfintheirshoes,andIthought,Idon’thavetheresourcestofacealitigiousseparation.SoItriedtohaveaconversationandtalktohim:“Look,wedon’tlivetogetherwellanymore,youdon’tlikemeanymore,becauseifyoudid,youwouldn’ttreatmethisway.Sowhydon’tweseparate?”Andhealwaysrefused,right.Heeven,ontheeveofattemptingtokillme,askedmetotakeoutalifeinsurancepolicy.15ThenIsaid,what’sthatfor?“No,I’mthinkingaboutourdaughters.Getinsurancebecauseifanythinghappenstoyou,thegirlswillbealright,andifithappenstome,youwillbe….yes,comfortable.”AndIsaidno.Butthissixthsense16thatwehave,youknow?Anothertime,veryclosetothe[attack]date–Iactuallyhavethisdocument–very10ThedictatorshipreferstothemilitarydictatorshipthatruledBrazilfor20years,from1964to1985.Itbeganwithacoupd’étatledbytheArmedForcesagainstPresidentJoãoGoulartoftheNationalLabourParty.EspeciallyinthecontextoftheColdWar,conservativesviewedGoulartastoofartotheleft;theUnitedStatessupportedthecoupagainsthim.11TheDocaStreetcaseof1976referstothemurderofAngelaDinizbyherlover,DocaStreet,whowasarenownedplayboy.Hewasacquittedathisfirsttrialonthebasisofmalehonor.Afterfeministorganizing,hewassentencedto15yearsinprisonathissecondtrial.SeeDaphnePatai,BrazilianWomenSpeak:ContemporaryLifeStories(NewJersey:Rutgers,1988).12AngradosReisisamunicipalityontheSouthernshoreofBrazil.13ElianedeGrammontwasshotbyherhusbandLindomarCastilho.Hisactionswereoriginallyacceptedincourtonthebasisof“violentemotion,”butfeministorganizingledtoa12yearsentenceinjail.SeeJenniferAbbassiandSherylLutjens,RereadingWomeninLatinAmericaandtheCaribbean:thePoliticalEconomyofGender(LanhamMD:Rowman&LittlefieldPublishers,2002).14LindomarCastilhowasafamousBraziliansinger.15PresumablyherhusbandhopedtoreceivetheinsurancemoneywhendaPenhawasdead.16Thesixthsenseistheideathatonecanperceivemattersthataren’taccessiblethroughthefivesenses.

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close,heaskedmetotransfermycartoacolleagueofhis,andIsignedablankdocumentforthistransfer,becausehesaidbysigningthatthecarwouldbemine,hewouldtakeittothepersontogetthenameandtherightinformation.Andwhenhelefthome,Ifoundthedocumentinhisdrawerinhisoffice.Itwasanotherwaytostealsomematerialthingthatwasmine.SoIlefthomewithajudicialorderassoonashewasgoneonabusinesstrip–hewasspendingaweekaway.Hehadevenhiredanarmedguardtobeatthehouse,explainingthatitwasformysecurityandforthekidsbecausesincetheburglarshadenteredthehouseandhewastraveling,thatcouldhappenagain.Buttheguardwasonlythereatnight–hesleptthereonenight,andthenextday,Ihadthedocumentsinhand.SoIlefthomeandIwenttomyparents’house.SC:Withthegirls?MP:Yes,withthegirls.Andthenwhenhefoundout,Icalledhisboss,“hisboss,”andIsaidthatthehousekeywaswithme,thatIwasgoingtoasksomeonetoleaveitathishouse.Thenthebosscametomyhouse,Itoldhimwhathadhappened.AndthenIcalledhim[herhusband]andsaidIhadtalkedwithhisbossandthatIdidn’thavethekeysanymore.Then,startingatthatpoint,hemademanyattemptstotrytogobacktotherelationship.Heaskedforgiveness,saidthathewasbeingveryaggressive,anabsurdity,justsayingthings,justtalking,commentingaboutthelastdays,andthewayshetreatedme,right?Becausetherewasnothingprovingitwashim,andIcouldn’teventhinkaboutthatbecausethestorywasalreadytold,hegaveatestimonytothepolice,everyoneknewaboutthestory.Butwhenthecasewasreopened,becauseIhadn’tgivenmytestimonyyet,andthechiefofpolicewenttomyhometocontinuetheinvestigation,thenitwasdiscoveredthatitwashim,hesetituptolooklikeaburglary….SC:Anduntilthatmoment,youdidn’tknow,yoususpected,oryouknew?MP:Ididn’tknow.IstartedtosuspectwhenIarrivedinthisprivateprison,andIlearnedtheopinionsofmyneighborhood,andofthegirlswhoworkedinmyhouse,right?Therewererumorsthattherewasnoburglary,andthathecouldhavebeentheonewhodidit.Everyoneonthestreetstartedtodoubtwhathesaidaboutaburglary,therewerepeopleoutonthesidewalkwhohadn’tseenanything,soeveryonestartedtoanalyzehistestimonyandfoundflaws,yousee?AndwhenIarrivedfromBrasilia,17becauseIwasbeingtreatedinahospitalinBrasilia,Iheardthingsfromthegirlswhoworkedforme,andwestartedtoputthepuzzlepiecestogether.AndthepieceshadtobeputtogethersothentheChiefofPolicecametotakemytestimony,andthentookthegirls’,andinthosetestimonieswesaidthingsthreeorfourtimes,sotheycheckedifitwastrueornot.SC:Testimonyfromthegirls?MP:Thegirlswhoworkedhere.1817BrasiliaisthefederalcapitalofBrazil.18DaPenhaisreferringtodomesticworkersinthehouseatthetime.

