Eric Goldberg Interview 02

8/13/2019 Eric Goldberg Interview 02

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A Conversation with Eric Goldberg

Following our recent sit down discussion with famed Disney animator Andreas Deja, AnimatedNews & Views Christian Ziebarth met u with one of Dejas fellow alumni at the Disney !tudio,

animator and director "ric #oldberg, most recently a director$for$hire onLooney Tunes: Back inAction% During the informal chat at alts old 'am (!hanter haunt, #oldberg so)e about hiscareer at the *ouse +ouse, ta)ing in such characters and moies as the #enie inAladdin, and co$helmingPocahontas%

Animated Views- .ets start with the recent Disney .egends ceremony where they honored !tee*artin and Art .in)letter% Did you )now about that/

"ric #oldberg- Art .in)letter a Disney .egend/ ell, o)ay, he oenedthe lace%

AV- 0eah, he oened the lace, and he was there at the 12th eent amonth or two ago, so 3 guess that counts as a Disney .egend%

"#- All 3 remember with him is Arts house arty, but youre tooyoung4

AV- hat was that/

"#- 'hat was his daily, fie days a wee) show for housewies in theafternoon% And he would interiew eole in the audience% 5robablyhis most famous se6uence in it was to hae a bunch of li)e)indergarten )ids u there calledKids Say The Darnedest Things%

AV- (h, o)ay% Didnt 7ill Cosby )ind of do something li)e that later on/

"#- 0eah, he tried to reie it 8launches into Cosby imression9 :hat are you tal)ing about/ 3ts;ell$(, you see, because you dont get much?11%=

"#- 3 wouldnt hae )nown% 3 was, lets see, when did Disneyland oen/ 3t was ;uly 11/ 3 was twomonths old4

AV- 3 was wondering why they were ma)ing !tee *artin a Disney .egend and 3 didnt want tosay, :ell, he doesnt desere that,= but 3 wondered what they had to bac) that u/

"#- +e used to lay there% +e used to lay at the #olden +orseshoe @eue and used to do his earlystandu there and lay the banjo% .i)e, you )now, one of those ally 7oag guys% 'hats why%
http://animatedviews.com/2005/a-conversation-with-andreas-deja/http://animatedviews.com/2005/a-conversation-with-andreas-deja/


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AV- ell, what 3 heard is somebody said, :(h, its because hes in that thing they hae laying atthe (era +ouse right now%=

"#- 'hats not why% +e actually used to lay there% +e used to do a ersion of what he eentuallybecame%

AV- And he was young too, robably only in his early twenties then% 3 guess he wrote for 'he

!mothers 7rothers/"#- 0eah%

AV- And then the notes about the Disney .egends said he also wor)ed in the *agic !ho on *ain!treet%

"#- 0eah, 3 can see that%

AV- +e would do tric)s, ma)e balloon animals, do magic tric)s in front of eole, so 3 guess thatwas enough for them to ma)e him a Disney .egend%

"#- ell, hes a name% And, sadly, a lot of the other eole are assing away this year%

AV- Did you wor) on that thing where hes interacting with Donald Duc) thats laying at the (era+ouse now/

"#- 3 did one big scene, at the end, with Donald and the bo of firewor)s%

AV- 3 bet he gets really mad in it%

"#- Actually, no4 +e gets snea)y, but he doesnt get mad%

AV- 3m loo)ing oer there and 3 see some Disney ictures on the walls%

"#- 0eah% 'heres some ;ohn +ench stuff in there%

AV- (ne loo)s li)e Fran) 'homas%

"#- Could be% 'hey all used to come here% e used to see *arc and Alice Dais here a lot, andFran) and (llie%

AV- 3 saw (llie the other night% +e was at the Cinderella screening% +e said a coule of things thatreally crac)ed the audience u%

"#- 0eah, he was always shar% +owd the film loo)/

AV- (h, it loo)ed really good% 3 hadnt seen it since 3 was young and 3 remember the mice, and therewas a cat, and there was a um)in that turned into a stagecoach% 'hat was about it, so it wasalmost ??B new to me% 7ut it loo)ed really good with the digital restoration% ;ohn .owry wassaying that it was robably the best restoration hes eer done out of all the things hes wor)ed on%

"#- 0eah, 3 wanted to see it but 3ll get the DVD%AV- hich of the Nine (ld *en hae you met/

"#- Fran) and (llie, *arc, ard, "ric .arson%Actually 3 met *ilt yeeeaaars ago%

AV- +e assed away in 1, something li)e that/

"#- 0eah, 3 met him when 3 was in high school, inE% 3 neer met oolie, neer met en Andersonor .es Clar)%

AV- hat was "ric .arson li)e/

"#- "ric was a sweet guy% "eryone loed him% 3 gather that he, because of studio olitics, wasgien a rough ride oer there, and he was always )ind of ushed aside in faor of some of the other
http://perso.orange.fr/disney-unofficial/Legends/Accueil.htm


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Nine (ld *en, but he was really the guy who headed u the in$studio training rogram to nurturenew talent, and eeryone loed him% 3 thin) he was a huge loss to the studio when he assed away% 3)now there were times that he chafed at the system that was there, although he would neer say itout loud% 3 didnt )now him ery well, 3 met him a coule of times, but 3 thin) its the )ind of thingwhere hed get outoted on stuff, and, ersonally, what haened to me was he was eryencouraging when 3 was trying to aly for their training rogram, and we went out for a isit when

3 was in high school and went around the studio for li)e two hours% (llie showed me some stuff onthe *oiola fromRobin Hoodand it was great% And they brought eerybody, they brought *ilt andFran), and eerybody else in to loo) at my stuff%

