Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 3 DECEMBER 1901

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

2186 Paper. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

TUESDAY, 3 DECEMBER, 1901.

The SPEAKER (Hon. Arthur Morgan, rVar'1Vick) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PAPER. The following- paper, laid on the table of the

House, was ordered to be printed :-Return to an Order, relative to atmospheric humidity in Cairns, Mackay, Bundaberg, and Bri"bane, made by the House, on motion of Mr. Givens, on the 7th November last.

QUESTIONS. GREAT NonTHER:s- CoPPER AND GOLD MI:s-IXG

CoMPAXY, RosEwoou. Mr. BRO\VNE (Cropdon) asked the Secre­

tary for l:vlines, without notice--VViH any fnrther action be taken with regard to the

correspondence in connection with the Gr., >tt, Xorthern Copper and Gold ~lining Company, which has been laid on the tnble, to have it circulated, so as to let people know the facts of the case?

The SECRETARY .FOR :MIKES (Hon. R. Philp, 1'mm.<ville) replied-

1-Yc hare given every publicity to the correspondence. It has been laid on the table, and the paper has been printed. The local papers have made it public also; and it is pretty well known both in Australia and in London by this time. I may Ray also that Iteuter's correspondent has cabled home.

LOAN OJ;' BLOCKS TO "STRE};T" NE\Y~PAPER.

Mr. LESIN A ( Clermont) "'ked the Secretary for Agriculture - or the Premier- withouG notice-

Ha Ye any blocl(s been lfmt by the Government Printing Otlice to the Street newspaper and other ne\vs­payeT~ to enable them to bring out their Christmas numbers:

The PRE:VIIER (Hon. R. Philp, Tmunsville) replied-

! }(now nothing about it.

PETITIO~. LICEXHTXG AOT-SI:XIlAY TRADING.

Mr. McMASTER (Ji'o1·titude Valley) presented a petition from certain residents of Bnornodahin, protesting against any alteration of the Licensing Act with regard to Sund:>y trading.

Petition received.

SUPPLY. RESUMPTION oF Co;mnT'fEE.

SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IXSTRUOT!Ol'l.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. D. H. Dalrymple, "lfackay) m'"ed that £5,404 be granted for "Spcreto,ry for Public Instruction." The only difference in the vote comprued with th•.t of last year was caused by the re3ignatwn of a clerk, by which a small saving had been effected.

::vJ:r. BRO\VNE (Croydon): This was a very nnportant.d"partment, and, of course, there were a great 1nany subjects for di·"cnsKion in it. He suppoged that it w"uld hP as well to follow the course which had been hitherto adopted, and that was to take the gener<Jl discus>inn on the first item. Tbe mo.tter h6 wished to brin~ forward first was the difficulty of getting additions and repairs to existing school~, and of getting new schools. It would be remembered that on 1st August a motion was introduced by the hon. member for Flinders, and amended by the hon. member for ~ orth Brisbane, l\Ir. FmTest, and carried, whereby the old prac'ice under which parents had to sub;:crihe one-fifth towards the cost of repain~, additions, or ne,,~ ~chools waR rlPclared to be no longer necessary, and it was nffirmed that in future the department should find all the neces,ary fnnds. Not only had not that been carried ont, but he believed that in a large number of cases school committeeo. had collected the n,oney, and had it in hand, bnt still they were unable to get schools put up. Of course the cry w"s that there was no money-that the vote was exhausted, and the Treasury was so depleted that the department could not carry out the work. That was the cry

8upp1,y. '3 DECEMBER. J 8upp1;y. 2187

year after year. The House had always shown its l"ymvatny with education, and though merrt· bers differed on other things, they always seemed reacJy to grant any money that might he asked for by ttle :Ylinister in charge of the department for the purpose of educating the children of the colony. They had it in the report of the Chief lns,,ector that unless the department .had more money they could not carry on theu work efficiently, and th.ct there were a number of additions and repairs and new schools required. He also laid great stress on the fact that a large number of pr.,visional schools ought to be con vert.ecl into State schools. It was not a question of the House being against the expenditure of 1noney, becanse Par­liament had always been ready to provide any money required for the purposes of education, and if they were going in for retrenchment, there were many directions in which they might carry it out, without starving this department. He believed that the feeling all round was in favour of extending this vote, or ,,t any rate that they should get a promise that ~, supplementary vote would be asked for, to allow some of the di,tricts which were badly in want of additional educational accommodation to be provided for. He thought a sympathetic Minister, knowing the wishes of the House, would try to give ,effect to tht m by endeavouring to provide the additional accommodation and the new schools that were required.

* HoN. A. S. CO\VLEY (Herbert) qmte en­dersed a goo l deal that had been said by the hon. member for Croydon, and would draw attention to a case which came under his notice a few days ago. He would like to ask the Minister first whether, if it was l'ropused as soon a~ money was forthcoming for the work of the department, to give tbe preference to the school committees wh·• had already fulfilled all the conditions of the A et by cnllr cting the money and providing the sites to entitle them to get schools built~ In the case "hich he wish<•d to refer to-which was in his own electorate-the .,chool committee took all the step" which were necessary to have their provisional ochool cnnverted into a State ~chool, and they had done that at the instigation of the dep>trt>nent. He woulrl quot.e from a letter from thedepu.rtment, dated 19th September, 1800, in whicb they drew attention to the fact that there were more children in the school than were absolutely necessary £01· a provisional school, and requested the committee to" take the necessary steps to erect a State school. The ·department poiuted out-

The provisional ~chool is a n~.\keshift, an cl the de­partment is not organif'ed to equip these schools with buildings, fnrnitnre and teachers in a satisfactory way or to fit them to give erlucation up to the standing re­·quired by the State.

I a.m directed by the J1inister to draw Your attention to the foregoing hwts, anti to invite tlu3 school com­mittee to consider the desintbleness of taking steps forthwith for the establishment of a State school to supersede the provisional school at lVIacknade.

On the 28th :February, 1901, the Under Secre­tary again wrote to the committee-

·when the site has been secured to the department, the JHinister will approve of tenders being called for the erection of State school buildings \V hen the committee have paid in cash two-thirds of the estimated amount of local subscriptions needed, and will authorise a tender to be accepted when the committee have signed a joint and several guarantee to pay the actual balance of local subscriptions needed, the period of the guarantee to be arr!lnged hereafter.

After the committee had secured the site and provided the guarantee, the department coolly informed the committee that the Cabinet had decided that no guarantees were to be accepted in future, and that in any case owing to the lack of funds it would not be possible to invite

tenders this financial year. He sympathised. with the Government in their desire to retrench, in order to make re\'enue meet expenditure, but he thought preference should be given to thot'e school c >mmittee>< who had iulfilled all the conditions th,;t had been imposed upon them, before other people who had not complied with these conditions were attended to. He douuted verv much whether the Government bad acted wi>ely in making certain promises to school cormni ttees and then saying they conld not accept what they themselves hao proposed. He did not think that anv al,eration in the system should be made retrospective ; and if any promises Were: Dl:-tde to ~chool COminittees, they should he hoHestly and faithfully c~nied out.

:V1r. PLUKKEf'l' (Albert): A few da0 s ago he asked the Premier the full<1Wing queAtions :-

1. Is it true that eomrnittce~ of State ancl provisional schools, after finding the one-fifth of the money nece.:.;sary fm• the erection of ~cllools, have hec11 refn-=ed the nsmll fonr-flt'ths of the amount hitherto gran rea by the l~dncational Department?

2. \Vhat is the r ~mse or such refusal? :3. \Vhen may ~chocl committees expr,ct from the

Educational Department the usual fom•-fiftlls of amount necc.;;sary for the erection of their schools:-

And the 1\Iinister replied-1 and 2. rrhe usual subsidy for work approved has in

no case been refn-srd ; hut in some cases the ~ranting of the subsidy or the earrying out of the work has been deferred, the money provided on the Estinuttes being insuftic.ent to meet all claims.

:~. ·when sufficient funds are provided.

He thought those answers were very vague. He could not understand how it was the Go­vernwent could find n1oney for a great many other purposes, and yet when mouey was 'lsked for for educational purpo,es thcey said they had no money. He would like some explanation from the :V!inister on the m~ttter.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE considered that school committees who bad ful­filled all C<mditions and r<quirements >-hould have a preferential claim on the department before the claims of others wh•J came in later on, and wben money was available their claims should be recognised. The reason why no S!•ecific action had been taken ou the resolution of the House passed on the 1st .\ugust was owing to the need of economising, and if there was the same difficulty in obtaining money to carry on the ordinary ccml'be of business in con. nection with schools, it was pretty evident that to incur additional burdens would be false economy. The first thing they had to do was to carry out th<> Act with regard to new schools, and the difficulty which hon. members had complained of was not a difficulty uf to-day; for, ~hen the "Works Estimates went through, an rtem was passed gr'tnting £20,000 for new buildings, repairs, and additions. Last year a larger amount was voted, and still the difficulty existed, so that it was not surprising that it existed now. The Government were quite at one with hon. members in their desire to have new schools erected aud to have improvements generally in the edncatioual system. That went without saying.

Mr. TURLEY : That is not so. I deny that.

The SECRETARY :FOR AGHICULTURE: That was his assertion, and it was probahly as good as the denial of the hon. member for South Brisba;,e. Iu S! ·ite of the bad times; in spite of the fact that all departments-with one exception -were retrenching, the Educational Deputment was spending no less than £21,600 in excess of the sum spent last year. He might say that all urgent works would be gone on with a; soon as possible. The leader of the Oppr<sition and other hon. members knew that when urg~nt works were needed, and the estimate was exceeded,

:2188 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl,y.

new buildings, additions, and repairs, he was afraid that if Ministers adhered closely to the

Supplementary :Est.imates were brought forward to validate the expenditure that had taken place, and he was satisfied that every effort would be made to provide sufficient funds to carry on the ednc~tion of the colony. \Yith regard to the statement that the sam~ cry had been made year

after year with reference to the [4 p.m.] delay in the erection of school

buildings, he did not think that was correct. Previous to the time when he first took charge of the Department of Public Instruction it had been found necessary to hold over a great many works in consequence of financial pressure, but that had not been the practice, and he was sure that the Government would do their utmost to provide whatever funds were required for more urgent works.

! Estimates a le's sum would be spent on educa­tion thL< year than was expended last year. He was satisfied that if any private member tabled a motion praying that the necessary provision for new buildings be made on the Supplementary Estimates, a majority of the House would vote for it but it was not their province to take the matt~r out of the hands of the Government in that way. He hoped that the Gover:m1ent would themseh'es make the nPcessary prm·rswn.

Mr. BROWNE maintained that the same cry had been heard year after year. As to the statement of the lVlinister that so much money had been granted for school building-s on the Works Estimates, he would )JOint out that when those E,tirnates were going througi1 the Secre­tary for Public \Vorks informed the Committee that he was not responsible for them, and that if the several departments concerned wanted more money for buildings they should have r•rovided for it in the usual way. The hon. member for Herbert had given a specific case of delay on the part of the department in erecting a school ; it was a very bad case, and there had been several cases of a si1nilar character. Some time ago be received a letter from the school committee at Croydon with reference to a small addition to the teacher's residence at that place, and the matter had been under con­sideration for eight or nine years. The re,idence was !milt without a veranda. About the end of 18D1 the department were going to add verandas to the building. but, the then teacher who had a family left, and his place was taken by a bachelor who stated that the house was quite sufficient for him, and so the matter had been left in abeyance year after year. Last year the bachelor teacher-much to the regret of everyone concerned-ha':! to resign, and a married teacher was now in charge of the school. '.r!Hl cost of adding the verandas wa,s only a"tout .£105 ; the committee were prepared to pay the amountrequiredfron1 them, and were very anxious to ba ve the work done before the wet season set in, aR the residence in its present condition was uot at all fit for a teacher with a family. About the <1nd of August last he interviewed the Secre­tary for Public Instruction on the subject, and that gentleman informed him that contribution or no contribution, there was no money available for the erection of the school, as the ''ote had been ''xceeded long before the financial ~ear ended. He hoped that the :\1inister would see his way clear to put an additional sum on the Supplementary J<;stimates for such purposes.

Ho)!, A. S. COWLEY thanked the Minister for his promise, and hoped that the Premier, who was now in his place, would recngnise that a promise had been made by the Secretary for Agriculture that the claims of school committees "ho had raised the neces,c<ry funds and deposited the money in the Government Savings Bctnk would be considered before applications for new Fchools. With regord to the statement of the Secretary for Agriculture that the total vote fnr the Department of Public Imtruction for this year was £21,000 more th'1n the amount granted last year, he would point out that there was £10,000 less for school buildings voted on the Works Estimates, so that there was really only an increase of £11,000 in the vote for the current year; and if to the amount voted last year they added the extra snrn spent over and above the £30,000 granted for

Mr. :\lULCAHY (Gpmpie): Like the last speaker, he hoped an addit.ional sum would be placed upun the Estimates. In his electorate there was a school which had accommodation for only 375 pupils, in which there were 5~0 scholars. K o action bad been taken by the committee to collect money for additions, as they were under the impression, after the resolution which had been carried, that the Government would bear the cost in future. He was afraid that the carrving of that resolution had misled people, and "bud thus done a great deal of harm. In the north-western portion of his electorate also there wa~~ urgent need for a school, ati the in;:,pector had reported; but, as there was no money forth­coming, it had to be done without for the next uine months. He believed the majority of hon. members would be in favour of an additional sum being placed upon the Supplement.,ry Esti­mates to provide for school buildings.

Mr. AlREY (Flinrhrs) : There seemed to be a mist a ken impression with regard to the generosity of the Queensland Government in matters relat­ing to education. It was perfectly true that Parliament had always heec. willing tn do what it could in that cause, but at the same time it was wroncr to suppose tha~'-. Queensland stood foremost :mongot the colonies in what she did for educ"tion. If they turned to Coghlan they would find that for the years 1809-lBOO New Sonth Wales Ppent on education, excluding buildings, £3 lGs. lOd. per head; Victoria, £4 .~s. Ud.; \Vestern Australia, £~ 15s. Sd.; and Queensland, £3 5s. 10d. Including school bnild­ings, 'Yew South \Vales spent £4 ik 2d.; Virtoria, £4 12s.; \Vestern Aubtralia, .£4 16s.; and QnPenshnd, £3 14s. lld. So that Queens· land was nearly at the bottom of the list. If they took the financia,l budg>t of the London School Board as a tf;st, they fnund th•t the ex­]Jenditure in 189,~ was £2,171,000, and in 1H(J1 £3,093,000-an increase of nearly. £1,000:000 i~ six yc·:trs. The gro&;; cost per pn]Jil WB·• m 18>b £3 "14s. lld. ; and in 1901-1002, £4 lls. 5d. ; whiie for the yeat 1\)00 th~ •rross cost per pupil in Queensland was only £3 14s. !ld. ; so that, whether they were judged by the standard of the London School Board or by the standard of the neighbouring colonies, they were a great deal below either of them. As far as educational results were concerned, £1 spent in London purchased superior facili­ties t" those provided in Queensland. He trusted the Gnvernment would take a generous view of the matter of providing the fullest educational facilities poesible for the children of Queensland.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The hon. member for :Flinder' >eemed to take a somewhat pessimistic view of what had been done in Queensland towards providing educational facilities, becanse, as a matter of fact, Queensland came secnnd among the colonies in the amount per bean of the population she spent upon pri­mary education. The average in New South \Vales was 9·71 shilling-s per head; Victoria, 11"39; South Australia, 7"78; ·western Au~tra­lia, 6"99; Tasmania, 4"38; and Queensland, 9·80 shillings. In giving the expenditure on education,

Suppl.1J. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2189

he would point out that they were not running on parallel lines to the other colonies. For instance, in Queensland the cost of building>, which amounted to £30,000 last year, was not included in the coRt of the Department of Public lnotruc· tion, and that tact might lead people who were not aware of it to conclude that the Departruent of Public Instruction was not Rpending as much on education as it really was.

}h. STORY (Bctlonnc) noticed three items for travellinv expenses on these Estimates, and be trusted that some of that money was for the travelling expense" of the itinerant teacher who was sent out last year to the Balonne electorate. He had that gentlem,,n's report, and it wa• a most intere""ting one. The sending out of that gentleman was the first "tep to1Va!·ds the aim he hadhc<din view ever since heenteredP<trliament­the educ tion of children in the buRn who were altogether out of the scope of the l~ducation Act. It. was absc>lutely necessary in a country like tins that there should be people on the fringe of civilisation, where their children were cut off from the ordinary educational advan­tages, and it was necessary that they should receive an education fron1 Sorne source, and it was equally necessary that the Government should aseist in enabling them to receive that educo.tion. A friend of his had informed him that the sptem which had been adopted in South Africa for ye ~rs was for the Government to pa)' for children so c>ituated at the same rate as they paid for the children taught in the State schools. Though he was speaking particularly with regard to his own dit:itrict, hiH retnarlo applied ~qua1 ly t'? ~he \Varrego, Barcoo, l\Iitchell, }'lin­uers, Lewnhardt, and other electorate'. He felt that he owed a great debt of gratitude to the department for sending out the itinerant teacher to his district fir,;t. It was a mis­nomer, however, to call him C<n itinerant teacher because if he sec a boy a sum on one selec: tion the boy might be over school ~ge before he would be able to visit that selection again. He found in this report th~tt in his elec­torate there were 408 children attending State and provisional schools, and 420 who oid not attend any school whatever. Of those not attending school, there were 1;31 under school age and 2G\J over school age. The parents of those children receiv6d no as•Jistance from the Statt: on ~1ccount of their educ..ttion. Evc.~.1 :sup­posing the Government were to put on the Estinmtes an amount that would serve to pay as much towards the education of those children as they were p>1ying to wards the education of children attending the different schools of the colony, the tot<tl for 269 at £:i 14s. !Jcl. would only amount to £1,00;3 7s. 9d. But" he took it that there would not be more than 75 per cent. of those children who would }Jass the examina­tion, 'o th:<t the total amount the Govern· ment would have to risk would he something over £700" Of course, the Government would not give one sixpence on account of a child who \vas not t ,u;;ht; but he would give ever} indncen,ent tu parents to find some m~an'"'" of educating their chrldrcn by offermg to pay the same amount for their educ ,tion as was being paid for the •oduca­tion of children attending Sto.te and r-•rovioional schools. He would quote a ftw cases frvin the report of the itinerant teacher. HB knew most of the people intimately, and he knew that most of the ease; were approximately true at any rttte. On the tir;t pJge he fonnu that at South Burgorah there were seven children. The eld, _,!",

twelve years, had had two years' education; and of the number them were four of school age and uninstructed. On page 4 there were five children ranging from ten yearc, nin~e months to four years who had never been to school, but were tn.ught by the mother. Considering

the multitudinous duties of an ordinary mother, the fact that she taught her children at all showed that she was well worthy of being a mother, and he thought she was well worthy of being helped by the State in the matter of their education. On the same page there were children of ten, eight, six, and five y~:trs of age who had never

been to school, but were taught by [4"30 p.m,] their mother. ]'urthcr down on

page 5 there were children of twelve years and eight months, ten years, nine years, seven years and five years who had never been tu schooL That was the history of that family. \Vhat was the history of their future? The oldest of them, aged respectively ten years and twelve years and eight months, bad never been to s~hool. Then there was a family in which there were children of twelve, nine, eight, seven and five years of oge who had never been taught, A little further on they would see some of the efforts that had been macle. At \Vallan Creek there ''"ere children aged ten years and eleven munths, eight years and eleven months, six years and eight months, and four years and five months, and the report said-

::\1r. Clanclly, at much personal saerifice, employs an ehlcrly gentleman to teach the younger children.

He had known this man for over twenty years, and hce had never knuwn him to have more than enough for his bare daily "ants. It was clear that he had managed to get some old man to stay at his pi ace and tr;;ch his children, and he could well understand at what sacrifice he had done it-prolY1bly at almost the sacrifice of the clothes necessary for decency. Then, they had H. Oollins, who had a wife and seven children, whose agf"~ \V ere-fourteen years and ten rnunths, twelve years and nine month;,, ten, eight, and six year', who had never been to school. In this instance, there w~s the note-

::\Il·s. ~md =.uiss Dickson, the wife and daughter of the manager oe the rnn, have been teaching these children. These ladil"l will attend gratuitously to ttle education of all the children on the run.

That said volumes for the owners of the run, but he thought anyone would have done the same thing under the circumstance,, but it showed the effort that was being made to give these children some sort. of education. On the next page there was a family in which therd were children aged thirteen, eleven, nine, eight, six, and four years of age who had never been to school. The eldest was a girl thirteen years and two months, and she had never been to school. Imagine what fate was ht'rs when she grew to womanhood ! Imagine what the State lost by these children not being educated? They had the right to the adYantages that other children enjoyed. The fact that they lived in the bush should no~, debar them from the privileges than were enjoyed by the children living in the towns, where the State provided educational facilities. Then on page 9, they had \Villiam \Vdsh with wife and family of lour children, aged respec­tively fifteen years and three months, 1hirteen, and eleven years. The younger had been attend­ing the Shte school at Obarleville for the past twenty months, and there was the note-

The parents are keeping the hoy :J.'Iartin at school in the hope that he mny be able to help his brothers after a y0~u· or two in their studies.

