A Conversation With Mario Vargas Llosa Oviedo

8/2/2019 A Conversation With Mario Vargas Llosa Oviedo

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University of Texas Press

Conversacin con Mario Vargas Llosa sobre: La ta Julia y el escribidor / A Conversation withMario Vargas Llosa about: La ta Julia y el escribidorAuthor(s): Mario Vargas Llosa and Jos Miguel OviedoReviewed work(s):Source: Texas Studies in Literature and Language, Vol. 19, No. 4, An Issue Devoted to theWork of Mario Vargas Llosa (WINTER 1977), pp. 546-559Published by: University of Texas PressStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40754514 .

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JoseMiguelOviedoConversacin onMarioVargasLlosa sobreLa taJuliayel escribidorAmediadose marzo e 1977, aUniversidade Oklahoma larevistaWorlditeratureodayantes ooksAbroad) rganizaronuna Conferenciaedicada MarioVargas losa,para aqueinvita-ron specialmentel escritoreruano a ungrupo e crticosestudiosose suobranarrativa.staConferenciae realiz omoparte el ciclo stablecidoor osauspiciadoresarahonrar im-portantesscritoresel mundo ispnico,en l sehanpresen-tado, ntre tros, orges, ctavio azyJulio ortzar.Duranteas dos semanasrevias esareunin,l autor ablen seminariosconferenciasobre upropia bra, uexperienciade escritor otros roblemasinculados susituacine novelistahispanoamericano.provechandoupresencia elhecho equehaba rado onsigoloriginalesunueva ovela, aradarle osltimosoques ntes e supublicacinnBarcelonaosiblementeestemismoo, lautor ccedi grabarnfragmentoela obrapara lArchivoeLiteraturaispnica,ela BibliotecaelCon-greso.Mientraslhacasu ecturan os estudiose la Universi-dad, urgia ideadequeesagrabacinecomplementaseonunaentrevista,onducida orm, obre u nueva ovela. ste selorigenel texto uese eea continuacinquesepublica onautorizacinelescritorde a mencionadaiblioteca,raciaslagestine a seoraGeorgetteorn, quien xpresomirecono-cimiento.Vargas losadebehaber oncedido entenaresereportajes,sobreos temasmsvariados, seguironcedindolos.i algojustificaapublicacineste, squecontienenaexposicinmuy ompleta detallada elagnesis,esarrollo resultadoi-naldesultimorabajo ovelstico.l lector odruego om-pararstas eclaracioneson anovelamisma sacar uspropiasconclusiones.


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JosMiguelOviedoA Conversation ithMarioVargasLlosa aboutLa taJuliayel escribidor

About hemiddlefMarch 977,theUniversityfOklahoma ndWorlditeratureodayformerlyooksAbroad) rganizedSym-posium edicatedo thework fMarioVargas losa, o which hePeruvianriterswell s a group fcriticsnd tudentsfhisworkwere nvited.his onference asone ofthe eries f con-ferencesstablishedytheUniversityfOklahoma ndWorldit-eratureoday ohonor rominentritersf theSpanish-speakingworld,onferenceshat avepreviouslyeaturedorges, ctavioPaz, ndJulio ortzar,mong thers.Duringhe woweeks reviouso the onference,arioVargasLlosa ecturedndconductedeminarsbouthiswork,bouthisexperiencessawriter,nd bouthis ituationsanHispanic-meri-canwriter.uetohispresencendto thefact hat e hadbroughtalong hemanuscriptfhisnewnovel,which ewasrevisingorpublicationnBarcelonaater hisyear,Vargas losaagreedotape readingfa fragmentfhisnovel or heHispanic itera-tureArchivesftheLibraryfCongress. hile etapedhisread-ing ttheUniversityecordingtudio,he dea arose ocomple-ment he apewithn nterview,o beconductedyme, bouthisnewnovel. his stheoriginfthefollowingext,1whichsreproducederewith hepermissionftheLibraryfCongress,thanks othe ssistancefMrs.Georgetteorn, o whom ex-pressmygratitude.Vargaslosamust ave een nterviewedundredsftimes,about varietyfsubjects. ut foneneeds justificationorpublishinghisnterview,et t bethefact hat tcontains de-tailed ccount fthegenesis,evelopment,ndfinal esultsfhislatest ovelisticchievement.hereader ill ater e ableto com-pare hese ommentsith henoveltself,ndto draw isownconclusions.


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JosMiguel viedo 548JMO:Bien,Mario,hora uetienes u novelamuy vanzada enproceso inal erevisin, egustaraueechases namiradahacia trs mecontases mo urgint la ideade escribireste ibro. Cmo edefini,mofue omando ormaa histo-riaquecontiene?Y cundo omenzasteescribirla?MVL1:Bueno, aci omo asitodo o queheescrito,basedeciertos ecuerdos.neste aso,recuerdoselaoque pastra-bajando nRadioPanamericananLima, seaelao1953o54.Yorecordabaiempresta pocavinculada unpersonaje

quetrabajaba,oexactamentenRadioPanamericanaondeyomeocupabade osserviciosenoticias,e losboletines,inoen unaradio ontigua,adioCentral,ueera dems elmismopropietarioePanamericana. se eraunpersonajemuy into-resco ueescribaodos os radioteatrosueeran lplatofuer-tedeRadioCentral.raunbolivianouehaba ido mportadopor os dueos e laradio,os hermanoselgado arker,orquehaban escubiertoueestehombreraun "as" enBolivia etodo oquefuera adioteatrosincluso eatromelodramtico.Entonceseocupaba n Limadetodos osradioteatrose esaemisora,uenosolamentescriba ino ambiniriga inter-pretabaomogaln.Y eraunpersonajeealmente uy into-resco ue trabajabaomoungaleote,uetenauna extraordi-naria oncienciarofesionalestabamuymbuido e supapeldeescritor,eartista,ero lmismoiempo,uzgado esdeunpunto evistaiterario,igamos,raunespecie eparodia decaricatura,eversinedestre,eformada,npocopattica,eloquepodaserun escritor. tena ealmente ucha opulari-dad. Entiendouesusradioteatrosran n xito nRadioCen-tral.Ammediverta ucho, astamefascinaba,orque rajustamentenapocaen aqueyosenta adavezmsfuerteavocacin e a literatura.n a querealmenterea ue oquemsmegustabaer n avida, ra erun escritor. creo ueelnico scritorue yoconoca nesos os, uerealmenteodamerecerse nombreor ltiempoonsagradosuoficio, orelpblico ue seguayapoyaba utrabajo,raesta aricaturade a literatura,lautor eradioteatrooliviano,alSalmn.Bueno,eocurrinahistoriantreocosaytrgica RalSalmn: evolvioco.Pero a forma omo edescubriueestaba oco fue ealmenteegocijanteorque ue travs elosoyentese suradioteatro.nda RadioCentralomenza recibirartas,lamadas protestaseoyentesuedescubrangruesasncongruencias,ncoherenciasnsusradioteatros.er-sonajes uecambiabaneprofesincambiaban enombre,o que nclusoaltaban e unradioteatrootro. nfin,mpeza-


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ConversationithVargaslosa 549JMO:Well,Mario, ow hat ournovel spracticallyompletedand nfact ndergoinginal evision,'d likeyouto ook backandtellmehowthe dea ofwritinghis ookcame oyou.Howdid ts toryake hape?Andwhen idyoustart ritingit?MVL1:Well,t took hape,ike lmostverything'vewritten,frommy ldmemories.nthis ase,memoriesftheyear hatI workedorRadioPanamericananLima, hats, 1953,or 54.I'vealways ememberedhis eriod s inkedo a manwhoused

towork, otforRadioPanamericanahere was nchargefthenews ulletins,utfor neighboringadio tation, adioCentral, hichwas lso owned ythe wners fRadioPanamer-icana.This ellowwasquite colorfulersonwhowrote ll thescriptsor he oapoperaswhichwere hehighlightfRadioCentralrogramming.e wasBolivian,ndhadbeenbroughtto Limabytheproprietorsftheradio tation,heDelgadoParkerrothers,ecausenBolivia e wasan "ace" inallthatconcernedadio oap operas.Hewas nchargefall the oapoperas fthat adio tation,otonlywritinghe criptsutalsodirectingnd ctinghemale eads.Hewas ruly pictur-esque haracter howorkedike hedevil,whohad anextra-ordinaryense fprofessionalesponsibility,ndwhowasveryabsorbedyhisrole s writerndperformer.ut tthe ametime,udgingim rom literaryerspective,et's ay,he wasa sort fparodyrcaricature,pedestrianersion,wistedndsomewhatathetic,fa "writer."till, hemanwasquitepop-ular. understandhat is oap operaswere real uccess nRadioCentral. egreatlymusedme, ven ascinated e,be-cause twaspreciselytthis ime hat wasfeelingstrongerand trongerrge obecome writer yself;wasthinkingthatwhat wantedmostnmy ifewastobea writer.ndthinkhat he nlywriterknew tthat ime-who ouldbereallyalled "writer"ecause fthe mount ftime edicatedtowriting,ndbecause fthepublicwhich ollowedndappre-ciated iswork-was hisiteraryaricature,hewriterftheBolivianoap operas, alSalmn.Well,omethingappenedtoRalSalmn,omethingetweenhe omic ndthe ragic:hewentnsane. ut heway nwhich is nsanity asrevealedwasrathermusing,ecause t wasthroughis isteners.neday,RadioCentralegan oreceiveetters,elephonealls, ndall sorts fprotestsromistenersfthe oapoperaswhowerediscoveringrossncongruitiesnd ncoherencesnthe cripts:suddenly,he oapopera haractersould hange ames rpro-fessionsrwould ven kip round rom nesoapopera o an-


