Interviewing Techniques for Fraud NSAA IT Conference October 9, 2008 Presenter: Jonathan Trull.

Interviewing TechniquesInterviewing Techniquesfor Fraudfor Fraud

NSAA IT ConferenceNSAA IT ConferenceOctober 9, 2008October 9, 2008

Presenter: Jonathan TrullPresenter: Jonathan Trull

Learning ObjectivesLearning Objectives

• Why interview for fraud?

• Communication – How does it work?

• Understand 3 types of fraud interviews

• Mechanics of fraud-based interviews

• Detecting deception, half truths, omissions, and inconsistencies

State Employee Accused of State Employee Accused of Stealing $11 millionStealing $11 million

Why Interview for Fraud?Why Interview for Fraud?

• People actually admit they’ve committed fraud, abuse, or other illegal acts when confronted.

• People who have knowledge of wrongdoing but aren’t involved in fraud often won’t come forth with information unless asked.

• Quickly identifies control weaknesses.• Standards.

Auditing StandardsAuditing Standards

• Yellow Book

• FISCAM (Exposure Draft)

• SAS 99

Government Auditing StandardsGovernment Auditing Standards

…”auditors should plan and perform the audit to obtain reasonable assurance about whether the financial statements are free of material misstatements, whether caused by errors or fraud.” (4.27)

Government Auditing StandardsGovernment Auditing Standards

“In planning the audit, auditors should assess risks of fraud occurring that is significant within the context of the audit objectives. Audit team members should discuss among the team fraud risks….Auditors should gather and assess information to identify risks of fraud…” (7.30)

FISCAM (Exposure Draft)FISCAM (Exposure Draft)

• Incorporates Government Auditing Standards relevant to financial and performance audits.

• Assess risks of fraud significant to audit objectives.

• References SAS 99.


• If work is performed as part of broader financial or performance audit, the auditor should coordinate with other audit teams.

• Communicate fraud risks associated with IT to overall fraud team.

• Hold brainstorming session.• Design procedures to provide reasonable

assurance of detecting fraud, if risks are significant.


• Specifically highlights ERP systems and the need to design procedures to identify system-based overrides.

• Overall, auditor is responsible for being aware of vulnerabilities to fraud associated with the area being audited to identify indications that fraud may have occurred.

SAS 99SAS 99

• SAS 99 wants us to ask MORE questions of management PLUS a bunch of additional questions of others (governance committee, internal audit, and other staff)

• Sometimes people with knowledge of actual or potential fraud are just waiting to be asked…

SAS 99SAS 99

The auditor's inquiries of management and others within the entity are important because fraud often is uncovered through information received in response to inquiries. One reason for this is that such inquiries may provide individuals with an opportunity to convey information to the auditor that otherwise might not be communicated.

SAS 99SAS 99

Making inquiries of others within the entity, in addition to management, may be useful in providing the auditor with a perspective that is different from that of individuals involved in the financial reporting process. The responses to these other inquiries might serve to corroborate responses received from management, or alternatively, might provide information regarding the possibility of management override of controls—

What is Communication?What is Communication?

The process of effectively sending and receiving information, thought, or feeling.

Whether verbal or nonverbal communication, it is essential that we analyze communication (1) within context, and (2) as a pattern.

Modes of CommunicationModes of Communication

Five methods/modes of communication:

(1) Nonverbal (4) Speaking

(2) Reading (5) Listening

(3) Writing

Elements of ConversationElements of Conversation

• Expression• Persuasion• Therapy• Ritual• Information Exchange

• Remember – An interview is just a structured conversation.

Facilitators of CommunicationFacilitators of Communication

• Fulfilling Expectations• Recognition• Altruistic Appeals• Sympathetic

Understanding

• New Experience• Catharsis• Need for Meaning• Extrinsic Rewards

Inhibitors of CommunicationInhibitors of Communication

• Competing Demand• Demands for Time• Ego Threat• Repression• Disapproval• Loss of Status• Etiquette• Trauma• Forgetting

• Chronological Confusion

• Inferential Confusion• Unconscious

Behavior

Establish BaselineEstablish Baseline

It is critical that we establish a baseline or calibrate the subject of the interview.

How do we calibrate a subject?

• Attempt to relax the subject

• Establish rapport early

Nonverbal CommunicationNonverbal Communication

Over half of our communication is made up of nonverbal communication or body language, that tone makes up about one-third of our communication, and that less than twenty percent of communication is made up of the words we use.