That was a forlorn hope, for he supposed that when the boy went back the other boys would be beyond the age of tuition. On page 10 much ~he sarm tale was told. There were three girls who were receiving no education. On the next page there were eleven children, six of whoru were of school c.ge, who were uneducated. In most of thes' cases the parents had under­taken to supervise the work of the childrell. It was absolut."ly impossible for these people to

2190 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

find teachers for their children, unless they were assisted by the Government. On pag·e 13 there were three children, two of whom were of >chool age, and a sisttr of twern:v-one years of age had undertaken to conduct t.heir education. In another ca'e there· were ten children, eight of whom were of school age. In one instance, at the request of the bun. member for Port Curtie, he eng•ged an elderly man, who, through a series of misfor­tunes, had got into Dunwich, to take a position in his district. The man was taken into a family where there were ten children, and he ",{s engaged to teach them. This he was quite able to do, •md he was glad of the position. He (Mr. Story) believed there were numbers of elderly men who would be glad of 9. position of that sort in the bush, and who would be uble to do this work very satisfactorily. If the Go­vernment would take this matter in hand, they would find scores of men who would go out and teach these children. If afterwards it was certi­fied by an officer of the department that the children had been fairly well taught, the Go­vernment should then pay what it would have cost to te~ch the children in a State school. All they had to do was to supply men to teach them. Then let the inspector go round next year and see if these children bad made fair progress; if they bad, pay the men, and if they bad not, let them go unpaid. On page 14 be saw there were at Abhadoah nine children of school age who had been instructed by a governess, who was not employed at present. That undoubtedly meant drought. Owing to the drought it was impossible to pay the ex­pense of educrcting children in many places out \V est, and tbe consequence was that the sducation the children had previously received was practically wasted. :Fancy there being nine children in a place who were not being taught at all ! On page 15 of the report he saw another case where there were s, ven children, five of whom were of school age, and only two of them knew the alphabet. If an inspector went round in thickly populated por­tions of the colony and found such a state of things there would be such an outcry that would force the children to be sent to school. The duty that; parents owed to their children and that the State owed to these children should be recognised. Parents had no right to produce childr. n and bring- them up in this way when they could avail themselves of the advantages of education; but in the cases he had re­ferred to the JXtrents had no opportunity to erlucate their children, although they had every desire to do so. Their position deprh ed them of anything like the advantag-es people had in thickly-populated places. On p:tge 15, he saw that a boundary-rider had five children, two of school agP, and that "the father will inHtrnct the children." If he knew anything about boundary­riding, he thought that the time a bouuc . .uy­rider hacl to instruct hi::; children was not rnuch­cert::.inly his in&truction would not fit them for the univer.-ity. It wa•1 absurd to expect such a mnn to educate his children. Then, again, l\1r. J ohnston could not stop long at any one place; it would be twelve or fifteen wonths before he would come round to these places agoin. So what was the use of talking about itinemnt teaching? There were a number of children getting no education, \Vh0 C(mld t>a~ily get education if the Gover11111t>nt held rut n, helpin,g­hB.nd to th· parents. Then on page 16 he saw that near Bonebrok0 t a man had four children, and two gentlemen on the run promi,ed to super­intend the studies of these children. That showed the t the people out there were not satis­fied with the present condition of things; and it was possible to get men and women to help children in education, recognising the awful dis-

advantages that tbe~e children laboured under in this way. He was l'roud to know that there were men and women who would do that, Then on page l'i he saw that at Nindy Gully a man had four children uneducated, two of whom were of school a;.:e, and the mother promised to give the children what instruction she could. He hs,d placed these cases before the Committee to show the position of affairs out \Vest. He had spoken on this subject before, and he did not think it would be a difficult matter to deft! with. 'rbev knew the number of children, and that it would cost about £700 to co,·er the expenses of trying the experiment for one year, for the great district from the Balonne right bl yond the vVarrego-where settlement "as increasing very hst. That only applied to the actual amounj, that would be paid to the teacherR, supposing the children were properly taught; but he held that one inspector could do the work, because­he would not travel aR an ordinary inspector did, but from place to place as most convenient. He thought the experiment would he worth trying, and he was satisfied that it would have to be tried, because there were many people out \Vest who did not like to see their children grow up without edncation, and who left their occu­pations and crowded into townships where they made a living by carting wood and water or the best way they could, so that their children could go to school. There was nothing that they would not do to give their children the chance of b• ing educated in order to make them anything like reopectable and happy citizens. Although the education that they would recei\·e was not absolutely necessary for their living, yet in these days some small atnount of education waH necess-•.ry, and with that edncation added to the natural gifts of these children would make it possible for them to attain to any position. But they would have to be taught at fir"t. lf the Government sdd to the parents of these children, "You teach your children and we will send an inspectorround,"they could make whatever anangements they liked in the way of teachers or governesses. If there wm·e only two or three children there would only be a small bum to pay for teachers, and if two c,r three families with a good number of children in each coml>ined thev could apportion the cost of teaching between them. But at prrsent parents had either to pay it all or leave their children uneducated. The parFnts were so desirous that their children sbonld be taught that they would do all in their pow8r to make a tPacner ·comfortable, and if the plan he sugge·Jted, of paying by re~ults, were adopted it "'· ould he to the interest of the parents to do all thev could to fnrther the instruction of their children, as the teacher's salary would be abso­lutely ilependent upon the amount of tmtio11 the cl•ildrcn received and upon the report of the inspector. And it would be to the interest of th·' teacher to make a success of the scheme. He honed the Government would make an effort to give this scheme a trial. If it was a failure they would not be oblig ·d to go on with it. But there was no reason why the depart­ment should not step out of ·the groove in which it now worked. He knew that it was dolll~ wonderfullv good work, but it wa"· all on one line. '\Vhere" there were sufficient children for a school the residPnts c<>uld get a school, but wl•a> as wonted was that means shoulri be afford<"~! to provide a t.8acher where there were not sufficient children for a school. If the Minister should suggest thnt claRsified teBchers Rhould he employed, and that the department would not have control over any hut classified teachers, he should sny that would be simply uselese, as the teachers would have to live in the same house a,, the parents, and classified teachers

Supply. [i:l DECEMBER.] Supply. 2191

would not live in some places under the con­dition,; which prevailed. If it were left in the hands of the parent" to get a teacher, they woul<1 consider it their business to see that he was ]JrOpd!y treated, and to do every­thing they could to enable him to bring the chil<iren on, as it would be the bu>iness of the teacher to do all in his power to adv,mce the education of the children. He tru.>Led thott the Government would give this matter some con· sideration, and make a trial of it in one di,trict, for he WBAi sure that it would be a success. The Under :::lecretary of the department had travelled over these uistricts with pack horses, and he knew how impo."ible it was to bring the Phildren there under the influence of State school.. Every d •v and every year there were numbers of chjldren growing up in those places in absolute ignorance, and nobody stretched out a hand to help them. He hoped that some aseist­ance would be given in the direction he had indicated.

Mr. BOW;\IAN ( War1·eyo) believed that everyone would give credit to the hon. member for Bnlonne for the int,;rest he had taken in the education uf bush children in the vV P~tern parts of Queensland. What the hnn. member had said abont the Balonne applied to every \Ve,,tern electorate. He (Mr. Bowman) had received letters from manv families in his own elector.ote asking whether it was possible to get a teacher appointed in their district, and he had inter­viewed the Minister on the subject. The Minis­ter 11ad informed hin1 that the matter was purely an experimental one at present, and that the department desir··d to see how it would work. The report of the itinerant teacher ~poke for itself. On this point he noticed the following paragraph in yesterday\:~ C01n·ier :~

Thv Jlhrister for Public In~truetwn has recDived. a report based on the reports submitted by )'lr. Thomas D. Johnston. the itinerant teacher. on hi~ \YOrk in the South-western part of the eo lolly. The rflpOl.'t covers the time since ~1r. Johnston started at Spring Grove on the 22nd Ji'ehnmry last to 4th instant, ·when he was at, Tin­nenburra ant-station. Between these dates he vi~:<ited 1n:-~ vluccs. at whicu were settled 103 families. Some 498 ~children helonged to tht o;;c families, of whom 31B were ot the school age. Some ninety-two famiUes were pro-vided with school re<tnisite:..~, free of expense, and for eYery family a programnte of work, showing the course of stnclr to be followc'1 by each child, "'\Yas provided for tlle nse of the mother or sister or other relative whose services were enlisted as te~wher. In forty-three families these voluntary tca,ch6rs are sutricicutly well educHted for the dutie.s.; in othf~r c~ses they w·ere un­satisfactory or unreported.

1Ir. ,T. Shirlr:v, one of tlJe inspectors of the Edncation Departmeut, who prepared the report. pointo;: ont that as the present Yisit wm~ spent more in organising it ls impossible to state <lefinitel~· H.S to results, but if .J-1r. J olm~ton 's services are retained it would be possible to speak with more certainty at the end of 1902. He wonld he sorry, too, be says, to sep. l\Ir. Johnston transferred to another distric~t until. in a second circuit, hr has had an opportunity of examining the pnpils ir~ the work already attempL-d. The senior inspector, lVIr. Ewart, concurs in this "Jew.

It. is state~..-1 that the eost of 1Ir. ,Tohnston's \vork for the twelve months Pnding alst December is estinmteJ at £147 Ss. lld., which gfvcs the aver:1ge cost per head of thP- 310 children of school age speeitled at £1 ls. 9~d., as agalnst £2 2-_, Sd. in the State sehools and £3 3s. 2d. in t,Jte proyjsional ::-ebool-s-thc average cost per head on eaeh child in J900 based on the annnal enrolment.

The plan adopted by Mr. Johnston in leaving school re qui 'ites with families and ir1 finding tutor,; for the children would be of decided adv.:lllt.age to the children. \\'hen they tGok into consider:;.ti< n thP many facilities offered to

children in the centreR of population, [5 p.m.] and the extra advantages given to

those who were specially gifted by providing them with grammar school education, he really thought those who were at a dis-

advantage by reason of the distl'ict' in which they lived should receive more consideration. The cost would be comparatively small, and tht>re were 1nany rnen vvho were too old to work and yet had sufficierot education to he able to impart instruction to children. \Vbat was applicabl» in the electorate of the hon. member for Baloune was aeplicable in every vVestern electorate. He aiso should like an assurance from the 1Iinister that the department \Vould re1nunf~rate thm·e \Vho undertook work of that clwracter and whu could show gnod results. He did not alt• gether agree with the bon. mem­ber for Balunne in saying that if a good rAturn was not shown no payment should be made. because a teacuer might be ·~xceptionally good and yet the children might not be able to pass the necessary exa1nination.

JYir. STORY : I said if good results were shown.

Mr. BOWMAN: He thought if the teacher did his duty htithfully the results in the \V estern country would compare favourably with those attained in the towns. In reading over the report of the Department of Publie Instruction he found thefollowin~, taken from the sub-report of 1Ir. Inspect"r Btown :-

The provisional school at Yelvertoft. 80 far a~ known to me the only instance in the State of a departmental school the pupils of which board with the teachers. was inbpected (for the tlrst time sitJee e,tablishment) on the 211th and 30th ::\fay. Takin~ as the neighbonr­hoo:l of the school the nre ), cnclosHI. hy a circle of 80 or 100 mile~ radius, it appeal'~ that more than half the number of children in the district .. who would otherwise ha,-e been reeeiving no educ ttiou. are enrolled at Yelvertoft. 'fhc parents of three-fonl'Lhs of these eilil­dren belong to the ordinary working-class popnlation of the \Yestern eonntry. During the y .... ar in every part of the district I have made g'eneral inqniriei' w1th re­gard to the children who were not attending any sehool, an~t h;'l,ve had awny conversations with t>arents of such ~·hildren and others \vho were interested in the welfare of the \Vestern country. There appears to be everywhere a sincere dr-.,ire to ha Ye educational facilities for these children, and a willingness on the part of the parents to make consideral:.lle saeriti~es to that end. The general con~e11sns was to the effect that, although much good might aecruefrom othermean:.and methods in -::he mor.e :;cttled portions of the State, the only practicable and efrective s0lution of the problem for those spar~ely-vopulatecl \t estern dlst.ricts lay in tl1e application of elause 10 of the Etlneation Act of 1875, which authorises the est.ablishrnent of board1ug-houses in connection 1Yith departmental schools. ~tYith refrr­ence tO what has been aytly described as. ''the poor man'~ difficulty," it was reassuring to hear the opinion repeatedlv f',xpressf~d. that if the boarding- fee did not exceed the £20 per anr.um charged at Yelvertoft, the great majority of the parents interested could meet the expen.;;es.

That might b~ the experience of Mr. Brown a,t that particnlar place, tmt very many of the men in the \Vest would find it very difficult to pay the amount specified. There were plenty of rnarried men f-mga$5ed as bonnrlary riders who received no more than £1 a week, <l.lld after they had paid for clothing and other re'luisites, there was very little left for education. Mr. Johnston, the itinerant teachtor, deserved every credit for the way in which he had, under great; difficulti,s, gone through his district, and had demons•rat.Pd clearly that the qystem inaugurated by the department could be made a RPcce;;;:;,~. and w.~s t.herefore worthy of being largely extended. \Vhen special con~dderation w~v' given to town children, some thought should be bestowed upon those in the far-away bnsh who had no oppor­tunities afforded to then1 of acquirinr· any education. It. would redound to the credit of the Government if theY placr<l a further ""ll on thR Estimates to provide for the extensinn of the experiment which had alre,dy heen tried, and where tutors-whether they be mothers or sisters or anyone else-showed that tbey had attained satisfactory re~ults, they should be paid for their services.

2192 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.J Supply.

HoN. G. THORN (Ji'assijern) thought the hon. members for Balonne and \Varrego had made out an exc~llent c~se on behalf of theW estern people The_ch1ldren m t~e West had as much right to recer ve an educatiOn as those in the populous towne.. l<Jducation was free in Queensland and it was the duty of the State to educate tlwae in the \Vest as well as those in the towns and he trusted that more would be don~ t~an had been accomplished in the past in the directiOn of educating the children in the srnroely populated districts of the colony. He rnse particularly to make :m appeal on behalf of the female t<•achers of the cleoanment. Their salaries were altog-ether inadequate considering the work they had to do, and he did not see w hv they should not be paid the ,ame as the mafe teachers. :Female assistants and pupil-teachers had the same amount of work as male assistants and pupil-teachers, and he did not see why they should not receive the same pay. The cost of living was greater in the North and \Nest for the females than for the males because men could rongh it anywhere, aHd wo~en could not do so. He had heard several complaints from female teachers in the North and vVest that their lJ":Y was not ~ufficient to keep them going and brmg them oown to see their parents at Christmas. Female teachers of provisional schools abo should be paid at the same rates as the male teachers of those schools. He thought men should be appointed to provisional schools in the North and \Vest, and the women kept in the South part of the colony.

.!'vir. KEI\R : Some of them make good catches by going thAre.

HoN. G. THORN : He was aware of that, but as a rule t.hey did not like to ao awav from the South. Another thing, the all';,wance made to those teachers sent to the North and \V est was not sufficient to cover the extra cost of board and lodging. \V:ith regard to pupil-teachers, he thought the gtrls should not he sent to places far from their horn e.~ And. in connection with their instruction, he understood that s:>me head tAachers were too lazy to teach them thmwh they were allowed £;', a yen,r for eve;y pupll­teacher who pas,ed the annual ex"mination. Coming back to the matter of salaries, he was of opinion that those paid to the male assistants ~ere too low, and he hoped they would be mcrea;ed. He hoped also that the salaries of the females would be assimilated to those of the males. He stood there as the champion of the women-of course be knew that other hon. members were of the same ' av nf think­ing - and he trusted that the I\1inister in charge of the Eotimates of the department would convey his appeal to the Secretary for Instruction.

HoN. E. B. BORREST (Brisoanc North): This discussion opened on the subject of the one-fifth contribution, and he woulcl like to get back to that subject. The Minister informed the Committee that those school committeeo who had pnt up the money represPnting their fifth were to have the preference whenever the Go­vernment were prepared to deal with the question so far as e_xpenditure was concerned. He thought that deCiston was correct. But the Mmioter ,,aid nothing as to the attitude of the Government generally upon the question of the one-fifth con­tributiOn, and he would like to know what they intellded to do in this connection. Shortly after the resoiution w'>s passed last year dealing with the questwn, a paragraph aprwared in the Press which appeared to him to be to some extent incpired, stating- that the rc·gulations were being recaet by the department, but that no attention v.as to he paid to the resolution of Parliament with reference to the one-fifth contribution. 'l'he

paragraph appeared to be the account of an interview with the Minister for Public In­struction.

Mr. TURLEY: What date? HoN. E. B. :FORREST: He had not g-ot the

date of the newspaper. It was cut out and sent to him in August. It read-

The officers of the Department of Public Instruction are to enter upon the 'vork of revising the regulations of the department. r:I.'he J.finister states that there is no special significance attached to this work, which is uudertaken at various timPs. Certainly there will be no alteration in the regulation dealing with the contri­bution of the State school committee"', notwith;;;tancling the re.solntion recently passed in Parliament.

That resolution having been pas;ed by Parlia­ment, he could not conceive it possible that any Minister would take upon himself to make a statement of that sort. He did not believe that the ste,tement was ever made, notwithstanding it barl. appeared in a newspaper. He would like the Minister to make a statement to "utisfy the public outside that the resolution passed in Parliament would be observed. This matter first cropped up ut J<"ortitude Valley. There thej- had got a new schl'ol, a.nd the acconmwda­tion \vas no:. 1nore than sufficient to accommo­date one-half of the children who wished tn attend there. A depubtion waited on the Minister of th > day, Mr. :Hurray, and represented to him that the accommodation was not sufficient for the work. They practically asked him to enlarge the school. The parents had already contributed one-fifth to the cost of the erection of the school, and they were r"solved not to pay any more money for the enlarging of it. The Minister expressed his sympathy with the depu­tation, and said that he would bring- the matter before his colleagues in a few days. Snbe­quently the mc,tter came on in Parliament, and this resolution was passed-

That in the opinion of this House, Regulations 10 and 11 of the State Edu"ation Act of 1875 '-'hould he rescinded, ex.-..ept so far as they refer to the purchase of a site and erection of schools in the first instance. Then appeared the statement that, notwith­, .. tanding this resolution, nothing was to be rl.one. He: would iike the 11ini.,ter to assure the Oom­mitt"e that something would be done. As regards the V alley, it was to a certCLin extent secured. At all events, they had beti·er accom­modation. They wanted a good deal more accommodation-in fact, wanted a larger school­but they could not have everything .1t once; but sooner or h.ter the expenditure of enlarging the school would have to be taken into consi­deration. He would like some understanding when that time arrived that there would be no question of a one-fifth contribution, but that the whole of the work would be done at the expense of the country.

:\fr. GIVENS (Cairns): He believed that the sympathy of hon. members on both side" of the House was with the Department of Education. There was no department so important, because on the efficiency of the Education Department to a large extent depended the future well-being of the State. But looking over the report of Jr.st year he found sorr"' serious charges made, not only as to the efficiency of the State school system, but as to the chm acter of tLe State school teachers in some instances. Yet they found the Minister had not had a word to say in explanation of that report althongh it merited the most serious attention at the hands of hon. members. He would read from page 55 of the ehief inspector's report-

It has seemed to me at timt:s unfortunate that the corresponcicnce with which I have mainly to deal tends to bring before mf' so pointedly as 1t does the side of onr service that is least pleasing and 'vholf'mllle. '!'he complaints, the wran~lings, the misconduct, the sel1ish­ness, the conceit, the la...:iness of a few bulk so largely,

Snpply. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2193

"and occupy so mnch of my time, that there is danger of my forgetting that vast majority of our noble band •lf workers \Vho~men and women, youths and maidens -are building the wall beyorJd my hearing of the che~"ry ring of their trowels; who, siugly or in pair:;:, or in groups of thre>: or more up to ten or twenty, dotted over the expanse of this large State, modt-,;tly, nncom­plainingly, v;,oith carnestne.:<s and self-denial, with energy and more or lc<>s skill and competence. are doing the work that is set them ; of whom in their brave

1

silence nothing comes to me except a condensect. record of the bricks they have laid more or less well and truly. It

If what the inspector said was a libel on the department, the Minister should at once get up and denounce it as a libel; but if it were true, no steps could be too strong for the House to take to compel the Minister to take the neces­sary action to clear out thEse objectionable persons from the department. He awaited with

is deplorable. i think, that :-~JtP.l'long patience and much forbearance the department u.unot with much effort rid itself, for example, of a man well known to be a scaudal in his neighbourhood till it is clearly shown that, he is a sot; or of a woman ,,-ho is 80 harsh and ungracious in speech and mann<~r as to be feared by her pupils, disliked by the varents, and de ~(,steel by her fellow-teachers. In no stHll in the world's open market do people of intemperate habits of whatever kind stay long at a time, and the ticket that indicates their -v ,tlue 1

falls a figure with eYery change of place. rl'here are positions where a tippling man or a na;!ging \YOiwtn may he endured for a time without ri~k of much damage to any except to the unpleasant person; but the very conception of a school, tlw children of a neighbourhood, our children, subjectecl to the iniluence -of persons whose nppetites and conduct are not at least outwardly decent and repntab1e is not to lJe borne. Those who can choose will not. so p~rmit the bloom to be brnshed off their children; but what ol those who cannot ciloose?

interest the r(,ply of the Minister dealing with the portions of the inspector's report he had referred to. It was one of the gravest charges that had ever be8n made against any department

i in Queensland.

The chief inspector plainly <aid that some of these were scandals in their neighbourhood, and yet they conld not be removed. \Vhy ? The only answer that could be given was that political influence W<Ls at work to keep them in po·,itions they were di>gracing- if the report of the general inspector was to be believed. He

(l'iir. GiYens) had never seen any­[5·30 p.m.] thing of the kmd in the department.

The teachers of all grades that he had come into contact with-b<>th men and women-were thoroughly deserving of their positiJns, and they haC. the confidence of the pC~rents, of the children, and everyone in the neighbourhood, but it apjJeared that the de­partment knew that there were a few people of the class referred to by the gener ,J inspector, and yet they allowed the'e perwn" to continue in their positions and to exercise a pernicious influence over their unfortunate pupils. The general inspector also said-

Slmi1arh-, I do not think it is so much ignorance as want of sdf~respect and a proper sense of the fitne•,s of things that permits some persons to fling scrawly, unpunctnated, ill-compo::;ed, and ungrammaticalletters at the om.ce. Teachers should not do so at any rate; and some of them du~not only 1mpil-teachers and candidates for employment, but teachers who ought to know better. A lady Vi'OUld not allow hm·self to write to the head of her department thoughtless and badly executed scribbles any more than f'he would come to the office with her hair blowing loose or her dre~;s awry; nor a gentleman any more than he would enter the omce \Vith his pipe i.n his mouth. If on1· teachers say they have not time to be ladles and gentlemen, I ha Ye no reply.

