336 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [APL. 17

able would take the jetty out a consider- Iable distance, and, as to the rest, be,hoped the House, whoever was in it,!would be able hereafter to find the moneyto complete the work.

Tan DIRECTOR OF PUBLICWORKS (Hon. 3. A. Wright) did notsuppose there would be any objectionto this address being presented; but itwas very certain that the funds availablewould not do what the hon. member pro-posed. With the amount at present athis disposal it would be utterly impos-sible to improve this jetty as suggested.There was only about £1 ,200 left, andthat would not take the jetty out 120 or130 feet. According to the soundings,it would not imrove the approach to thejetty at all. Of course it might do as acommencement, but it would require aconsiderable sum more to make the exten-sion of any practical value. He had saidthe same thing on previous occasions. Ifthe House wished it, and the Geraldtonpeople wished it, the funds now available

might be made to go as far as possible;the money was now lying idle and itmight as well be used. At the same timeit was only right that he should say thatit would not make any improvement, inhis opinion, so far as approaching thejetty was concerned for berthing steamers.

MR. YN: Will the bon. gentlemansay what he thinks would be the probablecost of the work ?

Tan DIRECTOR OF PUBLICWORKS (Hon. T. A. Wright): It willhave to be supplemented by another£3,000 or £4,000.

MR. SHOILL I understand that someof this money has been reappropriated P

THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLICWORKS (Hon. 3. A. Wright): No.

MR. SHOLL: It has been spent inpaying Sir John Coode for examining theharbor,-which is not extending the jetty.

THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLICWORKS (Hon. 3. A. Wright): The bon.member has been misinformed.

MR. SHOLL: Well, it is clear thatsome of it has been spent, and I thinkthe original amount should be made up.When we take into consideration theimportance of Champion Bay, I think itis only fair that the port should havedecent jetty aeconuodation.

THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLICWORKS (Hon. J. A. Wright): When I

said just now that the hon. member badbeen misinformed, I meant that he hadbeen misinformed as to any portion ofthis money having been mnisappropriated.Sir John Coode was asked to go up toGeraldton at the special request of thepeople of the town, and their then repre-sentative in this Rouse, for the purposeof reporting upon the best site for thisjetty, and the best method of spendingthe money; and, very properly, his ex-penses wvere charged to this sum. Hemade drawings and plans of the jetty aslie purposed having it carried out; butthe funds available would not admit ofthe work being undertaken.

ME. BURT said it appeared from whatthe Director of Public Works said thatit would be no use extending this jettyunless they could do so to an extent thatwould enable the steamers to come along-side. He would suggest that the moneybe spent in dredging the approach to thejetty. He thought the time had comewhen the Government should seriouslyconsider the desirability of obtaining asea-going dredge for the use of these out-lying ports; he believed it would be asaving in the end: the amounts spent onjetties and jetty extensions really weresomething alarming. He believed thatthe amounts spent in this way during thelast fifteen years would have bought*half a dozen dredges.*Motion put and passed.

The House adjourned at a quarter pastfive o'clock, p.m.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL,Wednesday, 17th April, 1889.

Petition from He,. W. Tnit-Mes. Harper andHackett's Petition: Personn Explnatioz,-Me.

sae(o. 19) - Constitution Bill-Karri Piles inSouthJetty, Frenntle-Adjonrament.

TaE SPEAKER took the Chair atseven o'clock, p.m.

PRAES.

PETITION.

