Legislative Assembly Hansard 1910

Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 24 NOVEMBER 1910

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Adjournment. [24 NovEMBER.] Questions. :!297

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

THURSDAY, 24 NOVE}!BER, 1910.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER (W. D. Armstrong, Esq., Lorkyc'r) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

STATE EDUCATION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.-CITY OF SOUTH BRISBANE LOAN ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.-ROCKHAMPTON HARBOUR BOARD AO'l'S AMENDMENT BILL.TOWNSVILLE HARBOUR BOARD ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

ASSENT.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER announced the receipt of messages from His Excellency the Governor intimating that the Royal assent had been gi vcn to the above Bills.

QUESTIONS. POSTAL V\'oRK PERFORMED BY RAILWAY

OFFICIALS.

Mr. ALLEN (Bulloo) asked the Secretary for RaiJways-

1. What is the amount received from the Federal Government by his department for carrying on roEtal work in various centres in the State?

2. At how many stations docs the Railway Department perform postal work?

3. How many of these stations are in charge of (a) men; (b) women?

4. Do these officers receive any extra remuneration for performing this extra work? If so, what is the scale of such allowances?

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. W. T. Paget, ~Mackay) replied-

1. £8,901 lls. lld. 2. 372. 3. Men, 152; woman, 220. 4. The allowance is included in the salarv paid

by the Commissioner for Railways.

POOLING OF CREAM AT DEPOTS. Mr. MAUGHAN (Ipswich) asked the Sec

retary for Agriculture-Will he lay on the table of this House all papers

in connection with the pooling and sampling of cream at depots in the West Moreton district?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. W. T. Paget, Jfackay) replied-

Yes. Mr. MAUGHAN: Thank you.

INOCULATION FOR TEXAS FEVER. Mr. IL\.RDACRE (Leichhardt) asked the

Secretary for Agriculture-1. On what date did Mr. Ramm first write to

the Stock Department recommending inoculation with the blood of a recovered beast as a preventive of Texas fever?

2. Is the blood of a recovered beast used by the State now as a preventive of Texas fever?

3. Did any person recognise inoculation with the blood of a recovered beast before Mr. Ramm?

4. If so, who, and when?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE replied-

!. On the 9th January, 1896. 2. Yes. 3. Yes. 4. Dr. Hunt, in Allgust, 1895.

2298 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Great Western Railway Bill.

LIQUIDATION OF CHARLEVILLE MEATWORKS.

Mr. LESINA (Glerrnont) asked the Secretary for Agricultare-

1. Why ·did not the Official Trustee in Insolvency, who was entrusted with the liquidation of the Charleville .Refrigerating, Preserving, and Boiling Down Company, Limited, take action to call up the unpaid capital liable to be called up?

2. Was this due to action taken by the Meat and Dairy Board?

3. Is it true that the board also went behind the back of the liquidator in an irregular manner, and agreed to waive all rents due by the lessee of the works, whereby the Government lost a sum of £50?

4. Does he propose to take any action in this matter?

5. Who are the members of the Meat and Dairy Board?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE r·eplied-

1. Because he was informed of the decision of the Meat and Dairy Board that the board did not desire any action should be taken in regard to the uncalled capital upon the completion of the sale of the works to the highest tenderer.

2. Yes. 3. No. The Meat and Dairy ;Board, without con

sulting the llquidator, decided to waive all rent due after the 31st July, 1909.

4. This question should be addressed to the Ron. the Treasurer.

5. The Secretary for .Agriculture, Messrs. E. G. E. Scriven, G. Phillips, W. W. Hood, and W. D. Lamb.

COST OF COAL TESTS AT DAWSON AND CALLIDE. Mr. BRESLIN (Port Curtis) asked the

Secretary for Mines-(a) The total cost of raising 220 tons of coal at

the Dawson and of delivering same to the Admiralty in 1907?

(b) The total expenditure to date in boring operations on the Dawson?

(c) What is the total sum of State money expended in testing the Dawson?

(d) What is the total sum of State money expended in testing the Call ide?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES CHon. J. G. Appel, Albert) rep!ied-

(a) £3,567 3s. 1d. (b) £5,363 13s. 2d. (c) £9,713 7s. 8d. (d) £100.

GLADSTONE JETTY RAILWAY APPROACH.

Mr. BRESLIN asked the Treasurer-Will he allow me, as member for the district, to

peruse papers and correspondence ill:~eonnection with the construction of the railway approach at Gladstone Jetty?

The TREASURER (Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn, Enoggem) replied-

Yes; the papers will be available at the Treasury at any time the hon. member wishes to call.

AGRICULTURAL BANK AcT.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER (Maranoa) asked the Secretary for Agriculture, without notice-

Seeing that four Bills are now before the Rouse t.hat were not on the Government programme, when does he propose allowing the Bill to amend the Agricultural Bank Act heing dealt with this session?


It is not my intention to table that Bill this session.

Mr. MANN (Gai1·m) asked the Secretary for Agriculture, without notice-

Has he lately received any complaints fronL Atherton regarding the unsatisfactory working of the Agricultural Bank Act? If so, what action does. he intend to take?


! have not received any information. If the hon. member will give notice of the question for tomorrow, I will make inquiries.

RIGHTS IN WATER AND WATER CON-SERVATION AND UTILIZATION BILL.

THIRD READING. On the motion of the TREASURER, this.

Bill was read a third time, passed, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council, by message in the usual form.

REPORTS ON KELSEY CREEK LANDS

On the motion of Mr. FERRICKS (Bou:en)r it was formally resolved-

That there be laid on the table of the House-l. A copy of reports to the I,ands Department,

ha,·ing reference to the quality and area of the Kelsey Creek lands.

2. A copy of reports, in possession of the Treasurer, bearing on the question of the construction of a tramline from the Proserpine Central Mill to· Kelsey Creek.

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL. PROPOSED INITIATION IN COMMITTEE.

On this Order of the Day being read, the House, on the motion of the SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. W. T. Paget,. llfackay), went into Committee to consider the desirableness of introducing the BilL

The SECRETARY FOR RAILvYAYS moved-

That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to authorise the construction of a railway across VVestern Queensland, and connecting with th~ existing Southern, Central, and Northern Rmlways, being 1,282 miles in length or thereabouts; to delineate the route of the said railway; to define certain railway districts for the said railway; and to authorise the immediate acquirement by theRtate of the Hampden-Mount EIJ\ott Railway, and make provision for other matters incidental thereto.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS moved that the Chairman do now leave the chair, report progress, and ask leave t{l sit again.

Mr. LENNON: J\Ir. Grant--The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The message

from the Governor has not been received. l\fr. MURPHY: Blunder No. 1. Question put and pasoed. The House resumed. The AcTING CHAIR

MAN reported progress, and the Committee obtained lease to sit again at a later hour of the day.

The PREMIER: I beg to present a message from His Excellency the Governor.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER announced the receipt of a message from the Govern?r .recommending that the necessary appropriatiOn be made to give effect to the provisions of the BilL .

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS, the Deputy Speaker left the chair, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole.

G1·eat Western [2J, NovEMBEn.J Railwa,y Bill. 2299>

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE. Question stated-That it is desirahle th&t a Bill he introduced

to authorise the construction of a railway across \Vestern Queensland, and connecting with the exist~ Jn~ Southern, Central, and Northern Railways, ~('l;ng 1,282 miles in length or thereabouts; to ctebn~ate ~he rou~e ~f the said railway; to define certain railway d1strwts for the said railway; and t,o authorise the immediate acq.uiremel?-t by the State of the Hampden-Mount Ellwtt Rmlway, and make prov1s1on fm· other matters incidental thereto.

Mr. LENNON: Considering the stupendous nature of the work proposed under this Bill and the large sum involved in its constructio~ -the comtruction of 1,282 miles of railway at about £3,{)00 per mile would involve an expenditure of £4,000,000-it seemed to him that a very great deal of unnecessary haste '~as shown in putting tpe Bill through at that time upon the slender mformation han. members had to guide them in coming to a decision upon it. Certainly M:r. Amos had made a report-he had gone through the country b:y: motor-car, and had made a report that might have been asked for by a leading journal with the view of showing what sort of country it was, whether it was suitable for carrying sheep or something of that sort. But it did not contain a single iota of information to guide the Committee in coming to a decision regarding the construction of this transcontinental railway by the route indicate~. Members had only five minutes ago r~eiVed the report of the Railway CommissiOner on the matter. What. sort of guide was a report from the Commissioner on this railwa;Y line, when he bad not an opportunity of gomg over the route. or having it surveyed? The survev made was not <'ven a flying survey; it was a motor-car survey.

The PREMIER: What are you going to say on the second reading of the Bill if you say all this now? '

l\lr. LENNON: He was not going to make a long address, but he was going to conclude with _an amendment which he rQgarded as very Important, and he thought it necessary before submitting that amendment to refer to one or two matters in the l'eport. :Mr. Amos said-

The whole of the country I travelled over is eminently suitable for sheep, but lower down the Cooper, Diamantina, and Georgina water I understand that owing to the large extent ~f flooded count!Y it would at present be a risky business carry1ng sheep, but that eventually, with a complete telegraph and telephone service installed so that i~formation could be sent from the head~ of !h~r:d~ers re floods, conditions would be quite ~hat one clause in the report was amply eufficwnt to cause members to hesitate before committing themselves to this particular route and to ask fol' further information. As ~ matter of fact hon. members opposite were well aware that members on that side were all thirsting fol' information. Thev did not condemn the idea of making a railway into the Western countrv.

The PREMIER: No; but what YOU al'e thir·sting for is an excuse. ·

Mr. LENNON: No; they desired no excuse at ~I. He was not giving any excuse; he was ~1vm~ l'easons why they should hasten slowly m this matter. This was the lar,-est railway proposal that had ever been put' before that House. The scheme mi_g·ht or might not lee a first-class scheme. At this stage he was not condemning the scheme. But there were other schemes. There was a scheme propounded by Mr. Wilson; there was a scheme

put forward by the pastoralists, which was published in the local papers; and there were· members on his side of the House who might have schemes of their own. He was quite satisfied that some members on that side of the House had a greater personal knowledge of the \V estern country than the whole of the members on the other side.

Mr. \VHirE: QueAtion !

Mr. LENNON: There was one member on that side whose business it was to travel overthat country frequently, who was familiar with its conditions, and who had more know-· ledge of the country than all the men on the other side of the House.

The line can be called a surface one throughout, although there may be as much as 30 miles in all on which shallow cuttings will he required. It is questionable whether there will be any cutting as deep as 10 feet. Fancy a man coming with a report and saying

that in a railway of 1,280 miles [4 p.m.] there might be as much as 30 miles

in all of which shallow cuttings would be required! It was mere guesswork. There was another clause, on page 3, which. said-

Water.-There is a very little natural permanent water on the line, and, except in a few instances, artificial supplies will be required for locomotive purposes; also, before opening the land for closer settlement, it may be " good business" for the Lands Department to provide water by sinking " hundreds " of bores, adding the cost of same to. the price of the land. There are natural springs at Curracunya, near Hungerford. The Elizabeth Spring, on Diamantina waters, is said to ftow about 1,000,000 gallons per day, and runs Spring Creek for 15 miles or so. The bore and well water 1:1.ppears to vary in quality, but as a rule is verygood. In some instances treatment may be required before using in the locomotive.

Here they were going to run a railway over that country, and it was just possible that the water would be useless for raising steam in the locomotivc:>s. They were taking a leap in the dark on the slender information that they had· before them.

The PREMIER: Are you not proving that you have got too much information?

1'Ir. LENNON: He had too much information for the hon. gentleman. They were not opposed to the opening of the Western countr_y by railway at all. But they wanted to do 1t in a proper way, and to select the best .rot:te. They did not want any of the centralisatiOn that existed in the Southern States. Queensland always enjoyed a splendid reputation in that respect through having gone in for decentralisation of her railway system, so that the various ports of the State could be developed by their own trade. He appealed to members on the other side of the House to· continue that excellent system.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: This proposal does that.

Mr. LENNON: Underlying the proposar was the desil·e to bring everything to Brisbane. (Government laughter.) Of course, he might be wrong, and he should be glad to veloped by their own trade. He appealed to the :Minister for Public Works, to the senioi' member for Townsville, and to the hon. member for Moreton, and others who controlled large businesses, as they did, if they had a. proposal submitted to them to expend a large sum in a hu;re undertaking like this, would· they ;ro into it so readily as they were going into it in this case? Certainly not. They would take· time by the forelock, and look round and get advice upon it. They would

Mr. Lennon.]

'2300 Great TVestern [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Bdl.

get the best advice, and see if they were justified in "ganging forward," to quote the words of the hon. gentleman opposite. They would not " gang forward " so hastily as they were doing on this occasion. He did not want to delay the matter, seeing that it was rather irksome to the Chief Secretary if he (Mr. Lennon) spoke at all, and he would conclude by moving his am<>ndment-That all the words after the word "That" be omitted, with the view of inserting the following words:-

Before the Committee affirms the desirableness -of introducing the Great Western Hailway Bill, it is advisable that tht•se railway proposals be submitted for the consideration of experts to be appointed to report on the Pngineering, pastoral, agricultural, mining, and commercial aspects of tbe Government's railway proposals.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: 'The deputy leader of the Opposition evidently ·des:red that this railway proposal should not be proceeded with during this session.

Mr. CORSER: It is being made a party ques:tion.

:!'rlr. LENNON : \V e are prepared to come back after Christmas.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The hon. gentleman said he was prepared to come back after Christmas. So was he prepared to do so, but the amendment of the hon. ·gentleman was not moved with the object of the House coming back after Christmas, for if they waited for a report such as the hon. ·gentleman outlined it certainly could not be made between now and the end of the year.

Mr. LAND: The other report was made very -quickly.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Mr. Amos was instructed by himself and the ·Commissioner to visit the \Vestern country to ·prepare a report as to the desirableness of constructing a railway the proposal for which was now before the Committea. :".Ir. Amos was one of the ablest survey officers in the Railway Department.

Mr. O'SuLLIVA!-1: But when you press him <for time he must scamp it.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: l'vir. Amos was a man who had many years of 'Practical experience of such work.

l\1r. MURPHY: He says that such a line will not pay.

The 8ECRI~TARY FOR RAILWAYS: Although J\Ir. Amos travelled over that route by motor-car, it was the very best means by which he could travel over it. But it did not necessarily mean that a man should travel in a buggy at the rate of 5 or 6 miles an hour in order to thoroughly examine such country as that. There were no engineering difficulties in the road.

Mr. HARDACRE: He does not say that. Mr. HAMILTON: Why not table all the reports

you have in the department on this territory? The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS:

1\Ir. ~\mos was a very able ofiicer, and he presented a very full and comprehensive report on the country over which he travelled. The report was sufficient for the project they had in view.

i\Ir. ALLEN : You are easil v satisfied. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS:

The Railway Commissioner also presented a report on the matter.

Mr. FOLEY: Which says absolutely nothing. Mr. LENNON: Did he go over the route? Mr. ALLEN: Fancy spending £6,000,000 on

a. report like that!

[Mr. Lennou,

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope that the hon. member for Bulloo will keep quiet while the Secretary for Rarlways Js speaking. He will have his opportunity of addressing the House afterwards. (Hear, hear!)

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The Commissioner went very fully into the matter, and, in reply to the interjection of the deputy leader of the Opposition, it was not necessary for the Commissioner to travel over the route of each railway to report on it. The Commissioner took the reports of his officers, and it was necessary that he should take the reports of his officers. The head of a department such as the Railway Department could not possibly traveL over every corner of the country he controlled.

Mr. LENNO:N: It is not an ordinary railway, you know.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It was not an extraordinary railway.

Mr. LENNON: 1,280 miles. The SECRETARY FOR RAIL\VAYS:

It was proposed to build the railway over exceedingly easy country, and the report of Mr. Amos fully covered the country. The question of where the railway should start and finish was very fully considerd by the Government after receiving :Mr. Amos's report, and the Government came to the conclusion that the project as set forth in the p)ans men~ioned in the Chamber last week, and mcluded m the Bill which he had in his hand, was a project that would best serve to open up the whole of the Western part of the State. He hoped the amendment would not receive that support which would put off this project for at least twelve months.

Mr. FERRICKS: You have not told us why the amendment should not be accepted. You have not touched the amendment yet.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It was his intention, after the first reading of the Bill was carried, to announce that he would take the second reading of the Bill on Tuesday next. He had a quantity of information which was being collected at his request, which he desired to present to the House on the second reading, and when that was done he did not think there would be any objection to the deputy leader of the Opposition moving the adjournment of the dehate.

The PRE;JHER: Not if we waste all day today. No, no!

OPPOSITION MEMBERS interjecting, 1\Ir. O'ScLLIVA!-1: Do you want to force it

through? Another LABOUR :'IIEMBER: The dictator !

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He had some valuable information to give to the House, and he hoped members would wait until they got it, and see if the proposal were a good thing or not. It was the best _information procurable by every department m the State. He hoped hon. members would see the utility of allowing the Bill to be read a first time.

Mr. PAYNE (Mitchell): He would not have risen at all but for a remark made by the Minister for Railways. As one who had some knowledge of this particular route, he could not help being struck with the remarks ?f the Minister-that there were no obstacles m the way. Why, some of the biggest bridges of any railway they had in Queensland would be required on this railway.

Great Western [24 N OVEMllER.] Railway Bill. 2301

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS; That is not an obstacle.

Mr. PAYNE: There were streams to be croqsed by bridges which wou:d cos't thousands of pounds. Were they not obstacles? He heard the hon. member for Maryborough make a remark about it being a party question. So far as he was concerned, it was not a party question.

The PREMIER: \V e will see when the vote comes.

Mr. PAYNE: He claimed to have some knowledge of this particular locality, and he welcomed any railway that would open up the Western distr:ct, but he was opposed to this particular railway because the Government were not taking the right route. The route was being taken south-west of Charleville, and it would cross big streams on the way. He did not know what benefit that was going to be, but he hoped they would get some information about it later on. The Minister tried to make some capital out of the delay that would be caused by the amendment; but people had been out there twenty-five years without a railway.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS; That is no reason why they should wait another year.

Mr. PAYNE: Quite so; but to build a line involving an expend1ture of £8,000,000 or £10,000,000 on the report of a man who made a flying trip over the route in a motor-car was ridiculous. He hoped to be able to show the Government that the proposed route was not in the best intereHt of Queensland. This matter should not be hurried, but full information ;rhould be obtained. If they could get a better route, the delay would not hamper the people out there very much. Th:s should not be made a party question ; and as far as members of the Opposition were concerned every member was going to vote according to his conscience, and he hoped members on the other side would do the same.

Mr. LESINA (Clermont) was opposed to the amendment. He thought the motion moved by the Minister for Railways was an excellent one, and he would like to see it adopted unanimously. (Hear, hear!) If the deputy leader of the Opposition had moved that a referendum of the people be taken on the question, the same amount of time would have been taken up, and he believed 85 per cent. of the people would have voted in its favour.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS; Hear, hear!

Mr. LESINA: This was going to be one of the big"est and one of the be,t things ever brought forward for the benefit of Queensland. For many years he had held the opinion that our trunk lines should be linked up, and he was content to go by the opinions of the experts, Mr. Amos and Mr. Thallon, as well as common sense. This country wanted railway communication, and wanted it expeditiously; and one of the things for which the Government deserved credit was the fact that in this matter they had taken a wide statesman-like view of the situation. (Hear, hear!) Nothing better could have been brought forward for the development of Queensland; and he was sorry the Labour

• party had taken up the attitude it had taken up in this matter. As to referring this matter to a committee, who would anooint the committee? The Government would take

care to appoint a committee that would not brmg in a hostile report to delay the construction of the line.

Mr. ALLEN: Corruption!

Mr. LESINA: That was not corruption; it was carrying out the policy of the party. If the Labour party sat on the Government benches to-morrow, and had a railway schemebefore the House, and they were me·t with an amendment of this description, and it was decided to appoint a committee, they would appoint their own men.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: And those in opposition would disagree with the appointment.

Mr. LESINA: Yes. No Government scheme would satisfy an Opposition. When an Opposition ceased to oppose, their occupation was gone. The Opposition must necessarily find fault with the policy of the Government; but there were things which all parties could try to put through.

Mr. LENNON: Did you support the Port Alma Railway?

Mr. LESINA: Yes. :1\Ir. LENNON: You did?

Mr. LESINA: Yes, strongly. Mr. MANN,: And he opposed it strongly.

(Laughter.) Mr. LESINA: Queensland wanted railway

construction, and wanted this linking up of the trunk lines. It would cost m1llions, but Queensland was in a better position than ever to develop its industries; and the Government that did this work would deserve welt of the electors, and would get their reward in due time. He trusted that the amendment would be defeated and the resolution carried.

The PRR:\IIER: Hon. members opposite would readily believe him when he said that if he was to accept this amendment as a gage of battle--

Mr. HAMILTON: You are trying to make it a party question yourself by those words.

The PREMIER: As a party move deliberately adopted by the Opposition--

Mr. LENNON: I disclaim that entirely.

The PREMIER: If he understood it as such members on the other side knew him well' enough to believe that he would be quite prompt to pick it up.

Several OPPOSITION MEMBERS interjecting, The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I

hope the Chief Secretary will be allowed to, proceed without repeated interruption.

The PREMIER: But while that was true, it was not to make that announcement that he rose. He rose to appeal to the leader of the Opposit:on to withdraw his amendment. He was aware that at least two members on this side knew a good deal of the country through which the railway was gomg. However they might differ about the proposal, it must be admitted that it was a very important proposal in regard to the future development of Queens!and; and, that being so, wasit not their duty to try and have it discussed apart from party feeling?

Mr. LENNON: Did I show any party feeling about it?

The PREMIER: The Government werebringing this forward believing that it would be one of the best pieces of business done for·

Han. W. J{idston.]

~302 G-reat Western [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Bill.

many years in Queensland. He was not pledged to any particular route; he was not pleading for 50 miles further east, or 50 miles further west.

Mr. FERRICKS: You did not give us that information yesterday.

The PREMIER: The Government, after getting the best information available, had shown on the map the route which they considered on the whole to be the best route. That was what the map meant. Suppose the hon. gentleman had a scheme to propose, and wanted to give an rdea of what he considered to he the best route, was not that what he would have done? They all believed this was a desirable thing.

Mr. MANN: I do not believe in it at all; that's plain.

The PREMIER: If the House thought this was a bad proposal, then the House could object; but should they not first know what the proposal was? What was the good of beating about the bush and stirring up bad feeling at the gateway of the thing? Why could not members let the :Ylinister for Railways put his proposal before them? Why not he_ar his second-reading speech, and his detailed reasons not only for the general project but for the details of the route, and then let memhers on either side exercise their judgment? The members of the Government party knew that he had asked them to consider the m":tter on non-party lines; and he would exceedmgly regret if business of such importance ~hould be degraded by being made a party -questwn.

Mr. LENNON: You are the only one that is doing so.

The PREMIER: Hon. members knew that he was always quite prompt to accept a challenge of that sort.

Mr. HARDACRE: You are trailing your coat now.

The ACTING CHAIR:YIAN: Order!

The PREMIER: Hon. members knew that he was al~ays prompt to take up a challenge of that kind; but he was pleading for the matter. to be discussed as an important piece of busm.:;ss, . apart from party feeling and party preJudwes. Surely it would be a good thing_ if they could open up Western Queensland m that comprehensive way!

Mr. RYLAND: It can be done in a less expensive way.

The PREMIER: He did not know that any member really objected to the proposal altogether. He was not at present asking

anyone to express a judgment on [4.30 p.m.] the proposal or the details of . the proposal. This was not the

tir:>e to settle that question. It was a fair th~n~ that hon. mem,bers should permit the Mmrster, who had given so much attention to the matter, to lay before them fully the reasons which had induced the Government to brml'{ ~orward the proposal just as it was. The _Mimster for Railways ha.d announced that rf he was allowed to introduce the Bill to_-day, so t~at han. members could get the Btll placed. 111 their hands, he was prel'ared to make. his second-reading speech and give all the mformatitm at his disposal on Tues:Jay, and . then allow the debate to be ad-

, ]our ned trll next day.

Mr. LENNON: You objected to him making · that arrangement.

f II on. W. J{ idston.

The PREMIER: He entirely objected to that arrangement if there was going to be obstruction shown in this way at the very beginning of the thing, but if it was taken as important busines-s-the sort of business that ought to be conducted in a rational kind of way-he would be very pleased if the Minister made that arrangement. The Government wanted to give the House the fullest information they had. They thought the information they had justified them in making the proposal, and they wanted that information put before hon. members before they decided the question.

Mr. li'ERRICKS: We should have had the information six weeks ago.

The PREMIER thought it was desirable, on the whole purview of the question, that the leader of the Opposition should not meet it in the way he had-that he should allow the Bill to be introduced and all the information put before membel'S. It was a matter that deserved of the most ample discussion, and surely the right thin_g was to gtlt the Bill introduced first and get all the information the Minister had in his possession, and then if hon. members opposite liked to move ,such a motion, good and well. If the hon. member liked to oppose or amend the motion good and well, and let the House decide. Surely in a matter of this importance· the wise thing was to get the Minister's proposal and his statement before hon. members made up their minds.

Mr. HARDACRE: He ought to have given us that information now.

The PREMIER: For those rea•sons he would appeal to the leader of the Opposition to withdraw his motion and allow the Bill to be introduced, "nd let the Minister make his .statement; and then hon. members could discuss it as amply and fully as they liked. They would then be justified, if they thought it _was not a good thing .. in taking up the attitude they had, and they could ma.ke an appeal to both sides of the House; but there was absolutely no appeal to reason if they once started in that way.

Mr. HARDACRE: You started in this way, not us.

The PREMIER : 1viembers on both •sides of the House knew quite well that what he was saying was true. He would again appeal to the leader of the Opposition to withdraw his motion and allow the Bill to be tabled, and hon. members would then see actually what the proposal was. They could then get the Minister'.s statement on tlie second reading on Tuesday, and then discuss the proposal as amply as they wished, and amend it in any way bon. members liked. '

Mr. LENNON: When the Secretary for Railways was addressing the Committee he made an offer that after his second-reading speech, the whole particulars of which would find their way into Hamard, he would be willing that he (Mr. Lennon) should move the adjournment of the debate to consider the matter, but the Premier objected to that most indignantly. 'The hon. member's attitude then was quite different to his present attitude. The han. member was quite indignant with the Secretary for Railways for making such an offer, but now he has thrown out the olive leaf and got into a more reasonable frame of mind, and he (Mr. Lennon) was prepared to admit there was something in the hon. gentleman's contention. It was a very important measure, and the Premier

,Groot Western [ 24 NOVEMBER.] . Railway l.lill. 2303

"bad stated he did not object to the route being 100 m1les further out or nearer to the coast than was shown on the map. The han. member aleo called attention to the fact that it. was a matter of great importance, which they all admitted, and that it was one of the best proposals ever put before the country, If it was one of the best proposals ever put before the country, let them by all means be very careful to adopt the best route.

The PREMIER: Hear, hear !

Mr. LENNON: That was what the Opposition were labouring for, and his action in movmg the amendment had elicited from the Premier the fact that he was open to reason and was not absolutely aommitted hard and fast to the route shown on the map, and consequently that put a.different complexion on the matter; and to show that there was no foundation whatever for the Premier's statement that members of the Opposition were actuated by the desire to make it a party question--to prove beyond all possible -doubt that that was a misstatement of facts, if he had the approval of members on that side of the House, he would accept the Premier's advice and beg leave to withdraw the .amendment until the second reading of the Bill.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. MANN was sorry that the leader of ihe Labour party had withdrawn his amendment. He was only sorry the han. member did not make his amendment very much wider, and ask for a Roval Commission to report en the best agricultural districts in Queensland that could be opened up, and the . amount of railway required to make the land available. 'l'he Premier was always rising in the House and telling han. members that he feared an invasion from Japan or some other coloured country, and he (Mr Mann) would a.sk how many people would he settle along the route of that railway? He ventured to say the building of 12 miles of railway in the Herbert electorate, branching df the Tolga-J ohnstone line, would oottle more people than they would settle by the expenditure of £3,000,000 of money on the wild jumbuck sDheme the Premier had put before the Committee. He was opposed to the railway-lock, stock, and barrel. The Japanese did not want the sparselv populated arid ·country. \Vhat they wanted was the fine patches along the coast, and £3,000,000 of money judiciously spent in the Cairns, Herbert, Burnett, and other coastal districts would settle 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 of people, but the expenditur"' of £3,000,000 on the proposed railway would settle no more than 500. He was opposed to the scheme, because it was not in the best interests of Queensland, and that was not the desire that animated the Premier. It was the duty of the Federal Government to build a transcontinental railway for defen'Oe purposes. The best way to defend Queensland was to settle the strip of land along the coast-a strip of land that would carry a large population, and if the Government spent £3,00(},000 on this wild-cat scheme it would mean £3,000,000 less to spend in settling the coastal country. Did anyone suggest for a moment that' they would llettle the arid country in the 'vV est. which the han. member for Gregory claimed would only carry about eight head of stock to the square mile? The -Commis.sioner, in his report, compared the a-rea with the old country, and no doubt the ·Government in-

tend to tell the poor immigrants that by means of a rrulway they have opened up a huge area of the vV estern country; but they would not tell them that the average rainfall was only 8 inches a year, and that they must take up 40,000 acres of that country in order to make a living. He would like to ask the Secretary_ for Railways: Where was he going to get the labour to construct the proposed railway? Go where they liked in the agricultural districts and they would find the farmers and settlers crying out about the lack of labour, and if they brought immigrants to this country he claimed that 95 per cent. of them would go and work on the proposed railway line rather than go on the land. The Cairns Railway, with which he was intimately acquainted, he was safe in saying that of the 1,500 men who constructed that railway, at least 70 per cent. were newchums who came out as agricultural labourer-s.

Mr. D. Hl'NTER: You do not blame them? Mr. MANN: He did not blame them, but

was pointing out that the Government, in these good times, were going to start a boom policy, not because there was a lot of unemployed labour on the market but because labour was scarce and to give them an excu0e for bringing out more immigrants.

Mr. D. HUNTER: How do you like thatlabour scarce?

Mr. MANN: Yes; labour was .scarce in every district except the Brisbane <district, where the Government were bringing in shoals of immigrants. If one-tenth of the money required for the proposed railway was spent in the Burnett district, it would settle thousands and thousands of people, and how many woul<1 the proposed railway settle?

Mr. C'ORSER: \Ve will have more land settled . Mr. MANN: If the Committee gave leave

for the proposed railway to be constructed it would go on till they struck the fir-st bad times; then the Government would be face to face with this tronble. They had about four or five years more time in which to renew the present loans, and for the proposed works they would have to borrow close on £10,000,000 of money. How could they borrow more money if the times were bad, or how could they renew the present loans? It would m('an less men would be required in connection with the meatworks and sugarmills, and the very time the Government would require to ,step in and 'start a spirited public works policy to find work for the unemployed, they would be unable to borrow money and unable to renew the present loans save and except at a ruinous rate of interest. and they would have to hang up all their works.

Tho PREMIER: In spite of that, you tried t,) " sool " them on to another million.

Mr. MANN;, If it was a good thing to take over from the Cairns Shire Council the tramway that was built and run in the interests '()f the selectors, it would be a good thing to ta-ke over the Chillagoe-Etheridge Railway, which was run in the interests of a sy11dicate. He was entirely against the proposal, and would far rather see lines built to open up lands on the coast.

The PREMIER: None of this in your district. Mr. MANN: If there was any in his dis

trict it would not alter his position in the matter. He claimed the money should be spent in opening up the agricultural land-s in the Herbert district. The line he had asked for was the Milia Milia line, and ru deputation was coming down to the Minister to

Mr. 11--fnn,n.]

2304 Great Western [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Bill.

ask for a line out to Boar Pocket. Hon. members must bear in mind that the more money they spent on wild-cat schemes like the pr0sent proposal to run a huge railway through country with a 7-inch rainfall, the less money there would be to spend in opening the coastal lands wher0 there was a good climate.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Not necessarily.

Mr. MAN::'f: Any sane, £ensible man must realise that their borrowing power£ were limited. The Premier himself used to tell the Philp Government that they could not borrow a million of money, save at ruinous rates of interest.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN indicated that the han. member's time had expired.

Mr. HAMILTON: A big proposal of this kind should never have been introduced at the tail end of the session. They were now at the tail end of the session, and had still a lot of important measurco-s to put through, and with the number of sitting days at their disposal there was not a member of the House who could go into the details of the schemes that were to come along, let alone into the details of a large proposal like this, involving possibly an expenditure of £10,000,000 or £12,000,000. Such a proposal deserved the special att~mtion of the Government and of the House, and the Premier would have been well advised if he had said, "I will get all the information I can with regard to this matter, and call a special se,sion for its consideration, just as we had a special session to deal with federation." At present members had only very meagre information on the subject, and all that information was not correct. Let anyone compare the report made by 1\lessrs. Hume and \Voodbine on the countrv from Windore.h to Camooweal in 1900 with the report of Mr. Amos, and he would see that there was a great difference between them. Probably the country was not so bad as it was represented to be by J'vlessrs. Hume and 'vVoodbine, and not so good as it was represented to be by Mr. Amos. If they sp]it the difference between the two accounts, thev would probably arrive at the truth respecting that country. Members of the Opposition were not against all the proposals contained in this scheme, but it was rather too much to ask them to aDcept the scheme as a whole. The Premier told them that afternoon that he was not tied down to any route. But only one route had so far been mapped out. He (l\1r. Hamilton) thought they should have a report on different routes for a trans.State railway-for the present proposal was not a transcont:nental railway, but a trans-State railway with two dead ends~before they were acked to come to a decision on the subject. If the Committee accepted the proposal now put before them, they would be tvim; themselves down to a big loan policy of £10,000,000 or £12,000,000.

Mr. MURPHY: That is the real position. l\Ir. HA3riLTON: Ye-s; that was the real

position~they would tie themselves down to what he mi~ht term the bon . .,-entleman's hip: "Borrow, boom, and burst " policy. Members representing the \Vestern district harl supported railways in agricultural districts pretty well during the last few years: th<>v had never shown any opposition to such ra'l· ways, and he did not think members reprc· P.enting a<rr:cultural districts should approar h a proposal like that now before the Committee in a parODhial spirit. There were 20,000 or 30,000 workers in the 'Vestern district, and

[Mr. Mann.

they deserved some consideration. But, while he was prepared to support railway extension. in the Western district, he did not say that. he would support every proposal put forward. for building railways in the 'Vestern district. He -and other members of the Opposition. wanted to see railways built which would' conserve to Queensland ports the trade which, geographically belonged to them.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: And the Government: scheme is not that.

The PREMIER: l\ly word. it is. Mr. HAMILTON: There were many fea-

tures o£ the scheme now submitted to the Committee that Opposition members could support without voting for the scheme asa whoie. No member on either side of the House had sufficient information to justify him in voting for the scheme as a wholec. Certainly no member on the Opposition side had such information, and no members on the other side had sufficient information to justify them in supporting the proposal, unless they had received -some secret information from the Premier in order to whip them into line.

:Yir. WHITE: You have not sufficient information to oppose it.

l\lr. HAMILTON: They were not opposing it. They were only opposing it on tho information submitted to them, and he thought they were justified in doing that. He had not time to refer to the reports on the proposal, but he knew that there were a lot of inaccuracies in both the report of the Commissioner for Railways and the report of 11r. Amos. Mr. Amos went into Boulia, and then out to the Georgina country, but the route he finally selected was a different route altogether -from Boulia, following a line on the r:ghthand side o£ Burke and Wills's River. ThB" information furnished in 1\Ir. Amos's report was very meagre. He did not blame Mr. Ames for that, be-cause he only pa,sed through the country hy motor·car, and no person could jud''" a farge extent of country from the little he travelled over in that way. It mivht l•e rood country that "·as traversed by the traveller, and further bac-k the country might be rotten. In another place' the track miP'ht be over bad country. and further back the country might be splendid. But his contention in this matter was that members had not sufficient information to justifv them in accepting the whole programme of the Government.

Mr. MANN: The han. memrer who had just sat down had suggested that he had approached this proposal in a parochial spirit. In his speech he had advocated that all the agricnltural country from the Bloomfield down to Bundaberg should be opened up by railways. Surely that was not mAnifesting- a parochial spirit! If the J apane'e could obtain nossPss;on of the countrv from Bloomfield to Bundaherg-, they would. be safsfied to leave· to us the arid \Vest. and he held that it was very dc"irable that the coastal country shonlrl be ·properlv settl.-,d. "Where were they f!oing to get survcvors for both the coastal lines and the proposed railway in the \Vest ern country? If a member WPnt to the Secretary for Railwavs. anil a'3ked for a coast linP to h~ ~urv<>ved, the hon. rrentlcman would tdl tbat mf.mber that hP could not rret survevors for the ''"ark; and if the sq•1attcre puehed on the Premipr to construct, this iuml•uck line of his at lio:htninq sneed, he would Fke to know whore thC'V WPrP to fYf't SUrY~yors for raj}ways: ~n ~rrrirnltnral districh~.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Ord·r! Mr. MAUGHAN: Question!

Great Tf'"estern [24 NovEMBER.] 2305

Mr. MANN: The bon. member could call question, if he liked, but--

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. member has disobeyed my call to order several times. I hope he will respect my call, and deal with the question before the Committee.

Mr. MANN: Yes; but the bon. member for Ipswich should not cry "Question."

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. MANN: He wished to point out to the Committee that we were short of surveyors, and short of railway sleeper.s-that. was shown to be the case by the evidence of Mr. Amosand if the Government went on with th1s jumbuck line to please the &ql\atters, the agricultural districts would suffer. How many agricultural lines had been asked for during the last few years?

The SECRE1'ARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Ye are building quite a number at the present time.

Mr. MANN: He had often heard members of the Governm.ent argue in favour of building railwavs in advance of sett-lement. Well, there was 'settlement along the coast in places where there were no railways, and there were millions and mi!lions of acres of good land in the Cairns district, the vVoothakata district, and the Herbert district waiting to be opened up by railwavs. \Vhen the Scottish Commissioners were 'here they were supplied with a. ma.p from the La.nds Department, showing 46,000 acres of land which were a.vailable in those districts, and not an acre of tha.t wa.s available without railway communication. The Premier laughed the other day when he spoke about the difficulty of getting sleepers for this ·western railway. :Mr. Amos, in his report, sa.id he did not know where they were going to . get sleeper,s. While there was plenty of timber in the coastal districts, there was very little fit for railway sleepers, only ironba.rk, bloodwood, and hickory being used for tha.t purpose.

Mr. CoRSER: There i-s a. good deal loft yet.

Mr. MANN: There might be a good deal of that timber yet, but if this railway scheme

went on it would take at least [5 p.m.] 3,500,000 sleepers, without touch·

ing the coastal line or any agricultural lines at all.

The ACTIN.G CHAIRMAN indicated that the hon. member's time had expired.

HoN. R. PHILP (Townsville): In talking as they were doing at this stage they were only beating the- wind. (Hea.r, hea.r !) They were asked to give the Minister permission to bring in a Bill.

Mr. MURPHY: We opposed the Port Alma Railway at thi" stage, you know. (La.ughter.)

HaN. R. PHILP: He thought tha.t it would only be a fair thing to allow the Minister to bring in his Bill, so that they might see what it contained, a.nd what the Government proposed doing. This ra.ilway scheme to connect the coa.st with the West was one of the finest railway schemes ever introduced by any Ministry.

Mr. M1TLLAN: You will have to wait until you see it.

Mr. FERRICKS: He know,s all about it. HaN. R. PHILI': AI! he knew about it

was the map he had seen. In Queensland they h_ad an enormous territory, and in some parts of Queensland they had done nothing with it. Western Queensla.nd might as well be in Papua. or India unless they built railwa.ys in

1910--7 B

it. At no time had Queensla.nd been in the position she was in to-day to enable her to build these railway,s. He did not know that any great favour was being done to the Western lessees under this Blll, because they would have to pa.y for the railway. The;i would have to pay at the initiation of the railwa.y, and if the line bega.n to pay the benefit would pass on to other people. That was one of the objections he had to the Bill --that they had to pay the 3 per cent. guarantee. He thought tha.t 2 per cent. was enough to pa,y for a. guarantee railwa.y. He had a.lways said so in the House, and he still a.dhered to that opinion that 2 per cent. was enough for a guarantee railway.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! HaN. R. PHILP: The scheme so far as

they could see from the skeleton issued w a.s a. good one, and they might allow the Minister to bring in the Bill, and present the' scheme to the House. He thought that the opening up of Queensland by railways was the best thing they could do. They ha.d no inland navigable rivers like they had in America, and they had to depend entirely on their railways, and every railway built into the Western country paid well. He ha.d always advocated railway systems everywhere. He ha.d opposed some lines, and he supposed he .would oppose ·some Jines again, but, on the whole, he had always given an independent support to railwa.ys brought into the House. He recognised tha.t the railway policy of a. country was the life blood of the country. If they had no railways built, where would they be to-day? There would be no people at all in the West but for the railwa.ys. He was surprised to hear the hon. member for Cairns say that he opposed this line, because no district had so much money spent in it in railwa.ys as Cairns. They spent £1,250,000 in building a railway a distance of 20 miles from Cairns, and it wa.s not a nice thing for the hon. member for Ca.irns to say that they should not build this line. The Western people always paid their sha.re of the loss on the railways of the State without having any railways of their own. They even had to pa.y for the deficiency on the Cairns Railway.

Mr. MANN: And they a.re still paying it, because of a badly selected route.

HaN. R. PHILP: Tha.t was pa,st and done with now. They were now asked to go in for a comprehensive ra.ilway rolicy in the West and along the coa.st, and any member who had any fa.ith in the future of Queensland at all should not hesitate to support a railway policy of tha.t sort. He was not wedded to any pa.rticular scheme. In fact, he did not like the present route in some respects and he would try to make it a better route.' The Minister said that it was not a party question and it was not a party question with him. (Hear.- hear!) They ought to try to pick the best route, orie that would pav best and could be built at the least expense.' That was all an ordinary man could promise to do. It should not be a party question at all, but should go forth as the opinion of the majority of the members of the House. He wa.s satisfied that they could make it a. good Bill. T~ey col!ld pick a sensible route and make It a ra.tlway that would redound to their credit for many years. He r<>p·ct.ted ihat Sir Thoma.s Mcilwraith's ra.ilwa.y scheme of twenty-seven years ago was not passed. If that ra.ilway had been built it would ha.vc meant doubling the population which they had in Queensla.nd to-day. But

Han. R. Philp.]

'2306 Great 1Yestern [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Bill.

it was not done then, and now they had the opportunity to do it they should do so. Why, South Australia, which had got a Labour Government, tabled proposa1s to borrow £6,000,000. Just fancy that amount . being borrowed for a small place like South Australia, with a small population and very .poor country as r;ompared to Queensland! lf South Australia could afford to borrow £6,000,000 then Queensland could afford to borrow £12,000,000.

Mr. NEVITT: That shows that we are not against borrowing for reproductive works.

HoN. R. PHILP: Every line built to the West in the past had paid, and why should not the lines to be built to the West in the 'future pay also? They had more p~J~storal country west of Charleville than they had east

·of it, and the country to the west was better pastoral country than that to the east, so if it

,paid in the past to build lines there, it should also pay in the future. The Commissioner, in his report, estimatEd that the country would •carr.v double the number of sheep Queensland had at the present time, if thi.s railway were built. He said it would carry from 21,000,000 to 24,000,000 more sheep than Queensland had at the present time. The railway would pass through some good countrv and also some indifferent country, and they had to make an average. So far as he could see, he believed that it would be a good thing to go to Camooweal, even if the Federal Government did not see their way to connect with it, because it was tho best part of the Northern Territory, and they would be able to get. the trade of the Barclay Tableland.

Mr. LENNON: \V e want the line to go from Camooweal to the Gulf.

HoN. R. PHILP: He did not think that would be the best line ; he would sooner see it go from Cloncurry to tho Gulf-to either Normanton or Burketown. (Hear, hear!) He wouid also like to see a connection made between Cunnamulla and Bourke, so that they could have one complete system right through Queensland and New South Wales.

Mr. RYLAND: This scheme will not give it to u.s.

HoN. R. PHILP : It was going a long way towards it, and when the connection was made thov would !hen have the whole eastern part of Australia connected by rail. He heard some hon. members object to the 3 ft. 6·inch gauge, because it was not the accepted gauge for Australia. What was the accepted gauge of Australia? They would find more mileage of railways constructed with the 3 feet 6-inch gauge than any other gauge in Australia. The 3· feet 6-inch gauge wa.s the best for a new country, as it was the 'Cheapest to open up the country. In New South 'Wales the gauge was 4 feet 8~ inches,

. ~;and it cost £12,000 per mile to build the railways there, as against £6,000 per mile in Queensland with the 3 feet 6·inoh gauge. Was it not better to have double the mileage of railways and the_ smaller gauge? Many countries in the world adonted th" 3 feet 6-inch gauge. The New Zealand railways were all nn t.he 3 feet 6-inch gauge, and in South Africa thev were all built- on tho 3 feet 6-inch gauge.

Mr. LENNON: Who spoke against the 3 feet 6-inch gauge for Queensland?

HoN. R. PHILP: It was mentioned yesterday in the House that 4 feet 8! inche3 was the accepted gauge.

,[Han. R. Philp.

Mr. LENNCJN: The accepted gauge for the Federal Government, but not condemning it for Queensland.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN indicated that the hon. member's time had expired .

Mr. MURPHY: They were told that this was a comprehensive railway policy, and they were able to understand that if they agreed to it, it meant a comprehensive loan policy. The hon. member for Cairns and himself were doubtful about the ability of Queensland or the advi,ability of this Parliament agreeing to a big loan policy at the present · time. It must be remembered that they had a Premier who was a heaven-born financier, a.nd the hon. gentlemn,n went through

. Queensland and drove the ,senior member for Townsville out of office.

Hon. R. PHILP: No. My own friends did that. (Laughter.)


Mr. MURPHY: The question was the consideration of the Government railway policy and the advisableness of building railways which would mean a loan policy being introduced. He was pointing out that the Premier told them that Queensland was going in for a big loan policy, yet only a few years ago he obtained office with the aid of a coalition which drove the Philp party from power on the understanding that he was to straighten the finances of the country, and there was to be no borrowing policy. When they came to the .second reading of the Bill he would give several quotations from the Financial Statements issued by the Premier's Government in which he condemned a borrowing policy. The Premier told them that his party were not bound .to any particu~ar route. Owing to the plausible speech which the Premier made, he had induced the leader of the Labour party to withdraw the amendment he made to the proposal. He did not know whether any report had been furnished by the Premier to any of the daily papers of Brisbane, but he noticed that it said in the papers that at a meeting of the Government partv it was agreed that the route submitted would not be gone away from. He did not know if there was any truth in that. If there wa,s, then it was not going to help the senior member for Townsville in getting what he called a better route for the railway. He asked the Minister a question yesterday about the taking over of the Mount Elliott Railway, and he hoped the hon. gentleman would answer it. He wanted to know the arrangements made with the Monnt Elliott Company for taking over that railway. He voted for the Mount Elliott Railway and the Etheridge Railway. and so did the hon. member for Cairns, in order to give railway communication to these districts.

Mr. ALLEN: You are sorry now. Mr. MANN: Not a bit sorry .

Mr. MURPHY: They were told that because the finances of Queensland were in suph a parlous condition they could not find the mm1ey to build Rtate railways to these nlaces. Now there was a proposal to take. the Mount Elliott Railway over, but in the Mount Elliott Act there was a provision that thev could not. t.ake that railwav over unless the Mount Elliott Company \vere willing- until after the expiration of fifteen years. How were they going to pay for that railway? And what was the necessitv for takin<r it over at the present time? Tbe Premier twitted the hon. member for Cairns with the fact that this railway was not in the district of that

Great Western [24 NOVEMBER. J Railwa,y Bill. 2307

ihon. member. It was in the Premier's dis. trict. The first section was going out from Rockhampton. Every railway policy -introduced since the Premier obtained power started from Rockhampoon. (Government laughter.) And if any member got up and objected to any of those railways going from Rockhampton, the Premier accused him of acting from a parochial standpoint and being animated by party spleen. Probably the !taking over of this railway would- cost an immense amount of money.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Probably not.

M:r. MURPHY: Probably the J\,linister would be able to tell the Committee the terms. Were the Government only going to pay what the line had cost the company, or were they going to pay an immense sum in order to get possession? So far as the great transcontinental railway was concerned, he would vote against it. He did not think it was good business to go into the market to borrow money at the present time. In about five years' time there was £14,000,000 or £15,000,000 of our loans falling due, and it would be well to abstain from going on the money market for a time. He supposed the increase in the public debt on account of this railway policy would be about £14 a head of the population. That did not trouble him very much, because the people who lent the money were not going to get their principal back.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: They don't want it back; they only want their interest.

Ron. R. PHILP: What about the Commonwealth Government taking over State debts?

Mr. ;\fURPHY: The Federal Government were not going· to take over our debts until there was unification ; and when they took our debts they would also take our railways.

Ron. R. PHILP: Will they? I don't think 130.

Mr. MURPHY: In April next there was to be a referendum on the question of allowing -the railway employe'es to come under the Federal Arbitration Act, and then the Federal 'Government would practically obtain control ·Of the State railways.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN indicated that the hon. member's time had expired.

Mr. MANN: The speech of the senior member for Townsville was one of the best argu ments against the hasty expenditure of loan money in connection with a big railway policy. If a proper survey had been made of -the Cll.irns Railway, jt would have been taken by a different route, and the Atherton Scrub would have been opened up with half the amount that was spent on the line.


Mr. MANN : He was only replying to the hon. member for Townsville. The Railway ·Commiwsioner, in making his estimate of what :the line was likely to produce, took the line 'from Hughenden to Winton, 132 miles, but in -that country there was a very much better rainfall than there was from Boulia to -Gamooweal. The hon. member for Townsville -said there was better country west of Charlr)--ville than east of Charleville. He would like -the hon. member to go before the Land Court .and try to get a decent rent for that country.

Hon. R. PHILP: With the building of this railway we shall be able to get increased :rents.

Mr. MANN: There might be some reason lfor building the railway if the result would be

to increase the rents; but in times of drought even thB guarantee of 3 per cent. would be worth nothing. The pa-storalists would mono. polise all the vehicles of the Railway Depart. ment in removing starving stock to good country favoured with a rainfall. If the Government sought to enforce the penalty on those squatters they would simply throw up their leases, and the Government would not be able to lease the holdings to others, and those people would have the Government by the wool. The Government could not collect the betterment tax in the Dalby to Bell Railway district.

The SECRET.\RY FOR RAILWAYS: The shire council would not do it; the department is doing it.

Mr. MANN: The Government had to step in and do the shire council's work.

Several HONOURABLE ::YlEMBERS conversing,


J\,1r. MANN: He was asking- what was the good of the squatters' guarantee in time of drought.


Mr. FORSYTH (Jforeton): The han. member for Cairns was afraid the squatters would not pay ·the 3 per cent. guarantee. He would ask the hon. member who it was that paid their rents during the terrible seasons the country passed through some years ago? It was the squatters; while a great m3;ny of the agricultural selectors had to get assistance. The hon. member's great cry was: Why build a railway out West; why not s'tick to the coast? He did not want the people in the West, who had '"borne the burden and heat of the day," to get railways. More than 55 per cont. of the total exports of Queensland were provided by the pastoralists in 1909; and if the hon. member expected other members to pass any line he wanted and allow everybody else to starve, he was mistaken. There were members on the Government side who knew a good deal about the country along the route of this railway; and though they might obtain more information, there was no reason for delay. As to what would happen if a big drought came, he supposed it would affect boiJh pastoralists and agriculturists; but if they were going on pessimistic lines, how was the country to progress ? They heard a good deal about the rainfall not being good; but that was the reason for railway construction in this country, so that stock could be shifted in time of drought to places where grass was available. There had been a great deal of complaint in regard to the route ; lbut the route could be varied. His idea was that the products of any district should go to the natural port of that district. (Hear, hear!) It would be a mistake to claim that all the produce of the far West should go into Townsville, for instance. And he thought there should be a port in the Gulf -to take the produce which naturally belonged to the Gulf district. That would only be a fair thing, and he was prepared to advocate that, and had alwc.ys advocated it. He did not care whether 1-he line was built to Burketown or Normanton, or to any other port, so long as it was tho

best port and would give tl1e [5.30 p.m.] people the shortest distance to

carry their products. Something should be done for that particular part of the country, because it had been suffe1·ing

Mr. Forsyth.]

2308 Great Western [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Bill.

for many years for want of railway comnmnication. The hon. member for Grcgvry made the statement that the present propo· sal was likely to lead to the old policy nf boom and burst. The conditions un•ler which money was raised to build proposed railways were altogether different from the £10,000,000 loan. The £10,000,000 loan was raised all at once, and the money was re· ceived when it was not wanted. But if tlwv passed a measure authorising the Government to raise money for the building of this railway, the Government would only go on the monev market when the monev was actually required. The £6,000,000 or £7,000,000 that would be required would not be raised all at once, but only as required. Therefore, there was no occasion for a b:>om and burst policy under those conditions. It would be a very good thing to link up all the present trunk lines, so tha,t if a drought was experienced, the people in those far V,· estern and Northern districts would be able to shift their stock and save millions and millions of pounds' worth of stock. The Commissioner fo~ Railways in his report stated that tho ra1lway was likely to be the means of open· ing up country that would carry 24,000,000 sheep, which would give an annual revenue of £222,000. Of course, all those items were problematical, but if anv one would look at the railway revenue for 'the past ·seven years -from the end of the drought-they would find that the railway revenue had doubled· and he saw no re.ason, if they had that great devclopment-whwh he believed would be a good thing for Queensland-why tho railway revenue should not again double i·tself within the next ten years. If they had' that extra revenue f'om -the railways, it would help Ill the future development of Queensland. He hoped the Secretary for Railways would be allowed to bring in the proposed Bill. and the~ hon. memb'.'rs would get all the infor· mailon they dos1red. He did not presume fo: one mon;ent that 1hoy would all agree w1th the pohcv as it stood, but they would h. ave a chance of discussing it. At this particular stage he thought j.t was a mistake to oppose the scheme. He honed to have a gc:od deal to say on the Bill: but the Com· m1ttee should allow the Minister to bring in the Bill, as hon. members would rthen be in a position to discuss the proposal more intelligently.

Mr. HARDACR~ (Leichhardt) called att-entw': to the wordmg of the resolution, as it was dl!ferent to the wording of most other resolutions for the introduction of Bills. Other resolutions read, " That leave be given to introduce a Bill," and nobody would object to. a matter of that kind, but the present resolutiOn read, " That it is desirable to introduce a Bill to construct a railway," etc. The leader of .the Opposition had moved an amendment, as he desired further information, and he (Mr. Hardacre) considered that that information should have been given at this stage, when they were asked to affirm whether it was desirable or not to do a cer· tain thing. As an understanding had been come to between the Premier and the leader of the Opposition to take the discussion on the second reading of the Bill after the Minister had given further information, he would refrain from discussing the matter now. But he wanted it to be understood that because they gave permission to introduce the Bill, so that they could see it, their full rights were reserved. just as if full action had been taken at this time.

[)l{r. Forsyth

Mr. COLLINS (Burh): When the Address. in Reply was being discussed he had men· tioned the fact that more than likely he would. be found opposed to this particular railway. The reports submitted by the Commissioner· and Mr. Amos did not give the information he wanted, as he wanted to know how manypeople were out in that part of Queensland at the present time. And he also wanted to· know how many people that particular part of Queensland would support under cattle and· sheep grazing. He had worked out a few figures himself, and, according to Mr. Amos's figures, he found that it would support a. population of 20,000 people. How much did that actually mean for the expenditure of over £4,000,000? Hon. members had to con· sider the fact that if they supported the building of this railwav they would also have· to support the loan policy. He had not suffi· cient evidence to warrant him supporting· the building of that railway, considering that it would not settle the number of people that he desired to see settled on the land. He had' heard over and over again about the· 24,000,000 sheep, but he wanted to know how many men and women that particular part of Queensland would support?

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS; This proposal means settling more men and women.

::\Ir. COLLINS: It did mean more men and· women, but it did not mean the addition of the same number of men and women that they would have if the money was spent in· other parts of Queensland. He was opposed· to the building of a railway practically on the borders of Queensland. That did not say he was opposed to a railway policy extending· the main lines out, say, from Rockhampton or Townsville. The proposed railway was to be built in the interests of a few sheep-owners, or a few of the financial institutions who· owned that part of Queensland. He would' like to know who was the owner of that part of Que-ensland.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Queens-land. '

Hon. R. PHILP : You are one of the owners.

Mr. COLLINS: He was one of the owners, but he did not own as much as the senior· member for Townsville.

On several HoNOURABLE MEMBERS inter--jecting,

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. RYLAND again interjected.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! Wheru the Chairman calls " Order" the hon. member for Gympie, as an old parliamentarian, should at once obey the call.

Mr. COLLINS: The proposal involved the· expenditure of millions of public money, and· they had had experience in the past with regard to the £10.000,000 loan. The workers were the people who suffered in the long run. \Vho was going to suffer in connection with· this policy of boom and burst? The Govern· ment knew full well that before long they would be replaced by others, and they wanted· to secure their own position before they were replaced. He was disposed to the proposal to build a railwa•y Fne in Western Queensland, as he believed it was possible to open up that part of Queensland with a great deal' less expenditure than the expenditure of over £4,{00,000 on one particular railway.

Mr. ALLEN (Bul/oo): Last session agricultural railways and mining railways were·

Great Tf' estern [24 NovEMBER.] Railway Bill. 2:31i9

. passed, and the most important industry in Queensland was neglected, and now they had mining members and agricultural members getting up and speaking against pastoral lines. That might not have been the intention of hon. members, but there was no .getting away from the fact that they had heard a lot of talk about building lines for sheep. He wanted to point out that in the past those sheep lines, that the·y heard so much fuss about, had paid, and in many instances the agricultural lines had not paid, an~ a_t t1mes they found the agriculturists obJectmg to pay up. He was much interested in the figures that had been quoted about the number of people those Western railways would settle. He did not think those figures were quite correct, inasmuch as only one person was allowed for every 60,000 acres, while on each of those blocks there would be one family, and there would also be the shearers and rouseabouts. There would also be a larg-e amount of money spent on improvements, which would provide a large amount of labour ; and then, when the produce was sent to a port. more labour would be required. Personally, he did not think tnP schemP the Government proposed was a .<"ood one. The Government had come to a decision in a hurry. There was too much of the' office. drawing- lines along- a map without suffiment regard for local conditions and local requirements. That was his objection. He hoped the proposal would not be made a party measure, and that members would g-et a chance later on of dealing- with the details of the scheme. With the ultimate object he had every sympathy. They wanted lines in the West to open up the country, and it would be a good thing- for Queensland when that was done, but at the same time it was just_ as well to do the thing- as cheaply as poss1ble and make the best possible job. Did the proposal of the Government do that? He was waiting for information. He would not have spoken only some hon. members seemed to think it was a g-ood thing to have a chip at the pastoral industry· all the time; and many of them forgot the faot that besides t!'e pastoralists, there were dependent on that mdustry a: great number of working men and their families.

Mr. MURPHY wished to point out to the hon. member for Moreton and the hon. member for Bulloo that the hon. member for Cairns had not opposed the building of all rail ways in pastoral districts. As a matter of fact, during the time ·the hon. member had been in the House he had voted for several railways to pastoral centres. A short time ago we had a visit from the Scottish Commissioners, and the question they asked the Secretary for Lands and the Secretary for Agriculture_ wa~ where were they going to settle the 1mm1grants they wanted to bring out to Queensland. The hon. member for Cairns argued that an immigration policy and a railway policy should go together because _if we introduced people from ~ther countr:es we must have land to settle them on. It was said that the districts which would be served by this railway would carry 24,000,COO more sheep than they did at present if the line was built. But the han. member for Cairns advocated that we should have people to defend our country. As had been pointed out by other hon. members the construction of this proposed line would involve .an expenditure of at least £4,000,000, and they would have also to borrow for the rail-

ways which it was intended to build along the coast. How were the•y to provide for these two schemes?

Mr. CoRSER: Can't we borrow the money? Mr. MURPHY: What did a member like

the hon.. member for Maryborough care about borrowing money? That hon. member did not care if we borrowed million~ and millions and millions. It was the old '' borrow, boom, and burst" policy over again -the policy which members who were returned to wpport the present Premier in 1907, and members who were returned to support Sir Arthur Morgan in 1904, condemned. The hon. member for Drayton and Toowoomba got votes because he condemn"d that policy.

Mr. TOLMIE: No; I did not. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Ord~r! The

hon. member is trymg to get food for his speech by singling out different members and replying to their interjections. I hope he will confine his remarks to the question before the Committee.

Mr. MURPHY: He was endeavouring to show what this railway proposal meant.

Mr. CaTTELL: Are you in favour of 1t? .. Mr. MURPHY: No; he was against the proposal, and if the hon. member for Toowong had as much brains rus he had cheek, he would have known .that half an hour a.go.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order ! That exproosion is not parliamentary. The hon. member must not address another hon. m<mber in such terms.

Mr. MURPHY: He must apologise for using the expression. To come back to the question before the Committee, he should like to know if the Minister for Railways had yet got the information as to the term~ on which the Government were going -to take over the Mount Elliott :Railway. Were the Government going to give them ru sufficient sum to enable them to declare a big dividend?

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I cannot reply unless the hon. member gives me an opportunity of doing so.

Mr. MURPHY: Is the hon. gentleman prepared to reply?

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Yes. Mr. MURPHY: Then he would give the

hon. gentleman the opportunity. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: He

had been waiting for a long time to reply to the very clear and explicit question put by the hon. member for Croydon. It was provided in the Bill that-

rrhe sole consideration for the said contract shall be the repayment by the Commissioner to the company and the acceptance by the company of the sum of £93.910, being the total amount of the sums deposited with the Commissioner by the company under the said agreement, and, in addi· tion, a sum by way of simple interest thereon calculated at the rate of £3 15s. per centum per annum during the respective periods from which the sums so deposited as aforesaid have been held by the Commissioner.

Original question put and passed. The House resumed. The AcTING CHAIR·

MAN reported that the Committee had come to a resolution, and the resolution was agreed to.

FIRST READING. The Bill was presented and read a first

time, and its second reading was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

Han. W. T. Paget.]

2310 JYorth Coa:3t [ASSEMBLY.] Eailway Bill.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

MESSAGE FROM THE COUNCIL.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER announced the receipt of a message from the Council returning this Bill with amendments, in which they requested the concurrence of the Assembly.

Ordered that the message be taken into consideration to-morrow.

NORTH COAST RAILWAY BILL. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE.

On this Order of the Day being read, the House, on the motion of the SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS, went into Committee to consider the desirableness of introducing the Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS moved-

That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced t3 authorise the construction of a railway along the coast of Queensland, and connecting with the existing North Coast Railway at Rockhampton and with the :Mackay Railwav and with the Bowen llailway and with the Great ':\'orthern Hailvray and w1th the Oairns Hailway, being 454 miles in length or thereabouts; to delineate the route of the said railway; to define certain railway districts for the said railway; and to authorise the purchase by the State of the Proserpine Tramway, the Ayr Tramway, and the Cairns-Mulgrave Tramway; and make provision for other matters incidental thereto.

Mr. MANN: One had not the same objection to this railway as one had to the proposa1 with which they had just dealt, because portions of it would open up good country. One portion would tap the Inkerman Estate, where there would be a good deal of settlement, and if it would not pay handsomely it would at least return interest on the money invested. But to go the whole hog, and say they would build 454 miles of railway, without knowing whethe·r the districts traversed by the line would be settled, was asking rather too much of hon. members. There was a lot of poor country between Rockhampton and Mackay, on which there would not be many people settled, even if the line was built.

The flECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: There is a lot of poor country between Brisbane and Bunda berg.

Mr. MANN: Yes; he admitted that, but it was necessary to make a railway to Bundaberg, because they had not a very good pert at that place. He thought it would be Pmch better for Mackay to spend £300,000 in improving the port there, than to spend a large sum of money in building- aJ railway f10m Rockhampton to Mackay. What was w·mted in the North was better shipping fa.,ilities, and better means for getting their produce to the ports. He believed that Lord Kitchener had stated that our present railway policy would play into the hands of invaders rather than prove a means of defence. As he had

said, he had not the same opposi[7 p.m.] tion to the coast line that he had

against the line in the extreme West, because on the coast they had a better rainfall, which ensm·ed the prospect of the line paying well. But it was merely a window-dressing programme, and a :zood deal of it would not be gone on with. He would rather see the Premier bring down three or four businesslike railways, such as the railway connecting Bobawaba with the Ayr Tram-

[ Han. W. T. Paget.

way, the extension of the railway in the Mackay district, the opfming of a line or two· on the coast in the Herbert electorate, and the opening of one or two branches of railway in the Atherton Scrub. Those three or four propositions would have business behind them; they would open up good country and settle the people on the soil and otherwis& do good work.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Vhat about the line to Babinda?

l\1r. MANN: They had not got a mill at Babinda. It was not so much the want of a railway that was felt at Babinda as the want of a mill. Unless they built sugar-mills at these places, it was no use building the railways and opening up the land there. H& always said that a railway policy and immigration policy should go together, and he now added a third factor, the land policy. The three should go together, if they wanted to get out population and aevelop the country as it should be developed.

Mr. ALLEN: The Premier only thinks of one place, and that is Rockhampton.

;\Ir. :\1ANN: No; the Premier had to think of Brisbane, because he had the Brisbane Press behind him. Of course, he also did what. he could for Rockhampton. The North was in a sense the gatewa:y: thr<?ugh which they would get the yellow mvasron, and if they wanted to hold this country, they must occupy it with white people, and settle all their coast lands. The Premier when he used to come to Cairns, would throw out his chest and tell them what fine sturdy settlers they were all the way to Port Douglas. Here was an opportunity for the Premier to pursue a policy of opening up that Northe1·n country. In the Atherton Scrub they had a beautiful belt of country that only required a network of railways in order to allow the ,settlers to get their produce to market. Three or four short lines like that would be better than this lineof 454 miles. A lot of the country between Rockhampton and Mackay and that between Mackay and Bowen was not first-class land. although it was very good land in parts.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It is all' good !and between Mackay and Proserpine.

Mr. MANN: It was fairly decent grazing· land. The three or four lines he had mentioned would do more good towards settling the people of Queensland and putting Queensland in a more .stable position when the drought came.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: That is what we propose to do.

Mr. MANN: The more people they settled' in the coastal districts, where the rain was· assured, the better it would be for the State. \Vhen a newchum came out here with, say £1,000, if he went out on to some of the country opened up by the Great \Vestern Railway and took up a f!razing farm of 40.000· acres, he might spend all. his capital in making improvements and buym,g sheep and stock and a drou.!.!ht would come along and wipe him out. His capital would be all ,gone and' he would not make another start, as he would not want to have another failure. The old hand who was used to the country, would not ;,ind having one failure, but he would' go on again, but with the newchum it was. no place for him to go at all.

~Ir. \VIENHOLT: It is no place for a ;:ew-chum.

Mr. MANN: He was glad the hon. gentleman made th_at remark. On the coast dis-

!\orth Coast [24 NovEMBER,] Railway Bill. 23H

tricts he could take up agricultural land and go in for dairying and, !lis he would have a surety of regular seasons, he would be ail right. If he did have a failure there at the start he would know that there was another season coming on and he would be all right. It would be much more profitable for the newchum to take up a selection on the coast than to go out \Ve•et to do so.

The AcTING CHAIRJIIAN indicated that the hon. member's time had expired.

Mr. RYLAND (Gympie): He would like to know from the Minister how it was that the report of the Commissioner with regard to the railway did not get into the hands of membel's until practically when the question was put to the House?

1\Tr. :\1un.PHY: You never get them in time, and they rush the railways through at the end of every session.

Mr. RYLAND: It was not fair to hon. members that th<>y did not get their reports earlier.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I tabled them yesterday afternoon. It has nothing to do with me that thev were not distributed. I had t!he Bills here,· and as soon as the Bill was introduced I had them distributed.

Mr. RYLAND: When a Bill was ordered to be printed, copies were generally left in members' boxes straight away, and it was not clone this time.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Well, ask the officers of the House.

Mr. RYLAND: It was not fair, and it did not give them an opportunity to look through the 1·eport.~ before they came on. The information about the railway was very meagre indeed for them to be asked to pass a resolution of that kind. The proposal was an expensive one, even without considering the expense of taking over the 189~ miles of railway already in operation. The Commissioner said that the egtimated cost of the line was £2,320.000, exclusive of land resumptions. He was not objecting to the proposal, because he thought that most of the railways contained in the proposals were very necessary railways, and they would open up a large amount of countrv and close settlement would come alone-.· He hoped that the Minister would give· them a fair opportunity of discussing the proposal, because they were building th'l railways not for a term of years but practically for all time, and they should be careful not to make any mistake by rushing the lines throw;h. Bills were rushed through the House because members knew nothing about them. It would be far better to have railways in agricultural districts. He was not pointing out that it was an unnecessary Bill, but thev should have more information before it was 'rushed through. He noticed that it was proposetl to construct 454 more miles in addition to those already in operation. That was a good deal for a start. In estimating the revenue and expenditure the Commissioner f'st3mated that there would be a loss tD start with of £16,738. That was practically £17,000, which worked out at one-third of a penny an acre to the benefited area, or nine-tenths of a penny per £1 on the present valuation. He commended the Commissioner for putting this into his report.

The SECRE~'ARY FOR RAILWAYS: It shows that he is honest in his report.

Mr. RYLAND: Yes, and he was glad to see that the Commissioner l!ave them' those details before they decided to give leave to introduce the Bill. The estimate only re-

£erred to the present valuation, and they had no estimate of what it was likely to be m time to come.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It will not. be so much as nine-tenths of a penny.

Mr. RYLAND: In round numbers it was. 1d. in the £1. In a big railway proposal like this they would find that they were assessed on the full valuation, while, as a matter of fact, thev should only be assessed on the enhanced' value. It was not fair to those people who did not get any benefit to make them pav. In connection with the proposal, thev ohot1ld ttmend the Railway Bill and make the. charge only apply to the enhanced .value caused by the construction of the rarlway. There were other things in the report that might be referred to, but he would read the last paragraph, which said-

In view of the small loss between the estimated. revenue and expenditure (and which I am certain. will be confined to the ea.rlier stages), the great advantages to present settlers, the future benefit in the wav of increased settlement, and the consequent development of the various ports along the coast, I strongly recommend the con_struc~io~ of tl1is railway, which I am confident will w1th1n a. very short pe'riod prove a valuable asset to the State. In addition to these advantages to the· State, it is, to my . mind, . n.bso~utely necessary to, provide for the rapid mobilisatiOn of the Australian Defence Force at any one of the ports on our eastern coast. That "·as a fair paragraph. Personally he was not against the linking up o! the coast lines; but he questioned whether 1t would be wise to adopt the whole scheme at once.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN indicated that the: hon. member's time had expired.

Mr. MANN did not rise to obstruct the passage of the motion. Under this ~cheme it was proposed to take over the Carrns-Mulgrave Tramway, on whi~h there :was at the· opresent time a very efficrent servwe. Many of the cane-growers had entered int~ agreements with the mill in regard to therr cane,. which was carried at a certain rate, and before he agreed to the tramway being taken over by the Government he wished to know whether the present freights and fares would be continued until existing agreements expired .. The great cry in the North was not so much for a connection with Brisbane by linking up the coast lines as a go~d steamer service between Gladstone and Carrns. The ·train journey b.:;tween Brisbane and Cairns. would be expens1ve and uncomfortable; and he would much rather go between Gladstone· and Cairns in the "Wyandra" or the "Wyreema" than by train. He hoped the Minister would supply the information he require? in connection with the taking over of the Caun!;Mulgrave Tramway.

Mr. HAMILTON thought members had' just cause of complaint in not having J:adi information supplied to them. He had JUSt received the Commissioner's report; but he· saw in the Courier this morning a much more· exhaustive report. There was nothing in the· Commissioner's report as to how the losses on· ihe different parts of the line were to be· charged.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It is ::m page 3 of the Commissioner's report.

Mr. HAMILTON: Not so fully as in the· dailv Press. With respect to that part of theproposed 'iystem from Rockhampton to Mackay, there had not been even a feature survey made, as far as he knew, and therewas no information as to the class of country.

Mr. Hamilto':t.J

.Kort.~ Coast [ASSEMBLY.] Railway Bd .

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I will give you all the information.

Mr. HAMILTON: The hon. member for Normanby was the only member who could give information as to the country along the route between those two places; and he had been told by that hen. member that most of it was cattle country.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Dairying country.

Mr. HAMILTON: As to the country north from Mackay, they could not go wrong in building railways there. All the hinterland from the coast was good rich country, and he had no objection to building railways there. · He believed in building railways where they were wanted, whether on the coast or in the interior-(hear, hear !)-and he considered that 100 miles on the North Coast would tend to settle more people than 1,000 miles of transcontinental railway. That, however, was no reason why the lines in the West should not be extended and the present termini linked np. When a railway policy was brought down by the Government involving enormous sums of money, it was .not a fair thing that they should be asked to vote almost on the blind. Even the reports on the Western line could not be called reliable; and he thought members on both sides should protest against the paucity of information supplied.

Mr. ALLEN was rather diffident about agreeing to thPse railway schemes with such a paucity of information; and he believed that when the country got a chance of dealing with those who were responsible those persons would receive a severe check. In both these schemes there was 'too much Rockhampton. Though there was some rich country between Mackay and Cairns, they were told that if they did not accept the whole scheme they would get nothing. They got certain informa·tion from the Courier, but they got no information from the Minister.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL WAYS : You ·will get it when I table the Bill.

Mr. ALLEN: The least -the Minister could do would be to let members have information a little before the Courier. He would like to know where the money for· these railways was to come from? The Minister for Lands could not go borrowing from the London Jew aHer the speeches he made in 1904; neither could the Premier. How were those hon. members going to run the country and the

people on to this enormous bor[7.30 p.m.] rowing policy? . He hoped the

Committee would get rid of the " dog in the manger" element that had been introduced into the discussion. He would support anything that was good, and anything he did not believe in he would fight tooth and nail, whether the Courier liked it, or whether the Premier or Rockhampton liked it or not. If they had no chance of getting the good things without taking the bad things, they had better wait till they could get the good things "on their own." Although he wanted to see extensions in the West, he did not agree with many of the details of the Government scheme. He did not think ·the Government had given sufficient consideration to the nroposal. It was just the old game of bluff, and he thought the people of Queensland were just about tired of that game of bluff. Wh&t was going to happen when the Government borrowed that £10,000,000 or £12,000,000? The Committee

[Mr. Hamilton.

did not know how much would be required. What was going to happen to those agricultural districts with no railways? They could not go on borrowing for ever, Seeing that the Premier had told the country in 1907 that he was able to build light lines without going on to the money market-tho Premier said, "Do not vote for the Opposition. If you do it is "borrow, ·boom, and burst." And what was the Premier doing to-day? It was up to the Premier, and also the Secretary for Railways, to give the Commi-ttee information as to how they proposed to finance this scheme ;vithout going in for a huge borrowing policy? He was there to see that the interests of the country were not made subservient to the interests of Rockhampton. (Government laughter.) Looking at that scheme, they could see Rockhampton written over the whole thing. Take out Rockhampton, and there was nothing in the scheme. He objected to tha1t kind of business, and he for one was not going to be bluffed by the Government. If the P~emier was not prepared to go on with those lines on which they were all agreed, unless the whole scheme wa3 accepted, he, as one of the Opposition, was not prepared -to accept those conditions.

The ACTING CHAIRMA:s- indicated that the hon. member's time had expired.

HoN. R. PHILP: This was simply a formal matter, and the Ministerial statement would be made on the Bill, when they would get all the information. As far as he could see, there could be no strong objection to the proposal, as the line was to connect Southern Queensland with the Northern part of Queensland along the coast. A large part of the line was already built by local bodies, and surely the whole of Queensland must pay to finish the line. There was a lot of good land between Bowen and Cairns; he had seen a good deal of it himself, and it must be remembered on the line from Brisbane to Rockhampton a lot of very poor and indifferent land was -passed through. At one time he thought it was a mistake to build coastal lines, but he had lived long enough to see that was a mistaken id'ea on his part, as notwithstanding the lines on the coast there was ever so much more traffic on the steamers, and there was no doubt a lot of the coastal lands would never have been developed by the coastal s·teamers sailing 10 or 20 miles away. They must have railways right through the heart of it, and the more railways they had the more steamer traffic there would be. The Commissioner stated that he could start building the line at Rockhampton, Mackay, or Bobawa.ba, the present terminus of the Bowen line or from Townsville, so that there were fou; places he could start building that line. Every Northern member of the Hous3 should welcome the proposal, seeing that the whole of the Southern Central, and Northern parts would be bound' together by the railway.

Mr. HAMILTON: We could do that by a railway from Winton to Hughenden.

HoN. R. PHILP: It must be remembered that the bulk of the population was on the coast, and they could depend on a coastal line paying.

Mr. HAMILTON: Where does the bulk of the exports come from?

HoN. R. PHILP understood hon. membflrs opposite were opposed to building railways for sheep and cattle. The member for Burke got enraged every time they talked about it. That hon. member wanted a line to suit the men and women. He (Hon. R. Philp) wanted t<>

Meat, Et('., Bill. [21. NovEMBER.] 231;!

:smt the sheep and cattle, and men and women, andl the mines and the land. He hoped there would be no further trouble about opposing this simple motion, and, when they had the information, let them discuss the Bill and fight ~the proposal.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: Will you support the "amendment on the second reading?

RoN. R. PHILP: He would be sorry to support anything emanat.ng from the [un. nlember for Kennedy. There could be no doubt about the route of the proposed railway. He considered it was a fair proposal, and, as the .seaport towns derived more benefit from the railway than the people inland, he was prepared to support the taxing of the towns, as :they would get more than a fair share of the revenue from the railway.

1\lr. FERRICKS: Something had been said "about competition between the steamship service and the railway service. He would say to those who considered the steamship ~service the cheaper and the more comfortable that, when there was a railway on the coast, the fares were fairly reasonable; but when they had no railway on the coast the fares jumped up 50 per cent. or 60 per cent. He would support the proposal, as he believed it would go through a territory which would ~settle thousands of people if they could only get the land made available quick enough. A great number of people in Northern Queens

Jand were turning their eyes on the land, and, unless they could accommodate them quickly, they would have to seek other avenues of employment, and perhaps be lost to the agri--<Jultural industry. '

Question put and passed. The House resumed. 'I'he ACTING CHAlR

:MAN reported the Committee had come to a .resolution, and the resolution was agreed to.

FIRST READING.

The Bill was presented and read a first time, .and its second reading was made an Order -of the Day for Tuesday next.

MEAT AND DAIRY COURAGEMENT MENT BILL.

PRODUCE EN-ACTS AMEND-

COMMITTEE.

Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, put and passed. On clause 5-" Application of sul'plus

moneys"-Mr. NEVITT : This clause provided that

,surplus moneys from the meat fund might be applied in-

(a) Aiding the chilled meat industry by way of ,grant, loan, or guaranteeing insurance;

(JJ) Aid by way of grant to the diseases in stock ~fund established under the Diseases in Stock Act ·<>f 1896.

Some little time ago a company at Normanton were prepared to go in for salting, extracting, and boiling down stock, but they had not sufficient capital for the purpose. Thev had an excellent plant which they were prepared to pledge .as security for a small loan, and he thought they were just as much entitled to an advance from this fund as anyone else, seeing that they had contributed a fair percentage of the fund. With a view to enabling the Minister to give

assistance in such cases, lw mo,·ed that the following new subclause be inserted after subclause (a):-

Aiding any industry tho.t will help to get rid of surplus stock.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIGCLTURE (Han. W. T. Paget, M~ackay): When they were drafting the clause it was thought that it would cover the case the han. member had in his mind, hut on further consideration he was of opinion that it would only cover the cases mentioned in subclauses (a) and (b), and he would accept the amendment.

Mr. MANN: He had intended moving a somewhat similar amendment to that submitted by the hon. member for Carpentaria, but with a wider meaning. There was no doubt -that in the past the meatworks had been fairly treated bv the proso:1t and past Governments, but there was a complaint that Governments had not done so much for the dairying industry as they might have done The managers of a butter factory in his district had made many applications to the Government for assistance, and the Government had led them to believe that they would send up an officer to report on the matter, but eventually stated that there was no provision in the Act for making advance., to such companies. He thought that in the interest of the dairying industry, as well as in the interest of the grazing industry, they might widen the scope of this Bill in such a way as to provide for giving assistance to dairying companies.

The SECRETARY FOR _\GRICULTuRE: This Bill does not deal wi:th the dairy fund. It deals with the meat fund only, as the hon. member will see by referring to clause 2.

Mr. MANN: Then the title of the Bill was misleading. It was styled a "Meat and Dairy Produce Encouragement Bill." Its :title should show clearly that it was only a Meat Encouragement Bill. The Minister would have been wise if he had made provision in this Bill for assisting the dairying industry. If settlers took the risk of ticks and introduced dairy cattle into a new district, the Government might very well assist them by sending a few bulls into that district.

Amendment (Mr. Nevitt's) agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

The House resumed. The AcrrNG CHAIR· MAN reported the Bill with an amendment.

The third reading of the Bill was made an Order of 'the Day for to-morrow.

MARGARINE BILL. ConnnTTEE.

Clauses 1 to 8, inclusive, put and passed. On clause 9-" Margarine to contain .1 P!lr·

centage of starch"-The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE:

In speaking last night he said that sinci' the Bill was drafted it became desirable to make

some amendments, one being to [8 p.m.] include "sesame oil." He moved

the omission of clause 9 with the view of inserting a new clause in· its stead.

Mr. HARDACRE: The new clause would remove some of the objections which had been raised. It proposed to add to the substances which might be introduced into margarine, and these were 1:he dry starch of the Canna eduli.~ and sesame oil. The objection

Mr. Hardacre.]

2314 Margarine Bill. LASEKHBLY.J Margarir.e Bill.

had been raised that it was quite possible that in certain times of the year and in certain years it would be absolutely impossible for any manufacturer of margarine to get Queensland canna starch or potato starch. It was not produced in Australia in a large quantity, a.nd it would be prohibitive to import it from Great Britain. It was no use imposing conditions that could not be complied with. He understood that in Victoria they used sesame oil in margarine. Sesame oil might be very distasteful. They might include cornflour, which was easily procurable in Australia, as an optional substance instead of canna starch. Or, if the Minister did not wish to accept that amendment, would he accept an amendment making it " such other ,starch as may be approved of by the Minister." so as to make it possible without difficulty to procure any other kind of starch than this •starch, which 'was objectio'nable.

The AC'l'ING CHAIRMAN: We must negative clause 9 first before we discuss the new clause.

Clause 9 put and negatived. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE

moved the insertion of the following clause as clause 9 :-

(1.) A manufacturer shall intimately mix with every 1,000 parts of margarine at least 1 part of the dry starch of Canna edulis (Queensland arrowroot), and with every 100 parts of margarine at least 5 parts of sesame oil (the oil of Sesamum indicu1n or Sesamum orientale).

(2.) The sesame oil added to margarine in accordance with the Act must give the following chemical reaction :-A mixture of 1 part by volume of sesame oil and 99-! parts of cotton-seed oil or of earth-nut oil with 100 parts of fuming hydrochloric acid of a specific gravity of 1.19 with a few drops of a 2 per centum al<:>oholic solution of furfural, well shaken, must, after allowing to separate, show a distinct red colouration in the acid layer. The furforol used must be colourless.

(3) All margarine imported or introduced into Queensland shall contain the prescribed percentage of starch and of sesame oil. No starch, except canna starch as aforesaid, and no oil, except sesa.me oil, giving the aforesaid reaction, shall be used. He would read a letter which he had received from Mr. Briinnich, as follows:-

Re MARGARINE AcT. There can be no doubt that the increased manu

facture and import of margarln~ wlll seriously affect the butter industry, if not controlled by legislation.

'fhe New Zealand Act (1908) is fairly complete, but a check on the carrying out of the Act is very difficult, as nothing is added to the margarine, so that it can be easily distinguished from butter, and also detected if added to butter. The Europe"n Acts all provide the addition of 5 per cent. oil of sesame, and the- Belgian Act besides the addition of at least 1 per 1,000 of potato starch. The starch in even this small amouut is easily detected either in the margarine itself or when added to butter. On~ drawback is that continua] working of such adulterated butter will remove the starch more or less, whereas the sesame oil cannot be removed, and can always be shown by analytical tests. Still, on account of its simplicity, the addition of starch could easily be enforced, and would add greatly to the thorough carrying out of a margarine Act. A large-grained starch as potato starch or starch front Canna edulis should be insisted upon.

The la.st few words of that letter was his :reply to the hon. member for Leichhardt. The reason for including the Canna edulis was that it was a large·grained starch and could be !)asilv detected. At the Agricultural Department at times it was necessary to make analyses of a shipment of butter very quickly in. order to get the papers ready for the shipment, and for the detection of margarine. If it were saleable in Queensland, or if it

[Mr. Hardacre.

were being manufactured in Queensland. it. was necessary it should be analysed quickly,_ and that was the reason for adding the Canna; edulis, because it had such a large grain. He would also read another letter he had received from the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth, Mr. A. Fisher, dated 15th. September, 1910, as follows:-

I have the honour to transmit herewith a copy of a communication which has been addressed to· the Premier of each of the other States with regard to the adulteration of Australian butter.

A Bill on the lines indicated is, I am advised, at present under consideration by your Government, but it is thought that the me•asure would be greatly strengthened by provision for the following· l'equirements:-

(l) Compulsory addition of sesame oil. ~2) Manufacture under security and book con~

trol. (3) Specific prohibition of margarine, sesame oil,

and starches named in any premises used. for making butt"r.

I shall be glad if your Government can see its way to adopt the Bill referred to above, with the addition of provisions relating to the three matters mentioned in paragraph 2 of this communi<'ation.

Although they had discussed the matter, they had not included sesame oil, but in view of that communication from Melbourne, in order to brin:g their Bill into line with other Bills that might be passed, or with the Commonwealth Bill that might be passed, he thought it advisable to accept the suggestions of the· Prime Minister.

Mr. HAMILTON: What is the reason for putting the ,starch in?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It was practically the only method by which the chemist could readily detect marg_arine· from butter, and Canna edulis had a large· grain and could be detected. When margarine was worked with butter, sometimes. the starch particles were worked out, but they could not possibly work out the sesame oil.

Mr. RYLAND asked the meaning of the words "two per centum alcoholic solution." (Laughter.) Did the Secretary for Public· Instruction approve of that? Was it really necessary to have that included. (Laughter.}· If the Minister could not give him a .satisfactory answer as a reason for the inclusion of th<>se words, he would have to get them omitted.

Mr. MURPHY: That was easily answer,ed. The Secretary for Agriculture being a teetotaller, and kn')wing a certain percentage of alcohol had to be put into all teetotal drinks, wanted to get ready for the teetotallers who· used margarine. (Laughter.)

Mr. HARDACRE moved the insertion, after Sesamum orientale, of the words "or· such other substance as the Minister may· hereafter approve." There might be some difficulty at times in gettinQ' the substances already mentioned in the clause, and the amendment would give the Minister larger· powers.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE thought it would be advisable to accept the· amendment.

Amendment agreed to; and new clause, as. amended, put and passed.

On clause 10--" Illegal acts"-

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE moved the insertion, in line 37. aiter "oil·s,"' of the words "with the exception of sesameoil."

]!fargarine Bill. [24 NOVEMBER.] Margarine BitJ. 2315

Mr. HARDACRE: He had an amendment to propose in an earlier part of the clause, and he would be glad if the Minister would withdraw his amendment in the meantime.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. HARDACRE: Under paragraph (b) it was unlawful to mix margarine with butter, butter fat, or milk. He understood that it was necessary in the manufacture of mar· garine to use a certain percentage of milk, which was afterv.ards squeezed out in "the churning process. In Great Britain it was allowable to have not more than 5 per cent. of milk; and, seeing that the manufacture of such a useful product as margarine should not be prevented, he wished to know whether the Min1ster would ac<Jept the amendment he had suggested.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: He could not accept the bon. member's suggestion. It was not imperative that milk should be used in the manufacture of margarine. Not only that, but if they allowed a percentage of milk, they would be allowing a percentage of butter-fat, for the reason that there was butter-fat in the milk.

Mr. THORN (Aubigny) was sorry the Minister was going to accept the amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICL:LTURE: No, l said I could not accept it.

Mr. THORN: He was very glad to hear it. 'rhe farmers' representatives had been fighting for years to put the butter industry on a proper footing; and it had gone ahead by leaps and bounds, with the assistance of the Government. This Bill was a step in the right direction. The dairymen were not getting too much for their butter-fat: but the Government had done all they could to assist the industry. He was pleased that the Minister was not going to accept the amendment suggested by the hon. member for Leichhardt.

Mr. HARDACRE: His only object was to do what was fair. Though there was a number of dairymen in his district, he did not want to prevent the manufacture of margarine. If it was found afterwards to be necessary to use a certain percentage of milk, would the provision be relaxed?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Oh, yes. He moved the insertion, after "oits," in line 37, of the words "with the exception of sesame oil."

Mr. THORN: The han. member for Leichhardt had always stood up for pure food, but

now he seemed to be in favour of [8.30 p.m.] margarine. They could put good

butter on the market at a reasonable price, far better than any margarine on the market. He thought the Bill would be a good thing for the butter industry.

Amendment put and passed. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE

moved the insertion of the following subclause:-

To keep margarine, sesame oil, or canna starch on any premises used in the making or rnanufac~ ture of butter.

That was to prohibit any of those articles being kept in butter factories.

:Mr. MURPHY asked what action the Agricultural Department intended to take if those clauses were infringed in any way? When the department was dealing with the ordinary working man. it proposed to give a policeman power to go into his place and search without a warrant, arrest him, and lodge him in gaol.

Did the department propose to deal out the same kind of justice to men who manufactured margarine?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICC'LTL:RE: Look at clause 11.

Mr. MURPHY: He was satisfied that the Agricultural Department would not mete out the same kind of what they called "justice" to the fraudulent merchant as they would to the unfortunate opossum-trapper.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: vVon't they?

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

On clause 11--'' Inspection"-The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE

moved that " ·Sesame oil " be inserted after the word '· starch," on line 4, page 5. This was simply a consequential amendment.

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

Clause 12----" Appeal to police magistrate"put and passed.

On clause 13-" Bad margarine not to be sold, etc."-

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE moved the insertion of "sesame oil," after the word " starch," on line 32.

Amendment agreed to.

:Mr. MANN thought it was a mistake to say no person should sell or supply margarine. If it was not fit for human consumption, it might be allowed to be sold as cart-grease. If a man had a quantitv of margarine on his hands, he should be allowed to make some use of it, if possible, so long as it was not sold for human consumption.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The inspectors always use some common sense.

Mr. MANN: They should not object to a man selling margarine for cart-grease.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: There is no reason why it ,should not be so sold.

Clauoc, as amended, put and passed. Clauses 14 to 22., inclusive, put and passed. On clause 23-" Certain labour restricted."

Mr. MANN asked for some information in regard to the clause. He was not a great belie.-er in the certificate business, as there had alwavs been trouble about the words to be written bv aliens. It was quite possible tha~> a man would be only given two words to write; and, with a little connivance, he might get a certificate. He therefore moved that " fifty" be inserted before the word " words," on line 12.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Is there anv occasion for it?

JYlr. LENNO~ hoped the Minister would accept the amendment, as a similar provision was ins<:>rted in the Local Authorities Act, and it would bring the Bill into conformity with that Act. Fiftv words was a very moderate number. ·

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE did not see very much reason for the amendment, because the clause was taken from the Dairv Produce Act of 1905, which contained' those exact words. However, he did not think it would act in one way or the other, and therefore had no objection to the amendment.

Amendment agreed to; and clauee, as. amended, put and passed.

Hon. W. T. Paget.]

2316 Native Animals, Et,·., lASSEMBLY.l Amendment Bill.

The House resumed. The ACTING CHAIR· MAN reported the Bill with amendments, and the third reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

NATIVE ANIMALS PROTECTION ACT Al\1END:\1ENT BILL.

COMMITTEE. .(liir. J(. Jf. Grant, Rockhampton, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 to 3, inclusive, put and passed. On clause 4--" Amendment of section 4"

Mr. O'SU:J;,LIVAN: This clause provided that a person should be liable to prosecution if he had in his possession within the close .season, " the untann_ed skin of any native bear or opossum." He thought the term "untanned" should be altered to "uncured." or that some definition should be given of the word " untanned."

Mr. GUNN: Marsup_ial skins were only .dried in the shade, and then :smeared with a preparation of arsenic to keep the weevils away. They were sent to the market in that -condition.

Mr. LENNON: They are sold "untanned"? Mr. GUNN: Yes. Mr. LENNON: Then the expression is quite

wrong. · Mr. GUNN: He noticed that a close season

was to be declared for native bears and -opossums. It was rather late to declare a close season for native bears, as there were now practically no native bears to protect.

Mr. HARDACRE: Any amount of them, in my district.

Mr. GUNN: He was very glad to hear that there were native bears in some places, because in olden times where he came from the native bea.r was the gentleman who paid the rent. Now it was the opossum who paid the rent, and he should be very sorry to see the poor opossum go altogether. In districts where opossums were scarce they should have a rest for two or three years.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Clause 5 .deals with tha.t.

Mr. GUNN understood that under the principal Act the Minister could declare any close ,season he liked, and that, as a rule, the close season was for six months, and the open season six months. There was no particular breeding season for opossums ; they bred at any time, so that it was desirable to proclaim a close season of two or three years in places where opossums were scarce. It might not be generally known that the female opossum always had the best skin, and that her skin was a very valuable product. For that reason it wa.s the female opossum with her young which was killed. The Curator of the New South Wales Zoological Gardens ha.d advocated very .strongly the breeding of opossums and he (Mr. Gunn) did not know that the' breeding -of opossums would not be more profitable than some investments. At any rate, he thought it would be a reasonable thing to <mcourage people to breed opossum,s, and that they should be very careful not to allow the animals to be exterminated.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: He still thought that the expression " untanned" skins required some explanation. Men might have legitimately trapped opossums during the sea;;on, and have in their pos·se<s'on a lot -of skins which were cured, but not tanned.

[Mr. O'Sullivan.

As it stood, that would be a penal offence. He moved that the word " untanned" be omitted with the view of inserting the word ''uncured."

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE ·did not think it would make the slil:'htest difference whether they used the word " untanned" or "uncured," but if hon. members thought the latter expression was more ,suitable he would accept the amendment . All that he desired was to insure that persons should not do within the close season that which they should not do.

Mr. MORGAN: The reason the word "untanned" wws used was to distinguish between tanned and cured skins. A man might have tanned skin.s in his house, using them as mats or rugs, and it would not be right to render him liable to prosecution for having those skins in his possession. But if a man had in his possession the ordinary dried or cured skins in a close .season, he should be prosecuted. 'rhe opossum hunter should send his skins to market by the time the close season ·started if possible, but if he could not do so, he believed the .Act allowed him a fortnight or a month after the close sea.son started in which to send them to market, and that was quite right. But no trapper should have " untanned" skins in his possession after that. 'Vith regard to proclaiming a close season, the genuine opossum trapper wanted a close season. In the Taroom district hundreds of people had been making a good living at trapping opossums for many years past, and it was desirable that an industry which proved so remunerative should be protected.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN thought the difficulty would be better met if they used the term "freshly flayed" skins instead of " untanned" or "uncured" skins.

Mr. MoRGAN: Then you would have to define the term " flayed."

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Anyone could tell whether a skin was frE~Shly flayed-whether it had been flayed two or three days previously. Men in his electorate went out opossum hunting for months at a time, and

did not come in to the coast [9 p.m.] until the close season commenced,

and then they brought in drayloads of skins. All he desired was to see that the legitimate trapper was protected in his legitimate operations, and if the Minister assured him that a man taking his skins to market when the close season started would not be victimised, he would withdraw his amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: For the information -of the h-on. memb.cr for Kennedy, the clause under discussion repealed secti-on 4 of the principal Act, which read-

Any person who within the period hereinbf~fore mentioned sells, offers for sale, or has in his control or possession any native bear or opossum recently killed or taken, or the skin of any such native bear or opossum, shall be liable to a penalty not ex:~ ceeding five pounds.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: That is better. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE:

The reason for repealing the se0tion was that it was found that they could not get any conviction, and could not tell whether the skin was from an animal recently killed. {Hear. hear!) That was the reason that they thought it advisable to put in the words "untanned skin of any native bear or opossum." The hon. member for Murilla was in

Native Animals, Etc., [24 NoVEMBEB.] Amendment Bill. 2317

close touch with the people who did this work, and he thought the clause should be left as it was. With reference to the time a trapper would have to bring his skins into market, each case would be decided abso· lutely on its merits. In the Kennedy a man might be allowed a fortnight, and in Car· pAntaria he would be aJlowed a month or six weeks, while in Muril!a, where a trapper was in close touch with the railway line, of course, he would not get any such time. Each case was decided on its merits.

Amendment (Mr. 0' Sullivan's) put and negatived.

Mr. HARDACRE: He did not know if he could get in an amendment, but he drew the attention of the Minister to the fact that the trappers in his district had represented to him that the close season there was the wrong close season altogether, and it had the effect of causing the destruction of a large number of young opossums. They suggested that i£ the close season were started two months earlier, and ended two months earlier, it would prevent the dc,truction of the young opossums, and at the same time it would be more in the winter months, when the fur was far more superior than it was in the summer month,. The trappers in his electorate had also suggested that instead of having the close season for bears and opossums at the same time, they might take the bes·t six months for the c'oso season for the opossums and the other six months for the close season for the native bears. In that way they would have work to do all the year round, and they would get the opossums' skins at the time when the fur was better for the market.

Mr. AR::VISTRO;'\G (Lockye1·) : The question that they had to consider was the protection of these animals, and any argument about what was close season in the Central district was absolutelv useless in the South. They had the argument of the hon. member for Leichhardt that the bears should be destroyed during one part of the year and opossums during another part of the year, for the peculiar r~:tson that the opossumer and fur-gettc>r should have work all the year round. Such a proposition should not be allowed for one instant. The native bear should be protected for all time, at .any rate for another five or six years. The bear was one of the most harmless of animals, and he was becoming rapidly extinct. He knew something about this matter, and he knew that it Wff3 absolutely wrong to have the close sr-~·,on at the time that was fixed by the Act. He wa•g told that the reason that period was fixed was because that was the period when the fur was good. What had that got to do with the protection of the animals. The whole thing wa.s very silly, and it. was shockingly adminis·tercd. A, a matter of fact, you could not tlpply one set of conditions for these things all over the State any more than you could for bird life. He s1;1ggested that, instead of merely taking the vrews of members in the House, who got information second hand, and just re;watcd it, .the best way would be for the Minister or the department to get down one or two or more practical trappers and got their opinions about the matter, even if it cost a little money to pay their expenses and get that evidence from them. They would then know how to act. ·when one of their late Governors was in Queensland he wanted to see a native bear, and although he was told

he would see one everywhere he went, henever was able to see one. He (Mr. Armstrong) had a few acres a few miles out of Brisbane, and one day when the Governor was there he mentioned that he would liketo see a native bear, and he immediately showed him five in the trees near theveranda. He had been protecting birds and marsupials, ~"nd native bears and opossums, for twenty years. (Hear, hear !) Because he did that, he supposed that hon. members opposite would say that anyone could come into his place and trap those animals because it was an industry. His neighbours got a great deal of benefit from these animals, and when they strayed into his neighbours' property they might be trapped. Of course, that was all right, but he objected to anyone coming into his place to trap them.

Mr. RYLA)JD: The original Act, dealing with tho close season, had the following:-

The period of the year during which this Act shall be in operation as regards the native bear and opossum shall be from and after the 1st day of November to the 30th April in the following year, or such other period as the Governor in Council may by proclamation in the Gazette from time to time direct.

So it was left to the Adm~pistration to say when it was close season. The han. member· for Leichhardt had given expert information on the matter, and they said that it was. not the proper close season that was adopted at the present time.

Mr. G. P. BARNES (lVaru'ick) asked the Minister to promise to do something for the protection of the opossum and native bear· for two or three years in some districts at. least. He remembered the time when they could sec the bears on the tree,, but now they might travel for weeks before seeing any. They wanted something more than a close so;~son to protect them.

Mr. HAMILTON : When is, the proper close season?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It is very hard to say.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: The opossums were getting wiped out, and their skins becoming more valuable. He hoped that in the Eear future tho Minister would bring in a Bill to protect those animals.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The hon. member for ·warwick would see that clause 5 read as follows :-

[6A.] (1.) The Governor in Council may from time to time, by proclamation, declare any Crown lands and, with the consent of the mYner or occupier thereof, any other ln.nds as reserves for the protec· tion and preservation of such native animals referred to in this Act as are specified in such proclamation, and from time to time amend or annul th/:3 same.

They intended to go a step farther to protect these animals.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The Minister had better wait till we get to clauS£ 5 to discu&s it.

Mr. MORG .. \N suggested the neees,;ity of proclaiming a close season for three years for opossums and bear~ for the country between the \Vestern line and the Central line.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order. It would be proper to have this discussion on thenext clauS£.

Mr. Grant.)

2318 Native Animals, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Clause 4 put and passed. On clause 5---" Reserves"-Mr. O'SULLIVAN moved the omiSSion of

the words " other than a wholesale hides and £kins merchant," so that the clause would then lead-

Subject to this Act, no person is entitled to kill .or capture, etc., unless he holds u. permit. Why should a wholesale skin and hide merchant be exempt? If it was not proper for an ordinary individual, it was not proper for a whole,ale hide and. skin merchant to kill these opossums indiscrimimitely.

Mr. MURPHY: If you wipe that out you <Will prevent him from selling skins.

The TREASURER: Yes; that is so. Mr. O'SULLIVAN: But it said "kill."

Why should he be allowed to kill? The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The

wholesale skin merchant is not likely to go -out and kill opossums.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: But why should a wholesale hides and skins merchant be allowed

· to do what no other person was allowed to do? The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE:

The clause was probably badly worded. The words to which the hon. member objected should be in aiflother part of the clause, and if the bon. member would withdraw his amendment he would make the necessary .alteration.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The SECRE-TARY FOR AGRICULTURE

moved the omission, in lines 39 and 40, of the words ''other than a wholesale hides and skins merchant."

Amendment agreed to. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE

moved the insertion, after " capture or," in line 41, of the words " unless he is a wholesale hide and skin merchant."


Mr. MORGAN: Under paragraph 6B (1) no person was allowed to kill or capture a ·•possum or a native bear, or sell an untanned bear or 'possum skin, unless he took out a 'license. It was quite right that trappers should register their names and places of residence with a clerk of petty sessions, but this dause would prevent a farmer or any of his sons from killing 'possums on their own land. H might be said that they could do so under ·section 9 of the- principal Act, but that only .applied to gardens and orchards, and did not apply to properties on which there might be no garden or orchard. Not only would a 'license, costing half a crown, have to be taken out, but a man might have to go 40 or 50 miles to get the license, and that might mean 'a loss of £1 or £2. He was of opinion that a man should be allowed to trap 'possums on 'his own land without a license, just as people were allowed to destroy marsupials on their

-own property. In his district, and in other districts, the 'possums had helped to keep the ·farmers going and pay the grocer's bill. The farmers were subject to too much hamssing, and he did not see why the man on the land should he harassed J?Ore than anyone else.

l'I'Ir. MURPHY: A miner very often has to go 100 miles to get a miner's right.

Mr. MORGAN: That was a different thing, because the miner wanted to mine on land that did not belong to him. He did not object so much to the fee; what he wanted to provide was that a farmer should be allowed to

[Mr. O'Sullivan.

kill opo~sums on his own land. He therefore moved the insertion o£ the following proviso, after line 44 :-

Provided that nothing herein shall be construed to prevent the owner or manager of ltny holding, or any sons of such owner or manager, from killing or capturing any native bear or opossum, or sell or offer for sale any native bear or opossum, or the untanned skin of any native bear or opossum, o btained upon such holding, without such permit.

Mr. LENNON: If the amendment were accepted, it would be quite open for the farmers to scour the whole country side, and do the business without a license.

Mr. MORGAN: Only on their own property.

lVIr. LENNON: There would be some difficulty in proving whether the opossum was on this side of the fence or on the other side. It was a frivolous amendment, and he hoped the Committee would not waste any time over it.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: There was a good deal in the contention of the bon. member for Murilla. Many poor men on the land had been able to supplement their limited income

by trapping on their own farms, [9.30 p.m.] but he did not think the amend-

ment would do what the hon. member wanted. It would do a great deal more than the hon. member want-ed. If the amendment were carried, the owner of a 20,000-acre block could go trapping without a license, and make it a profession. If the han. member would withdraw his amendment, and move the omission of the words " become a trapper " on line 45, and insert " follow the occupation of a trapper," that would allow farmers' sons to trap on their own place, and keep down opossums where they were really becoming a pest, and allow the boy to have a little pocket money without registering himself as a trapper. He would not be, in the true sense of the word, a trapper.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It is very difficult to define what a trapper is.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: A trapper generally had a very big plant, and probably a four-inhand, and if they went out in the bush and found a man with such a plant there could be no question as to what his occupation was; but if they found a boy with a stick on the side of a tree, and a few snares, and perhaps half a dozen skins at home, nobody would ever attempt to call him a.trapper. He hoped the Minister would accept the amendment suggested, so as to define what a real trapper was, and he hoped the member for Murilla would not press his amendment, as it would do so much more than the bon. member wanted to do.

Mr. WIENHOLT' thought at first there was a good deal in what the bon. member for Murilla stated, but, after hearing the bon. member for Maranoa, it struck him that after all what the bon. member said was completely covered in clause 9 of the principal Act. If a man had a small holding, it would be only splitting straws to ask whether an opossum was going to do any harm to the crops. Anybody with common sense would take it for granted that a boy acted in a boncZ fide manner, and the Committee were only splitting straws in trying to draw special notice to the fact, because clause 9 of the principal Act covered the whole thing. He could not support the amendment.

Mr. LAND was opposed to the amendment. If it were carried, they might just as well drop the Bill. The object of the Bill was to protect

Native Animals, Etc., [24 NOVEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 2319

'the native animals, and if the amendment were -carried the whole thing would be handed over .to the lads, and the trapper would have no protection at all. In a case like that mentioned by the hon. member for Murilla, why .could not one member of the family take out a license? For the protection of the native animals, and for the purpose of giving the Minister an opportunity to control the indus.try and prohibit the use of cyanide, they wanted everyone who was allowed to kill those .animals to be licensed, so that the Government would always know where they were. That would be a very easy way out of the difficulty. If there was a family on a farm, one of the family could take out a license, and bv that means he could kill all the vermin on the holding, and he would be.subject to the provisions o£ the Act. The hon. member did not object to the fee of 2s. 6d., and it would be just as easy for a man on a farm to get a license as .anyone else.

:\Ir. O'SULLIVAN thought the mover of the amendment wished to give power for the ·destruction of native animals all the year .round.

Mr. :MORGAN: No; not in the close season. :\Ir. O'SULLIVAN: If a native animal was

.a pest on a farmer's land in the close season, he could kill it then, too.

Mr. MuRPHY: So he could under the principal Act.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN maintained the amendment would be open to great abuses. For instance, people without a license would get a .quantity of skins, and then get the son of a farmer to dispose of those skins. He hoped the Ministpr would not accept the amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: I have no intention of accepting it.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: They wished to protect .all native animals, and the destruction that had been going on had depleted the country <Jf a lot of very useful native animals.

Mr. MURPHY wished to explain his posiJtion, because if the amendment went to a vote he would very much like to vote for it, but, as he had paired with the senior member for Townsville, he would appear on the voting list as voting against the Government. There was a very interesting article on native animals in the last "Lone Hand," by Jos. Mackay, which most hon. members had read, and he was very pleased to see that the Government were really making a determined effort to protect the native animals. There was not the :Slightest doubt that in the past they had been too prone to allow people to go out and rid the country of those native animals, and under this Bill the Government were honestly endea· vouring to protect those animals.

Mr. RYLAND thought that as the objeot of the measure was to secure control over trappers, and not to raise revenue, they should reduce the license fee from 2s. 6d. to ls., but he was opposed to the amendment.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: The professional trapper would, he was sure, have no objection to paying a much larger fee, as that would keep novices out of the business. Personally, he was in favour of registration and the payment of a small fee by those who followed trapping as an occupation, but he was with the hen. member for Murilla in the proposal to exempt farmers from payment of the fee in cases where they or their sons killed a few opossums round their own pro-

perties. If they compelled persons so situated to register and pay a license fee, it would only lead to lads making misrepresentations when they went to sell the skins of animals they had trapped or shot. '!'he amendment could do no harm, as it would not allow shooting or trapping dt1ring the close season.

Mr . .MORGAN: Some members seemed to think that he desired to give farmers the right to trap opossums during the close oeason. His amendment did not propose anything of the kind, nor did he intend anything of the kind. The amendment simply provided that a small farmer should n{,t be compelled to register and pay a license fee because his sons happened to kill half a dozen opossums. If some such amendment was not adopted, then lads who were nd trapJ:>ers and who killed a few opossums with the v1ew of selling their skins, would have to say that the opossums were eating cabbages, cr \~ere destroying the orchard, in order to evade the payment of the license fee.

Mr. LENNON: Has the farmers' rarty discussed this?

Mr. MORGAN: Never mind. He was ,there on his own, and was not bound, body and soul, like the hon. member, and he was going to express his opinions independent of any mam in the House. This was a matter which affected people in his electorate, and he was going to do what he could to relieve them from the necessity of having to travel miles and miles to get a license to kill opossums .


The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: He could not accept the amendment, because if such a provision were inserted in the Bill it would open the door to evasion and fraud.

Mr. THORN: There was no doubt that the hon. member for Murilla was trying by his amendment to do something for farmers' sons who trapped opossums ~~at were destroying crops, but as the Mtmster h_ad assured the hon. member that under the prmcipal Act they were allowed to do that, he thought the han. member should withdraw his amendment. One thing he should like w refer to, and that was the fact that the Minister in many cases issued new regulations which never came before Parliament. As a farmers' representative he would suggest that instead of imposing disabilities on the farmers, the Minister should endeavour to relieve them of some of the taxation they had to pay. Nothing was heard about the hare.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. member's remarks are wide of the question before the Committee.

Mr. THORN: He just wished to point out that the hare was doing a great deal of injury to farmers, and that it was protected at the present time. He hoped the Government would remove the restriction on killing hares.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: You can kill hares now.

Amendment (llfr. Morgan's) put and negatived.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER moved that the word "become," on line 45, page 2, be omitted, with the view of inserting the words " follow the occupation of." If this amendment were adopted. only professional trappers-men who had a full rig-out and made their living at

Mr. J. M. Hunter.]

2320 Native Animals, Etc., [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

trapping-would be required to be registered and pay the license fee. He happened to know through the business with which he was connected that lads frequently came into town w1th four, five, or six opossum skins in a sugar-bag, and that they sold the skins and gave the money to their mothers. He did not think registration was necessary in such cases, and hoped that the Minister would accept the amendment, and so encourage boys to do that kind of thing.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The hon. member had apparently overlooked the fact that if his amendment were adopted only those persons who were now following the occupatiOn of trappers could get permits, and that, therefore, a monopoly would be created. For that re.ason, and also for the reason that the amendment would open the door to evasion and fraud, he could not accept the amendment. Am~ndment (.iiir. J. ][. Hunter's) put and

negatiVed.

M:. J. M. HUNTER did not see why an apphcant for a permit should have to give seve? days'. notice of an appeal to aJ police magistrate Ill a case where the application had been refused by a clerk.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Make it three days, then.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: He thought one day was sufficient, and moved that the words :' seve:n days' " be omitted, with the view of Inserting " one day's."


Mr. J. M. HUNTER moved the omission of the words "within the pettv sessions dis·

tric£ in which it is issued " on [10 p.m.] lines 5 and 6, page 3. If' those

words were left in it would mean that a trapper in some cases might have to take out two or three licen¥.es. He might go to .Forest Vale, and then cross over into the Lewhhardt district, and he would have to go back GO or 80 miles to get another license because he '~as in another petty sessions district. The one hcense should apply all over Queensland.

Mr. MURPHY: Just like a miner's right.


The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE moved the omission of the words " or other poison," from lines 9 and 10. He believed t~at in cert>:in districts tt would be extremely difficult tc: keep the s)nns unless they were treated with an arsemcal solution, and that was why he a ~reed to the omission of thf' words. I-Ie did not believe in allowing trapners to use the poison for trapping-, but if he left the w'?rds in it would prevent the trappers from keepmg their skins in good condition.


A similar consequential amendment was made on line 17.

Mr. HAMILTON moved the insertion of ~he words "-pnqer the authority of a warrant 1ssuecl by a ]ushce of the peace." This subclause was reminiscent of an Act of Parliament passed during the shearers' strike and called the Peace Preservation Act and it was like the other Act in Ireland called the Coercion Act. The subclause read as follows:-

[6c.] Any member of the Police Force who has reasonable grounds to suspect that there is kept or

[Mr. J. M. Hunter.

stored or had in possession by any person, in or upon any building, hut, tent, or camping place or other premises, or vehicle-

(a) Any native animal, or the carcass of any native animal, or the skin of any native· animal; or

(b) Any cyanide of potassium or other poison; in contravention of this Act, or in respect of which there has been a contravention of this Act, may at any time enter upon and search such building, hut, tent, camping place, premise-s, or vehicle, and any box or package there, and may seize all native a.nimals and carcasses and skins thereof, and any cyanide of potassium or other poison found there,. and may arrest any person found there, or who is. 2.pparently in occupation of or charge of the building, hut, tent, camping plact·, premises, or vehicle, or in possession of such animals, things, or poison,. and take him and all such animals, things, or poison so seized before some justice of the peace.

He agreed to the police having those powers with a arrant, but they were too drastic to give to any policeman without a warrant. There were some excellent officers in the Police Force, a.nd it would he all right in their hands, but there were others that should not have that power at all. He knew that extreme measures had to be taken to cope with the cyanide poisoning, and he believed in giving as wide power as possible, but the polic·e should have a warrant before they were allowed to search a man's house orperson.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: In speaking on the second reading he mentioned that the provision wa.s a drastic one· in order to draw attention to the drastic. methods they proposed to adopt to try, if possible. to put down illegal practices. H<>· was not at all in favour himself of giving the· police power to enter a man's house to search without a. warrant. The clause had been putin because it had been found almost impossible for the police to get a conviction, because if cyanide baits were laid, a.nd theyhad to go and get a warrant, when they came· back they would find the loaits gone and there would be no cyanide within 20 miles. As the power was too drastic, he would accept the· amendment.

HONOURABLE MEMBEBS: Hear, hear !

Mr. MURPHY: \Vhen the Minister introduced the Bill he did not try to mislead the Committee, as he mentioned at the time that the provision wa.s a drastic one. (Hear, hear !) He (Mr. Murnhv) then rose and condemned It at once, bec'ause he considered it was too great power to give to the police. It ~imply· meant that the trappers out in the bush would be hunted about at the policeman's own swe<'t will. He was pleased that the Minister had accepted the amendment.

Amendment agreed to. A consequential amendment was made in·

line 23. Mr. J. M. RGN'l'ER: This clause was a

very drastic one, even with the han. mem-· ber for Gregory's amendment. He took exception to the words in line 24, " may arrest any person found there." That meant that the police might arrest any person found in any building, hut, tent, or camping place or other premises. A trapper might be out with a man or two, and his wife might be in the tent. or a boy might be there; and this would· give power to arrest the woman or the boy.

The PREMIER: Give the police credit for some sense.

Mr. J·. M. HUNTER: The power was· given, and though the great majority of thEl' police would not arre.st a boy under thosE!'·

Nat-ive An£mals, Etc., [~4 NovEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 2321

circumstances, he had known men who would do so. It should be made clear that only the reputed owner eould be arrested. He moved the omission of the wor,ds " any person found there."

Mr. GUNN: It would be better to leave the clause as it stood. Hon. members were probably not all a ware of the seriousness of this question. He wa-s once travelling between Yuleba and St. Gcmge, when a, li-ttle girl picked up a cyanide tin that had been thrown away by some careless opossum trappers and took it to the tank and got a drink of water and fell down dead. It was all right for the trappers to smear trees with cyanide mixed with dough, but they also put bait<J on bits of bark at lick holes-places where stock licked the mline dirt-and cattle and sheep were destroyed by licking the cyanide. As it stood now, the clause was not a bit too drastic.

Mr. BOOKER (Maryborough): The question of using cyanide in opossum districts was too serious to treat lightly. Camping places for stock were usually the best places for opossums ; and cyanide baits were laid about the roots of the trees. Ca.ttle took the baits, and heavy losses were caused, and valuable dogs had been killed through eating the carcasses of opossums that had been cyanided. In the Burnett district the use of cyanide had become most dangerous, and he spoke feelinglv on the subject, because he had lost many valuable animals. Unfortunately, he had paired, so he could not vote against the amendment, but he gave it his opposition.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN hoped the Minister would see fit to accept the amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: No. Mr. O'SULLIVAN: With those words in

the clause a boy cr a woman might be arrested. The liberty of the subject was of far more consequence than the accidental death of a valuable dog.

Mr. MURPHY: Most people who had lived on goldfields knew the deadly nature of cyanide cf potassium. He had ,seen on two or three occasions in the Gulf country men go into a bar, drol? a little piece of cyanide into a glass of whrsky, and be dead almost before the liquor went down their throats. Any child who picked up a cyanide tin and took a drink of water from it would certainly be killed. If they started to tinker further with the clause they would make the Bill ineffective, which would be a bad thing.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: He admitteJ, and most men using cyanide admitted, :that it was very undesirable to have it in use to any extent in connection with the int{ll.<try.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : It is not supposed to be used.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: The Minister knew that it was in usc, and everyone in the country knew it was in usc. It had no right to be in use, and it was destroying the v.,-,-y animals that the trappers were anxiou• to keep.

The PREMIL:R : They arc pulling do ,v"l ib c tree to get the fruit.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER believed they destroyed two-thirds more than they got bv that means, and all the trappers said it

should be stopped. And were it [10.30 p.m.] not for "the other fellow" using

it, they would stop using it; but until some such steps were taken as were proposed in the Bill, they would continue

1910-7 a

to usc it because the other chap used it. The Minister stated there was a difficul-ty in getting convictions and that he had had to make strict regulations to meet the case. He (Mr. Hunter) held sufficiently stringent regulations were contained in the clause. If a person was found in possession of poison, if he had in his possession skins worth £200 or £300, :those skins would be confiscated. He therefore moved the deletion of the words " any person found there or who is apparently in occupation of or charge," on lines 24 and 25, with the view of inserting the words "the reputed owner." That would give the Government sufficient power toplace in the hands of an unscrupulous policeman, who might arrest a lad twelve or fourteen years of age, or perhaps a woman.

The AcTING CHAIRli!AN indicated that the' hon. member's time had expired.

Mr. MORGAN could not support the amendment. Supposing a trapper occupied a boundary rider's hut, the man in occupation would not be the owner, and the squatter would be arrested, as he was the owner of the hut.

Mr. HUNTER: The occupier is the owner for the time being.

Mr. MORGAN thought the hon. member for Gregory got in the only alteration that should be made in the clause-a very necessary alteration, and one that made the clause acceptable to every honest trapper in Queensland. The hon. member for Maranoa stated that there would always bo some injustice done. He (Mr. Morgan) thought the police would use their judgment, and try and get the man or woman who had actually got cyanide in their possession. They wanted to do away with the use of cyanide altogether. They did not want to arrest a man and put him in gaol-they wanted to prevent him having cyanide. They wanted to make the conditions so strict -that the trapper would say the game was not worth the candle.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: While the Minister was so anxious to put down indiscriminate poisoning, as Secre-tary for Railways he had adopted the system of destroying weeds on the railway lines by poison, which was poisoning a lot of birds and animals. He had no _sympathy with the cyanider, but, at the same time, it would be a wise thing for the Minister to accept this very reasonable amendment.

Amendment (Mr. J. 111. Hunter's) put and negatived.

Mr. WALKER asked if proper provision was made for the protection of citrus-growers who might wish to use cyanide in the destruction of fruit pests?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE pointed out that the opossum trapper took c;:anide out in quantities, while the fruitgrower did not use cyanide in any great quantity, and then only in -one season of the year. The fruitgrowcr certainly was not a trapper in the meaning of the Act and was not using cyanide for the purpose of destroying opossums any more than the gold mine:·.

Mr. WIENHOLT thought the clause wes a little defective in lumping all the different offe=es together and providing the same· penalty. He was very pleased to hear hon. members speak very distinctly about the· dangers of cyanide. One hon. member said it was undesirable and another hon. member gaid it was an unfortunate thing. He (Mr.

Mr. Wienlwlt.]

2.l22 I!arsupial Boards Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Wienholt) said it was a damnable thing. The use of poison in an:v connection was a horrible thing, and yet they were only putting the same penalty on the cyanider as on the person who happened to have a skin in his possession, which was killed a few days in the dose season. He therefore moved the insertion of the words "or in the case of having cyanide of potassium a penalty not ·exceeding ten pounds," after the words "five pounds," on line 34. Some distinction should 'be made, and a severer penalty should be placed on the man who u~ed cyanide than on the man who committed any other breach of the Act.

Amendment agreed to ; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

Clause 6-" Amendment> of section 7"put and passed.

Clause 7-" Amendment of section 8"passed with a consequential amendment.

·The House resumed. T11e AcTING OHAIR· MAN reported the Bill with amendments, and the third reading was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

MARSUPIAL BOARDS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

CoMMITTEE. Clauses 1 and 2 put and passed. On clause 3-" Alteration of the yearly

period"-Mr. HARDACRE asked the Minister for

some information with regard to the changes in the dates. Hon. members had not had time to go into the details of the various dausos, and it was somewhat difficult to understand what changes were made .. That was a complicated clause and made a number of alterations.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : There is really only one alteration.

Mr. HARDACRE: There was an alteration of dates in the different sections of the principal Act, and this clause was typical of other elauses in the Bill. He did not think it was a fair thing that the Committee should be asked to pass the Bill to-night, as hon. members had not had time to go into the different clauses to see what they really meant.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The reason for the alteration in the date was that the boards made their assessments on the stock returns which fell due on the 1st of January. The alteration would enable them to collect their aJssessments for the full year, whereas hitherto they had to collect assessments on the returns for one half-year and the returns for another half-year. This change was made for the convenience of the boards.

Mr. LENNON: They had early in the sitting dealt with two very important Bills-two of the most important Bills that had been before the House for thB last twenty yearsand had then put three other Bills through Committee, and he thought it was a fair thing that they should now adjourn. Tho weather was very hot, the.v had h~d a very strenuous week, and the appearance of the Committee showed that members had. done quite enough work for that sitting. I~ all fairness he thought the Government m1ght now adjourn the House.

The PREMIER: Hon. members knew when they started this sitting that the Government

[Mr. Wienholt.

wanted to get those Bills through. He was afraid that they were getting soft and effeminate, because they had been retiring sc early this session. In the early part of the sitting they spent some considerable time doing business which might well have been done in ten minutes, and all the work they had intended to do ]Jlight easily have been don£ by 10 o'clock.

Mr. MURPHY: If the hon. gentleman wanted to stop all night, he could assure him that he had no objection to stay. He was always pleased to sit late at night. They passPd the ,second readings of these Bills thc previous evening without any trouble, and there was no reason why thBy should be asked to go on any further that evening. He objected to the Premier getting up at a quar· ter to 11 o'clock, lecturing members of the Opposition, and telling them that they must stay until certain business was done.

']:he ACTING OHAIRl\lAN: Order' I think hon. members must now get back to the discussion of the clause. The deputy leader of the Opposition and the Premier have spoken in regard' to the question of adjournment, and the disc)lssion must now be confined to the clause before the Committee.

l\Ir. O'SULLIV A:'\: [Ie had not had time to look through the principal Act, and he objected to being compelled to pa:ss this B ll before the House rose.


Mr. O'SULLIVAN: If the Government were going anv further with the Bill, then members of the Opposition would have to give effect to their protest.

::'\Ir. HARDACRE: The Minister had pro· fessed to give an explanation of the change of dates proposed in the clause, but he had only explained the reason for changing the date of the returns for assessment. The clause proposed another alteration in date, and that was a change in the date for elections of memberS" of the boards from June to December. That was a very important matter, and members had no information as to whether that chang<" was acceptable to the membBr·s of the various marsupial boards throughout the State. There wao still another alteration of date which theMinister had not explained, and members could onlv find out what that alteration meant by referi·ing to the principal Act. He thought it was a very unfair thing to ask members to go on with a Bill making so many changes in the existing law at that time of the night.

Mr. LENNON intended to propose an amendment, on line 17, substituting the word "Februarv" for the word "January," and another, on line 19, substituting the word ''November" for "December." The festive season was an inconvenient time for holdin[l· an election of members of boards, and in January the weather was very hot and oppressive. There was a good deal to be said in favour of his proposed amendments, but possibly they m;ght be able ~o regulate those dates bv the following mornmg. He move•l that the word "January," on line 17, h<! omitted, with the view of inserting the worrl "February."

Mr. MURPHY: He should be compelled to support the amendment moved by the deputy leader of the Opposition. It was a very desirable alteration, and he hoped it would be accepted by the Minister.

Questions. [25 NovEMBER.]

Mr. J. M. HUNTER thought the amendment was a very good one, and would sup

.port it. The date mentioned in [11 p.m.] the amendment would serve the

purpose of the boards much better "than the date proposed in the clause, and it seemed to him that they would have a lengthy debate . on the matter, unless the Minister cpromptly accepted the amendment. He urged the Minister to consider whether he would not allow the elimination of these months and substitute the months which had been fore-shadowed.

Mr. GUNN did not think it made any -difference what month they picked. Thev might have the 29th of February or the 1st of

.April. (Laughter.) Mr. O'SULLIVAN: February was a better

month than January in the North, because ..January was a wet month.

The House resumed. The ACTING CHAIR· MAN reported progress, and obtained h•ave to sit again to-n1orrow.

The House adjourned at three minutes past 11 o'clock.

Questions. 2323

Legislative Assembly Hansard 1910

Documents

Transcript of Legislative Assembly Hansard 1910