t

.

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I .

" in stant success" products, such as chord attachments for pianos and automatic light meters for cameras. "These devices," concludes th e study, "come close to makin g a pro out of a dubber."

D ISCUSSIO N

SELZ : I have a numher of questions here which I would like the panel to discuss. questions I had prepared before ... but before doing so, or perhaps instead of doing so, I will just take the place ofthe moderator and ope n it r ight up toyou people.

GELD ZAHLER: I'd like to ask Mr. Kunitz a qu estio n. I 'd like to ask Mr. Kunitz what he feels the role of the Museum of Modern An, or the art magazines and so on is, if it's not to record and to present to th e public what is going on in the contemporary art world . If pop art is being done in New York City, if the Museum of Modern Art is involved in the hurly-burly, in the course of twentieth-century art and its most currenr manifestations as it has been since 1929 when it was founded, how could it possibly ignore something like this?

KUNITZ: 1don't think for a moment that th e Mu seum should ignore wh at's going on , especially a museum of modern art . But there are obviously principles of selectivity and of timing that enter into any active choice. I do have a feeling that in this terrib le effort to get everything even bifore it happens, something strange happens to the landscape of art in our time.

GF. l.nZAHLER: Then you feel mode rn art becomes modern in rime but not right away? KUN I'l'Z : Well, the old debate of the difference between contemporary and modern is,

l think, an exhausted one, and I don ' t want to get into that at this moment, but obviously (do believe in a prin ciple ofvalue.

KRAMER: May I ask Mr. Geldzahler a ques tion on that? Do yo u then conceive the Tole of the Museum to be Like that of a kind of three-dimensional tape recorder, giving us back what is currently being seen a few blocks away?

CELOZAHLER : I ,viU agl'ee that there llas bee n some confusio n in recent years between the gal leries and the Mnseum ofModer n Art. The Ad Reinhardt retrospective was given at the Section II , the big Dickinson show was at th e G:raham Gallery. not at one of the museums where it should be. the " Si.;xteen Americans" was here, the " 35 Painters under 35," Or whatever it was - a lot of whom didn't have galler ies - was at the Whitney, an d as far as thac goes, I would agree. But my feeling is that I pointed out th e fa ct that this all happened terribly quickly (instant art history, etc.), but it is a fact that it has been conside red and seen as a movement, and that the Musenm of Modern AIt with its dedication to eoutemporary an was made aware of it immediately, and conldn't ignore it . I just feel it was a compelling issue, and had ro be engaged .

KUN fT Z: But if the motto becomes "Make it new)" and not only "Make it new," but " Make it new fa st," and if obviously the role of th e Museum is , as you see it , to introduce tbe new, then the sure way o[being admitted to t he Museum is to make it new faste r t han anybody else. And this becomes , it seems to me, a merry-go-round.

STEINBERG: There is no shortage in the world today of museums, even museums dedica ted to modern art (I'm thinkiug. for in stance, of the Tate Gallery in London), which make a practice ofwaicing until quality can be sifted . The Tate Gallery now is trying ro raise I don ' t know how mauy hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy a Matisse. (They' re very short on Matisse. They missed Out on him .) And 1 would like to remind everybody here of a remark of Mr. Alfred Barr'::, . who is Director of Museum Collections, and I

76

quoted it once before fror ward intellige nce and hu temporary art. Mr. Barr 2 out to be valid in re trosp( think of art-buying in th we ll , a nd perhaps the Mu think that the words that the re befo re it happens. they ar e supposed to me' and they are clearly rear.1 say wh en you say "before

KRAMER: May Tmak pl etely ignoring the Tole It is its responsibil ity as p Ie are objecting to .

GELDZ AHL ER : It is t( very much involved in th

STE INBERC: Hilton, to play in making histor) of power. The Museum i against God knows ever gress. And now that the Museum has very tough

KR AMER: Not reaJJy. STEIN8ERC: \Vell , it

not tough enough, ther and the others, are fash

KUNlTZ: But you reI' STEINBERG: No, I ar

and other museums, aJ equally, in power play.

KRAME R: No.1 don' STEINBERC: You ca

certain art and th ls hAS KRAMER: Oh yes yo Gf.LDZAHLER : Mr.

Moder n An slep out fo KRA ME R: Yes, I see ASHTON : Hil toJJ , W

always thought. that ar gf!nre or art, why don' t

SELl: I think mayt one question that I'd raised , thac I'd like to I cessiries for anything I tile experience. Now, i experience possible w i tse lf? Without any di~

Isaid before that the questions about the art smlus of a work thac 1S presented Co us, depend not merely on analysis of certain inherent charactf'riSlic3, but may also dt :pend on the naLure of the spectamr's response, this would imply that before I can answer [he question " Is this a work of art or not?" I want [Q have all the data in . Now the picture itsclfis part of the data, obviously. The rest of the data will be my reaction ro it, the full experiCllcc ufic. And this means that I must be interes ted in the lUnd of reaction a work elieit'i. Not eveTY work elicits a reaction from me, obviously. And I know for instance, in reading - I have a certain advantage here over Mr. Kramer because I have his article that he wrote in 1~le Nation. And the article is. as everything Mr. Kramer writes, exceedingly intelligent. 1 disagree with about go percent of it. BUl I disagree with the method. And Ihe mcth(Jd is evident , for instan ce, when he begins to describe the show at the Janis Gallcry. He says: "It is full of things to talk ahout. There is a smaJl refrigerator whose door opcns to the sound of a fire siren. There is an old-fashioned lawn mower joined to a painting on cauvas. There are coJJections of old sabers and discarded eye-glasses unde r glas!i. There aJ:e even paincings, like you know, with paint on canvas, of pies and sand\\'iches and canned soup ... " and jc goes on listing lhc ~t: things. Now, at no point is

thert~ any indication that Mr. Kramer submitted to anyone of th~se objects singly. Mr. Kramcr is the person J have in mind who makes a p: