Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 1 NOVEMBER 1892

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1688 Message from the Council. [ASSEMBLY.] Swanbanlc Galleries, <;f-a., Bill.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

Tuesday, 1 November, 1892.

Question.-Swanbank Collieries, Limited, Railway Bill: _ll1irst reading.-Union Trustee Company of Australia J

Limited, Act Amendment Bill: 'l'hird reading.­Supply: Report from Committee.-Harbour Boards Bill: Legislative Council's message; Oommittee.­IIarbour Dues Bill: Second reading.-~'fessages

from the Legislative Council: Companies (Winding­up) Bill ; J\Iarsupials Destruction Bill; Justices Act Amendment BilL-Federal Council Referring Bill (Queensland), No 2: Committee.-Pastoral Leases Extension Bill: First reading.-Supply: Resumption of Committee; Committee.- Pastoral Leases Ex­tension Bill: Recomn1endation by the Governor: First reading.-A.djournment.

The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

QUESTION. Mr. LITTLE, in the absence of Mr. O'Connell,

asked the Secretary for Lands-1. On what date instructions were issued to throw

open a portion of the resumed half of JI.Ionduran run to selection?

2. Have such instructions been carried out? The SECRETARY FOR LANDS (Hon.

A. S. Cowley) replied-1. On the 22nd 1\Iarch, 1892. 2. rrhirty portions, averaging about 160 acres eacb in

area, have been mapped out and plans received frmn the Surveyor-General on lOth instant. They will be proclaimed open to both conditional and unconditional selection on and after 5th December next.

SW ANBANK COLLIERIES, LIMITED, RAILWAY BILL.

On the motion of Mr. BARLOW, leave was given to introduce a Bill to authorise Swanbank Collieries, Limited, to construct a branch line of rail way connecting with the branch line of railway constructed by Lewis Thoma~ on the Southern and ·western Railway.

FIRST READING. Mr. BARLOW presented the Bill, and moved

that it be read a first time. Question put and passed.

Harbour Dues Bill. [1 NoVEMBER.] Harbou'l' Dues Bill. 1689

UNION TRUSTEE COMPANY OF AUSTRALIA, LIMITED, ACT AMEND­MENT BILL.

THIRD READING. On the motion of Mr. POWERS, this Bill

was read a third time, passed, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council for their concurrence, by me&sage in the usual form.

SUPPLY. REPORT FROM Co~D!ITTEE.

Mr. MORGAN, a' Chairman of Committees, prpsented a report from the Committee of Supply, covering the resolutions passed in connection with the Estimaks-in-Chief-Departments of Postmaster-General and Auditor-General.

Resolutions read a first time. On the motion of the COLONIAL TREA­

SURER (Hon. S1r T. Mcllwraith), the resolu­tions were read a second time, and severally agreed to.

HARBOUR BOARDS BILL. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL'S J\!IESSAGE.

On the Order of the Day being read for the consideration in committee of the Legislative Council's message of the 27th ultimo in con-nection with this Bill, '

The COLONIAL TREASURER said : Mr. Speaker,-I move that you do now leave the chair.

Question put and passed. COMMITTEE.

On clause 181-" Proceedings on confirmation of certificate "-

The COLONIAL TREASURER said the Legislative Council put a different construction upon that clause from what he did, and he moved that the Committee do not insist on their disagreement to the amendment of the Council.

Question put and passed. On clauses 203 and 204-" Rates authorised for

harbour purposes to be raised as provided by Valuation and Rating Act" and " Harbour Board to have access to municipal rate book "-

The COLONIAL TREASURER moved that the Committee do not insist on their disagree­ment to the omission of those clauses as pro­posed by the Council. The only effect of that would be that they would have to insert those provisions in each special Bill.

Question put and passed. On clause 209-" Moneys, how to be dealt

with"-The COLONIAL TREASURER moved that

the Committee do not insist on their disagree­ment to the amendment on that clause, which amendment simply g:we power to sign cheques as well after as at the meetings of the board.

Question put and passed. The House resumed ; and the CHAIRMAN

reported that the Committee do not insist on their disagreement to the amendments on which the Legislative Council insist.

On the motion of the COLONIAL TREA­SURER, the Biii was ordered to be returned to the Legislative Council, with a message to that effect.

HARB01JR DUES BILL. SECOND READING.

The COLONIAL TREASURER said : Mr. Speaker,-The Harbour Boards Bill having reached its final stage, and no difficulty existing now between the two Chambers with respect to it, the time is meet for the introduction of a sup-

plementary or complementary Bill, which would not have been required had the provisions of the Harbour Boards Bill been adopted at once by the local authorities and others connected with the various ports and harbours of the colony. It became apparent to me some time since-and, in fact, I always ll,llticipated-that some mild coercion, such as is contained in this Bill, would be necessary to induce the local authorities interested to make a commencement under the Harbour Boards Bill.

Mr. POWERS: Do you call it "mild"?

The COLONIAL TREASURER : It is a gentle sort of squeeze to get them into the right path. Hon. members, and especially those who have held office in the Treasury, must know that if there is a difficulty m the world it is to get the work of harbour boards undertaken by local • authorities so long as the <1overnment are pre­pared to do it for them. Their theory with respect to harbour boards is that they should do all the work of managing the harbour, and the Government should find the money. That is a theory with which I have always disagreed, and the House, in passing the Harbour Boards Bill, have adopted my opinion and paved the way fora better state of things. The main source of revenue under the Harbour Boards Bill will be the harbour dues. As those dues will have to be enacted some day, I have thought the pre­liminary step might be taken now; so that we can enact harbour dueo~ at the present time, making provision that the dues collected for each harbour shall be put to a special account, and the money in the meantime spent, if the Government should think the expenditure necessary, on each par­ticular harbour for which the dues are collected, the balance in each case to be handed over to the boards when they come into existence. In this way the House will be doing the preliminary work, which the boards would have to do under the Bill we have passed. This Bill provides that the dues on all goods imported from abroad shall be at a certain rate, and the dues on coastal traffic-that is, traffic from port to port inside the colony-shall be one-half that rate, and shall be enacted at the port of call. The amount it is proposed to raise has been arrived at after very careful study of the different schedules in the Australasian colonies, and it is based primarily upon a rating of 2s. per ton on all goods imported from abroad and exported from the colony. abroad, with the ex­ception of coal ; and all coastwise traffic half those rates. No reason can be given why ships laden with coal should not pay for the accommo­dation they get from the harbour boards any more than ships laden with wool, or sugar, or any other materials, except this: It will prevent ships leaving here, as they often do, in ballast to load coal in ports of the other colonies, and it will encourage the coal traffic. That is why coal is left free. The rates, according to the Bill, are sometimes put upon the hogshead, sometimes on the puncheon, and sometimes on the case; but they are all based upon the rate of 2s. a ton for either measurement or weight. The first three or four clauses provide for the manner in which the dues shall be collected. Clause 4 is for the most part a transcript of the Customs Regulation Act. Clause 7 makes provision that all moneys received under the authority of this Act shall be placed to the credit of the trust fund, and the moneys so received in respect of the several harbours shall be placed under sepamte heads, to be called "The ' A' Harbour Account," or as the- case may be, naming the harbour in respect of which they were received. That is plain enough. Clause 8 says that the moneys standing to the credit of the harbour account of each harbour shall be applied by the

1690 Harbour Dues Bill [.ASSEMBLY.] Baroour Dues Bill.

Colonial Treasurer for the purposes of the management and improvement of the harbour in such manner as may be from time to time authorised by Parliament. Clause 9 provides that when a board is formed the trust fund shall be handed on to the board so constituted. This Bill, when it comes into operation, will pro­vide a revenue which I hope will prove suffi­cient to keep more than our present plant at work. I hope to see some of our costly !llachinery which is at present out of use put mto use by the money that will be co!lecterl. under this Bill. It is very difficult to make an estimate of the amount of money that will be received from these harbour dues, because there have been no statistics kept in the colony that will throw any light whatever on the subject. The only dues of this kind paid at present are wharfage dues, and as the wharves are in the possession of private individuals, there is no mean;; of collecting information from them; and any that could be collected from them would be guesswork. However, there is a means of esti­mating the probable amount from a general view of statistics ; and the Collector of Customs has entered into calculations connected with the income and population of New Zealand, and the port dues there, and Victoria, and the port dues in that colony. He took the tonnage of the port of Melbourne, making allowance for the difference in dues and the amount collected, and applied it to the tonnage here. Of course there is great difficulty in applying any rule, and at most it would be a calculation of probabilities. The amount varies from £35,000 to £52,000, and I think it is a fair conclusion to come to that the revenue here is ikely to be about £45,000 a year. At best that would be de­scribed as a fair guess, being based on facts that may be rather wide of the mark. The cost to the Government of collecting the money will be very little. It is estimated hy the Collector of Customs that the present staff, with some aid from the shipping office, which will be available, will do the whole work. I think the Bill is very necessary at the present time. I believe the House is thoroughly sincere in its desire to see harbour improvements effected, and believing in the principle of the Harbour Boards Bill I think hon. members will agree this is a wise way of hastening that measure coming into operation. I move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr. NELSON said: Mr. Speaker,-I cannot say I see any great necessity for this Bill. The principal objection that I see to it is that we impose taxation in a certain direction and do not know whether the proceeds will ever be required or not.

The COLONIAL TREASURER : Of course the hon. member knows that if this is not passed a\1 the dredging plant at present in operation will be stopped. The hon. member must thoroughly understand that. That was thrashed out on the previous Bill. There are no funds for carrying on work.

Mr. NELSON : But the point is this: Sup· posing taxation is imposed, and funds collected, those funds are to be paid to a trust account, which will keep on accumulating until something happens. What is to happen is that harbour trusts will be formed. Supposing the trust is never formed, what is to become of the money?

The COLONIAL TREASURER : This Bill comes into operation the moment it is passed.

Mr. NELSON: In that case I do not see how the harbour trusts are to' benefit much by it. The taxation, first of all, is imposed for' the benefit of harbour trusts to be formed; but in the meantime the funds collected are to be dis­bursed by the Treasurer. That seems a curious

way of doing business. I understand that tax­ation is to be imposed immediately, and that the money so derived is to be placed to a fund, and the Treasurer is to operate on it at once. Is that so?

The COLONL\L TREASURER : Yes.

Mr. NELSON: What is the use of putting the moneys into a fund?

The COLONIAL TREASURER : The separate accounts are for separate harbours.

Mr. NELSON: \Vhen the harbour trusts are really established, what position will they be in? All moneys standing to the credit of the fund are to be handed over, but the Treasurer in the meantime has spent all the money. Really there will be no funds at all.

The Hox. J. R. DICKSON said : Mr. Speaker,-Having passed the Harbour Boards Bill, I think the Treasurer is quite right in endea­vouring to infuse some life into the idea of har­bour trusts, because undoubtedly, unle~s there is some scheme of taxation, I take it the Har­bour Boards Bill will be a dead letter. It is intended, I take it, to force the hand of the local authorities; and while, of course, we do not view with equanimity increased taxation, at the same time this is an object to which taxation may fairly be directed. Although the Bill is of a tentative character, yet it seems a good way of dealing with the question. The Treasurer cam;ot give endowments, and therefore he must provide some means of raising revenue. I am afraid that the total amount receivable under the Bill will be unsatisfactory--that is to say, in large ports like Brisbane, Rockhampton, Maryborough, and Townsville a considerable amount of revenue may be pr.ovided; but the small ports will be at a great disadvantage. It so happens that some of the smailest ports are the most expenoive to keep in order and improve; notably, the Pioneer River. I do not suppose the returns, under this Bill, from Mackay will furnish an amount sufficient to make any extensive im­provements in that p~rt. The same m~1y ?e said of N ormanton, with a bar seven miles m length. Certainly no revenue from that port will keep a dredge employed cutting through that bar. I do not make these statements to dis­courage the attempt to provide revenue or to stimulate the formation of harbour trusts, but to show that some of the smaller ports will not benefit to a great extent. This Bill seems not to provide sufficient moneys to undertake those larger improvements which have been proceeded with from time to time. Of course we should draw a distinction between the absolute necessity of keeping the waterway open and making im­provements such as gTaving docks and other works of an extensive character; but to keep the dredging plant partially employed in keeping the waterways open will be, on the whole, a good work. I dare say the Government will consider, when they have had time to observe the revenue accruing under the Bill, whether it would not be well to associate two or three ports together­expend money on two or three of the minor ports, so that they may not be wholly neglected. I hope the Treasurer will not confine hims~l£ strictly to revenue which may be gathered m under this Bill. It will be a great pity if our waterways are allowed to silt up, and that our dredge plant should become depreciated through lying idle. In the meantime undoubtedly the Bill will add to the general taxation of the colony and I only hope that the expectations of the' Treasurer as to fnrcing the hands of the local authorities, and inducing them to engage in the larger work of harbour trusts, will be realised. In that light I give my support to the Bill.

Harbour Dues Bill. [1 NovEMBER.] Harbou,r Dues Bill. 1691

Mr. BLACK said: Mr. Speaker,-Thereis no doubt that, in order to give effect to the Har· bour Boards Bill, it is necessary that some Bill of this sort should be introduced; otherwise the dredging plant, which cost an immense sum of money, will be lying comparatively idle in the very near future. Although we have not the exact figures before u.s, I understand that the amount which is expected to be realised under this Bill is about £45,000 a year. I find that the expenditure from loau vote on this work last year was nearly £62,000, showing a deficiency of some £17,000 between the two amounts. We may assume, perhaps, that the expenditure will not be carried on at the same rate as last year; still there will be a deficiency. But there is another matter I should like to have some information about. Clause 8 provides that-

" The moneys standing to the credit of the harbour accouut of each harbour shall be applied by the Colonial Treasurer for the purposes of the management and improvement of the harbour in such manner as may be from time to time authorised by Parliament." If the management and improvPment of harbours is given into the hands of the harbour boards, will it be nece,sary to apply to Parliament to sanction any work that they may contemplate?

The COLONIAL TREASURER: No. Mr. BLACK: Then why should the improve·

ment of harbours have to be from time to time authorised by Parliament?

The COLONIAL TREASURER : This is while it is in the hands of the Tre:~surer. When the harbour trusts take up the work the money will be handed over to them. .

Mr. BLACK : What is the harbour account? Is it the amount collected under this Act when it comes into force, or will there be added to it the amount standing to the credit of particular harbours in the loan votes?

The COLONIAL TREASURER: You will find what the harbour account is in clause 7.

Mr. BLACK : Clause 7 only refers to moneys received "under the authority of this Act." But in order to make this Act acceptable, I certainly think the House should not lose sight of the amount standing to the credit of the different harbours on the loan votes. That amount is £105,000. Take the case of Brisbane. There is a sum of £14,000 standing to its credit in that fund. What is to become of that ; is it going to be confiscJ,ted? The amount expended on the Brisbane River last year was £12,940; so that the amount standing to its credit on the loan vote is practi~ally sufficient to give it a fair start in addition to the harbour dues to be collected under this Bill. To the port of Mackay there is standing to its credit a sum of £39,000. The hon. member for Bulimba mentioned Mackay as a case in point where they would probably not raise sufficient revenue under the Bill to carry on their harbour improvements, which, if carried on at all, must be of a very expensive character; anditmust be remembered that the bulkofthedues paid in Mackay will be only at the rate of 1s. per ton, consisting, as the trade there does, mainly of merchandise transhipped from the Pioneer River to Brisbane. One shilling will be collected at Mackay, and the other 1s. at Brisbane when the same sugar arrives here. I have tried to calculate what the probable income at that port will be under this Bill, and I estimate that it will be about £1,600 a year. If that is to be added to the amount standing to the credit of that port, the people there would be justified in endeavouring to solve the verv difficult problem which no engineer has been able up to the present time to solve satisfactorily. But the Treasurer did not explain to the House what is to become of this balance amounting to £155,000.

\Vhen the original Bill was passing through we were given to understand that the special Bills referring to particular ports would be discu,sed on their merits, together with the question of their endowments in various forms. I do not know whether the Treasurer is prepared with any of those special Bills.

The COLONIAL T1:tEASURER: Whenever there is the slightest form of an offer I shall be prepared to bring in a Bill.

Mr. BLACK : According to clause 8 of the original Bill, I take it that the duty of estab· lishing harbour boards is one which devolves upon tht' Government in the first instance-th>tt they are to take some steps towards their initiation.

The COLONIAL TREASURER : This is one.

Mr. BLACK : This is supposed to be a general Bill dealing with the principle on which revenue is to be derived for carrying on harbour works. That may be so, but it appears to me that it is a sort of general scheme of additional taxation, in order to bolster up the consolidated revenue of the colony. The money is to be placed to a trust fund. It will be some time before the harbour boards are established, and in the meantime the consolidated revenue is being increased to the extent of 2s. per ton· on all goods going out of or coming into the colony. That is very unsatisfactory. The amounts stand· ing to the credit of the loan fund for the different harbours should, at all events, form a nucleus for the management of those harbours. Take the case of Townsville. There is a sum of £4,671 standing to the credit of that harbour under the heading of " loan balances," but there is a very large area of land which could be reclaimed at Townsville, and, if that were given as an endow­ment, the merchants of that place would feel justified in at once taking advantage of the Act; and the same thing applies to other places. I object to this Bill if it is not to be followed up by some other Bills which will enable the operations of the principal Act to be effective at once, and not allow our dredging plant to lie rotting in the river, as it will if special harbour Bills are not introduced this session. I know the difficulty of the Treasurer, seeing this is the end of the session ; but no collection of due" should be made until the Government first of all establish har· bour trusts. They are the people to collect this revenue. Let them get to work at once; but it is unfair to the colony, and to the constitu· encies having harbours and rivers which must be improved, to collect the dues, which will amount to a considerable sum, and pay them into the consolidated revenue fund, and with no certainty as to when those money; can be made available for the improvement of the harbours and rivers.

Mr. PAUL said: Mr. Speaker,-! hope I shall be in order in making a few remarks on the management of harbours. When I was up the :Fitzroy.River the other day, I was told that a certain leading light bad been taken away, and a most experienced captain informed me that, in consequence, steamers cannot proceed up the river now with safety. As a Central member, interested in the port of Rockhampton, I hope there will be an expression of opinion here to arrest the proposed action of the Government. I hope that the Southern members will assist the Central members, who are in a minority here, in seeing justice done. ·

The SPEAKER said: The hon. member is not discussing the Bill before the House, or any­thing connected with the Bill. The hon. member is discussing the administration of the Harbour Department as it is now carried on. That is a matter which might reasonably have been brought forward when the estimates relating tot he Harbour Department were under consideration ;

1692 Harbour Dues Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Harbour Dues Bill.

but the Bi!l bef_ore the R~use provides for the manner m whwh a fund IS to be raised for ~he management and improvement of harbours m future.

The H?N. P. PERKINS said : Mr. Speaker, :-I submit ~hat the hon. member for Leichhardt IS approachmg that subject--

The SPEA~E.El: ~have p~inted out that the hon. member Is not m order in discussino- the P':esent a:dministration of the department." The Bill provides me am by which that administration can be carried on in the future.

Mr. PAUL .said: llir. Speaker,-If I under­stan~ !he Enghsh language, this Bill is to make provisiOn for the management of harbours and the most important item in the manaa-em~nt of harbours is lights. I am very sorry "if I have transgressed the rules of debate. No member has asserted himself more than I have done not· as a p_ar?chi!'l member, but as one who is desirous of ass!stmg m the good government of the whole of th1s cou':try. I have been a sailor, and I know what hghts are. I feel safe in going along the coast when there are lights, and I desire to enter my protest against the action of the Government.

The SPEAKER: I must again call the hon. member's !'ttention to the Bill before the House. I have pomted out that the hon. member was not discussing the. Bill,_and I ~ust insist upon the ho~. me~ber d1scu~c;mg the B1ll if he wishes to contmue h1s remarks.

M;. PAUL: \V ell, Mr. Speaker, all I have to .say 1s that the Government have no business whatever to do what they have done--

The COLONIAL TREASURER: The hon. mem~er does not know what he is talking about. The hght has not been removed.

Mr. Mc1IASTER said: Mr. Speaker -I look upon this Bill somewhat in the same ~anner as the ho:n. member for Bulimba. The Government have mtroduced it to force the hands of the local authorities or the chambers of commerce and it is desirable that the Bill should be intro: duced. I was rather surprised at the remarks of the hon. member for Mackay, when he said that these dues would go into the consolidated revenue fund, and there would be no way of g~tting the money again. The preamble of the B1ll states that the Government will collect the dues until such time as harbour boards have been constituted in the several harbours of the colony, so that the money collected will be paid in~o a _special account for each harbour. The obJect IS to allow our plant to be made use of. As . to the loan balances to the credit of the varwus harbours, I am afraid a great deal of the bal~nces exio~ only on paper, and our water highways w1ll be closed up if they d~pend upon that money. It is better to dis­tribute the charge upon all goods imported and exported than to levy only Uf)on the properties alongside the different rivers and harbours. \Vhen the trusts are constituted the Treasurer will hand over the whole of the f~nds and either plant or other endowment such as was spoken of when the principal Act ;,as under consideration; and until local harbour trusts are formed, this Bill allows the Government to step in and act. I think it is desirable that our water highwa~s should be_kept clear, and that, I under­stand, Is the deRire of the Government in introducing this Bill. There is no likelihood of any. harbour trust being appointed during this sesswn, and the Government are acting wisely in making provision for the maintenance of our ports until such time as harbour trusts are formed for that purpose. ·when trusts are appointed the Government will h~nd over everything to them; at any rate, that IS what I understood the

Treasurer to state when speaking on the Harbour Boards Bill, and in the interjections he made on this Bill. There is no denying the fact that if our rivers are not kept clear the reputation of our ports will suffer; and I prefer to see a revenue raised in the manner proposed by this measure, rather than by a rate under the Valuation Act passed two years ago. I shall support the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. POWERS said: Mr. Speaker,-When the Treasurer moved the second reading of this Bill, he termed it a sort of mild coercion, I presume to compel harbour trusts to be formed ; but we now learn that this mild coercion means .£45,000 per annum additional taxation. Will not all ports be taxed under this Bill? Will not thqse ports which cannot form harbour trusts, and are not likely to be able to do so for many years to come, have to pay this taxation-such, for instance, asMaryborough, Gladstone, Bowen, and Cairns? A great quantity of goods are shipped to Brisbane and then to Maryborough. \Vi!! they not practically be charged 3s. a ton-2s. per ton on coming from foreign ports, and ls. per ton when transhipped to Maryborough or other ports in the colony ?

The COLONIAL TREASURER: The sche­dule provides that they shall only pay one-half at the first port.

Mr. PO\VEUS : They will have to pay again on transhipment to other ports. It is provided that these duties are to he paid into a special fund in connection with the harbours where they are collected. But what prospect is there of a place like Gladstone forming a harbour trust? And will that port not be taxed for reveuue which they will not be able to use for some time? The Maryborough Chamber of Commerce had a meeting recently, at which they decided that they could not raise enough by taxation for a separate harbour board, and they wanted to know whether Bundaberg would not ]oin with them. I believe that this Bill will cause the people of Brisbane to form a harbour trust, and it is quite right to tax them and others who are in a position to form trusts ; but it is not right to tax those portions of the colony which are not in a position to appoint harbour boards. It is said that they are protected by the provision which requires the money so raised to be placed to the credit of a certain account, but we have heard quite enough about these separate accounts in connection ;vith railways and the Polynesian fund. There IS a sum of £450,000 standing to the credit of the ~ia 1'ecta, but though it appears on the books, and has been obtained from the Eng­lish creditors for that specific purpose, it has been used for the Cairns Railway. Again, a certain sum was apportioned for the Biggenden and Gaynd!'h Railway, and if you ask the Secretary for Railways where that money is, he will tell you that it is not in the Treasury. I am afraid that the same thing will occur in connection with these harbour dues ; they will be paid with the view of having sufficient money when a harbour trus~ is formed, but when the money is called for It will be gone. I contend that under this measure those ports which are not in a position to form harbour trusts will be unfairly treated. The Treasurer stated that this increased taxation would be collected at very small expense, and spent on the harbours. How, then, will it force Brisbane to form a harbour trust? But the chief thing I see in the Bill is that the people of the colony will have to pay, through their ports, additional taxation to the extent of .£45,000.

The HoN. I'. PJ<JRKINS said: Mr. Speaker,­I am not going to say a word in opposition to this measure, because it is a sequel to the Harbour Boards Bill, but it is strange that when an hon. member stands up here to speak in--

Harbour Dues Bill. [1 NoVEMBER.] Harbour Dues Bill. 1693

The SPEAKER: The hon. member is not in order.

The HoN. P. PERKINS: What for? Mr. McMASTER : Sit down. The HoN. P. PERKINS: Who are you telling

to sit down?

The SPEAKER : Will the hon. member be good enough to take his seat? The hon. mem­ber, I understand, wishes to complain of my ruling the hon. member for Leichhardt out of order.

The HoN. P. PERKINS: You have not heard me.

The SPEAKER : If the hon. member wished to complain of my ruling then, he should have moved, at once, that it be disagreed to.

The HoN. P. PERKINS: Certainly not.

The SPEAKER : The hon. member cannot complain of my rulil;g now, since other business has been gone on w1th.

The HoN. P. PERKINS: You did not hear me, Mr. Speaker, or you would have put a different interpretation on my .remarks.

An HoNOURABLE MEMBER: Order !

The HoN. P. PERKINS : Leave off saying "Order!" It is you who are creating disorder. I am in favour of this Bill because it is a corol­lary, or sequel, to the Harbour Boards Bill ; but it does seem strange to me that when a member stands up, and is in order, and speaks intelligently, he should be at once pulled down­I cannot understand it. I know that no such tyranny is in force in any other place that I am acqua.inted with; and I have read about legisla­tive proceedings in other parts of the world. I do not know whether it is in force in Russia--

The SPEAKER : Do I understand the hon. member has complained of my ruling?

The HoN. P. PERKINS : Yes. The SPEAKER: ·wm the hon. member take

his seat ? The hon. member is out of order in complaining of my ruling in connection with the hon. member for Leichhardt. Had the hon. member wished to do that, he should have taken action at the time, and not have allowed it to pass; but he cannot do so now.

The HoN. P. PERKINS : I desire to call the attention of the House to it.

The SPEAKER : The hon. member cannot do so. I rule that the hon.' member is out of order; and having ruled him out of order, he cannot proceed. If the hon. member desires to discuss the Bill, he can, of course, do so.

The HoN. P. PERKINS : I do not desire to test the feeling of the House over the matter, but this has so frequently happened on your part that I desire now to call attention to it.

The SPEAKER : I must once more call the hon. member to order. If the hon. member per­sists in disregarding me when I call him to order, I must ask the House to take action. I ask the hon. member not to persist in a course which will cause me to do what I most desire not to do. I hope the hon. member will not persist in that course.

Mr. LIT'rLE said: Mr. Speaker,-I listened attentively to the remarks of the hon. member for Burrum, and I think they apply particularly to the harbour of Port Douglas. I would like to know whether, if a board is not formed there, the dues collected there may be taken and spent in some other.harbour?

HONOURABLE ME~fBERS : No.

Mr. LITTLE : I did not thoroughly under­stand that, but so long as I know that the funds raised from Port Douglas p,mnot be appropriated for the improvement of any of the other ports of the colony, I am satisfied.

Mr. SMITH said: Mr. Speaker,-Of course the object of this Bill is to enable the Govern­ment to raise money, in order to spend it on the various ports and harbours of the colony.

Mr. L UY A: That is exactly what it is. :tvir. S::YIITH: No doubt the money raised

will be spent upon the particular harbo:ars in which it is raised. I am very glad m deed that a little pressure is being brought to bear to induce the people interested in different parts of the colony to form harbour trusts. It will be admitted that in the past grave blunders have been committed, and now the people will have to pay for those blunders. It will become apparent to everybody, when these harbour dues are enforced, that the natural outlets of the different districts should have been taken ad vantage of by the Governments of the day. The present depression is due in a great measure to the fact that previous Governments did not study the question out before they established ports for the interior districts. Had they done so instead of throwing money into the sea we would have had it spent to some purpose. I hold that a vast amount of the money we have borrowed has been spent in making great national works that have been great national blunders.

Mr. PAUL said: Mr. Speaker,-! rise to a point of order. Has th~ hon. ger:tleman any right to talk about the actwn of previOus Govern­ments in dealing with the Bill now before the House?

The SPEAKER : I was following the hon. member in order to see whether the argument he was using applied to the Bill before the House. The hon. member appeared to me to be wander­ino- from the question, but I was waiting to see whather he was going to adapt his argument ~o the Bill. The hon. member should apply h1s argument to the Bill.

Mr. SMITH: I will point out how the argu­ment applies. I say the legislation we have been engaged in with regard to harbour trusts .has been necessitated from the fact that prevwus Administrations have not made use of the natural outlets for the trade of the interior.

Mr. PAUL: I rise to a point of order. The SPEAKER: Will the hon. member take

his seat? The hon. member must not persist in interrupting me when I wish to check the hon. member for Bowen. I desire to point out that the argument the hon. member for Bowen is using does not apply to the Bill.

Mr. SMITH : I take it that the moneys raised under this Bill will be applied to the improve­ment of the harbours in which they are raised. One good effect that will result from the Bill will be that the people of the interior will become alive to the fact that it would have been much better for them if the Government of the day had availed themselves--

Mr. BLACK : This is Bowen versus Towns­vine.

The SPEAKER : The hon. member's argu­ment does not apply to the Bill. Thi" is a Bill "to make temporary provision for the manage­ment and improvement of harbours," and in discussing the second reading of this Bill the hon. member must discuss that subject.

Mr. SMITH : My remarks, I think, dealt with the principle of the Bill ; but I acmrpt your ruling, Mr. Speaker. I believe the fears enter­tained by the hon. member for Mackay are

1694 Harbour Dues Bill. [.ASSEMBLY.] Harbou1' Dues Bill.

groundless, because the accounts of the different harbours will be kept separately, and the moneys raised in the different harbours will be spent to keep the waterw,ys open. I certainly agree with the Bill, and tn:stit willlpad to the establish­ment of harbour trusts, and that the special Acts which h"'ve been foresh,dowed by the Treasurer will soon come into force. This is, of course, a ten­t,tive me~csure; and I prt'9Ume that as soon as "' h"'rbou~ board i_s established to manage any port th1s Bill Will lapse so far as that port is concerned. I look upon this as simply a comple­ment to the Bill we have <tlready passed and I hope it will raise sufficient revenue to ailow of the plant at present lying idle being worked in the different harbours of the colony.

The HoN. P. PERKINS said : Mr. Speaker--

The SPEAKER : The hon. member has alre,dy spoken.

The HoN. P. PERKINS : As a matter of privilege I rise now. I have had t\vo or three little interviews with you, and I am going now to have my last say--

The SPEAKER : The hon. member has already spoken. Does the hon. member desire to raise a point of order?

The HoN. P. PERKINS : As a matter of privilege--

The SPBAKER: There is no question of privilege now before the House.

The HoN. P. PERKINS: Wel!Iwillmake one. The SPEAKER: Will the hon. member state

what his question is? The HoN. P. PERKINS: Yes; it is what you

said about me. You told me to sit down. I thought you were wrong about the hon. member for Leichhardt, and I still think so, You told him to sit down, and you told me to sit down. You are in the habit of doing this.

The SPEAKER: I must call the hon. mem­ber to order. ·wm the hon. member be good enough to take his seat. I have culled upon the hon. member already not to discuss the question which he now wishes to raise. I do not desire to name the hon. member to the House. I hope he will not compel me to do so.

The HoN. P. PERKINS: You have done that too often.

Mr. L UY A said: Mr. Speaker,-I look upon this Bill as one brought in to fill the Treasury at the expense of the general community, and in unequal proportions. \V e will take Bowen, for example. I feel sure the hon. member for Bowen does not understand the Bill. D::>es he realise that the people who get their goods in Bowen will have to pay 3s. per ton extra on the goods they receive, and the only benefit they receive from that will be a credit in the Treasury books of 1s. per ton? That is exactly the state all our ports along the coast will be in which receive their good@ from the importing centres of Towns­ville, Rockhampton, and Brisbane. All the other ports will be handicapped to the extent of having to pay 3,;. a ton, and will only receive a book credit of lR. a ton. I think when hon. members come to look at it in that light they will alter their opinions on the Bill. How long would it take Bowen, at 1s. a ton, -to accumulate sufficient revenue to run a dredge plant? Not in the life of the present generation. What would become of the money? It would be spent on the other ports. Of course, Bowen has a credit balance of .£10,000 at the present time; but they lose that and gain ls. a ton on the goods imported ; and I do not think the goods imported at Bowen are of such magnitude that they will recover £10,000 in the present genera­tion. I am astonished at hon. members taking

such a cursory view of the Bill, and taking such a view of it as they seem to do. I shall certainly vote against it.

Mr. ALAND said: Mr. Speaker,-As I read this Bill I do not interpret the charge in the same manner as the hon. member for South Brisbane. I take it that if the goods are brought to Brisbane, and then sent to Bowen, the total charges will only be 2s. a ton, because all the goods coming to any port merely pay half dues. A great dercl has been said about the taxation of the general community under this Bill. I am quite sure if the hon. members who made use of that argument were business men they would not think so mnch about it. \Vhy, in two or three months the charges for freight by the different vessels outbalance the charges referred to here. The freight on goods to-day may be 15s. a ton, and in three months it may be £1 5s. a ton. The amount of taxa­tion which has to be paid under this Bill is really a mere nothing, and I believe, instead of it being paid by the general taxpayer, it will be paid by the merchant and storekeeper. I can assure hon. members that taxation, as a rule, falls more heavily on the trading class of the community than on the consuming class. There is a neces­sity for this Bill. There is no money to spend on our rivers. The waterways of the colony mnst be kept open, and I am quite sure the accounts for the different ports will be kept separat<3 and distinct. I reallv rannot see that there can be any objection to the Bill, seeing that the Colonial Treasurer and Parliament have decided that we have no more money to spend in keeping our waterways op9n. Special funds must be pro­vided, and this appears to be as fair a way as possible to raise them.

The COLONIAL TREASURER, in reply, said: Mr. Speaker,-The hon. member for South Brisbane, Mr. Luya, has just made a speech displaying the most gross ignorance on the subject under discussion that I ever heard any member display in this House ; and I make that strong remark, not that I think there is much use in trying to bring the hon. member to his senses, but he had the gross impertinence to lecture the hon. member for Bowen for not understanding the Bill. The hon. member for South Brisbane coolly commenced to explain the provisions of the Bill in the most ridiculous fashion, while the ignorance was on the part of the hon. member himself, and not on the part of the hon. member for Bowen. I think hon. members should have done the Government the courtesy to read the Bill, g,t any rate as far as the preamble. I do not think the hon. member fur .Mackay, 11r. Black, did that, because the greater part of his speoch had reference to one thing-why did the Government not deal with the loan balances to the credit of the harbours of the colony? If he had read the preamble he would have seen that it is a Bill "to make further provision for making and collecting harbour dues, and for the appropriation thereof." \Vhat in the name of common sense has the appropriation of loans to do with ,a subject of that sort? \V e define in the preamble what we are going to deal with, and we have dealt with it. But the hon. member's speech was a tirade against the Government because they had not dealt with a different subject altogether. \Vhen the Harbour Boards Bill was passing through the House, the hon. member dealt with the same sub­ject. He asked what was to become of the .£39,000 to the credit of the loan balances, so far as Mackay was concerned? I explained to him over and over again that the loan balances would be dealt with when the harbour board for the port of Mackay comes to be considered in the special Bill. That is the only place where it could be dealt with.

Federal Council Bill. [1 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1695

The hon. member showed at the time that he was satisfied with the explanation, and I think other hon. members were satisfied also. Hon. members must not run away on the trail that has been drawn by the hon. member for Mackay, that this Bill is to supersede the harbour boards; it is to do nothing of the sort. It is the greatest inducement that I can give for the formation of boards. I have seen from my experience that they required this kind of inducement, or S<JUeeze, befor<', they would act. So long as we keep the dredge and other plant connected with harbours in work, we will never get them to form trusts; but the moment we stop they will at once do so. I do not want to stop ; but the moment we provide money by which they can keep them in work then the different harbours will form boards, and this is a gentle inducement to them to do so. They are ready enough to spend Government money, but we want to provide them with money of their own to spend. One hon. member talked a lot of nonsense about the port of Rockhampton. This does not provide for the whole of the im­provements, but it provide,, for a large amount of them, because there are various other duties which will be collected on shipping property, which the boards are empowered to levy under the principal Act. It is impossible to get at the actual sum to be realised from this source, in spite of the calculations of the hon. member for Mackay.

Mr. BLACK : I took ym)r own figures; they are the only figures we have to go upon.

The COLONIAL TREASURER : As I have said, there is onlv one alternative-either ~o pass thi,s Bill, by· which we can provide Improvements for carrying on the harbours of the colony; or to stop the whole of the improvements at the end of the year. There is no money to go beyond the end of the year. The hon. member for Burrum asked what is to become of the small harbours? The hon. member seems to think that a harbour trust must necessarily be a big trust, with two or three dredges which they mnst keep in operation. Can he not imagine a harbour trust without a dredge at all-a trust which may have the spending of £1,000, or even £300 a year? I do not think that Port Douglas or \:airns will have the same plant as Brisbane, but the money raised from thi~ source will go a long way towards making improvements in those small ports in proportion to their wants. This is the only fair principle on which to act. I hope hon. members will keep out of their minds the idea that this has anything to do with special Acts. It paves the way for special Acts, and keeps improvements going on to a certain extent, until those special Acts are passed.

Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.

The committal of the Bill was made' an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

MESSAGES FROM THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

COMPANIES ('WINDING-UP) BILL-MARSVPIALS DESTRUCTION BILL-JVSTICES AcT AMEND­MENT BILL.

The SPEAKER reported that he had received messages from the Legislative Council, intimat­ing that the Council had agreed to the amend­ments made by the Legislative Assembly in these Bills. FEDERAL COUNCIL REFERRING BILL

(QUEENSLAND), No. 2. COMMITTEE.

On the motion of the CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. Sir S. W. Griffith), the House went into Committee uf the 'Whole to consider this Bill in detail.

The clauses, 1 and 2, and the preamble were passed as printed.

The House resumed ; the CHAIR}!AN reported the Bill without amendment.

The third reading of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

PASTORAL LEASES EXTENSION BILL. On the motion ofthe,CHIEF SECRETARY,

it was resolved in Committee of the Whole that it was desirable to introduce a Bill to authorise the extension of the terms of leases of holdings and runs in certain parts of the colony on con­'dition of improvements being made thereon to prevent the incursion of rabbits.

The House resumed ; and the CHAIRMAN reported that the Committee had come to a resolution.

The resolution was read a first and second time, and agreed to.

FIRST READING. The CHIEF SECRETARY presented the

Bill, and moved that it be read a first time. Question put and passed. On the motion of the CHIEF SECRETARY,

the second reading was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

SUPPLY. RESVJIIPTION 01<' CO}B!ITTEE.

On this Order of the Day being rcrtd, The CHIEF SECRETARY said: :VIr.

Speaker,-! move that you do now leave the chair.

Question put and passed. CoMMITTEE.

SECRETARY l!'OR PlJBLIC LANDS AND AGRICULTURE. The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moverl

that £7,34.5 be granted for salaries. and contin­uencies for the SecretarY for Pubhc Lands and Agriculture. There wer'e only three increases of £10 each to three junior officers.

Question put and passed. LAND BOARD.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £1,145 be granted for the Land B'>ard­salaries and contingencies.

Question put and passed. DIVISION Ol<' RUNS.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £2,730 be granted for the division of runs.

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said that it wus desirable the hon. gentleman should inform the Committee how the dividing commissioners were proceeding with their work, and whether they and the Land Board were as fully occupied as when they were first appointed. They must have pretty well performed the duties for which they had been originally appointed, although the Land Board would always have a certain amount of work devolving upon them.

The SECRETARY JTOR LANDS said that the Land Board had sufficient work to keep them fully employed, a" they had to hold courts all over the colony. They were now up North. There was also plenty work for the dividing commissioners to do. There were now three of them two of them being engaged in dividing runs' whilst the third was occupied in the re­asse;sment of the rents for the second period. A short time previously it had been feared th~t one of them would be unable to carry out hrs work on account of the drought ; but owing to the general rainfall there was now plenty of work for all the commissioners.

1696 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supp~y.

Mr. PL UNKETT asked how it was that two of the commissioners were receiving £700 per annum, while the third was only getting £430? The tra veiling allowance was the same for each.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that the two commissioners were those originally appointed at salaries of £700. The other commis­sioner was Mr. Ward, who had been in the department, but on the abolition of his office he had been appointed a dividing commissioner at a substantial increase on his salary. Mr. Ward was perfectly satisfied with his salary, and made no complaint.

Mr. PLUNKETT said that if he were sure • of any support he would move that the other two salaries should be reduced to £430. If they were all doing the same work they should receive the same remuneration. ·

Question put and passed. SAI.E 0~' LAND.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £7,765 be granted for salaries and contingen­cies for the sale of land. There were a few alter­ations in the vote, which was slightly increased.· The principal increase was for commission on auction sales. There were more sales takino­place now, and proYision must, of course, b% made for them. 'With regard to salaries, there was one increase of £20 to a clerk at Cairns, and there were a few decreases. At Maryborough the sum of £75 was voted last year for three months' salary for the land agent, who had since been dispensed with, and £20 was now asked for a clerk there who was engaged in the Survey Department. At Rockhampton also a clerk of the Survey Department did the ·land agent's work, and for that he received a small increase of £20. There was also an increase-from £95 to £120-in the salary of a clerk and draftsman at Townsville, an officer who performed the duties of both those positions very satisfactorily.

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said he observed that there was an increase of £700 in the item "Commission on sales by auction," and he would like to know whether that increase was made with the view of providing for ordinary sales of town and suburban lands by auction, because he was told that the large areas of land which were sold, were not sold on a principle of commission, but for a specified sum paid to the auctioneer. If that were so it seemed to him that the mere fact of selling large areas of land would not involve a great increase of commission, unless it was anticipated that there would be a very large sale of town and suburban allotments

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said th~ amount put down for commission would cover the commission on all sales, whether of town or country land.

Mr. PLUNKETT asked to whom was the commission paid-to Government auctioneer or to private individuals 1

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the Government auctioneer got a commission on all sales of town and suburban lands at the rate of 1 per cent. up to £1,000, and~ per cent. for any sum beyond that amount. For all sales con­ducted under the Special Sales of Land Act, the !luctione:rreceived a specific sum, and any person mtroducmg a customer to the Government also got a commission of 1 per cent.

Mr. BLACK said he was not aware before that commission was paid to commission agents, and would like to know how the principle had worked, and what payments had been made in that way as well as for sales by auction. It might be worth a person's while to travel to the other colonies to hunt up purchasers under the Special Sales of Land Act.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the principle was that anyone who introduced a customer to the Government, and was the means· of effecting a sale at the upset price when the land was off8red at auction, received a commission; but no cmch commission was allowed to officers of the department.

Mr. A LAND: ·what does the auctioneer get? The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the

auctioneer got so much for each sale; he believed it was £10 10s.

Mr. SMITH : How many auctioneers are there in the colony 1

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said there was only one at present. As a rule country lands were sold by the land agents in the districts where they were situated; but it was thought better to hold sales under the Special Sales of Land Act in Brisbane, and they were con­ducted by the Government auctioneer.

Mr. A LAND asked did the Government auc­tioneer get £10 10s. for every sale placed in his hands, whether the land was disposed of or not ?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS: Yes. Mr. ALAND : Then he will get another £10

10s. when it is put up again? The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said of

course land put up at the request of a commis­sion agent might not be sold; but the depart­ment generally took care to put up at the same time some land which would be sold, so as to pay for the services of the auctioneer.

Mr. FOXTON said the practice of paying commission to commission agents was a dangerous innovation. Everybody knew that so far as auction was concerned the sale of land under the Special Sales of Land Act was simply a farce. Where a man wanted a particular portion of his run he requested that it should be put up for sale, and it was well known that he would get it at the upset price, and it was recognised when the Bill was going through that the submission of the land by auction was a mere form to satisfy a sort of prejudice that everybody should have an opportunity of bidding for the land if they chose. It was a sort of mock auction. If a commission was paid to an agent it should be paid by the purchaser and not by the department, as he could easily write and ask that the land be offered at auction without the intervention of an agent. The land was not placed in the hands of an agent for the purpose of forcing a sale; the transaction really orginated with the pu_rchaser. The Minister merely put up the land m com­pliance with a request made to him by the person who wanted to purchase it, and he did not like the idea of commission being paid under such circumstances. Run-holders always knew the terms upon w£ich they could obtain land. It was a very simple thing for them to write to the Ministel' themselves.

Mr. SALKELD said he understood that persons who introduced customers who guaranteed to pay the upset price for land received a com­mission whether the land was sold or not.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS: No. Mr. SALKELD said he agreed with what

had been said by the hon. member for Carnar­von. When a private person had land to sell people might not know of it, and commission agents were paid to bring purchasers; but every­body knew that the Government had land for sale all over the colony. There was no com­parison between the two cases. He did not think the present system would induce purchasers, but would simply allow those who wished to buy

Supply. [1 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1697

land to put 1 per cent. of its value into the pockets of their friends. It was a very dangerous and undesirable precedent.

Mr. PAUL said he wished to bring under the notice of the Government the necessity of reduc­ing the rents for grazing farms in the Leichhardt district. He thought that the Secretary for Lands would have become aware of that necessity after his trip to the Central districts. That hon. gentleman had only had, previously, experience of land in the coast districts of the North ; and the lands in question were not nearly as valuable as those. He understood that the rentals were decided on the recommendation of the land agents, who were generally clerks of petty se8sions or police magistrates, who could not from their position travel about and gain a knowledge of the country. No member of the Committee ho.d had as varied an experience of the colony as he had, and he considered that those rents were too high. He also wished to bring under the notice of hon. members the desirability of pro­claiming certain suburban and town reserYes along the Central line open for sale with the idea of enabling men working on the line to obtain facilities by which they could make homes for themselves. They all wished to settle people on the land, and in his endeavours to do this he had met with the opposition of the Secretary for Lo,nds, who had asked him why those men should have advantages not enjoyed by other Government employees. On the Darling Downs the other day, he saw men shearing in the sheds at J ondaryan and other stations, and upon inquiry he found--

Mr. CALLAN rose to a point of order. Was the hon. member in order in discusoing shearing on J ondaryan upon the vote for the sale of land?

The CHAIRMAN: The question before the Committee is the vote for the sale of land, and the hon. member must confine himself to the subject.

Mr. PAUL said he understood the general question could be discussed. Up to the time of his tonr in the Central districts the other day the information possessed by the Secretary for Lands on the subject had been confined to the rich lands of the Herbert and Ingham districts ; and it was because the conditiom with reopect to the arid lands of the Central district were so different that he made that final appe£~1 to reduce the rentals npon the grazing and agricul­tural farms in the Leichhardt district.

Mr. PL UNKETT asked how much was paid last year tor commission on sales at auction ?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said he could not give the exact figures; but the amount was between .£1,000 and £1,200.

Mr. PLUNKETT ~aid the vote for last year was .£300, and they heard that .£1,000 or £1,200 had been spent; and though large sales were to come on shortly only .£1,000 was asked for now. That was a very objectionable system, as it

·opened the door to collusion between the agent and purchaser. The system should be done away with, and he would therefore move the omission of the vote of £1,000 for commission on sales at auction.

Question-That the item proposed to be omitted be so omitted-put.

Mr. CALLAN said he quite agreed with the hon. member for Albert. Those commissions on sales were a perfect farce. If a man wanted to buy a certain portion of a run he wrote str~ight to the Secretary for Lands and asked him to put it up to auction, and then arranged with his agent to share the commission. Not a single acre more land would be sold on account of the com­mission. It was simply giving away the money for a very bad purpose.

1892-5 M

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said he did not sympathise with the ide<t of paying commission to private agents, because the system. was open to grave abuse. In fact, it was like making a pre­sent of 1 per cent. to the friend of some person who intended to buy. If the private commission were abolished the land would be purchased quite as readily. He observed that the commis­sion on special sales of land appeared to have came into opemtion last year, because the Auditor-General in his report said that .£699 19s. 2d. w<ts unforeseen expenditure for that pur­pose, and had to be voted. He did not think the vote should be abolished in toto, because there was commission on sales by auction that had to be paid. The:v were committed to a great deal of the vote already, and the better plan would be to reduce the amount by a reasonable snm, say, .£300 or £400, so that the commission on ordinary sales might be paid. That reduction would mark the sense of the Committee that the system of private com­mission should be abolished.

The SEORETARY FOR LANDS said he trusted the amendn,ent would n~t be ca•ried, be­cause the commission agents had to work very hard for their money. Not only had they gone to the other colonies, but had also sent to their agents in Great Britain, and were doing their utmost to assist the Government to push sales of land and help the Treasury in the difficulty it was in. If they wanted to sell land they must pay for it; he was convinced if there was no com­mission allowed the sales would fall off to a great extent. The commission agents had communi­cated with stockowners and capitalists in all parts of the colonies, and brought them to the Government to ask that certain areas should be put up for sale. The department sent its local officers, and at times special officers, to examine the land thoroughly and report on its fair value. If the officer was of opinion that the land was not worth more than 10s. rtn acre, and if the public interests would not be jeopardised by the sale, or if any reservations for water were to be made or boundaries altered, the repOl't said so, and the department had then proposed certain modi­fications to the intending purchaser. Unless those were accepted, no sales were effected. In several ca>es they had flatly refused to acce12t offers because their officers had told them rt would be injurious to the general interests to do so. The commission agents had been put to a great deal of expense, n,nd the small amount of 1 percent. which they were paid was not more than would pay them for their trouble, At the present time it was very desirable to sell land, provided it was not sold where it was wanted for immediate settlement ; but if they wanted to sell land they must deal in a fair manner with the people who did the work. He did not think the hon. member for Carnarvon understood the position. He said those were mock auctions; but they were no snch thing. The department were in this position: They saved the expense of survey. 'l'hey would not go to the expense of surveying unless they had a guarantee that certain land would be bought, and the people who made the offers gave a guarantee; but anyone else could bid over them.