The general inspector stated plainly that a con· s1derable number of teachers-both rnen and women-c0uld not be termed gentlemen or ladies. He further said-

All the indistinct reacling, and with that one ma.y take the sloppy. unfinished, and semi-pantomhnic con­versation that one has not to go far from home to hear, as well as many set public utterances to which one is subjected, arises for tbe most vart from a form of lazi­ness which is ac:~ ... ompanied by lack of taste and want of self-re.spect on the part of the speaker. and want of respect to the hem·er. It means, in short, "I don't eare whether you hear and understand mr or not; and, besides, what I am saying is not worth much anyway."

How could they expect them to teach children composition if the teacher' themselve,, were unable to compose or to write grammatically? He thought it would be a very bad day for the department if the sort of thing referred to by the general inspector was allowed to continue.

1901-6 T

::VIr. TOLMIE (Drayton and Toowoomua) : He agreed with a great deal of what the hon. mem­ber for .Cairns had said-t' at it was very desir­able that the Education Department should do the best possible work. He thought that the department required a good deal of remodelling. \Vhen free education was introrluceci thirty years ago Queensland was far and away ahead of the other Australian colonies, and really set the example to the rest of the world. But since that time the other States which followed Queensland's example had gone far ahead.

The SEC1RE1'ARY FOR AGRICvLTURE: We want some proof of that.

Mr. TOLMIR said he would give proof of that before he had fini,;hed. If tbey looked at the cost of public instruction in Queensland, and compared the daily average attendance and the annual enrolment, they w,mld find a discrepancy which would account for the £10,000 c•r £20,000 which had been lost to the department. That had, perhaps, ari<en from the fact that although we had free education, yet we had not made it sufficiently compulsory. Twelve month~ ago the Minister put in force the compulsory provisions of the Act, and they had worked with a certain amount of sati,faction, but those provisions did not go far enough. They enacted that sixty days in the half-yesr should be the minimum number of days on which children should attend school, and the consequence of that was that parents made the statutory minimum their maximum. The children did not attend school during the remain in~< portion of the year, and the department were paying the same amount of salaries to the teachers, and providing the same accommoda­tion for pupils, but the pupils were not at schoD!. The full power the teachers were capable of was not utilised. Then, again, the schedule of subjects to be taught was con· siderably overburdened. \Vhen he joined the Department of Pn blic Instruction, nearly twenty years ago. they had a reasonable schedule of work for State schools. But at various times it had been pointed out in the House that in other States they were teaching such and such sub­jects, and it was asked why they should not be taught in Queensland. 'fhe Minis' er in charge of the department agreed to have those subjects taught, and added them to the schedule, and that kind of thing went on year after year, with the result that the schedule was now so over­burdened that it was impossible to get through it in a satisfactory mannN. The present Secretary for Public Lands took a deep interest in secondary schools, and in introducing the matter to the Rouse on one occasion argued, and rightly too, that the time had o,rrived when the Government of Queensland should undertake the work of secondary education just as they undertook the work of primary education. ItJ might be said : \Vhere was the money to come from? The money would come from the people, just as the money required for other purposes came from the people, and he had not heard a single responsible individual in the colony object to paying the money which education cost. The t:lecretary for Public Lands went so far some time ago as to introduce a Bill dealing with the subject of secondary education, and the resnliJ

Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

was that the SecrPtary for Public Instruction decided tn n,dd mathematico to the school curri­culum. The teacher had only twenty-four hours t~n rninutes in the week to give instruc~ tion, and how could he get through the whole schedule in that time? If it w,tsconsidered that one hour a day was a reasonable time to devute to reading and allied subjects, and one hour a day to arithmetic, that would take up ten hours out of the twenty-four hours, and they had still to teach grammar, geography, history, theoretical and pr.<ctical music, ttnd object lessons, pnt in one and a-half hours at drill, half-an-hour at dr9.wing, one and a-halt hours at a1gebra, and one and a-half hours at enclid. The time at the dispnsal of the teacher was not sufficient to emible him to overtake all those subjects, and yet if the pupils did not sho·;v when the inspactor visited the school that they had made fair pro­gress in the schedule subjects, a black mark was put ag,dnst the teacher in the department.

Mr. BROWNE: Supposing a teacher cannot sing, does that tell against him?

Mr. TOLMIE : It frequently happened that a tec,cher could not sing, bnt he had to teach singing c,ll the same, and he got through it some­how. Having regard to the whole matter, he thought that sooner or later the department wot1ld have to establish secondary schools on lines similar to thntie adopted in Kew South Wales. They had in the department a body of teachers v ... "ho, taken as a whole, were as earnest and loyal a band of workers as it was possible to get in any State, but in any band of workers there might be a few black sheep, such individuals as were alluded to in the report of the general in­spector. It was qnite possible th~t in,:tividuals of that character and >ome incompetent persons mighthavegotintotheservice, but taken as a whole the teachers were an earne't and persevering body of men and women, who were "'nxious to do the best for the children entrusted to their charge. But if they were to do their very bl'st for the children they must have a proper training. The training· of our teachers could scarcely be called proper t1·aining as compared with the training afforded teachers in othe~ Stat.es. A pupil­teacher had to work all day long at the school. and when he went home he had to pu"'ue his own studies. During the whole four years that they were going through thdr course their work wa ·<concentrated, they worked in a single grcove, and had no opportunity at all for exp:.tnsion of ideas. He did not think he would be going beyond the truth in saying that while teachers were undergoing their course-• they did not read a dozen books in a year, and that some of them did not read a dozen books in the whole four years. This did not ttrise fr .•m any want of inclination, but abso­lutely from want of time. He knew from experience that they worked in scho.•l from 8 o'clock in the r .or·ning till 5 o'clock in the afternoon, ttnd then worked at their private studies from 7 in the evening till 11 or 12 o'clock. After the pupil-teachers ha,d p:"sed their third cla•·,s examination, they then had to work up for their second class, and all through thei[' caref'r thei were \vorking in a groove. In other colonies, where education was further advanc:ed than in this, au soon as r: teacher had pas;ed through the pupil-teacher's cour -e, he went into a training college, where he had an opportunity of two or three yee,rs' study under tr.1ined men. In ::"i'ew Sonth \Vales they were agitating for an extension of the training college system, alld he knew that evm· since the Tea,.; hers' Union had been formed in 1885 a reso:ution had been passed >'nnually in favour of the establishment of a training college, which seemed to be still as far off as ev2r. If thev were going to do their best for the boys and

girls of the colony, they mmt also do their best for the teachers. .Make them thoroughly competent, and the children would reap the benefit. One had only to go into a school. conducted by a widely-read man, to notice the difference between his scholar" and those of a man who had to struggle under all sorts of ad,·erse conditions. Seeing that the colony was spending £300,000 a year on education, he sa .v no re11son why they should not g,, a little further and give the teachers the benefit of a tr~ining college. Corr.ing back to the question of the onto-fifth contribution, he was thoroughly in sympathy with all hon. n1en.bers who had spoken on the que,t.ion. If ednc:,tion was to be free, let it he entirely free. In his district there wure schools which had subscribed one-fifth for the erection of play sheds, ana there were other& at the present time that had no playsheds or no convenience of the sort, and the order had gone forth that, in consequence of want of fut>ds, none could be provided. He hoped the Minister in charg·e of the :Estimates would recommend to his colleague the granting of a larger sum of money to be placed upon the Snpplementary Estimates for the pnrpose of extending school building, and providing many necessary improve­ment•. There were one or two other matters dealt with in the departmental report to which he perhaps would refer later on, but the poiut he wished to emphasise most at the pre;,ent time wts that they should endeavour to remodel the present system of working. It bad been in existence for thirty yettrs. It had never been subject to an overhaul during that period, and had cumequently become very groovy. In New South V/ ales they were pretty much in the same position, and the Minister for Public Instruction there intended to send two teachers travelling through Europe and Americ" in orde1· to acquaint them,elves with the different sys­tems of instruction in vogue in thof:e countries~ He thought that was a wi ·e course to pursue in preference to choosing two high officials of the derJrtment, a.s the teachers were in sympathy with the w0rk, and knew what the require­ments were. If the Queensland Government were to follow that example, nothing· but good could result to the educational system of the colony. He did not wi'h what he had said to be taken a~, carping criticism in any sense, his only desire being to direct at,ention to what he considered to be the weak poiuts ·in their system with a view to amendments being made, if pocsible. That v. as the attitude which he believed every hon. member took up, one and all being deeply interested in ad\·ancing the cause of education throughout rhe colony.

Mr. S1IITH (Bmtrn) was thoroughly in sym­patby with the remarks of the hon. member for Drayton and Toowoomba with regard to the system of education at present in force in the colony. A movement such as he indic",ted was goin;; on in Kew South \Vales, and would be a step in the right direction here. He believed the K ew South \V ales Minister was trying to work up a sy-,tem which would he continuous from the [Jrirnary school to the university, and if a similar plan could be adopted here it would no don·ot lead to excellent results. \Vith regard to the disclosures hinted at by the chief inspector, he thought they were worthy oft he attention of the :Minister. He could harrlly understand why such a st.1te of affairs as was pointed out by the chief inspeetor should be allowed to exist.

Mr. ToLMJE: It does exist, but you cannot lJrove it.

Mr. SMITH: The matter should be subjected to the strictest invf>stigation. He kne\v it waci very difficnlt to bring such things home. He hhd trier! it himself, bnt, un]ecs a formal charge was made, nothing could be done, and even then

Suppl,Y. [3 DECEMBER.] Suppt-.Y· 2195

his experience was that the punishment was not commensurate with the crime. Why should the people of a district be compelled to make a formal charge? It was surely enongh when the member for the district said that certain things did exist for the department to make inquiry, and if they did exist to make the punishment commen­surate with the offence. He had full sympathy with the hon. member for Balonne in his endeavours to have education extended to the furthest parts of the State, but it was a problem not without difficulty. It would not do to appoint anybody to teach the children in the remote parts of the colony without some check upon the results. The system of payment by results was the only possible way of meeting with the difficulty which the hon. member for Balonne wished to overcome.

Mr. KERR: That system did not give satisfac­tion in Bngland.

Mr. SMITH : It was the only possible way of dealing with the difficulty in those outlyini(

O.istricts, and it was better to deal [7 p.m.] with it in that way than not to

deal with it at all. If the amount now paid per head for the education of the children attending the schools of the colony were paid for instructing the children belong­ing to those isolated families, that would be a means of getting over the difficulty. He did not think there would be any difficulty on the ground of expense, because Parliament had always been very willing to grant money to enable the children of the colony to be educated. All th»t would have to be done wonld be to see that economy was exercised, so as to get the best results commensurate with the amount ex­pended. Before he sat down he wished to ask the Minister a question with regard tu the new school at Proserpine. He understood that the Government had agreed to the school being es­tablished, bnt that a difficulty had arisen in connection with the title. He wisned to know whether all difficulties had been overcome in con­nection with the matter.

TheSECRJ!jTARY FOR AGRICULTURE: With regard to the erection of the Proserpine school, the delay bad heen caused by the difficulty of the transfer. That difficulty was the result of the school committee not giving the correct names. Certain names were inserted in the memorandum of transfer, and it h"d been found Necessary to correct them ; otherwise everything had been arranged for pushing the building ahead as soon as fund.s were available. \Vith regard to t.he matter dealt with by the hon. member for Balonne, the department, up to the present, had made certain inquiries. Mr. ,Johnston had travelled for twelve months over a portion of the Western country, &nd had done certain work. He had been nut there to oee the lay of the ground, so to speak, and arrangements have been made by which ce"tain persons-member,, of families or fnends, he presumed-would teach the children requiring instruction. There appeared to be 113 who had been visite.d by ::\Ir. J ohnston, and forty-three persons who would act as teachers had be m found. The department proposed to send JY1r, .Tobnston round shortly, and keep him travelling, so as to ascertain how br the pro­vision of books and the promises made in connec­tion wich the system were carried out.

Mr. KERH: Is it intended to extend that system to other districts?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: At present he was informed it was not the inten­tion of the department to multiply the number of teachers or itinerant teachers. The intention at pre.,ent was to ascertain the result of what had been alreadv done. The hon. member for Fassifern, ::\lr. Thorn, dealt with the necessity

for increasing the pay for male and female teachers, and more particularly the necessity of assimilating the rates paid to the females with the higher rates paid to the males. Last year a considerable increase took !'lace in the salaries which were paid to females, and so far a., he knew that increase had been satisfactory. \Vith regard to assimilating rates there was no inten­tion to disturb the arrangement:··· which had been come to hitherto. \Vhatever mig-ht be the reason, in other countries as well as here, in Europe and in the United States, the dispari\y between the rates paid to ruales and females existed. These were the rate··· paid :-Male assistant teachers, class 1, division 1, £262 per annum; the next class, £242; then, £222; then, £202, until they came to the lowest paid a'sist1tnt teacher, who was paid £102 per annum. \Vith regard to females, commencing at the 1, • west paid, she got £72 per annum, and the highest paid female assistant got £216 per annum. \Vith regard to pupil-teachers, the males taken on probation got £30, and the females £12 per annum. As soon as the male pupil-teacher passed an examination, he got £40 per year; and then he got £45, £55, and £70 a year, while the female got £20, £25, £35, and £50 a year. These were the rates paid, and he was under the impression that they were considerably in excess of what the teachers would be able to obtain outside the department. However, whether the wages were high or low, he might say with regard to female teachers that it was not intended at the present time to alter the rate". \Vith regard to the one-fifth contri­bution, he had already dealt with that. He had no doubt that when the money was provided the ;\finister in charge of the department would carry out the recommendation which had been made by the Legislative Assembly, but at the present time money "as somewhat scarce, and if the complaints of delay in <·.1rrying- out works under the old conditions were to be remedied it was evident that something would have to be done to provide a larger vote. \Vith regard to school works having been stopped, be might say that during the last five months the rate of expenditure had been greater t.han it had been for two or three years previously. They had spent about £13,000 in the last five months. A good deal had been said hy the hon. member for Flinders, Mr. Airey, and the hon. member for Toowoomba, 1\Ir. Tolmie, and they had both made very unfavourable comparisons between the system in vogue here and that in the other States. He did not think that those comparisons were fair, nor did he tbink tbat this State had any reason to fear comparison with the other States, always provided that the com­parison was a fair one. At the close of 1899 we had 412 State schools, 4G9 provisional schools, and three special schools, or a total of i'\84 schools. At the end of the year 1900, there were in operation 428 State schools, 479 provieional schools ann four special schools, or a total of 911 echool.~. There were twenty­nine more schools at the end of 1900 than there were at the end of 1899. In 1900 thf· net enrol­ment was 95,310, or an increase of 3,1(!0 on the net enrolmeut of 1899. That was a point which was not mentioned by the hon. member for Flinders when he was making his comparh·on. 'With regard to the net enrolment, the State of Qneensland occupied the very first rank. Coghl~n, for 1900, gave the net enrolment in New South Wales as 17'3!; Victoria, 18·4;,; Queensland, 19-31; Scuth Australia, 16'()4; vVestern Australia, 8·33; and Tasmania, 9·84. In that respect Queensland was at the top of the tree, for there was a larger proportion of children going to school in the colony of Queens­land in proportion to population than in any

2196 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

other State in the Commonwealth. The hon. member for Flinders did not think it worth while to quote all these figures. He (Mr. Dalrymple) wanted to put forward the truth on behalf of the department and the State. Another gratifyinf' feature was that the average daily attendance in 1900 was 69,285, being an increase of G,152 on the average daily attendance for 189() ; and the number of children not attending any school was 1, 102-les' by cl15 than in 1899. The number of children not attending sixty days in each half-year was­Half-year ending June, 9,033 ; half-year ending December, 7,65-!. Compared with 1899, thc,e numbers showed a decre:tse of 1, 781 in the first half-year and 1,723 in the second half-year. It appeared that not only were more children going to school, but the attendance had been more regular; and that should be very gmtifying to hon. members. vVhen the hon. member for Flinders read out figures showing the net cost to this State of education per head he did not quote the cost of all the other colonies.

Mr. AIREY: I said Queensland was amongst the lowest.

The SIWRETARYFOR AGRICULTURE: In New South vVales the net cost per head was .£4 Ss. 2d. ; in Victoria, £4 12s. ; in ~Western Australia, £'11Gs. ; in queenR!and, £3 14s. lld. ; in South Australia, £3 9s. 3d. ; in Tasmania, .£3 ls., thus showing that any rate there were two States where the cost was less than that of Queensland-namely, South Australia and Tas­mania.

Mr. AIREY: There is only one in Australia below Queensland. That is what I sttid.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTURE: vV as not Tasmania a portion of the Common­wealth? The hon. member seemed to be ex­ceedingly anxious to make out a bad case against Queensland, and he (Mr. Dalrymple) was going to give the public an opportunity of judging the facts. The hon. member for l<'lin­ders did not quote this from "Coghlan"-

Although prim~try instruction is free in Victoria, South Australia, \.Vestern Australia, and New Zealand, yet Q.ueenslancl is the only colony where no fees were recei,·ed inl899.

Mr. AIREY: vVe charge a proportion for build­ings; they don't in New South \Vales.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The hon. member did not mention that no fees were exacted here ; neither did he refer to the extravagance of New South \Vales and Victoria, which had necessitated this expenditure being cut down there. Coghlan further said-

In all the colonies, with t.he exception of Victoria, there has been a ste~tdy increase in the number of State school«:, during the past few years. In Victoria. the reverse has been the case, for since 1891 the number in operation has decreased from 2,233 to 1,892. This is the result of a schen1e of retrenchment initiated at that time, by which there has been an amalgamation of schools in large centres of population, and in other districts schoolS have been closed, the pupils conveyed to other institutions at the cost of the State.

And so on. The hon. member showed that our expenditure in certain directions had been less than in Victoria; but it did not follow that Vic­toria's expenJiture had been wise, for there a drastic system of retrenchment was rendered neces,ary. In New South Wales the practice was to charge the cost of new ochools to loan, while in Queensland it was almost invariably charged to revenue. He wished to bring forward figures and facts to show both sides of the ques­tion. He would conclude by saying that Queens­land was a larger colony than New South ·wales and Victoria put together, and in such a large colony it was very difficult to administer the education law. In spite of all that, Queensland was ahead of the other colonies in many ways.

Mr. GIVJ<JNS: What about the report of the chief inspector

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: While giving full credit to the general inspector for zeal, sincerity, and ability, he fancied that that

gentleman must necessarily look at [7'30 p.m.] theoe mattero as an expert. Mr.

Ewart had been some thirty-five years in the department, and having regard to the accumulated experience of those years, he fancied that these matterC< loomed larger in his mind than they would in the mind of one who had been administering the department for twelve months. \Vhat JYir. Ewart meant, he took it, was that there was a great difficnlty in getting rid of teachers, not necessarily through any fault on the r:art of the department or of those who were officially his superiore, but because, although the inspectors knew that a teacher drank, it was extremely difficult to bring forward proof of the fact to the satisfaction of the Public Service Boo~rd.

Mr. GrVENS: The general inspector says that in snn1e cases it, is a ~~scandaL" Th~eSECRETARYFOR AGRICULTURE:

If a man drank or misbehaved himself it was a scandal. At anv rate hon. n,embers knew how difficult it was· to get rid of anybody. Corn­plaints might be made in an indirect way, but the moment it became a question of an officer le:tving, the people who complained said they did not like to turn a man out of a billet, especially if he had a wife and family, and there was the greatest reluctance to come forward and testify to the facts. And if it were proposed to remove an officer, his friends would endE'avour by petition or otherwise to induce the depart­ment not to dismiss or disrate the officer concerned. He had a vivid recollection that some years ago when he was at the head of the Department of Public Instruction, and a lady teacher was disrated on the report of one of the inspectors, his action was warmly resented in the Hc>use, though he had simply acted on the advice of the inspector. Since that time the lady, whose name it was not necessary to men­tion, was put at the head of another school, and the inspector in that district came to exactly the same conclusion-namely, that, however estimable a lady she might be, in th><t P'~rticular position she was not doing justice to the children. He thought he was justified in saying that on one or two occasions which he could mention, the Public Service Board simply recommended that certain officers should be transferTed when they richly deserved to be disrniosed. He took it that \Yhat Mr. Ewart wa'- referring to wes the difficnlty which everybody knew was likely to be e'l:perienced if the d0partment endeavuured to dispense with the services of an officer, as there were many people who would instantly, from kindheartedness and sympathy, come forward and petition or use some kind of influence to get back into office the person who had been dismissed. Members of P.rliament in their own experience must have been repeatedly called upon to go to this or that department and solicit that someone who was in danger of losing his position from some cause m· another should be retained. That had been his experi­ence, but he could say where members of Parliament had intP.rviewed him on such matters, and he had put the paper,; before them, they had in nine cases out of ten expressed themselves satisfied with the action o£ the :iepartment. Still, everybody had not the opportunity of going to the Minister. That there was "' diffi­culty in getting rid of teachers w"s perfectly true. First of all, they could not get the neces­sary evidence as nobody would testify.

Mr. GrvENS: Then why does the inspector make such a report as this?

Supply. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2197

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : He had spoken with the general inspector on the su~ject, and asked him whv he had thought fit to mclude these statement;, in his report, which had been referred to by the hon. m ern ber for CairnH. The general inspector had told him that what he really meant was that it wa, very difficult to get at the facts in such a way as would sati~fy a iudicml tribunal like the Public Servi?e Board. A lady teacher might be rather hard m her manner, or a bit of a martinet in the execution of her duties, or she might have the knack of fighting with all or the greater number of the school teachers under her, but if they took her to task for that it would be very difficult to get :tnyone to come forward and testify to the facts, and if the Minister should remove her to another position on account of these things then there would be the greatest indignatiOn mani­fested by a large number of people.

Mr. GrvENH : The inspector says in this report that the de1,:crtment had exercised "long patience and much forbearance."

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The inspector said the department could not without much effort get rid of a man \Vell known to be a ~candal in his neighbour­hood till it is clearly shown that he is a sot.

That was quite right, It was perfectly true because although he wa" known in one way t~ be a scandal, they could not get evidence to es­tablisil the het-evidence which would satisfy a court of justice-and if the department took action on any less· evidence, a number of veople would instantly take the part of the teacher, and champion his canoe. He had known a public scandal in Brisbane which existed for a very long- time, until ulti­mately people came forward and complained; but there was Yery great ditHculty in getting rid of the individual. Supvosing a teacher was a man respecter! by all, and had a wife and family, !'n~ ~e suddenly took to dri~lk, it was a very mvidwu•• task to prove Jus misbehaviour. Although the puhlic would talk about it a1,d say "this man ought to be removf'd," no one ~ould ,take upon himself the odium of complain­Jug. t:;uppo~nng there was a case of a nagging womal", who would come forward and allege that she was a nagger? How many people were there who would not rather put up with it than make a formal charge? If the committee was appointed to find out 'the truth of the charge she would not nag before the committee. '

Mr. Gn·Exs: Read what he sav8 further on-ungrammaticalletters. -

_The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: No doubt some of them were ungrammatical and it was very difficult to speak grammatically: If the hon. member for Cairns made a speech some people w:::mld say a p~;rtion nf it was nu­grammatical, and he could g"et som<' school· teachers to come in and honesth· differ from them, and say it was not ungntmmatical at all. At any rate, there was not much in the matter one way or the other, except that it was of Importance that the teachero, in their corres­pond:nce, should. observe a great deal of care ; that m deahng with the children thPmselves thev should get into the habit of doing what wa"s right, and under all circumstances set a good example.

HoN. E. B. FORREST: The general in­spector should feel very much indebted to the hem. gentleman for vindicating him in the way he had done. It was not what Mr. Ewart thought, but what the public thought of his report; and he ventured to sav there waH not a man WhO bad read the report who had not COmP

to the conclusion that it cast a stigma on the whole staff. \Vhether it was meant or not, was not the point. They had had the Minister's view of Mr. Ewart's report, and he would now like to read what might be considered the view of the department to a large extent, and the view of the public. He had in his hand the Ed1wation Office Ga.oette f,r August last, in which was an article dealing with the gener:.;l inspector's report. It was >< tempen,te article, concise in itR forrn~ and covered the ground very nicely. He would read a ]Jortion of it-

'fhis year we give precedence, in our annual criticism of the report of the department, to the geueral inspec­tor's contnbution to it. and for a reason which will be sufficiently obvious. He throvn; a public stigma on a portion of the profession, more or less atfecting the whole of it, 1vhich, in d1aracter and t'orm, is almost unparalleled in sueh documents, and whieh, no donbt, is intended to arrest. forcibly, public anfl professional comment and consideration. He says-

Then they quoted that portion of the report to which exception had been taken and which had been read by the hon. member for Cairns, and went on to say-

When such a hjgh official "'0 reveals his sen~c of almost unbearable irritation a.t allE'~''d misconduct, be must mean one or both of two thing~. First, that the misconduct is SQ grievou~ and \Videspreacl that. not­with.,tancling the enormous disciplinary and punitive powers the depa1 tment pos..,esse;~, it has pa~sed beyontl its control or remedy. :Second. that the misconduct is of such a nature as to call forth the unil1UC form of a public protest, branding certain teachers with public shame. And thi.:., as the only means by which he can prevent this corrupt leaven from further corrni>ting or endangering the morals of the pupils entrusted to their charge. ·we decline to believe that the morale of the profession has so grievously degenerated as to call for either the comment or the form of it, or of the intere11CCS t!iat rnu~t he publicly dra\\'ll from it. \Ve decline to lJelieve this for the reason that, times out of number, the various district inspectors, who are i.n much closer and more frequent personal touch with the teachers than the general inspector ib-, have expressed themselves in tenus of the most generous appreciation of the prevailing skilful service and un~werving loynlty in the disch,1rge of the high dntk"S and trust reposed in onr school stntl's. In tlle face of these tributes from officers not lc~s::; qualiticd to judge than the general inspector himself, we feel bound to believe that his j'Jdgmentandscn~e of propor­tion have been overborne by a som8wbat hasty irrita­tion at the too-well-remembered clelinquencieb of the fmv of a certain cla:-s of men, who are to be found occasionally in every service, and in every public department in the world. But a public document should never he the vehicle of hot or vituperatlve irri­tation. In the pnblic service, as relating to its ser­vants, the expression of the opinion of the "heads " should possess all the dignity and calmness which are the characteristic and strength oE the judgments of our judicial tribunals.

The general inspector has sharpened a weapon which may turn out to be double edged. If political influence has shielded proved delinquents. the questwn is, why ha Ye the officials yielded to it~ Pt•i;~u1 ftu.:it>, lt is charged that there is corruption without, and the answer is, that there is weakn("SS within. It is revolt­ing to be asked to believe that MinisterR or members of llarllamenL have combined to compel the department to hear with confirmed sots or viragoe, And even if the most antoaatic .:\linister should insist on the sicle of the sots or Yiragoes, surely tbe general inspector is triple-armed in his counter resistance. \Yllat would be thought if u, commander-in-chief shielded traitors in battle, and, for insisting on pnnishment., dismissed the generals \V hose plans were bauU;erl? ~o such corrupt 'veal{ness \vould be tolerated on mi.litary atl'airs. and we decline to believe 1t exists in th0 administration of an Education Department.

But another question arises. Is the general inspector ultimately re1iponsible ~ ~ominally, he is the profes­sional" chief of the staff." But his power is subject to a double check-that of the Fnder Secretary ftlld the :i\1inister. lt has never yet been definrrl who is ulti­mately responsible [or the efficiency and discipline of the staff. The general inspector can only "recom­mend," and his recommendations must filter thl'ough the Under Secretary to the :\iinister. As a matter of

2198 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl,y.

fact, his recommendations are .often not accepted. and then, like Pilate, he can only wash his hands. Tbere is not a teacher in the serYice who can say on \Vhich of the t\VO oflicials ultimate responsibility on any matter rests l~verything seems to be in a perpetual sec-saw. This dual responsibility, and its conse.:_tuent facility for shirking ret~ponsibility, is probably accountable for mo~t of the friction and indecision in the depart.mental working.

In connection with this article one might ask one or two questions. First of all, was it a fact that mis:!onduct was FO grievous and wide-spread that notwithstanding the enormous disciplinary powers of the department it had passed beyond its control? He could not believe that such a thing was po,sible. Again, wes the misconduct of such a nature as to eaU forth the unique form of a public protest branding certain teachers with public shame?

Mr. GrvE~S: I think we ought to know how far the report is true.

HoN. E. B. :FORREST : Quite so. The third question was this : \V as it a fact that some of them when brought to task were ahle to shield themsehes by political influence? Then, coming to the fin·sh up of the article, which dealt with the dual responsihlity, who was really respon­sible in this departmPnt? He could not conceive it P"'sible that a thing like this could not be dealt with. In any other rlepartment, it would be made shnrt '''ork of hy the head of thw depart­ment ; and if there bad been a firm hand at the head of thP Educati, n Department we should not hR ve her>rd a word of t.his. He could not say that he was on p.trticularly friendly terms with either the U uder Secret"ry or th~ general inspector, but he acknowledged that. they had done extraordinarily g-ood work in the p·1st. He was on a, cmnmission that sa.t in 1888, when the department wes overhauled, and from what he s:.tw of the department then, he was the more sorry now that the general inspector should have committed himself as he had done in this report. It did not appear to him that this department had been managed with anything like common sense in some respects. Pettifogging things cnpped up from time to time, and as an in­stance, he would refer to what appeared in the Education O,(lice Gctzette for November, 1901. 'rhis was official. Here was something that ap~eared in the notices under the heading "Correspondence for Teachers"-

'fhe pcnmanRhip and punctuation of letters forwarded to this office arc often detective. ThP. :Ylinister desires it to be intimated that teachers who have allowed them­selves to fall into habits of carelessnes~ mnst give more heed to punctuation and to the quality of their penman­ship. Correspondents who fail in these respects may l:Je called npon to write their letters a second time.

Could anyone believe that such a childish, stupid notice as this would appe><r? It was the way schoolboys were dealt with. If it had been stated in the nutice that correspondents would be flozgecl nne could understand it, but the idea of talking t·> teachers of public schools in that way was C'llltem!Jtible, and was only on a par with the style of writing in the general impec· tor's report. The proper thing for the C\Iinister to have done would have been to have torn up that report and put it into the waste-paper basket, and intimated to the general inspector that when he could write a proper report it would be published and not till then. To aiiow a report like that to go forth to the world in the annual rpport. of the department was a gross oversight on the part of the :\1inister.

Mr. BRO\VNE wished to refer to the agita­tion going on with respect to Bible reading in St,;te school8, and in connection with that matter he wished to refer to certain answers given to qnestions asked by him, bec><use it appeared that they were not straightforward

an•wers at. all. On 25th October, as would be seen in "Votes and Proceedings," he a,kea the Premier the following question-

1. Has he ::;een the statements in the Press that a plebiscite is to be taken in Rix :6l of the yrinCipal towns of this Sta.te on the question of Bible-reading in State schoolR ?

2. Is such plebiscite to be taken under his autho­rity?

a. If so, why is such plebiscite not take11 all over the State 1

4. Is it true. as stated. that the Premier ha!; agreed to abide by the result of a plebiscite on this question taken in six principal towns only?

The answer to that seemed very straightforward. It was-

' either the Department of Public Instruetion nor myself have any knowledge of the proposed plebiscite on the subject referred to. He (Mr. Browne) expected a straightforward answer, and when he was tolcl that nuthing of

the sort was being done, he was [8 p.m.] very much surprised afterwards to

receive a number of letters from people who were actively engaged in taking the referendnm, stating that they were doing it under the expres" authority of the Premier of the colony. He had a copy of the circular issued by the B.ible m State Schools League to their canvassers. It contained nine different instruc­tion,, but he would not read the whole lot. He would only quote clause 8, which dee~lt with the question he was now referring to. It wets-

Remember. that thic.: referendum is of the utmost impo1·tance to the future welfare of Qneen8land. If it is successful, the Premit r has promi..,ed to be guided by the wishes of the majority of tbe parents in this matter. At the time he (Mr. Browne) asked that ques­tion he did not know that the matter was attracting so much attention. Amongst other thingtJ he saw, in the Croydon .1l!Iininy i-Yews, a letter in which the correspondent took the same view as he did, stating that Mr. Browne, the member for Croydon, on a certain date had asked a question, and Mr. Philp had replied that neither he nor anybody dse knew anything about any plebiscite. Since then he had seen in the North Queensland Register what seemed to him a very extraordinary letter, signed by the Rev. Joseph Pike, hon. secretary of the Xorth Queensland Referendnm Committee. Mr. Pike was apparently acting as an apologist and giving some explanation of that answer which had been given by the Premier to him (Mr. Browne). ;He did not know that be had ever sepn such a thmg bef,Jre as a gentleman outsirle the House explain­ing an utterance of the Premier, and it was rather important that they bhnuld know when it came to answers given to questions in the House whether those answers were exactly corrector not, and if they were not correct who was to blame. The N01·th Queensland Registo· of 18th November contained the letter to which he had referred. It w:ts addressed to the editor, and stated-

Sir,-Rome few days ago yon lnthlisherl in your "Hac kings from I-IrnnoNl" colnmn a report of an answe-r given by the Premier (Hon. R. Philp1 to a ques­tion put by \L Browne in the Legislath e A:-:'3ernbly. V\'. Browne's question was: " Has the Premier seen a statement in the Pre~s that a plebiseite is to be taken in six of the prmcipal towns of this State on the ques­tion of Bible reading in the State schools~ Is such a plebiscite tn be taken nnder his authority~ If so, why is ~uch a plebiscite not taken all over the State:~ Is it true, as stated, that the Premier has agreE:d to abide by the result of a. plebiseiw on this question taken in six towns onlv ?" rrhe PH,;illif'l' replied: ".X either the Department Of Publir. Inst,ruction nor myself have any knowledge of a proposed plebiscite on ~hf• subject re­ferred t0." In view of the fact that a plebiscite is now being taken on the subject, I should like to explain what I know of the meaning of ~1r. Philp's answer. The Secreb:ry of the Bible in State SC'hools Lengue in Brisbane is managing the plebiscite. and writing to me under date 5th Xovember, be says, "'fbe Premier him-

Supply. [3 DECEMBER.] Suppl_y. 2199

~elf is in :::\Ielbnurnc, bnt I haxe interviewed the Actin§! Premim·, ::Hr. n,ntleclge, who informii< Jlle that the answer refers stricti~· to the qn£.5tion asked. The Gover~me~t has no knowledge of a pkbiscite being taken m s1x towns." The plebiscite is, in fact, bemg taken in every town in Queensland, wherevrr there is a :-;tate or provisional sehool. Committees are at wo1·k, and every parent or guardian "\Yho has a ehild. attend­ing a State-aicled sclwo1 will have an opportunity of voting '·Yes'' or "Xo." This plebiscite is b· ing taken by pcrmis~ion of the (~oYernment., a fact which is Fitated on the referenUnm papers put be­fore the voters. In proof of that I beg :.pace to ·-tnotc f1·om the an·" wcr given b,- the Secretary for Public Inst1·uction to a (tuestion aSked recently iri the Legislative Council by the Hon. A. H. BarloW : ·' By -directivu of the Secret~.ry tor Public Instruction, the Hon. ,T. G. Drake, a notice :was inserted in the Erlucation Of/ice Gn:,?tte for.January of the t.mrrP-nt year, directing the head tf'aehers of all S1 ·hoois-~tate and provi.-;ional­under the ''epn.rtmcnt of Public Ir:~tructi')n to de'~. patch to the ReY. G. H. Frodsham. ::\LA., Diocesan Registry, George street, Brisbane, a complete list of the names -and a.cldresses of parents or gnawlians of scholars attending their schools. In the Ed1 1r·1Ltion Office G.':'etf:! of 1 he follow:ng month. l!-,ebrnarv a further notice was inserted to the effect that 1i~ad te~t.chel'S mlght addres~ the lists to the Fnder Secretarv for Public Instruction if they prcf;•rred to do sO. In aecorclance with the second n0tice. many lists; of names and addresses were s.ent by teachers to the Department nf Public Instruction. and were sub!'Oequently forwarded to J.fr. Frortsham." These are the li~ts npon which the referendlllll is now being taken. rrhe ex lent to which the Premier has committed himself ma.v be seen hv the fact that in September, 1900, a large <h;pntation "·aited upon him in his rooms at the 1're::ti4nry. Brisbane. for the pnrpof'e of bringing before him the '\Vhoie question of re1ig1ous instruetion in schools. In his rrply tbe Premier showed plninly that he was in sympathy. with the main object of the deputation. He also said thnt he thought the question ot' intro:lucing selectecl Bible lessons should be submitted to the parents of the children, and he bound himseU to be gni.d<:cl in his action by the resnlt. After WRiting some time for the ·Government to take the nece.;;sary steps, the Bible in State Schools Lea.guc tnok the m~tter in hand. rrhe Government has co-operated in the WRY I have described.

As he said before, he was not concerned, and h~d no.i: the slig-htRst in~ention of initiating any 'd1scusswn ns to the adv1sableness or otherwi."e of introducin.g Bible reading in our Stat~ schools. He took lt th~t, whatever might be the result of this plebiscite or rPfercnclt;m, this Govern. ment, ~r a!1Y Governme~t, before they made any alteratiOn m th~ Educatwn Ac~, would bring the matter befom the House, and there would be prop<>r time for discussing the advisability or not of attermg· the system, whether they were in .favour of it or otherwise. \Vhat he brought this matter forward for was for th.~ purpose of ascertaining whether, when a member a,ked a question in a!l fairnes' and honesty, he was to get a straightforward an~Swer? I-Ie was not in the hauit of asking foolish question,,. He aske.d questions for. the purpose of getting infor­matlOn, and when first of all thev were told that neither the Department of Ptiblic Instruction nor the Prem;er had any knowledge of any plebisc!te being. taken, and they afterwards found 1t stated m a cinular sent round for the purpose of taking the plebiscite that the Premier had promiserl to be "'Uided by the wishes of the majority of the parents in the matter, and they had the secretary of the North {lu.ee;nsland branch of the league ge~ting up and wn~mg a long lettet', asasortofapolngtst, certainly takmg some of the blame off the Premier and putting io on to the A~h>rney-General, they were forced to the conclusiOn that either the hnn. gentleman who gave that answer was stating distinctly what was not true, or else the gentle­men who were at the head of the Bible in State t:lchools League in their circular, or the reverend gentleman who had written this letter were not saying what was true. He had br~nght this matter up because he would like to hear the Premier say which was correct.

The PREMIER : \Vhen the question was asked him in the House he handed it over to the Department of Education, and he believed the an,wers given were correct, hut he would go back to a d0putation he had received last year.

Mr. BROWNE: Then this circular is wrong.

The PREMIER; He had not seen the paper at all. About fifteen month" ago he received a deputation from nearly all the clergymen about Brisbane asking him to consider the question of introducing the Bible into State schools. vVith­ont referring to the Press, he could not exactly say what his answer was, but he thought t,hat if a referendum were taken among the parents of the children that that would be sufficient to guide him in thP matter, bnt if any alteration was ma,de i!l the Educ11tion Act it would have to come l1efore this House. After that deput>ttion, Mr. Frodsham wrote to the 8Pcrehry for Public Instruction, dated the 5th November, as follows:-

Referring you to the Premier's reply to a deputation frem lhis league which waited upon him on 17th September, I shall be grateful if ~·on will supply to me as speedily as is convr,nicnt a Ust of the names and addresses of the parents of the children attending the State schools of the colony'. H would also materially a....::sist me in my work if you could let me have an idea when the information 1·eqnired would be likct< to be ready.

Then, on the 26th November, the following reply waR sent:-

I have the honour, by direction of the Secretary for Public Instruetion. to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 5th instant, and to inform you that after very careful consideration the ::\Iinister 11erccivts that the labour involved in compiling a list of thenamP"- and addressPs of all the parents of children attending the State schools of the c1lonY would tax the resources of the department to an enorinous extent. The number of parents will probably be not less than 4{),000, and the number of schools is about 950. To collect the infor­mation, and to classify and arran~eit, wonlLl involve the making of a large temporary addition to the staff, with accompanying expen~m, which. under the preRent cir­cumstances, the }finister is reluctant to incur

'rhe )Iinister fl-uggpsts that the local branches of your league make application to th\' head teaebers of the several schools for the information 1hey require, in which ca;:;e he will instruct the head teachers through the Education O.Dic~ Ga.ette to give every assistance in their power to the local branche-::; of the lea;; ne in ob­taining the desired information.

Please to let me know at your early conyenience whether the league approves of the above sugge~tion, so that the notice to the head teachers may a.ppear 111 the ne'\ tissue of the Ga,:ette.

Again on the 5th December the following letter was written-

SIR,-I have the honour, by dil·action of the Secre­tary for Public Inst1·nction, to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 6th instant, and in reply to inform You that the head teachers of State schools will he insti·ncted through the January number of the Erlncatio.,_ Office Gazette to furnish to you a complete list of the names and addresses of parents and guardians of Sl!holars attending- the schools.-the infor­mation ta be despatched not later than the 31st January, 1901. Then the list of the names and addresses of the parents was given.

J\Ir. BROW:\"E : For special purposes. The PREMIER : Y cs, for special purposes ;

but neither had he nor the department, he believed, ever seen what the hon. member had quoted. They simply got the name.; and addresses of the parents.

?\Ir. AIREY : They called that ''the sanction of the Government."

The PREMIER: '\Veil, that was all the sanction they got.

Mr. GIVENS: Then the Rev. Mr. Pike is telling lies?

The PREMIER: He did not think Mr . .Pike was telling lies. He did not remember >eeing this notice at all, and hf1 bad only .•een one of

2200 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.J Supply.

those ballot· papers from Win ton the other day. He had no hesitation in saying that the Bible should be read in St.,te schools ; but it was not with his direct sanction that this notice was sent out. He thought there could be no objection to the names and addre''<es of the parents of the children being furnished, and if the opinion of the parents of the children was to be taken, he hoped that this House would be guided by that.

JYir. CURTIS : You gave no special sanction. 'fhe PREMIER: No; he had given no sr,ecial

sanction, but he did not see how the department could object to give assistance to find out the feelings of parents on the subject.

The A'J.'TORNEY·GENERAL (Hon. A. Rutledge, Jl[amnoct) : As he understood that his name had been dragged into this discussion, he rose to so,y that he had nothing to do with any arrangement that. had been made by anybody with regard to this matter. The first he had heard of any movement of the kind, except what he bad seen in the Press, was about a fort­night ago, when the gentleman who was in charge of the matter on behalf of the league informed him what he was doing and what the league was doing in the matter, and he then gave it as his private opinion that even if the majority of the parents at the children wished what was asked for, that that would not be a sufficient reason why the Government should propose that o,ny change should be made in the present Educ'­ti•m Act. He told that gentleman that he thougbt that if any referendum was taken it should be a referendum to the whole of the electors of the colony.

HONOURABLE ])1EiiiBEI\S: Hear, hear! The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: He might

say that while he was Acting Premier, during the Premier's absence, he \Va.; never waited upon by anyone and he had never e" pressed his opinion either by wad or in writing one way or the other.

Mr. BRO\VNE said he was quite prepared to take the hon. member's stMement. Hon. mem­bers had heard what he had read from :'vir. Pike's letter, where he distinctly stated that the Attorney-General gave that reason in answer to the question put to him.

The ATTOI\XEY- GENERAL: It is a most improper and untrutbful statement-I don't care who it comes from.