THE COMMWISSIONER OF CROWNLANiDS (Hon. J. Forrest) said he had

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.37

had a petition forwarded. to him by the MESSAGE (No. 10): CONSTITUTION BILLRev. W. Tait to present to the House. -1TE7HETR TELEGRAM FROM SECRE-It appeared to be couched in terms that MTS. PSTT STOAEDwere not disrespetful to the House, and MNS

the prayer of the petitioner was that Tar SPE AKR announced the receiptthe House would afford him the only of the following Message from His Excel.means he had to clear his character from lency the Governor:certain cruel and unfounded allegations. "The Governor has the honor to in.He knew nothing of Mr. Tait or his "fornm the Honorable the Legislativeallegations himself; but the terms of the "Counci that, on1 the 15th instant, liepetition seemed in no way disrespectful "comnctdfrhra olwbto the House. "telegraph, with the Right Honorable

"the Secretary of State respecting theThe petition was laid on the table. "Constitution Bill:-

"'IReferring to -your telegram of"6th April, Legislative Council in-"sist on amendments two, three,

MESSRS. HARPER & HACKETT'S PETb- "four, Prorogation 18th AprilTION. PERSONAL EXPLANATION, "'unless business from you."'

"The Governor has this day receivedMR. A. FORREST: Sir-I wish to "the following reply, dated the 16th

moake a personal statement with reference " instant, from Lord Knutsford:to what the bon. member for Gascoyne "' Amendments two, three, four.said in the Rouse yesterday,-that he was "'Must adhere to previous replies inpresent when the conversation between "' these cases. In order to enableMr. Hackett and myself, as given by me "'introduction Imperial Parliamentin evidence before the Executive Council, "'this Session, better not proroguetook place. I desire . to say that I have "'till points at issue have been set-no recollection of the conversation referred "'tled as required."'to by the hon. member, and it certainly "In, consequence of the above telegram,is not the one to which I refer in my "the Governor requests Your Honorableevidence. That conversation took place, "House to further consider the followingoutside my office, and shortly afterwards "amendmients to the Constitution BillI informed the Commissioner of Crown "1contained in Message No. 13.Lands that it was a fortunate thing for "(i.) Clause 69, line S :-The wordsthe West Australia& 'that I was not called, " 'eight thousand four hundred' toas my evidence would have been dis- " be omitted, and the words ' nineastrous to them. I call upon the Corn- " thousand eight hundred and fifty'missioner of Crown Lands to say whether " inserted in lieu thereof.I did not some years ago, and at the time 1(z) Clause 76, line 11 :-All thethe statement was made to me, corn- "words after the word ' repealed' tomunicate the same to him. I make this "be omitted.statement as it may appear to hon. mem- "(3.) Schedule B1:-The sums namedhers that the whole affair was one of Mr. "to be altered as follows:Hackett's jokes, backed up by the speech "£3,000 to £4,000of the hon. member for Gascoyne, yester- £200 to £0250day. "£1,000 to £1,200

Tan COMMISSIONER OF CROWN "£700 to £900LANDS (Hon. J. Forrest) : Being ap- "£28,400 to £9,850pealed to, I may say that what the hon. "(4.) Schedule _D :-The sums namedmember says is perfectly correct,-he "to be altered as followsdid inform me of the conversation he "£300 to £4M0refers to. I have often informed Mr. "£X2,050 to £2,150Hackett myself of this statement, and "If amendment No. 2 be made in thetold him it was very lucky for him that "Bill,' amendment No. 9 proposed in thethe hon. member for Kimberley was not "Governor's Message No. 18, of the 15thcalled as a witness at the,* trial; and Air. ".instant, is of counrse ulnneciessary.Hackett never denied it. ~'The Governor is of opinion that the

4337

338 ~PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [P.1

Colony will gain much more than it will"lose by accepting the Secretary of State's"amendments.

"1As regards the Crown lands South of"latitude 26, the Legislature practically

has the control of them already, and"circumstances render it quite impossible,"in the Governor's opinion, that any

"retrograde policy shoud be initiated"under Responsible Government.

"Added to this, the Secretary of State"has declared that the intention is that"the Legislature shall completely control"these lands.

" The general interests of the Colony"seem to render it highly advisable"that Lord Knutsford's decision should"now be accepted, in order that Respon-"sible Government may be established"without delay.

"The Governor expresses this opinion"with the greater freedom, as he has"hitherto supported to the Secretary of"State the views of the Legislature.

