How Robert Greene Seized His Moment of Opportunity To Launch One of The Most

Successful Writing Careers in History

Professionally I:

z Created the 90 Day Year. A program for business owners who are frustrated with their level of performance and want to learn the art & science of execution,

z Failed at several businesses. (One of those I lost my entire life savings.) But, I also won at enough to turn them into seven and eight figure ventures,

z Worked all over the world. 82 countries total,

z Coached thousands upon thousands of athletes on developing their mental game,

z Advised & Mentored hundreds of business owners on high performance and personal leadership.

z Built a software company.

z And, I’m not done yet...

Personally I am:

z A husband to a beautiful, smart and z financially sharp woman, who really wants

a third baby (unfortunately we haven’t mastered two),

z A father to two little girls, whom aren’t very good sleepers, giggle a lot and are obsessed with ‘horsey’s’ and merry-go-rounds,

z A daily letter writer. I’ve written over 3600 personal letters to people. (5 a week since I was 23),

z A farmboy from Schuler, Alberta, Canada. z A New Yorker, living in Chelsea.

ABOUT TODD HERMAN

Want to go from HAVING great ideas,

to consistently EXECUTING

on great ideas?

Discover The ‘90 Day Year’ Transformation HERE

Entrepreneurs struggle with the chasm that separates starting something and finishing it. Let me show you the system for achieving massive growth in

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Episode 3 – Robert Greene

Show notes at: http://bit.ly/GreeneGrit

How Robert Greene Seized His Moment of Opportunity To Launch

One of The Most Successful Writing Careers in History

Todd Herman: Welcome to Episode #3 with mega best-selling author and bad-ass with

a pen, Robert Greene.

Welcome to the Grit ‘n’ Hustle podcast with your host, entrepreneur, and internationally

acclaimed ultra-high performance and leadership advisor, Todd Herman. The place to

hear 100% real and raw stories of how high achievers actually made it with no cotton

candy fluff, no filler, and no faints, just actionable inspiration to keep you learning,

growing, and striving to reach new personal bests.

Without any more delay, here’s your host, Todd Herman.

Hello Grit ‘n’ Hustle Nation. If this is your first time listening in, thank you for choosing

us to spend some time with today. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast over at iTunes.

Now, just like all the episodes, we have show notes, transcripts, and actionable tips over

at the blog. You just need to go to http://toddherman.me/blog to dig into all the goodies

that we have there.

If you’ve ever heard about the value of having a mentor or mentorship, I just wrote the

definitive guide on finding and becoming a mentor. If you just text the word “hustle” to

38470 it will magically appear in your hands through the power of good old technology.

I have had the great fortune of having some incredible mentors in my life and those

mentors easily accelerated my path to achieving new successes by steering me around

road blocks that would’ve normally slowed me down and also introducing me to better

quality people to help me out as well.

It’s the question I get asked the most about so I created a guidebook to help you reap

the benefits of a great mentor. And, if you are in a position to be a mentor to others you

will get incredible value from the structure of how to make it a win-win for both sides.

Again, just text “hustle” to 38470. If you’re outside the U.S. and Canada just go to

toddherman.me and you can snag it there.

Now, onto today’s show.

Today’s guest is none other than Robert Greene, the author of the New York Times

Bestsellers, The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction, The 33 Strategies of War, and

The 50th Law. His highly anticipated fifth book, Mastery, examines the lives of great

historical figures such as Charles Darwin, Mozart, Paul Graham, and Henry Ford and

distills the traits and universal ingredients that made them masters.

In addition to having a strong following in the business world and deep following in

Washington, D.C, Greene’s books are hailed by everyone from war historians to the

biggest musicians like Jay-Z and 50 Cent as being Bibles that they follow. It’s a great

interview. He shares a great story of something an English teacher said to him after he

handed in a paper that completely changed the way he looked at writing.

He also shares some stories and examples of mistakes people make when writing and

the overall perseverance he had to go through and the mindset that he had when he got

the opportunity to write his first book, The 48 Laws of Power.

It was basically a do or die situation for him, he thought, and he shares that kind of

experience that he went through. Anyway, let’s jump into the interview with Mr. Robert

Greene. I hope you enjoy it.

Todd: Mr. Greene, thank you so much for joining us today on the Grit ‘n’ Hustle podcast.

Robert: Thank you for having me, Todd. My pleasure.

Todd: Well listen, it’s an exciting interview for me because I’ve been a long admirer. I’m

not going to play the fan boy type thing, but I’ve been a long admirer of your work simply

because when I take a look at the manifestos that you have put out there and think of

the quantity of work it takes to get something like that produced, it’s very impressive to

someone like me. So kudos and a hat tip on that.