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SC:Notyourkids.MP:No,notthechildren.Theywerebetween7and2,noteven.Myoldestwas6yearsandthelittleonewas8months,Ithink.So…Isaid,we’regoingtoworkonthisinvestigation.SotheChiefofPolice,theycalledhim[herhusband,theaccused],andhedidn’tknowwhathewasbeingcalledfor,buttheycalledhimin,sayingthattheinvestigationwouldbeclosed,andwhenhegotthere,andhewasinterrogated,hecouldn’trememberwhathehadsaidthefirsttime.Alreadysixmonthshadpassed,yousee?Sothatishowhewascaught.Hewascaughtinatotalcontradictionofthestoryhehadtold[thefirsttime]andthestoryhewasbeingaskedaboutandthathewasrespondingto.Sohewasaccusedofattemptedhomicideagainstme.SC:SoifIremember,ifIrememberthedetailscorrectly,hewasfoundguilty,andhewassentenced,butheleftquicklybecauseheappealed,andhewasoutforalongtime,theyreleasedhim.Isthatright?MP:Right,right.Yes,exactly.Thefirsttrialtookeightyears–andIwaspushing,searching,manyfriendshelpedmetotrytoresolveit.Andhewasfoundguilty,butheleftthecourtroomfreebecauseoftheappeal.AndatthismomentIfelt,despite…yes,thenthewomen’smovementhadbeencreatedinmytown.SC:Whatwasthenameoftheorganizationthen?MP:ItwastheCearáCouncilofWomen’sRights.19SC:Weretherenationalnetworks,orwasitlocal?MP:No,itwaslocal,buttherewerenationallinksbecausethiswaswhenitstartedtohavesomevisibility.SotheCouncilwascreated.ThefirstWomen’sPoliceStation20wascreatedin1986,andmycase,itwasin‘83.Imean–SC:But[thewomen’spolicestation]openedinSãoPaulo,right?Orwasitalreadythere?MP:InSãoPauloitwasin‘85.SC:In‘86,therewasalreadyonehere?MP:No,‘86wasoursinFortaleza,right?So…19TheConselhoCearensedeDireitosdaMulher(CCDM),20Sheisreferringtospecialpoliceunitswhicharemeanttorespondspecificallytoissuesofrapeorviolenceagainstwomen.Officers,whoareoftenwomen,aretrainedtorespondtotheseparticulartypesofcrisis.Anumberofcountrieshavethesespecializedpolicestations,andinBrazilthiswasstartedin1985.Seehttp://www.endvawnow.org/en/articles/1093‐womens‐police‐stations‐units.html(access1/11/16).

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SC:Sorry.Soyouwenttothat[women’s]policestation,totalkaboutyourtrial,ornot?MP:No,no,becauseitwasalreadyinthecourts,right?SC:Thefirsttime…right?MP:Yes.That’sright.Then,forthejudgmentthathappenedeightyearsafterthefact,thatwasin‘91,thejudgment,thefirstjudgment.Bythattime,Ihadthewomen’smovementorganizingdemonstrationsinfrontofthecourthouse,makingthecasetothepress.Theyweregivingitvisibility,thenhewasfoundguilty,butheleftthecourthousefreebecauseoftheappeal….CanIdrink?SC:Ofcourse!MP:Wouldyoulikesome?SC:Yes,thankyou.ThesecondthemethatIwantedto…sorry,goahead.MP:Whenheleftthecourtroomfree,Ifellintoasortofdepression.Iwasveryshocked.ThenIwrotethebook,ISurvived…NowICanTell[Sobrevivi…PossoContar],21onahunch,andthedaythebookcameout,Isaidthatthisbookwasaboutmyaggressorwhohadleftthecourtroomfree,butwhoeverreadsthebookwouldclearlyfindhimguiltyandhewouldbeimprisonedbysociety.SoIwouldhavehimimprisonedbysociety,no?Bysociety,hewouldbecaughtbysociety,bywhoeverwouldreadthebook.Thishappened,andthebookreachedthehandsofCEJIL[theCenterforJusticeandInternationalLaw]22inRiodeJaneiro,andtheycalledmeaskingifIwantedtodenounceBrazilintheOAS[OrganizationofAmericanStates].23AttheOAS,nottheUN,24andthenIsaidyes,becauseyou…SC:Sotheycontactedyou?MP:Yes.SC:Theyhadreadthebook?

21Publishedin1994,“ISurvived…NowICanTell”isMariadaPenha’sautobiography.22TheCenterforJusticeandInternationalLawisaninstitutionthataimsto“contributetothefullenjoymentofhumanrightsintheAmericasthroughtheeffectiveuseofthetoolsoftheInter‐AmericanSystemandinternationalhumanrightslaw”(https://cejil.org/en/cejil/about‐cejil).23TheOrganizationofAmericanStates(OAS)joinsmemberstatesthatarecountriesintheAmericastocreateaforumforsocialandeconomicdevelopmentthroughcooperation(http://www.oas.org/en/about/who_we_are.asp).24TheUNistheUnitedNations.

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MP:That’sright,becauseIwasn’tfamiliarwithCEJIL.SoCEJILtogetherwithCLADEM25madethepetition,andwesigned,CEJIL,CLADEM,andme–thispetitiontotheOAS.Wesentthebookandacopyofthelawsuit.Thelawsuitwasthreevolumes,ortwo,itwasenormous,butwesentit.AndthenIwascalm,becauseIknewsomething…Iwascertainthatsomethingpositivewouldhappen.Andthentherewasasecondjudgmentandhewas–SC:Theappeal?MP:Hewastriedagain,againfoundguilty,butheleftagaininfreedombecauseofanappeal.DuringthistimeIwrotearticles.SC:Howmuchtimehadpassed?Tenyearsorso?Eightforthefirstjudgment.MP:Thefirstjudgmentwasin‘91,thesecondin’96.SC:Andhewasfreethewholetime?MP:Thewholetime,yes.SC:Andyouweren’tafraidforyourlife?MP:No,Iwasverycareful,Ididn’texposemyself.Ispentalotoftimeathome.SC:Andthegirls,heneverthreatenedthegirls?MP:Thegirls,too.No,no,therewasatimewhenhetriedmanytimesto,howdoyousay,takethemforanouting,butafterhe…SC:Hehadtherighttoseethem?MP:Soyousee,hehadtherighteveryfortnightbecausethisnegotiationisverytechnical.SC:Yes.MP:Verytechnical.SC:Theseparationlefttheminyourcustody?MP:Yes….SC:Buthehadtoseethemevery‐

25CLADEMisaregionalorganizationinLatinAmericaandtheCaribbeanthataimstoenforcewomen’srightsusinglawasatoolofsocialchange.TheyhaveadvisedfortheUnitedNationsandparticipateinOASactivities(http://www.cladem.org/en/about‐cladem).