Mr. FOXTON : Do they? The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said he

thought only in one instance it had ~een done, but the land was well advertised. Drrectly the sale was arranged they sent not only to the Pom­mission agents who had brought the matter under their notice, but they sent slips to other comrni~sion agente, and advertised in all the prin­cipal papers in the southern colonieH. They gave every publicity in order to try and get competition, but it was impossible to compel competition. They did their utmost to induce

1698 Suppl1J. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl1J.

it, and the fact of getting a guarantee saved a great loss which would otherwise take place in surveying. In scarcely a single instance where they had put up land for which there had been no inquiry had the sale been a success. Only one or two small areas had been sold, so that showed the necessity for the assistance they derived from thecommi,sion agents. Supposing a blouk was run and the original applicant was not the purchaser, the commi;sion agent got no commission whatever.

Mr. PLUNKETT said that when he moved the amendment he was not aware that a con­siderable portion of the sum had already been expended. With the permission of the Com­mittee he would withdraw the amendment, in order to submit it in a modified form.

Amendment withdrawn. Mr. PL UNKJ<JTT moved, as an amendment,

that the item "Commission on sales at auction, £1,000," be reduced by £500.

Mr. BLACK said he did not know whether hon. members had taken into consideration wha the amendment really meant. Undar the Speeial Sales of Land Act, which was passed to provide for the redemption of something like £1,500,000 of Treasury Bills, the Government had power, during the current year and the next, to set apart certain proceeds from sales of land to meet the deficiency in the revenue. Although last year 574,000 acres of land were sold, realising £287,000, the amount actually paid in cash was only £126,000, out of which £125,000 was taken to provide for the defi­ciency in last year's revenue. Practically, therefore, the liability for the Treasury bills remained as before, and unless the Committee contemplated very considerable additional taxa­tion every means must be resorted to to pro­vide for those Treasury bills by sales of land. To do that it would certainly be necessary to pay commission' to somebody for finding pur­chasers for the land. If the Government floated a loan they had to pay a commission. In his opinion £1,000 would be altogether insufficient for the purpose. Last year £300 was voted, and, as they were aware, the actual expenditure was £700. They could not get commission agents to do business for nothing, and he would prefer to pay a liberal commission, and relieve the future Government from the necessity of imposing additional taxation, as they would need to do if they did not dispose of large areas of land. While advocating the strictest economy in the Government departments, his experience was that it would be bad policy to curtail the vote, as the amJunt was ridiculously small. On the sale of those 574,000 acres of land, realising over £250,000, the commision paid had amounted to something like £10 10s. on each sale, which was altogether out of proportion to the amount of the transactions. If purchasers were to be found, commission would have to be paid; and if the money was not voted now, it would have to be voted on the Supplementary Estimates next year.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that he did not think the amount asked for would be sufficient, but they intended to try if they could not sell land without paying commission. Out of the 300,000 or 400,000 acres put up on spec, there had been no sales effected without commission having to be paid ; but other areas were to be offered on spec, and he hoped some would be sold. The commission had only been ls. on ten acres, or a little over 1d. an acre, so that there was really no reason to complain.

Mr. PLUNKETT said that he was quite aware of the necessity for selling land, but the previous speech of the Secretary for Lands was the strongest evidence that could be given

of the necessity for reducing the vote. When a man wanted to buy a large block of land it was an insult for any agent to endeavour to induce him to purchase, and he did not believe that one acre of land had been sold through the agency of private individuals. If a pa~toralist considered it advantageous to buy a certam block of land he wrote to the Secretary of Lands and had it put up to auction, and the sales were mock auctions, as the land was really sold before put up. The system was open to abuse, and it would be wiser for the department to do away with the payment of commission. He intended to press his amendment.

Mr. LITTLE said that he was surprised at the amendment, seeing the Treasurer had been authorised to issue £500,000 worth of Treasury bills, and the Special Sales of Land Act had been passed to provide for the redemption of the Treasury bills by the sale of waste lands. The Secretary for Lands had looked round for the best terms, and had secured the services of agents who had saved a great deal of expense in survey­ing and in other respects, and had found pur­chasers. They would be ignoring the previous action of Parliament if they ag-reed to the amend­ment, and he hoped the hon. gentleman would withdraw it.

Mr. GANNON said it was rather a strange remark for the Secretary for Lands to make, that no land had been sold except where a com­miosion was paid to buyers, becaU8e it was well known that those large areas of land were sold almost before they were put up to auction. The lessee of a run wrote down to an ao-ent asking him to get certain land put up for s~le, and the land was offered at auction, the auctioneer getting his £10 lOs. and the agent of the purchaser getting 1 per cent. o~ th~ transac­tion. He (Mr. Gannon) had no ob]ectwn to an agent being paid a percentage as long as he influenced a sale; but they all knew that sales by auction under the Special Sales of Land Act were a perfect farce. If it could be shown that agents influenced the sales of large areas of land, by all means let them have a commission; but he thought the procedure now adopted was a wrong one.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the hon. member who had just spoken was not present ear Her in the evening, and had not heard h_is ~x­planation, when he state~ t.hat no c~mmisswn was paid unless the commissiOn agent mfluenced the sale. If land was put up to auction, and a commission agent bought it, not having previously induced the Government to offer the land, he got no commission ; he only got commission on land sold absolutely through his intervention. A areat deal of land had been put up and sold ~here the department dealt directly with the purchaser, and no commission was. paid i!' those instances ; but there were cases m whiCh be knew for a positive fact that agents had actually induced the purchasers to buy the land, and then they were paid commission.

Mr. AGNEW sa,id, as he understood the mfttter if an agent arranged for the sale of certain' land, and it was sold to a second or third agent at a higher rate. than the ups.et price, the first mentioned received the commis­sion, and the others, who had really been the means of benefiting the country, derived no benefit from it. To his mind the first agent should not receive the commission, as he had misled the Government.

Mr. BARLOW said it appeared to him that a person might say he would spend £30,000 in buy­ing land on his run, and ask an agent to get the land put up by auction, by which means a man who had not influenced the sale in any way would get £300 cash. If, however, the money

Supply. [1 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1699

asked for could be shown to be absolutely neces· sary to promote bona fide sales he should be glad to vote for the item as it stood.

Mr. CASEY said all the arguments against the vote presupposed that the vendor and vendee were fools, and that commission was paid which had not been earned. It was very curious to hear hon. members who had interested them­se! ves in the sales of land say that an auctioneer or agent could not influence a sale. He wondered why private individuals paid commission for sales of land if it was not because the auctioneer worked up the sale and got purchasers to attend. He be~ieyed that if. the Government paid a higher comrrusswn, and mduced men to use their in· fluence for the sake of earning that commiss!on, they would sell a great deal more land.

Mr. CALLAN said the hon. member who had just spoken knew perfectly well that before any land w,o-s put up by auction an arrangement was made that it should be bought at a certain price, and it was known who would be the pur· chaser. As to an auctioneer in Queen street influe;10ing a squatter to buy 30,000 acres of land on Ius own run, as had been suggested, he had been a commission agent and he could s:ty that there was no ground for such an argument. He would support the reduction of the item by £500.

Mr. GANNON said it was quite true that auctioneers and commission agents influenced some sales of land, but not the sales of blocks of from 10,000, 20,000, to 30,000 acres. If an agent went to the department and said, "Look here, you put up 150,000 acres of land, and I will inn nee buyers to come and purchase it," by all means give him a commission; but let them not pay a commission to an agent to whom a lessee had written asking him to call at the department and get certain land offered for sale by auction. In all private sales the agent had to find the buyers, but in that c11se the depart­ment knew perfectly well before the land was put up who was going to buy it. However, if it was considered that £1,000 would be required for commission, he would rather see it pass than do anything that would prevent the sale of land at the present time when monev was so much needed in the Treasury. •

Mr. CROMBIE said there were agents and agents. Some worked for their commissions and some did not, otnd he rather suspected that the agents who had been referred to din nothing for their commissions.

Question-That the item proposed to be re· duced be so reduced-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYES, 8. :Messrs. Dickson, Smith, OaUan, Aland, Jfacfarlane,

Plunkett, Drake, and Grimes. NoEs, 22.

T Sir S. W. Griffith, M~ssrs. Cowley, Casey, Unmack, Nelson, Black, Hyne, Smyth, Bm·low, Phi.lp, 1Ic::\1aster, Gannon, Luya, O'Connell, Agnew, Tozer, Dunsmure Watson, Little, Crombie, t5tephens, and Itutledge. '

PAIR.

Aye-~rr. Sayers. No-::\Ir. Hodgkinson. Qu~stion resolved in the negative, and original

questiOn put and passed. BAILIFFS AND RANGERS.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that the sum of £4,760 be granted for bailiffs and rangers of Crown lands-salaries.

Question put and pas;,ed.

OPENING OF ROADS.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £3,720 be granted for opening of roads­salaries and contingencies. Hon. members would notice an increase in the amount for

opening roads to facilitate the selection of land. The increased amount had been put down with a desire to facilitate the selection of land in many parts of the country by giving access before selec· tion, so that people could go and see the character of the land. The sum of £3,000 had been put down for the purpose.

Mr. BLACK said that last year the sum of £2,000 was voted for opening a road from Geraldton to He.rberton. He wished to know how that money had been expended, and what was the result.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the work was not vet completed. The whole of tbe contract had been let, and a road 16 feet 6 inches wide was being cleared from the Geraldton end to Herberton. A portion of the work had been carried out under the supervision of the John­stone Divisional Board, and a portion under the supervision of the Tinnaroo Divisional Board. '1'he land through which the road passed was all scrub, and was mostly of first-class quality. At present land was being surveyed for selection along the road at the Geraldton end ; and it was intended when the road was open at the Herberton end to survey land for selection there also. The amount of the contract let at pre,;ent did not quite absorb the whole of the vote; but there were a few difficult places to cross, and it was proposed to extend the balance of the vote to a small extent in order to bridge thoFe difficult plac,,s,

Mr. BARLOW said there were many places the \Vest Moreton and other parts of the colony where selection was thick, and where the farmers had the greatest difficulty in getting their produce to market. Any vote for roads in places like those would have his cheerful support.

Mr. BLACK said he was glad to hear that the work of opening the road from Geraldton to Herberton was proceeding ; but he desired to elicit some information as to the nature of the route-whether the road crossed any big range such as that crossed by the railway from Cairns to Herberton. It had been said that a railway might have been made to Herberton by a more e<>Jnomic:t! route; and he assumed that the Lands Department han some reports as to the nature of the route from Geraldton to Herberton­the gradients cmd general difficulties.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said there was practically no range between Herberton and Geraldton. He rode over the whole distance before he spent anv money at all to see the nature of the country, an'd whether the money would be profitably expended or thrown away. He came to the conclusion tl1at there was nothing to prevent a man driving along that road from Herberton to Gera!dton in a day. There were a few croAsings, but no boggy cree~s. Ther~ were a few sharp jJinches at the crossm!'s, and Ill one instance a long descent into and ascent out of the Batavia. There was one part of the road near Herberton as originally surveyed that he "as not s::ttisfied with; and Mr. ::\lazlin, a first-class bubhman and explorer living there, volunteered to find a better road ; he sanctioned this, and 1\Ir. Mazlin mar keel out a road through the scrub, which the surveyor admitted was better, as it a voided most of the hills he had ridden over. The report now was that the road was better than the orie he had passed over, and there wa; nothing to prevent a man driving from Herberton to Geraldton in a rlay.

Mr. LITTLE said the road in question passed through some of the best agricultural laud in the colony and £2,000 could not have been better spent than in opening it up. Beyond twelve or fourteen miles from Geraldton all the land belonged to the Crown, and he believed every

1700 Suppl:;. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl:;.

acre of it would soon be applied for, because there would be markets for produce both at Herberton and Geraldton.