Mr. BRO\VNE was very glad to hear thehon. gentlem:m so,y that. Then, with regard to the Premier's statement, be said most ::listinctly that the :Education Department had made a mis­statement to this House. \Vhen he asked a question on the subject the answer given by the :Premier was that-

:Xeither the Department of Public Instruction nor myself have any knmvledge of a proposed plebiscite on the subject refcn·,"d to. The correspondence that took place with the department asking for facilities to obtain the addresses of the children showed that months before be a'ked his que,tions it was propt'oed to take the plebiscite. \Vhen an bon. member asked a fair question he shonld get a straight­forward answer, and he thought he had received such a.n answer until he had received a number of comrnunic ttions on the subject and saw the statement which appeared in a Northern news­paper. The answer he had quoted ahowed that as far as the department were cnncerned they had not given a correct statement in answer to his question.

The PHEJ\IIER: He did not draw the same conclusion from the facts as the hon. member. If the department had given the names they might have known that the plebiscite was going on, but they did not. vVhat the hon. member asked was if they were aware that a plebiscite was to be taken in six of the principal towns of

the colony, and the answer given was perfectly correct. If the hon. member had asked whether any correspondence had taken place on this question a different answer would P';'~bably h~ve been given; but he asked. a. spemfic qu.estwn with regard to six of the prmc1pal towns m the colony, and the answer give~ was.stnctly c?rrect. There was no direct sanctwn g1ven for cakmg the plebiscite, either hy the department or by the Premier.

Mr. BROvVNE: The question he asked was­Has he seen the statements in the Press that a

plebiscite is to be taken in six of the l_)rincipal towns of thi~ State on the <1uestion of Bible-reading in State schools r To that the bon. aentleman could ha,·e answered, "}';' o I have not seen it in the Press." Then he fo~·ther asked-

Is it true, as stated, that the I>remier ha.s agree~ to abide by the result of a plebisc:itc on tlns llnestwn taken in '3iX principal towns only~ The answer to that was that neither the depart­ment nor the Premier had rmy knowledge of a proposed plebiscite. Xothin,; could be more plain and distil" t h 'n that. the department ancl the Premier d•,nied any knowledge of the matter, and having reeeived that answer he dJd not trouble himself any fmther about the matte,r.

The SECHETARYFOR AGRICULTUR:E: The department were quite bAtisfied with the an~wer tbt-y gan:', which was per~ectly c0rrect. (Opposition laughter.) The qnestwn w::s-

1-Ias he see-:.1 the statements in tbe Pre:-:~ that a plcbb:cite is to be taken in six of the principal tow~s of tl1is State on the uucstion of Bible-1·eading in State schools? That miryht involve on the part of the person who ans~vered the question that he n1ight have a general idea that somebody was going to take a nlebiscite smnewhere, but \vhether he was ~ontliciently acquainted with the facts to know that the t'lebiscite was proposed to be taken m six of the principal towns of the State was another matte!·. The leader of tho Oppo.•ition asked a 'pe,cific question as to whe.tber. a plebis­cite was pr8posed to be taken 111 six of the principal town;; of this State, and the answer be received was perfectly correct. All the depart­ment knew was that they had been asked for permission to obtain the addresses of the parents of the children, which they gave, and he con­tended that the, reply given wa~ perf~ctly. justi­fied. Had thev answered thH questwn m the atfirmative the;, must have hact information of their own kno'wledge that it was. pr.oposed to take thi" plebiscite in six of the prmcll,al towns of the colony on a certain subject, and they had not that knnwltdge.

Mr. TUHLEY (Brisuane South): Hon. mem­bers need not expect to get definite answers on anv que;;t:ons unless it was satisfactory t" the Minister to give such an~wers. On the 14th August he asked the Premu·r-

1. Has any instruction or reqne-.t been sent from the Department V of Publie Instruction to the school teachers in t11e Brisbane district, or an.', other part. of Queens­I...tnG, asking them to reqUest tbe chrldren attending the schools to brin;; money to go to a fund for the erection of a statue to the Jate Queen Yictoria?

:::. If not, has it come to the kno\vledge of the depart­ment that such action is being taken il

3. Does the :;)finister approve of such being done F

The answer was-1. The l.Iiuister did approve of an opportunity being

O'in,r• to the teachers and pupils ot schools under the department to subscribe towards a fund for the erection of a statue to the late Queen Yictoriu.; the maximum subscription from any one pupil not to exceed one shilling.

2. Yes. :3. Yes.

He most decidedly objected to the public sch~ols 0f the colony being made a sort of collectmg

Supply. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2201

ground for everything which came along. He objected to it at the time it was done for the patriotic fund, and he objected to it in the case of this particular fund, as he would oLject to it for all funds. He would never allow a child of his going to a public school of the colony to make a beggar of himself going round and cadging money from neighbours or anybody else with the object of taking it to the school for any such purposes. That was what was being done in Queensland, and he decidedly objected to any Minister or any Government sanctioning such a thing. The first knowledge he had of this matter was when a child of his came home and said, "I want some money." He asked her what for. She said, "Oh, all the children are being asked by the teacher to take money to the school for the purpose of erecting a statue to the late Queen." He said "I decline to give you any money to take to the school." The child went back and told the teacher. The teacher said to the child that she expected all the chil­dren to bring money towards this fund. 'When the child reported it to him he said, "I do not intend to give you any money to take to the school, and you can take th ~t reply back to the teacher." The result of this kind of thing was that in dozens of the schools throughout the cobny children brought money in cases where, he was perfectly satisfied, their parents could ill-affurd to give it, and there was dissension in the schools among children who brought money and those who did not. It was easy enough for some persona to put their hands in their pockets and give a donation; but there were others earning perhaps 5s. a week, and others walking about the streets looking for employ­ment, and they could not afford to give any­thing. The children knew what each other brought, and the result was that there was bickering an,ong the children on account of the different positions of their parents financially. He should protest upon every possible oppor-

tunity against the State schools of [8·30 p.m.] the colony being made the medium,

with the sanction of the Govern­ment, of raising fnnos either for pat> iotic pur­poses or for the erection of statues. According to the list of subscriptions to that fund published in the Gow·ie1· of 14th November, there had been collected a total of £559. Out of that total there had been contributed by eighty schools £Gl 16s. lOd. It was never intended under the State school system of Queensland that people should be continually dunned with the object of giving money for the erection of statues. Hon. members knew very well that when childr~n were asked to take part in a mnvement of that description they threw their whole hearts into it-they did not only go to their parents and solicit subscriptions, but they went ronnd the neighbourhood where they lived, and asked people whom they mPt to contribute to the fund. Other people could do as they liked, but as far as he was personally concerned, he would decidedly object to his child making a beggar of itself to collect money for any fund whatsoever.

The A~'TORNEY-GENERAL: The children raised a noble >~mount for the Sick Children's Hospital.

Mr. TUKLEY: That was a differ~nt thing altogether, but he did not even like them collect­ing for such a fund as that.

Mr. PLUNKETT: After the exhibition they had had from the hon. gentleman in charge of the E<timates, it struck nim as being a pity that the Minister who administered the department could not be present. A number of questions had been asked and no clear answer had been given to any one of them. The hon. member for North Brisbe.ne asked some very pertinent questions, but got no satisfactory answer. He

(Mr. Plunkett) had also asked a question in refer•,nce tu the four-fifths contribution, and when they wight eJ<.pect that the Government would find the money, but he had got no answer to that. He believed that the Estimates should not be put through until questions such as that had been satisfactorily answered. It was certainly not a s<1tisfactory thing for Estimates to be put through the House by any other person than the gentleman administering the department. He, at all events, was not satisfied to let them go through in a haphazard manner. He would ask the hon. gentleman again when it was expected that the department would be able to contribute the four-fifths which had been promised?

The SECRETARY]'ORAGRIOULTURE: As far as he knew he had replied to all the q ues­tions put to him, and even if the hof!. member for North Brisbane was not sat1sfactonly rephed to, he did not think he would depend upon the hon. member for Albert to get an answer for him. 'fhe hon. member, at all event~, had not expressed his dissatisfaction with the answers which had been giYen, and he could manage very well without the assistance of the hon. member for Albert. He quite sympathised with the hon. member for Albert in his efforts to take charge of the hon. member for N ort!:J Brisbane and two or three other hon. members and obtain satis­factory replies for them. With regard to the four-fifths <Jnestion, he had replied to that several times though the hon. member might not have been present. As soon as Parliament provided the money it would be ><t the disposal of the department.

Mr. GrvENs: "Will you ask Parliament to pro­vide it?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUHE: The Government would do so. As far as the money which the department had at its disposal was concerned, it was anxious that it should be utilised to the best po,sihle advantage.

Mr. PLUNKETT said he had been deeply interested in the questions asked by the h~m. member for North Brisbane, and in the questwn which he had himself asked, but he had heard no reply to them.

Mr. LESINA (Glermont): It was evidently impossible to get any inform_ation out of ~he :Minister, and the most chantable assumptwn was that the hon. gentleman, being merely a deputy, had no knowledge of the working of the department. It was notorious that when the hon. aentleman was Secretary for Public Instruc­tion he knew very little of what went on in his department. It appeared to require a bullock team to drag information from the hon. gentle-

m~fhf· SECRETARY FOH AGRIOGLTURE : You appear to think that a calf can effect the purpose.

Mr. LBSINA: Unfortunately there were no calves, but there were pltnty of asses sitting on the other side. He did not intend to let the Bible in State school question go without further investig-ation, bno before dealing with that he would like to call attention t>J the Premier's idea of thrift as illustrated in the working of the de­partment. He found that a certain jingo paper -The E!lucation O.tfice Gazette-published the following iu October last:-

At the request of the Postmaster-General it is hereby notified that teachers should, as far as possible, purchase­postage stamps for official u:::e from official postmast~rs onlv and not fro ill licensed vendors or uroffimal offiC~"· snch as those conducted by storekeepers, etc.; as n the latter ~~ase the Post and Telegraph Depart­ment suffers a loss of the disconnt.

J nst fancy the Government losing the discount on the pnrch::~se of ld. stamps by teachers­£2 Ss. l~d. a year! As usual it was the small man who was got at-the struggling storekeeper

2202 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl_y.

and bookseller out back. The Government granted those men n licenRe to sell stamps, and then took steps ~-o diminish the sales.

The PR10ITER : This Government is not responsible. It is the Federal Postmaster­General.

Mr. LESINA: Of course the Government would not take the responsibility. They wanted to put it on to somebody else. 'fhis magnificent bit of retrenchment w"s on all-fours with the methods of huxtering Philpite statesmen. The onlv thing they were prepared to take the responsibility of was that subscription for the statue to the Queen. If it was nece"'ary to erec\ a statue to Queen Victoria, let the Govern­ment on behalf of the people erect the statue as a national monument. He did believe that the schools should be tnrned into institutions for training begga.rs. There was a, law against hegg·ing; the man who be-g-ged was sent to gaol aR a va!.{rant. Yet the Govern1nent were pre~ pared tn enc.1urage this practice in connection with the public schools ! In this ca<e the maxhnnrn subscription was tCl be u shilling, but according to the doctrine preached by the ;\finister for Railways it was like!)' to be the minimum as well as the rnaximu1n.

The SECRETARY ~'OR AGRIO!:LT!:RE: You gave 3d.

:Hr. LESINA : He gave nothing. If he gave anything at all it would be given only as a t>~x­payer to the Treasury. He would never give money to queens, kings, or princes. He did not believe in them-never had rlone. But that was apart from the question. There were 600 hoot­makers in Brisbane earning on an average frmn £1 Ss. to £110.,, a week. Say each of them had a wife and three children to support, and paid Ss. or 10s. a week for rent, that would leave him £1 a week for feeding and clothing himself and his family-that was 4s. per head per week. The amount allowed to keep a po.uper in Dunwich was 6s. 6d. a week; but a respectable bootmaker must keep his child on 4s. a week. This system of asking for subscriptions in State schools was not fair to the children or to the parents, and it exposed the children to invidious comparisons. He himself harl a child attending a State school, and if that child came to him with a subscription list he would tear it up, and send a very strong letter to the teacher. If the Government wanted to build a statue to Queen Victoria or any other dead and gone monarch let them t>~ke the money out of the public Treasury, and not send State school children about the streets cadging money. He did not think he would be oning his duty to his constituents if he did not also expret.s hi" opinion on this mock referendum which was being taken by the parsons of Queensland, who were anxious to have the Bible read in State schools, though thev had already the right to teach their ),articular brands of religion after school hr,ur8. He strongly objected to this parson movement, to which the Premier and his colleagues were practically pledged. If they wanted to change the system of State education, let them boldy grapple with the question and take a referendum of the people at the next general election. In Sou~h Australia they had dispMed of the question effectually in thio way, and recently in Victoria an over­whelming majority had cast against the teaching of the Bible in State schools. He was opposed strongly to the Bible being taught in State schools.

The CHAIRMAN: Order ! Mr. LESIN A : He believed in the free,

secular, and compulsory system of education. The parents at home had ample opportunity for teaching their children any particular form of faith that they believed in. He hoped that the electors would remember that this Govern-

ment, which consisted of men of all creeds-and some of no creed at all-were interfering in an underhand way with the present system of State school educ:>tion.

The CHAIRMAN : Order, order ! I was rather in doubt whether I should allow the dis­cussion upon the qnestion of the sanction of the referendum, as it was a matter referred to by the Premier and not by the Minister of the department" hose Estimates are now before us, and I certainly must discourage any discussion on the question of the advisableness of the Bible being read in Statu schools.

Mr. LESINA: He had no desire to discuss this particular issne, but he said that if they wanted to settle this question let them >ettle it in the open, and not allow it to be done privately by a, body of parsons who wanted the Bible t"ught in State schools, and who were backed up by the Courie1·. Another mattEr he wished to refer to was tl->e condition of the Rtate school at Clermont. The staff there consiste<l of the head teacher, two assistant female teachers, and two pupil-teachers. 'fhat gave an aver­age c,f about sixty children to each teacher. The Clermont school, according to red­tape regulations, was fully ;;taffed, but how was it possible for a mere child, only two removes from the status of a pupil, to teach a class of forty or fifty r'upils? He thought some cllange should be made in the department which allowed such a state of things. A badly organised department was responsible for many evils in the community, and if the facts were properly placed before the Government, or the hon. gentleman in charge of the depart­ment, some reforms might be ,. ffected. If not, the public would be able to conclude that what was needed was not so much a change in the department as a change in the Government which would lead to a cha,ge in the department. Two years ag-o that ochool was in a disgraceful

' state, but although he had brought [9 p.m.] the matter up on two occasions the

department . would take no action. Perhaps it was because this constituency had the temerity to return a Labour representative, and this was one of the ways in which the Govern­ment punished the free electors of districts for returning men who wAre opposed to the Govern­ment. If they could not get level with the member opposed to them they could get level with his constituency by refusing to spend money there. That was a mean and contemptible action, and only a mean, contemptible Govern­ment would take such action.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Mr. LE SIN A: There was no reformation with

regard to the furniture in this school until it was taken into the back yard and photographed, and the Qucwslander published the ph<otographe, and likened it to g()(,ds from "a second-hand Chinese junk shop " ; furniture which the in­spector bad a few months before passed as being in a good state of repair. Even then they did not opend too much. They had only spent something likfl £1,000 in putting the school in order. When the school committee were agitating for these repairs it was found necessary on 1nore t ban one occaRion to wire privately to the Minister of Education, in order to get a reply from the department. It was not until he had drawn public attentir>n to this dereliction of duty on the part of the department that any move was made at all, and that repairs were effected. Many members opposite, who simply go and shake hands with the Minister in the morning, in a twinkling of a lamb's tail they can get their work done ; but members on his side could only call public attention to these matters in the Chamber. Another incident which happened a short while

Supply. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2203

back proved the wonderful intelligence which lay hidden in the department over which the Secretary for Public Instruction nominally pre­sided. A head teacher was instructed to send down two names of pupils fo•· the position of pupil-teachers. Not having any children in the school sufficientlv old to satisfy the ree;ulations, he sent down the name of one who, although under age, he was able to recommend, and at the same time pointing out that there were none available of tl•e required age. He shortly received a reply that the child was under age--a fact which he himself pointed out to the depart­ment-and directing him to send down the names of two of the right age, he having already pointed out that such were not to be found in the school. \Vhen such stupidity in the administration of a public department was shown, was it to be wondered at that a little child hardly out of the pu[Jil age "hould be considered fit to take charge of a school of forty or fifty children? He was satisfied that as he had drawn attention to these facts th:>t the Government and the Minister in charge of the department would d" something to bring about an amenclment of the state of affairs he had referred to. Reform was necessary in this department as in all other departments, and the abuse" which had been made manifest during this discusc;iun should be done away with.

The PREMIER: In connection with the ~utter referred to by the leader of the Opposi­tiOn, he found that the Hon. Mr. Barlow had asked these questions in the Upper House-

Has any information been given by his department, or by State school teachers by permission or himself or of his deparnment, to fLU V assoeiation or individual as to the names or addresses· of chilUren attending State scbools or of their 11arents?

The reply given was-Hy direction of the Secretary for Public Instruction,

the Honourable J. G. Drake, a noti0e was inserted in the Edtteat,.on QUice Gazette, for .Tanuary of the current year, directing the head reachers of all sehools-State and provisional-under the Depa-rtment of Public Instruction to despatch to the Rev. G. H. Frodsham, ::\LA., Diocesan ltegistry, Ge()rge street, Bri~ banP, a com­plete list of the names and addresses of 1mrents or guardians of scholars attending their schools. In the Edtt:·c1tion Qu;ce Ga>"fte for the following month, J.lebruary, a further notice was inserted to the effect that head teachers might address the lists to the Under ~ecretary for Public Instruction if they preferred to do so. In ac~ordance with the second notice, many lists ot names and addresse~ were sent by teachers to the Department of Public Instruction, and were sub­sequently forwarded to J.Ir. Prodsha.m.

That showed that there W%S no wish on the part of the dtpartment to conceal anything about this matter. Then the hon. member for Cler­mont read extracts from the Education Gazette. A circular had been sent to the department by the Deputy Postmaster-General, at the request of the Poo;tmaster-Geneml of the Commonwealth; this was inserted, and be did not see that there was any objecticn to putting it in. T n fact, he was very glad that the ·Federal Government was economising in this way. If anyone was to blame, it was the Federal Prime Minister. Then with regard to the indignation of the hon. members for South Brisbane and Clermont as to children being asked to contribute to­wards a memoria I to the late Queen Victoria, he might say that she was the only Queen they had had in their lifetime, and when she died the wholf' world mourned; and he thought it was but. little to ask the children-there was no compulsion about it-to give some little coin towards this memorial to that grand old woman.

HONO\IRABLE 1V1E1!BERS : Hear, bear ! The PREMIER: There were about 80,000

school children in the State. If thev each con­tribnted le., it would amount to £4,000; but, as ·only about £60 was subscribed by them, there

was not much compulsion. Then as to children fighting as to who had more or les,, all school children squabbled in that way, and they were asked to give to all sorts of subscriptions. If they were getting up a cricket club, they would find the money for that.

Mr. TGRLEY : That is for the school iteelf, which is a different thing.

The PREMIER: This memorial would belong to the >chools, and to the whole colony, and he dared say the children would raise funds for less worthy objects than a memorial to the late Quoen. According- to th8 hon. member for Clermont, they "hould not be all,nved to raise money for the i10spitals-the SLate should l'rovide everything-.

::\lr. TGRLEY: They do not m~>ke any collec­tions in the •chools for the hospitals.

The PREMIER: They did. As a rule, children wrr .... ver-y g-enerou~, and they should encnnrt1ge them to be gen?rous instead of spend~ ing thf'H' mon .. y on R\\·eeb .. and c:ake.

Mr. McMASTER(FortitudeVa//cyjwaspleased to heM that the Government were likely to carry out the resolution of the Assembly with regard to the contributions for State school' as soon a~ the state of the Treasurv wonld warrant them in doing so. With regard to the Xew Farm State school, he was fairly well acqmtinted with the whole of the circumstances connected with the erection of that school from ito inception. The school committeR worked very hard to mise the fnnds required for the erection of that "chool ; they purchased the h111d at a hig·b pvice, and when the sclJOol was complete it would be a magnificent institution. The buildin!{ was erectRd to accommodate 395 child1en, hut on the opening day the number of children who attended was nearly 700. He had got the Secretary for Public Instruction, with his officerR, to go down and see the place, and the Th<linis. ter requested the Govemment Architect to see what could be done to provir~e additional accommodation. The result was that they pro­pnsed to utilise the verandas and l he space under the huildin;r, which was partly used as ": play­gronnd. The bon. member fnr North Bnsbane said the;- had got all the accommodation they required at that school at the present time. They had got it in the way be had described, but the children could not possibly be kept under the school and on the veranda durini( the winter season. The head teacher had informed him that he would prefer to put up with the tempo· rary accommodation and the closing of one or two of the verandas, as had been done, in the hope that the department would put 'm addition to the building within twelve or eighteen months. The Secretary for Agriculture had pointed out that we hacl the largest attendance of children in any of the Australian Statesin pro port ion to our popu­lation. The particular district where this school was located was a populous one, and was getting very closely stttled. \Ve had free'education to a great extent, and building< must be erected for the accommodation of those children ·who were sent to c•Chool, whatever other retrenchment might have to be effected. It was no use shirk­mg the matter. The late Secretary for Pnblic Instruction, the Hon. J. G. llrake, e-ot a short Bill through Parliament, authorising him to pnt the compulsory provisions of the Education Act into operatir•n in regard to both provisional and State schools.

Mr. TURLEY: He did not get any Bill through at all; the provision wc;s in the Act.

1\lr. NfcMASTER : A short Bill cn,me to the Legislative Cnnncil from the Assembly, authoris­ing the enforcement of the compulsory pro· vision" with regard to provisional schools. Before that it was only applicn bleto State schools. The ban. rnember for South Brisbane might

2204 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl;ij.

kn<•W a good deal, but he did not know every· thing. 'l'he Government having appointed in· spectors to hunt up the truant children, they must of necessity find accommodation for the children who would attend school; in what­ever other direction the Gove<·nment might retrench, they must not neglect to find accommodation for the school children. The Government were now endeavouring to get the committee of the school to tind the one· sixth of the cost of improvements. He did not think that was fair. \Vhen the State built a school, it was their lookout that it was ahead of the population, and if they did not build it suffi­ciently large, any further accommodation ought to be provided by the department. He admitted that the de]Jartment was not, veryflu,;h of money, and he had no doubt they were holding back on that account, but there was no getti>1g away from the fact that school committee" h>~d " greaG deal of h11rd work to do in canv<tssing their districts, and they could not be expected to do that work twice over.

Mr, JE:'\KINSON (Wide Bay) was in accord with the hon. member who had resumed his seat. His complaint "ppeared to be that the department would not make certain improvements to the school at the expense of the S;ate. One of the grievances they had in country electorates was that even when the parents were prepared to find one-fifth of the cost of repairs, they could not get the remainder from the department. That was a much harder case than the one in­stanced by the hon. member. The department had even gone further. He had received a letter with reference to carrying out some repairs to a provision>~! school in his electorate. On the 1st of August the House passed a resolution to the effect that all repairs should be C\wried out at the cost of the State, and that appeared to have been distinctly ignored by the department. In fact they had gone even further. In a com­munication to the school committee they stated-

The .:\Iinister regrets that he is unable to promise a subsidy to,vards the cost of improvements, and he invites the committee to have the necessary repairs of the school bnilding carried out without expense to this department.

In another letter which the department wrote they said-

1Vith reference to your letter of the 14,th instant, I mn to again inform the school committee that pro­visional ~chools must be kept in good repair by the :parents of the pupils.

That was "' distinct defi,nce of the motion that was carried on the initiative of the hon. member for Croydon-that provisional schools should be placed on the same footing as State schools, and also a defiance of the motion carried by the hon. member for Flinders-that the whole cost of repairs should be borne by the department. He would ask the Secretary for Agrict,lture on what authority had the Under Secretary for Public Instruction sent out a letter of that kind? It was a scandalous thing that any Minister or Under Secretary should attempt to deliberately override the expressed resolution of the House after a distinct promise had been made by the Premier and the Minister in charge of the department. He maintained that they had no authority for issuing that letter, and it was a piece of pure a'surnption to arrogate to themselves the authority contained in it. He did not know who was responsible-the Minis­ter or the Under Secretary-but the Minist,er must have seen the letter before it was sent out. The Secretary for Agriculture had told them that the reason why the resolution of the House had not been given effect t') was because no money was available. He had occasion to go to the ·secre­tary for Public Instruction a short time ago to ask for the building of a pbyshed near Mount

Bauple. The one-fifth had been sent to the department, although there was no necessity for it ; and he was then met by the statement that the education vote had been exhausted, and the work could not be carried out. The Minister had told them that nothing could be done until Parliament provided the necessary funds, but the department must have known from the applications made repeatedly during the last few months that there was urgent necessity for carrying out some of those works. \Vhy could not the Estimates have been' brought in sooner, and if the vote passed was not sufficient, a supplementary sum could have been voted later on. He was quite sure there was no member who would oppose an extra grant, because it w:>s recognised that the best heritage they could give to the children of the St>~te was to provide them with a liberal education. On the 16th October he received a letter from Mr. Green, secretary to a sub-committee of the Maryborougb and \Vide Bay State School Cotl;lmittee Conference, with reference to a state­ment made to a deputation by the Minister for Public Instruction that Queensland made as liberal a provision for education as the other States. lYir. Green, who took an exceptionally keen interest in the matter, had gone to a deal of trouble in getting out figures to support the statement he made when the deputation waited on the Minister, and he deaired to read a portion of his figures to the Committee :-

EcZMcation-Pt'LWJ'JJ, secondary, and technical. Referring to petition presented to the Legislative

Assembly, I beg to furnish the t'ollowing information­taken from offieial reports-showing relative expendi­ture 111 Queensland, ~ ew Zealand, ~ ew :South Wales~ and Yictoria.

Qm~ENSL-\.XJJ-Page 12, Education Report for 1899:-Primary £236,418 15 10 Grammar sclwols and universitit.s 13,747 11 0 .Museum, technical and schools of

art 11,960 7 10

£262,126 l4 s 1\EW ZEALANlJ-Page 11 of report for lb9H :-

Total expenditure ... ... .. . £303,28G 10 S Less fees paid for high schools,

technical schools, training, etc... :5,628 7 8

Less donations, subscriptions, and interest

£499,6;7 0

1,372 19 3

£498,28± 3 9 NEW SOU'l'H VYAu;s~Page 22 of report, 1899 :~

Amount expended £7,~'7,0tl0 7 10 Less fees paid ... 7t:!,338 2 6

rniVel''lty, grant from Government Sydney Grammar School :J.lusenm Public Library Art Gallery

£b5b,7~2 5 4 11,~66 lJ '1 1,500 0 () H,705 19 7 9 ''39 () () a:9ss o o

£691.421 1~ 3 YICTORIA.~Page 15 of report for 1899 :-

Total expenditure £704,777 6s. 5d.

Fees are collected in Yictoria for extra subjects taught (rrom 3d. to Is. each per week) and for night schools, but the amount is insignificant and does not reduce above the extra fees being p :~.id to teachers.

These figures show that in proportion to population for same year (st:·e statistics Pngh's Almanac for 190\J­narnely, Queenslar:d, 51:!,604; Xew Zc!lland, 756,505 ~ New south Wales, 1,356,650; Yictoria, 1,163,400) the expenditure on education in Queen'iland is £75,000 lJer annum less than in :Xew Zealand, £47,000 behind Vict,oria, and level with :Xew South \\~ales; or, taking the average of those three colonies, we require to spend £±0,000 per annum more than we do now to make our expenditure equal theirs. 'l'his of course disproves tlJe ass(~rtion that Queensland makes as liberal provision for education as do the other colonies. Another argument adduced by the Secretary or Agriculture was that owing to the extent of

Suppl,y. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2205

territory in Queensland we were not able to do as much. But the hon. gentleman completely cnt

the ground from under his own feet [9·30 p.m.] in making a statement of that sort;

and the hon. gentleman, as a keen logician, must admit that. He hoped the Secre­tary for Agriculture, when replying, would statA how it came about that the department sent the letter he had read to the secretary of the Munna Creek school, in defiance of the regulations and of the express will of the Legislative Assembly, Then there was the matter of the Raby school, where the department refused to go on with the erection of a playshed, although the one-fifth was tendered.

The SECRETARY FOl:t AGRICULTURE: The reason why the playshed was held over was on account of the shortage of money, and be­cause there was more urgency for erecting pro­visional and State schools than for erecting play­sheds. \Vith regard to the other point-that in connection with the repairs to Munna Creek school-he might state that about two years ago a resolution was ptssed in the LegislatiYe As­,.e,nbly in connection with repairs, and the result was that regulation 10 was altered, so thet addi­tions and repair" to State schools should be done without calling for loc ~1 contributions. But regulation 11, relating tc, provisional schools, re­rnained as it was.

:M:r. ,J E~Kr~so~ : In direct defiance of a re­solution of the Assembly.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: A resolution of the Assembly was not a resolu­tion of Parliament, and he was not prepared, in the absence of the Attorney-General, to give an opinion as to the exact weight of a resolution of the Assembly. A law had to be passed by the two Houses, and regulation 11-which was part of the law-provided that provisional schools must be kept in good repair, and that rule would have to be altered before the repairs could be effected at the expense of the State.

2\Ir. TL:RLEY : Last year he asked some questions in the House ab011t medals that were to he distributed at the time of the Common­wealth celebrations, and he afterwards made a statement to the effect that the Government had connived at a bit of a job by giving information to people who were able, by that information, to take that information round to a tradesman in Brisbane, get the work carried ont in another colony, anc1 out of a contract amounting to some­thing like £1,250 make £500. It would be seen on page 2310 of last year's Hansard that he stated that a man representing the Brisbane Cou1·ie1· in the gallery at that time, received that particular information out of which he­with a couple of colleagues picked up outside -was able to get this large cornmi,sion. Since that, this business had been through the Supreme Court, and they had information given as to how the whole thing was arranged. There were two persons in Brisbane named M"c:JYiahon Brothers, who came here to build a cyclorama and variuu8 other things. This case was taken in court on the 30th August last-MacMahon Brotherq v, Brown. In opening the case Mr. Fc,cz said the following agreement was entered into between Brown and the MacMabons :-

Brisbane, 27th October, 1900. ~Iessrs. }Iac11ahon Bros. In the event of my tender

for medals proposed to be given to the State school children by the Q.ueensland Government on the occa­sion of the Federal proclamation celebration being accepted, I hereby agrPe to give you three-fourths of the profits arising from such contract, and to supply you with copy of the tender and the prime cost of the rnedals.

I am, yours faithfully, C. A. BR01Y~.

,James Macl\Iahon gave tHs evidence-He knew Herbert Low, and had some discussion with

him in respect to those inquiries. He found that there 'vas a proposal to distribute medals to the school children. Subsequently he and his brother visited defendant's shop, and he (witness) sairl to defendant: "I have some important information bearing on your trade, and a considerable profit can be made out of it. lf I impart it to you, are you willing to share the profits by giving us three-fourths nnd retaining one-fourth yourself?"

In croRs-examination by :Mr. Feez, he said-He rememberc<l IIerbert LmY having an intel'View

with defendant. Low asked defendant for a note setting out his one-fonrth interest in the profits arising from the contract. He said he wanted to negotiate the note.

:Further, he said-'l'he day after LmY asked defendant for his contract

witness asked dcfen(lant as a matter of personal accom­modation to sign a bill for three months for £125, and he ·would give him a receipt for the same.

Then there was wme little talk about the matter being brought up, and there appeared in the Government organ, the StJ"Cet, a paragraph to this effect- ·

rrhe silly Labour party ha.s been instrumental in stirring up this wretched swindler to resist payment rightfully due, and when their wretched fJr-oteue stands in the dnck, as lle will after :he civil proccediugs, he will no donbt appreciate the beauties of the platform.

This was why the question had been brought up, and members of the House wanted to know why this particular contract had been let in this way. Then further, in cross-examination, this witness stated-

By ::.\Ir. l"eez : He helieved Herbert IA)W was at pre­sent in Brisbane. He was ~~ jonrnal!st, and wrote for various papers, including Sl!·eet. He did not know what J,ow had done with his interest in this matter.

* * * llir. Philp .;the Premier) told him it was the intention of the Govm·nmr-nt to giYc medals to the school children. The information vtas not imparted to him as a senret. He was present one day when Low, who was intoxi­cated, \V':nt to defendant's office and said be would burst him up.

* * "\Yhcn the qne.:;tion about these medals came up in

the Assembly at the instance of ::.\Ir. 'rurley. defendant asked him to use his influence to keep the matter out of the papers, because he was afraid that if the matter gained extensive publicity the Government might mmcel the contract. He told defendant he had no in­fluence or power to do as he wished.

Then the gentleman who took the contract, and who was supposed to carry it out, gave evi­dence-

He didn't know a man named Low at the time. Bv an over:o;ight, the med<tl was not sent in with th8 tender, but he sent it later on. Plaintiffs did not tell him tl1ey had important information to give respecting his trade, and that they would impa1·t it to hiln if he would agree to give them three-fourths of the profits arising from the result of their information. he retain­ing- one-fourLh for himself. 'rhe tender he sent in was not accepted. He afterwards saw .Jame"3 }Iacl\Iahon, and told him the :\1mister was not sati:-;fiecJ with the mt Jal submitted, that he wanted a larger medal of a different design, and different ribbon. Plaintiff said "Oh, you'll have to get more for that," and asked him to go with him and see Low, to whom he repeated the remarks of the :\Hnister. T,ow replied, •( Oh, well, I'll see the Premier."

But the case went further than that. As reported in the Telegraph of 2nd September, Mr. Feez asked permission to pnt Mr. Philp into the bnx, and he was put into the box and sworn. Then the lawyers had a bit of a confab and said they hoped this would be able to be settled out of court, and there would be no nece,sity to go any further with the case. Here was work to be done by the Government-a job ot about £1,250 or £1,300-and that this information was given to an individual who was employed by one of our

2206 Snppl;y. [ASSEMBLY.J Supply.

daily papers, who had per,istently and comis­tently supported the Government side, and traduced as far as possible every )Jerson who had sat in opposition to them. Then this arrangement was settled with a tradesman in Brisbane who did nut do the work. Those medals were made in Melbourne, and the total cost landed here in Brisbam1 for distribution, he was informed, was £800. The r•,sult was there was £500 elear profit made by those persons who had never had to put a hand to the work, becausP. the medals were packed up by the firm who made them in Melbourne and rlelivered to any place where they had to go in Queensland. He contended that this was fraudulency. He did not care whether it was carried out by a Govern­ment; and he contended there was no hon. member on the other side who, if he was dealing with his own business, and spending his own money, would give any person £500 commission to carrY out work that cost altogether about £i,250 or £1,300. Then, again, a great deal of this sort of thing had been suppreRsed, as usual, becalme evidently it did not suit certain newspaJ;ers to report it. As a matter of fact, the paper thnt called itself the leading Government organ never mentwned that the Premier had been put into the box and sworn in connection with this matter. It was another journal that recorded that. There seemed to be a sort nf conspiracy wherever a job of this kind cropped up, and he characterised this ~-s a deliberate job with the object of giving s.nne reward or assistance to people who were supporting the Government through the medium of a certain paper. Spending public money in connection with jobs like ttlis, and other matters, as had been pointed out where the Government had been subsidising the Press to an enormous extent, was not right in the interests of the countl·y. If hon. members were dealing with their own money, they would not do business of this sort.

The SECRETARY FORAGRICULTUitE: The hon. member for South Brisbane always thought it necessary to make some speech con­demnatory of the Government--

Mr. TURLEY : No. The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE:

And to endeavour to show. in season and out of season, that the people who run this Government were entirely destitute of honesty and good moti vee, and that every one of their transactions must be ranked as a job. Therefore he intro­duced thi' matter, which was not before the House at all.

lHr. TuRLEY: Yes, it comes under the Depart­ment of I'nblic Instruction.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It was not in this vote. The sum was voted last year and passed on the Supplementary Estiml1te·'· So, he thought, the hon. member was entirely out of order in introducing this matter. The hon. member only wished to get his remarks into Hw1!SaTd. The story which the hon. member had introduced was entirely irrevelant. Mr. Drake, the Federal Postmaster-General, was the gentleman who had n:acle the .bargain, not with Mr. Low or somebody else, but with Mr. C. Brown, a respectable silversmith and jeweller of Queen street. \Vhat was done afterwards did not concern the Government or the Postmaster­General of the Commonwealth.

1\lr. TCI\LEY : Mr. MacMahon says he got the information from the Premier; be gave that in evirlence in the court.

The SECRETARY :FOR AGRICUI,TURE: He did not believe a single word of that, and he did n0t belie\e the hon. member himself did. The hon. member was simply introducing this matter now to try and down Mr. Low, who was not a favourite of his, and who wrote for a

journal which was very obnoxious to hon. mem­bers opj;osite. The bargain was made by Mr. Drake with Mr. C. Brown to supply 100,000 mecl><ls, and the price was 3d. each. The matter had been settled last year, and the hon. member either desired to injure Mr. Drake or to trv and damage Mr. Low. If he wished to dama.;e Mr. Low, that had not.hing to do with the Government. If anyone was to bhtme, it was JYir. Drake, who was once solicited by hon. members opposite to bec<Jme leader of their party. He did not. think the general !JUblic troubled very much about the statements made by some hon. members opposite, became such statements were only made to try and discredit the Government.

Mr. TURLEY : The hon. gentleman said that this \'Ote had been dealt with last yPar, hut he and his colleagues got this vote through last year by employing the "guillotme." Not one word was said last sesilion on these Estim>ttes. The Government had subsidised a certain paper for the first six months of this year to the extent of £10 a week. This information appeared in an official document of this House. On the sworn evidence of MacMahon Brothers

the information was given to them [10 p. m.] by the Premier, which enabled them

to make this sum of mc,ney by hand­ing over the job to a gentleman who was carrying on business in Queen street. But it appeared that the Federal Postmaster-General wa" to be made the scapegoat for everything wrong which had taJcen place on the other side of the House while he was a member of the Govern­ment. The MacMahon Brothers swore that the information they obt.abed was furnished by the Premier.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Is that necessarily true? Mr. TURLEY: If the hon. member chose to

say that the :\JaclYiahon brothers went into the Supreme Court and perjured themselves, he could not help it; but that was the evidence they gave to the court ..

Mr. MACARTXEY : Had the Premier any opportunity ot gi\·ing evidence?

Mr. TURLEY: As soon as the Premier was put in the witness-box, and sworn, there was a confab between Mr. :Feez and Mr. Lukin at the table, with the result that they said as the matter could be settled out of court there was no necessity to ask the Premier any questions.

Mr. MACAH'rNEY : That does not show that the Premier had any opportunity of answering the statements of YiacMahon.

Mr. TURLEY: It showed that the counsel had no desire to ask the Premier any questions. At any rate there was the statement of the MacMahon Brothers that by agreement with Mr. Brown thev were to receive three-fourths of the profits made out of the contract. which, accord­ing to the Auditcr-General's Report, amounted to £1,300. He coutended that no business nmn on the other side of the House would give out work to the extent of £1,250, out of which some­one could make a profit of £500 without doing any of tLe work, as was done in this case. The medals were manufactured in _,felbourne for about£8 per 1,000, so that the whole cost £800, and these fuur men were to receive £125 tach as profit. Prices were ,ubmitted, bnt no person in Queens­land was asked to submit a tender in connection with the matter. The Government did not accept the lowest ten<! er. Re contended that in lH<tLter;; like this the public money should be deals with just as ~crupulously as if hon. mem­bers had to deal with their own money, >tnd that had not been done in the present instance. It appeared that Government snpporters were willing in many cases to use public money with the object of subsidising their friends for the support they received.

Supply. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2207

The PREMIER: The hon. member for South Brisbme stated that he had given the informa. tion.

Mr. Tt:RLEY: I said the MacMahon Brothers swore that in the Supreme Court.

The PHE::VIIER: He went to the Supreme Court to give evidence, bnt they did not want his evidence, and he was not asked any questions. Mr. i\Ia~JYiahon came tn him one evening in the House and asked what the Government were going to do with regard to the Commonwealth celebrations. He told Mr. MacMahon very little. Mr. :W:wMahon afterwards sent to ask if his services would be required, and his reply was in the negative. The first telegram in connection with the matter came from Sydney. They afterwardR got a letter from Mr. Brown sub­mitting· a price, also from another local man.

Mr. TcnLEY: Yes, and he got the information quietly.

The PREMIER: Mr. Drake, then Post­master-General, had the whole matter in his hands, and he was of opinion ,;t the time th,;t l>Ir. Brown's tender was the best, and accepted it. There was no time to call for tenders.

Mr. TCRLEY: There was time for Mr. Brown to send to Melbourne for the medals, the samG as the Government could have done.

.:Hr. JENKINSON' They sent for them on the 23rd Oetober.

The PREMIER : He did not think they got deli1·ery until about the middle of December. At all events he was certain that the then Post­master-General showed no partiality in the rr,atter, nor had he done so. Any information that came to him he sent on to the Postmaster­General, who accepted the tender. He (the Premier) understood that after Mr. Brown's tender was accepted ,;notber local m<>n sub­mitted a tender at a lower price, but the thing had then gone too far to consider that tender. Comparing :Mr. Brown's tender with the price submitted by telegram from Sydney it "as con· sidered that the offer was a very fair one. He was sorry the Government paid £400 .or £500 more than they ought to have paid.

Mr. Tt:RLEY: It w,;s underground work. The PREMIER: There might have been

underground work, but not on the part of the Government, and he challenged the hon. member to prove that any member of the Government h,;d anything to rlo with it.

Mr. Tt:RLEY: Take J\facl'viahon's evidence. The PREMIER: He did not care what

M,;cl\Iahon said. He only saw him once, and had n8ver .:.-een him since.

1fr. JESKINSON: He said Low wa·i to see you.

The PREMIER: Mr. Low had no influence with him in the matter; he might have asked him whose tender was accepted. He had always looked upon i\Ir. Brown as a very hone't and respectable man, and, knowing he was a respect· able man, they thought they were safe in accept­ing his tender. When the question Wc\S asked last year he explained that there was no time to call for tenders. The Government had several pric·eo, and they accepted what they thought was the best. \Vhether Mr. Brown or Mr. MacMahon made £300 or not he did not know.

Mr. Tnu.EY: Evidently they did. The PREMIER: He did not think they

should h~ ve done. The Government got three prices, and he thought the Sydney price was higher than tbe price they accepted.

Mr. JE:-iKISSON: It was £14 lls. 8d., and Brown's price was £12 10s.

ThE PREMIER: At the time they accepted the best tender.

]\fr. TuRLEY : Y on never asked for prices ram Brisb,;ne tradesmen.

The PREMIER : He thought they did. Mr. TuRLEY: No, you did not. Mr. GIVENS was a'tonished at the hon.

member for South Brisb<>ne being surprised at the Government being connected with a tramac­tion of this kind. It wa,; very evident that the man to whom the Government were under an obligation in consequence of the gross partisan· ship he displayed ,;s a gallery hand in the Assembly, made the bef't use of the information to which he had the <exclusive right. How were the Government to get support from the various papers of the colony unless they g,;ve the press· men a qu'd pro quo? It appeared that some­thing- h,;d to be done for that person to pay him for the partis,nship he di;played as the principal reporter for a public print; and hon. gentlemen opposite, not being inclined to p,;y him out of their own puckets for the services which he had performed, were not above doing a little business of this kind 'o as to let llim pay himself uut of the pu hlic fun do.

The SECHETAHY FOR AGRICCLTCHE : It. wa' the Postmaster-Geneml who accevted the tender.

Mr. GIVENS: \Vhen the Postmaster-Gene­ral was Secretary for Public Instruction, was he empowered to accept tenders to the tune of £1,300?

The SECRWrAHY FOR AGHICCL'J.TRE: He made this ,;rrangemeut at any rate.

Mr. GIV:ENS: Everyone knew that such matters went before the CabinAt, even when smaller sums of money than £1,300 were in­volved. As " matter of fact there was sworn evidence to show that the information came from the Premier.

