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An Interviewwith

Cathy Fisherby Mark Huberman

In the Winter 2013 issue of Health Science, I wrote a columnentitled “Eating Hygienically Has Never Been Easier — orBetter.” In that piece, I introduced our readers to the greatwork being done by Cathy Fisher who publishes and blogsrecipes at www.StraightUpFood.com and who teaches cookingclasses at Dr. Alan Goldhamer’s TrueNorth Health. In myview, no one in the history of our health movement has createdmeals that are as healthy, simple and pleasureful as those ofCathy Fisher. I am thrilled that Cathy has become a featuredcolumnist in this magazine and will be a regular contributorto the NHA’s new website. I am also thrilled to share with you the “story behind the story” of Cathy’s blog and the great philosophy and nutritional integrity she brings to hercreations. Her meals have become staples in the Hubermanhousehold, and I urge you to make the same in yours.

You call your recipe blog “Straight Up Food.” Tell me how youstarted thinking straight about food and nutrition.I grew up with an intolerance to dairy foods, which causedme painful stomachaches. And so in my twenties, I decidedto look into what I could do to remedy this.

How did you know it was dairy foods?Because when I would eat enough dairy foods, the painwould show up about 30 minutes later. After mentioningthis to a coworker, she suggested that I pick up a book byDr. John McDougall. He was really the first person to showme that there were different ways to eat and offer alter-natives to dairy foods.

Did you go see him or were you just inspired by the message?I was inspired by the message. I love reading, so I kind of

ran with it. Dr. McDougall also had a radio show that Iwould often listen to. His message was uncomplicated, itmade sense to me, and I felt that I could trust him. I couldtell he really cared about people. After having dabbled ina vegan diet for a while, in 1999 at age 32, I dove in fully.

At what point did you start working with him?In 2006 I was in a career transition and thought I’d dip mytoes into the nutrition world, as it had always interestedme; especially since figuring out my own health issues withdairy. I emailed him, knowing that his offices were closeto where I lived, and asked if he could use any help withhis programs. It just so happened that they were lookingto expand their staff, so I started working part-time, doingadministrative tasks and helping out with their 10-DayPrograms.

Interview continues on next page.

Photo by Ken Rubin

And the rest they say is history?Yes. I’ve been working there almost eight years now, andI just love it. I still work part-time, which allows me timeto work on my blog; and three years ago I also startedteaching cooking classes at the program. Out of everythingI do, teaching is my favorite.

How did you make contact with Dr. Alan Goldhamer of TrueNorth Health?I had been working with Dr. McDougall for a few yearswhen my friend, John, who also works at TrueNorth,introduced me to Dr. Goldhamer. Timing is everything Iguess. They were looking for a new cooking teacher. Afterwe met and I sent him some of my photos and recipes, heinvited me to teach weekly. I was a little scared because Iwasn’t used to talking in front of people, but I’ve come along way. Now I have no problem talking to large groupsof people who are interested in cooking and health. I justspoke at an event called Healthy Taste of Ventura, in Cali-fornia, to an audience of over 200 people, and was on cloudnine! Maybe an odd evolution for an introvert, but once Idiscovered what I loved to do, I wanted to share it.

Is your cooking class one of the complimentary benefitspeople receive when staying at TrueNorth?Yes. Every day at the center there are two events offered;usually a lecture by one of the doctors or other practitioners,a cooking class, or a film related to health, nutrition orfasting. Patients are constantly being educated in an effortto support them while they’re at the center as well as whenthey return home.

Other than Dr. Goldhamer, are there any other doctors atTrueNorth who dazzle you?I’m dazzled by them all! I’ve personally consulted withDrs. Klaper, Sultana and Isabeau and found them all to beextremely caring, patient, and helpful. The TrueNorth stafffeels like an extended family to me. Everyone who worksthere dazzles me. They are there because they want to be,and they enjoy working in a positive environment wherepatients actually get well. The patients also dazzle me. Theyoften arrive scared of what to expect and end up makingchanges they never believed possible. I am constantly inawe of the efforts made by the staff and the patients. Formany of the patients who come to TrueNorth, they say theyhave tried everything else to cure themselves, and so they

are very motivated to do what it takes tochange their lifestyle. If only the TrueNorthapproach was the first one people tried.

Cooking healthfully really isn’t thatcomplicated, is it?Transitioning to a new diet can be intimi-dating for newcomers — after all, most of ushave been eating the same diet since we werekids. But the cooking part is not complicated.The cooking and preparation are very similarto what people are used to; it’s mainly theingredients that change. We leave out thehealth-offenders (animal foods, salt, oil,sugar, refined foods) and include lots ofhealth-promoters (vegetables, greens, fruits,beans, etc.). People are often surprised byhow easy my recipes are. The two commentsI get most often are: “I didn’t know healthyfood could taste this good; my family willeat this!” and “This isn’t hard; I can do thiswhen I get home.” When we can get great-tasting, health-promoting food into people’smouths, they soon make the connection; they

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Cathy prepares waffles during a cooking class atTrueNorth Health Center.