AV- hen they were wor)ing on @obin +ood/

"#- 0eah% 3 was really trying to get into the lace, so 3 finally alied and "ric .arson was myliaison, and 3 got thumbs down after all this encouragement% 'hey basically loo)ed at eerything 3

brought in and went, :ell, thats gag animation% e dont do gag animation%= And they went,:ell, thats design and we dont really do design%=

AV- 3f they didnt want gag and design what did they want/

"#- ell, they wanted what they do, to a certain etent, you )now%AV- hateer they secretly had in mind/

"#- 3 guess so% ell, they also wanted malleable eole% 'heir hilosohy at the time with theirtraining rogram was they didnt want eole who )new how to animate, they wanted eole who)new how to draw and theyd train them% 3n any case, "ric was always ery encouraging to me andthen they turned me down and it was li)e ulling teeth to find out why, and these are the reasons hegae me%

AV- +e turned you down or it was the owers that be/

"#- 'he owers that be turned me down% 3 thin) "ric woulde had me in in a minute% 'hats one

reason 3 went to "ngland% 3 just figured, :ell 3m not going to beat my head against the wall tryingto get in here anymore,= and the other thing is they as)ed for s)etchboo) suort from my films, so3 had a lot of anti$Nion, anti$Ford cartoons in there and then the resonse was, :ell, you oughttaget out of animation entirely and do olitical cartoons%=

AV- 7ut you didnt really want that to be your focus%

"#- 0eah, so its the )ind of thing where 3 )now he felt bad when 3 had to in him down as to whathaened% 'hese are the reasons 3 got and 3 )now it wasnt his decision% Actually years later, bless"rics heart, a friend of mine was showing my commercials reel at Disneys, after 3 wor)ed for@ichard illiams for a coule years% "ric .arson was in the audience and 7rad 7ird goes oer tohim and he says, 8imersonating 7irdGs oice9 :!o, you li)e that guys stuff, right/= :Hh$huh%= :0ou

thin) hes retty good, right/= :0eah%= And 7rad grabs him by the shirt collar and goes, :And youlet him leae, man44=

AV- 'hat sounds just li)e 7rad% 3 remember that eent at the Academy a month or so ago about theanimated erformance, and you were there and 7rad was there% +es just so almost li)e a cartooncharacter himself because hes so animated, he jums u out of his chair%

"#- (h, yeah% 3ts artially erformance art, but hey, you )now%

AV- 3ts just interesting watching him because een when he li)e stayed ut in the ulit he wasli)e, :And 3 wanted to get Ia marital fight%= And its just so funny, the way he said it and then hewent off on his big monologue about how EDs going to come bac) once the studios see one hand$drawn animated flic) does good, but he went on a big E2$minute ri session about that%

"#- 3 dont thin) hes wrong either%


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AV- 0ou jumed u out of your chair too4 'hat was funny% 3 was tal)ing to somebody later and 3said, :3 try to tell eole that 3 )now through e$mail what 7rad 7ird is li)e but 3 cant encasulatehim in writing%= 0ou cant reduce him to a sentence or two%

"#- No, you cant% +e is what he is%

AV- !o when was the .arson thing, when he said :0ou let him go=/ *aybe li)e the mid$"ighties/

"#- 3t was late !eenties%

AV- 'hat reminds me of 7illy Crystal because he tried out for !aturday Night .ie and they wereli)e, :Ah, youre not good enough,= and he turned out to be this major talent later on and he was onit a few years later%

"#- 0eah, but its funny, you )now% 3 areciate 7rads sentiment but it was the wrong targetbecause "ric robably woulde said yes% 3t was the rest of the grou% And 3 dont hold any grudges,lets ut it that way% 'hey werent loo)ing for whateer 3 had at the time, so its the )ind of thingwhere they had a ery strong idea of what they wanted for alicants there% 'hey basically wanted

eole who drew well that they could really teach from the ground u% 'hats really what they wereloo)ing for%

AV- 3 wanted to find out more about "ric .arson% 0oue got thereal strong characters li)e *ilt ahl and ard imball, and 3 guesshe was a little bit more subdued/

"#- 0eah, he was% +e was ery 6uiet, ery soft so)en and ery)ind, and maybe one reason that you didnt hear as much about himis that he just didnt toot his own horn as much%

AV- 0ou said he was the one that did the training rogram% +e wasthe one that realiJed, :ell, were going to hae to get some new

eole in here,= right/

"#- 0eah, he headed it u% 3 )now many eole who are nowtalented Disney fol)s or Disney fol)s who were talented ten yearsago and now hae to learn to do something else% 'hey sea) eryfondly of "ric% +e was their mentor% 0es, eole got mentored indiidually, (llie mentored #len,and so on and so forth, but its a )ind of thing where he was really the glue for that generation ofanimators coming u through the studio%

AV- Do you eer thin) what it mighte been li)e if youd been hired then/

"#- 0eah, 3 do% And you )now what/ 3m glad it didnt haen, you )now/

AV- 3t ended u wor)ing out% 0ou ended u getting into it later on and things wor)ed out good%

"#- ell erhas because of the circumstances and also just myown ma)e$u, 3 wound u wor)ing with @ichard illiamson @aggedy Ann and then after that going to .ondon, doing 'Vcommercials with him and learning a huge amount in terms ofgrahic design, how to animate a ariety of different styles% en+arris was at the studio, Art 7abbitt was at the studio, so

basically 3 got an animation education comletely outside of theCal ArtsKDisney ethos and could deelo my own style, whichhaily they eentually li)ed at Disneys%

AV- 3t was really helful when Aladdin came along%

"#- 0eah, 3 mean fifteen years of commercials and 3 thin) 3 cans6ueeJe something into thirty seconds4


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AV- !o, @ichard illiams% Do you hae any contact with him at all/

"#- Not ery fre6uently% +es a little reclusie right now% +es wor)ing on his own film, so 3 hearfrom his son AleL animating it all himself, and he os u eery now and again to do his masterclasses and things li)e that, and wee had dinner a coule of times% 3ts interesting because he, thelast time he was out in .A, he seemed genuinely charmed and moed that eole actually eenremembered who the hec) he was% 3t was )ind of celebrating the anniersary of@oger @abbit and

there was a whole bunch of different things, li)e his master class, and 3 thin) the fact that he wasgetting this )ind of attention, you )now, from the .A animation community, 3 thin) was eryheartening to him%

AV- 0ou didnt wor) on @oger @abbit, did you/

"#- No% 'hats a long story that 3 wont go into%

AV- Did you hae any inolement with the se6uel they tried to start u/

"#- 3 did a test of @oger% 'hey were tal)ing about doing a se6uel, they got Fran) *arshall in todirect the lie$action for a test se6uence, and what they wanted to test was, :.ets see if we can docomuter ros so we dont hae to rig the real ros, and match characters to them% .ets see if we

can do comuter ros and ma)e them loo) realistic, and do hand$drawn animation to match it%=And 3 said, :.oo), the gimmic)s old already% 3f youre going to ma)eRoger Rabbit, drag him intothis century, you gotta do him in C#3%= !o we did him in C#3% 'he C# guys down in Florida did

both the ro tests and the C# @oger test which 3 directed in California, and the C# @oger loo)edgreat% 'om 7ancroft animated @oger by hand and they ulled and ushed the model to match hisanimation, and it just loo)ed stunning%

AV- Did they do a C#3 ;essica @abbit/

"#- No, but for all intents and uroses it loo)ed li)e ery good, highly olished cartoon animationecet you dont get the foot wobble because its a model that gets trac)ed in the same way thatdinosaurs get trac)ed in ;urassic 5ar), so when hes lanted on the des) hes lanted on the des)4

AV- No hoering/

"#- 'hats eactly right% And the lighting loo)ed great% 3t woulde wor)ed% 3t woulde been aery eensie film to ma)e, no 6uestion about it, and 3 )now the studio hesitated, that beingamongst the reasons%

AV- as that before 'oy !tory hit/

"#- After% 3t was summer of ?%

AV- !o those tests might be still lying around somewhere maybe/

"#- 0eah% 3 dont hae a decent coy of it but, yeah% 'he

whole @oger @abbit E thing just )ind of fell aart% ;im 5entecost,who was our roducer on 5ocahontas, had actually resented theidea that gae it some traction in the first lace% 7ut there wasalways this rights issue as to !ielberg and Disney and who ownswhich characters, and what was eeryones inolement going to

be, and the eensie nature of the film, and the idea of doing these6uel when it was already ten years later% 3 thin) eeryone bal)ed,and 3 can understand it% 3 can understand it artially because @oger himself was neer a articularlyaealing character% 3 dont )now that he can carry a moie without the gimmic)%

AV- 0eah, because you hae the nostalgia of all the other characters there%

"#- 0eah, 3 mean youd hae some of that anyway, but 3 dont )now if eole would come bac) tosee @oger again as a character%


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AV- !o you said the C# test turned out good, but was there any sort of story that was itched/

"#- (h yeah, thats what 3 was saying about ;im 5entecost% +e came u with a story that wasbasically @ogers rise to fame% 0ou )now, he was teamed with a human and they were both on theroad in audeille%

AV- Now 3 remember seeing @aggedy Ann and Andy when it came out% 3 was robably about eight

or something% 3 remember being ecited and watching it with my sister% !he had the @aggedy Anntoy and 3 had the @aggedy Andy toy% as it eer released on home ideo/

"#- 0eah, it was briefly on V+!% 3 dont thin) anyones done a DVD%

AV- 3 dont remember much about it% 3 remember 3 watched it% as that )ind of one of the thingsthat bro)e you in/

"#- 0eah, it was my first real big rofessional job% 3 was wor)ing on that and its a moie that hasinteresting ingredients but doesnt hold u as a moie% 'heres some indiidual interesting bits ofanimation but not really a story to hold it together% 'he best stuff is actually "mery +aw)ins:#reedy= in it% 3n rough it loo)s li)e moing garbage% 3t was really fun to watch%

AV- hen 3 was a little )id @aggedy Ann and Andy were really old een by that time, but they werestill )ind of oular, still a iable toy% Now eole just see them as a nostalgia thing, from what 3could tell%

"#- ell, 3 thin) a lot of things are that way% 3 mean its retty amaJing those things had the shelflife they did, really% 3 mean, art of it was becauseRaggedy Annwas a childrens boo) to start with,so the boo)s always )et it going% 5robably by the time the moie came out those characters wereright on the cus of nobody remembering them, and then the moie just )ind of sealed it4

AV- Now, at the Aladdin reunion they had at the #lendale library, 3 thin) 'om !ito was tal)ingabout, :0eah, we had these really great moies li)e .ittle *ermaid, 7eauty and the7east, Aladdin, .ion ing??1, and fran)ly it was only a little bit behind 'oy !tory of the same year% 7utbecause it didnt do MO22 million it was a failure4

