Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 1877

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

922 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] PeJ•soJwl E.l]Jlanation.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. 1'/zursdny, 6 September, 1877.

Personal Explanation.-retition.-Formal Business.­One~tion.-Ald to Agricnltural Soci.ctics.-Govt~rn­mcnt Advcrthdng.-Adjmtrnmcnt..-Civil Servants aJH1ElccLions.-Adjournmcut.-Yote to :Jirs. Jattp.­Adjotu·ument.

The SFIUKilR took the chair at half-past three o'clock.

PERSO:YAL EXPLANATION. J\fr. l'ErrwuEW "IYishccl to cnll attention

to the fact that in this morning's Couric1· he "IYas rt']Jllrtcd as talcing no part in the cli ,·i:;ion on the I pb>Yieh cu:;tom-hou:;e,

Question. [6 SEPTll:YlllER.] Agrictdturctl Societies. 923

instead o£ voting >Yith the noes. The explanation was, perhaps, that J\Ir. Perkins wa~ rerresentecl as voting with the noes, whereas he voteLl 1vith the ayes.

PETITION.

J\Ir. Grwmr presented a petition from a nu m bn of intending scleetors in Queens­land from Yictoria and New South \Y ales, ;vith rofcrcncc to the Land Act of 1868, and praying relief.

Petition read and recci ved.

FORMAL BUSll\E3S.

The follo\\·ing motions were passed:­By J\Tr. BFzAcor·r-That there be laid upon the table of this

House, a return of all furthe1· corre,pondence rela1ing the bridge over Cttnleron's Cutting, Korthern Railway.

By M:r. SrEw.mr-'I'hat this House will, on Tlmrsdav, the 13th

installt, resolve it self into a Committee of the '\V hole, to consicler of the desirableness of intro­ducing a Bili to amend "Tlte Licensed Publi­cans' Act of 1863."

l\Tr. I'ALC.Illl\ movcd·-:For lcttvc to introtluee a Bill to giYc cffecL in

this colony to (,he al1 emt ion of !110 name of " The Liverpool and LollLlon Fire mul Life Insumnce Comp:my," and to mmhle " The Liverpool and Lonrlon and Globe Insumnce Company" to sne and be sued in the name of the Cmnpttny and fur other pnrposes connect eel therewith.

Bill prc•,entcd, road a first time, ancl rdcrrccl to a select committee, consisting of l\Ir. Bcaltic, l\Ir. Tyrcl, :\Ir. Mcllwraith, JYir .• John Scott, and Mr. Palmcr.

l\Ir. P.EITIGREW moved-That there be ltticl upon the table of this

House,-1. A return of all lands offered for sale by

auction, OJ' forfeit-ed selections, under !he vari­ous Lands Acts that lmvo been in force up to ls! 1\larcll, 1877.

2. All lamls that httve been surveyed, but not offered fo1· sale, under The Lttud Act of 11-\76.

;J. These returns to apply to land districts of \V est Morcton and lichdon.

Question put ancl passed.

QUI<:STION.

l\Ir. SrKWART asked the Attorney-Gene­ral-

1. IIttve tbo GoYernmcnt had under their consideration the necessity for reconling the judgments of the Northern district in the Supreme Court, Brisbane, so ns to make the recorcl eo m p lete ?

2. \\'ill they take the neeessar.r steps to gain Umt end?

The ATTOR~EY-GE~ER.I.L (l\Ir. GriJiith) replied-

The attention of the Government lms not been pn•yiouo1y f'Hlled !o the lllitt1er. The

object desired could probttbly be effected by rules of court, and it is proposed to bring the matter under the notice of the judges of the Supreme Court for their consideration.

AID TO AGRICULTURAL SOCIETIES. JYir. Gnoo:-.r moYcd-That this House ·will, at its next sitting,

resolve itself into a Committee of the ·whole, for the consideration of the following resolu­tions:--

1. Thttt this House will grant aiel to Agricul· tural and Horticultural Societies on the follow­ing conditions:-

2. That any such society shall have been in existence for ttt lmst twelve months prcTious to applictttion being made on its behalf, and slmll consist of not less than fifty members, ,,.]Jose subscriptions for the current year shall have boon paiclttt !he time of such application.

3. '!.'hat the subscriptions actuttlly paid for the current year for which such application shall be mttcle shall amount to not less than £50.

4. Tlmt the aid granted to any such society shall not exceed £ l for £1 misecl by private contribution within !he current yca1·.

5. That an Address be presented to ihe Gov­ernor, pmying that His Excellency ,,.m be pleased to eause provision to be made in the additional Supplementary Estimates for 1877-8 for carrying out the foregoing resolutions.

In moving this rc~o1ution he might perhaps he nermittcd to inform the House of the reason why he had tabled his resolutions in this form. In 1864 he had brought forward a series of resolutions of a similar charac­ter, iu which the Government were author­ized to give aid to agricultural and hor­ticultural societies llllO!l the conditions named in the resolutions, ancl the limit then prescribed to any one society was £100 in a year. The circumstances bc­t>Yecn 186-1< and 1877 hacl very much changml. The societies hacl now grown into positions of importance, both as regarded m cm bcrs and exhibitors, though perhaps they hacl not assumed the magnitude they might haYc reacht'cl because the small amounts they recciYecl from the Govern­ment were not commensurate \Yith the sub­scriptions raised by private individuals. His object in asking the House to assent to these motions in their present form was that the societies might be encouraged to extend their operations for goocl. He be­lieved that all the societies established in the various districts of tho colony hacl achieved an immense amount of good; that they had incited a >Yholcsomc spirit of emulation, ancl brought a lnrge number of people together who might not othcr"ll-ise ha Ye met; while the exhibitions lhry had promoted had been everywhere acknow­ledged l o he of a most satisfactory charac­ter. These things could not haYc hap­pened without great good resulting, not only to the districts immediately concerned, but to the colony generally, MaDy of

924 Aid to [ASSEMBLY.] Agricultztretl Societies.

these societies, he was sorry to say, had been obliged to embarrass themselYes in order to erect the buildings necessary to carry on their operations ; and he was not ashamed to confeus-as the honourable member for Port Curiis had to confess the other evening-that he had had to make himself personally responsible by giving security for buildings erected in connec­tion with a society ; and he had done so in the full belief that the society was a good one, and that he was assisting a meritorious cause. He asked the House to remember that the vario11S officers of these societies were perform­ing a large amount of gratuitous ser­vice. As a rule, there was only one officer paid-namely, the secretary ; and in most cases his salary was very small indeed. What the National Society had effected in Brisbane, similar societies had effected; and were effecting, in the outside districts in a proportionate degree; and he believed that if the additional assistance he now asked for was given, the orerations of these soeieties and their influence would be widely extended for the public good. It had been suggested to him that he should in these resolutions state a limit; but he was prepared to leave that question to the House, because if he said that the limits should not exceed £200, there were socie­ties in the colony whose existence would be imperilled. Ho was, of course, quite pre­pared to leave the matter to honourable mem­bers; but at the same time he would remark that there were some societies which he shoulcl be sorry to see excluded-societies that were doing a vast amount of good in a quiet way, and which were really entitled to assistance. He would call the attention of honourable members to the second reso­lution. It had been suggested to him that he ought not to make any limitation what­ever as to public societies in existence ; but to that he was prepared to take exception, thinking the Government and the country should have a bona fides from public socie­ties, certifying that they had been a certain time in existence, had a certain number of members, and that a certain amount of money had been subscribed. It would then be known that the society had some­thing more than an ephemeral existence and name, and was likely to continue as a permanent institution. It would not be necessary to detain the House upon the abstract question involved in these resolu­tions; that had been debated before, and was already the law of the land so far as a subsidy of £100 was concerned. His object, of course, was that the subsidies to these societies should be increased. \Vhether it should be an unlimited pound for pound, or should not exceed a stated sum would be a question for the House to decide. He would not detain the House further, as the question had been so

frequently discussed, but would content himself with moving the resolutions stand­ing in his name.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said he wished the honourable member had made hio reso­lutions a little more definite, as he could hardly accept them in their present form, on account of their involving such an enormous expenditure of public money. The hon­ourable member for Darling Downs brought down a subscription list the other day amounting to some £750.

Mr. GRAHAM: No. The CoLoNIAL SEcRETARY said the amount

was at all events a very large one, sub­scribed towards the Toowoomba Agricul­tural Society. He had also had an inti­mation from the honourable member for Rockhampton that he intended to ask for a large sum ; and no doubt other honourable members would press the claims of their local societies on the Government. He believed that. agricultural societies were valuable and Important; but a number of little societies were springing up all over the colony which would be of no use "'hat­ever, and which were established only for the purpose of getting the Government subsidy. He should be pleased to see this question settled upon some gonera.l prin­ciple; and his opinion was, that after assist­ing those societies to erect their premises Government ought not to give them another shilling. If they could not exist on private subscriptions it would be far better that they should cease to exist altogether. There was never an institution of any kind started in Queensland, but the first thing its promoters did was to npply to the Government for funds, and he looked upon that as a radically wrong system. He would suggest-and he hoped the honoura­ble member would accept his suggestion­that the subsidy to be based on pound for pound subscribed shall in no case exceed £150; and if that suggestion was accepted, he should be quite willing to aliow ihe motion to pass without further ·opposition. If a sum equal to the amount of the subscrip­tions was given to one society, other appli­cations of the same kind could not be refused ; and if that system was carried out it would cost the country something like £10,000 a-year.

Mr. GRAHA~l said he cordially endorsed the statements of the honourable member for Toowoomba, on the ground that as the principle had been adopted in the case of the National Association, local societies would bo simihtrly entitled to assistance at the hands of the Government. The amount for which he intended to ask on behalf of the Toowoomba society did not amount to the sum stated by the Colo­nial Secretary; in fact it did not exceed the amount that that honourable gentleman freely granted to the soeiety in Ipswich, without having any knowledge that a similar

Aid to [6 SEPTEMBER.) Agric1tltural Societies. 925

amount had been subscribed by the public. The Colonial Secretary had admitted that on the formation of these societies it might be right to assiRt them in the erection of their buildings. But, as a matter of fact, they were constantly erecting buildings, and during last year the society at Toowoomba erected buildings at a cost of about £1,000. He thought the principle of pound for pouncl was a fair basis to go upon; and coming down to particulars, he did not see why the society at Toowoomba should be put on a different footing from those at Brisbane and Ipswich.

Mr. BAILEY said these shows were so much supported by townspeople that they wore degenerating into bazaars; but in many parts of the country farmers were extremely n,nxious to hn,ve a show of their own once n, year, for agriculture and stock. They were not, as a rule, a rich class of people, and if grants were given at the rate of pound for pound subscribed they would be able to have their own purely agricul­tural shows without coming to the towns­people for subscriptions. In Tiaro, for mstance, the farmers would like to have an annual show; but without the subsidy they could not do so without raising money from the storekeepers n,t Maryborough; and that was much to be deprecated on many grounds. Agricultural shows in the farm­ing districts would be a great benefit to the country, and no Colonial Secretary should begrudge £100 for a society formed for any such useful purpose.

Mr. "\V ALSH said it was well known that he wn,s very much opposed to Government subsidies to these private institutions, and on that ground he intended to propose two amendments in the resolutions moved by the honourable member for Toowoomba. The first was to introduce the worcl "pas­toral" after the word "agricultural" in the first resolution; and the second was to add after the fourth the words, " nor in the aggregate more than £200 per annum." He was glacl to fincl that both the Colonial Secretary and the honourable member for Toowoomba would be willing to accept those amendments; and although he depre­cated giving even that amount to such institutions, still he considered that the compromise would be expedient.