" Government House, 17th April,

KAflI PILES USED IN SOUTH JETTY,FREMANTLE.

Mna. PATERSON asked the Directorof Public Works whether he bad causedany inspection or examination to be madeof the karri piles used in the construc-tion and erection of the South Jetty atFremantle, with a view of ascertainingwhether such piles had suffered from theravages of the ieredo navaho6; and, if so,what bad been the result of such inspec-tion or examination ? He -noticed fromHfansard that when the vote was takenfor extending the jetty last year thequestion of employing karri in buildingthe jetty was discussed; and the atten-tion of the Director of Public Workswas called to the doubtful character ofkarri for such work. He noticed that theDirector of Public Works said that " inorder to test the question he was havingexperiments and notes taken in all newworks that were undertaken; and, in thelast extension of the jetty at Fremantle,both karri and jarrab piles were drivenside by side, and they had been carefullymarked and recorded, so that here weshould be able immediately to have areliable comparison." He now wishedto know what the result of this test ex-

periment had been. He felt sure, him-self, from his knowledge of karri, that itwas a mistake to employ it in works likethese; and he felt convinced in his ownmind that in the course of seven yearsthese piles would have to be renewed.

THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLICWORKS (Hon. J. A. Wright) repliedthat a periodical examination was madeof all the piles used in the jetties atFremantle, and there were no signs re-ported of their having suffered from theravages of the teredo navalis.

CONSTITUTION BILL: MESSAGES (No.1$ and No. 19.)

Tias COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon.Sir MV. Fraser): In rising to move theconsideration of these two Messages, Iam not aware that it is necessary for meto detain the House at auy length, as thesame questions have already been beforethe House on two or three previous oc-casions this session. I would ask mem-bers, however, to reflect upon this fact:.the bill that was before the country atthe late general election-the bill uponwhich members went to their conlstuesand upon which they were returned tothis House-contained nprovision forvesting the control of the lns in theLegislature. The bill was silent on thatpoint, and the schedules were in theform they arc now brought forward againby the Government at the request of theSecretary of State; therefore, it cannotbe said that members are fettered in anyway in their action so far as these ques-tions are concerned by any pledges they

may have given their constituents. Ihope members 'will bear that ini mind.The bill upon which the country has ex-pressd an opinion had no proviso in itas to the control of the land, nor was thatquestion touched upon that I am aware ofat the late election. It is a new idea whichhas been introduced in the course of thepassage of the bill through the House.I hope members will ponder ever thatfact, and also over the fact that theamounts which appeared in these sched-ides were on the scale which the Houseis stilf asked to vote them. It cannot,therefore, be said that the country has inany -way taken exception to these sched-ules or to the fact that the bill containedno provision vesting the lands in the

338 [APL. 17

1889.] PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.89

Legislature. I hope the Rouse upon acareful reconsideration of the whole sub-ject and in view of these latter telegramsfrom the Secretary of State will be pre-paired to agree to the amendments 'whichI am again directed to bring before it.The latest of these communications onlyreached the Governor to-day, and it wilbe seen that the Secretary of State saysvery plainly that his intention is to givethe colonial Legislature full control ofthe lands south of Latitude 26g. The'question now is whether members areprepared to accept this assurance and toagree to these amiendments so thtthebill may go Home, and the new Constitu-tion brought into a safe and peacefulhaven; or whether members are preparedto send the bill Home to be tossed abouton the troubled waters of the House ofCommons, with no one to guide it to asafe harbor,-for we may rest assuredthat if we persist in alienating the sym-pathies of the Secretary of State, the billwill enter upon very troublous times whenit gets exposed to the attacks of the Im-perial Parliament and of the Home press.I ask the House to ponder well beforerejecting these amendments.

Amendments 1 to 8, in Message No. 18(vide p. 299 ante) were agreed to subsizenfio.