Mr. BLACK said no objection could be raised to the vote, and he was very glad to have received the information that he had. If that road had been opened before, the terrible blunder of the O,tirns-Herberton Railway would have been avoided. The £1,250,000 that had been spent on the line from Cairns to Granite Creek would have been saved, and a railway built along the road in question for, possibly, 25 per cent. of that amount. The cost of the present arbitration case would come to more than the cost of the road. He was pleased to say that he had initiated the opening of this road, and was glad that the result had justified the first vote placed on the Estimates on that account.

Mr. AGNEW snid he had much pleasure in supporting the vote. He wished to draw atten­tion to a case where there were fourteen settlers in a district, and thirteen of them wanted a certain road made; but it was not possible with­out the acquiescence of the other, and no argu­ment or monetary consideration would induce him to agree to it. It was necessary to place a sum of money in the hands of the Secretary for Lands in order that he might have some control over the interests of the different settlers in a district.

Question put and passed.

PASTORAL OCCUPATION.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £1,460 be granted for pastoral occupation­salaries and contingencies.

Question put and passed.

I:!URVEY OF LAND.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £50,751 be granted for the survey of land­salaries and contingencies. He said the vote was some £2,000 less than that of last year, although there were some slight increases to junior officers.

Mr. MACFARLANE said in the third item. there were two draftsmen at £150, one at £104, and one at £100 ; but the total was set down at £404. That appeared to be a mistake.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the item at £100 ought to have been omitted. The draftsman at £104 had been a cadet, and the increase was in consequence of an arrang€ment made when he came in as a cadet.

Mr. PLUNKETT said that when the last Land Act was going through he introduced an amendment to allow selectors who took np land as conditional ReJections to come in under the unconditional clauses of that Act. The Secre· tary for Lands objected to that; but judging from a report of the hon. gentleman's remarks at Longreach, in the Courier of 21st October, a change had come over the spirit of his dream. In answer to a deputation that waited upon him, the hoc. gentleman was reported to have agreed to allow those who took up conditional selections to change to unconditional selections, and the money already paid to be counted as paid for unconditional selection. He would like to know if the hon. gentleman had been correctly reported and if the same privilege was to be allowed t~ selectors in the Southern part of the colony ?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said his speech had not been correctly reported, and the hon. member might have known that he could not possibly act contrary to the law. He told the deputation that the selectors could not come under the unconditional clauses, but what they could do would be to surrender their selections, and they would be put up again as pen to unconditional selection. He agreed that

if that were done, and they were fortunate enough to secure the selections again, he would allow the money they bad spent on them to be counted as rent for the unconditional selections. He could understand the mistake occurring, as the telegram passed through so many hands; but one of the Rockhampton papers had reported him correctly on the point.

Mr. iBLACK asked whether there was any necessity for a district surveyor at Rockhampton; how the dutie3 of the office were being performed, and whether the officer in charge there did any work? His experience had been that the draftsman there really did the work. Hon. members would see that there was the large sum· of £7,450 down for district and staff surveyors, or £350 more than last year. Then there was a vote of £2,800 for chainmen and labourers. He found that the district surveyor at ~o?k· hampton had a salary of £500, and also £200 m heu of horses, forage, equipment, instruments, etc. There was a vote of £1,400 on the Estimates for allowance in lieu of instruments, and he did not know whether the £200 came out of that; but he thought economy could be effected by re­ducing the vote for the district surveyor at Rockhampton to that extent, as he thought that · £200 was absolutely unnecessary.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said there was great necessity for a staff snrveyor for the Rockhampton district. There was no. doubt that a good deal of settlement was gomg on there, and, as a surveyor, the officer in charge there was a very competent man. He did not think that officer had given as much attention to his public duties in the past as he should have done ; hut that matter had been settled, and anyone who knew the Surveyor-General would know that anyone under him would have to do his duty. With regard to the £200, that had a] ways been granted; it was a! ways expended, and it was necessary that a staff surveyor should have such an allowance. The extra allowance for chain­men imd surveyors' labourers was due to the fact that a better class of men were employed, and better work was done. A great many young surveyors were at present out of employ­ment, and he was informed that all their surveyors' assistants at present were licensed surveyors who were willing to act for the staff surveyors in that way. On that ground, and at the request of the Surveyor-General, he had added the amount shown in the vote, and the men honestly earned the higher remuneration.

Mr. BLACK asked what the district surveyor at Rockhampton had done during the last twelve months?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that in addition to his ordinary duties of checking surveys he had done a grea,t deal of work in con­nection with the special sales of land. He had visited and reported upon most of the lands sold under the Act in the Central district, and had come to Brisbane to give special information on the subject.

Mr. BLACK asked whether any complaints had been received as to the way in which that officer had lately performed his duties 7

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said there had been a slight complaint from the Surveyor­General; but the matter had been settled, and there had been no complaints by the public.

Mr. BLACK said he was glad to hear that; but in expressing his gratification he must also express his astonishment at the way in which the officers of the department stuck to one another.

Mr. PLUNKETT said he understood there was not the same amount of survey work to be done this year as last year ; so far as the survey of grazing and agricultural farms were

Supp~y. [1 NoVEM:BER.J Supp~y. 1701

concerned, they were led to believe that suffi­cient work had been done to last for a couple of years. However, the same vote as last year was down for fees to licensed surveyors-£25, 000. He thought that was too much in the pre,ent state of the colony. Was the amount voted last year spent?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said nearly the whole of it. There was very little left. In addition to the ordinary work, the department had surveyed over 1,000,000 acres of land under the Special Sales of Land Act. Hon. members must remember that the bulk of the money cotme back in the form of fees. In former years £15,000 was generally asked for, and £25,000 spent ; but last year he had asked for what he thought would be required, and the vote was not exceeded.

Question put and passed.

TRIGONOi\!ETRICAL SURVEY.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that a sum not exceeding £1,500 be granted for the trigonometrical survey.

Mr. BLACK said it was usual to have some information as to how that vote was expended. It was one of those votes put down year after year, and of which the good resu1ts were not visible. Whether it was on or off the Estimates it would make no difference to the colony.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the work was being steadily carried on with the amount placed at the disposal of the Govern­ment. Last year £1,450 was spent. The Sur­veyor-General in his report said that last year an officer was sent to fix the direct longitude of the Northern and many of the Western towns, and the work was accomplished in a most satis­factory manner.

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said that was what might be termed a scientific vote. The results might not be very apparent; but if hon. members would look at the Surveyor-General's report they would see that the trigonometrical survey had been proceeded with to a more satis­factory extent than in previous years. In addi­tion to fixing the latitude and longitude of several of the towns, the inf,>rmation derived was made use of by the Admiralty in connection with the coast line. The survey ought to be proceeded with until satisfactorily concluded.

Mr. BLACK said was it not the custom to employ officers on the survey whose salaries were voted for other purposes, and who used the tri­gonometrical survey vote as a kind of contingency vote ? How was the work being carried out now? Was there a special staff, whose salaries were paid out of the £1,500?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the money was expended on a special staff who did no other work. The only exception was that £50 was allowed to one officer in the department who did the trigonometrical compnting.

Mr. MACF ARLANE said when he came into the House fifteen years ago that vote gave him some little trouble; and he remembered a discus­sion that took place on it then. He should like to know what progress had been made with the work, and how long it was likely to last?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said it was impossible to say when the work would terminate -possibly not for many years. He was sorry there was not money enough to proce@d with the work more expeditiously, because very good work was being done. If the hon. member would read the report of the Surveyor-General he would get all the information as to what had been spent up to the present time. It was generally acknow-

!edged that the work being done was of a first­class character, and was being carried out on a sonnd practical basis.

Question put and passed. MISCELLANEOUS.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £31,580 be granted for miscellaneons ser­vices. The great increase on the item was on account of the rabbit vote. Last session an Act was passed for the formation of rabbit boards, by which the Government had to supply rabbit­proof netting under certain conditions. The amonnt as ken for, under the terms of that Act, was £30,000, and there was every reason to believe that the whole of it would be reCJ.uired. The districts where the rabbit boards had been formed had already subscribed £30,000. The Go­vernment had to provide wire-netting eCJ.ual to the amount of the assessment made by those boards. · There was also an item of £1,000 for inspectors, whose main dnty was to see that the Government money was properly spent. Those inspectors were also members of each rabbit board. They were in constant communication with the depart­ment, and kept them exactly informed as to what was going on in each district. From their reports he was led to believe that the rabbit boards were doing excellent work, and were doing their utmost to prevent the spread of rabbits in the colony.

Question put and passed.

AGRICULTURE.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £19,288 be granted for the Agricultural Depart­ment-salaries and contingencies. Hon. member& would observe that there was a decrease in the amount for the travelling dairies. When the estimate was framed there were very few appli­cations in for the travelling dairy, and it was decided to lay one of them np for a time ; bnt immediately more applications came in than one dairy could supply, the other could be started again. The Government, taking into considera­tion the very large number of stock in the colony, deemed it their duty to obtain the services of the best man obtainable in America as an instructor in meat preserving and packing. Professor Shel­ton entered into negotiations with a very old friend of his, who was in a position to select a good man, and the result was that a first-class man had been appointed, who was expected to arrive at Sydney about the 8th of the month. When he arrived in the colony his services would be available for any centres of pop1,1lation desirous of instruc­tion in the very latest methods of meat preserv­ing and packing. With regard to the vote for an agricultural college, nothing was done dnring the past year on account of the state of the Treasury ; but this year there was every hope that the college would be started. Several sites had been selected bv Professor Shelton and sub­mitted to him ; al:Jd "immediately he had the time available, he intended, with Professor Shelton and the Surveyor-General, to examine each eite personally, and select the one which they col­lectively considered would be the most advan­tageous of the colony.

Mr. BLACK asked what were the conditions under which the instructor in meat preserving and packing had been engaged ?

The .SECRETARY FOR LANDS replied that the agreement was for three years, at a salary of £1,000 per annum.

Mr. BLACK said he did not object to the vote for that branch of technical education, but he hoped the Minister would see that the three experts did not always travel together. It had been a matter of remark by some people that whenever the Under Secretary for

1702 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Agriculture found it necessary to go anywhere, the Professor of Agriculture went with him ; even to the most insignificant shows they always travelled together. If it was necessary for them both to travel, the Under Secretary should take one district and the professor another. ·with regard to the reduction in the vote for travelling dairies, he considered it false LConomy. They had been of immense service to the colony, as could be seen by anyone who compared the dairy produce now turned out with that which used to be turned out a few years ago. He hoped the hon. gentleman would soon see his way to set the travelling dairy going again. It was to be regretted that the expert in ham and bacon curing and the instructor in tobacco curing had been dispensed with. He regretted the tendency to do away with technical educa­tion for the farmers, which had been initiated by the previous Government, and which had done a great deal of good. He entirely approved of the introduction of the expert to teach the people to use their meat to the best advan­tage. He hoped he would not confine his atten­tion to the large factories, but that he would travel about the country and teach the people on the stations and the people in general to turn the raw material to the best possible advan­tage. He was certain that the Committee would always be willing to grant a liberal vote for that species of technical education.

Mr. GANNON said that ha was afraid that the instructor in meat preserving would be corn· pelled to confine his attentions to the large meat factories, as instruction could hardly be given on stations or farms where they had no machinery.

Mr. BLACK : He can teach the people how to salt the meat and pack it in casks.

Mr. GANNON said that he did not think that was intended.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that the instructor would do that work, as he was thoroughly competent to do it. He had been engaged in the Chicago beef trade, salting beef and packing it in casks and tierces, and that meat was used on hoard ships in the Queensland coast, as well as all OYer the world. It was the intention of the department to send the expert to the different centres of population, and not merely to where there were factories. In the Central and Northern districts there were several boiling-down establishments, where cattle and sheep were boiled down for the sake of the tallow and skins, and the expert would be able to show those people the bJ)st methods of salting their beef for export. He would lecture in all parts of the country.