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JosMiguel viedo 550ban contarsextravaganciasdisparatesescomunalesn osradioteatroseRalSalmn, as, osdueos e a radio escu-brieronueeste eorufra na crisis. ablaron onl.Enton-ces, l,muy ervioso,omenz introducirodaclasede cats-trofesnsusradioteatroara iquidar suspersonajespodercomenzarenuevo as historiasuese e haban mpezadoconfundir.lfinal,a cosa no tuvo olucin:RalSalmn uvoque rse descansarunhospital.iempremequeddandovueltasn a cabeza a historiae RalSalmn siempre ensen escribirlguna ezalgoquese relacionaraonesto. .. Enrealidadse eselorigenmsremoto eestanovela. or upues-to,en mi ibro oda stahistoriastmuy ransformada,epue-dereconocereella lounaespecie e embrin. dems, eaadido lahistoriae estepersonaje,tra uehaceunaespe-ciedecontrapunto,ueescomoun astre, erreno,erosmil,a esemundo epuramaginacin,epurafantasa,elocura,quees elmundo e os radioteatroselprotagonista.JMO:Muy ien. Y cmohastrabajadose contrastentrelmundo otalmentemaginario,elirante,elpersonaje elmun-doms astradoor a realidad?Dequmanera asestructu-radonarrativamentesto?MVL1:Despus emucho ensar- orque stahistoriaa tuve omoproyecto,omo edeca,durante astanteiempo-uando m-pecmso menos trataredarle naestructura,naforma ematerializacinesahistoria,e meocurriue para uenofueraxcesivamentebstracta,ara uenoocurrieran unmun-dopuramentee uegomental,edelirio antstico,odra ercontrapesadaorunahistoriaeal, sdecir, orunahistoria sterrestre,sdirecta;na historia svividauefantaseadaimaginada.ntoncese meocurrio siguiente:por uesahistoriaeRalSalmn o seentreverabaonunahistoriaer-sonal? a pocaenqueocurria historiaeRalSalmn, ueuntiempo astantemportantearam, nprimerugar, orquecomoyatedije, orrespondes menos los aos nquesedefini navocacinuevenapugnandoesde os trs, eroqueyohasta ntonces omehaba trevidoasumireltodo.Ensegundougar,s a pocaenquemecasporprimeraezyesematrimonioue ncierta orma nacto umamentee-merario,orqueyotena18 aosyadems orquemetrajomuchos roblemasn a vidaprctica inclusomuchos roble-masfamiliares.entoncesemeocurriuelas historiaseli-ranteselprotagonistaueescribeadioteatrosquetiene naimaginacinerturbada,uizspodamezclarseonunahisto-riaquefuera xactamenteo contrario,lgo bsolutamenteb-jetivoyabsolutamenteierto. nahistorian a queyocon-