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MP:Butastheywereveryafraidofhim…andtheywere,becausetheyhadsufferedalotwithhimaswell,right?SC:Ofcourse.MP:Theywerescared.AndIalwayssaidtothem,ifyoudon’twanttogooutwithyourfather,Iamtheoneinchargeofyounow,andyoudon’tneedtogo.Andwhenevertheyagreed,Iplayedagame,Isaid,ifyouwanttogooutwithhim,go.Butnowauntieisgoingtotakeyouout,forabirthday.Sowealwayshadanalternativethatgavethemthesecuritytosaytheywantedtogotothebirthdaywithmom,youknow?Ialwaysplayedthisgame,toavoidhimbeingwiththemwhenIdidn’tknow.Theyfearedhim,theywereafraid.Allhehadtodowaslookatthem,youknow?Then,whenthesecond…Yes,duringthisperiod,IwroteanarticleeveryMay8th.Recallingtheepisode.Andwhenthesecondtrialhappenedandheleftfree,CEJILalreadyhadallofmyreportsthatIhadsentwhenthiswashappening,thiswasthetimewhen…during,itwasin’97thatthecasegottoOAS.Forfouryears,OASsentletterstoBrazil,takingapositiononthecase,andBrazilneverresponded.Inpart,thishelpedbecausethebureaucracyhadceasedtoexist,thiswaspositive,inspiteofbeinganegativecase…SC:Inwhatyearwasit,wasitin’97thatitgotthrough?MP:Right.SC:Itwasin’97.Sowhowaspresidentthen,wasit…MP:ItwasFernandoHenrique.26FernandoHenrique.Itwas2002whenLula27tookoffice….right?SC:2002.So,itwasFernandoHenriquethen.MP:Yes.SC:WasthePublicMinistryinvolved?MP:Yes,buttherewasn't...ItwasItamarati[MinistryofForeignRelations],right,thathandlesinternationalissues?ButtherewasnoresponsefromtheBraziliangovernment.SC:TherewasalsoDonaRuth28atthattime,alsoabigfeminist.

26FernandoHenriqueCardoso,PresidentofBrazilfrom1995to2003,wasthefirstBrazilianpresidenttobereelectedforasecondterm.HeisknownasanaccomplishedscholarinSociology.27LuizInácioLuladaSilva,PresidentofBrazilfrom2002to2011,ismemberoftheleft‐wingWorker’sParty.Hemadehiswaytopowerfrompoverty,becominginvolvedinunionsthatunderhisleadershipbecamestrongindependentmovements.HispresidencyadvocatedsocialdemocraticreformsandsocialprogramsthatlefthimwiththehighestapprovalratingsinBrazilianhistory.ItiscommonthroughoutBraziltorefertoleaderswiththeirfirstnames.

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MP:Therewas,yes.SC:Andshewasconnectedtothegovernment?MP:Shewas.SC:Butevenso,therewasnoofficialresponsefromthestate?MP:Itdidn’thappen,forsure.ButthenBrazilwascondemned,itwassentencedinternationallytochangethecountry’slawssothatcasesofimpunity29ceasedtoexist,becausetherewasalotofimpunityforattackers.Ithinkitwasdifficultforpeopletolearnthataguyhadbeenarrested,hecouldevenbearrested,butthathethengotofffree,youno?SC:Right.MP:Sothentherewasasilenceaboutthis,andthecasewasreachingthestatuteoflimitations,30becauseaftertwentyyearsthecasewouldbepasttheperiodofprescription.31AndwithLulaalreadyinpower,therewaspressureforhim[theaggressor]tobesenttoprison.Sotherewerejustsixmonthsleftforthecrimetobetriedandhewassenttojail.Becauseoftheinternationalpressure,hewassenttojail,theinternationalpressureandthenational,becausetherewasnationalpressuretoo…sothenhewasimprisoned.HespenttwoyearsinasecurityprisonhereinCeará,theplaceofthecrime,butthenhewasputinsemi‐open32wherehelivesnow,whichisinRioGrandedoNorte,in

28RuthVilaçaCorrêaLeiteCardoso,commonlyknownasDonaRuth,wasawell‐knownBraziliananthropologistandfeministwhobecamefirstladyfrom1995to2003asthewifeofFernandoHenriqueCardoso.Shepassedawayin2008.(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/world/americas/02cardoso.html?_r=0)29“Impunitymeans"exemptionfrompunishmentorlossorescapefromfines."Intheinternationallawofhumanrights,itreferstothefailuretobringperpetratorsofhumanrightsviolationstojusticeand,assuch,itselfconstitutesadenialofthevictims'righttojusticeandredress.”(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impunity)30“Astatuteoflimitationisalawwhichforbidsprosecutorsfromchargingsomeonewithacrimethatwascommittedmorethanaspecifiednumberofyearsago.Thegeneralpurposeofstatutesoflimitationistomakesureconvictionsoccuronlyuponevidence(physicaloreyewitness)thathasnotdeterioratedwithtime.”(http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal‐law‐basics/time‐limits‐for‐charges‐state‐criminal‐statutes‐of‐limitations.html)31“Periodsofprescriptionaretimelimitsthatsetforththemaximumperiodoftimeafteraneventthatlegalproceedingsbasedonthateventmaybeinitiated.Incivillawsystems,periodsofprescription,alsoknownasprescriptiveperiods,aresetbythecivilorcriminalcode.”(defensewiki.ibj.org/index.php/Periods_of_prescription)32“Semi‐open”referstotheBrazilianprisonsystem.Brazilhasoneofthelargestprisonpopulationsintheworld,andthuscategorizesitsprisonsas“closed”wheretheinmateisconstantlyinacell,“semi‐open”wheretheinmatemayhavetemporaryleaveandmorefreedominsidethefacility,and“open”whereinmatesareonlyheldatnightsoronweekends.(http://thebrazilbusiness.com/article/prison‐system‐in‐brazil).