Mit. PARKER: The next amendmentwe have to consider is that relating tothe Civil List. In Message No. 19,just received, we are asked again toincrease the amount specifed in Clause69 from £8,400 to £9,850; or, in otherwords, to increase the Governor's salaryto.£4,000, the salary of the Clerk of theExecutive from £200 to £250, the salaryof the Chief Justice from £1,000 to£1,200, and the salary of the PuianeJudge from £700 to £900. So far as Iam concerned, if we had any assurancethat we Should have onr own way asregards the control of the land, I shouldbe very glad. to give way in the matter ofthese schedules. But what we have tolook 4 is this: whether by giving wayon these points we should. not weaken ourposition as regards the main point of all.The Secretary of State might be led tobelieve that as we had given way onthese points, he had only to persist alittle longer to induce US to give way onall. I feel that if the Crown is preparedto give us the entire control of the lands,

we might give in on the question of theCivil List, and accept the amendmentsnow suggested, as to the salaries. Ithink the Crown has a perfect right tolook to us to grant Her Majesty such a,Civil List as she may fairly expect, if onthe other hand the Crown consents togive us the lands. If we were certain ofobtaining the right to control the wastelands south of the 26th parallel, I do notthink we need offer any strenuous opposi-tion to the proposal now before us, orto the small increase in the AttorneyGeneral's pension. But what I am verysorry to observe in this last telegraphicdespatch from the Secretary of State isthat Lord Knntsford apparently placesall these amendments on the same footing.He does not make any distinction betweenthe Attorney General's £2100 and thequestion of the control of the Crownlands. He says; "Amendments 2, 3, 4,-must adhere to previous replies inthese cases." No. 2 deal s with the land;No. S with the Civil List; and No. 4with the Attorney General's pension. Ifhe had said " I cannot consent to S and 4,but I will ask Her Majesty to considerNo. 2," I should not have thought somuch about it; but he lumps them all to-gether, and insists on adhering to hisprevious decision in respect to the three.Why should we give way on all thesepoints when the Secretary of State de-Clines to give way on any of them ? Ifwe were to give in on the question of theCivil List, the Secretary of State wouldstill adhere to his decision as to thelands. I think the telegram which theGovernor received last week, in reply tohis question whether the Secretary ofState intended to give us complete con-trol of the lands south of Latitude 26' didplace a somewhat different complexion onthe position of the colony as regards theland question. It will be rememberedthat the Secretary of State first proposedto vest the land in the Legislature by anAct in the usual way. Then, apparently,ho changed his mind, and said he pro-posed to eave in force the statute 18thand 19th Vict., cap. 56, and to delegateto us his powers over the lands by regu-lation. To my mind the Secretary ofState would have no power to do that, nopower to delegate to another a powerwhich Her Majesty had delegated to him,as one of Her Principal Secretaries of