Mr. GRIMES said that he was pleased to learn that the expert in meat preserving would not confine his instruction to the large factories. It was right to get instructors from other places where the industries had been long established. A mistake, if not a great wrong, had been com­mitteci in dispensing with the tobacco expert, as farmers had been induced to cultivate tobacco, and Mr. Lamb had been paid off just when his services would have been of the greatest value. He should have been retained as a sorter and curer of tobacco, so that he might have fully instructed the farmers. As it was, the tobacco was either lying in the sheds or had been thrown out. It would have been far better never to have induced the farmers to go in for the culti cation of tobacco. The hon. member for Mackay had re­ferred to the Under Secretary and Professor ~helton travelling together, but" that was due to their efforts to establish farmers' cmlferences at the different agricultural shows. The farmers were then assembled together, and valuable papers on agricultural subjects were read and dis­cussed. The papers were afterwards published

by the department and disseminated through Queensland and the southern colonies, and had proved of great value. He had not long before interviewed a man who had been induced to come from another colony to obtain information about articles grown in Queensland through the publi­cation of some papers for the people, which had been initiated by the late Mr. Jordan. The Under Secretary and the professor had done good work in travelling together and getting up those conferences. He would ask the Secretary for Lands if the £ii,OOO for the agricultural college was now available? It would please him more to learn that the money was available and the buildings put up than to hear that a site had been selected. The college had been promised for some years, but nothing had been done. He was sure the money would be cheerfully voted by the Committee if it would be immediately available. It was the opinion of the public that it was high time they had an agricultural college, in which some of their young people could be trained in the science of agriculture.

Mr. SMITH said he fully agreed that the experts who had been previously employed had been of great service to the colony, and believed that the expert in meat preserving would educate the people in a very profitable employment, as his predecessors had done in other directions. Last year the Minister promised that an expert in fruit preserving would be obtained, and he (Mr. Smith) would like to know if any steps had been taken towards getting such an expert. The services of an expert in that industry would be of great value to the colony. At the present time a great deal of fruit was lost or wasted simply for want of the necessary knowledge of preserving it. He was rather surprised to hear that the services of the manager of travellin!l" dairy No. 1 were dispensed with, because there was still plenty of work to be done in perfecting that which had already been commenced. If ever money had been well spent it was that spent on the travelling dairy, and he hoped that even yet the Minister would see his way to retain the services of the manager.

The SECRETARY FOR LAND'l said he had already explained that when the Estimates were under consideration there were not sufficient applications to justify the Government in keep­ing on the two dairies. The system initiated by his predece"sor in office, which had proved so successful, was that the travelling dairy was not sent to any centre unless application were made for it and some local body, either an agricultural society or a divisional board, undertook to receive it at the nearest railway station, to convey it to the site of operations, and to arrange for a shed for it to be worked in and for a certain number of pupils. There were only three or four appli· cations in at the time, and it was therefore thought better to allow one of the travelling dairies to lay up until such time as there were sufficient applications in to keep both fully occupied. He believed that in two or three months it might be necessary to start the second dairy again, and if so it would be started at once. ·with regard to a fruit expert, he had tried to get one and failed. A fortnight ago he asked Pro­fessor Shelton to write to some of his friends in America for the latest information on fruit preserving, and to ascertain upon what terms the services of an expert could be obtained. With respect to the agricultural college, it was the intention of the Government to make a start with it as soon as the site was selected.

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said he hoped that the Government would be able to give practic~tl effect to their intentions with regard to the agricultural college, as it was very desirable that something should be done in that direction.

Supply. [1 N OVEMBEll..] Supply. 1703

But he rose principally to ask where the museum of economic botany and botanical library were situated, and whether they were open to the public; also what the small vote of £65 for forestry was for? He did not think much could be done for that sum.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the botanical library and the museum of economic botany were in the Agricultural Department. The books were primarily for the use oft he Under Secretary, the Professor of Agriculture, and other officers, but anyone wishing to read them could do so in the· office. Of course they were not lent out. The museum of economic botany attracted a good many people, and had been the means of doing a considerable amount of good. He knew that in one case a man who had seen some of the timbers there selected some and sent home a sbipment, which turned out very satisfactorily, after which he went to look at other timbers in the collection. Any hon. member who would pay a visit to the department would be satisfied with the work th%t was being done, and would see that it was really appreciated by the public. With regard to the vote for forestry, it was the same old vote for the man in charge at Fraser Island. He had charge of the small nursery there, and planted out trees occasionally; but his principal work was the thinning out the young plants, so as to allow them to grow without being choked.

Mr. L UY A said it was a great mistake to dispense with one of the tmvelling dairies, because when applications came in they had now no expert to work at the travelling dairy.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS: Yes, we have.

Mr. L UY A said the other colonies had been reaping the benefit of their expenditure, and he thought it was a great mistake, for the sake of two or three months' salary for the hands employed, that they should have stopped the working of the dairy. A great blunder had also been made in allowing the tobacco expert to go. As the hon. member for Oxley had ~aid, they kept that expert long enough to mduce farmers to grow tobacco, and now when they were coming to the manufactur~ of the article, and really scientific hand!ina was required, they were without an expert~ He hoped the interests of the Agricultural Department were not being sacrificed for the sake of getting a meat-curing expert ; he felt certain that the Committee would be willing to vote salaries for both rather than let the interests of the agriculturists suffer. There was no product grown in Queensland that wanted more scientific handling than tobacco, and he trusted that it was not too late for the Minister to retrace his steps in the matter. With regard to the item of £65 for forestry, he might remind the Committee that every year the promise was made that steps would be taken to establish a proper department for the con­serv"'tion of their timbers. That assurance had been given by nearly every Minister; but year after year the miserable pittance of £65 appeared on the Estimates for the purpose of weeding out among the fine trees on Fraser Ishmd. Why did not the Government look at the other colonies and see that for the hundreds they had spent in connection with the conservation of forests they had reaped thousands. There was nothing that would return the Government so much for their expenditure in a country like Queensland. Millions of young trees were coming up now in the scrubs, and it only required a reasonable amount to make a start in the coastal scrubs, where the land was practically in the hands of the Government. He had spoken of the matter every oession; but it seemed useless to draw the

attention of Ministers to the question. They admitted that it was a matter of national import­ance, but they would not do anything. He really thought the Committee were entitled to some definite statement from the Minister as to the intentions of the Government with regard to the conservation of forests.

Mr. PL UNKETT said that the item of £300 for the destruction of noxious weeds should either be done away with altogether or else very much increased. He did not know how the money was expended, but he knew a good many divisional boards that never got any of it, though the noxious weeds were very bad ill. their divisions. The land at the heads of the ranges in the electorate he represented was all Crown land, and wasonemassoflantana, Bathurst burr, Scotch thistle, and N oogoora burr. In the wet season the seeds were washed down to the farms, and it was a great trouble to eradicate those pests. Many divisional boards had passed by-laws compelling people to clear their land of those noxious weeds ; and if they did not, then the boards cleared off the weeds at the expense of the owners. He thought it would be money well spent if £3,000 were voted for the destruction of noxious weeds.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that the vote was only for clearing reserves over which the Crown had control, not those over which the local authorities had control. The work was generally done by the local authorities, and the Government paid them for it. There was no necessity for increasing the vote, because it had never been exceeded. Last year the amount spent was £269 17s. ·

Mr. AGNEW said that the remarks made by the hon. member for South Brisbane, Mr. Luya, were entitled to a little notice, and the Minister was not doing justice to the Committee or to himself by ignoring those remarks. The agri­cultural industry-including the forest industry­was being sunk for the meat industry. The Committee did not begrudge the appointment of a meat expert, but they deprecated the appoint­ment at the expense of other industries. They had been educated up to the opinion that the travelling dairy was one of the finest things in the colony ; but now they were told by the Minister that it was played out, and was not worth maintain­ing. A travelling dairy without a man who under­stood it was useless ; but when they had a com­petent officer they would make a serious mistake if they dispensed with his services for the pur­pose of making a small saving. They had been told the amount had been taken off because there were not sufficient applications ma:le ; but several applications were made from his own district, and in one case no reply was made. That officer had given very great satisfac­tion in all the districts he had visited, and his services should have been retained as long as there was any need for him. In regard to forestry, Queensland was the only colony that was not moving in that direction. South Australia had set a very good example, and the Government there were actually making a profit ant of it. To spend only £65 was ridi­culous, and it was a waste of time to keep on mak­ing promises but doing nothing. He supposed that £65 was received by some officer who drew a salary from other sources as well. Every hon. member was thoroughly convinced that some­thing ought to be done, and the Secretary for Lands should not ignore the remarks of the hon. member for South Brisbane.

Mr. BARLOW said he must express his regret at the action the Government had taken, because a dairy without an instructor was not much good. The instructor was now in Tasmania, probably making the usual declara­tion that the specific purity of milk there was

1704 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

greater than in any other part of the world. In regard to the agncultural college they all had confidence ir: the judg:ment of the' Secretary for Lands ; but It was said of one Lord Chancellor that when he gave away a church living he uRed to say he had made one ingrate and a dozen enemies. In the prEo,ent case it would bP- better to appoint a committee to say where the college should be, because if the Secretarv for Lands made a selection; he would find he Ii'ad made one constituency ungrateful and the rest enemies.

Mr. ALLAN said he was glad to hear that if the vote for the agricultural college were passed thel'e was a chance of work being gone on with at once. It was certain that agriculture had received an impetus, and the sooner they had scientific. lecturers to work under the better it would be for t~e country. He hoped the college would be situated where it was most needed. In regard to the tra veiling dairy he echoed what had been said by other hon. mem­bers, and regretted that the second dairy had been knocked off. He had looked into the matter and found that two or three weeks ago there were seven or eight applications for a travelling dairy. They knew that when the dairy went to one town, four or five other places around would apply for it. If it were only necessary to ha ye apRlications coming in to keep the sec.or;d dairy gomg, he would promise that the Mimster would receive sufficient to justify him starting it at once.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said he thought there must be some mistake on the part of the hon. member for Nundah as there was no appli?ation for the travelling d~iry from him on the list. If the hon. member had sent in any it must have miscarried, and the department should not be blamed for that. If the hon. m~mber's constituents made an application the darry would be sent to that district the same as to any other. As to what had been said about the experts in connection with the travel­ing dairies, lVIcCormick, Spence, and Hitch­cock were therr own pupils, and as soon as applications came in they would find a man competent to take cbarge of the second travel­ling dairy. In reply to the hon. member for ~outh. Brisbane, he must say it was not the mtentwn of the deJ?artment at the present time to take any steps wrth regard to forestry, simply on account of the expense. The hon. member kn~w that was a branch of th~ department in which a great d.eal of money mrght be foolishly spent or lost Without proper supervision, and a good man would be required to initi>tte a thorough ~ystem of forestry. If they were in a position to mcur the necessary expenditure it would give him great pleasu:e to inaugurate the system, but a~ the present time they were not in that posi­twn.

Mr. LUYA said they were spending £65 per annum now for nothing. Money could be found for other purposes and to supply experts for other branches of the department. Was the hon. gentleman aware that though the colony possessed abundance of timber of various kinds tit for cask staves, there had been some difficulty in getting them imported from ?ther countries? The fact was that the people mterested were poor, struggling men en~aged in an industry which was not thouo-ht to be worth cc;nsidering. The hon. gentleman ~hould shake up hrs department and see that somethino- was done in that matter. They had wealth in their timbers that few members of the Committee had any idea of. On the Downs, where they re­quired timber for staves, they had plenty of timber suited for the purpose.

Mr. CASEY : What sort of timber?

Mr. LUYA said there was white beech up there that made splendid casks. The Secretary for Lands should see that information was got upon the subject, which he could lay before the House. He would like to ask the hon. gentle­man what were the results of the annual expen­diture of £65 on Fmser's Island?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that· if the hon. member would read the report of the Surveyor-General he would see what had been done. Hon. me.mbers must know that a great deal could not be done with an annual expendi­ture of £65; but he could assure them that first­class work was being done with it, and it was not being wasted.

Mr. L UY A said he would like the hon. gentle· man to give them some information as to the growth of the kauri pine on Fraser's Island. If the hon. gentleman c01ild tell them the annual growth of the timber-that was, of the diameter­from his experience of the way the kauri pine grew in other parts of the colony he thought he could say whether the work at Fraser's Island was profitable or not.

The SECRETARY J:<'OR LANDS said he could not give that information. He knew that thousands of trees were being propagated there ; but the hon. member knew it would be impos­sible to measure them all.

Mr. HYNE said that £65 was being well spent ; but he agreed with the hon. member for South Brisbane that it was a great pity more attention was not paid to the subject. He would like to draw attention to one matter, and that was that areas of timber were sold to timber­getters. who were given a certain time to get it off the land. Just now there was a complete standstill in the trade, and the mills could not take the timber cut. If pine was cut and allowed to lie on the ground, it became useless, and the result wa• an awful waste of money to the country through· foolish and vexatious regulations. He would suggest that instruotions should be given to the land commissioners in different districts to extend in reason the time given to timber.getters to get the timber off the laud.