AV- 0eah, 7rad 7ird said, when 'he 3ncredibles was about to come out, :3f this doesnt ma)e the

money Nemo made and more then eerybodys going to say its a failure,= and it did a little bit lessthan Finding Nemo%


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"#- ell, eoles yardstic)s are nuts these days% First of all you hae to )ill on the oeningwee)end or your moies dead% 3ts li)e oening a show on 7roadway now, ecet it costs M>12,ME22 million dollars% 3ts because the studios financially gain the most from the oening wee)end,and then they gain less and less as the moie continues its release, so they ut it all on the oeningwee)end% 7ut it doesnt allow for a moie to find its audience% 3ts li)e- :3s there an audience here/

No/ #oodbye%= And, you )now, its interesting, a small moie li)e Naoleon Dynamite cost under

half a million dollars to ma)e and made a hundred million at the bo office% And then the DVDsales went through the roof% Now thats a hit% As far as 3m concerned thats the way you ma)e amoie% ee costs low and you let it hang around to find its audience%

AV- 3 )new it had some real bo office legs because 3 saw it after it had been out three or fourmonths and then it )et going and then it ee)ed its way into the 'o >2, which is unusual, forsomething to wor) its way u into the 'o >2% !o, bac) to 5ocahontas% hat are the strongestmemories of wor)ing on that/

"#- 'he most moing thing about wor)ing on 5ocahontas wasactually tal)ing to the Natie American adisors that we had, and themfeeling for the most art that we were really getting it right% 3 dont

care what arious eole will say- :ell, she was only ? and he wasP%= 0ou )now, she was >E, which was of marriageable age, he wasE% 'hey hadnt seen women in three months% 3 do beliee somethinghaened, you )now% 3n any case, 3 thin) we did right by her story andher legend% And, li)e 3 said, the adisors that we had on the show forthe most art were ery moed by what we were doing because theycould see, articularly in #randmother illow, articularly in the useof the *other !irit in the leaes, that there were things that were ery

ertinent to them that we were including that wasnt just :Disnefying=stuff% 'here was a oint where some eole were in tears because theywere so hay that it had been done to that degree% And, of course, one of the main roonents was

@ussell *eans% Now, 3 do hae a funny story about @ussell% hen he came in to actually read for5owhatan, we figured, :()ay, hes going to nail us on something% ()ay, major 3ndian actiist, hesgoing to loo) at something in the scrit, hes going to fry us%= !o, he reads for us% 3ts beautiful% 3tsounds wonderful% And then he goes, :!o 3e got a 6uestion for you guys%= Hh oh, o)ay, here itcomes% +e says, :!o you guys record the oices first and then you do the drawings/= And we went,:0es, @ussell, yes4 'hats eactly what we do4= +e was great% +e was ery helful in contributingon hrases and customs and things li)e that that we included in the moie% 3 find it highlyinteresting that the ucoming New orld, 'erence *alic)s film, not only loo)s eactly li)eour 5ocahontas shot for shot but een has our same casting%

AV- @eally/

"#- 0eah, its got Christian 7ale in it% 3ts got 3rene 7edard% Not as 5ocahontas, as 5ocahontasmother% 3 mean, its unbelieable how close it is, and 3 thin) there was a lot, ersonally, of reerseracism that went on with 5ocahontas in that we would get criticiJed by certain eole who wouldsay, :ell, theres no way that 5ocahontas was imossibly beautiful,= you )now/ :3ts imossiblethat 5ocahontas loo)ed that beautiful%= hich is basically li)e saying no American 3ndian couldloo) that retty, which is bull, and, in fact, @ussell *eans daughter loo)ed eactly li)e her% 3rene7edard loo)ed eactly li)e her% And if youre going to tell me that thats imossible then, boy, areyou blin)ered%

AV- ell, its got to be frustrating for you when you see these eole just ma)e these baselessaccusations%

"#- 0ou )now, 3m certainly not going to say that we didnt change things in order to ma)e amoie% e did% No 6uestion% 3 thin) what we did was try to retain the sirit of the story, the sirit ofthe characters, and, fran)ly, redress a little balance% 3m still watching moies on A*C where all the


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3ndians are bad, they had years of those of those things, and 3 thin) it was one reason @ussell *eanswas so suortie because this wasnt that, and it was coming out from a major studio% .ets ut itthis way, if 5ocahontas did half of .ion ingIs business that is still millions and millions andmillions of eole who hae seen it and been affected by it% 'heres nothing wrong with that%

AV- 3t ma)es me thin) of a coule other things because at the Aladdin reunion @on and ;ohn weretal)ing about how they were concerned that they ortray Arabs correctly, without being too delicate

or wal)ing on eggshells or whateer%

"#- @ight, right%

AV- 7ut it was still a definite concern for them% 'hey said they ran eerything ast that one guy,@asoul/

"#- @asoul AJadani, our head of layout%

AV- And he was fine with it%

"#- 0e% And also one of my #enie animators, ;oe +aidar, also Arabic, and he was fine witheerything% 0ou )now, its the )ind of thing where the freewheeling nature of Aladdin shoulde

been enough for eole not to worry too much about how a articular grou was resented, while 3will say that the animation medium itself is rone to caricature, and sometimes that cannot beentirely aoided if youre ma)ing a ery cartoony moie% 3 do not hold truc) with any of the stuffthat came out where they say, :ell, all the good guys are white and all the bad guys are Arabs%='hats ridiculous% Fine, Aladdin and ;asmine sound li)e mall rats, ;afar sounds li)e hes 7ritish, and3agos from 7roo)lyn% !o gie me a brea)4