Robert: Thank you. They are labors of love that take two to three years to produce so I

appreciate any feedback like that.

Todd: What are some of the exciting project/projects that you are working on right now?

Robert: Well, 80% of my time is on my new book which is tentatively titled, The Laws

of Human Nature. My last book, Mastery, had a chapter on what I call social intelligence.

I had a lot of feedback from readers who found that chapter very interesting but wishing

there was more.

I thought I would turn it into an entire book in which I kind of map out what I consider

timeless elements in human nature that you will find in almost everyone that you deal

with; things like narcissism, power, emotion, how we need to have a purpose in life, the

role that your attitude plays.

These elements are just deeply embedded in our nature. I am investigating it so by the

time you finish this book you will kind of have a better sense of what motivates the people

around you. That’s mostly what I’m working on.

I’m also working on a television project as I am in Los Angeles.

Todd: And anybody in Los Angeles has to be working on that, right?

Robert: It is a requirement for living here, that you have to be working on a screen play.

But I am actually working on a dramatic version of The 48 Laws of Power so that takes

up some of my time. But mostly it’s on the book.

Todd: So, a dramatic version of that…I’m trying to get my head wrapped around how

that will play out. So is that going to fall like a main character trying to implement things

or something?

Robert: It can’t be too tightly about the book. That is what a lot of it will be where there

is a kind of Machiavellian mentor figure and the younger person. But if we got too obvious

it wouldn’t be very dramatic.

So I’m sort of disguising it within a story of these characters. In the process you’re kind

of learning about the laws. It’s been years of trying to do this and finally I think I know

how to do it but in this city, 0.0001% of anything you ever think of ever gets made. So

it’s just the reality.

Todd: Yes, I am just fascinated with the current project you have going on with The

Laws of Human Nature. Is there, by chance, a chapter or anything you are going to touch

on with regard to the imposter syndrome? If there’s not, if I could just insert one sliver,

that is a huge struggle.

With me operating in this world for a long time it is a real beast. Typically, the imposter

syndrome is something that females struggle with. But I see it in men now too, simply

because of the nature of this “broadcast yourself” world that we live in.

Robert: I might be giving it different names. It might be scattered in a few chapters.

But I’m currently working on a chapter on narcissism. In narcissism there are certain

types and sociopaths who kind of create a false self, kind of an imposter.

There are other chapters about how to read and decode people and see through their

masks and see through them. I don’t know, think it’s sort of scattered throughout the

book. I didn’t focus one chapter on it. But maybe I should.

Todd: Listen, you are definitely the author expert. I am not. That’s exciting and I’ll be

looking forward to that when it comes out. But, to kind of pull the thread back and find

out more about what has shaped you, were you someone who, from an early age, always

wanted to be an author or published author or a writer?

Robert: I think it goes back pretty far. I know when I was about eight or nine I wrote a

novel. I am sure it was a really awful novel. I know I was drawn to it from a very early

age. I wasn’t thinking about publishing books, but I love reading.

As I got older and in high school then I was a bit of a lost soul. I thought maybe writing

was the one thing I was good at and maybe that is what I would become. Slowly, as I

had a career in journalism and worked in other areas, I developed the skill and began to

see that it is really the only thing I can do, fortunately.

Todd: You mentioned “lost soul” in high school. Was that kind of your high school

experience?

Robert: I was a very good student. I loved sports and did do sports. But I also got into

drugs for a while heavily and got in with the wrong crowd. I had really long hair.

Todd: And long hair always means you are doing something wrong, right?

Robert: Yeah, I think so. I don’t know what it means now but back then it did. It was

kind of a mix. I was doing well in school and got into a good university. But something

also wasn’t quite clicking with me. I didn’t feel happy about something. I was searching.

I was a bit of a slight outcast, a bit of a druggie. And then, fortunately, in college I kind

of got my act together.

Todd: Do you think that’s a common experience amongst a lot of people in high school

or just middle school/high school throughout because it isn’t really a good reflection of

what society is typically after?

In high school you don’t really don’t have much of a choice; whereas, outside of high

school you do have a choice, you can kind of go find your own niche. In high school it’s

almost a penitentiary in some ways, there is a wall around you and you’ve kind of got to

try to find your place.

Robert: Yes, and when you’re in those years people are kind of brittle. Everyone is

looking for their identity. That’s why they are all trying different things on and seeing if

they fit into this group or that group.

Everyone is so insecure but they’re not admitting it. I was insecure but I couldn’t fit into

any group. So I really had nothing to rely on. I didn’t have enough friends. I had some

friends. And you certainly can’t turn to your family.

I read a lot and did drugs and went on weird trips and hiked the mountains and things

like that. When you go to college (sometimes, it’s not everyone’s experience), you’re

around people that are more your type and you feel more comfortable.