The first n,menclme11t was put ancl passed. Mr. GRAHAM objected to the mover of

the resolutiom accepting the second amend­ment of the honourable member for War­rego, because he could see no reason why one part of the colony should be trea.ted in one way ancl another in another. He hacl heard many honourable members express their convictions that in the event of pound for pound being granted for Brisbane the same principle should be carried out in all other localities. To some institutions the sum of £200 would make very little differ-

ence-especially when, as in the case of Toowoomba, they had succeeded in raising £500 or £600 by private subscriptions.

Mr. PALMER said he should support the resolutions as they stood. The motion of the honourable member for W arrego, con­fining the Government subsidy to £200 a-year, was, in his opinion, to say the least of it, absurd, ancl would not be of the slightest use, for any honourable member who could get a majority with him could upset it. If the National Association wanted next year £1,000, and a motion to that effect was macle, if a majority of the members supported it the resolution would be perfectly useless. The principle had been cn,rried out so far, that all associations which approved themselves to the Colonial Secretary as doing good work in the country were entitled to pound for pound for what they actually raised by private subscrip­tion; ancl he was quite sure the revenue of the colony would not suffer by it. At all events, he was not in favour of helping one society ancl refusing all but an infinitesimal amount of aiel to another. He clicl not think the Government need be afraid of paying away an extravagant sum in this manner ; in fact, the more they paicl away for such purposes the better would it be for the colony.

Mr. BELL said the resolutions had his cordial support, as they tended towards protection, although how free-trade mem­bers could support them he could not under­stand. As protected societies were found to clo good to the colony, so would a pro­tective policy a] so clo good, and he hope cl yet to see it generally applied. ~

Mr. GROOM said the Colonial Secretary was doing the colony much injury by so constantly asserting that institutions of all kinds were continually applying to the Government for assistance. · The fact was, that in no colony of the Australian group were fewer applications made to the Gov­ernment for assistance than in this very colony of Queensland; ancl abundant proof of that assertion might be found i£ honour­able members would only look abroad and see what the settlers were doing. While the House was called upon to vote £1,000 per annum for agricultural societies out­side the National Society, New South Wales voted £4,000 for the same purpose ; ancl Victoria, with its Board of Agricul­ture, distributed from £8,000 to £10,000 a-year to its various agricultural societies, besides giving a distinct grant of £2,000 for prizes for cereals alone. That liber­ality hacl been an immense benefit to Victoria. Irt America not only was the settler allowed to purchase land at 5s. per acre, without restrictions or condi­tions, but grain was supplied to him, and everything else to enable him to settle on the land. In France, even agricultural teachers were sent throughout

926 Aid to [ASSEMBLY.] Agricu1tuml Societies.

the provinces to teach farmers the science of their profession; and simply because he came forward here, an:l asked for the paltry sum of £3,024 outside the 1'\ational Society, the House was to be told that the colonists of Queensland were constantly coming down and asking for Government aid. He protested against it. There was a spirit of manly self-reliance existing among the people which any nation might be proud of. But it was one of the duties of the Gov­ernment in a young colony to help the struggling farmers, more especially after a disastrous season like the present had hitherto been. Personally he had no objection to accept the limit of £200, exce1Jt on the grounds stated by the honourable member for Darling Downs. Ho believed the National Society had done a great cleal of good for Queensland, ancl the colony would reap the benefit of it in time to come. He did not give his vote for the grant to that society on the ground that other societies were to be treated in a similar manner; at the same time hll was of opinion that the resolutions as they stood would do no harm. If people raised large private subscriptions in aiel of these societies it showed that they had their hearts in the country's welfare, and the gift of an equal sum by the Government would enable them to do a vast amount of good.

. Mr. MoRGAN said it \Yas dear to him that this was another attempt to milk the State cow. The honourable member for Toowoomba had said a great deal about the benefit that was deriYed from agricul­tural shows, and he was not going to deny it; but he was prepared to say that the so­called agricultural shows were simply stock exhibitions, and that farmers' pro­duce was generally conspicuous by its absence. The honourable member had also alluded to the subsidies given by New t::louth vV ales and Victoria; but in com­parison with the population and revenue of those colonies Queensland contributed a great deal more to the assistance of these ~ocieties. He had been at the show held in the Toowoomba distrid, and could say that a shed half the size of the chamber would have held the farmers' produce there exhibited. Stock was the main kind of exhibit, and it was brought there more for advertising than for any other purpose. 'l'he majority of the supporters of the Too­woomba Society were wealthy stockowners, who could easily afford to contribute if the limit proposed by the amendment of the honourable member for \Varrcgo was not sufficient. He (Mr. Morgan) represented :1 better agricultural district than the hon­ourable member for Toowoomba, and he would be very well satisfied with an annual subsidy of £200. Allusion had been made to disastrous seasons, and the necessity of relieving farmers; but he would point out to honourable members that to hold agri-

cultural shows prosperous seasons were wanted. He would vote for the amend­ment if it came to a diYision.

The CoLONIAL SEcRETARY, in reply to what had fallen from the honourable mem­ber for Toowoomba, said he would like to know how the country would benefit by the exhibition of cases of drapery, silks, and satins, such as had been shown at the late exhibition of the National Association P That exhibition was nothing more than a big bazaar. The honourable member had also alluded to the assistance that was given in New South 1\r ales and Vic­toria; but he maintained that, in com­parison with the population, this colony gave more in the way of subsidies than those colonies-that it gave in the pro­portion of two to one. ..When the depu­tation waited on him to ask for a grant of £1,500 for the National Association, he asked the honourable member for Port Curtis if the society intended coming down every year for assistance P-anel that hon­ourable member said " No ; we want the money to assist in the erection of build­iugs." He believed that it was right to assist these associations to enclose thC'ir grounds and erect their buildings, and tha,t if they could not get on after that without help from the Government, they had better fall to pieces ; they could not be under any very grer;t expense after that . It would be very desirable to luwe some general principle laid down upon which the assistance to these institutions should be granted. The present state of affairs was very unsatisfactory, because there was no knowing where to stop.

Mr. McLEAK should support the resolu· tions in their original form. He held that if one society ~obtained a certain yote, such as had been granted the Brisbane society lately, other societies ought to be assisted on the same principle. The honourable the Colonial Secrl'tary and some other honourable members seemed to think that these wrieties should reach per· fection at once, and eYidently forgot that they were only in their infancy. The exhibits at the late Brisbane exhibition were highly creditable, and in a short tim~' they would prove highly benPficial to the colony. He also maintained that such exhibitions were the Ycrv ones which would enable the farmers O'f the colony to tide over the disastrous seasons to whieh allusion had been madP, because by moans of the higher class of implemcmts with which they were made acquainted they would be able to get their lands under a better state of cultinttion, and >Yould be better prepared for such seasons. X ew South \Vales und Victoria were illustra­tions of this. Some t>Yellty-flvc years ago the opinion was generally expressed that a cabbage could not be grown in Victoritt; but now that colony was one of the finest

Aid to [G SEPTE~ITIER.] Agricultural Societies. 927

agricultural lauds in the world, simply because the Government had assisted the colonists. It was highly essential that tlwse societies should be enconragecl, brcause thev did the work of institutions which he bcli'cved Government would some day have to establish-namely, schools of agricul­ture for the giving of a technical education to those who would in future be engaged in the cultivation of the soil. In the inter­os ts of the country societies, he o bjccted to a limit being placed on the amount of assistance. They stood more in need of help than the town societies, not hav­ing the same scope for raising subscrip­tions.

Nir. J. ScoTT intendecl to support the resolutions in their original form, not thinking it fair that one society should be assisted on a different principle to the others. He thought it would be a great inducement to people to subscribe to those societies if they knew that their contribu­tions "'ould be supplemented to an equal amount by the Government. As respeeted the late exhibition, he considered that there was a very fair show of stock, and that there was a larger amount of machinery and labour-Raving appliances shown than the honourable Colonial Secretary ever Raw at one })lace in his life-except, perhaps, during his vist to America. Th~ CoLONIAL TnEASUIUlR said he quite

coincided with the views which had been expressed, that it was desirable that the State should encourage these societies, but it was also the duty of the State to sec that they were not improperly assisted. At the present time a certain sum was annually a11propriated for thc>e institutions, and "ll'as administered according to certain condi­tions ; and when more applications "~ere put in than the appropriation warranted, thry were submitted to the House. He would remind honourable members that, in connection with these claims, there was no sa1isfactory check upon the subscription lists on which they were based. It was all very wl'll to say that they should be chech'cl Ly an audit from the Audit Depart­ment; but difficulties presented themselves m the way of this being clone. Looking at the action of the past, the House had boon sufficiently liberal to grant additional assistanee when bona fide claims had been put forward, and he did not think that honourable members who were interested in these associatiom need fear that the House would not be equally liberal in the future. Unless some limit were placed on the action of the Exe­cutive as to the amount of assistance that should be given, the door would bG opened to a very large demand being made every year, and in time it would attain to such dimensions as to interfere with the finaneial arrangements. Un­les~ some limit were fixed it would

be better to allow things to remain as they are ; it would not exelude asso­ciations which had larger subscription lists from coming before the House for additional assistanee. He was surprised that the member for Port Curtis should dissent from this view, especially after what had fallen from him on the occasion that the Tote to the National Association was discussed, when, according to Hansard, he expressed the opinion that these asso­ciations ought to be self-supporting, and that if the Brisbane institution could not manage without assistance for the future, it should go to the wall. The people were too much used to being assisted; and he trusted that there would be some limitation to these demands, and some guide laid down for the action of the Executive in dealing with these claims.

Mr. BuzACOTT said when the vote of £1,500 for the National Association was before the House he had stated that, if that amount was given, the other societies should be assisted on the same principle, and that he would ask for assistance on behalf of the society which he represented. The subscriptions of that society since its estab­lishment amounted to nearly £1,000; but the GoYernment contributions only came to £:280. The actual receipts this season came to £:262. Considering that many of the subscribers to the local societies also contributed to the central association, it was rather hard to say that the local societies should only be assisted from the State to the extent of £100. He thought that if these rPsolutions were accppted as introduced they would not do a great deal of harm; and he presumed that if it was found in the future that they pressed too heavily upon the finanocs, another reso­lution could very easily be brought forward. Certain it was that if the pound for pound principle was ap})licd to all societies the dissatisfaction which now existed would be clone away with. He would also embrace the opportunity of directing the attention of the Colonial Secretary to the fact that the accommodation in the Rockhamptou hospital was not sufficient ; and he did feel that it was necessary hospitals should be provided for before agricultural societies. He sympathized, to a great extent, with the fears of honourable members on the other side with respect to these resolutions; but, as he had said before, if it was found that they were too hea>y a tax on the national resources another resolution could be brought forward. As to the remarks of the honourable member for Dalby, with refer­once to proteetion, he wished to point out to him that protection was intended to sup­port and create industries whieh would not establish themselves; subscriptions to agri­cultural societies and hospitals could not, therefore, b0 viewed in the light of pro­tection.

928 Aid to [ASSEMBLY.] Agricultural Societies.

Mr. GRIMES said honourable members were apt, to some extent, to lose sight of the fact that they were occupying a country where the people had almost everything to learn, and that these associations were probably the best means of disseminating the knowledge required. His sympathies were in favour of the original resolution, and he considered that, provided a check was placed by a proper audit upon the subscriptions, the House might accept it as a sufficient guarantee, that the people who contributed would see that the money was properly expended in their own interest. There was one thing which this colony lacked more than the Southern colonies. There the wealthy classes took a real inter­est in the future progress and success of their colony, and gave material assistance; but this was not the case here. In Queens­land the desire seemed to be to amass as much wealth as possible, and then to leave the colony; and he thought it was this spirit which lay at the bottom of the want of success of our public institutions. He did not blame those gentlemen in the coun­try districts who had put their shoulders to the wheel that they should desire assist­aace from the Government, for the fact was, that unless they could show immediate results from their efforts they were not likely to meet with sympathy and get help. He would support the resolutions as pro­posed, for he believed that it would be a sufficient guarantee for economy when the people themselves subscribed an equal amount to the Government grant. He wished, before he sat clown, to vindicate the exhibition of the National Association from the character given it by the Colonial Secretary-that of being only a big bazaar. He admitted that it partook too much of that character, and was almost too cosmo­politan. These shows should be carried out more for the exclusive benefit of the colony, which was too young yet to be able to help others ; when it was stronger it might be able to do so. But honourable members must remember that other tastes besides theirs had to be gratified. Ladies and others, whose visits added considerably to the income of the association, had tastes to be consulted, and some attention should be paid to their wishes if not of an injurious nature. These exhibitions, de­voted chiefly to showing the progress of the colony in agriculture and mechanical arts, would be of great service ; for there were so many industries whose successful estab­lishment depended entirely on the existence of other manufactures, the production of raw material, and the facilities for repair­ing machinery. In this respect theN ational Association was entitled to especial con­sideration, for it went outside the bounds of ordinary agricultural and pastoral shows.

Mr. PERKINS said that agriculturists deri>ed very little benefit from these exhi-

bitions. It was very well known that there was little sympathy between them and another class, members of which had made such an effort to open the large show at Bow en Park. He thought honour­able members should be on their guard when these shows were concerned. The last one was simply a method of carrying stock about the country free of cost, adver­tising, and selling it. I£ this plan of hold­ing shows was continued all public interest in them would die out. Up to the present time a good deal of excitement had been worked up in the country, and visitors to the last show had probably spent £100,000 in Brisbane. But where was the enthu­siasm among the exhibitors P Was there any business clone P Any stock sold P He could see nothing in the place that everyone in the colony had not seen before. There were a lot of old ploughs and harrows, and a fruit-drying apparatus that any tinker in the place could make. The only new things he saw were a bread-cutter and a blackfellow' s mummy from Cairns. The honourable member for Toowoomba pre­tended that his motion would benefit the farmers; but he (Mr. Perkins) denied it. There was the last show at that town, where the objects of the two societies were so different that they had two pieces of ; land. A visitor going to one found a few bundles of hay and bags of corn, no enthu­siasm, and small prizes. Going to the other, all the talk was about wool, and he got tired of it-was overdosed with rams and bulls. He thought if a show was held one year in one part of the colony and another time in a different part, it might be advantageous ; but the people could not stand the drain of these perpetual shows. Farmers here, he must admit, had to con­tend with a soil and climate which were both new to them ; and with a view to encourage agriculture and settlement he would vote for the resolution, although he had his doubts about it.

Question-That the words proposed to be added, be added-put.

The House divided :­AYES, 16.

Messrs. Douglas, G-riffith, Dickson, Miles, G. Thorn, Walsh, Foote, Bailey, 0' ullivan, J. Thorn, Low, Macrossan, Stewart, Morgan, Pettigrew, and Morehead.

NoEs, 16. Messrs. Palmer, :NicLean, Stevenson, Fox,

Buzacott, Graham, Mcilwraith, Beattie, Bell, Groom, Ivory, Grimes, Perkins, Kingsford, Hockings, and J. Scott.

The SPEAKER said that, ns the matter would have to come before the House again, he would give his casting vote with the ayes.

Question, therefore, resolved in the affirmative.

Resolution, as amenclecl, then put and passed.

AdJournment. [6 SEPTE:MBER.] Civil Servants and Elections. 929

GOVERNMENT ADVERTISING. Mr. IvoRY said that, as the report which

he was about to bring forward had been a long time in the hands of honourable mem­bers, who had, no doubt, made themselves thoroughly acquainted with its contents, he thought he would best consult their convenience by moving it without further remark. He moved accordingly-

That the report from the Select Committee appointed to inquire into and report on all matters connected with Government advertising, laid on the table of this House on the 2nd instant, be adopted. No one, he thought, could find fault with the report, the conclusion of which was in accordance with the facts contained in it.

Question put and passed.

ADJOURNMENT. Mr. vV ALSH moved the adjournment of

the House, for the purj)OSe of asking the Minister for Lands, without notice, whether it was true that a land sale had been held that day in the vicinity of Brisbane P

The MINISTER FOR I~ANDS : Yes. lVIr. W ALSH asked if it was a fact that

no due notice of the sale had been given, and that it had taken people by surprise P

The MINISTER FOR LANDS : No. Mr. vV ALSH said that a certain citizen

had told him that no announcement of this sale had been made for the last three weeks ; that he had been prepared to attend as a buyer, but had been taken by surprise when he learnt it came off to-day without proper notice. The land sold was in the vicinity of the proposed railway to Bulimba.

The MINISTER l'OR LANDS said that due notice of the sale had been given in the Government Gazette and the public papers.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: Three or four weeks ago?

The PREMIER said that the sale had been advertised in the usual way; and as a proof that sufficient publicity had been given to it, he might mention that there had been a large attendance and satisfac­tory prices. A very large sum per acre had been realized,-the purchasers being to a considerable extent settlers in the neigh­bourhood.

Mr. vV ALSH said that the gentleman who gave him the information was one of the keenest land speculators in Brisbane, an old resident, a member of Parliament, and a wealthy man. If due publicity had been given to the sale he would have known all about it, and he told him (Mr. W alsh) that from insufficient notice the land had not realized the price it might have done.

Mr. PAUIER said that as the Government had swallowed, without a word, a report which conveyed a vote of censure on them, and especially on the Minister for vVorks, it appeared that they had become frightened, and were now inclined to go to the other

extreme in advertising. From what he knew of the gentleman the honourable member for vVarrego alluded to, he was sure that if proper notice had been given he would have known of the sale.

Question put and negatived.

CIVIL SERVANTS AND ELECTIONS. Mr. O'SuLLIVAN moved-That in the opinion of this House the time

has arrived when persons in the employ of the Government should be prevented from voting at any election for a member of this Assembly, or of taking any part whatever in such elec­tions.

That an Address be presented to the Gov­ernor, praying that His Excellency may be pleased to cftuse effect to be given to this resolu­tion. He said that his only object in putting this motion on the business paper was to draw the attention of the House to a great and growing evil which must sooner or later be remedied, not only in this but in all Aus­tralian Parliaments. He thought that it was a gross violation of the principles of gov­ernmcnt, and of the social compact, when any paid gentleman, except a Minister of the Crown, became a member of Parlia­ment, either directly in the Legislature or indirectly in the Upper House, or by the votes of the servants of the State. It took the public servant away fTom his proper IJlace and made him a master instead of a servant, and consequently his own master ; and it placed him in a position that the Constitution never intended,--it made him part of the Government whieh must be a power above the servant. In a word, it exalted him above himsel£, and if it did that the result would be subversive of all law and order. If Government might be defined as a contrivance of human wisdom, to provide for human wants, was not the employment of the servant a part of those wants, and were not those servants to be employed and paid by that power above themselves and not by themselves P They should not, the.refore, be allowed to send re­presentatives into the House with their votes to grant, and, at pleasure, to increase their own salaries and become the Government themselves. 'l'he sound principle that interested parties should not vote for themselves was already acknowledged and acted upon in this colony. It was on that principle that Government contractors were excluded from the House, and that Min­isters of the Crown had to go back for re-election to their constituents. It was on the same principle that the police, m.en and officers, were excluded from Parha­ment; and he might go further and say, that on the same principle a wholesale spirit merchant was not allowed to sit on the licensing bench where he was person­ally concerned. In fact, it was on the

930 Ci1'il Servants [ASSEMBLY.] and Elections.

same principle that the mcml1cr of Parlia. ment was excluded from sitting on a divi­sion, supposing he was }Jersonally con­CPrncd in the matter at issue. He would like to ask why the principle should not be carried a httle further by excluding Ci,,il serYants from voting, seeing that it was but an extension of the principle now in ordinary practil'o. Although he had held this opinion himself for a great many years, his immediate reason for bringing it into Parliament at the present time was a lead­ing article in the Brisbane Courier of the 9th July. That article handled the sub­jo•ct in a very able way, and commented upon two articles on the same subject which had appeared in the S,ydney lriorning Her­ald of the 25th and 2Dth of June. ·with the permission of the House he would read a few extraets from that article, and begged to remind the House that what he was reading were comments on things spoken of in the two articles in the Sydney Morning Herald:-

"The example of the United Stutes is brought forward to 5how that, under a Democratic form of GoYernment, the iufiuence of a large mass of office-holders and office-seekers is prejudicial to the maintenance of a pure Administration, and fayourablo to corruption; and we are reminded tlmt the proportion of our population which draws Government pay must always be larger in these colonies than it is in America, since here the railways, telegraphs, and many other works, which there are he],] by private com­panies, arc in the hands of GoYernment."

The reasons were then g1ven for quoting from the article-

" Every word that we have quoted is fully as applicable to Queensland as to New South \V ales. The proportion of our population which is in one way or another employecl by GoYernmcnt is already far too large. In many constituencies Government employees and their relatives already infiuence the elections; they press upon the candidates for Parliamentary honours, and the members of Parliament put pressure on the Ministry of the day, and so each year the number and cost of the public servants is increased, and with their numbers their political power is augmented, and the difficulty of controlling them or of governing economically becomes greater."

Again, it said-" Every newspaper in the colony has de­

nounced the extravagance which is shown by the Goycrnment in this respect, and mem­bers of Parliament have been virtuously indig­nant when pointing it out to their constituents ; yet every month sees an augmentation of the already large number of Civil servants, and no earnest effort is made by any political party to stop it 01' to effect a reel uction.

"The support of the public servants is now too valuable to be thrown away by any action which would be displeasing to them. About six per cent. of the adult male population of Queensland are permanently employed in the serYice of Goyernment, and if the men em-

ployecl on roads and bridges and on the main­tenance of our r,i]ways are included, the pro­portion will be brought up to probably twelve per cent. ; and if those employed under con­tracts m executin r public works were also to be taken into account, it will be found that between twenty and twenty-five per cent. of our work­ing population are employed by Government at the prese.1t time.

" Whatever plan might be adopted to rdorm our railway management, however, there can be no doubt that the future welfare of the colony is seriously imperilled by the fact that a very large and constantly increa,ing propor­tion of our population is drawing Government pay. As the political power of this section of the community increases, the welfare of the generul tax-payer, as well as all considerations of good goYernment and of safe finance, will be gradually sacrificed to satisfy their demands until, log-rolling and jobbery haying developed into undisguised corruption, the end shall come with a crash ruinous b all."