AV- 'hey mied things u in 'he .ion ing li)e that too%

"#- 3ts the )ind of thing where that just holds no water, none% 3 always loo)ed at Aladdin li)e ananimation ersion of A Funny 'hing +aened on the ay to the Forum% !lightly oliticallyincorrect but a lot of fun, and just a huge burles6ue%

AV- Now 3 hae a friend whos art$!amoan and art$+awaiian and 3 )new him for robably ten,fifteen years before 3 found out what his ethnicity was because he would neer say, and he )ind ofwanted to not tal) about it, but when .ilo & !titch came out, hes all, :Come on, we hae to go seethis, the +awaiian art of me is genetically comelliing me to go see this moie%= !o we went andsaw it and he said, :'hat ortrayed +awaiians the most accurately of any moie 3e eer seen%='hen later on, on some message board somebody, a non$+awaiian erson, was saying, :(h, thatmoie ortrayed +awaiians so stereotyed and this and that


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)now, and 3 absolutely accet that% At the end of the day you ma)e your choices and some of themare indiidual choices and most of them are collaboratie choices that we all arrie at together, inorder to go forward ma)ing a moie, and there are many things that 3m still roud of% @asoulAJadani was our head of layout on that one too and 3 actually thin) those are the most stunninglayouts hes eer done in his career% 'heyre beautiful% *i)e #iaimos art direction was stunning%

AV- as it suosed to hae a little bit of a *ary 7lair influence to it/

"#- 3t was a little more "yind "arle$ish, lets ut it that way% 3 )now *i)e #iaimo and *i)e#abriel and 3 were influenced by "yind "arle and art of it was wanting to resent the new worldas so beautiful and ristine that it would be a shame if something haened to it% And what @asouldoes is gies things scale thats unbelieable, 3e neer seen anybody get scale into layouts theway that he can and so the enironment is as much a character in that moie as anybody else is

because youre really tal)ing about it and showing it in a sectacular way% 3s it heightened/ !ure% (fcourse its heightened% "erythings heightened in a moie%

AV- 'hats your oortunity to bring out the art of real life%

"#- 0eah% 0ou )now, if youre not ma)ing artistic choices then just ut some film in a camera and

shoot% And of course eole ma)e artistic choices when theyre shooting lie$action as well, so 3mean its )ind of a non$argument as far as 3m concerned% 3f youre styliJing the land to say how

beautiful it is in order to oint out how bad it is if it gets wrec)ed then youre ma)ing an artisticchoice to ma)e a story oint% hats wrong with that/ 0oure using the isuals to hel tell thatstory%

AV- Now the wholeIf I e!er Kne" #ouscene was already done and in the can retty much, but thererise was comleted recently for the DVD/

"#- 0es, the rerise we neer animated in the original ersion%If I e!er Kne" #ouwas comletelyanimatedL all it needed was cleanu and color and that was all ready to go, but the rerise, whichhad been written and recorded, we decided not to ut in the final moie at that time, but it is now

ut in and 3 li)e them both, you )now/ 3ts the )ind of thing where 3 actually )now many eolewho felt it was really the heart of the moie, as far as 5ocahontas and ;ohn !miths relationshi%hen it got cut after the reiew, they felt there was a hole there and 3 could certainly see that% Atthe time, its ery difficult to )now how to resond to test audiences% 3n hindsight, 3 would say thatthe test audience was the wrong test audience, and we acted Q ossibly oerreacted Q because the

eole who were not resonding to it were eole who would not be caught dead in a Disney moiein the first lace anyway% !o it )ind of falsifies what your reactions should be, based on that )ind ofan audience, and it ma)es me unhay that we were influenced in that way by a system that is noteactly flawless%

AV- 3 wonder if you could just get eole that you )now are interested in Disney moies%

"#- ell, yeah, but they dont want to do that% 'hey want acomletely objectie audience to wal) in there cold, but when eolego to see a moie they urchase a tic)et to a articular moie becausethey want to see it for some reason% 'hey dont just wal) in cold andsay :!urrise me%= 'heyre shelling out ten dollars% !o, why shouldntthat )ind of logic aly to test audiences as well/ 3t seems a little madnot to%

AV- ;oe #rant came u with a lot of good gagsL a lot of the animalthings/

"#- @ight% ;oe was our animal guy% Actually ;oe was our eerything

guy, because ;oe came u with the leaes as 5ocahontas mother%

AV- +e came u with the leaes/ 7ecause 3 thought he o)ed fun at that later on%


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"#- (h, he does% ;oe was always wry%

AV- !o he was o)ing fun at himself%

"#- ell, yeah% !omebody as)ed him what he thought and he said, :'oo much colored wind%= Andits the )ind of thing where he would o)e fun at himself but he was actually ery roud of hiscontributions on 5ocahontas, all the *ee)o stuff where they get stuc) in the log together and dance

bac) and forth, thats ;oe% 'here were just lots of early drawings of 5ercy, being a ery foish ug,and some ery stunning isuals li)e the shadows cast of the 7ritish and the 3ndians on the cloudscoming together for saages, that was ;oe, and its the )ind of thing where 3 thin) a lot of eole

just thin) of him as, :(h, hes old Disney charm%= ell, he is, but he came u with a lot of greatother stuff too that was ery, ery strong% And 3 thin) what a lot of eole dont understand aboutthe way ;oe wor)ed was that ;oe wasnt the )ind of guy who would wal) into a room and

ontificate about what youre doing%

AV- 0ou said he was always sliing notes under eoles doors%

"#- 0eah, he was a reerse ac) rat% +e would just leae things under thedoor and scuttle away and yet, by doing that he was this nuclear generator

of ideas% 3t was unbelieable how rolific he was in that way and howmuch of ;oe eentually did get in the moie% And, of course, he was notone to hide his oinions% !o he would say, :3n the blan)$blan)$blan)here= if he felt ery strongly about it%