1889.] 389

'34 P&RLIAMXINTARY DEBATES. [APL. 17

State. We all know, or at any rate we Secretary of State and ourselves to onelawyers know, that a delegate cannot point, and to one point only, namely, thedelegate his authority; there is a very question of the land. We shall, in effect,old Latin maxim which teaches us that. tell the Secretary of State that we doTherefore, when I found that the See- not regard these other points of suchretary of State proposed to give us paramount importance as we do the landthe control of the lands in that way, question, and, sooner than persist in de-I saw at once that it would be necessary dining to give way to him on those points,to have an Act of Parliament before he we will show him that we are preparedcould do it; he would require statutory to sacrifice all minor points for the sakeauthority. That was the reason why of securing the point which we regardthis proviso was inserted in the Consti- of supreme importance. Having donetution Bill. But it appears from this that I think we may fairly expect thetelegram of the 13th April that the Sec- Secretary of State to yield to our wishesretary of State is not in a, position to on that point. I cannot help thinkingundertake that he will be able to get the that if the matter goes Home in thatImperial Parliament to pass such an light it will strengthen our position veryAct, He is not prepared to pledge him- much in regard to 0the land. On theself to anything; he does not know, he other hand ithe b I goes Home as itsays, what modifications Parliament may stands, and we refuse to amend thesemake. So that virtually we have come schedules any more than amend the clauseto this: if we pass this bill without the relating to the land, the Secretary of Stateproviso in the 76th Clause, and trusting will say "These people seem to care assimply to the assurance of the Secretary much about a few hundred pounds as theyof State, or rather his good intentions, do about the lands; they can't be verywe may find ourselves with a Oonstitni- earnest in their desire to have the con-tion under which we should have no trol of the lands, when they won't agreemore control over the Crown lands than to increase the Civil List by a few hun-we have at the present moment. No dred pounds, or would sooner go withoutdoubt the intentions of the Secretary of their Constitution than give their At-State are good enough; but he tells us torney General an extra £4100 a yearplaiy in this telegram that he cannot retiring allowance." That is the viewundertake to say that the House of omn- which the Secretary of State may takejuons will allow him to carry out his in- of the matter if we refuse to give way ontentions. In fact we have nothing de- any of these points. I cannot help think-finite about the subject at all now. Such ing wre would be in a far better positionbeing the case, it is very doubtful to my to fight for our rights as regards thewind whether we woldd be justified in land, if, in deference to the Secretarygiving way on any of these points, and of State's desire, we cousented to acceptwvhether by doing so we should not be these other amendments of his. Mem-weakening onr position very much. At bars onl this side of the House have notthe same time, I feel that in all negotia- had an opportunity of discussing thistions between parties it is advisable, if matter in the light of this last Mes-possible, to come to some compromise. sage, and I am speaking now withoutIn all diplomatic negotiations compro- any means of arriving at what may bemnise is an element usually resorted to, in the general feeling amongst members,order to arrive at a settlement of a and of course I am. speaking without anyquestion that will be mutually accept- authority and simply expressing my ownable; and I have made up my mind in individual opinion. But having carefullythis case to act on that diplomatic prin- considered this matter, the light I look atciple. While I am not prepared to give it in is this: if we class these questions,way at all on the question of the con- the question of the land, the question oftrol of the lands, I am prepared to agree increasing these salaries, and the ques-to these other amendments, as regards tion of an extra £2100 to the Attorneythe Civil List and the Attorney Gene- General,-if we class these quest-ions inral's pension. I feel that in doing that the same category, and refuse to yield onwe shall be in this position; we shall Iany of them, the Secretary of State mayreduce the points in dispute between the come to the conclusion that we really

1889.] PARLIAMVENTARY DEBATES. 341

think as much of a paltry .2100 as we doof the waste lands, and that we really donot deserve to get the control of ourlands. Therefore, I am prepared, ratherthan that, to give way as to the schedules

and t rly adhere to the land; andlet the fSecretary of State clearly under-stand that we are not prepared to acceptResponsible Governmnat at all unless thesole control of the land is vested in theLegislature of the colony. Of course Ido not mnean the lands of the wholecolony, but the lands south of the 26thparallel. I think it would be wise togive way as to that boundary, and substi-tute the 26th parallel in lieu of the tropicof Capricorn. I know it may be said weare hastening over this matter, and per-haps it may be said that we are a littleinconsistent in altering a decision thatwe only arrived at a few days ago. ButI ask members to bear in mind that Ilook upon this as a compromise; and Ithink it would be unwise on our part toplace all these matters in the samne cate-gory, and treat them as if we regardedthem of equal importance.' I think thatwould be a mistake, a tactical mistake.