If that was the state of things at the pre­sent time, what must it be when the six or seven railways were started, and they had Government employees to carry on those works? But, looking at that, and considering the little work that hacl been going on lately, they might very safely arrive at the conclusion that in the course of a few years the Government employees in the colony would be the masters, and the colony would be, in fact, a huge work­shop. Fanners, and those engaged in other interests would be simply outside the pale -growing cabbages and eschalots, like Chinamen, for those who would be swal­lowing up the revenue and voting it to themselves. The rapidity with which they were even now increasing, without any of theRe new works, was thus stated in a leading article in the 1'elegraplL of the 21st of last month:-

" 3,104 persons were immediately employed by Government at. the last census. The increase, dul'ing the fiye years from the previous number­in" of the inhabitants was 1,035, or at the rate of ovn fifty per cent. Bat the bare figmes do not convey the full extent and meaning of the facts. These people are nearly all male adults, and, therefore, voters. They are bound together by a common interest that runs counter to the interests of the rest of the people; for, whereas every man not employed by Government is direc!ly concerned in the retrenchment of the )2.ublic expenclitnre; every man employed by Government is directly concerned in increasing the public expenJ•ture to the extent of aug­menting his emoluments. As this can be easie t done by going in for a general increase of pay, and for a general extension of Government fur,ctions, it follows that we have here a distinct class whose w .tchword must be interpreted to mean ' extl·avagance,' as against the rest of the people, whose advantage is centred in a careful husband[ng of the public funds." He had paid much attPntion to the matter, and framed the clauses of the motion very carefully. The idea struck him that in

Civil Servants [6 SErTE)rDER.] and Elections. 931

neither of the leading articles mentioned was any remedy suggested; and he thought the cheapest, easi.:st, and most constitu­tional way of remedying it would ba to de­]Jri >e Ci Yil servants of their votes. This idea had occurred to him at the moment, but he was by no means wedded to it. He had brought the matter before the House thinking that honourable members might fincl some better remedy. No better one had occurred to him, howe>er, but he hop,.d that something better would be introduced b,y other honourable mem­bers, wlwn he would be very haJlPY to fall in with their ideas : but it struck him very forcibly that nothing better could be done at the present time. Since the resolution had been put on the paper, it hacl been objected thnt thE' thing was unconsti tntional, and that it could not be properly done. It was ob­jected that all those who paid tan•s should have votes-that it was a right o£ »hich no one could deprive them. He made no answer to that objection at the time; but would now say something on the matter. He must deny that any man had any right to that which was calculated to injure the State. He took that gl'ound, and would also assert that if the vote of a Civil ser­vant was considered to be illegal the House had a rerfect right-as a power aboYe the servants of the State-to abolish it, if the fault >Yas palpable. He would also aclmowh•dge that every man had a sort o£ natm·al right ; bt1t Go>ornments had existed, and did exist, \Yithout paying any great attention to them. He exl),'Ctecl that the motion would lmve been VL'ry unpopu­lar, but had been very greatly and very agrreahly surprised to find that a largo mtmb<>r of the employees of the Govern­ment were vel'\' much in favour o£ it, and some of tlui'm had actually come and thanked him for bringing forward the motion. Many of them had authorized him to mention to the House that fully two-thirds of the employees of the GoYcrn­ment ·would hl' glad if this motion were carried. They saicl that, if it were carried, they would no longer be the ]Wrsonal poli­tical prol1crty of the Ministry of (.he hour, and that th,,n the1y uould be their own masters. They said that at election times, when feelings ran very high, they wore in danger from sneaking fellows running about spying, to carry stories to the :\finis­tors, in order to ingratiate themselves. If this measure wore carried thPy >vould be rid of all these things. TIH'Y >vould not be expected to take any part in politics, nor be pestered with indirect hints to vote this way or that way. He knew that if any political sull'ering were occa­sioned by the passing of this vote, he would be as great a sufferer ns any­one. In all the elections he had ever contested in Queensland, he had always had a large share of the votes of Gov-

ernment employees somehow or other. He hnd never endeavoured in any way to injure them. Their present position was opposed to thP Constitution, and they felt it very murh themselves. He had no per­sonal feelings in the matter, and, as regarded the carrying of the resolution, he was perfectly indifferent. He had only put it before the country, seeing that the evil existed. The Press were taking the matter up, and he thought some action ought to be taken in the matter. He knew an instance that perhaps would be scarcely worth mentioning with reganl to the matter, but that it bore out the statement of the Courier of the \Jth July, that the employees were getting very strong, and would soon out-vote all the other interests of the colony. He alluded to an instance where a Minister of the Crown was thretttened to be kicked out next election if he did not send back a certain overseer. It was certain that a groat deal of impro]Jer use had been made of this power at the present time, and during the existence of the present J\fin­istry. In the hands of the present Min­istry it might be no danger to the couutry or State; hut, by-and-by, a very Yicions use might b0 made o£ it, and, in fad, it might be employed to tear clown the liber­ties of the colony. Some time ago a bridge contractor was called upon to go to the DmYns, gather up all the railway em1)loyees, and bring them clown to vote ; and for his expenses was told by the JVIinister to set down £100 as losses. The £100 might be found on the Estimates.

JVfr. P.u:>IER : This year. The ATTOR:"EY-GE:"ERAL: \Vherc? J\Ir. O'SuLLTVAN said it was some time

ago, not in the time of the present Attorney­General; it v,·as not since the Attorney­General had berome a politician. He (::\fr. O'Sullivan) knew the names and all about it, and an honourable member in the House knew all about it too. He simply men­tioned the circumstance to show what could be done \Yith this influence, and to prove that the colony would be more safe by having thPso men, as in other countries, dPpriYed of their vote. He would not now quote other authority to show that it could bo done without violating the Constitution, bnt, if any objections were raised he woulcl then proc1uee his authorities. At present he would leave the mtttter in the hands of the House.

The Pmn!IER said he dicl not know whether the motion would lead to any lengtll~'ncll clisrnssion, but he (the Premier) thought he might say a few words. The honourable member appeared to have been attracted to this subject by an article appearing in the Conrier of the 9th July, to which he referred. The article had r,'fer­ence to some previous articles in the S!Jdney J1£orninp Ilerald. Of course public opinion in this form very often directed their

932 Civil Servants [ASSEMBLY.] ancl Elections.

attention to subjects which might other­wise escape notice. He quite admittE'd that it -was a very important subject. a1H1 the honourable mE'mber ITas perfectly enti­tled to bring it under the notice of the Rouse and discuss it. He had some doubt whether it had arriYcd at that stage when it could be treated on its merits, in come­quence of any practical eYil arising out of it. The prospects of the future, as to a large proportion of persons in tl1is colony who were either now or woulcl hereafter be receiYing GoYernment pay, was ono of those matters which might attract the attention of Government; but he failed to see that any real practical evils had arisen out of the existing state of affairs to justify them in taking action such as that proposed. If the honourable mcmb0r seriously intended to carry his motion into effect, and in trod nee a Bill, the dfect of such a mrasure would he to disEranehise a large proportion of the people of this country. He did not know \Yhether the honourable member would be prepared -Eor that ; but if his opinions were to be bnchcl by legislation that must be the case. Yet he admitted he was perf<'ctly imlifferent as to the carrying of this resolntion. In a matter of such importanee as this the honourable member onght to have a very dccic1ecl con­viction. and not be indifferent; if, as he -would -have them to suppose, the malter was of such importance, he really should try more to assert its importance, and not ba indifl'ereut as to its being carrietl. In illustration of hiil remarks, and pass­ing from the abstract to the }Jractical, the honourable member spoke of a large number of Ci,-il ser.-ants who had i11timntecl to him that they would he very glad to be relie.-ed of their political rights. It was rather astonishing to hear that. He did not think the Ci,-il servants hacl been .-ery prominent politicians, but had ex<'reised their rights in a quiet unassuming >my, and he slwulcl be sorrv to see them de­frauded of their rights. 'I£ they forced their politics upon the country in any disngreeahle form, they would be subject to the rlisci­pline attaching to the servants of the Stato. For his mYn part he knew Yery little of the politics of the Ivswich elcctornte, but he admitted that the reJlresentations of the hon­ourable member might be correct, and that at some time or othEn' a certain nmount of pressm·e might have been 1wonght to bear on the workmen at the Go.-ernment shops at that place. At the same time he could hardly imagine that pressure had been brought to bear by any of the presl'nt l\I inis­ters. The honourable member alw stated that some Civil servants to whom he referred had told him that they were the personal :1nd political property of the GoYernment. He hardly saw how that could be, as every man who was enfran­chised was protected by the principle of

the ballot; and as that mode of voting was faithfully carried ont, it was impo> sib le that any man or body of men should be the personal and politieal property of l\1:iuisters. Every man could vole as he pleased; and he was surprised, therefore, to hear that a nu m l1er of men had expressed themsl'lves as being fon·rd to vote in any particulnr direction. The honoura blc gen­tleman hncl refPrred to the po~sibility oE thi.> ]Jrincivle, if now a.clopted, being still further extended and a11plied to all persons in tlJC Go.-ernmcnt en1ployment. In that case nav.-ics ancl all the men employed on tl1e roads must 1wc:essarilv be disfranchised. II e should he very so1;ry to see such a thing clone, as it woultl be a grave injustice to a. ;-cry large prO]JOrtion of the JlOpulation. The honourable member spoke about the country being one great Govern­ment workslwp. But if labour could be organized ancl associated in such a way as to afford profitable employment to a large number of 11eople, he dicl not think a better future roulcl await this colony. He was of opinion that the hononralJle member hacl giYen no proofs of any serious evils ha,-ing arisen under the 11rcsrnt system. If at any time a small amount of pressure had been brought to bear upon the work­men at Ipswieh in the employment of the Government, he did not thiuk the same thing could 1w affirmed at the present time. T!tev had also been told a bout a road­OYel:secr on YYhom pressure was brought to bear by the l\Tinisb·y. But it was far more probable that road-oYersecrs would bring pressure to b,'ar U]JOn tl1e l'lfinistry than that J\Tinistcrs were likely to bring pressure to bc'ar upon them. Ho did not think that these gcntlcnwn wonld willingly surrender their eleeloral rights. HP ad­mitted tbnt it would be a serions evil if a powerful burl'rmc·rary, firmly entrem·hecl in their pri,-ileges, had the means of making their power felt by the GoYern­mrnt for the time being; but there was no e.-idence of that being . the case at the present time. The CiYil serYtmts, when they chose to ex0rcisc the frm1chise, did so with perfect propriety and with­out ostentrttion. If any one of them became a notorious politieal agitator he would he subject to he pulled up and reprimandecl. \Yith regard to the argu­ment that the Civil sen-ice was making itself felt amongst honourable members in the -way of augmentation of salaries, that in­fluence was brought to bear through per­sonal agencies and priYate friends. It was possible that such an influence did exist; but it dicluot arise from the fact that they pos­sessed the franchise. but from the fact that they were personally known to many mem­bers of tlw J,egislature, and might malce use of their influence in wme eases to obtain increases of salary. But such cases were rare, ancl hacl not risen to the height

[o 8EPTE1IBEH.] and Elections. 933

of a pnblic eYil. The honourable gentle­man quoted from an artide in the '\!Jrlnc.IJ ~1fol'lt:ll!f He.·ald, in which the case of the U nitcd Stales was rderrccl to, and the bancfnl effects whiuh the ofl1cial sec­tion of the community excreiscd upon political e>~cnts there. But there was no eo m pari.wn bA>nwn the position of the ollieial bocly in lhe Fnit,~cl Slaks and in Qneemland. In the Unitod Stcttcs at cyer,y l'rcsidential clcdion the entire offici:cl body was changed, and that system hnd been procludi \'C of n·ry "''l'ious eYils, hceausc it compelled a Lugc· sedion of the community to agitate in the rause of clit'fcr­ent politi<·al leaclcrs, lend when they had c1Iectcd their object they had a natural claim to sh·ue in the plumlc•r. Our con­dition wa'<, he was happy to say, Ycry differ­ent, and t11erc seemed to l1im to be no signs that the Civil scniec n:ereise<l a politically had influeJH'C, 11]](1 that no suiiicicnt rca,on l1acl been shown for sneh 11 scrions chaJige in the cluuaeler of our present sysL\'lll as th," carrying of thi:; resolution woul!l inYolYe.

J\Ir. }L,cuossA.x said that the Premier, in clcpreea!ing the carrying of this motion, used the argriment that no practical e>ils had resulted in this eolony from the fact oE the Ci,-il SClTants rxert:isiug the fran­chise. He m1s quite willing to admit that no great prac'ical eYils had hitherto re­sulted from that cause ; bnt it was their duty, as legislators, to look beyond the present, ancl sec whclher in the• future of the colony pnwlie0l c·Yils might not arise from Ci Yil scrnmts excrcisi ng the fr:mchise in combination to died certain results. One reason why no )Jl\lCtical c·>ils lwd yet resulted >Yas m.-ing to the £a et that, aJthough CiYil servants were proporliom1lcly a Tc>ry large element in the Yoting rmn·r of tl10 colony, yet thPy wore so much scaitncd that they had not h<cn able to use the po•.n•rs they }JOsscssecl by combination. Ancl here he might say that he clisdaimed altogether any intention of tu king the fran­chi'e from the ]Wl'RO\JS \Yho wen•. only tcm­porarih" employed by tl1e Gon·mnwnl. But the1·c •n·rc oyer i3,UOO JlCr.,ons in the per­mam·nt employnwnt of the Gon•rnment, out of n total aclult \Yhite male jlopulation of .t:},OOD. That >ra,; certainly a •·cry large prO]Jorlion, alHl if they could JYls·ibl,r eom­bine they would be a blc to cfieet very serious results. Thu number of CiYil ser­>ants >Yas abont to be largely increased by the colony entering npc;n raihn1y-making on a larg•l scale. :Each of those line's would necessitate the employment of nenrly as many more as were at vreseut employed on tl10 Southern and \ \~ estn·n l1ailmty, aml would also necessitate the erer·tio1~ of Gon•rnment >York,hops at t'ac·h terminu~, with tl1:ir ('omplement of YYork­lllCll. 1~n;ryono >Yho lmc>Y anythi11::; about tl1e concli!iun of lj1S>Yich, must know that the Ci>il senicc thc·re had a prc11oncler-

ating influence; Roc;khampton would soon he in the s<tmo condition; ancl when the new lines we're made the same evil would make itself felt at :Thi[aryhorough, Bnn­dn.berg, ancl 'l'o>YnsYillc. It was a known Fact that the Government employees at Ipswich had fonncl themsc]ycs so strong that thi'y had threatened ~Ministers that if llll'y clid not do certain things they would see that they were not returned at tho next election. ';Vhen that had taken pb r' in one electorate, it was time that they lc•okccl fonmrd, in order to preYent the possilJility of .mch a thing occurring when the railway system of the colony was much more exten­sive than it was at present. There were other electorates in which CiYil senants hacl far too mncll influence, hut he would not name them as they were known to most honouralJle nwmbl'rs. To n certain extent there was 110 comparison bct..-ecn the Fniil'cl States and Queensland in this matter; hut if thl'Y com1mred the number of Civil senaut~ ,,-ho went onto£ oil]ce at each Presiclcntial election >Yith the total population, and the number of the Civil ser­Yants of tLis colony with the total popula­tion, it would be found tluttour Ci 1·il sornmts '\\~ern ten times as numerous in 11roportion to the ]JOpulntion. The American Go>ern­mcnt did not go iu for making railways, nor did it exercise scyeral of the functions '1\~hich '\\~ere exercised in the colonies. I£ our Ci 1·il sernmts clicl not change with each chaugc of ]}![iuislry, it was certain thrrt they exercisecl su1licicnt influence on l\Iinistcrs to share in the plunder, as the Prcmi,·r had 11hrased it. They brought influence to bear on members of Parlia­ment, nml on .1\linistcrs especially ; and he bclieyecl that if the Estimates at pre,ent before the House could be thoroughly examincrl it would be found that every one of the increases of salary had been put dmYn through influence cxereis2d by CiYil scnants, and not bPcausc of the justice of the dnims of those gentlemen. J_,ooking at the matter in that light, it was time they at least guanlecl themselves from the cYils that ,,-ere likely to arise. Ho did not see thrrt any f:(reat harm eould result to Civil ~cnnnts from being dq1riYcd of the elec­toral frnnchi.oc. X o man need enter the CiYil sPn-iee unless he chose; ancl if they '\\·ere deprived of the electoral franchise, nncl Yoluntari!y took scrYicc under the Government, t.hcy would h:we nothing to complain of. By our Constitution, whieh '\\~as derin·d from the British Constitution, the electoral franehisc >Yas a privilege conferred by Parliament, and not n right; and the same }lOYWr that ga>e that pri>ill'gc eould, for good reasons, take it >nYay without i11fringing upon the rights of any single imliYiclual. It was the duty of the House to look forwanl to the time v>lwn a serious clanger might ari;;e from this cause, and to han a remedy proYided

934 Civil Servants [ASSEl\I[BLY.] and Elections.

beforehand. If the honourable member for Burke chose to go to a division, he should vote for the resolution.

J\fr. PETTIGREW saicl he thoroughly agreed with enry word that had fallen from the last speaker. The Premier had treated this question from an abstract point of view, and would not allow his great mind to descend to what they saw before them every clay. A member of Parlia­ment said to him some time ago, that a measure of this nature would be ono of the best that could be earriccl in the House; but, he aclclc·cl, "vYho shall take the bull by the horns? You cannot do it, a]l(l I cannot." It was a 11ity that honourn ble rncm bcrs should be afraid of doing their duty because they 'vould be opposed at the next election. From his own experience he could endorse all that had been said by the honourablo mem­ber for Burlco ; and of late>, things had been gcttiDg worse instead of hcttC'l'. It was the political influence that was being brought to hear upon the Government for billets that was so objectionable ; and if this resolution was carried the objection­able system would be ended. If the Pre­mier had only read last Tuesday's Ipsu·icl< Observer, he would havo noticed tlmt a meeting took phwe at Ips"ieh last 1::\atunhy night-a very entertaining ban<1uot for nav­vies ancl others. There was an overseer present who had been removed for bad lan­guage to ofiicials above him, and according to the n'j)Ort, this person said in confident terms, that although he 'vas separated from them at present, he was looking forward to the time when they should be togPther again. Here there was the advent of !he Opposition proclaimed by a pcrwn who had been removed from his office. Further down, in grandiloquent strains there was a proposition that the gangers should occupy a different position from that they were occupying. They were virtually to form themselves into a power by "-hich they could dictate to the Ministry. In England even the dockyard labourers were not entitled to vote; and as in Queensland they followed the English Constitution, without accepting the American fashion, there could be no great har<lship to Civil servants if they were forbidden to vote; on the contrary, he believed it would he most advantageous to many hard­workiDg, imlustrious men that thPy Rhould not he pestered at election times. As had been mentioned by the honourable member for Burke, thPre were always plenty of spies about, who were only too ready, not only to report, but to mi~report to the Min­ister what was going on. These evils were incn'asing instead of diminishing, aml would continue to increase so long as the Govcmment was the greatest employer of labour in the colony. Ho notit·r·<l the painful position in whieh the Premier was

placed last nigl1t, when the honourable mem her for VIr arrego was extracting infor­mation from him >vith respect to a promise he "-as SU]Jj)Osecl to ha,·c made to J\l[r. Shericlan. He (JI.fr. I'ettigrew) did not believe the motion would he carried, hut it "-ould 1c easier to carry it now than at any other time. For himself, it WOLlld make no difference, for all his constit u­en!s 'n•rc respectable fnrmns, who would, no doubt, sympathize with him in his e:ITorts to cleanse the Augean stal>le of the Civil service.

Jllfr. BuzACOTT said that at flrst, when the honourn blc memlJer shmn•cl him his reso­lution, he thought he could at once give him his hearty support; hut having since further considered the matter, he felt that it was a question requiring a good deal of comideralion. He tlicl not believe the influence exercised by Civil servants was so serious as some people apprchPnded. Probably at IpS>Yich, and in tllt' metropolis, a great deal of influence was exercised by them; aml Civil sernmts were for the most part men of education and position, \Yho not only them~elves voted for the eancliclates who they supposed were particularly favoura blo to tl1cir interests, but exerted gt·eat influence upon their friemls ; aud he rcgrcUctl to hear and believe tlwt improper iniluence had been bl'Ought to bear upon at least one member of the present Govern­mPllt.

The Pmmn:n : K amc ? Jl.fr. BFZACOTT was not afraid to say that

the J\finister was the l\finister for \\.orb. He had heard repeatedly that improper influence had been brought to bear upon that gentleman; but if it was so it "~as only an evidence that he was thought to be a Minister particularly su~ceptihlo to such influence,. No honourable member who took a proper view of his responsibilities would allow anything that either Civil ser­vants or any st·dion of his constituents would say, to lead him astray from 11·hat he deemed to be an honourable course. So far as his own electorate was conccrnccl, he could say that altlwngh he had a consider­able nun1ber of his constituents in Govern­ment employment, no improper influence had been attempted upon himself; and although he came out in avowed opposition to the Governnwnt, he was quite certain he mu:;t have got the largest number of voles from persons in the Civil service. He did not, therefore, thi11k it follmwcl, that because men were in the employment of the Gov­ernment of the clay they 'vere likely to give their votes only to Government ca11didates. If Civil servants exercised the influPncethat ha cl bc•en clescrihccl, it must be rcn1C'mbcred that it 'Youlcl he exercised as often for the Opposition as the Governmcnt-be­c;mse UiYil sernm!s, if !hey thought the Jl.linistry "ere not ]Jar!icularly fa \'Oltl'­

ablc to !heir in!ere:;t:;, would do all

Civil Seroants [6 SEPTE}fllEil.] and Elections. 935

they could to oust them. He believed that the cry heard from all parts of the colony for extravagant expenditure in pub­lic works had been stimulated to a con­siderable extent by persons who expected to participate in the advantage of that expen­diture. At the same time it was not only the people who were dirretly Pmployed in the Government service who made this cry. There were, in addition, storekeepers and everybody who expected to derive an ad van• tage requiring that this extravagant expen­diture should be carried out. It might be said that this argument applied to both sides ; but there were many comidrrations upon a question of this kind. He was not at all sorry that the honourable gentleman had brought forward this question, enn in the form of an ab~tract resolution, and if next session Government could make up their minds to bring in a good Civil Ser­vant's Bill, and in the meantime give their serious consideration to this question of the proposed disfranchisement of persons in Government employment, the House would then be in a much better condition to consider the question dispnssionat<'ly than at the present time. The motion had undoubtedly taken a nnm ber of peOj)lc by surprise, and they could not come to any settlement upon it this evening. 'l'he honourable member for Kcnnecly said that the suffrage was a priYilege coiJferred upon the CiYil servants, and that if the House thought fit to take a>my that pri;-i­lege, Ci,-il servants would ha;-e no reason to complain, But seeing that Civil senants accepted office on the understa.ncling thnt they should enjoy the franc hi se, he did not see how it could be taken away from the present holders, unless it could be shown that their exercise of the franchise was prejudicial to the public interest. This had not been shown. No doubt e>ils some­times arose; but as Ci>il servants were mPn of education and intelligence he did not believe their influence was all for eYil, and any attempt to deprive them of their franchise should only be done after mature and careful consideration. If the police were disfranchised, it was a question whether the principle should not be ex­tended; although it was evident there WPre special reasons why the }!Olice should not be engaged in the strife and turmoil of a contested election. He was not, however, prepared to say they might not go further, and include other branches of the Ci,-il serviec, especially those who were at pre­sent supposecl to exert an improper infiu­ence. vYhether men who were carrying out Govemment works should not be excluded-men who had a direct infiuence upon the expenditure of large sums of money-was an important consideration. Still this question was hedged about with many cliffieulties; and although on the whole he had concluded to giye his support

to the motion, it was on the distinct under­standing that if, after reflection, he could see that the idea could not be fairly carried out, he should reserve the right to Yote against it, when the attempt was made to giYe practical effect to it.