AV- as he retty in tune with how the whole thing was falling in laceand coming together/

"#- Very much% 7ut its the )ind of thing where he felt 6uite a )inshiwith *i)e #abriel% +e really was wor)ing ery closely with him forabout a year een before 3 got on% 3 thin) actually of all the moies heswor)ed on in the ast seeral years at Disney, 5ocahontas is the one he robably had the biggest

stam on% And hes had good contributions on all of them, but 3 thin) that one was robably themost ersonal for whateer reason, and it may hae just been the relationshi with him and *i)eand the fact that *i)e so alued ;oes oinion and his artistry%

AV- !o *i)e was on 5ocahontas first/

"#- 0eah, 3 was the second shotgun director% 'he film was *i)es idea% +e had resented it and 3had neer seen anybody say yes to a moie so 6uic)ly in my life% hat had haened was heactually had )ind of a rough title card that loo)ed li)e 5rincess 'igerlily and it said, :altDisneys 5ocahontas= and he holds it u and he says, :'he story of a Natie American rincess whohas to choose between her loe of a 7ritish sailor and the needs of her own eole,= and *ichael"isner goes, :0es, lets ma)e it%= And its li)e, :+oley moley%= And it turns out that "isner had

actually been searching for some form of a @omeo and ;uliet story to do in animation and when*i)e resented 5ocahontas there it was% +e just thought, :'hats the one%= !o it got an immediategreen light%

AV- 0ou were saying with all the notes youd get from ;oe you would ma)e a :;oe drawer=%

"#- 0e, absolutely% And youd oen u the :;oe drawer= once in a while and youd ull out one ofthe drawings and youd go, :0eah, that one% e need that right there%= 'he other thing too is thatthere were a lot of things that ;oe would come u with that werent eer used in the moie but hecreated an atmoshere of creatie fertility by doing that, if you )now what 3 mean% 5lus, just by)eeing these ideas generating it was ery remar)able%

AV- ere they always drawn or was it sometimes just words/"#- For the most art it was drawings, een if its just a little doodle, but drawings%


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AV- ell, we got on to this toic and 3 hae with me this big long list of 6uestions to as)%!omebody else wants to as), :hen wor)ing on 5ocahontas, were you insired by theabandonedHia"atharoject artwor)/=

"#- 3 was% .ess me than *i)e and *i)e Q *i)e #abriel and *i)e #iaimo% 3t did hae an influence%Dic) elseys artwor) in articular was a big influence, and you can see certain ieces that wereinfluential on, say, the way the Sa!agesnumber was staged and eecuted% 'hat certainly had the

Dic) elsey influence from +iawatha% 3ts the )ind of thing where by the time 3 got on the roject itwas more about story, story, story and *i)e and *i)e were already heading down a certain road inart direction% (f course 3 had a say, but 3 had a huge amount of trust and faith in *i)e #iaimo% 3remember sitting in dailies, and the first color comes u on Sa!ages% And 5owhatan is urle, andhes against this bright yellow fire% And 3m going, :()ay, 3 )now youre going to ma)e it wor)4=

AV- 'hats funny% 'he #enie was the first thing you actually did for Disney, right/

"#- 0es, thats right%

AV- And then you went right into directing for Disney after that% as that )ind of 6uic)/

"#- 3ts the )ind of thing where 3 li)e doing both% 3 loe animating% 3 loe directing% 'he studio

)new 3 wanted to do both% At the time 3 thin) all the lead eole had already been gien oeron .ion ing so they felt, :Do you want to co$direct with *i)e on 5ocahontas/= And so they

itched me the moie%

AV- as there eer a ossibility you might wor) on .ion ing/

"#- 'here robably was, but so much had already been done and decided on .ion ing that 3m notsure they were eer really considering me in that in that ein% 'hey wanted a co$director with *i)eand 3 thin) the difficulty for me was that5ocahontas turned out to be a much more serious moiethan 3 had originally anticiated%

AV- 3t was suosed to be more layful/

"#- 0eah, in the earlier ersions%

AV- himsical, maybe/

"#- ell, whimsical and satirical to a certain etent% 3 always felt that you could tal) aboutrejudice in a ery satirical way and be just as effectie% And we went down that road for 6uitesome time until it was ery clear that ;effrey 8atJenberg9 really wanted a ery, ery, eryseriously$told story, and, in fact we )ind of had to go through a no jo)es ass until he was satisfiedenough with the way the story was going% 'hen we )ind of had to wedge comedy bric)s bac) intoan already built dramatic house, with the animals%

AV- 0eah, most of the comedy just comes from the animals retty much%

"#- 0es, and thats why% And my feeling is that, sadly, you could ta)e the animals out of that moieand still hae the same moie, you )now/ 'he animals are a good mirror to what the humans aredoing but essentially they are not art of the lot, not really, which 3 find a shame% 7ut its the roadwe were forced to go down in order to tell the story ery seriously% 0ou )now, it was morewhimsical, it was more satirical, it was lighter in tone when 3 got on to it% 5eter !chneider said,:ell, its going to be more li)e 7eauty and the 7east than Aladdin%= And 3 thought, :ell, o)ay, 3can accet that%=

