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14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56301)by deepbluehum » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:57 am

Isn't every Mahayana practitioner a wannabe guru?

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56303)by username » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:05 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:A bunch of wanna be gurus trying to impose peace upon one another by hittingeach other over the head. Funny.

alwayson wrote:

Namdrol wrote:I did. It is pretty straight forward. To put it another way, when a personceases to reify phenomena in terms of the four extremes, that is thedirect perception of emptiness. Until that point, their "emptiness"remains an intellectual sequence of negations; accurate perhaps, butconceptual nevertheless.

The "recognition" of rigpa, which is simply the knowledge (rig pa) aboutone's state as a working basis for practice, does not require realizationof emptiness as a prerequiste, and can't ‐‐ since if it did, no one couldpractice Dzogchen. '

In terms of the four visions, for as long as one continues to reifyphenomena, for that long, one will never reach the third vision. This isthe principal reason in modern Dzogchen practice, emphasis is placed onthe basis through tregchö, rather the path, tögal. If you are a first stagebodhisattva and so on, then the four visions in Dzogchen will be very,very rapid. However, there is no gaurantee that one will realizeemptiness merely through practicing tregchö. Of this reason then,practices such as tummo, etc. are also recommended.

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He is differentiating between recognition and realization too, so two sets of scales, andsaying there are stages from initial recognition all the way to the fourth vision. Actually weare told the biggest obstacle to both is the didactic dry prison of concepts, to which some aremore prone than others and can never break free from. It's not too difficult even if somemight mention it by accident or even write books on it and not get the point of what has beentold to them for many years and merely repeat texts on achieving it merely conceptually.Some are just more prsioners of mechanical thinking than others and can not see beyond it.That is why relaxing is recommended before even trekcho, but then again some have moreanxst than others and all are not the same. We are told not everyone is going to get it in thislife and are accumulating the two for future lifetimes or might take many years if notdecades for realization but also Gurus like Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his son TsoknyiRinpoche insist it is easier than most think. So looks like different circumstances for differentpeople.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56306)by alwayson » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:18 am

I will tell you why I don't get this.

You are defining emptiness as something specifically beyond the mind.

But you say the same thing for rigpa.

N

Namdrol wrote:I did. It is pretty straight forward. To put it another way, when a person ceasesto reify phenomena in terms of the four extremes, that is the direct perceptionof emptiness. Until that point, their "emptiness" remains an intellectualsequence of negations; accurate perhaps, but conceptual nevertheless.

The "recognition" of rigpa, which is simply the knowledge (rig pa) about one'sstate as a working basis for practice, does not require realization of emptinessas a prerequiste, and can't ‐‐ since if it did, no one could practice Dzogchen. '

In terms of the four visions, for as long as one continues to reify phenomena,for that long, one will never reach the third vision. This is the principal reasonin modern Dzogchen practice, emphasis is placed on the basis through tregchö,rather the path, tögal. If you are a first stage bodhisattva and so on, then thefour visions in Dzogchen will be very, very rapid. However, there is no







IF HERE YOU ARE SAYING:

A. that emptiness is defined as being free from the reifying mind

B. rigpa is knowledge of one's primordial state, which is obviously beyond the mind being"primordial" as it were.

then

C. Then how the *censored* can you have vidya/knowledge without first realizing emptiness?

That makes no logical sense

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56309)by username » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:13 am

Reifying and summing up both emptiness and Rigpa (!) in a few words as concepts is likesaying: this sentence is a lie! Specially if saying it is beyond concepts/reifying! These are justpointers as the actual fruits are more difficult. Thirdly how something is experienced neednot mean knowing what it is in detail and how it functions. Just like a driver might not knowhow an engine works. Only a fully enlightened Buddha has complete omniscience. Fourth,emptiness applies to persons and phenomena BOTH as does the ultimate knowledge/rigpawhere it ultimately dissolves both too. So neither should be limited to one. Fifth, if someonerealized one of the two partly on the stages before full enlightenment, it does not mean hewill get the other fully, otherwise Nagarjuna would have revealed Garab Dorje's message.However as Longchenpa showed they are in perfect harmony.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56372)by deepbluehum » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:52 pm

gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely through practicing tregchö. Ofthis reason then, practices such as tummo, etc. are also recommended.

N












Rigpa is really just a translation for vidya. Vidya just means knowing in direct perception. Themind and phenomena are empty Madhyamaka establishes that through inference. So this kindof knowing is not vidya. Vidya is recognizing that emptiness with an intuitive inner sightcaused by following the instructions of the guru.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56382)by alwayson » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:46 pm

of course rigpa is just tibetan for vidya/knowledge.

even wikipedia says that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa)



I've never seen someone cite to Wikipedia so much for dharma. Who writes that stuff?


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56388)by Pero » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:07 pm

alwayson wrote:of course rigpa is just tibetan for vidya/knowledge.



deepbluehum wrote:








http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa













Some if not all of it probably himself.



Lol



Wikipedia always pops up first or second into Google

Take it up with Google

Obviously Google and Wikipedia made some sort of deal.

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I've never seen someone cite to Wikipedia so much for dharma. Who writes thatstuff?

Pero wrote:

Some if not all of it probably himself.

deepbluehum wrote:

I've never seen someone cite to Wikipedia so much for dharma. Whowrites that stuff?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa)













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Did you ever read Brad Warner's Buddhist books?

He just cites Wikipedia for everything


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56401)by Pero » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:43 pm

Haha true, but I find it useful sometimes.

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Ok NOW I am starting to get this.

Based on this comment, realizing emptiness is some special tantric gnosis having to do with

alwayson wrote:Wikipedia always pops up first or second into Google

Take it up with Google

Obviously Google and Wikipedia made some sort of deal.

Namdrol wrote:However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely throughpracticing tregchö. Of this reason then, practices such as tummo, etc. are alsorecommended. N
















the center channel / avadhuti.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56415)by Malcolm » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:08 pm

That depends on the practitioner.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56418)by Sönam » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:16 pm

alwayson wrote:


Based on this comment, realizing emptiness is some special tantric gnosis havingto do with the center channel / avadhuti.

Namdrol wrote:However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merelythrough practicing tregchö. Of this reason then, practices such astummo, etc. are also recommended. N

alwayson wrote:














in one sense or the other ... or you practice thee channels and so on, or the channels takesplace by them self.

Sönam


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56423)by Virgo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:52 pm

Have you ever seen Ice Road Truckers on History? That is my favorite show. Those guys andladies drive the ice roads on the Dalton Highway in Alaska, from Fairbanks up to Prudhoe Bay,where the oil fields are, in Big rigs and deliver huge loads (oversize, etc). The road isdangerous, covered in ice, and there is no shoulder. There are hardly any passenger cars.These guys are alone. Towns can be spread out probably 100 miles apart in some cases. Itreaches temperatures of 60 below 0 Fahrenheit. When the truck breaks down, those guyshave to fix it (in those freezing temperatures) by themselves. In many cases, if they can't, andif no one happens to come by, they could actually freeze, hypothermia setting in. There is nocell phone reception up there, and the trucks CB radios only go for so many miles. There aremany avalanches just about every year. Many people have died. You make 100 grand just tostart, for a three month season.

Buddhism is like driving a car to a destination. You drive from point A (wherever we are atnow) to point B (Enlightenment). When your car breaks down or you come into treacherousconditions it becomes very hard, you might even turn back. When those Ice Road Truckers areout on the roads by themselves, they have to fix the truck themselves. On the road toBuddhahood, if the car breaks down, ie. the mind runs into major blocks it is good to be ableto fix it. How do you fix it? Being part driver, part mechanic. The mind rides on the winds inthe body, and the winds ride through chanells. Work with the winds, you work with the mind,and cause it do certain things. That is the high speed way to reach your destination, andknow that you can bypass or fix any problems you encounter. We get to the other side, warmand cozy. We don't freeze to death trying to help sentient beings.

Malcolm has the typical Rural/Semi‐Rural Amercan attitude: learn how to fix anything, driveanything, etc. Except he met the profound path. They mesh very well, perfectly in fact.

alwayson wrote:










Kevin



So basically you do realize emptiness with the famous Clear Light / Lumosity????

I'm not saying that is the only way, since you also have the fourth consecration.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56475)by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:28 am

Good point.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56478)by deepbluehum » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:43 am

Namdrol wrote:

That depends on the practitioner.

deepbluehum wrote:


Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:A bunch of wanna be gurus trying to impose peace upon one another byhitting each other over the head. Funny.

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:















Really? Wow. Thank you so much.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56502)by Virgo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:44 am

Recognizing Rigpa bypasses things such as recognizing emptiness, which by it's nature must bea recognition of mind. That is what one learns from the Sample Wisdom. Coordinating onesbody, speech, and mind with this fact, is the activity. Dzogchen is beyond any other Buddhistpractice, for this very reason. People should get into it, based on that reason alone. TheDzogchenpas are like the master electricians, master plumbers, and so on, that know tricksthe regular electritions can only dream of. We aren't transforming anything here. We aredealing with purity, the basis.

Kevin

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Good point.

deepbluehum wrote:


Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:A bunch of wanna be gurus trying to impose peace uponone another by hitting each other over the head. Funny.







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