NonverbalNonverbal

• The Head– Tilted to one side indicates listening– Chin dropped to chest indicates acceptance

of guilt or depression

• The Face– Turns pale– Becomes flushed, red, or splochy – Onset of tics

NonverbalNonverbal

• The Nose– Touching nose indicates stress

• The Mouth– Yawning continuously– Yawning to stall or fake boredom– Placing pens and other objects in mouth

• The Eyes– Shifting eye behavior

NonverbalNonverbal

• The Eyes– Blink rapidly– Look away during certain responses– Stare intently during certain responses

• The Arms and Shoulders– Arms crossed and hands clenched– Shrugging shoulders to questions

NonverbalNonverbal

• The Hands– Finger tapping or drumming– Playing with jewelry– Checking watches– Wringing hands

• The Legs– Crossing/uncrossing legs– Bouncing legs

NonverbalNonverbal

• The Feet– Lightly tapping feet– Stomping feet

• Posture– Lean body away from interviewer– Lean body toward door or exit

Nonverbal ClustersNonverbal Clusters

• Nonverbal signals come in clusters.

• No signal by itself tells you anything.

• Consider all signals as part of a pattern.– Examples: Subject sits behind a desk or table

and leans toward the door, quivering chin and crossed arms with clenched fists, deep sigh and slumping shoulders, crossing hand behind head and yawning

Observing Interview ReactionsObserving Interview Reactions

• Proxemics

• Chronemics

• Kinetics

• Paralinguistics

ToneTone

Tone is the inflection or sound we give our works to express a mood or emotion.

• How are you? “Fine.”

• “Fine” can convey a wide range of meanings, including sarcasm, gratitude, or irritation.

WordsWords

• The words people use and the order in which the words are used is important.

• We tend to communicate through one of three senses: Sight, Sound, or Touch

Communication AnalysisCommunication Analysis

• What did the subject say?

• What did the subject NOT say?

• Vocabulary, parts of speech, syntax, and structure form the basis for analyzing communication.

VocabularyVocabulary

• Each word the subject uses has a different meaning.

• A person maintains consistency in his language to express the same thought.

• Change of language reflects a change in the subject’s perception of the account.

Vocabulary ExampleVocabulary Example

“Mr. Smith keeps the blank checks and his signature stamp in his desk drawer. He generally keeps the drawer locked. Mr. Smith said I could use his desk to do my work while he was gone. The drawer was open when I sat at the desk on Tuesday and the checks were taken. I called John at home and he told me not to worry about it.”

Parts of SpeechParts of Speech

• Nouns – name or identify persons, places, or things.

• Verbs – describe an action, occurrence, or state of being.

• Adverbs – qualifiers that modify other words.

• Adjectives – words that describe nouns.

SyntaxSyntax

The manner or order in which a person chooses to arrange his words in a sentence. Complete sentences consist of a subject, verb, and modifying words that add detail to the events.

Syntax ExampleSyntax Example

• “Jane and I signed the check.”

• “My boss Jane and I signed the check.”

• “I signed the check and then Jane did.”

• “The check was signed by Jane, I think, and by me.”

Key Words / PhrasesKey Words / Phrases

• Adverbs –– “I usually [but not always] unlock the safe.”– “I normally [but not always] reconcile the

accounts.”– “Basically [but not completely], that’s what

happened.”– “Mostly [but not always], I get a second

signature.”


• Adverbs –– “I rarely [but not exclusively] speak with him

anymore.”– “I hardly knew him [but I did know him].”


• Temporal Lacuna –– Later on – After– Later– Next– Afterwards– Eventually

AdjectivesAdjectives

• Dishonest subjects often omit adjectives altogether or qualify their remarks – “I think…”

StructureStructure

A narrative has a beginning, middle, and an end.

Main PointsMain Points

• What is the general importance of the subject’s statements?

• Are the references and word choices consistent?

• Why did the subject choose certain words or phrases?

• Why is certain information presented first as opposed to last or in the middle of the story?

Types of Fraud InterviewsTypes of Fraud Interviews

• SAS 99 / Fraud Discovery Interviews

• Fraud-Based Interviews

• Interrogations

SAS 99 / Fraud Discovery SAS 99 / Fraud Discovery InterviewsInterviews

• Who do we interview?– Everyone

• Who performs the interviews?– Financial Auditors– Performance Auditors– IS Auditors

SAS 99 / Fraud Discovery SAS 99 / Fraud Discovery InterviewsInterviews

• What questions do we ask?

• Direct & specific– Are you aware of anyone within the

organization who has taken computer resources without authorization?

– Have you ever changed source code without authorization?

• Hypothetical– If someone was going to …..

Example QuestionsExample Questions

• When we’re talking about fraud in government, we’re talking about a big area. We’re not talking about taking a pen or making a few photocopies. Rather, we’re talking about a whole range of activities where employees steal from the state, lie to management, or taken unfair advantage. Do you think fraud is a problem for government in general?


• Do you think this state agency has a problem with fraud?

• If employees or managers are stealing from this agency, why do you think they do it?

• Frequently, small thefts by employees can add up to a lot of money. If you knew another employee was stealing, what would you do?


• Do you know of anyone who might be stealing or taking advantage of the state?

• Suppose someone who worked for the agency decided to steal or commit fraud. How could they do it and get away with it?

• In your opinion, who is beyond suspicion when it comes to committing fraud at this agency?


• Is there any other information you wish to provide regarding any possible fraud within this agency?

Making “routine” inquiries about Making “routine” inquiries about fraud…fraud…

• Inquire of management about:– Knowledge of any fraud or suspected fraud– Any allegations about fraud– Risks of fraud in the entity– Programs and controls that mitigate these risks– Monitoring of operating locations and business

segments; and any locations or segments that might have higher fraud risk

– If (and how) management communicates its view on business practices and ethics

– Any fraud-related reports it has made to the audit committee


• Inquire directly to the audit committee about:– The committee’s views on fraud risk– Any knowledge of fraud or suspected fraud– Mitigating controls– How the committee exercises oversight in this

area


• Inquire of internal audit personnel about:– Their views about fraud risks– Any knowledge of fraud or suspected fraud– Any fraud-related work they have done– The adequacy of management’s responses to

any fraud-related findings


• Inquire of other personnel about the existence of fraud or suspicion about fraud:– To learn more about or corroborate what others have

said about fraud risk– To allow individuals an opportunity to convey

information that might not otherwise be communicated

– To obtain perspectives that are different from that of individuals involved in financial reporting

– To learn more about management’s ability to override controls

– To determine how effectively management has communicated standards of ethical behavior

Fraud-Based InterviewsFraud-Based Interviews

The auditor has already identified problems and is seeking to clarify their cause and quantify their impact. These interviews presuppose that the subject has important information and may be misleading the questioner or lying.

Fraud Examination ProcessFraud Examination Process

• Sources of Information (tips/complaints, anomalies, SAS 99 interviews)

• Predication?• Develop fraud theory• Theory validated? Or Other theories confirmed?• Obtain documentary evidence• Interview• Prepare report

Evidence Gathering OrderEvidence Gathering Order

Fraud-Based InterviewsFraud-Based Interviews

• When should these interviews be used:– Auditor notes an important exception and

cannot rule out wrongdoing as a cause.– Wants to follow up a routine discussion of

procedures and controls.– Gets a tip that possible wrongdoing has

occurred.

Mechanics of the InterviewMechanics of the Interview

• Venue

• Introductory Phase

• Introduction of Subject Matter and Purpose of Interview

• Questioning the subject

• Review of material with subject

• Closing and relationship building

VenueVenue

• Interviews should be in person

• Location places subject at ease

• Ensures privacy

• Avoids distractions

Introductory PhaseIntroductory Phase

• Personal Introduction

• Social Amenities

• Open Discussion

Introductory PhaseIntroductory Phase

• Take Charge / Provide the Introduction• Establish Rapport• Establish the Interview Theme• Observe Reactions• Theme Development• Methodology• Physical Contact (handshake)• Establish Purpose of Interview

Subject Matter / PurposeSubject Matter / Purpose

• Be cautious when introducing the purpose of the interview.

• Example: “I am responsible for gathering information regarding the agency’s contract with ABC, Inc. I learned you were on the RFP Selection Committee. Can you help me by answering a few questions?”

Questioning the SubjectQuestioning the Subject

• The interviewer’s role is not to answer questions or provide information.

• The interviewer should spend a minimal amount of time talking, no more than 15%.

• Allow the subject the opportunity to answer the questions completely and fully without interruption.


• The interviewer should allow a few moments of silence each time the subject appears to have stopped talking.

• The interviewer should confirm with the subject at the end of the interview the information the subject provided.

• Encourage the subject to speak.


• Use a line of questioning moving from the least sensitive topics to the most sensitive.

• Follow-up on answers by using the subject’s own words.

• Focus on establishing who, what, when, where, and why.

Fraud – Question TypologyFraud – Question Typology

• Introductory

• Informational

• Closing

• Assessment

• Admission-Seeking

Question TypesQuestion Types

• Open or Indirect

• Closed or Direct

• Probing or follow-up

Open QuestionsOpen Questions

• Can’t be answered with yes/no response.

• Pros: Useful when you’re not sure of what information you need or if you want to know how someone feels about an issue.

• Cons: Can take a lot of time and requires more note taking, more difficult to control, and interviewee may not be sure of what you want.

Closed QuestionsClosed Questions

• Answered restricted to a few choices (yes/no)

• Pros: Useful when answers require little or no explanation, saves time, and makes it easy to tabulate results.

• Cons: Limits information that can be obtained

Probing/follow-up QuestionsProbing/follow-up Questions

• Asking another question to clarify or obtain further information about a interviewee’s response.

• Pros: Useful when the interviewee provides inadequate answers, stimulates discussion, and can be used to resolve inconsistencies.

• Cons: Can make interviewee become defensive


• Confronting the Subject– Avoid confrontation until later in the interview– Handle and manage confrontation to your

advantage - better to focus on clarification

I’m confused. You told me that you always got a second signature on checks over $500. However, you told me you signed the check to ABC, Inc. and mailed it. Am I missing something?


• Go from broad to the specific.

• Move from the indirect to the direct to elicit information.

• Allow the subject to speak. The role of the interviewer is to observe, to guide, to steer, to collect, and most importantly, to listen.

Review of Interview MaterialReview of Interview Material

• Confirm with subject that the information provided is accurate.

• Go critical point by point and get affirmative verbal responses from subject. Make corrections where necessary.

• Is there any other information relevant to our discussion that we haven’t covered?

Closing and Relationship Closing and Relationship BuildingBuilding

• Thank subject for time.

• If applicable, thank subject for cooperation.

• May be good to repeat question about any further information not covered.

Conducting the InterviewConducting the Interview

• If something is not clear, keep asking

• Use follow-up questions as needed to clarify issues

• Drill-down on an issue• Don’t let your

question go unanswered

Active ListeningActive Listening

• When the listener provides feedback (verbal and/or non-verbal) to the speaker on the extent to which the speaker’s message has been understood and will be retained.– Restating in your own words what the person said.– Repeating exactly what the person said– Reflecting to show you understand how they feel

(“You were pretty upset by this…”)– Summarizing (“These seem to be the main ideas you

stated.”)

Active ListeningActive Listening

• Non-verbal techniques– Maintain appropriate eye contact– Occasionally nod and display understanding

and interest– Pause occasionally to let interviewee know to

continue– Voice inflections– Body Language

Interview Don’tsInterview Don’ts

• Don’t ask more than one question at a time.• Don’t jump to conclusions• Don’t assume you know the response • Don’t interrupt or debate with the interviewee• Don’t monopolize the conversation (70/30 rule)• Don’t think about the next question• Don’t read documents• Don’t be annoying (finger tapping, clock watching)

Building RelationshipBuilding Relationship

• To establish a balanced relationship between the interviewee and yourself

• Your voice should be calm

• Show interest in what the person is saying

• Don’t indict the person during the interview


• If the subject perceives you as a professional and someone that is honest, they are more likely to be helpful during the interview.


• If individual is reluctant:– Keep calm, don’t become frustrated– Use positive language– Use gentle persistence in asking questions– If need to, reschedule the interview

Note TakingNote Taking

• Note taking tips:– Don’t tape record the interviews– Take accurate and complete notes, but don’t

distract the interviewee– Try to avoid taking notes when the

interviewee is talking about a sensitive subject– Begin each interview on a clean page.


• Identify the date, time, and place of the interview and all individuals present during the interview.

• Obtain biographical data for the subject, including telephone numbers, position, title, etc.

• Initial and date the notes.


• Document the interviewer’s questions.

• Take verbatim notes if possible, Concentrate on subject’s responses to:– Nouns– Pronouns– Verb Tense– Qualifiers– Indicators of responsibility, innocence, or guilt


• Do not document conclusions or interpretations.

• Report any unusual changes in body language.

• Turn notes into typewritten report IMMEDIATELY!

Habits of Successful Fraud Habits of Successful Fraud InterviewersInterviewers

• Takes minimal notes

• Does not interrupt the interviewee

• Asks open-ended questions

• Follows a logical – usually chronological – question sequence

Advanced Interviewing SkillsAdvanced Interviewing Skills

• More experienced auditors, not new staff, should do these interviews

• Be prepared, but don’t follow a checklist

• Put the subject at ease

• Be conversational

• Make good eye contact

• Get the subject talking…let subject talk

Interview versus InterrogationInterview versus Interrogation

Interview• Purpose: gather info.• Nonaccusatory• Free-flowing• Interviewer speaks 5%• Stay within social zone• Note taking O.K.• No Miranda warning

required• 30-60 minutes

Interrogation• Purpose: get a

confession• Accusatory• Structured• Interrogator speaks 95%• Start at personal zone,

move to intimate zone• No notes (until after

confession)• No time limit

ReferencesReferences

• Interviewing and Interrogation, by Don Rabon

• Beyond the Numbers: Professional Interviewing Techniques, by ACFE

• Finding the Truth, by Erwin Sulak

That’s All Folks!That’s All Folks!

Interviewing Techniques for Fraud NSAA IT Conference October 9, 2008 Presenter: Jonathan Trull.

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