AV- And then it ended u een more serious than 7eauty and the 7east%

"#- "actly, thats the thing% 3t turned into something far more serious% 7ut at the end of the day, ithad its challenges, and one of the things that 3 miss is that we had oice actors cast for the animals%'he decision to ma)e them antomime was a tough one for me in articular, but 3 thin) a lot of

eole feel it was the right decision for the tone of the moie, and 3 agree you couldnt hae hadtal)ing animals, not for the tone of the moie that we currently hae%


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AV- ere you lanning on haing dialogue or just ma)ing animal noises/

"#- Dialogue% 3n fact, 3d gone to "ngland to do some oice recording with eole 3 wanted to cast%3 wanted to hae !tehen Fry as 5ercy and 3 wanted to hae +ugh .aurie as iggins and we hadother eole come inL we had @obbie Coltrane come in and do @atcliffe and he was hilarious% 'heyfinally let me hae 7illy Connolly%

AV- @obbie Coltrane, hes the guy who lays +agrid/"#- 'hats right, in +arry 5otter% All these guys were oular comics in "ngland% 3 had Chris 7arriecome in, who eole might )now as Arnold @immer in @ed Dwarf, and he also had been doing allthe uet oices for !itting 3mage in .ondon at the time% Very, ery good with oices, he did a)iller @eagan and he did some @atcliffe reading and that was ery funny% 7ut it was decided theydidnt really want to fly to "ngland to record oices, because they had already )ind of shot that wadon .ion ing with ;eremy 3rons and so they wanted to contain the eense a little bit moreon 5ocahontas, so we had to settle for eole who were here% And 3 shouldnt say :settle= becauseDaid (gden !tiers did a fine job% 3n fact, when he first ut his @atcliffe stuff down, the engineerwho was recording him was 7ritish, and 3 as)ed the engineer, :!o how do you thin) he sounds/ Doyou thin) he sounds 7ritish/= And the guy went, in a Coc)ney accent, :hat/ 0ou mean he isnt/=!o that was great and he certainly had the 7ritish guy absolutely coninced4

AV- (utside of the animation fandom and eole that go toall the A!3FA eents, what does the general ublic most)now you for/

"#- 5robably the #enie% 3 mean 3e done a lot of otherthings, but the #enie is robably my signature% (f myDisney wor) 3 am robably the most roud of the #enieand our two Fantasia se6uences, and 3 say :our= because 3include !usan in that% !usan did a stunning job on artdirection and, fran)ly, we both wor)ed together in terms ofstory content too%

AV- Another 6uestion somebody wanted me to as) was if your husbandKwife relationshi heledcreate some sort of synergy on those$antasia%&'''se6uences%

"#- Absolutely% Absolutely, and its the )ind of thing where the good thing about wor)ing with!usan is she )nows what 3 can do and 3 )now what she can do, and we both bat around content allthe time, either on our own rojects or rojects were wor)ing on for other studios% !hes actuallygot a ery, ery good story sense as well% A coule times when 3 was in a rut on @hasody, li)e,:()ay, ;oes got to ice s)ate here% hat do 3 hae him do/= !he said, :+ae him ma)e a dollarsign%= 7ecause he needs the cash, you )now, and there were other contributions li)e that as well that

!usan came u with that were great%AV- 3 )now she did the water color stuff on Carnial (f 'he Animals,right/ 3 wasnt really clear what she did on @hasody in 7lue%

"#- !he art directed the entire thing% !he art directed both, you )now,those are her color alettes% 3 dont thin) eole understand how imortantcolor is in ma)ing these films successful% 3 could thin) of many cases inrecent animation where the color choices were ery oor and you cant justsay, :ell, its color that made it do bad at the bo office,= but it certainly is an ingredient and animortant one in eoles emotional resonse to the material, you )now/ And 3m a ery edestrianguy with color< the s)y is blue, the tree is brown, the grass is green, and !usan is not, and thats

whats great% 3t is ery, ery surrising what she comes u with and it always loo)s great andharmonious together% 3 always li)e eole who use color for emotional alue rather than for realisticcontent% 3 find that far more interesting and there really isnt much of that eerimentation that goes


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on in animation these days, fran)ly, esecially with C#3 where eole want things to be rettyrealistic$loo)ing% 'hey want to see eery blade of grass%

AV- 0our own Al +irshfeld influences are clear in your character designs% +ow did the #enie comeabout, and what was his reaction to you drawing in his style/

"#- +irschfeld didnt )now about it% +alfway through the film we

were in New 0or) to do a ress rollout% !o 3 honed him uLbeliee it or not he was in the hone boo)4 3 honed him u and 3say, :+i, you dont )now me but my names "ric #oldberg and 3mwor)ing on a Disney feature right now called Aladdin and weredoing a resentation here about ma)ing it% 3 would loe for you tocome down because we ac)nowledge how influential your wor)was on the film and we really want you to )now just how highlywe regard your wor) and how its really heled us%= And he said,8does a +irschfeld imression9 :ell, 3d loe to come down but,you )now, 3 got this deadline for 'he New 0or) 'imesL 3 gotta dothree drawings by *onday and so another time maybe%= And 3

hang u the hone and 3 thin), :'he guys and he still hasdeadlines4=

AV- ere you nerous to call him/

"#- (h #od, yes, absolutely% 3ll get to my real nerousness now though% !o, flash forward to acharity wor)$in$rogress screening of Aladdin at 'he *useum of *odern Art% e were all initedto come to New 0or) for that and 3m standing at the entrance with !usan and my brother "lliotwho came u from New ;ersey, and 5eter !chneider, who was resident of Feature Animation,wal)s ast us and goes, :(h, by the way, youre Al and Dolly +irschfelds minders tonight%= 'hatswhen the alms started sweating% !o we see them arrie, they ull u in the limo, and we introduceourseles% 3nside 3m li)e, :(h my #od4= And hes sitting net to us and the whole time 3m