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see that they don’t have to eat bland food in order to feeland look their best. They begin to understand that eatinga whole-foods, plant-based diet is not only possible on adaily basis, but can be very enjoyable.

One of the wonderful things my wife and I have alwaysdiscovered with your recipes is flexibility. Is that by design? Yes. For example, if I have a recipe that has nuts in it, I letpeople know that they can leave the nuts out if they likeand that the recipe will still work. A few ground nuts (usinga rotary cheese grater) on top of a green salad or stew canadd a little richness to a meal without going overboard. I often use nuts as a condiment that can easily be omittedin many of my recipes. I encourage people to make myrecipes their own. I suggest that the first time they makethe recipe, make it as written and then note any adjust-ments that appeal to them for next time. It’s your food; Ijust get you off and running. If you don’t like chili powder,for example, leave it out. If you don’t like cilantro, use basilor parsley. I find that just giving people permission to getinvolved this way can make a big difference in how muchthey enjoy cooking. Far too often people are rigid withrecipes and are scared to adapt them. Cooking is a verycreative experience for many of us, and I want it to be apositive activity, so I encourage my students to play andexperiment.

On your website blog you describe yourself as “a chef and ateacher whose passion is creating recipes without animalfoods, salt, oil or sugar and very few processed foods.” Let’sbreak that down. Are you a trained chef or a teacher, and ifnot, how did you gain your culinary talents?I am a trained chef; I trained myself. I largely did this byimmersing myself in the McDougall and TrueNorth philos-ophies and constantly reading and trying new things. I didmy time in college, earning a BA in psychology and lateran early childhood teaching credential. But I realized thatthere are many things in life you can learn on your own,by reading, connecting with others in your field, practicing,and just getting out there and doing it, which is what I did.My kitchen became my lab. I’m always learning newthings, especially from my students and blog followerswhose questions and suggestions motivate and teach meon a daily basis.

Why do you say you have a “passion for creating recipeswithout animal foods?” As Rip Esselstyn would say,“What isyour beef with meat?”I’ve always loved animals, and after reading the McDougalland TrueNorth books and learning that I didn’t have to eatanimals as part of a nutritionally balanced diet, that reso-nated with my compassionate self. I grew up on a little

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Cathy teaching a cooking class for a 2011 McDougall Program.

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farm and animals were my best friends, so I didn’t have aproblem no longer eating them. For animal lovers, this isoften the only reason needed, but there are so many reasonsto choose from; just pick one or more values that resonatewith you — compassion for animals; personal overall healthand vitality; or concern for the environment — and let itbe the foundation that keeps you moving forward on yourpath.

One of the things that Dr. Goldhamer has popularized is theconcept of “Vegan SOS-free”— meaning preparing mealsthat are plant-based without added salt, oil or sugar. Yourrecipes all follow that model, and the question arises: howare you able to make your meals taste so good without theseitems? Do you have certain favorite substitutes?I think less in terms of substitutes than just how to makefood taste good. The number one way is starting with goodquality ingredients, the best that you can find and afford,and then getting a little savvy about using herbs and spices.There is a learning curve there. I remember when I startedout, I would put way too many herbs and spices in dishes,which would sometimes turn them into a muddled mess.So I teach people about creating flavor with whole foods,herbs and spices. For example, I’m not a fan of store-boughtvegetable broth because it’s really high in sodium; even thelow-sodium broth is extremely high. Of course, you canalways make your own salt-free broth, but I don’t. I’m arather lazy chef, to be honest, and I find that a finishedsoup, for example, tastes great without the addition of anybroth at all; the flavors come from using quality ingredients,as well as fresh and dried herbs and spices.

You stress preparing meals with only a limited number ofprocessed foods. Where do you draw the line?The most processed items I tend to use are for baking, such

as baking powder and baking soda. Luckily, you can getboth sodium-free. Even people who are on a health-pro-moting path do not want to give up baking entirely, so I might as well show them how to make muffins andpancakes as healthfully as possible for when they have theoccasional visitors, birthday parties, or holiday meals. Ialso use minimally processed salt-free mustard with onlya few ingredients. (I rarely buy a packaged food that hasmore than three to five ingredients.) I frequently use cookedcanned beans and tomatoes, as well as non-diary milks;but I try to find the milks with the fewest ingredientspossible, such as soymilk with only soybeans and water.Other non-dairy milks can be a challenge to find SOS-free,so often I just make my own almond or oat milk fromscratch; it’s not hard. I will also buy packaged whole-grainpastas and bags of frozen vegetables and fruit.

Where did you come up with your blog name“Straight Up Food?”Before I started working for the McDougalls, I enrolled ina 10-month-long basic nutrition course, hoping that it mightgive me a clearer idea of what I wanted to do within thescope of nutrition. Our final assignment was to come upwith a fictitious business and deliver a 45-minute presen-tation as the business owner. My fictitious business namewas “Straight Up Food.” I thought it was kind of catchyand memorable. I just wanted something different, neverintending to use it for an actual business. So later when Iwas trying to come up with a domain name for my website,many left me uninspired or they were already taken. So Ijust stuck with “Straight Up Food.” My hope with the nameis that it would convey clarity, simplicity, and honesty inplant-based cooking and eating.

It seems like there are a billion books on vegan and plant-based cooking out there, and we are seemingly bombardedwith recipes every day to the point that it often seemsoverwhelming and complicated. Are you here to say itdoesn’t need to be? Absolutely! The advantage that I have as a recipe developeris that I teach regularly, so I am constantly getting feedbackfrom my students about my recipes. And from this I havelearned that people want cooking to be easy, they don’twant to have to go to a different store to get special ingre-dients, they don’t want to wash too many dishes, and theydon’t want to be bothered with unnecessary steps andexpensive tools. I always have the home cook in mind asI’m developing new recipes, and if the result doesn’t excitemy taste buds or if it’s too complicated, I know it’s time togo back to the drawing board. I typically make a recipethree to five times before I post it.

Cathy with Dr. Alan Goldhamer

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You have a “My Meals” section on your blog. Are they reallythe meals you eat on a daily basis?Yes, those are really my meals. I have over 40 pictures inthat section. I thought that other people might find thisuseful, and they do. Our brains get so locked into thinkingthat our meals should look a certain way, so it gives peoplea new framework. I show them that you can eat a stuffedpotato and a green salad as a meal, or just a big, heartybowl of soup or stew. I do have more “centerpiece” dishes,such as a grain loaf, casserole, or pasta dish, but you don’tneed a centerpiece item (for many of us, this was chicken,beef, or fish) for a meal to be complete or nutritious.

Your photography is great. Do you have a professionalphotographer or do you take your own photos?Thank you! I take all the photos myself. I love photography.However, you might notice that my pictures are not overlystyled. I like to keep them fairly simple because, in part, Idon’t want people to think this is fancy, difficult-to-preparefood. This is not gourmet. As I like to say, it’s just “reallygood food that will make you feel really good.”

Do you practice what you preach, or more accuratelyperhaps, do you eat what you cook?Yes, I do. The comments I get most often from my studentsinclude, “Wow, this is really fun!” and “I really enjoyedthis class!” I think this is because I practice what I teach.I’m not secretly eating Taco Bell or chocolate bars. When Istarted out, these were indeed temptations that I gave intonow and then, but not anymore. As Dr. Klaper always says,“You can’t trick your body; it’s always looking.” So ifexcellent health is my goal, which it is, there’s no wayaround it — what I consistently put into my body is thesingle largest determinant of my overall health. What youput in will always be reflected on the outside and how youfeel inside. When you live this way you simply feel so goodthat you don’t want to back-pedal and screw up all thework you’ve put in, and jeopardize that good feeling. Youlearn to adjust over time. For example, my definition of atreat nowadays might be a couple dates, a bowl of fruit, ora green smoothie as opposed to past treats of greasy potatochips or oil- and sugar-filled vegan cookies. Teachers whodon’t walk their talk are short-changing their students inthe passion department; my passion for this lifestyle comesthrough in my classes and in my food, and I feel that it’swhat my students and readers resonate with most.

I’m sure you have observed that if you go into Whole Foods oralmost any health food store and try to find packaged foodswithout added oil, salt or sugar, it is almost impossible.Yes, it’s so true. We don’t need oil, salt or sugar in any recipe.

These are highly concentrated, nutritionally lacking “foodproducts” that can be highly addictive. They keep uscoming back for more and more, which is why foodmanufacturers, by design, use them to such staggeringdegrees in packaged foods. I always try and let peopleknow that after a period of consistently eating SOS-freemeals, your taste buds will adjust, and you’ll find that foodsyou initially found less interesting will seem to have muchmore flavor, and you will gradually desire these foods andpreparations more. The key is allowing your taste budsthis important adjustment period and then learning howto prepare food that tastes great using delicious wholefoods, herbs and spices. The standard American diet hasobscured the incredible natural flavors of whole plantfoods. Many people new to the diet are pleasantly surprisedhow good a potato or a soup can be when it isn’t weigheddown by so much salt or a blanket of oil.

Cathy, I think you are doing a tremendous service to theplant-based health movement that the NHA has led for over 65 years. We have been waiting a very long time forsomeone like you to come along to make eating simple,healthful and pleasurable. Thanks for your continuingcontributions to Health Science.Thank you so much! I’m so grateful that I found my wayto the McDougalls and then to TrueNorth, and discoveredwhat truly health-promoting diets really look like and feellike. I wouldn’t go back for a million dollars!

Well, to quote that HBO series, don’t “curb your enthusiasm.”I won’t! I am doing what I love while helping othersachieve excellent health. What could be better than that?

Cathy with Mary and Dr. John McDougall

Photos courtesy of Cathy Fisher.