I didn’t feel comfortable in my high school. My high school was a surfer’s school here in

Los Angeles right near the beach. Everyone was a surfer. I really kind of hated that

culture and I still kind of hate it so I didn’t really fit in.

Todd: You talked about doing drugs. Were there any absolutely terrible moments of drug

use at all for you while growing up?

Robert: No, actually, my memories of it are very positive. I shouldn’t say that because

if there are kids out there…I did a lot of psychedelic drugs and things like that. I really

didn’t have any bad experiences. I had a lot of fun, interesting moments. I have great

stories to tell.

But I’m glad it was just a period in my life and I don’t really do anything anymore. I’m

not at all embarrassed about it. But, when I look back on it, I think of it as a positive

thing.

Todd: I can’t believe a master storyteller leaving me on the edge when you say, “I’ve

got great stories.” So, is there one good story that you can share?

Robert: Oh, they are kind of silly. But, I remember one time when I was about 17. It

was the first time I tried LSD. I was tripping and so high. I had to go home to my parents,

because that’s where I lived.

I forgot they were having a dinner party. My parents are really very lovely people. It was

a very middle class dinner party with all of their friends. It was very formal and here I

was tripping my brains out with my long hair.

I had the best time. I was sort of a shy kid and I was suddenly very sociable. People were

just amazed that I was talking to them, laughing, and they had no idea what was going

on. My mom, to this day, doesn’t know what happened.

That was sort of the feeling that I was tripping but, “I can handle these people” like I

could never handle them before. It is things like that, stuff like that.

Todd: So, your mom and dad’s take-away from that moment was, “Geez, we should do

more dinner parties. It seems like it really brings out Robert’s personality.”

Robert: I guess so.

Todd: So you mentioned you had a bit of a normal middle class upbringing. Brothers,

sisters, big family?

Robert: No, I just had one older sister who I am very close to. My dad was just a

salesman of chemical supplies. He did reasonably well but it was just solidly, solidly middle

class. It was a good neighborhood.

We lived in these hills in L.A. It was a great place for a child to grow up and play and

everything. I have no complaints or anything at all. My parents were really great.

Todd: Was there anything that you had to endure? Were there any sort of really hard

moments that you had growing up that kind of helped shape who you are?

Robert: You know, I think just reading books was the main thing for me because I found

the life in L.A. at that time kind of boring. Everything seemed sort of boring to me.

I love war. I was just always really interested in warfare and World War II was my

obsession. I could go into a book, I could go into history, or I could read a novel and

suddenly I was transported into Russia, Napoleon, and I had a very rich fantasy in that

life and imagination.

I think that is what saved me. If I had gotten into video games instead of exercising my

imagination I don’t think I would have been able to write books. So that was sort of the

saving grace for me, I think.

Todd: What was it, specifically, about war and warfare that really drew you in?

Robert: I don’t know. How do you explain something like that? When we were kids we

loved playing with Army men and toy guns and mimicking war. It was just something

that excited me so much. I loved any kind of footage on World War II and those

documentaries. It is so dramatic and so larger than life.

Of course I love things about strategy. When you are having to strategize, it’s one thing

to be a business person dealing with strategy, but when your strategy means life or death

it’s just on another level.

I remember when I was about nine years old I ordered some books from a catalog that

they gave you back then, that’s what you would do. I ordered 30 books on World War II.

I read every single one of them so it goes back pretty far for me.

Todd: Was there any special sort of leader or general or character that really stood out

for you from World War II that you really admire?

Robert: Well, I have several and I have written about them. I know my earliest

fascination was Winston Churchill. He wasn’t really a field general although he sort of was

early in his career. But then, I love Patton.

The movie Patton came out when I was a kid. I also liked Rommel because there was

also a movie about Rommel. I got fascinated with Dessert War and D-Day.

Then, of course, for some reason out here, my father served but he wasn’t in action. He

repaired planes for the Navy so we were always going to the Navy air shows and I was

just sort of into making models. I don’t know if kids do that anymore, but model airplanes

and aircraft carriers and things like that.

I think if a therapist heard all of this they would think there was something wrong with

this kid. But it was pretty normal for back then.

Todd: That’s great. So, kind of getting into your writing, did you really dive into writing

when you were in college or were you doing that through high school as well?

Robert: In high school you write. I was writing essays and things like that. Then, in

college I was writing papers and trying to write. Maybe I did try to write fiction and things

like that. Then, after I graduated I went into journalism.

That’s sort of when you seriously have to learn the skill of writing because you’re on

deadlines. You have to fit everything into 1,000 words, or whatever it was. That’s when

you kind of develop a real skill.