The Cor,oNIAL TREASURER said thnt the honourable member for Stanlcy had spoken of him as representative of lt district which numbered the largest amount of Ci,-il ser­vants. "\Vhether that >Yas so or not, he would take this O]!portunity of entering his ]Jrotest against a resolution which narrowed down the franchise to a certain extent. He did not admit the principle that by depriv­ing the Civil senant of his franchise tllPy made him a better officer or citi7-en, for that which tended to lower a man in his self-respect and solf-cstPem was calculated to make him a less worthy citizen than he was before. :From that point of view he (Mr. Dickson)maintainecl there was nothing in the social or political position of this colony which should induce the House to accede to a resolution which would depri,·e the Civil servants of those privileges whieh, in common with other members of the com­munity, they had a thorongh right to enjoy. He did not make those remarks because he represented a eonstilucncy which was said to contain a large numl>er of CiYil servants, but as the result of thought, obscnation, and conviction, and after a considerable, amount of reading on the subject. Before he sat down he should be able to show, from the writing of an aclmowleclged authority, Sir Erskine May, that the ;-icw he now adYancecl was one that politieal writers admitted was based on the sounclcst principles, and that a measure based on the motion before the House would be a measure of rctrogreRsive tendency. He would, hovrever, first point out that if they deprived Ci,-il scnants as a class of the power of using the franchise, it could not be SU]!posed they would remain without some other channel of political influence. If they could not exer­cise the franchise, and, enjoy their poli­tic<el rights in the usual way, it would be fo11ncl that other means would be obtained whereby they could command the influence which they ought to possess in the State, and that the means they would adopt to exercise that political right would be possibly much more improperly directed and abused than had been the case np to the 1wescnt time. There \Yere strong reasons, as everyone knew, why the police should be d<'prived of the franchise; and the army at home, as a constitutional safeguard, were especially exempted from it. It was not right that a large number of men mncnn ble to the di~cipline and direction enforced by martial la>Y should be permitted the pri;-ilegcs of the franchis0. In the middle of last century, when reform was attracting the attention of the llcu:-sc

936 Civil 8c1•vants [ASSEMBLY.] and Elections.

of Commons, it was found that the revenue officers in Gre~tt Britain had a very pre­ponclerating amount of right of franchise nsted in them; and in the year 1768 J\Ir. Dowdcswoll introduced a Bill into the House of Commons to disqualify the reYenue officers, who hr,cl such power in the State that ll,i500 of them were said to be electors. This very large holding of the fmnchisc lJy such a number of Civil ofticers was much more formidable than even those num bcrs would indicate ; for 1>hile at Bath the right of election was confined only to the mayor, ten aldermen, and twenty-four common coun­cilmcn, and at Salisbur~· to the mayor and corpomtion, consisting of fifty-six persons- Leeds, Birmingham, ~Ianches­ter, an'd other largo centres of popula­tion were totally unrepresented. It was deemed that this undue preponderance of the electoral right held by revenue o£ncers should be controlled, and it was a condition of things chw, in a great mea,urc, to the rcstridivcucss of the franchise of that period. There could be no doubt that had the franchise been more extended sueh as it had since become, ihcre would have been no necessity for the legis­lation which subsequently took place. The extract from Erskinc May's Constitutional History, to which he had rcfcrreLl, >ms particularly instructi.-c, and bore upon the present resolution. It was follows:-

"In l 768, lUr. Dowdeswell lmd in vain endeavoured to insert a claueo in Alderman Beckford's Bribery Bill for the disc1ualifictttion of revenue officers.

"In 1770 he proposed a Bill to dis<rtmlify these officers from yoting at elections, and was supported by Mr. Gre1n-illc. It was urged, however, that they were already prohibited from interfering at elections, though not from Yoting ; and that no further rcstmint could reasonably be required. But, in truth, the Ministry of Lord N ort.h ·were little disposed to surrender so important a source of ii1ilucnce, and the Bill ,,-as accordingly rejected.

"The llleasure, ho\.Ycvcr, \V-as Jne1·ely post­poned for a time. The dangerous policy of the Comt, under Lord Korth-and its struggle to rn1c 1\r lJl\.:rognt.i\'e and influcncc-conYincccl all libcml statesmen of the necessity of pro­tecting public liberty by more ef[cclual snfc­guards. l\Ieanwhile, the di,astrous American war further aggravated the evils of taxes and tax-collectors.

"In 1780, a Bill to disqunlify revenue offi­cers was proposc,1 by llfr. Crewe; and thongh rejected on tl•e second reading, it met with much mo1•e support iha1l l\Ir. Dowdcswell's previous measure. It ''as ag·tin brought for­ward in 1781, with less success than in the previous year. Butt he time 'vas now at hand when n determined as,,ault ,,-as contemplated upon the influence of tlw Crmn1; aucl in 1782 the disqualification of re.-enuc officers-which had hitherto been an Opposition mca,ure-w·as proposed by the l\Iinistry of Lore! Rockhing­ham. Its imperative necessity was pro>ecl by

Lord Rockhingham himself, who stated that seventy elections chiefly depended on the votes of these officers; and that 11,500 officers of customs ancl excise were electors. In one borough, he saicl, that 120 out of the 500 voters had obtained revenue appointments through the influence of a single person.

"This necessary 1neasure wa.s now carried through both Houses by large majorities, though not without remonstrances a"ainst its principle, especially from Lm·cl Mansfleld. It is not to be denied that tlw disqualification of any class of men is, abstractedly, opposed to liberty, and an illiberal principle of legislution ; but hero W>LS a gross constitutional abuse rc<1niring correction; and though many voters ,,-ere c~ep1·iyed of the rights of citizenship, these r1ghts could not be freely exercised and were sacrificed in orcler to prot~ct the general liberties of the people. Had there been a franchi'e so extensive as to leave the general body of electors free to vote, without being OYorbome bj the servants of the Crown, it would haYc been difficult to justify the policy of disfranchisement.

" 2. This principle has since been recognized by the Legislature ; 'j_ncl in 1868 the repeal of this disqualification accompanied the extended franchises of that time-31 and 32 Vict., c. 73, 192; Hans. Deb, 3rcl ser., 1,352, &c."

He thought this quotation was a sufficient ans~Ver to the resolution. The House was being asked to adopt a retrogressiYe policy. The House of Commons had removed the disqualifications which had applied to the revenue. officers.; and with the grmYing populatwn of th1s colony there was not the slightest .reason for apprehending that either now or m the future the Civil servants would ever obtain an undue share of control o.-er political representation. Un­less it could be shown that there was a danger of this being the case, he maintained that to force them to give up their poli­tical privileges was opposed to the progress of the country itself.

~1:r. PAL:IIER said if the honourable mem­ber for Burke hacl desired an advocate he could not have found a better one than the Colonial Trea\m'cr. He did not believe that the most ardent supporter of the resolu­tion coula have made a speech more in favour of its principle than the Colonial Treasurer had done. The very extracts he hacl road, although they ·were rather ancient, went to prove that where there were any large number of parties in the employ­ment of the Government, they could exer­cise a mrtterial influence upon the elections, and ought to be disfranchised. That was exactly what the resolution affirmed. To show the propriety of the soldiers in the British army not Leing allowed the fran­chise, the Colonial Treasurer gave as a reason that they were under the operation of martial law. He failed to see how the Colonial Treasurer connected the reason with the disfranchisement. The reason be (JYir. Palmer) sliould have given wa:;, that

Civil Servants [6 SEPTEMBER.] and Elections. 937

so large a body of men would probably have great influence upon elections. And comparing small things \\~ith great, com­paring this colony with Great Britain, he would ask whether it did not come to exactly the same thi11g here? There was no doubt whatever that >VC had at the present time a large body of men in the employ­ment of the Government, and receiving Government pay, and that they exercised material influence upon the elections in many places-in Brisbane and Ipswich most decidedly-and in other places also, but not to the same degree. As had been pointed out by previous speakers, when the wonderful bunkum rail>Yays of the Govern­ment went on, this influence >Yould extend to five or six different parts of the colony. Of course, honourable members wore aware that the Colonial 'Ireasurer \\~as bound to make a speech agaiJJst the resolution, because he was well a>Yare that his electo­rate contained a large number of Ci-vil sen-ants, and he did not dare to make any other speech. He (J\1:r. Palmer) wondered that he did not butter the Civil servants a little more than he had done. He regretted that the honourable member for Burke should have reason to bo disheartened at having to introduce his motion to a thin HousP, but that could not be helped; and he hoped the motion would be pressed to a division. X o doubt a great deal might be said on both sides of the question; but the more that was said the more it would be found that the pre­ponderating evidence was on the side of the resolution. Ho did not come fresh to this subject, for he had considered it for years. He had sPen the gradual influence which the workmen in the employment of the Government had been exercising upon the elections. It had been exercised sometimes one way and sometimes another ; and he had reason to believe that it was as often against the Government as in favour of them. He believed that if the Secretary for Lands were in Opposition he would have reversed his arguments; but bcinginofficehethought he had the whiphand, and would be able to keep the Government employees in hand; but he would tell him from his own experi­ence that he would not succeed,-for "vVhPn you once grant a man's request you make one ingrate and ten enemies." The Secretary for Lands, he repeated, supposed that because he \\~as in ofllee he would be able to keep the employees of the Government on his siclc; but the proba­bilities were that the result \\"oulcl be quite the other way. He had thought on this subject for years, and had never seen any reason why policemen, police magistrates, and clerks of the bench should be deprived of the franchi~e, and the whole of the Civil service not placed in the same category. He could see no distinction. If there was one, it was one without a difference, He

1877-3 N

had long been of opinion that it would be most desirable that no person receiving pay from the Government-excepting Min­isters of the Crown, who stood in a different position, because they were subject to removal at any moment-should exercise the right of the franchise. He did not think, if that right were taken away, that many would think it a great depri­vation. So far as his experience went, comparatively few of the educated classes of the Civil servants used the right. The arguments of the honourable member for Rockhampton struck him as applicable very much more to the educated classes than to the rank and file of the service, so to speak. The workmen who received Government pay were really the par­ties who were most likely to exercise their power in elections ; but, however desirable it might be to allow the educated classes of the service the right to vote, it was impossible, if the House •made up its mind to accept the principle, to make any distinction between them, and they would have to fare w1th the rest. He did not believe that the Civil sen-ants would suffer much by having the franchise taken from them; but as a matter of course they had their option of leaving the service or retain­ing the right to vote as they liked ; and if this option were given, the choice would be rapidly made, and entirely on one side, he believed. He differed from the statement that hitherto the action of the employees of the Government had had little effect upon the elections. He believed that in Brisbane and Ipswich they had had material influence upon the elections, and that there was one gentleman on the Treasury benches who was remarkably well aware of the fact. They had, however, to look more to what might happen >Yith our manhood suf­frage-to what would be the result if the Government employees went on either side; they could carry the election in any way they liked, and they knew it, an~ ~ad used their power already upon the Mm1ster for vVorks. It looked very like it when they found that, without any Executive minute, that honourable gentleman had taken upon himself to reduce the hours of labour on the railway. He (Mr. Palmer) said that this was clone owing to pressure which was brought to bear by certain parties in his electorate, and to a fear that he would be ousted at the next election if he did not comply; by that step he had materially increased the cost of maintenance of the railway. He had no doubt that the Minister for vV orks was not now very confident at removing his under over­seer for works. He did not know why he should not remove his under­overseer; but there must be something rotten in the State of Denmark >Yhcn, at a public dinner, something approaching threats came to he held out with regard to