The SECRE1'AHY }'OR AGRICULTUHE : He has denied it.

Mr. TuHLEY : He did not deny it. The PnEil!IER: I only saw him once. Mr. GlVENS: They had sworn evidence­

whether it was worth anything or not he did n<lt know-that the information which was worth to MacMahon between £400 and £500 came through the Premier, and not through the Postrnaster­Gener,;l. He thought it was very mean of the Secretary for Agriculture to try and throw,;]] the dbcredit of the transaction upon an 11bsent man.

The SECRE1'ARY }'OR Acmccr.'rlJRE: There i• not a particle of discredit.

The PREMIEH : He accepted the best tender he had with the consent of the Cabinet.

Mr. GIVEKS : The most charitable Yiew they could take was that the Government made a mistake.

The S"Cl<ETAI\Y lWll AcmcuLTCRE : There is no evidence that they did.

Mr. GIVENS: Then it must have been some­thing very 1nuch worse than a mistake.

The SEORETAHY l!'OR AGHICUL'rcm~: There is no proof that the price w,;s excessive.

Mr. GIVENS: The Government entered into an arrctngernent for the supply of a certain article costing .£1,300 without ,;sking for prices frnru tradesmen in the city.

The Pl!i''IIIEH: \Ve had an offer from Sydney at the s,;rne price.

Mr. GIVENS: Yes, and that gentleman was able to send in " price, not because he had ful' knowledge of the medals required, but becans<, he heard of it by 11ccident. Two of the manu­facturing jewellers of Brisbane told him tbey never knew anything about it, and they stigma­tised the whole business as a dhgraceful tr« nsac­tion. He had nothing to f'ay against l.Vfr. Bt·own. He was wise to take advant,;ge of the special information placed at bis diRposal, which he agre d to pay a special price for; but why was special information given to one man and not to another?

The PRE1HEH : It was not.

2208 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. GIVE::'-fS: 'They had absolute 8Worn evidence that it was.

The SECRETARY E'Ol\ AGRICULTVRE: I would rather take the Premier's word than the oaths of borne people.

Mr. GIVE::'fS: At all events there was thA palpable fact, apart from the evidence, that none of the tradesmen in that particular line were aware that the work was required to be done.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: They could not have made the medals, anyhow.

::\Ir. Tc:RLEY : YE'', they could. Mr. G IV ENS: There were firms in the city of

Brisbane that could have done the work, but did nut know anything about it. Why did not the Government give the information to everybody alike? They could r:<sily hr,ve inserted an ad­vertisement in tbe Cow·ier or the Teler~raph, instead of going to the CourieT gallery reporter, and giving him the special inforrnation, because they were under an obligation to him for hie partisanship m the gallery.

Question put •md passed.

STATE SCHOOLS-IKSPECTIOK.

The SECRETARY :b'OR AGRIO"CLTURE moved that £10,360 be granted for State schools -inspection. There was an increase in the vote due to the appointment of Mr. \V. K l3enbow at a salar~· of £350 and £150 travelling allow­ances, and to an additional £300 for the travel­ling Pxpenses of the seven attendance officer~. Mr. Ben bow's dictrict was what was called the \Ve,tern district.

Mr. BRO\VNE: There was a paragraph in one of the inspector's rer.orts to w bich he would like to draw attention now there was so much talk about the terrible tropical climate of North Queensland. The following statement by Mr. Inspector Gripp would be found on page 78 of th" report-

After my experience in the :Korth of Queensland, where it is popularly believed that the climate takes all vigour and energy out of its inlmbitants, when I wa.:. transferred tu the Southern district, with its cool and bracing air, I fully expected to find the minds and bodies of the children more active and vigorous, and therefore more adaptl''d to really hard work than in the case of their )[Qlthern rivals, but I cannot say that I found this to be a faet. That showed that even youngsters in the North were as vigorous in body and intellect as those in the boasted climate of the South, and he thougbt there was no reason to be afraid on account of the future generation of North Queensland.

JVIr. A ll:tEY: In connection with attendance, he would like to draw attention to page 6 of the report of the 1'Iinister, which contained this passage-

As the la'v at presents stands, schno1 attendance for si~~ty Clays in the haJf-year will free varcnts from prosecution. and children who have reached the a:.·e of twelve ~years are exempt. rrhere is a common opinion among the attendance ofUcers, in "\Vhich opinion many teachers share, tha.t the period of compulsory attendance should be increased, and the Hmit of a..:>·e for compulsory attendanee s.hould be rai-;ed to fourteen years.

Then, on page 70, would be found this opinion, given by Mr. Inspector Kenne.:ly·-

From another point of virw a still more sm·ious draw­back is that the clau~es clo not apply to children above the age of twelve; the most incorrigible truant who has reached that age is enti.rcly unaiiected by them, and can defy the attendance officer with imuunity; and children \vllo, through disinclination on the.ir own part or neglect on tlle part of others, cease to }tttend school, are left free to do so at an age when such freedom is apt to be particularly dangerous. I believe that the clauses wonld be far more valuable were they amended in the directions of raising the age o! the chilclren to whom they apply anrl increasing the minimum amount of attendauce required.

On page 73 there was an opinion by Mr. In­spector Harrap to tbe Rame effect-

In towns where the Factory Act is enforced boys are not H.llowed to be employed in factories until they are fourreen years of age, so that if they leave school when twelve years old they wHl have two years' idle time in which to forget much of what they learnt at school, and to learn mnch street-corner language and be­haviour. On pe,ge 76 Mr. Canny held forth in a similar strain; at page 79 Mr. Gripp talked in the same way; and at !Jage 88 Mr. Mutch also talked in a similar strain; and he suhrnitterl that when the JYiinister and those prominent officials of the department talked like that, it was time that action "'as taken. On reference to the report of thA Chief Inspector of Factmies and Shops it would be found, on page 18, that he stated-

At twelve years of age a boy is not compelled to at­tend State school. At sixteen years of age he is on the same footing as adult workers, so far as the State is con­cerned. If his primm·y education finishes at t\velve, there are two years to be tilled in before he can enter a factory. 'Vhat is to become of him during that time? As a matter of faet, what does become of ho.Y -~ between twelve and fourteen years :0

He thought that that was some of the strongest testimony that he had ever seen, from two dis­interested Government officials, in favour of an amendment of the present law. It was perfectly true that boy' who left school at tbe age of twelve were imperfectly educated. The scbool standard could not be overtaken by them. The truth was that in nine cases out of ten they were sacrificed to the selfishness of their parents. He thought t.hat the present system was a fruitful cause of Jarrikinism. If the age were altered to fourteen so1ne exceptions might be rnade to meet speci<tl ca,~s, and to a great extent the defects of tbe present system would be remedied. To send these boys out into the street at this early age meant that they would graduate in the gutter, and those who graduated in the gutter might matriculate in the gaol. He hoped that the Government \Vould take the matter into serious consideration with a view to making some altera­tion in the Jaw with regard to the school age.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Per>onally he wns dispo,.ed to sympathise with the views which had been expressed by the Under Secretary and also by sume of the officers, hut it was not desirable to proceed swiftly in this matter. As far as the compulsory clauses of the Act were concerned, the administration was in a tentative stage. They really did not know what the results would be. He was quite sure that the GovEornment and the Minister would take tbe matter seriouslv into considera­tion. He was disposed to think it would be better to increase the statutory age. It might be easy enough to compel the attendance of boys about the towns, but in the country these boys were frequently employed on farms, and if action were taken it was probable that the bench would not convict. In New South \V ales the statutory ages were from six to fourteen ; in Victoria, from six to thirteen ; in Queens­land, from six to twelve; in South Australia, from seven to thirteen ; in \V estern Australia, from six to fourteen ; in Tasmania, from seven to thirteen; and in New Zealand, from se;;en to thirteen. Queensland was, therefore, in the unenviable po,ition ofhavingthe lowest age limit. This was a matter which he was sure the attention of the Minister would be directed to.

Mr. McDONNELL (Fortitude Valley): He was very glad that the ::\Iinister had extJressed his agreement with what had been said J,bout the age limit. In Victoria a bny, before he entered a factory, bad to pass an educational test. This was a question that required the immediate consideration of the Government, hecause it was apparent that there were a large number of boys

Supply. [3 DECEMBER.] Sttpply. 2209

knocking about the streets of Brisbane who should be attending school. He thought it was one of the best features of our factory laws that boys had to be fourteen years of age bPfore they could be admitted to any factory. They were then better able to cope with manual labour than if they were allowed to enter >Lt an earlier age. Under these circumstances it was desirable to extend the age-school age-to fourteen years, and he hoped that the Minister wvuld give the matter his serious consideration. He believed it only required an amendment nf the regulations, and if so he hoped the Government would make the necessary amendment to effect the desired change.

The PRE}!IER: It is in the Act. :Y1r. lVIcDOXNELL : Well, it would be only

a matter of bringing in a ,hort amendment of the Act, and he thought it should be possible to do that this session.

ThePREMIERpointed out though it was only compulsor) for pupils to att nd school from oix to twelve ye<ns of age, as a matter of fact, the bulk of the children attended the State schools to a later age. He h"d seen boys at the State schools sixteeu years of age. 'fhen, again, though the statutory ages were lower in Queensland than in the other States, the attendance was better according to the popnlatinn, and the enrolment w cs better than in the other States. As the;· had only seven inspectors it was not possible t'o enforce the compulsory part of the Act all over (,lueensland, but they did as ncuch as they could. In the t<>Wns it was easy, but in the country, where, a' the .Minister bad pointed out, bo! s of twelve years of age mig·ht be a gnod cle>tl of help to their parents on their farms, it would be an injustice to raise th · age. In the towns he thought it would be advisable to raise the age.

:\lr. RYLAND (Gympic) thought that the number of clays shonld be increase i from e.ixty to eighty, and the age should be raiserl to fourteen yeare. As a rule, children in ccuntry districts went t() school not so young as children in town~, and he did not se" why the futmeprospectsof these children should be jeopardised any more th'm the prospects of t be children in the towns. Then he thought that the number of iu,pectors-seven­was altogether too small for this large colony, and a little more money spent in this direction would not be money wasted. H~ would like to see the l\iinister and the department take these matters up, and to see that the pro vi .ions of the Act were carrieri out better than they had been.

:VIr. Jl~NI<;INSON: He had received a lett.er -and he presumed other bon. members had re­ceived similar letters-from a gentleman named iVIr. ,J Oilll Kerr, enclosing a copy of a lettP.r which he had sent to the DRpartmmt of Public In ;truc­tion, dated the 12th October last., dP-aling with the teaching of shorth<tnrl in State schools. H was not neceb ,ary f.>r birn to go through the whole letter, for the department and other hon. members h:cd received copies. He would ask the Minister what was being done in this matter. l\1r. Kerr complained about teachers who re­ceived high salarie9 teaching shorthand in the State scbools, who did not possess t:oe necessary qualification for doing so. l\Ir. Kerr, in his letter dated 12th October last, puinted out that this was in adiition to the ordine,ry curriculum, and that these teachers recei \'ed additional emoluments for teaching shorthand.

The Pm<:;I!IER: In school hours? ::Yir. J.ENKINSOX: He did not mention

what hours. This was evidently cutting into the private work of Mr. Kerr. He noticed that Mr. Kerr had hiK office in the •·ame building as the hon. membPr for Toowong had his, so probably that hon, member would know more abot<t the matter than he did. Mr. Kerr was an entire stranger to him (J\Ir. J enkinson), and beyoncl the

1901-6v

fact of his having sent this letter to him and a copy of the letter he had sent to the Department of Pnblic Instruction, he knew nothing more about the matter. Mr. Kerr seemed to have made out a fairly good case, and he did not think the State school teachers should be any fnrther burdened.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I would remind the hon. member that the vote we are now on is for "Inspection" of State schools. This matter will be better brought up under the next vote, '' TeacherH." *The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The JYir. Kerr who sent this letter should not be confused with l\Ir. Kerr, tht· head teacher of the Normal School. The letter referred to was sent by JYlr .• J,,hn Kerr, the shorthand ··Hiter, and he complained that a number of teachers, who had been certificated in shorthand by the ·rechnical College, were allowed to teach short· hand in the State schools out of school hours, and Mr. Kerr bad complained that these teachers, or many of them, were incompetent to teach shorthand. However, the department had ap­pointed an inspector to hold an inquiry into the matter.

Mr. J llSKINSON: Thank vou ! Question put and passed.·

SCHOOLS (SUBDIVISION).

The SECRETARY FOR AGHICULTURE moved that £270,116 be granted for " Schools (subdidsion)." 'l'his portion of tbe vote showed an increase of £19,341, which consisted of £16,086 required for Kalaries of 1GO "dditional teachers in St<tte schools ; also of an increase of £92;3 for contingencies, caused by the incrutse in the number of teachers employed through the opening of new schools and tbruugb the incre~tsed attendance ; also of an incrpase of £2,330 for "Contingencies (subdivision)," of which £100 was required for additional allow­ances in lieu of residence ;md £2,000 for salaries for provisional school teachers in new schools; £200 extr~ was needed for requi:Jites, and an increase of £30 for schools for aboriginals. 'l'his vote was merely an evidence of the progress being m·>.de in the extension of schools and the increase in the number of scholars, and neces­sarily in the number of teachers.

Mr. JENKIKSOX : In connection with pro­viswnal schools there was one matter that he would like to bring under the notice of the JYiinister, He had r,ceived several letters from his conotituents on the nmtter, wbi<'b was a burn­ing one throughout the whole of the \Vide Bay cliotrict. He referred to the granting of the use of provisional schools. In fort;y ca><es out of fifty there was no public hall available, and hence the school building had to be utilised for meet­ings-for 1neetings of the progress association, by debating sc•cieties, and for dances. Nearly every time a clanc~ was held in the school building, it was for the purpose of raising funds in order to carry out repairs to the school -not in connection with other business-and, as a rulP, he thought the department might forego the application having t<' be made for the me of the school building. In manycasesaftera meet­ing had been held it might be thought desirable to hold a dance, and, according to the regula­tions, thH teacher could not give the neces­sary permission without applic.ttion wao made to the department. He thought in this con­nection the deparLment could act very wisely by allowing a little bit more elasticity in their regulations. One school he had referred to particularly before, and it had been erected out of the residents' own pockets, without any sub-icly from the Government. They put up a veranda, however, and they paid half and the Government paid the other half for this work.

2210 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl,y.

At present these people had to send down an application to hold a dance there on every occasion. He had spoken to the hon. gentleman when he was Secretary for Public Instrnct,ion, and he had sheltered himself-and he agreed with the hon. gentleman-behind the regulation which provided that none of those meetings should take nlace without a definite application being made t0 the department. He really thought a little more elasticity should be shown in regard to people in the outside districts. *The SECRETARY :FOR AGRICULTURE: The present rule was that application should be made to the department. It occasionally bap· pened that after a dance the school room was left in such a condition as to disturb the school routine. That was the reason for the regulation. He thought it was better that application should be made to the department, if only to show that the primary use of the school was for tuition. But in such cases as that mentioned by the hon. member-meetings of a progress ?1'3sociation, or meetings of a farmers' association, or any such association-there was no necessity for an appli. cation to be made each time at all. The asso· ciation could make a general application for permission to use the school building for twelve months, or for one month or six months, as the cas8 might be, and that would be quite suf. ficient. He did not know whether the hon. member was aware of that, but it would probably meet the case he alluded to.

Mr. J.ENKINSON admitted that that would suit them with regard to that particular thing, but with regard to the hon. gentlem:>,n's objectiun on account of the uncleanly condition of the school after a dance, every applic:.tion had to be made to the Minister, and there was a stipulation made that persons using the school must provide a certain sum, or must see that the building was cleaned out ready for the school business the fol­lowing rnorning. He was sure that every school committee that he was acquainted with would be quite ready to agree to that ; but if the com­mittee were unanimous in allowing the sl'cwol to be used, why was it necessary for time to be wasted in sending down to the department and in waiting until the permit came back? He did not think that it would be in any way derogatory to the department to allow the committee to use the school on condition that it was left in a cleanly condition. ·when the regu. lations wera heing altered he hoped that that matter would be taken into consideration, and particularly in regard to those schools where the State had not assisted at all to erect thA main edifice. The only assistance given by the depart· ment in the case of the school at Mnnna Creek was £7 10s. for half the cost of the veranda, while the parents of the pupils contributed the £110 for the erection of the school themselves; and in such cases as that an exception should be made.

The SECRETARY JWR AGRICUL'rURE would request the Minister to take the matter into considArat;nn. In the first place, this was rather an exceptional school.

Mr. JENKIKSOX : I have half-a-dozen in \Vide B<>v in the same condition.

The SECRETARY J<'OR AGRICULTURE : The schools were vested in the Secretary for Public Instruction-in other words, pr<lctically in Parliament. Now, the representative of the Government was the head teacher, and if the control was handed over to the committee­who, after all, were not responsible-it would take the control out of the hands of the :\Iinister. It was considered best that the business should be tr:;nsacted '" experience seemed to teach was necessary. With regard to the special matter brought up by the hon. member, he would ,ee the Minister himself and commend it to his attention

Mr .• T"'NKINSOK: Thank you. Mr. MoDONNELL understood that during

the e:trlier part of the discussion the question of the homs and condition of pupil-teachers had been brought under the notice of the Secretary for Agriculture, but that the hon. gentleman had given no definite answer in connection with the matter. Last year the question had been dis­cussed on the Estimates, and it was then pointed out that the hours that pupil.teachers were required to labour, the amount of work they had to do, and the amount of responsibility which was placed upon their shoulders, were so great that the Government should a,dopt some different system. It was pointed out then that pupil­teachers had to attenrl_ school in the morn­ing one and a·half hours before the usual hour, or else remain one and a. half hours after school time in the afternoon for the purpose of receiving instruction, and then they had to "tudy for their examinations in the evenings at home. The system had been very much improved on in other conntriee, especially in England. He read at that time an extract from an educational journal published at home, pointing out the 'ystem tbat was adopted by some of the school boards there. It wa" a well-known fact that pupils of to.day became pupil-teachers to­morrow, and had to teach classes of sixty or seventy pupils.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTUllE: No. Mr. MuDONNELL: He believed that was

not the case at the present time, but he knew it was last year, because the present Secretary for Lands asked some q ue,tions relative to the matter so far as it applied to State schools. Tbe hon. member was then supplied with a

return which showed that of twelve [11 p.m.] pupil-teachers in the Central School

(boys), one had a class of fifty·nine pupils, one a class of seventy·six, another a class of sixty-four, another a class of seventy­three, another of seventy, another of fifty-two, another of tifty·four, another of fifty-seven, another of forty-seven, another of eight, another of fifty-six, and another of twenty·eight. In the girls' 'chool one pupil-teacher had a class of forty·nine, another of forty.five, another of forty-eight, and another of fifty·six. He hoped that the Minister would be able to show that the condition of things which then existed had been improved. Certainly this question deserved a great deal of consideration from those who were charged with thP administra· tion of the department. Time and again the teachers in conference had dealt with the matter, and had conveyed to the Minister their opinion on the subject. It was one of the subjects to be bron,:ht before the annual conference of the Teachers' Union, which was to be held in Bris­bane about Christmas-namely, "That, in the opinion of this conference, some steps to modify the excessive amount of work required from pupil­teachers are urgently needed." One of the edu· cational journals of England said-

The following recommendations, unanimously passed· by a sptcially aupointed committee of one of the school boards in Jinglaud, will giYe some idea of the import­anc0 there attached to the instruction and training of P.Ts.:-

That the board establish a P.1'. centre, to be opened to all elementary scl10ol P.T.s in the district; that can­didates and 1st year P.T.s study ten half-days per week and teach none; 2nd year P.T.s stnfly seven hall'-days and teach three; 3rd year P.'l'.s study five half-days and teach tive: 4th year 1).T.s study four half-days and teach six. }Ir. Harrison said the board was to be con­gratulated on having had unanimously recommer:.ded to them a ~cheme which shmved that they were prepared to conduct their work on intelligent and large-hearted line~.

That proposal had been adopted by some of the school boards in England, and he thought we might profit by the experience of those boards.

Suppl.y. [3 DECEMBER.] Supply. 2211

It was rather an anomalous thing that while they were passing legislation to repress sweating in factories and workshops, a system of sweating sbonld exist in the State schools ot the colony, and be hoped that something would be done without delay to improve the existing state of affairs in the department. Last year, Mr. Ewart, a gentleman whom be admired for his str.aightforward and outspoken utterances, pomted out that some of the inspectors had risen from the position of pupil. teachers.

The PRE;I!IER : It cannot be such a bad system then.

Mr. McDONNELL : They had risen to their present position in spite of the systetn. He understood that in the past the conditions were not so bard as they were at the present time, as there was not so much cramming and grinding. At any rate, when head teachers and assistant teachers were unanimous in rAcommending that some better system should be adopted, he thought the department should endeavour to set the neces,ary machinery in motion to bring about some improved system.