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ConversationithVargaslosa 551other. nd o,because normouslyizarrendextravagantthings egan ohappennRalSalmon'scripts,heownersofthe adio tation iscoveredhat ewasundergoingomecrisis. hey pokewith im bout t. As a result,almn er-vouslytartedoconjure p n his criptsseries fcatastro-phes esignedo kill ff hose haracters howere ecomingconfusedvennhisownmind,o that e couldbeginnewwith clean late.But n the nd, herewasno solution: aulSalmn adtogooff o a hospitalorecuperate.is toryl-ways tuckwithme nd kept hinkinghat would ome aywriteomethingelated o t. .. Actually,hat torysthemost emoteriginf his ovel.Naturally,llthis squite rans-formednmy ook, ndone can seeonly estigesfthat tory.Furthermore,have dded o the toryfRalSalmn notherstoryhat ervess a kind fcounterpoint,hat nchorsnthetangible,erifiableorld hepurelymaginary,urely antastic,madworld ftheprotagonistndhis oapoperas.JMO:Howhaveyouachievedhis ontrastetween he otallyimaginary,elirious orld ftheprotagonistndthemore ealworld? owdidyouhandle hiswithinhenarrativetructure?MVL1:Afterivingt a lot ofthought-ecause his ovel asbeena projectfmine,ike said, or long ime-when began otry oshapet, ogive orm o this tory,t occurredo methatinorder ortnot obeexcessivelybstract,ort not o takeplace n a realm fpurelymental ames,fdeliriousantasy,tshould e balanced ya realistictory,hats,bya more rdi-nary,more irectne;- storymore f ived xperiencehanoffantasyr magination.hen thoughtfthis:why ouldn'tthe toryfRalSalmn e intermingledith ersonalx-perience?heRalSalmntory appeneduring verym-portantimenmyife ecause,nthefirstlace, t was t thattime hat ftereelingheurge or ears,myvocation asde-cided, lthoughntil hen hadnotdared opursuettotally.Secondly,t was hen hat gotmarriedor hefirstime,ndthatmarriageas ncertain ays very aringct,becausewasonly 8,andalsobecause tcausedmemany racticalrob-lems ndeven amilyroblems.hen toccurredomethat hedelirioustories ftheprotagonisthowriteshemelodramasandwhohasa disturbedmaginationouldperhapse nter-twined ith story hichwaspreciselyheopposite,ome-thing bsolutelybjectivendabsolutelyrue. wouldnarrate


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JosMiguel viedo 552tara xactamentenos pisodios emivida lo largo e unosmeses: ltiempo uetrabajnRadioPanamericana,mo o-noca la quefuemimujer,o quefuemimatrimoniotodoloqueesosignificnmi xperienciaersonal,tc. ntercalaresasdoshistoriasraunpococomopresentarlreverso elanversoeunarealidad,naparte bjectiva unaparteubjec-tiva, nacaraverdica otranventada.rat ehacer sto nla novela.Alternarncaptulo, igamos,e imaginacinurao casipura, onuncaptulo ehistoriaersonalutntica,o-cumental. o quepasesquetambinneste aso, omo mmeocurreiempre,lproyectompez desbaratarselahorade llevarse laprctica.sdecir,osepisodiosn osqueyoquerano ser inoveraz contarolamenteosas ueestabaabsolutamenteegurouehaban curridos,eran ompleta-mentemposibles,orqueamemoriasengaosa, se conta-mina efantasa porque n elmomento ismo eescribirseelementomaginarioefiltra,e nstala se ncorporarreme-diablementelo queunoescribe. almismoiempo,n os ca-ptulos ueson upuestamentesntesis parfrasise losradioteatroselprotagonista,apuranvencinampocoxiste.Hay ambinnos ngredientesntrusos,iramos,ueprocedende a realidadbjectiva,uese van nfiltrandoocoa poco.Detalmaneraueyocreo ue aversininal e lanovela salgobastanteistintoe o quehabaplaneado,unque nrealidadfue onstruidaobre sta deabsica.JMO:Megustarareguntartehora ielpersonaje rincipaleestanovela,ntra nrelacin strechaonunconjunto eper-sonajesmuy recido, siesunanovela uese concentran unprotagonista,igamosomo nPantalen.Dejasque osper-sonajes ayan ejiendo istorias uy omplejas?Esunanoveladnde e reduces mrgenesarrativosstrechos,msbien,correspondeesetipodenovelas eejecucinms mbiciosaintencinlenaria,omoLa CasaVerde?MVL1:No es elcasodePantalen,n elsentido equenohayunnicoprotagonista,inovarios. ayvariosue pueden er on-sideradosentrales.hora,o que pasaesquehaypersonajesedoscategoras. aypersonajesue,diramos,orrespondenese nivel real," onde st lnarradore lahistoria,nestecasoyomismo,onde st lautormismo e losradioteatrosydonde st odoel mundo e asradios,l de launiversidad,lde a familia elnarrador. luego stnospersonajesuefor-manparte eese otronivel erealidad,arealidadmaginariainventada. esospersonajeson,por upuesto, uchomsnu-merosos adems ondeotranaturaleza. medida ueavanza


