FOOTHILL'S VENUS - Openherd - North America's #1 Alpaca ... · FOOTHILL'S VENUS HOLGER CABAN and/or...

I

analpaca registry inc

FOOTHILL'S VENUSHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

i rector

Alpaca ID#: 31589376Gender: FemaleDate of Birth: October 7 2008

Country of Residence: United StatesCountry of Birth: United StatesPrimary Color: 100 - WhiteSecondary Color:Third Color:Microchip #:Tattoo:Ear Tag:

Sire Owner at time of Conception:HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEENCULLEN (CU113) and CRAIGFAIRFIELD and/or ROCHELLE ANNFAIRFIELD(FA130)

Dam Owner at time of Conception:HOLGER CABAN and/orKATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Dam Owner at time of Birth:HOLGER CABAN and/orKATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Certificate Issued: December 24 2008Date Registered: December 24 2008Certificate 1 of 1

0 000031 589376

BOHRT'S MAGIC BULLETSuri R152647 - Bolivia - MF WH

BOLIVIAN ADMIRALSuri R179743 - United States - MF BG

TOP BRASSSuri R843121 - United States - MF

ACERO MARKA'S BABYLON SISTERSuri R148244 - Bolivia - BG WH

ACERO MARKA'S RUSTYSuri R152651 - Bolivia - DF WH

BOLIVIAN FLORETTASuri R166502 - United States - WH

BOLIVIAN FLORASuri R153609- Bolivia - WH

PPERUVIAN URIBE G4559Suri R123055 - Peru - MF WH

NGG PPERUVIAN DEMETRESuri R166460 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN JANITA B4150Suri R122772- Peru - WH

USER'S CONTESSASuri R1311143 - United States - WH

POWERLINE ET497Suri R113505 - Bolivia - WH

TOP DRAWER'S MOPPYSuri R156876 - United States - WH

TOP DRAWER NT626 TBSSuri R121248 - United States - WH

LUMINO ET494Suri R113502- Bolivia - WH

FRANCISCA ET094Suri R113453 - Bolivia - WH

SURICertificate of Registration

FOOTHILL'S TOP GALLANTKATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGER CABAN (CU113)

BOLIVIAN ADMIRALSuri-R179743-USAMFB

ministrator

Alpaca ID# 30465534TOP BRASSSuri-R843121-USAMF

Sex:Date of Birth:

Country of Residence:Country of Birth:Color:

DNA/Blood Case#:Microchip:RE Tattoo:LE Tattoo:

MALEJuly 05 2006

USAUSADARK BROWN

0030465534

146129313A

BOLIVIAN FLORETTASuri-R166502-USAW

Sire Owner at time of Conception:KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGERCABAN (CU113) and GREGORY HANCOCK(HR005) and/or JOHN ROBINSON (HR005)FOOTHILLS SURI ALPACAS

Dam Owner at time of Conception:KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGERCABAN (CU113)

FOOTHILLS SURI ALPACAS

Dam Owner when cria was born:KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGERCABAN (CU 113)


MAGNETIC NT842 TBSSuri-R121348-BOLIVIAMBW

BSA EVANGELINESuri-R176528-USAWMB

Certificate Issued:Date Registered:Copy 1 of 1

January 182007January 17 2007

Some of the information contained on thisCertificate has been provided by theOwner and has not been independentlyverified by the ARI.

EVA NT685 TBSSuri-R1213Q3-USAW

BOHRT'S MAGIC BULLETSuri-R152647-BOLIVIAMFW

ACERO MARKA'S BABYLON SISTERSuri-R148244-BOLIVIA B W

ACERO MARKA'S RUSTYSuri-R152651-BOLIVIADFW

BOLIVIAN FLORASuri-R153609-BOLIVIAW

BOLIVIAN CONQUISTADORHuacaya-R133827-BOLIVIA MB W

AZUCARERO ET017Suri-R113404-BOLIVIAW

POWERLINE ET497Suri-R113505-BOUVIAW

ENGRACIA ET073Suri-R113443-BOL!VIAW

Alpaca"*""% - •••Registry

dministrator

Alpaca ID# 843121Gender: MaleDate of Birth: June 8 2002

Country of Residence: United statesCountry of Birth: United statesPrimary Color: 204 - Medium FawnSecondary Color:Third Color:

DNA/Blood Case #: AL43405Microchip:Tattoo:EarTag:

Sire Owner at time of Conception:BILL RASMUSSEN and/or JAN RASMUSSEN (RA17)

sumTOP BRASS

HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and CRAIG FAIRFIELD and/or ROCHELLE ANN FAIRFII

BOHRT'S MAGIC BULLET

Suri R152647 - Bolivia - MF WH

BOLIVIAN ADMIRAL

Suri R179743 - United States - MF BG

ACERO MARKA'S BABYLON SISTER

Suri R148244 - Bolivia - BG WH

Dam Owner at time of Conception:BILL RASMUSSEN and/or JAN RASMUSSEN (RA17)

ACERO MARKA'S RUSTY

Suri R152651 - Bolivia - DF WH

Dam Owner when cria was born:GEORGE ELSER and/or JAN ELSER (A234)

Certificate Issued: August 2 2007 ,Date Registered: January 29 2003Certificate 1 of 2

0 000000 843121


BOLIVIAN FLORA

vSuri R153609 - Bolivia - WH

AlpacaTT-% JL •Registry

dmmistrator

Alpaca ID# 30368347Gender: FemaleDate of Birth: July 9 2007

Country of Residence: united statesCountry of Birth: united statesPrimary Color: 360-Bay BlackSecondary Color:Third Color:

DNA/Blood Case #: 0030368347Microchip:Tattoo:Ear Tag:

146211140A

SURIFOOTHILL'S SYRAH

HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Sire Owner at time of Conception:HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) andGREGORY C. HANCOCK and/or JOHN ROBINSON (HR005)

BOHRT'S MAGIC BULLETSuri R152647 - Bolivia - MF WH




ACERO MARKA'S RUSTYSuri R152651 - Bolivia - DF WH


BOLIVIAN FLORASuri R153609 - Bolivia - WH

Dam Owner at time of Conception:HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Dam Owner when cria was born:HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Certificate Issued: October 1 o 2007_Date Registered: October 102007Certificate 1 of 1

0 000030 368347

ACERO MARKA'S RAG TOPSuri R148291 - Bolivia - MB WH

RED LIGHTENINGSuri R826116 - United States - LRG WH

SABLLA OF BOLIVIA B8294 IMPP98Suri R809348 - Bolivia - MB WH

FOOTHILL SURI'S GARNETSuri R1222883 - United States - DB

AMERIPACA'S COSMOSuri R806680 - United States - MF BG

BLONDE BEAUTYSuri R831897 - United States - BG

SULA OF BOLIVIA B8258 IMPP98Suri R809343 - Bolivia - DF

EMPRESARIO NT826 TBSSuri R121333 - United States - BG WH

ACERO MARKA'S CECELIASuri R161176 - Bolivia- DF WH BG


FOOTHILL'S SUPER NOVAHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Alpaca ID#: 31080835Gender: FemaleDate of Birth: August 7 2008


Sire Owner at time of Conception:HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN(CU113) and DAVID J. DEGROOT and/orSYLVIA DEGROOT (D252) and NANCY B.WALKER and/or RICHARD W. WALKER(WA114)


NGG ACCOYO APACHE IISuri R803336 - United States - BG

PPPERUVIAN DULCINEA A5160Suri R139248 - Peru - MF WH

ACCOYO AMERICA BRAVOSuri R1201673 - United States - LF

PPERUVIAN BRUXO G4575Suri R123070- Peru - WH

DDF ACCOYO BELLASuri R822281 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN ELEUTERIA R0666Suri R123098- Peru - MF WH


Jam Owner at time of Birth:HOLGER CABAN and/orKATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)