938 [ASSE1\1BLY.J and Elertio11s.

that officer's rcnmval. He would like hon­ourable members to look back upon what had gone on for years in that House. Had they ever seen an honourable member representing a constituency where thPre were a number of persons in the employ­ment of the Government voting ngainst increases or extravagant expenditure P He eoulcl not rccollC'ct a solitary instance where such members had not gone in for all the plunder they could get for their own districts ; and he would ask honour­able members to try to remember a single instance. That in itself shon~ed that the Civil servants had a n~aterial influence upon the elections. He maint,incd that tltis was improper influence, and that the House should calculate what it might amount to "IVhen public works became more extended than now. He believed the resolutions n·ere ealculated to do an immense amount of good, and he aho thoroughly b~lieved the honourable mover when he said that he had heard that the employees of the Government would far rather be without the franchise. Honour­able members knew Yery well that if Ministers did not interfere with them­some would ancl others would not-their underlings and gangers won lcl interfere, in ordC'r to get inflnenC'e with the Minis­ters, and attempt to bring pressure to bear upon the employeC's in the time of elections. It was all very well to say that the ballot preYentcd this; but they all knPw that any gootl elC'ctioncering ngcnt could tell within a vote or two how parties had voted. There was uo better electioneering agent in the colony than the Minister for vVorks-no one more up to electioneering dodges; and he was quite sure that he knew long before the result of the ballot-box was declare cl how the Yotes had gone. No valid reason had been advanced that the francl1ise should be retained by the Civil servants. There was no analogy whatever to be drawn in that respect between the circumstances of this colony and Great Britain; the British Government did not make railways, and they had not an enor­mous number of higher servants in their employment. Honourable members had not to go to the antiquated ideas of 1770, but to look at the present state of affairs, and at the results which had arisen in the past, and the much greater results that would arise in the future, if Civil serYants were allowed to bring influence to bear upon contested elections.

The MINISTER FOR vVoRKS said he rould not endorse the observations of the honour­able member for Port Curtis, and he might tell him from his experience of the Civil ser­vants in di:fferC'nt parts of the colony, and also in the neighbouring colony, that they could not be got to go together-that one half went one way and one half the other. He maintained that they had as much right to thr

franchise as other citizens had. He had never had prrssuTe brought to bear upon him; and during the eleYen years that he had held a seat lte had never vet intimi­dated anyone or had ask eel a Ci ;il senant for his vote, notwithstanding that he was able on one occasion to tell the honourable member for Burke, within four votes, how a contested election for \Vest 11oretou would go.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: vVithin one, I LelieYe. The 1\frNISTER FOR \VoRKs said he would

remind honourable members that he had had no opposition in the electorate which he repre,ented. He knew nothing about the road overseer referred to by the hon­ourable member, further than thnt he was removed for departmental reasons, and he was now in Brisbane. He had not bPen threatened by any over~eer, and had reecivcd the first intimation of a threat having been held out that eYening. \Vhen that overseer would he returned to Ipswich he could not tell, but he presumed that he would get back when the honourable mem­ber for Port Curtis became Premier.

Mr. EnMER: I clo not even know his name.

The NIINISTER FOR \YoRKS saicl that with respect to the reduction of the hours of labour on the railway he considered that eight hours was quite sufficient for a day's work, and that the men would do more work th[m if they had to slave for nine hours. The honourable member's objection came with bad grace, for, if he remem­bered rightly, he once attempted to pass an Eight Honrs' Bill.

Mr. P.u3IER : I did nothing of the sort. The J\'IINISTER FOR WORKS said that at

any rate the honourable member took charge of it in the absence of the honour­able membL·r for Rockhampton, in whose hands it was. He (Mr. Thorn) suvported that Bill; he was determined that the hon­ourable member for Port Curtis should not trump him. He l1ad considered the matter of the resolution in all its bearings, an cl he repeated that the Civil servants had as much right to the franchi~e as the other membc'rs of the comnnmity. There was no doubt that if they were deprivcil of the franchise the representation of ihe coast districts would btl altered, ancl h tt fiye or six electorates on the coast would be knocked on the head. That was one reason why he "\Vas in favour of the Civil servants having the right to votP. He hoped that the motion would not be carried. He did not believe that its principle was in opera­tion in any part of the world-he did not know "IVhere. Something had been said about dockyard labourers. The only coun­try where tlwy exercised any power was in England, where they did go togdher a little more than in any other part of the world, He should certainly vote against

Ciz,il Servants [6 SEPTE~ITIER.] and Elections. 939

the motion; and he hopecl the day would never come to pass Vlhen Civil servants would be disfranchised.

]}fr. ]}fciLWI!AITH said, with reference to the accusation made by the Minister for \Vorks against the honourable member for Port Cnrtis, that he had once taken charge of an Eight Hours Bill, he maintained that it had no bearing upon the question under discussion ; and he would remind the hon­ourable member further, that it vras not a Bill to give a day's pay for eight hours labour. The reduction of the hours of labour on the railV~ay was a different matter altogether; pressure VIas brought to bear, and it was managed to squeeze out of the Government the original pay for the eight hours' work. There was a difference of opinion between the Minister for \V orks and some of his best officers, as to the effi­ciency of the eight hours system. ]}fr. Stan­ley, the Engineer-in-Chief, had lately given evidence that there was a very perreptiblc difference in the amount of VIOrk that was performed by the repairs men on the rail­way since the system had been adopted, and the cost of maintenance had been pro­portionately increased. He was perfectly satisfied that the establishment of tho system was a clear case which showed the necessity of this resolution. He would also remind honourable members that it VIas a principle of our Constitution that no man who had a pecuniary interest in the legislation which came before him was entitled to hold a seat in the Legislature or vote upon the question. The same principle applied to the Civil servants, who all depended on the State for their living, and were not, therefore, entitled to take a part in legislation. Civil servants voted at home; but there the suffrage be­ing based on a property qualification, the evil was not likely to be so great. But there, even, certain elections in dockyard toVIns had been a scandal for years. The workmen combined, and sent in, sometimes a Tory, sometimes a Radical candidate, bnt were always guided in their choice by their own benefit. o,ing to the limitation of the feanchisP, the labourL'l'S employed by Government at home were not entitled to vote. The Premier denied that any evils had resulted from the system in force here ; but if he was not a reprcsenta­ti ve of the Civil servants himself, he was of the men who desired to benefit by State expenditure. At all meetings got up in his constituency the principal movers were Government contractors, and they seemed to rule that part of the colony. The honourable gentleman ought. to be thoroughly cognizant of this fact hirnse If. He (Mr. l\!Ici!wraith) would vote for the resolution on the principle he had enunci­ated.

Mr. HorKrNGS said that the question under consideration wn~ of great and inrrra~ing

importance. In the old country, atten­tion had been called to the growing influence of the Civil serYice, and it had been pointed out that the peril would be increased when the Government took over the telegraph department. There was no doubt that a great influence could be exercised on the politics of the country by the Civil servants, and, being intelligent men, it was likely that they would exert it, and that it would increase. vYhenever such an influence was ahyays used in one direction, and for the ad vantage of those exercising it, the result could not be advantageous to the com­munity. It behoved the House, therefore, to watch caref}llly for any indication of influence being used in this manner. At present, however, this was not done-the Civil servants did not combine. On abstract grounds there was no reason Vlhy a person accepting State employment should sacrifice his rights as a private citizen. He was still liable to taxation, and should have his share of control over expenditure. It was only in the event of that right being exer­cised in a manner injurious to the State that the House would be justified in taking it away. The Civil st•rvants were not all opposed to its being taken away, according to information he had received from one of long standing and high position. Still, he was not sure that sutl:icient reason existed for the charge at present, and would vote against the resolution; but if any cause arose in the future he would be indined to adopt the course now proposed.

Mr. GumEs said that he had been at first inclined to SU}Jport the resolution, on the principle that those directly interested in the votes of the House shoUld not take any share in influencing legislation; but when he came to look at the extent to which this principle might be carried, he altered his opinion. People in this colony, some time ago, interested in obtaining certain relief sought by selectors, combined to send in representatives who supported tueir views. Pastoral lessees o£ the Crown notoriou~ly combined to send represent­atives, and sat in the HousB to make laws affecting their personal interests. Miners might also b! said to come under the application of the same principle, for they might combine to obtain better terms for themselves in mining on Crown lands. He was, therefore, not disposed to adopt the principle in its integrity, and should, there­fore, not vote for the motion. No doubt, use had been made of the Civil service for political purposes. The honourable mem­ber for I'ort Curtis had stated that he was perfectly eertain that Civil servants could not be rontrolled by a Minister. He cer­tainly ought to have known something o£ the matter, and his statement should be accepted. No doubt the wider the Civil serYice was extended, the wider its influ­ence would be also, But, the bttllot, pro.

940 Civil Servants [ASSEMBLY.] and Elections.

perly carried out, would cure the evils referred to; and when Civil servants had been educated to a proper view of their responsibilities, they would disappear. They hacl a direct interest in the welfare of the colony, for if it went to the clogs their salaries would go too; ancl it was too much to ask that a body so directly inte­rested in the welfare of the colony, should be deprived of their right to elect repre­sentatives in Parliament.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN clid not think his posi­tion was touched, but he had never ex­pected that the Ministers of the dny would weaken their position by voting for his resolutions. Still, they should remem­ber that what was their strength to-clay might be their weakness to-morrow. The Premier saicl that no e·dl hacl occurred under the present system ; but if even this was correct, the increase in the amount of public works would increase the danger oE evil, and it was in anticipation of this he brought forward his resolution; and there would be no better time for a settle­ment of the question than now. But he denied the Premier's assertion. \Vas it not true that the only qualification now required of a railway contractor was that he should be a goocl electioneering agent P And if a gentleman of that kind was so clever that he could incur the expenditure of thousands without a shilling, he might contract for the supply of sixte~n or seven­teen members of Parliament in a similar manner. He wondered that the J\finister for \V orks hacl the hardihood to say, in his presence, that he had not been subject to pressure by Government employees. \Vas it not a fact that he would not have been re-elected for Ipswich if he ha cl not pro­mised to make the time of the Government labourers eight hours at the same pay as before P He could state this, because he (Mr. O'Sullivan) was one of the agents who exacted the promise.

The MINISTER FOR WoRKs: I deny it. Mr. O'SuLLIVAN maintained that his

assertion was correct. He would state also, ancl the honourable member for Stanley could bear him out, that the condition laid down by the Civil servants for Mr. M:acal­ister' s election on one occasion was the dis­missal of Mr. Lowe. He made the promise, but he broke it.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that he remembered no such promise being given by Mr. Macal­ister. There was such a rumour however.

The MINISrER FOR WORKS said that he did not give the promise, as stated by the honourable member.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN said the honourable gen­tleman held out a long time ; he was well­intentioned and only yielded to corruption; but he (Mr. O'Sullivan) went to him as the working men's agent, ancl told him that he would be turned out if he did not give

the pledge. He (Mr. O'Sullivan) was not in politics at the time himself. It hacl been argued that Civil servants should be allowed to vote because they were edu­cated ; but he would ask if they were all better eclucatecl than police magistrates or clerks of petty sessions P He maintained his resolutions on the principle that no man hacl a right to be a judge in his own cause ancl to vote his own money. The honour­able the Treasurer, when speaking, had evidently been addressing his constituents ; but he (Mr. O'Sullivan) thanked him for his speech, which was a strong argu­ment on his side. The Premier expressed a doubt that he (Mr. O'Sullivan) had been authorized by the Civil servants to bring this resolution forward ; but he could assure him that two-thirds of those in his district were in favour of it. He himself would no doubt lose a gre1tt deal of support if the principle he advocated was carried into effect ; but that never affected his actions in that House. He was entirely disinterested in the matter, and brought forward the resolution on principle.

J\fr. WALSH said the honourable member for Burke had made out a serious case against the Minister for Works and against tlie electorate of Ipswich; but there was no sufficient reason shown for disenfran­chising the whole of the Civil senants. He believed that a more corrupt electorate dicl not exist than that governed by the Minister for Works. In England certain electorates, in consequence of corruption, had been deprived of the privilege of returning members to Parliament, and the House had to-night heard enough to justify them in saying thttt the Civil servants in the electorate of Ipswich should be pre­vented from taking part in any future election. The time had arriYed when the Premier of the colony should ])revent such a stigma being cast upon his Government as that contained in the evidence brought forward by the mover of the resolution with regard to the Civil servants in the railway department at Ipswich. He would suggest, therefore, that instead of carrying the resolution, it should be applied only to the localities against which the arguments of the mover hacl so strongly applied.

The House clividecl :­

AYES, 12.

Messrs. O'Sullivan, Walsh, Palmer, J. Scott, Pettigrew, Mcilwraith, Morgan, Ivory, Fraser, Perkins, Buzacott, and 1faerossan.

NOES, 16. Messrs. Douglas, G. Thorn, Griffith, Low,

Dickson, McLean, Ringsford, Stewart, Foote, Hockings, J. Thorn, Beattie, Beor, Miles, Grimes, and Tyre!.

Question, therefore, resolved in the negative.

Pate to Mrs. Jaap. [6 SEPTEMBER. J Vote to Mrs. Jaap. 941

ADJOURNMENT. 1\fr. THORN rose to put himself right with

regard to a statement made by the honoura­ble member for Burke, who, probably not intentionally, had stated what was not correct when he said that at the time he accepted office as Minister for vV orks and Premier he made a pledge in favour of the eight-hours movement. He had since re­ferred to the Q1wwsland Times, published at the time, in which it appeared that when he was asked by the president of the eight­hours' league if he would support the move­ment, he said he could not give a distinct promise with regard to it. This report referred to the day before the election, and was clear proof that he gave no pledge. Afterwards, when the engineer of the rail­ways said it would not interfere with the working expenses along the line, he conceded the favour to the men, seeing that other workmen enjoyed the same privilege.

JVIr. O'SuLLIVAN said that, notwithstand­ing what appeared in the Queensland Tin~es, there was a ]Jrivate understanding that as soon as the election was over the eight­hours movement would be granted.

Mr. BEATTIE protested against these per­sonal explanations being made on a private night. The object almost seemed to be to prevent him from bringing on his resolution with regard to the Bulimba railway. Such explanations should be made on a Govern­ment night.

JVIr. PETTIGREW said that, as the eight­hours movement was on the cards, he might state that the honourable member for JVIar­anoa agreed to grant that movement when the Brisbane and Ipswich railway was completed.

Mr. W.nsrr would take advantage of the motion for adjournment to call the attention of the House to a semi-official announcement, which appeared in a morn­ing paper, to the following effect :-

" A mistake occurs in our Parliamentary report of yesterday, which we desire to correct. Mr. Dickson is reported to have said, in allusion to the salary of the landing sur­veyor, at Lytton, that he assumed the responsi­bility of not giving the increase, as it had not been recommended by the head of the depart­ment. What the Treasurer did say was, that the head of the department had recommended that gentleman as well as many others for in­creases.'' This was most improper. If the Colonial Treasurer made a mistake and misled the House, it was his duty to make the correc­tion in the House, and not in a paper which was the patron of the Government.

Question -That the House do now adjourn-put and negatived.

VOTE TO MRS. JAAP. Mr. :M:uRPRY said, at this late hour of

the night he did not intend to make a speech upon the motion which stood in his

name, because he would take an opportu­nity, if they allowed the .question to go into committee, of considering it upon its merits. This was only a preliminary stage, and he ~hould be prepared when the question came m to commi ttcc to make out a case for the lady for whom the grant was asked. The late Dr. J aap, as honourable members were aware, died in the discharge of his duties, leaving a widow and five children, and the amount for which he "\Vould ask was tanta­mount to one year's salary. This was not an exceptional instance in which the House had made such grants, for in the Supple­mentary Estimates of last year he found four grants of a similar character. He begged, therefore, to move-

That this House will, at its next sitting, resolve ~tself into a Committee of the Whole, to cons1der of an Address to the Governor, praying that His Excellency will be pleased to cause to be placed upon the next Supplemen­tary Estimates the sum of £600, as a gratuity to the widow of Dr. Jaap, late surgeon-super­intendent of the W oogaroo Lunatic Asylum.

The CoLONIAL SEcRETARY did not intend to enter into the question now, nor did he wish it to be SU})poscd that the Govern­ment would assent to the claim. If they did assent to it more of the same kind would follow. He said this brcause he was anxious that the honourable member should not be led astray by supposing that the Government would support him.

JVIr. \VusR said if the Government did not intend to assent to the claim they should have objected to it at once. They had no right to hold out false hopes under the pretence of its being a late hour in the evening. He believed that a very fair case could be brought forwttrcl for this widow, and he thought the Colonial Secretary ought to have made himself better ac­quainted with the facts of the case before expressing his opposition to it.

The PREMIER said that, assuming the honourable member for Cook could bring forward a good ease, it was far better that it should be put in committee, and, as a matter of courtesy, the Government were prepared to W<cive the discussion upon it at this stage.

JVIr. PAL~IER said it would have been much more courteous on the part of the Colonial Secretary if he had said he was not prepared to support the motion. To say, before hearing the case, that he should give it his utmost opposition was anything but courtesy.

The CoLoNIAL TREASURER remarked that the cases quoted by the honourable member for Cook were not parallel ones, as they only referred to allowances under the Civil Service Superannuation Act.

J\fr. GRoo~r said that to allow the motion to go into committee was, in his opinion, to excite false hopes. One of the cases cited by the honourable member for Cook was

Yute to J;[rs. Jaap. [ASSE:~1BLY.] Arf:juto'nment.

quite parallel with that of Mrs. J aap ; he referred to the C:lSC of J\fr. Rose, the late engineer of roads and river~. who died in the public sen"ice. It. was for the House, and not for the Colomal Secretary, to say whether this unfortunate 1viclow should have a gratuity, or whether. she and her five children should go beggmg about the the streets.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN said he thought the Government had more of the spirit of fair play than to. say first ~hey would. !jive this motion thmr cletermmecl oppositiOn and then allow it to go into committee. T~ey ought certainly to hear reasons before deciding.

M:r. STEWART was of opinion that the matter had better have been discussed now, because to allow the motion to go into committee implied that there w~s a pri:nfl facie claim on the part of .the w1clow, -:·Inch he for one would not admit. He behevccl that the Colonial Secretary was in posses­sion of as full information about this mat­ter as any other honourable member could be and that he knew all the circumstances of 'the case perfectly well, and was, there­fore, entitled to say that he ~Vould oppose the motion. If the argument of the hon­om·able member fol' Toowoomba was to apply to this widow, it should also be made to apply to the widow cf every other n;an "·ho had died in the Government service. He ubjectPcl to the principle being admitted in isolated instances, which were the result of button-holing, and formed a system ?f favouritism which ought not to prevml. There ~Vere circumst~ncPs in connection with this case vrhich he was sure would not commend it to the House, and he for one should orpose the motion.

J\Ir. MoRGAN asked whether-supposing this vras the ~Vidow of constable Smith, with her five childrcm-a single ~Vorcl would have been said about it? Dr. ,Ltap ~Vas in receipt of £600 a-year, and there was nothing, as far as he was aware of, to prevent his haYing his life. insured and thus providing for his fam1ly. ~t 01:e time a doctor-he would not mentwn lns name-~Vent to "\Yanyick without a six­rcnce in his pocket, and in the course of less than t~Velve months he mmu1gecl, by his courteous and winning ways, to leave the place £350 in debt, in order to get a Government billet. And then, because he had chosen to be improvident, the House was asked to proYicle for his widow ~nd children. He should vote dead agamst this motion.

Mr. MuRPHY \Vould be able to answc>r all objections satisfactorily Vl·hen the cac:e came on in committee, and would show, in reply to the hononrable member for "\Yar­wick, that the late Dr. Jaap was precluded from insuring his life.

Question put aml pas;:;ecl.

ADJOURNMENT.

'l'he PRE:J,IIER moved-That this House do now adjourn until to­

morrow at 3 p.m., and tbat Government busi­ness take prcceclence of other business on that day.

He hoped the motion would be acceded to, as it was desirable to get on as rapiclly as possible with the business of the session.

Mr. "\V ALSH asked what business it was intended to go on with if the motion was carried P

The PREMIER replied that he proposed to take the Estimates.

Mr. PEHKINS said that no business what­ever had been clone this week, and he did not see why this extra burden should be thrown upon members by asking them to attend on Friday. He, for one, h.ad not the slightest intention of attending to­morrow.

The CoLOXIAL TREASURER said, in order that he might not be accused of wasting the time of private members, he had pur­posely delayed un~il now making any reply to the assert1ons of the honoura­ble member for "\Varrego, that he (the Colonial Treasurer) had committed an offence against the respect clue to the House, by having inserted a raragraph in one of the local newspa]Jers to correct certain remarks which he had made in this chamber. The matter was hardly worth mentioninO', and 11ould not have merite-d reply wcrt? it not that he did not wish the remarks to go uncontradicted; but he might say that the paragraph in questio~ was inserted in this morning's Cozo·ier Without either his knowledge or his instructions.

J\ir. I YORY did not think the Government were serious in their attempt to get a House to-morrow. The motion of the Premier \Vas evidently the result o~ some part;t­grnphs which had appeared m the pubbc ]Jrint s, accusing the Government of be1_ng unable or umnllmg to get throng~ w1th the public business. It was not aclnsable, in the interests of the country, that the Estimates should be forced through with a bare quorum. The Estimat.es were in their pre~ent backward state owmg to the want of diligPnce on the part of the Government in bringing them forward.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that, while he was quite prepared to come clown to-morrow,. if hiR attendance was needed, he would pomt out to the House tha:t to-morrow was En"lish mrtil-day, and that many honour­ab]~ members engaged in business would be precluded from attending.

l\fr. M ciL \\'HAITH said it was 11 most unfair thing to ask honmn·able members to meet to-morrow under the circumstances mentioned by the honourable member fur Stanley. . .

JYir. P.tL)lER smd the l)rl'mJer ought first to han made himself sure of getting a

Formal J1.otions. [1~ SEPTE11BER-]

quorum from his own side of the House, for it was certain that he would not get one from this (Opposition) side. H was a most unfair proposition, especially as they had not arrived at that period of the session when Friday sitting-s were neces;;ary. If the Go,'ernment had ,,-ithdravm all the ·wretched increases on the Estimate~, they "l''ould have got thrJugh them by this tinw. He would move, as an amendment, that tho House, on its rising, do adjourn until Tues­day.

The Pn E>HER was sorr.~ to hear from the leader of the Opposition that he would not assist him in making a House to-mor­row, for if he would not do so there was not much chance of their getting a House together at all, as some of the Government supporters wollld not he able to be present. \Yith the permission of the House, he would "l'·ithdraw his motion.

The am0nclment was put and passed, and the House, at four minutes to ten, adjourned till Tuesday.

AdJournment. 013