sweating bullets cause what if he hates it/ hat if he hates it/ hat if he wants to sue me/ hatif??OS as art of continuingFantasia% 3 as)ed him to design all the characters init% A wee) or so later, he wrote a ery gracious letter bac) that basically said, :3f 3 was fifty yearsyounger 3d jum at the chance but 3m afraid 3m going to hae to say no,= and 3 felt disaointed

but we didnt gie u%

AV- +e was in his eighties then/

"#- ell, he was in his nineties% And 3 continued to corresond with him and isit him and weeentually got him to agree to adat any of his eisting wor), in other words, he would trust us,!usan and me, to adat any of his re$eisting wor) if @hasody eer got made% !o, eery time we
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/news/newsletters/2001/summer/images/hirschfeld.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/news/newsletters/2001/summer/hirschfeld.html&h=246&w=193&sz=17&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=Y16KhgfzTX6gVM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAl%2BHirschfeld%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DHPIC,HPIC:2005-35,HPIC:en%26sa%3DN


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would see him then in New 0or) subse6uently hed go, :!o, whats the news on @hasody/= Andso, for seen years, until finally they said yes it was always the toic of conersation%

AV- !o the whole idea for @hasody in 7lue had been ercolating for a while/

"#- A long time, a long time, and it wasnt really until ingdom of the !un went down forretooling and came bac) as"merors New #rooe that the studio finally allowed us to ma)e it,

because then they had an animation crew with nothing to do, so all of a sudden there was this greatoening of talent and they said, :()ay, now you can ma)e it%= !o we did%

AV- 3 thin) one time 3 saw you with a bag that said Fantasia Continued% 'hats what it was going tobe called, right/

"#- 0eah, it was going to be called a lot of things% 'hat was one of them% 3t was going to becalled Fantasia >??? as well% 3 said, :;ust dro the other shoe and call it FantasiaKE222%=

AV- #ies you an etra year 3 guess4 Now, when eerybody tal)ed about the #enie and the $riendLike (ese6uence, to me its almost )ind of li)e what animation had been waiting to build u to,you )now/ 7ecause its so animated and bombastic% ere you trying to ma)e it reach out and grab

eole/ (r were you just li)e, :ell, we need to hae a song about how he can hel Aladdin%=/

"#- 0ou )now, heres the funny thing- 3ts the )ind of animation 3 loe doing and had been doingon my own in "ngland for the longest time% hen 3 got to Disneys eerybody )et saying, :(h, itsgreat to see that broad stuff again%= And its li)e, :ell, it isnt broad to me% 'his is what 3e beendoing for the ast seeral years%= 7ut its the )ind of thing where absolutely it was a showiece for@obin 8illiams9 and it was a showiece for the song and it was a showiece for animation% +ereyou hae a character that can transform himself into anything and you hae a song that tells youabout it%

AV- And he can wal) out of his own mouth%

"#- 0eah% hat better oortunity to just go comletely haywire with it/ And a lot of credit has to

go to "d #ombert, who was head of story% +e actually had the initial ass on $riend Like (e, eenbefore @obin had signed, and a lot of the ideas li)e dancing with his hands and stuff li)e that camefrom "d% +e had the face$li)e hands in his early storyboards% !o 3 thin) een though eoleconsider that my signature, 3 hae to gie a big ti of the hat to "d on that stuff too% 'he thing aboutrecording it< its a slightly bittersweet story because +oward Ashman had just assed away and ofcourse Alan *en)en was feeling ery, ery sensitie about +oward and his contribution to themoie as well as his contributions to all the other Disney moies% 0ou see, when +oward and Alanoriginally conceied the song they conceied it as )ind of a barrelhouse, Cab CallowayKFats allernumber and they really wanted it sung li)e that and layed li)e that% ;ohn and @on and 3 wanted@obin to go nuts in the booth% !o Alan had @obin record what @obin called :the torture trac)=which was basically note$for$note correctly sung and then once it was down and Alan was satisfied

we got @obin aside and said, :()ay, youre #roucho here, youre a Fairy #odmother here, yourethis here


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"#- 0eah, and its li)e denying what the guy is great at% !o 3 actually always felt 6uite a duty whenwe were doing Aladdin that 3 gie the audience a really good @obin illiams erformance% 'heyhad to wal) out of there and laugh as much as they would at @obin illiams lie and that was eryimortant to me% 3 felt li)e it woulde been a highly disaointing thing for them to go to a Disneymoie and not feel entertained in that way%

AV- "secially when you hae @obin illiams being unleashed by the animation medium% Now,

when they had that DVD remiere last year at the "l Caitan and they had the screening of it< 3always li)e to see moies that hae been out for a long time to see the audiences reaction, and 3mthin)ing, :"ery house in America has the ideotae of this so they )now what its all about,= and itgets to that se6uence and it just brings down the house% "erybodys seen it many times before butit just moed eerybody%

"#- *y faorite Disney animators were Freddy *oore and ard imball and its robably nosurrise% 3n articular ard imball for his eerimentation and his attemt at being a studiomaeric)% +e would basically throw anything in that he thought would fly% And 3 thought, :ell,this is the )ind of stuff that follows those lines%=

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Eric Goldberg Interview 02

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