0000031 080835

PPERUVIAN INCA G4581Suri R123076- Peru - WH

ZEUS ROSESuri R801787 - United States - WH

FOOTHILLS ANDREASuri R1222869 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN ORTENCIA B4218Suri R122837- Peru - WH

MAGNETIC NT842 TBSSuri R121348 - Bolivia - MB WH

BSA EVANGELINESuri R176528 - United States - WH MB

EVA NT685 TBSSuri R121303 - United States - WH

BOLIVIAN CONQUISTADORHuacaya R133827 - Bolivia - MB WH

AZUCARERO ET017Suri R113404- Bolivia - WH

POWERLINE ET497Suri R113505- Bolivia - WH

ENGRACIA ET073Suri R113443- Bolivia - WH

SURI

Registry

SURI

FOOTHILL'S SOLERAHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

listrator

Alpaca ID# 31080798Gender: FemaleDate of Birth: July 5 2007

Country of Residence: United StatesCountry of Birth: united statesPrimary Color: 100-whiteSecondary Color:Third Color:

DNA/Blood Case #: 0031080798

Microchip: 14626H71ATattoo:EarTag:







ACERO MARKA'S RUSTY

SuriR152651 - Bolivia - DFWH


BOLIVIAN FLORASuri R153609 - Bolivia - WH



Certificate Issued: October 1 o 2007Date Registered: October 1 o 2007Certificate 1 of 1

BOLIVIAN CONQUISTADOR

Huacaya R133827 - Bolivia - MB WH






ENGRACIA ET073

Suri R113443- Bolivia - WH

Administrator

Alpaca ID# 811292Sex:Date of Birth:

Country of Origin:Country of Birth:Color:


Female4 Jan 1996

BoliviaUnknownWhite

AL5744140018595807

Sire Owner at time of Conception:

Dam Owner at time of Conception:

Dam Owner when cria was born:


22 September 200425 May 1999

Some of the information contained on thisCertificate has been provided by theOwner and lias not been independentlyverified bv the ARI.


SHAYA OF BOLIVIA B8212 IMPK98KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGER CABAN (CU113)


a n d o rLOOD

Administrator

a ID# 1222845

DNA/BMicroc iRETaLETatt

0001222

464A56

SireJACK:ARM(WA1LATA!

ler at time of Conception:_j=*RMSTROMG (AR44) an

RONG (AR44) and RIC (-» ,0 and/or N^NCY WALKEDCREEK ALPACAS

er at time of Conception=ENCULLEN(CU113)a(CU113)

ILLSSUR! ALPACAS

r ler when cr~ia was born:ENCULLEN(CU113)a

Dam OKATHICABAFOOT

(CU113)ILLS SURi

CertifiesDateRCopy 1

9 February—*-7 Feb 20O

informatioMi contained aas been prcwvided by thelas not beeKi independenicARI.

SomeCertificateOwner anverified by

FGA MCLAREN F1Suri-R815293-USALFMF

J<ELLYWALKERA114)

rHOLGER

SELKIRK CREST'S LOIrHOLGER Suri-R816935-USAW

^'DNIA •and'/or

BLOOD

Administ

aca ID# 1Female25 May 2005

~~try of Origin:-try of Birth:

USAUSAMedium Brown

LI4V6516D6B13

Owner at timeCDYTILLMAN {L-MAN (TI01)

L_MAN LLAMA

f Conception:101) and/or CHERYL

& SURI ALPACAS

of Conception:FI01) and/or CHERYLOY TILLMAN (

I_MAN (TI01)

_MAN LLAMA & SURi ALPACAS

*Jwner when cHLEEN CULL

BAN (CU113)

OTHILLS SURI

fBcate Issued:•Registered:

1 of 1

CertificateRuby oi

KATHLEEN CULLEN(CU11:

INSPIRATION OF BOLIVIA ISuri-R811314-BoliviaTB

ROCKY REDSuri-R816000-USADB

SHAUNICE OF BOLIVIA B8204Suri-R811286-BoliviaW

.,: •

was born:EN (CU113) and/or HOLGER

ALPACAS

23 January 200623 Jan 2006

SHAYA OF BOLIVIA B8212 IMPK98Suri-R811292-BoliviaW

Some o — :Certific_=Owner ^=verified

T the information'— " has been pro—j — "H has not bee«tny the ARI.

en contained on this— vidcd by the• — i independently

AlpacaTT-% . :#Registry

Bministrator

Alpaca ID# 31080804Gender:Date of Birth:

Female

July 2 2007

Country of Residence: United statesCountry of Birth: united statesPrimary Color: 202 - Light FawnSecondary Color:Third Color:

DNA/Blood Case #: 0031080804

Microchip: 146232755ATattoo:EarTag:



SURIFOOTHILL'S ROSAE

HOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)





ACERO MARKA'S BABYLON SISTER

Suri R148244 - Bolivia - BG WH


ACERO MARKA'S RUSTY

Suri R152651 - Bolivia - DF WH


BOLIVIAN FLORA

Suri R153609-Bolivia-WH

EMPRESARIO NT826 TBS

Suri R121333 - United States - BG WH

AMERIPACA'S COSMOSuri R806680 - United States - MF BG

ACERO MARKA'S CECELIA

Suri R161176 - Bolivia - DF WH BG

BLONDE BEAUTYSuri R831897 - United States - BG

LUMINO ET494

Suri R113502 - Bolivia - WH

CHANEL ET043

Suri R113418 - Bolivia - WH

Certificate Issued: October 1 o 2007Date Registered: October 10 2007Certificate 1 of 1

0 0 0 0 0 3 1 080804

SULA OF BOLIVIA B8258 IMPP98_ Suri R809343 - Bolivia - DF

Alpaca•T-"% L »Registry

listrator

Alpaca ID# 30898981Gender: FemaleDate of Birth: August 19 2007

Country of Residence: United StatesCountry of Birth: United StatesPrimary Color: too-whiteSecondary Color:Third Color:

DNA/Blood Case #:Microchip:Tattoo:EarTag:

146274121A

SURI

FOOTHILL'S PESQUERAHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Sire Owner at time of Conception:DAVID DEGROOT and/or SYLVIA DEGROOT (D252)

PPERUVIAN RAMILO G4579Suri R123074- Peru - WH

HHSF PERUVIAN ACCOYO MONTOYOSuri R805586 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN TINA R0673Suri R123105 - Peru - BG WH

CLOUDYPASS1 ACCOYO LOCKESuri R1416336 - United States - BG

PPERUVIAN BARON G4580Suri R123075- Peru - WH

CLOUDYPASS1 ACCOYO MIKAYLASuri R833190 - United States - BG

6PERUVIAN ACCOYO KIKI 6785 IMPR9CSuri R808486 - Peru - WH



ABSOLUT ET491Suri R113500- Bolivia - WH

CARLINO NT884 TBSSuri R121386 - United States - MF DF

CLAUDINA ET047Suri R113422- Bolivia - WH

APPLEGATE'S CARAMELASuri R813011 - United States - BG

ICertificate Issued: September 20 200?Date Registered: September 20 2007'Certificate 1 of 1

0 000030 898981

ACERO MARKA'S DELICIA ET2249ri R154440- Bolivia - WH

Iministrator

Alpaca ID# 31080767Gender: MaleDate of Birth: September 10 2007

Country of Residence: united statesCountry of Birth: United statesPrimary Color: 100-whiteSecondary Color:Third Color:

DNA/Blood Case #:Microchip:Tattoo:EarTag:

0031080767

146227451A

sumFOOTHILL'S OPUS ONEHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

Sire Owner at time of Conception:DAVID DEGROOT and/or SYLVIA DEGROOT (D252)