Mr. AIREY was glad that the hem. member for Fortitude Valley bad taken up thi• question, as it was the most vicious part of the educational system. If there was one thing on which all classes and grades of teachers were unanimous it was this pupil·teacher system. He had heard it called semi-slavery. About two years ago Bishop \Vebber, tt gentleman who did not go in for strong language, denounced it on a public platform as nothing but legal sweating. They took boys at fourteen yAars of age as pupil­teachers. They commenced work at 7"30 or 8 o'clock in the morning, and went on till half­past 12. In the metropolitan schools they were very happy if they got half-an-hour for their lunch. Then they went on again till half­past 4 o'clock, and in some cases till 5 o'clock. When they went home, and their troubles were supposed to be over, they had to si udy for two or three hours. It might be said that they bad plenty of holidays; but even on Saturdays they had three or four hours work to do. The result of this system was that a great number of boys broke down under the strain, and worse than that the pupils being put under other boys who were subject to most unhealthy conditions get badgered and driven almost out of their existence. Time and again he had seen parents complain of pupil- teachers knocking their boys about, but the poor little mortals could not be blamed be­cause their nerves were in such a state of irrita­tion that they could not be called human beings at all. Under the Factories Act no person under sixteen was allowed to work overtime, but here the State had a svstem of overtime which was very discreditable: Out of a staff of fifteen it was possible to have ten pupil-teachers, many of whom taught fifty or sixty boys. Inspector Kennecly averaged the number of pupils per pupil-teacher at 43·6, but in the Normal School it was as high as sixty or seventy. So long as the schools were starved to that extent it was no use '"ying that there was capable and efficient instruction. According to the Blue Book there were 2,217 teachers in Queensland, of whom 9:39 were classified, so that there were 43 per cent. of claseified teachers and the rest unclassified. In New South \\Tales there were 65 per cent. of classified teachers, and he sub­mitted that such a great difference was not much to the credit of this colony. In England the system in vogue here h<td been discarded long ag-o, and in Germany it was not allowed at all. He believed the Government were desirous of doing the right thing, and on many occ~sions had acted very well towarrls the Education Department, and if the Minister did not like to

take the word of members of Parliament on the matter in qne,tion, he would suggest that gentlemen of educational standing, like l\lr. Roe or JI.Ir. Cameron, be asked to give their opinion. He should be perfectly satisfied to stand by the result. Edncational efficiency was not a matter of buildinge. It was a matter of having well-trained specialists. He was not complaining uf the wages of pupil­teachers. The boys were well paid-almost too well paid ; but it was simply the hours they worked which was the great grievance. A com­mission was appointed in the old country in 1879, of which Sir Edward Oakley was chairman, and dealing with the subject under discussion they recommended-

rrhat pupil~teachers be not put in sole charge of classes; and that pupil-teachers be allowed three half­dHys per week for study. He t.hought it would be found practicable to 1"odify the very unjust conditions under which pupil-teachers laboured.

Mr. TOLMIE supported the appeal made by the member for Flinders. He did not believe there was any desire on the part uf the Govern­ment to unduly work pupil-teachers, and the reasons why the present conditions existed was because so few people knew the work that was being done. He had served under the depart­ment for sc,me years, and since leaving he had often thought that, if the Government wished to devise a system of punishment by hard labour, they could not do better than convert those they wished to punish into teachers. During the greater part of the time he was in the service the conditions under which pupil-teachers laboured were not so severe as they were at present. The rule existing at tba.t time did not require them to teach thirty-five pupils, and he did not think that pupil-teachers were capable of handling, efficiently, more than fifteen or twenty pupils. It "o happened that the lower clas""" in the State schools con­tained the largest number of pupilR, and, as the higher classes required the best qualified teachers, the consequence was that the lower classes were instructed by those who knew very little about teaching--who had to handle classes of abnormal size. A solution of the difficulty would be found in so altering the regulations as to provide that the work done by one assistant should be equivalent to that done by two pupil-teachers, and if an assi<tant was taken away two pupil­teachers should be sent to ta.ke his place. The conditions, as far as the school work were con­cernecl, would then be much improved. The work of the teacher was not ended at 4 or 5 o'clock, but they had to put in from four to six hours at night studying for "exams." At the end of the day the teacher had practicaily to commence another day's work, but the work had to be overcome, and he had known them stick at it unt1l 1 or 2 in the morning. There was no relaxation at all ; it was one continuous grind.

The PREMIER : How many holidays do they get in the year?

Mr. TOLMIE: Some had to attend half a day on Saturdays, and the first week of the holidays was taken up with examinations.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Do they work harder than their brothers and sisters?

Mr. TOLMIE: Yes; 60 per cent. harder, even ifthe brothers and sisters worked at hard manual labour. It was time these facts were brought under the notice of the Minister in charge of the department, and especially of the Premier, who was one of the most sympathetic heads the department ever had. In putting these facts forward they were not cavilling at the work that was being done. But abuses existed, and they could only be brought home by

2212 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.:; Supply.

men who had had personal experience of them, and his experience was that from growing boy" and girls of fifteen or so, work was exacted that it required two men to do.

:Mr. GIVENS wished to bring under notice thB salaries of teachers of peovisional schools. He did not complain generally about the salaries paid to teachers, only that their salaries w<·re s·.nnetirnes reduced through no fault of their own. Cases had recently come under his notice where the salaries of teachers of provisional schools had been reduced below what was actually a living wage, si:nply be1ause the attendance had fallen below a certain number. Those tEktChers were just as capable as they were before, and all their time was occupied, yet their salaries were rednc8d automatically in accord­ance with the number of pupils. That had occurred in his own electorate in the case of the teacher of the \V elcome Pocket provisional school, where the railway took t.he children c•n to the State school. Her salary had been reduoed to £(i0 or £70, which was not enough to pay for board and lodging and buy the neces­sary articles of clothing. There should be a standard minimum irre,pective of the number cf children attending the "cbool. The automatic reduction was felt by the teachers as a real grievance.

The SECl1ETARYFORAGRIQ1JLTURE: There w..ts a fixed minimum-£70 to £~0 for female provi .• ional school teachers, and £90 to

£110 for male provi,ional school [11'30 p.m.] te <chers. \Vhat the hon. member

said about the attendance falling off applied equally to State schools. And in both cases if the nttendance increased above a certain point the teacher got the benefit. \Vith regard to other matters brought forward by hon. memb, rs who had had pr,;ctical experience-the question of the schedule, the work done hy pnpil-teachers, and so on-although one "as bound to attach a good deal of illlportance to what those hon. members said, it mnst be remembered that the persons who deitlt with the Department of Public Instruction in matters of this sort were mer~ whose oxperience was probably greater than that of the two hon. members who had addressed the Committee. The schedules were arr<~nged by men who had been chosen from amongst the most capable of the teachero; and the opinions of the majority of the inspectors, generally speaking·, were crystallised in the re:;:ulations which they had been called upon to consider.

:VIr. lllcDoNNELL : Do you believe in the present system?

The SECR:l'~TARY :FOR AGRICULTL'RE: He believed the system could be improved if training colleges were established. It had been stated that an enormous number of children had to be controlled by pupil-teachers, and two­thirds of the teachers in schools were pupil­teachers. There were 2,217 teachers in the colony, and of theoe 691 were pupil-teachers­less th J,n one-third; so the statement about the two-thirds was evidently not correct. In 1900, the average number of pupils taught by each teacher was 34'3 in State schools, 20·9 in provisional schools, and :11·3 in all schools. The average number of pupils taught by each teacher in 1899 was :15·6 in the State schools, and 22·2 in the provisional schools, so that this year the proportion of scholars to a teacher bad become somewhat less, and it was by no means correct to say there were fifty or sixty pupils to a teacher. They might decrease the percentage of scholars per teacher by doubling the number of pupil-teachers, but if ~bey did that, when those teachers arrived at maturity, half of them would have no employment. vVas that a desir­able state of affairs? He did not agree with the

contention that the pupil-teachers were hurt by the work that they had to do after they lelt school. He did not regard it as a misfortune for a young man, who wished to get on, to have to work hard, and he did not agree with the hon. member for :B'linders when he spoke of these unfortunate people who had to work all day and far into tbe night. \Vhy the greatest men who had ever lived had heeu tho'e who had studied, and bad found it not work but pleasure to study. If all this study after ordinary hours was to be objected to, they might as well abolish scholarships and all examinations which required more than ordinary application. If studying to ends of that sort was to be condemned as sweat­ing, it was really an indictment against the educational system altogether. He did not think studying to advance oneself or to correct the imperfections of one's education was sweat­ing, and be certainly thought a Y'Jung man would not be the worse for devoting some of bis evening htlllrS to study, instead of to card ulaying, bil­liards, or to doing the block.

lYir . .YicDONNELI,: The hon. gentleman was evidently a strong supporter of the present system. It seemed to him that it would be a good thing if some of the schol:trships and the cra1nmlng were done away Ydth, beeause he was sure that the health of many young people had been destroyed by that sort of thing. As to the pupil-leachers, the hours they worked under tlH present ;ystem had been condemned by seven-eighths of the teachers in Queensland. This question was deserving of serious considera­tion, but as they could get no satisfaction from the Minister, the only thing to do would h£ to move a resolution and take the ;;ense of the House at some fnture time. If the actual facts were placed fairly before the House he was sure that bon. members, or the majority of hon. members, would condemn the present system the pupil-t.eachc:rs worked under.

Mr. AIREY : Referring to the positions and conditions under which provisional school teachers worked, in New South \Vales there «ere no pro­visional school-;, and in Queensland there were 43 p r cent. of classified teachers nnd 57 per cent. of unclassified terwhers ; therefore, the welfare of the nnclassitied teachers in Queens­land was a mattt•r of V· ry serion1"> concern, and the inspectors reported that they did their work very woll. A measure had been passed in the House of Repre.entatives that nr> employee in the Commonwealth should receive less than £104 per annum, and yet the average salary of provisional teacher' in Queenoland was only £83 15s. 7d. Was that a fair salary? Then, again, they were liable to dismissal; they ha? no fixed tenure of office; and very often thetr salaries were reduced through no fault of their own. A provisional school teacher might

bold a position for seven or eight [12 p.m.] years, and do guod work, and yell

receive less than a labonl'er's \\·age; in addition to which there was no per­manency. The majority of them were not able to study for their examinations by them­selves, owing to the fact that they had had little previous training ; and, as there was very little prospect of bettering their position, many of the bht. of them left the service. \Vhile State school teachers left at the rate of li per cent. per annum, prm·isiona 1 school teachers left at the rate of 14 per cent. He knew thttt it was hardly a fitting time to suggest increases in saLry, but some relief might be afforded if they were permitted to take the classification examin­ation in three instalments, and there were no reductions in salary.

The CHAIRMAN: Under Standing Order 171, I call upon the hon. member for Lockyer to relieve me in the chair.

Suppl,y. [3 DECEMBER.] Suppl,1;'· ~213

Mr. ARllfSTRONG took the chair accordingly. Mr. TOLMIE quite believed th11t the avera~e

attendance right through the •chools might be thirty-one, as stated by the Minister; but in a school of 300 pupils the fifth and sixth classes together might not contain more than thirty pupils, leaving the remaininf( 2/0 to the other four classes; and those junior classes were generally taught by the younger teachers, although some of the inepectors advocated the best tt•achers being given to the little ones. That sta tP of affairs showed that there was ·1 gre>tt de~! of work thrown on the pupil-teachers. Another point that he wished to refer to was that he wa;; led to believe that there had not been an inspector,' conferenc~ for three or four years, and he thought that at least there should be a conference every year. It would be seen that nearly eYery inspector r'cported that the schedule of work had not been overtaken.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It would be a good plan if the inspectors could meet in conference every year, but that would necessitate the appointment of about three more ins])ectors. There bad been a conference about f01!r years ago, when all the regulations and school work had been paesed in review; and, although there was not an annual conferencf', the iuspectors were invited t:> send in every year any suggestions they had to offer to the depart­ment, and those snggesti,,ns were listened to. '\Vith reference to the hopP expressed by some hon. members that it would not be necessary to reduce s"laries, no matter how small the attend­ance might be, that was the expression of a veiy benevolent intention, but he did not think it was pos~ible to carry it out. They bad to consider the gener..tl good of the community, as well as the position of tlw teacher, and there must be a minimum attt·ndaoce to ju-tiiy the State paying a certain amount for the edncntion of the children, but he had no doubt that in cases where the attendance diminiehed throu!'h no fault on the ].Jart of the teacher the department would endeavour a,-; far as it coul<l tu vrovide for the teacher when a vacancy occurred.-

Mr. AIREY : \Vhat about the examination of provisional ::;cbool teachers?

The SECRETARY FORJ~.GRIOULTURE: He thought the request in regard to that was a very reaeonable one, anJ had no doubt it would he considered by those immediately responsible.

Question put and passed.

SECOXDARY EDUCATIOX.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE moved that £3,877 he granted for secrmr:lary education. This inclnded grants for bursaries, grammar school scholarships, and exhibitions to universities. Last year tbere were six bun;aries granted to l::oys and two to girls. There were thirty-six scholarships, three-fourths of which were granted to boys and one-fonrth to girls. The exhibitions to universities numbered three. Provisi"n was also m"de in the vote for a grant in aid to the U nh·ersity Extension Committee, of which the Chiaf .Justice was president.

Mr. TOLMIE: A few year,; ago the dPpart­ment r,ffered 120 scholar"hips, and that system waR an excellent one. It afforded an oppor­tunity fnr secondary education to many pupils who would otherwise have not been able to go tn a grammar school. For some unexplained reason, two 0r three years ago an alteration wai'S made in the system, with the intention of bene­fiting the children of Queensland, but it bad not had that result, as under that system fewer pnpils had the advantage of a secondary educa­tion. He understood that the burRaries made the difference, but thought it should be possible to retain the bursaries, and revert to the old

system of granting 120 schola.rships, which was a much better one than that now exieting. He held that the time had arrived when the Govern­ment should take up the work of secondary education as well as that of prim:uy education, and that the grammar schLols should be filled with pupils drafted from State schools.

The SECRET-~RYFOR AGRICULTURE: Superficially the statement of the hon. member had a good basis, but when 128 scrwlarships were given the minimum number of marks had to be reduced to 33 per cent. If iiO per cent. had been the minimum, half of the 128 would have won prizes. The old system allotted scholarships r.o distl'icts, but that acted unfairly, because many pupils were unable to take ad van­tage of what they earned. On the whole, although less scholarships were now given, the sa.rne .unount of money \vas spent and more good was being done.

Mr. MACARTNEY (Tomcong) suggested tlw advisability of awarding ce~tificates _ot merit. to thnse candidates who obtamed a htgh number of mark,; but did not succeed in winning scholar­ships. Certificates of that kind would. be of considerable u>e to young p•~·ople who desired to enter upon the bu<inrss of life.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE was not prepared to give a pnsiti,-e rP[Jly. The number nf rnarks won at the examination \Vere invariably supplied on request, and th:ere would be no objection to statin!' on a certificate the number of marks won. He had no doul•t the department would cont<ider the hon. member's suggestion.

Mr. AIREY: Last year there were208 scholar­ship candidates. T\venty-seven bo,-s gained prizes and of those twenty-two came 1 mm Bris­bane.' Of the nine successful female candidates six came from Brisbane. It wae absurd to suppmE> that all the bright b"ys and girls were centred in Brisbane, but the result was accou .1 • d for by the ,pecial class sysi·"'m which _exi'led in the metropolitan schools. A boy rmght no' be a bright boy, but by studiously cr::tmmillg hin; for a couple ·of years he could he mack to wm a scholarship. They found that the '1\,wn-ville Grammar School had only one scholarship boy, Rnckbampton two, and TtWW(IOnlht nne. ~he existing evil could be avoided by adoptmg the London system, where extra instruction was not allowed, and everY candl( :ate went to the exmnination on his or her rnerits. That was a direct distortion of the int,.ntinns of the Act, which undoubtedly were that scholar-

ship::; wrre to be given to boys and [12"30 a. m. J girls qf great !'hilities. If the country

gran11nar schoolfi wer0 t() have a chance something ought to be done. Some years ago it wa,; decided that scholarships should b~ allotted to certain districts. That system did not wnrk well, b,_,cause thl::'re wa.s 11u 1ninirnnn1 of marks fixed. Then there was the question of grammar schonh. The rep(rrt :-vas nn!, cnmpletP, Ipswich and :\Iaryborough bemg onntted. ~e e'timated that in all the gra:nmar schools m the colony there were 800 pupil~, who cost the country £17 per bead ; yet there was only one- the Brisbane Boys' Grarnmar School­which could be sair:l tu be giving r.he country nnrthing- like a fair return for the money. At the Rnckhampton Boyc' Grammar School last ye::~r there were sixty pupils, aud at the Girls'. Grammar SchPol 140. At the Toowoomba Grammar School there were only thirty-one pnpils, and at the Townsville Grammar Scho?l fifty. Therefore, for the last year every boy m the Toowoom ba Grammar School cost the country £32 per annum, and at the Townsville Grammar School £20 per annnm. He submitted that the matter ought to be seen into, or else, as far as the

2214 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl,y.

general public were concerned, they might just as well be w1ped out altogether. It was hig" time the House looked into t!Je question uf the expenditure on grammar schools. He would ask whether anything- conld not be done with regard to scholarships in ontside districts?

The SECRETARY FOR AGliiCULTURE said the subject was a very difficnlt one. The present system was deemed unsatisfactory in certain quarters, and he would recommend to the !Ylinis~er to take recent developments into cons1deratwn, and see whether anything could be dune in the shape of a compromise. ~uesti•m put and passed.

SCHOOLS OF ARTS.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE moved that £16,850 be granted for schools of arts. Of that sum, it woulcl be observed, there was only £4,000 devoted for schools of arts at the rate of 10s. for every £1 subscribed, 'Lnd not to exceed £300. The rest of the vote consisted of grants in aid of technical education to various places, such aid not to exceed £1 for £1 sub­scribed locally, nor any grant to exceed the vote.

:Mr. RYLAND: The amount down for Gympie this year was only £500, the same as Ja,t year. He thought the amount raised locally this year would be over £700, and he thought £1,000 should have been put down this year, the same as for Rockharnpton.

Tbe SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: If the bon. member had pointed out a few months ago that a larg·er sum "ould be required, and that larger snm was not put on the Esti­mates, it would be an oversight or someone would be to blall1e.

Mr. RYLAXD : I did that. The SECR~~TARY FOR AGRICULTURE:

He was informed that a larger sum had been spent lnst year than was provided on the Esti­mates, and th~ arrangement made last year with regard to subsidi,in" the amount raised in Gym pie w .. uld be made again this year.

Mr. TOLYUE was glad to know that within recent monthH the department bad decided upon a certain form of inspection in connection with technical colleges.

Question put and passed.

i\IUSEUM, BRISBANE.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE moved that £1,990 be granted for the :\1useum, Brisbane. Tbe amount was the same as last year.

(<tlnestion put and passed.

ORPHA!S'AGES.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE movPd that £2"1,02~ he granted for orphanages. There was" slight incre:Jse on the vote of last ye:tr owing t,CJ the increased number of orphans.

:Yfr. BROWNE referred to the promises made in the p•st wicl1 regard to est1thlishing a new system of de1tling with State children, and to the suggestion previously made that the present inspector, Mr. ·waiter Scott-or some other official- should be sent to South Australia Victoria, and New South \Vales to inquir~ mto the modes of dealing with t.be State children there, This department had to be con­ducted under an obsolete system, and it was a moral impossibility for the inspector or his staff to carry out that work thoroughly. He would like the hon. gentleman t" state whether the Government had had any idea of drawing up some up-to-date system of dealing with the State children?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTURE: Two Bills had been preparecl to consolidate th" Ac:s which bore upon the subject of deserted children, but that would make very much difference to the work of .i\.1r. Scott. He would recommend, whoever might be the :Minister in cl-mrge of the department, to pass a Bill embody­ing all the latest legish1tiun in Australia on the subject.

:Mr. BROWNE pointed out that it was pro­mised some two years ago that all the informa­tion with regard to the boarding-out system should be laid on· the table of the House, but they were asked to pa"'' the vote with no more information as to the wo,y in which that system was working out here and in the other colonies than they had bad in former years. They shonld at least have had oome information as to how this money was being spent-whether it was being spent to the advantage of the children.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: The information with regard to the different systems in Australia could be ea><ily obtained by reference to the reports of the departments in the different colonies. If the hon. member meant that sufficient information was not sup­plied by the Orphanage Department, his complaint was pot justifiable. The Orphanage Depart­ment published a very full report, and he was prepared to give the bon. member any informa· tion at his disposal.

Mr. BROWNE: He bad not said anything about the Government giving· these reports, for he thought he could give more information from the last orphanage report than the hon. gentle· man could. The Government made a distinct prorni:-:;e that inforination dl:'alinlS with the vvork­ing uf these departments in the other colonies would be furnh•hed to members, and they had broken their promises over and over again. The information be wanted was not forLhcoming, and that was what be complained about.

Tbe :::mCRETARY FORAGRICuLTU!iE: :?:\ o promise was made by the Government: it was only a suggestion that was thrown out. However, provided 11r. Scott or some other official could be spared to go to the other colonies, he wunlcl 1ecommend to the Minister for Public Instruction that be should g-o.

Question put and passed.

The PREMIER moved that the Acting­Chairman leave the chair, report progress, and ask leave to t3it again.

The ATTOR::'<EY-GENERAL: He wished to make a personal statement with regard to what had taken place earlier in the debate. He was not in the House when the leader of the Op~osition introduced the subject of Bible read· ing in State schools, bm he came into the Chamber after the hon. member h~d finished reading a letter which appeared in a ::"forthern paper. He was not aware what the hon. member was referring to at the time, but when he came in he thought he was referring to some statement attributed to him in connection with the intention of carrying out a plebiscite. But since he had looked at the letter the hon. member quoted from, he found that there v.as no refer­ence there to his having had anything to do with the carrying out of that plebiscite, and under the circumstances the '>'Ords that he had used in reference to the writer of that letter-as having made an improper and untruthful statement­would hardly be justified. Tbe secretary of the league in Brisbane umst have misunderstood what he (Mr. Rutledge) had said, for he told that gentle­man that he, as a member of the Government, was in absolute ignorance of any plebiscite being

Lffe A)suranre [4 DECEMBER.]

taken in six towns or any towns in the colony on the mattet· and certainly had not undertaken to say anything as to what the Government knew or did not know. He had simply 'uggested that, inasmuch as it now appf'Qred that there was no plebiscite being taken in six towns only, the Prmnier'l'1 answer was correct, but that with reference to this he could not undertake to make an exnhtnation for the Premier. He wished to with<lraw the statement he had made, which was hardly courteous or proper, knowing as he did now that he had seen the nature of the letter that the statement was not an improper and untruthful one, but the statement was certainly an inaccurate one.

Question put and passed.

The House resumed. The AcTING 0HAimiAN reported progress, and the Committee obtained leave to sit again at the next sitting of the House.

The House adjourned at thirteen minutes past 1 o'clock.

Companies Bill. 2215