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ConversationithVargaslosa 553accuratelyome pisodesfmy wn ife,overingeveral onths:the ime uring hich workedorRadioPanamericana,owI metmywife, owmymarriageas, ndall that hewholethingmeantnmypersonalxperience,tc.Toalternatee-tweenhesewo tories as littleikepresentinghefrontndbackofreality,nobjectiveart nda subjectiveart, realface nd made-upne. tried o do thisnthenovel,o alter-nate chapterotallyralmostotallymagined,ith chapterofpersonal istory,uthentic,ocumented. hat appened asthat,gainnthis ase, shappens ithmealways,myprojectbegan isintegratinghen ut ntopractice.hat s, t wasto-tally mpossibleowritehe haptersn which wanted o beabsolutelyruthfulndtell nly fthings hich wasabsolute-ly ure adhappened reciselyo,becausememorystrickyandgets ontaminatedith antasy,ndbecause ven s oneiswriting,n elementf maginationeepsn, akes old ndinevitablyecomes art fwhat ne swriting.nd t the ametime,n he haptershat re upposedlyynthesesrparaphrasesofthe oapoperas ftheprotagonist,heres no"purenven-tion." here,oo, here reforeignngredientshichome romobjectiveeality, hichnfiltrateittle y ittle. o, think hatthefinal ersionfthenovel squitedifferentrom hat hadoriginallylanned,ven hought wasbuilt nthat asic dea.

JMO: 'd like oaskyou f hemain haracterfthis ovel omesinto loserelationshipith goodnumber fcharacters,r fthenovel s concentratedna single rotagonist,s in, ay, an-talen. o you llow he haractersoweave ery omplexstories?s it a noveln which ouhavenarrow arrativear-gins,r s t nstead type fnovel fmore mbitiousesignandbroadercope,ikeLa Casa Verde?MVL1:tisnot ike antalennthe ense hat heresnosingleprotagonist,ut, ather,everal. here re everal haractersthat anbe consideredcentral." ow,what appenssthattherere wo ategoriesfcharacters:here re haractershatbelongo that real"dimension,here henarrators, n thiscasemyself,here he uthor fthe oap operass,andwhereeverybodyrom he adio tations,heuniversity,ndthenar-rator'samilyelong.And hen here re he haractershatmake pthat therevel freality,he maginaryr nvented"reality," ho re, fcourse,muchmore umerous,ndof adifferentature. sthenovel evelops,hemental isturbance


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JosMiguel video 554lanovela,eprofundizaagravaaperturbacinelescritor;simultneamente,ospersonajesanperdiendou ndividualidad,se van onfundiendontre.Cambian o solamentee nombresinodefunciones.anborrndoseasfronterasue osseparan.Mi deaeramostrartravseeste ipodeepisodios defen-menos,ntratamientoadavezms rrespetuoso,iramos,eltiempo delespacionarrativos.stofuehaciendomsprecisalahistoria arradan elotronivel erealidad.JMO: l elementomelodramticontuobra stmuy resentedesde us omienzos.n Pantalenareces aberlegado unaespecie eapoteosis,ero quparece uetodava as excederese mite. Escorrectaa impresinuetengo or lcaptuloqueacabasdeleer?MVL1:Yo creo ues.Eseelementofectivamenteebehaberestado iempre resentenmiobra, orque iempreuimuysensible l.Durantemucho iempo rocurisimularloen-cubrirlo.ero adavezmenosn osltimosibros. eroyocreo ueste s elprimeronde ealmenteonstituyea ma-teria rofundaelrelato.Nosolamenteorque lmundo elradioteatro,l mundo eesasubliteraturaueproducelpro-tagonistasloexige, inoporqueanovelamisma rata emos-trarmo odoese mundo oes sino amagnificacinla se-leccin eunasuma eexperiencias,uesonprofundamentemelodramticassensiblerasn ospersonajese avidareal.JMO: Inclusivelpersonaje ue nicialmenteba ser lqueen-carnabaxperienciasersonalesuyas?MVL1:Bueno,a idea,ms ueeso,el resultado el ibro,sdes-cubrirambinnesa vidareal, nesa versin e unavida orrien-te, l melodramaelradioteatro.lmelodramaxiste lltanprofunda,anvividamenteomo n el mundo e a imaginaciny a fantasa.JMO: l tonodelanovela, orelpasaje ueheescuchado,esultatambinnteresanteecompararon o quehas ogradonte-riormente.sdecir,neste asoparece uetuestilo e havuel-to msparecidollenguaje,ecarcterominantementeral,quethabas nsayadonPantalen. o ssiestoy quivocadoen esto.MVL1:Mira,n oscaptulosue lamo objectivos,"ayun en-guaje umamentenformativo,scueto. . .JMO:Comoos"partes" ePantalen,oi ejemplo?MVL1:No,porque llhayun elementoardico,ueeneste ex-to nodeberaparecereninguna anera. o,soncaptulosnlosquerealmenteeunamaneramuy factual,"omo e diraen ngls,eva desarrollandoa accin. ncambio,n osotros