It was sort of a process. I remember in high school, a key moment was when I turned in

a paper in 10th Grade English. I thought I had written the greatest paper ever in the

history of mankind about some book.

The teacher sent it back with a really bad grade. I wasn’t used to getting bad grades and

I was shocked. I asked him, “I thought this was really good?”

He told me, “You are writing as if you’re writing for yourself. You’re not thinking about

your audience. There’s too much there. It’s almost as if you’re being egotistical about it.

You always have to think about your target and not be in yourself.”

That was one of the most memorable writing lessons that stuck with me for a long time.

High school has moments, and then college, and then early career in journalism were

sort of the shaping things.

Todd: That’s an amazing lesson. What would someone who is writing for themselves

look like in the writing itself?

Robert: I see it all the time in people now. It is my major critique of all of the writing I

see in the newspaper or other books, etc. Your language isn’t precise. You use words

that you don’t need to use. There are too many adjectives. You are trying too hard to

impress. You are saying things in a cute, clever way when it doesn’t need to be.

The role of good writing is to communicate effectively. That doesn’t mean you can’t

sometimes be poetic because we like to be stirred. But sometimes the most stirring poetic

form of language is sparse.

I happen to love sparse writing. I don’t know why, maybe it’s a personal thing. But I like

people who communicate in a direct way that hit you in the gut and make it clear what

they are saying. If you overload what you write with too much verbiage, too many

adjectives, and you don’t think about what you’re communicating then it’s really about

yourself and not about the audience you’re trying to reach.

Todd: Are there any of those adjectives that annoy you when you see them?

Robert: Oh man, yeah. I can’t recall them now because I am an old guy. But there was

a review in the New York Times today of Stephen Colbert’s first night hosting the Late

Show. I read it online.

I wanted to take that writer and just strangle him. He was so fucking in love with himself.

It was such overwriting. There was SO much overwriting.

All I am telling your listeners is to go look today, September 9, in the New York Times at

the TV review of Colbert. There are 80 examples of overwriting in that one article.

Todd: We will have a link directly to the article on the blog when this goes live, definitely.

Robert: That’s great because it’s a good teaching example. It’s the thing, I know I’ve

got dyslexia. I didn’t get diagnosed until I was in my early 20s. I loved reading but I just

struggled with reading.

That kind of translated into writing. You end up getting this insecurity about writing. I’m

okay with it, I’ve done it for a living for a long time and have since gotten over it, but

even still I’m way harder on myself with my writing than I probably need to be. But I love

getting these tips from an absolutely super pro like yourself. Thank you.

Todd: What was your first real positive writing experience that you had?

Robert: Well, I would have to say when I was in journalism I got my first job with Esquire

magazine. It was a really good gig but I was like an intern. They put me working on their

travel section.

I wrote an article on Ireland never knowing whether they would publish it or not. I had

spent some time in Ireland after college. I had traveled around Europe. They really loved

the article and they published it. I was shocked.

That was kind of my first success, I would have to say. It wasn’t all like that afterwards

because I soon discovered journalism really wasn’t the right thing for me. It wasn’t the

best match and I even had moments where one guy three years after that experience

told me at a lunch that he thought I was not a good writer and that I should give it up

and go to law school.

I had other experiences like that. But, when he said that to me, all that meant in my head

was, first of all, you’re kind of an old bitter guy. And second, maybe there was some truth

to it in the sense that maybe writing journalism wasn’t the right thing.

I had good and bad experiences with that in that period.

Todd: There are so many people that would have that same story about some path that

they have always had a burning desire to possibly go down or that they have snuffed out

sometimes but it kind of led them back onto the path of writing. Then someone gives

them advice like this, maybe not advice, but a complaint or critique about them and then

they quit on it. Why didn’t you?

Robert: Well, I quit in the sense that I soon thereafter left the world of journalism and

never looked back. But, basically, I had a degree of self-esteem and knew that I wasn’t

really that bad of a writer as he said. Maybe the article had some weaknesses. But deep

down inside I knew I had something other people didn’t have.

I have been writing for a long time. I’m not always perfect. Sometimes I write things that

aren’t good. I have moments like that. But deep down I knew I had something different.

I had a skill, a talent.

After that I ended up going back to Europe and doing many different jobs on the

continent, teaching construction work, working in a hotel. I wrote novels and tried my

hand at fiction thinking maybe that was the way I could go.

I didn’t give up. I just shifted gears. It’s not to say it was all up hill and a rise to glory. I

had moments of doubt and, I am sure, after he told me that I felt really bad and maybe

thought I should give it up. But I came back and kept coming back.

Writing the novels didn’t work either. I couldn’t make a living and I wasn’t disciplined

enough. Sometimes, in life, the mistakes you make and the failures shouldn’t be telling

you to give up, they should be telling you to reassess and find a better path without

completely changing.