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Natal.33Andwasin2006,whenPresidentLulawasstillinhisfirstmandate,whichisfouryears.SC:Yes.MP:Hecameintoofficein2002,andin2006theypassedtheMariadaPenhalaw11.340.34ThisbillwasworkedonbyaconsortiumofNGOs,withtheSecretariatofPoliciesforWomen,therewasaconsortiumofNGOsthatwasalreadyworkingonthisquestionofviolence….SC:Doyourememberwhotheministerwas?MP:ItwasDr.NilcéaFreire,35veryactive,veryactive.SC:Didyougettoknowherwellduringthiswholeprocess?MP:Idid.SC:Shecamehere,ordidyoutraveltoBrasilia?MP:No,IstartedtotalkwithMinisterNilcéawhenthelawwaslaunched,withtheenactmentofthelaw.Beforethat,withthebill,therapporteurwasCongresswomanJandiraFeghali.36Shewentwiththebilltovariousstatelegislaturestofindoutifthebillneededchangesoranything.Therewasonechangethatshesaidwasveryimportant–itwastoincreasethesentenceoftheperpetratorwhenthevictimwasawomanwhowasalreadydisabled.Sothepunishmentfortheoffenderwouldbeincreased,yousee?Itwasinoneofthosehearingsthatsomeonesaidthat,anditwasveryinterestingbecauseawomanisevenmorevulnerablewhenshehasadisability,right?SC:Yes,thevulnerability.MP:It’shigher.SC:Well,therearesomanythingsthatIwantedto–

33NatalisthecapitalofRioGrandedeNorte,amunicipalityintheNortheastofBrazil.34TheMariadaPenhalawwassignedin2006andaimstoreducedomesticviolenceinBrazil.Itincreasesthemaximumsentenceforoffenders,removeslegaljustificationsforabuse,andofferssystemsforprotectingsurvivorssuchasremovingtheabuserfromthehome.ItisthefirstlawinBrazilthatmentions“sexualorientation,”asitalsoprotectssurvivorsofsame‐sexdomesticviolence. 35NilcéaFreirewasMinisteroftheSecretariatofPoliciesforWomeninBrazilfrom2004to2010underLuladaSilva.ShewastheBraziliandelegatetotheLatinAmericanandCaribbeanRegionalConferenceoftheUnitedNationsandtheInter‐americanCommissionofWomenoftheOrganizationofAmericanStates(http://www.fordfoundation.org/issues/educational‐opportunity‐and‐scholarship/higher‐education‐for‐social‐justice/team/nilcea‐freire).36JandiraFeghali,adoctorinRiodeJaneiro,becameactiveinpoliticsintheearly1980sasamemberoftheCommunistPartyofBrasil(PCdoB).SheplayedanactiveroleingettingtheMariadaPenhalawpassed.

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MP:Puttogether,right?SC:Goinginorder.First,Iamveryinterestedinthelawsuit,thinkingaboutthefirsttimesomeonecalledyoufromCEJIL,howdidthatgo?CEJILknewaboutthelawsuitbecauseofyourbook?MP:Yes.SC:SothenIimaginetherewerepeoplewantingtoaddressthisissue,therewerealreadyfeministmovementsstartingtofocusonviolenceagainstwomen,theyhadalreadypressuredforthecreationofwomen’spolicestations.Sothiswashappeninginparalleltoyourpersonallawsuit.Sowhenthesetwothingscametogether,thenationalfeministmovementalreadybeginningtofocusinaveryconsistentwayontheproblemofdomesticviolence,andyourindividuallawsuit,theintersectionofthesetwothings,thepersonalwiththepolitical,sothatiswhenthecallcamefromCEJIL,right?MP:Yes,right.SC:Sotellmealittleaboutwhatthisphonecallwaslike.Whocalled?Wereyouathome?Wereyousurprised?Youwerehomeeatinglunchandthenthecallcame–likeIcalledyou,andyouwerethere.MP:No,thereweredotsthatwerebeingconnected,right?WhenIwaslaunchingmybook,IhadthesupportoftheCearáCouncilofWomen’sRights,andFátimaDouradowasthepresident,so…SC:Oh,theoneyoumentioned,whohadalreadycreated–MP:Huh?SC:HereinFortaleza?MP:Yes.FátimaDouradowasafriendofRepresentativeMárioMamede,StateRepresentative,andtheStateRepresentativecreatedtheHumanRightsCommissionoftheHouse.SC:OfCeará?MP:Yes,ofCeará.Hewasthepresidentofthiscommission,hecreatedit.Andcasesofviolationsofhumanrightswouldreachhimthroughthiscommission.Andthenwhathappened–SC:In‘90something?

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MP:No,not’90,itwas…Exactly,itwas’91,afterthejudgment,thetrialwasin’91,right?Therewasalreadythewomen’scouncil.WhenIhadtheideatowritethebook,ItalkedwithFátima,Icalledher–Fátima,Iamwritingabook,andIwantyoutoreadit,okay?BecauseIwanttorecordwhathappenedtome.Sothenthebookwasworkedon,afriendofminehelpedmetowritethebook,becausehewasawriter,sohehelpedme.AndMárioMamede37participatedinthereleaseofthebook,right?Hetookpartinthat.SC:Sowhatpresswasthat?MP:Itwasalocalpress,Imeannorealpress.Idon’tevenknowifitstillexists.Itwasthisfriendofmine,whoisawriter,whosaidlet’shaveitdoneinthisprintshop.Andthenwedidit.AndthensoonafterthatCEJILcontactedtheLegislativeAssemblytointroduceitself,IthinkthiswaswhenCEJILwasfirstcreated,toshowthatCEJILexisted,yousee?Thentheycamehere,toFortaleza,andtheyofferedacourse,atrainingaboutwhatCEJILwas,whatwerethecausesthatCEJILwouldtaketotheinternationalsphere.SothesecretaryofMárioMamede,representingMárioMamede,saidtohim,“Mário,thePenhacasefitswellwithCEJILbecauseallofthedomesticrouteshavebeenexhaustedandIthinkyoushouldtalkwithCEFJILaboutthat.”SothenMáriocalledCEJIL,ormaybetheywerestillhere.IknowthatMáriogavethebooktoCEJILandsaidthatthejudicialpowerinCearáisthemostcorruptinBrazil,ineveryway.Anditis,yousee?AndsinceCEJILaddressescaseswhenjusticeisineffective,itwaswithCEJIL,sothenrightawaytheylovedCEJIL,andwithinaweekIgotacall,butIknewthatthebookhadalreadybeengiventothem.Máriohadaskedme,“OhPena,thisisgoingon,canIgivethemyourbook?”Youcan.Youhaveto.SC:Yes.MP:Youhaveto.SC:SoitwasperfectforCEJIL.DoyouknowwhatCEJIL’sinterestswere–wasitthecorruptionofthejusticesysteminCearáorwasittheissueofdomesticviolence.MP:No,Ithinkitwasthequestionofimpunityitself….SC:Nomatterwhatitwasfor?MP:Inthiscase,itwascharacterizedasimpunityagainstwomen,right?SC:Yes.MP:Violenceagainstwomen.SC:Doyourememberwhocalledyou?37MárioMarmede,apoliticianfromFortaleza,wasintheWorker’sParty,andin2005hewasameddeputyministerofhumanrights.