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ConversationithVargaslosa 555oftheprotagonisteepensndbecomesggravated;imultane-ously, is haractersegin o osetheirndividuality,ecomingconfused ith neanother.hey hange otonlynname, utalso nfunction.heboundarieshat eparatehem egin ovanish.My dea was oshow hroughhis ype fepisode ndphenomenon,n ncreasinglyrreverentreatment,etussay,ofnarrativeimendspace.Thisbroughtntobetter ocus hestory arratedntheotherevel freality.JMO:Themelodramaticlementnyourworksthere rom hevery eginning.ith antalen ou eemed o have chieveda certainpotheosis,ut t ooks sthoughereyou'llgoevenbeyondhat. smy mpressionfthe hapterhatyou've ustread n accurate ne?MVL1: think o. That lementmust ave ndeed lways een nmywork, ecause 'vealways eenveryensitiveo t.Forlong ime tried o hide torcover tup.But ess nd ess nthelastfew ooks.But think hat his s thefirstne nwhichtconstituteshedeepcore fthenarrative.otonly ecause hesoap peraworld,heworld fthat ubliteraturehich roducestheprotagonist,emandst,butbecause henovel tself riestoshowhow llthatworldsnothingut magnificationraselectionfa sum fexperiences,hichreprofoundlyelo-dramaticnd entimentalnthe eal-lifeharacters.

JMO:ncludinghe haracterhooriginallyasto be the netoportrayour wnpersonalxperiences?MVL1:Well,he dea, rmore han hat,heresultf thebook,is to discovernthat eal ife,nthat ersion fordinaryife,themelodramafa soap opera. he melodramaxists hereustasdeeply,ust svividlysintheworld f maginationndfan-tasy.JMO:Thetone fthenovel, ccordingo thepassage've ustheard,salso nterestingocompare ithwhat ou've chievedbefore. hat s, nthis ase t ooks ikeyour tyle asbecomemoreike pokenanguage,omethinghich ouhadalreadytried ut nPantalen.don'tknowf 'mwrongnthis.MVL1: ook, nthe hapterscall"objective,"heresan extreme-

ly nformative,tarkanguage.. .JMO:LikePantalen'sfficialeports,ornstance?MVL1:No,because heresparodyhere, hich hould ot ppearanywherenthis ext.No,they re haptersnwhichna very"factual"manneras onewould ay nEnglish)he ction e-velops. ntheother and,ntheotherhapters,heresan ele-