That’s sort of what my process was.

Todd: Then that is a good segue right there. You were 25 and you met a gentleman that

approached you with a book idea. Or did he need a book idea? And that’s when you

presented your idea of The 48 Laws of Power?

Robert: You are making me a lot younger than I am. Actually, that happened when I

was 35.

Todd: Okay, sorry. But it was the 10th anniversary of your 25th birthday so I was kind of

right.

Robert: You weren’t far off but you missed all of the years of Hollywood because I also

worked in Hollywood.

I was in Italy on one of my 50,000 jobs I had, I won’t even bore you with what I was

doing there, but I met a man who was also there for the same job. We were both unhappy

with the job even though we were in Italy, so we weren’t all that unhappy.

He was a book packager. His name is Joost Elffers. He is a great person and I love him

dearly. He is basically a producer of books. We were walking in Venice, Italy, one day

and he asked me if I had an idea for a book.

I had obviously never written one before. Based on what we were going through in Italy

and based on my whole life and all of the experiences I had working in offices and all of

the really awful people I have known, when you work in a lot of different offices you see

a lot of really awful, manipulative people, and I certainly saw a larger share of that in

Hollywood. I just had this idea for power.

I told Joost I read a lot about Machiavelli, Cesare Borgia, Louis XIV, and all of those

people and nothing has changed. The same kind of manipulations and the same kind of

power games go on, it is just that people wear different clothes.

This would be my book and Joost go so excited. He said I should write a treatment and

he would make it happen. That was my big break in life and that was the turning point

for me.

Todd: So how long between him telling you to write the treatment…did you rush home

right then and there to your flat in Italy, or did you…

Robert: No, I was just in Italy for a few months. I came back to my tiny one-bedroom

apartment in Santa Monica. I couldn’t write the treatment because I had jobs in television

and I needed to make some money.

In order to write a treatment I would have to be able to take time off. So I waited about

five months chomping at the bit wanting to do this. Then I borrowed money from my

parents because I just didn’t have the money to do it.

It was kind of what I call “death ground”. If you have read my books, death ground

means do or die. Your back is against the wall. You either make it or you are killed. And

that’s kind of how I felt. I knew I would either make the idea happen or I would just not

make it in life and would always be struggling.

I was very desperate. I researched like a fiend. I came up with a better concept, a way

of doing this, including the laws of power. I wrote the treatment. It took about three

months and he really, really liked it.

He said he would essentially pay me $3,000 a month. Back in 1996 that was pretty good.

He told me to write the first half of the book and then we would sell it. And that’s what

happened.

It is hard for me to realize when I look back on that moment because I must have been

on a level of focus and hard work that I don’t think I have ever reached before, simply

because I was so desperate to make it happen.

Todd: That process that you went through, can you remember? I remember when 48

Laws of Power first came out. I consumed that. I had probably been diagnosed dyslexic

about a year and a half before that book came out. I ended up teaching myself photo

reading.

That was a way I could actually not get caught up in the words but could still remember

the content of what I was consuming. I probably smoked through that book in a weekend.

It is a thick book, it’s not a thin book. It probably would have cost me two months in my

previous life. It would have taken me that long to read a book like that.

I loved how it was laid out. Where did some of that inspiration come from? Or was it a

discombobulation of a whole bunch of things?

Robert: That is a good question and I don’t really know exactly the answer because it’s

pulled from your unconscious in a way and things that are just sort of you. I’m sure there

were unconscious influences from other books I’ve read that had a weird kind of

structure.

I know there are some books in other languages where they clip things on the margins

as notes and I always loved that idea so I thought of putting quotes and stories on the

margin.

It just kind of formed itself, maybe in the way my brain works, where I don’t think very

well in constructing a long, seamless narrative. That is probably why I couldn’t write

fiction. I like breaking things up into bits. So I write a story about Louis XIV and his

finance minister that illustrates my idea.

Then I can tell you what it means and keep it concise and break things up so your mind

isn’t wandering. It’s sort of a reflection of me and how I like things to be. It was a real

risk because when you hold it in your hand and open it up there is no other book that

looks like that with the colors, the breakup of the graphics, and all of that.

At one point when we first had the whole thing in at Penguin the editor wanted me to

change the structure. They thought it was too weak and weird. At that point Joost and I

(God bless him), said, “No.”

If they didn’t like the structure we would break our contract and go somewhere else. I

think other people might have been freaked out and said, “Oh gosh, we’ll do whatever

you say because it’s my first book.”

Todd: Absolutely, they would be. That’s such a strange way of going about it.