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MP:Well,firsttherewasBeatrizGallo,andIthinkshekickedtheballoff.ShewastheonewhogotthebookbecauseshewastherepresentativeofCEJILatthetime,right?AndtheniswasLilianaTojo38…AfterawhileLilianatookthepositioninWashington,Ithinkitwasalreadythen.BecausefirstIthinktheysent,no,Idon’tknowexactlyhowitworked.ThenLilianeTojo–SC:Therewasapetitiontoseeifitwouldbeacceptedfor–MP:That’sright.ThenwithLiliana,evenMáriotheotherdayremindedmewhenwewerechatting….SC:Isheyourfriend?MP:No,wedon’thavemuchofafriendship,butthat’sbecausetheInstituteisproducing…SC:YourInstitute,theWomen’sInstitute?39MP:Yes,exactly.Weareproducingmaterials,andwearerecordingMário’sinterviewaswellasFátimaDourado’s.He’stalkingabouthowhemetmeandthetroubleshehadwithmycase,yousee?SC:Ohyes.Isthisonthewebsite?MP:No,no.We’reintheprocessofrecordingit.SC:Areyoumakingthisrightnow?MP:Yes.Itwasdoneattheendoflastyear.Márioisbeingrecorded,hewastellingthestory,andIwasthere,andthenhesaidthat…oh,Iforget.Iforget.ButIwillremember,aninterestingthingIwantedtotellyou….Yeah,andthenhesaid,“Iwanttotellyou,Penha,Idon’tknowifyou’llremember,butthisdayI’llneverforget.LilianaTojowascomingfromtheUS…”SC:WhoisLiliana.Iforgot.MP:LilianafromCEJIL.SC:Oh,fromCEJIL.MP:Soatthattime,shegotthisposition.AndshewascomingfromtheU.S.No,itwaseithertheU.S.orfromPará,40IthinkshewascomingfromBeléminPará.Shestoppedin38LilianaTojoisstillatCEJIL,andiscurrentlytheDirectoroftheProgramforBoliviaandtheSouthernCone.39The“women’sinstitute”referstoIMP,the“InstitutoMariadaPenha,”whichaddressesissuesofviolenceagainstwomen.FormoreinformationinPortuguese,seehttp://www.mariadapenha.org.br/40ParáisanorthernBrazilianstate,intheAmazonNationalPark.ThestatecapitalisBelém.

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Argentina,thenSãoPaulo.SheisArgentine,butshelivesinSãoPaulo.Irememberthat.Theconvention,whatwastheyearoftheconvention?SC:Theconventionwas’94,ifI’mnotmistaken,nowIhavetothinkaboutit.MP:Idon’tknow,because…SC:TheConventionofBelémdePará,41theConvention–MP:Right,Idon’tknow.SC:Itwasaconventionagainstallkindsofdiscrimination.MP:Right.Maybeshewascomingfromthere.IknowshewasgoingtoSãoPaulo,andshestoppedhere.EventhoughitwasChristmasEve,the24th,thenMáriosaid,“Penha,youdon’trememberthatitwasonChristmas?”AndthisthingthatMáriosaidwhenwewererecording,thatwemetatthehotelonChristmasday,the25th,yes.That’sright.SC:SoshewascomingfromtheU.S.?MP:Well,Idon’tknowifshewascomingfromBelémortheU.S.IknowshewasgoingtoSãoPaulo.SC:Conceição,42doyouremembertheBelémConvention.Doyouremembertheconventionaboutviolenceagainstwomen.Canyoulookitup?MP:That’sright,andthenhesaid–SC:Soshewasattheconvention?MP:Idon’tknow,Idon’trememberanymore.Conceição:Ithinkitwasin‘94.SC:‘94,right?Lookatthephone,thedateoftheconvention.Imean,it’snotgoingtohelp,becausethedatethattheconventionwasacceptedwasnotthedatethatthepeoplegathered.MP:Exactly,becausewhenshecameshehadnews.SC:Aboutthat?41ThiswasanInter‐AmericanConventionpassedin1994to“prevent,punish,anderadicateviolenceagainstwomen.”42ConceiçãodeMariaisanassistantattheInstituteMariadaPenhaandwaspresentfortheinterview.

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MP:Aboutthat,right.Sowewenttothehotelwhereshewas,MárioandIandwetalkedwithherandeverything.Butthiswasn’twhatIwasgoingtosay.Whatwereyouaskingagain?SC:Iwasaskingaboutthisprocess,abouthow,whofrominsidetheCEJIL,ifitwasageneralinterestorifitwasspecificallythesubjectofdomesticviolence.MP:Yes,Ihavetheimpressionthatthesubjectwastheviolationofhumanrightswithafocusonwomen,thatmycasereflectedthat.SC:Yes,exactly,becauseithappenedrightaroundthesametime–nomatterwhattheexactdate–thattheconventionwashappening,ithappenedduringtheconversationsaboutthatconvention.MP:Well,maybethatgeneraltimeframe–SC:So,shewasinvolved,ifyouremember.Shewasinvolvedinthisconversationabouttheconvention?MP:Ihavetheimpressionthatshewas.Soshecame,sinceshewascomingthisway,shecontactedmeandthenItalkedtoMárioandwewenttothehotelandshewastellingmethateverythingwasgoingthewayitshould.Yes,yes.Soyousee,whenLilianacalledmein2001tosay,“Penha,CEJILrecognizesthatBrazilneedstochangemanythings,andyouaregoingtogetsomepressinSãoPaulo,wearesendingitthere,toSãoPaulo,thepressreleaseofthecase,theyaregoingtocometoyou,Estadão43isgoingtodoaninterviewwithyou,allright?”AveMaria,didn’tIsaythatsomethingwouldhappen?IwasveryhappyandIcalledMário.MáriowastheMinisterofHealthforamunicipalitynearby,soIcalledoverthereandaskedforMário.WhenIcalledhim,hesaid,“PenhaIhavegoosebumps.”AndIsaid,“Imagineme!”Sothatwasit,thatwasit,that’showitstarted.Idon’tthinkanyonebelievedthatthenewspaperwoulddoanything,butIsaid,nowthingsaregoingtohappen.Andthat’swhathappened,yousee.SC:Andhowwasthecase,didyouhavetogotoWashington?MP:No,no.Everythingwasinwriting,indocuments.ThreeyearsagonowIwenttoWashington–thewomenfromCEJILbroughtmethere.Itwasdifficulttoimplementthelaw,youknow?SC:Ah,yes.MP:Itisdifficultforpeopletounderstandthatthewomanmustbeprotected.Soweencounteredtwoverysadcases,therewereothersthatweknewabout,butthesewerefamous,thecaseofthegoalkeeperoftheFlamengo44[soccerteam].Hiswifereportedhim,43OEstadãodeSãoPaulo,“TheStateofSãoPaulo”,isadailynewspaperdistributednationally.44ClubedeRegatasdoFlamengoisthemostpopularBraziliansoccerteam.

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sheregisteredacomplaint.Andshewasmurderedbecauseamalejudgesaidthatshedidn’thaveareliablenarrative–whereithappened,whosawit.Whatkindofjudgeisthat?Forthecaseofthegoalkeeper,andalsothecaseofahairdresserwholivednearherattacker,andshehadalready…ThiswasinMinasGerais,45andshehadalreadyreportedanumberoftimesandtheguyhadnotbeenarrested,sohewentinandgaveittoher,killedherrightduringtheworktime.Imean,howcanyouexpectotherwomentobeencouragedtofilereportswhenthesetwocasesshowsuchtotaldisregard?SC:So,thenexttopicthatIwantedtodiscuss,thesecondone,hascomeup.Thatiswhatcameafterthisjudgmentinthecommittee.TherewastheresponsefromBrazil,Braziltookitstime.ThisissomethingIdon’tunderstand,becauseIreadthatcase,Ihavereaditmanytimes,andalsomystudents,Ihaveaskedthemtodoworkonthis.Theywillwatchthisvideo;theyareveryexcitedtoseetheinterview.MP:It’swhat?Conceição:It’sJuneof’94.SC:‘94.Iwasthinkingthatitwas’94.Soshewasdefinitelycomingfromthere.MP:Yes,exactly.SC:Sofromtheceremony.MP:No,no,but…Mayof’94.Conceição:IknowitwasinDecember.MP:Isthatright,Ceci?Itwasn’tafterwegotbackin’97…shecouldhavegonetoBelémjusttofindoutsomethingabouttheconvention,right,butitwasn’ttotell…SC:Wecaninterviewherlater,andthenwe’llhavethehistoryfromvariousperspectives.ButIwassaying,Ireadthiscase,whichisonthewebsiteofthecommission,youclick,andthereareallofthecases,soweusethem.AndIusethisalotinmyclasses,becausethey’reinEnglish,sothestudentsreadthem,interpretthem,analyzethem.AndIalwaysaskmyselftwothings.Thefirstthingyou’vealreadyanswered.Howthecasegottothatpoint.Wealreadyaddressedthisissue.Thesecondis,asBrazilhadaSecretariatforWomen,hadaSecretaryofDefenseofHumanRights,asBrazilagreedwiththeresultsoftheprocess,whydidittakesolongforaresponse?Youcanseethecaseonthecommission’ssitethatCEJILcomplains,complains,complainsthatBrazilisnottakingthenecessarystepsto...Thisisbeforethelaw,beforepassingthelawin2006.MP:Wastherealreadyachargeinthissense?45MinasGeraisisthesecondmostpopulousstateinBrazil.

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SC:Yes.InthisdocumentCEJIL,reportsannuallyonwhat'sgoingonwiththisprocess,withthiscase.TheycomplainedthatBrazilwasnottakingthenecessarymeasures.Thisisin2003,2004,2005,andfinallythereisalawthatisamajormilestone.Sowhathappenedafterthecase,whichledtothepassingofthebillin2006astheMariadaPenhalaw,inthisinterval?HowwasthefinalpassageofthislawmobilizedbyfeministgroupsorbyCEJIL?MP:Ibelieve,youknow,therewereorganizations,NGOs,workingonthisissueandtheywereveryactive.TheyweresurelypresentattheConventionofBelémdoPará,theymusthavebeen.AndwhentherewasthecreationoftheSecretariatandtheappeal[toBrazil],andBrazil’sobligationtochangelaws.ThenMinisterNilcéamanagedtoorganizetheseNGOsinaconsortium,therewasaconsortium,andtheyanalyzedeverythingintheprojectrelatedtowomen,toissuesofviolence,yousee?Andallthiswasworkedintoabill,andthisbillwasapprovedinthesessionofthelegislativeassemblies.AfewthingswerechangedasItoldyou,butintheendtherewasapprovalintheNationalCongress,inboththeSenateandtheChamberofDeputies.TheSenatepassedthebill,andtheChamberaswell.SC:Andthewordingofthelaw,itwasfromthisorganizationofNGOs?MP:Yes.SC:Sotherewastheparticipationofcivilsocietyinthediscussionofhowthislawshouldbeworded?MP:Yes,that’swhy,forexample…SC:Weretherevariouscongressesoverthesubject?MP:Ididn’tfollowitthatclosely,youknow.Becausefromthemomentthatagroupexistedtoworkonthis,itwasnolongermine.Thisgroupismorethancapable,andIalreadyhadmywork,yousee.SC:Yes.MP:Imean,IparticipatedinthesessionsthattookplacethereandwhatIaskedoftheaudience,whatIsaidwas,“Look,whatIwouldlike,whathastobestated,whathastobeunderstoodisthatanyoneshouldbeabletoreportawomanwhoisavictimofdomesticviolence,notonlythewomanherself.Andthisalsomeansthatthepersoncanremainanonymous.”Manytimes,peopledon’twanttogetinvolvedinafight,theydon’twanttobeinvolvedinthat,becausetheyarealsofearfuloftheaggressor,especiallyifitisarelative.SoIpresentedthistotheassemblythatmethereinCeará.Andsothecourt–therewassomethingaboutthissentiment–thecourt,theSupremeCourtconfirmedthatanyonecanreportawomanvictimofdomesticviolence,sothatshewillbeprotectedandheraggressorpunished.

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SC:Therearesomejudges,sincethelawwaspassed,somejudgesdisagreewiththelaw,arguingthatit’sunconstitutionalbecauseitaddressesonlyviolenceagainstwomen,whenitshouldbeaboutanydomesticviolence.Whatdoyouthinkaboutthis?Couldamanbenefitfromthislaw?Inotherwords,couldamanwhowasthevictimofdomesticviolenceprocesshisattackeronthebasisofthislaw?MP:No,notbasedonthislaw.Buthecoulddenouncehisaggressor,right.Therearecommonproceduresforthis.Imean,thelawisneededjustwhenthewomanisthevictim.Why?Becausethisisthemajorityofcasesandbecausehistoricallythewomanistheweakerone.It’simportanttounderstandthisbecauseinmachismo46culture,manisnotequaltowoman,inourculturemanissuperiortowomanandhecandowhateverhewants.That’swhatitwaslikebeforethelaw,andwomenneverreceivedjustice.SC:Anotherlandmarkofthislawisthatitspecifiedforthefirsttimethatitwasindependentfromthesexualorientationofthepersonsufferingtheviolence,orwhowasinvolvedinthefamilialrelations.ForLGBTactivistsandjuriststhiswasabiglandmark.ItwasthefirsttimethatsexualorientationwasrecognizedasafactorindomesticrelationshipsinBrazil,anditwasthefirsttimethatthefamilywasdefinedinthisway,thatitcouldincludepeopleregardlessofsexualorientation.Doyouhaveanopinionaboutthis,thatindeeditshouldhavebeenincludedorthatithadsomeimportance?MP:Ithinkit’simportant,becauseifnotyouwouldbeexcludingwomenwhosufferedviolence.Justbecausesheisalesbiansheisnotunderstatejurisdiction?Youdenyherprotection.Ifthisishappening,peopleneedtorespectit,no?SC:Andchangingthesubjecttoafterthepassageofthelaw.YoucreatedtheMariadaPenhaInstitutetocontinuetofightagainstdomesticviolence,notonlyatthelocallevel,butatthenationallevelaswell.Whatdoyouthinktheimpactofthelawhasbeen?Howhasitaffectedtheprevalenceofdomesticviolence?Hasitimprovedthesituationinsomeway,oraretherestillholes?MP:Well,I’lltellyouwhatIthinkisthatthepublicadministratorsaremostlymen…SC:Stilltoday?MP:Stilltoday,unfortunatelymostmenaresexist,that’smyinterpretation…whenIsaythis,whenIsaytoyouthathe’ssexist,Iamreflectingresearch,right?Becausethemajorityofourtownsdon’thaveanypublicpolicytosupportthewomaninthecaseofviolence,becausepublicadministratorsdon’tworkthisway.IttookeightyearsforthecapitalsinBraziltocreatetherightstructurestosupportthelawbecausetheadministratorsare46MachismocultureistheLatinAmericanconceptof“malepride”whichisstronglyassociatedwithfamilyhonor,sexualappetiteanddomination,heterosexuality,andstrengthwhichisoftentimesviolent.(http://web.stanford.edu/group/womenscourage/Repro_Latin/ekobash_HIVmachismo_Latin.html)

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sexist,theydon’tcareaboutit.Theydon’tthinkit’snecessary.Soit’sverymachotointerferewiththelaw,andweneedtochangethisthrougheducation,yousee?ThereisalsooneoftheOASrecommendationsthathasn’tbeenimplemented,recommendationnumber4,whichistoraiseawarenessoftheissuesintheschools,theissueofrespect,respectingbothgenders,respectingthateveryonehasthesameequalrights.Wearephysicallydifferent,butinrightsweareallequal;wehavedifferentorganicfunctions,butinrightswearejustascapableasanyman.AndItellthisexampleinmylectures,thatI’vetraveledmanytimeswithfemalepilots,airplanepilots,right.SC:Yes,that’sright.MP:Andinanyprofession,youseethatthewomanstandsoutevenmorethanmen,right?SC:Sothenthislawdoesmakeadifference.Thefactthatit’srecognizedbythelawasamajoroffenseandwon’tgotoalowercourt.MP:Idobelievethatlittlebylittle,theinvolvementofsocietyandthemedia,includingtheinvolvementofthepress,isveryimportant,becauseitwillenhancewomen’squalityoflifeinthesensethattheywillbeencouragedtoreport.Andalsomanymenwillrethinktheirconduct.Forexample,whenthestateknowshowtoplayitsrole,violencedecreases.Whenalocalpoliceofficerarrivesandarreststhatmanonthespot,alloftheothersrethinktheirbehavior.Andviceversa.Whenthatdoesn’thappen,women,theystopbelievinginthepowerofthestateandtheydon’treportanymore,andmenkeepdoingwhattheywanttowomen.SC:IsthishappeninginBrazil?MP:Itis,itis.SC:Finally,forthispart,canyoutellusalittlebitabouttheInstitute,howandwhen,andwhyitwascreated.Andhowitworks,whatithasdonesofar,andwhatitsgoalsare.MP:Well,throughtheInstitutewestarttogivemorevisibility–SC:I’msorry,whatyearwasitcreated?MP:In2009.Wewanttogivemorevisibilitytoviolenceagainstwomenandhowtofightit,yousee?Sowehavebeenshowingthrougheducationandattheuniversitiesandalloftheprofessionsthatwehaveaproject,whichisacoursethatisgivenintheuniversities.Andanystudentcanenrollforthiscourseandhaveayearorevensixmonthsoforientationonhowtorecognizeawomanwhoisavictimofdomesticviolence,howtoapplytheMariadaPenhaLaw.Thisisveryeasytocomeby.SC:It’sforlawstudents?

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MP:Anystudent.SC:Fromanyfield?MP:Fromanyfield,becausethedoctorneedstoknowthat,needstomakethemandatoryreport,andalsothenurse,andthenursetechnician,theyneedtoidentifythatwoman,whoisthere,embarrassed,becauseshewasavictimofrape.Theyneedtoknowhowtoidentifyher,howtotalktoher,knowhowtoencouragethatwoman,howtosupportthatwoman,andmakethemandatoryreport,yousee?Sothat’sit.TheInstitutegetsthisinformationoutthroughtheuniversitywithacoursestructuredlikethis,inschools,yousee.Forexample,theimportancetotellchildrenthatabrothercan’thithissister,thatafathercan’tbeattheirmother.Wetakethisinformationtotheteachers,andaskwhyteacherssendthelittleboystothebreakandthegirlshavetostaytocleanuptheblackboardandgettheclassroomreadyforthenextclass.Formoms,it’swhydoyousendyourboytoplayonthestreetandleaveyourgirlathometowashthedishes.Sothat’sit.Andwhoeverlistenstothis,theypassiton.Sothisishowithappenswhilethestatedoesn’tmeetitsresponsibilities.SC:Socivilsocietytakesiton.MP:Exactly.SC:SohowwastheInstitutefunded?Andhowwasitthoughtof?Didyoucomeupwiththeideabyyourself,orwasitaftertalkingtootherpeople?MP:No,theideacamefromoureducationcoordinator.Sheisauniversityteacherandsheshoweduswhatshehadinmind,andthatitwouldbegoodforustocreateaninstituteandeverything.Andwegotexcitedaboutit.Soweworkwithvolunteers,weworkalotwithvolunteers.Wehaveaverysmallteamwhichmakesallofthedifferencetoo.SothereisConceiçãodeMaria,whousedtoworkatacompanyandshecametous.Conceiçãoisthere.Andmydaughterworks‐‐SC:Claudiaisyourdaughter?MP:Yes.Claudiaismydaughter,themiddledaughter.SC:Oh,soI’mnotgoingtomeether.Conceição:Shewenttopickherdaughterupatschoolandshe’sgoingtocomehereonthewayback.SC:Isee,Italkedtoheralotovertheinternetandsheisverykind.MP:AndwehaveanemployeeattheInstitute,theassistantherewhotakescareofthings,shetakesordersfromConceição.Thesecretary,no?ShedoesallthesecretaryworkandI,

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asmuchasIcan,IamherehelpingthegirlsandhavingideasandaimingtoflyhigherthanIcanandtheyarealwaystryingtogetmyfeetbackonthegroundagain.SC:Andletmejustaskyouaquestion.Yousaid,wehadthatidea,andwewanted,togetherwiththatperson–what’sthenameofthepersonwhoistheeducator?MP:Oh,theeducationcoordinator.ShestartedoverinPernambuco.47SheisthecoordinatorofthecourseoftheDDDC,48whichisthecourseforpeoplewhowanttorecognizeanddefendtherightsofcitizenship.SC:Andshelecturestouniversitystudents?MP:Intheuniversity,shedoes.SC:Sosheisauniversityprofessor.MP:Exactly.Soshedoesthatpart.Shehasstudentsfromallfieldswhowanttodothis,becauseit’safreecourse,toalluniversitystudentswheresheteaches.SC:AndsheteachesinPernambuco?MP:InPernambuco.SC:Andshehadtheideatodothishere?MP:Heretoo.Butherewedowiththestaff.It’stheInstitutethatorganizesthecoursenow.Andtheresheistherealadvisorbecausesheisalreadyateacher,yousee.TheheadofficeoftheInstituteisinFortaleza.TheheadofficeoftheInstitutewascreatedhere,butsinceshelivesthere,andsheisauniversityteacherthere,shewantedtocreateacourseoftheInstitutethere.ButtheInstituteisfromFortaleza.SC:SoattheInstitutehere,she…MP:Sincesheisauniversityprofessor,shetookadvantageofthat.SC:IsshefromRecife?MP:Yes,sheis.SC:DoyouthinkIcantalktoher?MP:TodaysheisinPortugaldoingadoctoraldefense.47PernambucoisastateintheNortheastofBrazil.48TheDDDCreferstothe“CursoDefensoreseDefensorasdoDireitoàCidadania,”acourseintendedtohelppeoplerecognizewhenawoman’srightsarebeingviolated.

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SC:That’sashame.Andwhenyousayus,whoisus,besidesyouandyourdaughter,whowasalreadywantingtobeinvolvedinit.MP:Yes,butyousee,it’smysons‐in‐law.SC:Wonderful.MP:Mysons‐in‐lawandmytwootherdaughters,theyarealladvisors.Andtheycometothemeetings.Wemakedecisionstogether.Thedecisions,theyareallmadewiththisgroup.SC:That’snice.MP:Ialsohavecolleagueswhoareadvisors,colleaguesfromschool,wekeepintouch,andtheyagreed[tobeinvolved].SC:Interesting.MP:Yes.SC:Justonelastquestion.Iknowtheinterviewhasbeenverylong,andIcouldstayhereforhoursmore.Ihavefounditfascinating,veryinteresting.Theother,thisquestionfortheproject,weliketoasktoalloftheinterviewees,sowecancomparetheseanswers.Doyouconsideryourselfafeminist?Whatisittobeafeminist?HereinBrazil?Abroad?Whicheverwayyouwanttointerpretthisquestionandthisword.MP:Look.I’mjustadefenderoftherightsoftheMariadaPenhaLaw,adefenderofwomenwhoarevictimsofdomesticviolence.SC:That’sgood.Thankyouverymuch.Thiswaswonderful.Ireallyappreciateit.MP:It’sagoodthingthatyou—SC:Youpushheretoturnitoff.Didyouturnitoff?MP:Thankyou.