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JosMiguel viedo 556captulos, abaunelemento e"huachafera,"omo e diraen imeo. sdecir, n elementoardico risueo,ueapare-ceradeuna maneramuy isimuladalprincipio que uego eira centuando,asta legar ser gresivo,asi nsolenten asltimas istorias.stefragmentoecaptulo ueacabode leeres unade ashistoriasn asqueya hayunaespecie edesme-lenamiento,n a exageracin a confusinepersonajes.amayorae ospersonajesrovienenecaptulosnteriores,pero onnombres,ficios sexos ambiados.o que queraeraquehubiera naespecie e crescendon sto.Nossialfinaln a novela esultars o si todoesmshomogneouealprincipio;e eso no ogro arme uenta odava.JMO: satendenciae la novela cruzaras neasde o realylo imaginario,ebe ener nsignificadolterior. egustarasaber ulesel diseo ue anovela roponel final. Cul sla imagen ue puededescubrirllector?Ques oqueda sen-tidoyunidad esosdos nivelesor os cuales onducesa ac-cinde la novela?MVL1:Bueno, omo sabes, mnomegustanasnovelas onmoraleja-ntodo aso amsheprocuradoar namoraleja.. .JMO:Hombre,opreguntorninguna oraleja,inopor l sen-tido otal ela historia.. .MVL1: uesnoscuales odraner asconclusiones,igamos,interpretativasuesepuede acar etodaesa historia.sonisiquierame oheplanteado.Mi ntencinra ontarstahisto-ria imultneamentendosniveles mostrarmo stos osniveles,uealprincipioarecenanrgidamentendependientesunodeotro, nrealidad stn isceralmenteomunicados.nlas historiaselprotagonistano o va descubriendoocoapoco; o queparece primeraista otalmentemaginativo,ro-ducto e afantasa,st nrealidadnraizadonmenudoscon-tecimientosesuvida, nsrdidospisodiosotidianos.o mis-moocurrenesaexperienciauetpuedeslamar iminutatrivialelotronarradoruecuenta usperipeciasrivadaslolargo e eseao.Hayelementosllquesontan xtravagantes,distorsionadosexcesivos,obre odoa nivel elsentimiento,como n elmundo elosradioteatros.seaqueesosdosmun-dosenrealidad oestn andiferenciados;onstituyenlodis-tintos rados euna mismaealidad,eunamismaxperiencia.Pero ahistoria ismaoncluyems menos omo o habapensado lprincipio.orquemeolvid edecirte,lcontestartuprimeraregunta,ue yovolv ver estepersonajeosdespus e haber ejado a radioysalido elPer, nunodeloscortos iajes uehicederegresoLima.Norecuerdoien,


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Conversation with VargasLlosa -557

ment fbad taste r huachaferia,"sonewould ay nLima.Bythat mean nelement othparodiendplayful, hichwouldnitiallye wellhidden,utwould ainmpetusntilitbecameggressive,lmostnsolent,nthe ast tories. hisfragmentfa chapterhat 've ustread s one ofthe toriesnwhichhere'slready sort fcompletehaos n the xaggera-tion ndconfusionfthe haracters.ost fthe haracterscomefromrevioushapters,utwith hanged ames,hangedprofessions,ven hangedenders. hat wantedwas sort fcrescendoffectn this. don'tknow f hatwill e so attheendofthenovel, r f verythingill e more omogeneousthan tthebeginning;can't uite ee that syet.JMO:That endencyfthenovel ocross ver oundariese-tweenhe eal ndthe maginaryust ave nulteriorignifi-cance. 'd like oknowwhatsthefinal esign.Whatmage anthereader iscern?What ivesmeaningndunityo those wolevels nwhich oudirect he ction fthenovel?

MVL1:Well,syouknow, don't ikenovelswith moral-'veneverriedogive moral. . .JMO:Now,wait. 'm not skingbout moral, ut bout heultimate eaningfthe tory.. .MVL1:Well,don'tknowwhatnterpretativeonclusions ightbedrawnrom hiswhole tory.haven'tven osed hat ues-tion omyself. y ntentionasto tell his toryimultaneous-lyontwo evels ndto showhowthese wo evels, hich tfirstseem origidlyndependentromneanother,re ctuallyis-cerallyonnected.nebeginsodiscoverheprotagonist,tepby tep, hroughisown tories; hat ooks t firstightotallyimaginative,heproductffantasy,sactuallyootedn minutedaily ccurrencesnhisown ife,nsordid, aily pisodes. hesame hing appens ith he eeminglyrivialnd nsignificantexperiencesftheother arratorellingisprivatexperiencesduringhat ear. here re n textravagant,wisted,nd en-timentallements,smuchs n heworld f oap operas.Whichmeans hat hose woworlds re ctually ot odifferent;heyare ctuallyifferentevels fthe ame eality,fthe ame x-perience.ut he torytself ndsmore r ess heway hadplannedrom hebeginning.ecause forgototellyou,whenI answeredour irstuestion,hat saw his ersongain, earsafterhad eft he adio tation ndtravelledbroad,noneofmy hort isits ack oLima. don'trememberoowell, utthinktwas nthe1960s. met hisman, he uthorfthe oapoperas, hohad eft hehospital,ured, uthadnevereturned