Robert: I know, I think I am very lucky because if I didn’t have Joost backing me up I

might have caved in, but on the other hand I backed him up and we both felt very secure

about this and I just felt it was the right way to do a book.

Even though there was nothing else out there like it sometimes you’ve got to take a risk.

It’s just a reflection of my peculiar way of thinking and structuring stuff.

Todd: So you wrote half of it and then you went out to sell it. How long did that take?

Did you get rejections?

Robert: Joost was the salesman because that’s his specialty. He is brilliant at it. The fish

were biting right away and he got in a slight bidding war. There were a couple of people

who turned it down and probably regret it.

Be we instantly had people who were wanting it. There were several people.

Todd: How exciting was that? How exciting was it when Joost reached out to you and

said, “Hey, we’ve got something here”?

Robert: I would have to say it was probably the most exciting moment of my life, really.

Particularly with Penguin. As a lover of books that’s like the most prestigious…the little

Penguin on the spine is so memorable. We might have had a bigger offer somewhere

else but we both wanted Penguin because it just seemed like the right place.

We got offers pretty quickly and tears could almost come to my eyes right now as I

remember that. It was a great moment.

Todd: I bet! So that books came out, I loved it. It’s like anything, there are detractors

out there. I think one of the quotes I saw said, “It’s Chicken Soup For The Soulless.” That

is a funny quote.

So you birthed this thing that is out there that you labored over and was your big break

to kind of really take this thing full time and sink your teeth into the life of being an

author. How did you deal with that?

Robert: Surprisingly, we didn’t get that much criticism. I was actually expecting a lot

more. A lot of it came from the fact that the book was so weird that it really wasn’t

reviewed in major publications. We had a lot of press but there weren’t book reviews.

So the bitchiest people were the book reviewers. I remember a book review came out

before the book was even published, the very first one, and it was quite negative. I was

a little bit upset and wrote a response to it to shred their argument.

But really, we didn’t get a lot of that. I was sort of surprised. The Chicken Soup For The

Soulless was actually a New York Magazine article and that’s what they called it. One of

the laws of power is “Court attention at all costs.”

The idea is, at some level, no publicity is bad publicity, it’s the P.T. Barnum philosophy.

Having an article like that is only just great publicity. People on Wall Street would read

that and say they wanted to read a book about that. I didn’t really have a hard time with

criticism.

To this day, I don’t get much of it, but I just learned to ignore it. I don’t get into online

battles with people. I don’t read all of the reviews. In fact, articles come out and I don’t

even read them. I just sort of stay focused on the work itself and not on the ego stuff.

A New Yorker profile came out about me in 2006. I have never read it. I just don’t like it.

I don’t want to get caught up in that stuff. I think it is a good philosophy.

Todd: Your first book, The 48 Laws of Power, it’s not a secret, has many people with

names that are in lights all the time. What is one of the cooler experiences you’ve been

able to gain from getting that book out there?

Robert: Well, I’ve met a lot of interesting people. It’s kind of like there is a ride at

Disneyland called Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride, if you are a kid, that is what it was like. Almost

from the beginning I got to meet important politicians, obviously 50 Cent and several

other rappers whom I have met.

I got to hang out with Will Smith on several of his shoots and various pro athletes.

Todd: So, is he bringing you on there to consult on something or what was it?

Robert: This was a while ago. I am trying to think, it was about six or seven years ago.

He did have a screenplay of the film called Hancock. He wanted me to read the script

and basically, from a power point of view, tell him how this super hero would be thinking.

I came up with advice and he liked it. I got to hang out on the set and then I did another

script for him and his wife and went on another set. I just did it twice. They weren’t really

paying me. We were going to work together on The 48 Laws of Power thing. Anyway,

those were great experiences.

I’m a big sports junkie and am more in tune with what’s going on in the present. C. J.

Anderson, the top running back for the Denver Broncos, is a huge 48 Laws fan. He flashed

a cover of the book on ESPN last year. We’re corresponding.

I’m going to go to a Bronco game in Denver and kind of meet the team and stuff like

that. I love the sports people I have been able to meet. That is sort of almost the most

exciting.

Todd: Ironically enough, I just got a trade offer in my fantasy league today for Rob

Gronkowski, who I took in the first round, for C. J. Anderson.

Robert: You traded C. J. for Gronkowski or the other way around?

Todd: No, I have Gronkowski and my friend wants him and wants to give me C. J.

Anderson because he took him just ahead of my guy.

Robert: That’s a tough call because Gronkowski is great. Most people would probably

say to stick with Gronkowski.

Todd: There’s a big drop off. There are only a couple of really premier tight ends in

fantasy and not to try to turn this into a fantasy conversation, you and I could probably

go on and on about it.

Robert: I would probably stick with him even though I am a big C. J. Anderson fan.