Mr. AGNEW said he found that from 1876 to 1889 the total expenditure in connection with forestry in South Australia was £88,084 6s. 6d., and the revenue £94,074 9s. It was not only self-supporting, but actually paid the State ; and yet here they were expending the miserable sum of £65, which was simply playing with the sub­ject. He thought the Secretary for Lands might very fairly be asked to give the matter his atten­tion, and he felt sure the hon. gentleman had all the necessary energy to bring about the best results. He had given particular attention to the fruit-growing industry, and had initiated what would prove of the greatest beue:fiit in his (Mr. Agnew's) district. If he would only apply the same energy to forest conservation he would succeed just as well.

Mr. BLACK said he had had inquiries made, when in office, as to the work being done in connection with the forestry department at J:<'raser's Island, and the report was satisfactory. Unless some alteration was made, he thought the vote was misleading. £65 was not the whole amount being spent. He believed, speak­ing from memory, that the total amount wa~ £160 and £65. R. Mitchell, the ranger, drew £160, and, in order to assist him, £65 was paid to his son. One of the lands officers at Maryborough was commissioned to visit Fraser's Island, and his report was that very good service was being done there. It would be better if the vote was so arranged that the real amount being expended

Supply. Cl N OVE:MBER.] Supply . . 1705

at that place would appear in one vote. He would like to ask the Minister if his attention had been drawn by the Under Secretary for Agriculture to the waste of public money in the endowment of agricultural and horticultural societies in some cases? Hon. memberi' must have seen in visiting some of the district societies' shows that a great deal of money w.as unnecessarily wasted in having small shows, where districts by combining might have a really creditable show. Take the case of Ipswich, Rose wood, Laidley, and Marburg, drawing .£443 amongst them in endowment ; would it not be better for those four districts to combine and have one really good show? The West Moreton district would then have a show which would really be creditable to the Southern part of the colony. He would not refer to any particular show, but hon. members must know that some of the shows were really not creditable to the Southern part of the colony. In Brisbane there was a show which was really a credit to South Queensland, but he would like to know whether the Minister could not do something which would show the necessity of abandoning four comparatively insignificant shows, and combine them in one. In the. Toowoomba district there was the Drayton and Toowoomba Agricultural and Horticultural Society and the Darling Downs Horticultural Association, one drawing .£80 10s. and the other .£26 10s. The one drawing £26 10s. it was quite evident had not many local sub­scribers. The subscriptions being insignificant, the show was insignificant in all probability.

Mr. ALAND : You are very much out there. Mr. BLACK said would it not be better to

have one good show amongst those two societies? Then there was a show at Beenleigh and one at Beaudesert; they might combine with advantage, or even join with Ipswich. He would ask whether the matter had been brought under the notice of the Secretary for Lands by the Under Secretary for Agriculture, who ·travelled about to those shows, and must have information as to· whether the money was really being well spent? Then there was the case of the Bnndaberg and Maryborough societies; would it not be better for them to have alternate shows?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS: So they have; also Gatton and Laidley.

Mr. BLACK said he hoped the principle would be more largely adopted in the South, and then they would no longer witness the spectacle of exhibits which, in the majority of cases, were anything but a credit to the district in which the shows were held.

Mr. BARLOW said the shows had an effect beyond what was exhibited. They brought people together, shook them up, and enlarged their ideas. No doubt some of the shows might well be amalgamated, but he did not think the amalgamation of Ipswich, Beenleigh, Beau­desert, and the other places mentioned by the hon. member could be profitably carried out, be· cause commercially and agriculturally they had no connection with each other.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that both the Under Secretary and Professor Shelton had brought the matter under his notice, and everywhere they had endeavoured to impress upon the people the desirability of amalgamat­ing. He believed that before long the example set by Bundaberg, Maryborough, and Gympie, and by Gatton and Laidley, would be followed by other societies.

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said to revert to the question of forestry, he believed the timbers of Queensland were unequalled by those of any other country ; and if the products of the colony in

that direction were more fully known in Great Britain, a very lucrative trade would spring up. When in England, he went to the Kew Gardens, where a pavilion had been erected in which the timber exhibits at the Indian and Colonial Exhibition were preserved. Entering the pavilion, he saw a magnificent collection of timber from the various British dependencies arranged in such a way as at once to excite admiration and curiosity; but he was very sorry to see that Queensiand did not occupy a very prominent position as a timber-prcducing country. Western Australia, South Australia, New South Wales, even Tasmania, made a much better show than Queensland. In any future exhibition in the old country he hoped the great timber-producing interests of the country would not be lost sight of, and that it would be shown that Queensland could produce matchless timber, both as regarded variety and beauty, as com­pared with the other Australian colonies.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said the department was doing the best it could to bring under the notice of the public of Great Britain the very valuable timber resources of the colony. At the present moment they were having manu· factured in Brisbane the fittings for the Queens­land court in the Imperial Institute. In Eng­land there were already over 400 varieties of Queensland timber, which would be shown in the court as soon as the fittings were completed. Some of those timbers were in the rough, others were polished, and others veneered. They were all numbered, and there were duplicate numbers in the Agricultural Department, so that anyone wishing to purchase had only to quote the number to the department and the order could be at once carried out.

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said he sincerely congratulated the Minister upon what he had done; and he was certain it would be gratifying to the country to be made aware of his action in that direction.

Mr. ALAND said the Toowoomba Horticul· tural Association had been referred to by the hon. member for Mackay, who seemed to think that because that association had drawn so very small an amount from the Treasury last year it was doing a very small amount of good. He could assure the Committee that though a small society it was one of the best in the colony, and was the only one, as far as he knew, which maintained its regular monthly meetings and published regular reports of its proceed­ings. If the hon. member would only visit Toowoomba to-morrow, when the society held its summer exhibition, he would see such a display of flowers as would gladden, and at the same time soften, his heart. "With regard to the holding of shows alternately in different towns, the objection was that the expendi­ture was greatly increased, as they would have to keep up two showgrounds. The Royal Agricultural Society had been started to hold shows alternately in Warwick, Dalby, and Toowoomba; but it was found that the expense was too heavy, and the society had resolved to confine its shows to Toowoomba, where they had a showground which was the admiration of the whole colony.

Mr. HYNE said that.he was pleased the sug­gestion had been made by the hon. member for Mackay, and Maryborough and Bundaberg had already agreed to hold their shows alternately. He had been president of the agricultural society for several years, and the unsatisfactory nature of the judging had been forced upon his notice. It would be wise that the different Government agricultural experts should. act as judges at the different shows, as they would be unbiased, and the exhibitors would have confidence in them,

1706 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Pastoral Leases Extension Bill.

There was great difficulty in getting judge~, and the results were unsatisfactory. He would like an expression of opinion from the hon. member for Mackay, who had had a great deal of ex­perience in those matters.

Mr. L UY A ~aid that the Secretary for Lands had almost treated his question about the meaJurement of timber as a joke, but the records of the House contained informa­tion he had given as to the growth of dif­ferent timbers. It was necessary to have data in order to know the situation and soil hest suited for the growth of different timbers. A ranger would only need to measure half a dozen of the most promising trees in his nursery to find out the growth in tlie twelve months. He was in receipt of inquiries from Genoa about some of the Queensland timbers, particularly myall and rosewood, and he had furnished his corres­pondents with all the data about their size, growth, value, and at what price they could be delivered free on board. A department of forestry, however, could undertake the work much better than a private individual.

Mr. O'CONNELL said that the vote for reserves was reduced from £5,020 to £3,000. He understood it was for botanical gardens, some of which were under trustees, while others were under the local authorities. In the case of those under trustees, were the trustees supposed to collect the money to entitle them to the endowment?

The SECRETARY ]'OR LANDS said that the trustees were supposed to collect the money. They were endeavouring to persuade the trustees to surrender their trusts, and to get the local authorities to take them over. In several in­stances that had been done, and the local authori­ties voted a certain sum, which was supple­mented by the Government. That was the best means of doing the work, unless the trustees were energetic enough to collect the money.

Mr. O'CONNELL asked if £3,000 would be sufficient?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said that he was influenced by the amount spent last year. He thou~ht £3,000 would be sufficient.

Question put and passed.

STATE NURSERIEf<. The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved

that £1,650 be granted for State nurseries­salaries and contingencies. It was intended to try an experiment in connection with the Kamerunga nursery, and if it proved satisfactory it would be extended to the Mackay nursery. It was proposed to make additions to the buildings at Kamerunga, and to take boys from the State schools under agreement for one, two, or three years, getting them to do the work of the nursery under the direction of the overseer, who would give them thorough instruction in the work. He believed that youths would be forthcoming. A greater interest was being taken locally in the work of the nurseries, and that interest would go on increasing.

. Mr. BARLOW said a gentleman of consider­able scientific attainments had requested him to suggest to the Committee the necessity of reserving some portion of the country as national parks. Hon. members knew what had been done at Yellowstone in America, and Port Hacking in New South Wales. The idea was that, as settlement progressed over the colony, some portiOn of the country should be left in a state of nature, so that they should have national parks kept for ever for public recreation. Pro­bably reserves could not be made just now, but the matter was certainly worthy of attention, as there was no better antidote to the debasing vices and blackguardism which grew up in large centres of population than such places of resort.

Mr. AGNEW said he would like to see that vote extended and two or three nurseries estab­lished further South than Mackay or Kamerunga; and he hoped that steps would be taken in that direction at an early date, so that opportunities would be given to boys in the Southern part of the colony to acquire a knowledge of agriculture. He did not object to the vote, but thought that the particulars of the contingencies might be more clearly defined.

Mr. PLUNKETT asked what was the extent of cultivation at the State nurseries?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said there were not many acres under cultivation at either place, the principal work on these being the dis­tribution of plants. At KaJr.erunga they were increasing the area under cultivation, and were putting two acres under coffee with the view of showing the people how to grow coffee and prune the trees systematically and scientifically. The great art in growing coffee was to prune the trees properly, so as to make them bear a good average crop, and not a heavy crop one year and a light one the next. Accurate accounts would be kept of the whole of the expenditure on the coffee cultivation, and the information would ~e distributed for the information of the pubhc. At Mackay there were not more than two or three acres under cultivation, and at Kamerunga not more than five or six acres.

Mr. PL UNKETT said the total vote for the cultivation of that small area was £1,650; but in addition to that there were quarters fo·,r each of the overseers, valued at £52. He was almost afraid to calculate what the cost was per acre, but he really thought they did not get value for their money.

The HoN. J. R. DICKSON said some years ago a State nursery was established at Yeulba under tentative conditions. What had been the result of that experiment?

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS said he believed it was five or six years since that was abandoned ; it was before his time in office. The reserve was still intact, and was let at a small rental. The land was good, and, consider­ing the development of agriculture in that dis­trict, the reserve mig~t be turned to useful account at some future time.

Mr. CALLAN said the suggestion of the hon. member for Ipswich to reserve particular spots in various parts of the country as national parks was well worthy of consideration. He did not know whether the Barron Falls had been resened; but i'f not they should be. He hoped the suggestion would be taken into consideration and acted upon.

Question put and passed. BOTANIC GARDENS.

The SECRETARY FOR LANDS moved that £2,134 be granted for botanic gardens­salaries and contingencies.

Question put and passed . The House resumed ; and the CHAIRMAN

reported the resolutions. On the motion of the CHIEF SECRETARY,

the resolutions were ordered to be received to­morrow; and the Committee obtained leave to sit again to-morrow.

PASTORAL LEASES EXTENSION BILL. RECOMMENDATION BY THE GoVERNOR.

The CHIEF SECRETARY said : Mr. Speaker,-I inadvertently omitted this after­noon to communicate to this House a message from His Excellency the Governor, in reference to the Bill to authorise the extension of the terms of leases of holdings and runs, in certain

Formal Motion. [2 NovEMBER.]

parts of the colony, on condition of improve· ments being made thereon to prevent the incursion of rabbits. The Bill is, therefore, improperly before the House; and I propose now to communicate to the House the Governor's message, and introduce the Bill in accordance with law. I have it in command to communicate to the House that His Excellency the Governor, having been made acquainted with the provisions of the Bill, the introduction of which was this afternoon declared to be desirable, recommends the necessary appropriation to give effect to it.

FIRST READING.

The CHIEF SECRETARY presented the Bill, and moved that it be read a first time.

Question put and passed; and the second read­ing made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

ADJOURNMENT. The CHIEF SECRETARY said : Mr.

Speaker,-! move that this House do now adjourn. I do not propose to take the motion which stands in my name for to-morrow until a later dav. The first business to-morrow will be the motion of which the hon. member for Murilla has given notice; after that the Harbour Dues Bill; then the second reading of the Pastoral Leases Extension Bill ; and then Committee of Supply.

Question put and passed. The House adjourned at five minutes to 10

o'clock.

Harbour Dues Bill. 1707