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JosMiguel viedo 558pero reo uefue n os60.Me ncontron ste utor e radio-teatrosueyahaba alido elhospital,ehaba urado, ero uenohabavuelto lmundo e aradio. nesosmomentosstabatrabajandonunarevistaeLima, napublicacinensacionalistayadems epolticaurbiauese lamabaxtra, inanciadanpar-tepor agente eOdra.Mipersonajerabajaballenunpuestomodestsimo.ra datero" olicial, i iquieraedactor.raa osdatos e ascomisarasara ue osredactaralguienn arevista.mme mpresionucho erlo. lhaba idodentroelmundo elaradio npersonajeealmenteuymportante,uy amoso nLima, ahora ues staba ealmenteonvertidon altimaiezaenel mecanismoe unarevista,ero uriosamenteoque haca, s-taba ambinntimamenteinculadoon oquehabahecho ima-ginadontes: lmundo rotescoexageradoe oshechos olicia-les.Oseaquesiempreuve lfinal e a historiaesde ncomienzo.JMO: Est unovela ituadanalgn erodo econocibleelavidaperuana? e opreguntoorqueustamentedices uehay nagran asederealidadmuchosersonajesexperienciasconcretas. egustaraaber ialude circunstanciasealgntipo, olticas sociales, si, alvezestdesconectadae todareferenciaistrica.MVL1:No,no,estmuy recisamenteechada n osaos50,amediadoseesadcada.JMO:Quees a decostumbreara . . .MVL1: ,comodecostumbre.hay lgunas lusiones,or u-puesto,lmomentooltico, tambinalgunasmodas, lamsica eesapoca, o quecontribuyesituarlan eltiempo.Y tiene nfinal eplogo ueocurrenosdiezo doce aosdespus.JMO:Unaltima regunta.Cmo e lama unovela?MVL1:Bueno, omoyameocurritra ez, ambinstanovelamehadadomuchos olores e cabezacon elttulo.Hedudadomuchas eces.Habapensado n unmomentoonerlenoquedespus esech orquemepareca emasiadoocosoydistor-sionador elahistoria.raLa taJulia elescribidor,1ero adescart alfinalreo uemevoy quedar onunttulo ueesms .. denovela icaresca: idaymilagrosePedroCa-macho.JMO:Bueno, reo ueeso estodo.Gracias, ario.IndianaUniversity,loomingtonNota1. Juliaes el nombrede la primera sposa del autor.


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Conversation ithVargas losa 559

to radio.He was thenworking or magazinenLima,a sensa-tionalist ublication fmurky olitics alledExtra,whichwaspartly inanced yOdria'spartisans. almnworked here,na veryhumbleposition.He was not even a reporter imself,utgathered acts orpolicestories.He wouldbring he nforma-tionfrom heprecincts or omeoneelse to write hereports.tshockedmeterriblyo seehim. He had beenquitean importantcharacterwithin he worldofradio,very amousnLima,andnow he had becomethe smallest og inthe mechanismfa mag-azine.Butstrangelynough,whathewasdoingnowwasinti-mately onnectedwithwhathe'ddone or magined efore: hegrotesquendexaggerated orldofpolicereports.Whichmeansthat alwayshadtheepilogue, rom heverybeginning.

JMO: s yournovel et nsomerecognizable eriod nPeruvianlife? askyoubecauseyousaythat thas a broadbasis nreal-ity ndmany oncrete haractersndexperiences.'d liketoknow fthere reallusions o specific oliticalorsocialcircum-stances r f t iscompletely evoid ofhistorical eferences.MVL1:No, no, it svery recisely ated nthe 50s, inthatdecade.JMO:Whichstheusual one foryou.MVL1:Yes,theusualone.Andthere resomeallusions, fcourse,to thepoliticalmoment,nd also to sometrends,o themusicofthat ime, ll ofwhich ontributeoplacing t na certaintime.And thas an epiloguewhich akesplace abouttentotwelveyears ater.JMO:One lastquestion:what'sthenameofyournovel?MVL1:Well,ikeoncebefore,'ve hadheadachesoverthetitle fthisnovel. 'vehadso manydoubts. hadthoughttfirst fatitle hat laterdismissed ecause tseemedmuchtoo jocularanddistortingfthestory.twasLa taJuliay el escribidor,2but discardedtandfinally think willretain titlewhichismore . . thatofa picaresquenovel:Vidaymilagros e PedroCamacho.JMO:Well, think hat s all. Thanks,Mario.IndianaUniversity,loomingtonNotes

1. InterviewranslatedyMarcela oiseaudeRossman2.Julia sthename fVargas losas first ife.After his nterviewasmade, hewriterhanged ismind ndpublishedhenovel nder his itle.

A Conversation With Mario Vargas Llosa Oviedo

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