Todd: For sure. So it just seems like you’ve been on this string of success with Art of

Seduction, The 32 Strategies of War, The 50th Law as well, and then your last one, one

of my favorites, Mastery.

That is essentially a lot of the stuff I have been able to be around working with athletes

and high-level entrepreneurs. It is people whose approach to their craft of whatever it is

is just that much more refined and focused than other people.

Before we get into it though, one thing I have noticed, is there a reason behind the kind

of very angular look you have to the covers of your books?

Robert: The first three books were designed by Joost Elffers. He is sort of a master at

that. So I can’t take any credit. He consulted with me and the image for The 48 Laws has

a symbol, almost what we would call an emblem. I just love what he did and signed off

on it.

He sort of refined it for the other books. With Mastery, Joost wasn’t working on that.

Their designed just came up with something and I ended up loving it. To cover sort of

fits the theme of the book and these two pillars you are climbing up and the Letter M. I

can’t really take credit for it but I like the iconography that people have developed for

the covers.

Todd: Just getting to the book, Mastery, you obviously have in the book the importance

of apprenticeship and mentors and people like that. Have you had people in your life that

acted f or you in a way like that at all?

Robert: When you are a writer you don’t necessarily have one person in that sense. I

told you about my English teacher who had a key influence on me. There were sort of

small figures in my life. And then I would say Joost was a very good mentor for me, not

for writing, but for the business side and publishing and how to handle that world.

It was really great to have someone like that. Being mentored is not just for your own

craft but it is also about how to handle success or weird life situations. So those would

be the main ones.

My girlfriend, who I have been with for a quite a while, has helped me a lot on many

different levels. So I have all of these people that have helped me that I am very blessed

and grateful for. But there is no one single mentor.

Todd: Do you think today, it is a very overlooked part on the path of success?

Robert: I stress it very much so. I don’t think my path is necessarily the best. It is great

to have a mentor. In fact, I’ve been able to serve as one for other people. I don’t know

if you know Ryan Holiday.

Todd: Definitely.

Robert: Tucker was also a bit of his mentor, but I helped Ryan a lot on the writing side

of his career early on and getting him jobs, etc. It is extremely important to have a

mentor. I talk in the book about how we humans learn.

The whole trick to mastery, be being great, to being successful is to learn but to learn at

a fast enough rate. If you take 20 years to master a craft that is way too long. You are

going to be too old and you will miss your creative years.

But there are no shortcuts as well. You can’t just take a drug or read a book and do a

half hour every day. There are no shortcuts. But a mentor intensifies that process. It is

really the optimal learning situation because you are doing things and getting instant

feedback. You are learning from their mistakes. It is usually a one-on-one relationship.

The human brain was designed for learning from other people, from watching them, etc.

I can’t stress how important it is. The trick is how to find one. And I talk about it in the

book. But it is an extremely important part of the process.

Todd: Yes, it is a trick, definitely with my mentors it has been sort of the right place at

the right time. Some others it has been me just being a dog chasing a bone where I really

wanted to get under the wing of one particular person and managed to kind of weasel

my way in there.

He was a major help to me. Just like you said, it just made that learning curve that much

quicker and gets you out there faster.

Robert: I give many examples in the book. We live in a culture where everyone wants

shortcuts and that is a bad thing. You think just because you can do a couple of things

on your iPhone that everything in life should be that fast and simple and quick. So a lot

of books are written about shortcuts and that is not a good thing.

There are no shortcuts. In fact, the desire for shortcuts is a problem. You need to be

patient. You’ve got to develop the patience for doing reps and for practicing, etc. But,

when you’re with a mentor you’re able to learn at a faster rate.

One of the main problems you have in life is you don’t get feedback when you’re on your

own. You don’t know whether what you’re doing is actually very good. You will eventually

learn because people will tell you your novel sucked and no one reads it.

It can take you months to figure something out. If you’ve got someone there breathing

down your neck telling you not to do that, do this, write it this way, that didn’t work there

you have saved several months. That’s the only shortcut I approve of in life and it’s a

brilliant shortcut.

Todd: I agree. So, to kind of wrap things up, I’ve already taken a lot of your time, I love

firing random questions at people to sort of wrap it up. So I’m going to throw some to

you that I didn’t send to you before-hand.

What show are you watching right now that you’re obsessed with?

Robert: Ryan just got me watching Bloodline. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that.

I’m kind of enjoying it. It’s not perfect. I like the director, Peter Berg. I met him because

he was the director of Hancock. He is somebody I like a lot. I am kind of enjoying it. I

am not quite sure whether I am going to get addicted.

I liked House of Cards but my interest fell off a little bit and somewhere in Season 3 I

kind of dropped off so Bloodline is sort of my new thing, my new show.