PPERUVIAN RAMILO G4579

Suri R123074- Peru - WH

HHSF PERUVIAN ACCOYO MONTOYO

Suri R805586 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN TINA R0673

Suri R123105 - Peru - BG WH


PPERUVIAN BARON G4580


CLOUDYPASS1 ACCOYO MIKAYLA

Suri R833190 - United States - BG

6PERUVIAN ACCOYO KIKI 6785 IMPR98

Suri R808486 - Peru - WH



Certificate Issued: November 15 2007 .«i.\pApeiJTeDate Registered: November 142007Certificate 1 of 1

0 000031 080767

PPERUVIAN URIBE G4559

Suri R123055 - Peru - MF WH

NGG PPERUVIAN DEMETRE


PPERUVIAN JANITA B4150


USER'S EGYPTIAN LOTUSSuri R840085 - United States - WH

POWERLINE ET497


TOP DRAWER'S MOPPY

juri R156876 - United States - WH/ DNAf and/or\ iLQOQ TOP DRAWER NT626 TBS


LUMINO ET494

Suri R113502- Bolivia-WH

FRANCISCA ET094


* —AlpacaRegistry


FOOTHILL'S NOOTKAKATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGER CABAN (CU113)

PPERUVIAN URIBE G4559Suri-R123055-PERUMFW

Iministrator

Alpaca ID# 30368361FEMALEAugust 31 2006

VICEROY D252Suri-R181456-USALF

Sex:Date of Birth:

Country of Residence: USACountry of Birth: USAColor: BEIGE

PPERUVIAN RITA R0679Suri-R123111-PERUW


0030368361

146267462A

Sire Owner at time of Conception:DAVID DEGROOT (D252) and/or SYLVIADEGROOT (D252)

DOUBLE DUTCH FARMS, INC.

Dam Owner at time of Conception:KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGERCABAN (CU113)


Dam Owner when cria was born:KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGERCABAN (CU 113)

FOOTHILLS SUR! ALPACAS

CARLINONT884TBSSuri-R121386-USABW

ABSOLUT ET491Suri-R113500-BOL!V!AW

CLAUDINA ET047Suri-R113422-BOLIVIAW

APPLEGATE'S CARAMELASuri-R813011-USA B


December 22 2006December 22 2006

ACERO MARKA'S DELICIA ET2249Suri-R154440-BOLIVIAW

Some of the information contained on thisCertificate has been provided by theOwner and has not been independentlyverified by the ARI.

AlpacaTT-** . ;'•Registry

•Cx .*/

SURI

CLOUDYPASS1 ACCOYO LOCKEHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and NANCY B. WALKER and/or RICHARD W. WALKER (WA114) and DAVID DEGROOT and/or SYLVIA DEGHOOT (D252)

Alpaca ID# 1416336Gender: MaleDate of Birth: May 27 2004

Country of Residence: United StatesCountry of Birth: United StatesPrimary Color: 201 - BeigeSecondary Color:

DNA/Blood Case*: 0001416336Microchip: 087548522Tattoo:Eartag:

Sire Owner at time of Conception:

JACK W. DONALDSON and/or MIRIAM B. DONALDSON(DO63) and MARG GRONAUER (GR352) and KENNETH H.HALLEY and/or TRUDY F. HALLEY (HA408)

PPERUVIAN RAMILO G4579SAR123074- Peru - WH

HHSF PERUVIAN ACCOYO MONTOYOSA R805586 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN TINA R0673SAR123105-Peru-BG

Dam Owner at time of Conception:KENNETH H. HALLEY and/or TRUDY F. HALLEY (HA408) PPERUVIAN BARON G4580

SAR123075- Peru - WH

Dam Owner when cria was born: CLOUDYPASS1 ACCOYO MIKAYLA

KENNETH H. HALLEY and/or TRUDY F. HALLEY (HA408) SA R833190 - United StatGS - BG

Certificate Issued: May 102007Date Registered: November 10 2004Certificate 1 of 3

0 0 0 0 0 0 1 416336

6PERUVIAN ACCOYO KIKI 6785 IMPR98A R808486 - Peru - WH

alpaca registry inc

Alpaca ID#: 31589369Gender: FemaleDate of Birth: July 6 2008




Dam Owner at time of Birth:HOLGER CABAN and/orKATHLEEN CULLEN(CU113)