Todd: I’m with you on the House of Cards thing. I was a massive fan but just this last

season I kind of waned a little bit. Who is someone you have met recently that really

inspired you?

Robert: Wow. I’ve been holed up in my house for over a year and I haven’t…

Todd: Totally unfair question then.

Robert: I’ve had some interesting experiences where there is someone, I can’t name

their name, who is a very important political figure in the Middle East. That’s all I’ll say. I

have been there a few times and he is a really, really interesting, smart character. He

kind of opened my eyes up.

I wrote The 48 Laws of Power but am still a little bit naïve. I’m not there dealing with life

and death crises. I’m not beating a war campaign. I’m not dealing with terrorism on my

doorstep. Here is somebody who is. He isn’t the leader so let’s not have people Googling,

etc. It’s somebody who is powerful.

He gave me a whole new context to my book and how difficult things can be. I just found

someone that intelligent in that position to be very inspiring. That might be the only one

but I can’t name his name.

Todd: Sure. Is there anything you wish you were better at saying, “no” to?

Robert: Yeah, almost everything. I say, “yes” to too many interviews but I like doing

interviews. I say, “yes” to people that have projects all the time. I say, “Yes, yes, yes”

and now I can’t. I can’t because my time is so limited and I’m older and I don’t have as

much energy. I’m learning the value of saying, “no.”

Because of The 50th Law, I get people coming to me, celebrities, who ask if I would like

to collaborate on a book. I love them and they are great but I can’t. I have to say, “no”.

Todd: There is just so much of us, you only have you. The final question, which I am

really anxious to hear what your answer would be because of your fascination with history

and your depth of knowledge with it now. If you could have personally witnessed anything

what would you have wanted to see?

Robert: You know, I love ancient history and that was sort of my major in college. It

was ancient Greek and Latin. I would have to be somewhere in the ancient world. What

a fantasy that would be. I have just written about the Peloponnesian War for this book

now, what a great battle.

The battle against the Persians in the Bay outside of Athens is where they defeated the

Persians just after the whole bit with the marathon. That is one of the most dramatic

moments in history. I advise anyone to read about the two Persian Wars. That would

have been amazing to be at.

Then, Rome. God, if I could have been there with Caesar when he crossed the Rubicon

or something like that. I am a big Julius Caesar fan. Just to have been there. Either one

of those, what a fantasy. I would have to say that.

Todd: That’s great. Well Robert, thanks so much for taking the time to kind of share your

back story and the sort of plots and milestones along the way. If people could reach out

or get in touch with you or not even get in touch but just follow you, where is the easiest

place for people to go and find you?

Robert: I keep forgetting the address for the Mastery website but it all funnels into the

same thing. The older website is powerseductionandwar.com. There is a place there for

writing to me. I do try to answer. Some of them I can’t because I get a lot but you can

write to me from that website.

Todd: We will have the proper link as well on the blog. Thanks again for taking the time.

I loved hearing your stories. I knew this was going to be a great interview. I appreciate

it.

Robert: Thank you very much, Todd. I enjoyed it. Thank you.

Todd: Cheers.

Robert: Take care.

Todd: There you have it my friend, a great example of someone who knew that if he

didn’t stab his opportunity when he got it, and he got it a little bit later in life around 35,

if he didn’t hustle hard to make that happen he was worried that it would never happen

again and he would resign himself to a life of unfulfilled dreams and goals. He is a great

example of hustle and grit and perseverance.

Again, I hope you enjoyed the interview with Robert Greene. Don’t forget to subscribe to

the podcast on iTunes. Just type in Grit ‘n’ Hustle in the search and click the subscribe

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All of the show notes, tips, links shared, and the transcript is over at the blog at

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to share over there as well.

When you do, just tag me @Todd_Herman and Mr. Robert Greene’s is @RobertGreene.

There is also a private community on Facebook where more discussion happens, behind

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community.

Alright my friend, let’s wrap this up and get you back into your day. Remember, there’s

no easy road, there’s no elevator to the top and there’s always a back story of Grit ‘n’

Hustle to any great achiever. Go out there and live a story worth being talked about.

That’s for me.

Todd Herman is out!

Show notes at: http://bit.ly/GreeneGrit

Links mentioned in this episode:

The Grit ‘n’ Hustle Blog The 48 Laws of Power

The Art of Seduction

The 33 Strategies of War

The 50th Law Mastery

TV review of Colbert

Robert's Website

Robert on Twitter

Todd on Twitter

Grit ‘n’ Hustle Facebook Group

Also Mentioned:

New York Times Stephen Colbert

Joost Elffers The New Yorker

CJ Anderson Ryan Holiday Peter Berg