0 000031 589369

FOOTHILL'S LIBRAHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

USA CAMIONSuri R185434 - United States - WH

4PERUVIAN USA RUBIA 6890Suri R166820- Peru - WH

TSP ACCOYO ICE MANSuri R1427530 - United States - WH

PPPERUVIAN GLITTER 5157Suri R139245- Peru - WH

BOLIVIAN CONQUISTADORHuacaya R133827 - Bolivia - MB WH






ENGRACIA ET073Suri R113443- Bolivia - WH

SURI


FOOTHILL'S LEOHOLGER CABAN and/or KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

•irector

Alpaca ID#: 31589390Gender: MaleDate of Birth: August 27 2008

Country of Residence: United StatesCountry of Birth: United StatesPrimary Color: 100-WhiteSecondary Color:Third Color:Microchip #:Tattoo:Ear Tag:



PPERUVIAN RAMILO G4579Suri R123074- Peru - WH

HHSF PERUVIAN ACCOYO MONTOYOSuri R805586 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN TINA R0673Suri R123105 - Peru - BG WH


PPERUVIAN BARON G4580Suri R123075- Peru - WH

CLOUDYPASS1 ACCOYO MIKAYLASuri R833190 - United States - BG

6PERUVIAN ACCOYO KIKI 6785 IMPR98Suri R808486 - Peru - WH


NGG PPERUVIAN DEMETRESuri R166460 - United States - WH

PPERUVIAN JANITA B4150Suri R122772- Peru - WH

Dam Owner at time of Birth:HOLGER CABAN and/orKATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113)

USER'S EGYPTIAN LOTUSSuri R840085 - United States - WH


0000031 589390


TOP DRAWER'S MOPPYSuri R156876 - United States - WH

TOP DRAWER NT626 TBSSuri R121248 - United States -WH

LUMINO ET494Suri R113502- Bolivia - WH

FRANCISCA ET094Suri R113453- Bolivia - WH

SURI

^^^w3'rl'V4

Registry

SURICertificate of RegistrationFOOTHILL SURrS Garnet

KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGER CABAN (CU113) and KATHLEE

ACERO MARKA'S RAG TOPSuri-R148291-BoliviaMBW

Administrator

Alpaca ID# 1222883RED LIGHTENINGSuri-R826116-USALRGW

Sex:Date of Birth:

Country of Origin:Country of Birth:Color:

Female17 May 2005

USAUSADark Brown

DNA/Blood Case#: 0001222883Microchip:RE Tattoo:

LE Tattoo: 4B2F1D731C

Sire Owner at time of Conception:ANDY TILLMAN (TI01) and/or CHERYLTILLMAN (TI01)

TILLMAN LLAMAS & SURI ALPACAS

Dam Owner at time of Conception:ANDY TILLMAN (TI01) and/or CHERYLTILLMAN (TI01)

TILLMAN LLAMAS & SURI ALPACAS

Dam Owner when cria was born:KATHLEEN CULLEN (CU113) and/or HOLGERCABAN (CU113) and KATHLEEN CULLEN Suii-R831897-USA B(CU117)FOOTHILLS SURI ALPACAS

BLONDE BEAUTY


26 August 200516Aug 2005

SABLLA OF BOLIVIA B8294 IMPP98Suri-R809348-Bolivia MB W

AMERIPACA'S COSMO

Suri-R806680-USA MF B

EMPRESARIO NT826 TBSSuri-R121333-USABW

ACERO MARKA'S CECELIASuri-R161176-BoliviaDFWB

SULA OF BOLIVIA B8258 IMPP98Suri-R809343-Bolivia DF

FOOTHILL'S VENUS - Openherd - North America's #1 Alpaca ... · FOOTHILL'S VENUS HOLGER CABAN and/or...

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Transcript of FOOTHILL'S VENUS - Openherd - North America's #1 Alpaca ... · FOOTHILL'S VENUS HOLGER CABAN and/or...