MR. A. FORREST: I think it is apithat the hon. member for Sussex

hd not make this speech the other night.I think we ought to have given way onthis question a week ago. I understoodthat a majority' agreed to do so, butafterwards they agreed to stick out forthe whole lot, or none. If the hon. mem-ber had made the speech he did to-nighta week ago this question would havebeen reduced to this one point, which isthe only point we really care about-theland. If we expect to get the land wemust be prepared to give something inreturn for it, and the least we can do isto give way on this Civil List question.I think it would show very bad feelingon our part, and cause a very bad im-pression to go abroad, if it went forththat we refused to take ResponsibleGovernment, for the sake of £1,500. Itis impossible for the colony to go on asit has been. Every man in the colonywill have to leave it, for we shall not beable to carry on at all, if things goon as they have done during the lastyear or two; not a single public workgoing on, and everything at a standstill.A colony like this, with resources likeours, cannot possibly get along with-

out borrowing money. I appeal tomnem-hers around me whether the depressionof the past twelve months has not beensomething that never was known in thehistory of the colony. [Mr. RICARD-SON: Nonsense.] I think if the lion.member were to ask those connected withour financial institutions they would tellhim a different tale. [Mr. RicHARD-SON: Over-speculation.] Not at all.

P eople have had nothing to speculatewth. I hope the House will agree to

grant this Civil List, and let the Secre-tary of State see that we are not anunreasonable lot of people; but that weexpect him to give way on the land ques-tion. If we stick out any longer theSecretary of State may get tired of argu-ing with us, and we may have to wait along time before we get ResponsibleGovernment at all. I don't know -whatwe are going to do then; I know theGovernment cannot be carried on anylonger under this Constitution. TheGovernor himself has told us that.

MR. SCOTT: I would gladly accedeto what the hon. member for Sussex hassaid, and give in on these schedules, ifI thought there was the slightest chanceof its having the desired effect. Butwhen I read this telegram placed beforeus to-day, it seems to me that it will makeno difference whether we give way onthis point or not. The Secretary of Statetells us plainly that anything he may dofor us is subject to any modification thatthe Imperial Parliament may make inthe bill; and it appears to me that thevery point in which they are likely tomake any modification will be as regardsthe land. They will not trouble them-selves about these salaries or pensions.It appears to me perfectly useless toappeal to the Secretary of State and sayto him, we have given in on these pointsand we expect you to give in on the landquestion. He will say at once that it didnot rest with him, and that he was quitewilling to give us what we wanted, butthat it must rest with the ImperialParliament. It seems to me that ouronly course is to treat this matter in abusiness-like way; let the bill go Home,and let the Secretary of State understandwhat we really want, instead of trying tosettle an important measure like thisby telegrams. If we cannot do it anyother way I think our proper course

342 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. EArL. 17

would be to send delegates Home torepresent our case, and to explain ourposition. If I thought for a moment thatwe could get our way as to the lands by,agreeing to this schedule, I would do soat once; but Ilam afraid there is not theslightest probability of that. I thinkthis telegram of the 13th April precludesus from harboring any such idea. There-fore, I intend to stand by my colors, andI hope the House will adhere to itsdecision.

MR. VENN: Those members whohave been fighting this Responsible Gov-erment question for the last twelve orfourteen years must feel that they have:arrived now at a very critical stage in theprogress of events. Of course it isbeyond the question to think or to dreamthat we are going to accept ResponsibleGovernment without the control of thelands. There is no occasion to labor thatquestion to-night. What we have to.consider now is whether it is wise or notto withdraw from the position we tookup the other day, in the face of theseMessages and the telegrams which havebeen placed before us, one of which Onlyreached us a few minutes ago. I thinkit is due to this Rouse and to His Excel-lency that we should take some time toconsider this question; I do not think itis absolutely necessary that we shouldcome to a decision on the subject thisvery night. We have consulted anddeliberated over this question before,and decided upon a certain course ofaction, which we agreed to in a, spirit ofcomp~romuse among ourselves. We showeda unanimous front on that occasion, andI think that unanimity of purpose andunited action must carry great weight ina, case like this. I feel satisfied if weproceed with this debate to-night, with-out any opportunity of conferring to-gether, we shall come to no nni-mous decision, nor anything like unani-mity; and, in my opinion, that wouldweaken our position and not servethe object the whole of us have in view.It may be desirable that te Houseshould be prorogued to-morrow, but itstrikes me it would be far better for theHouse to adjourn over the Easter holi-days, and meet again to settle this veryvital question, rather than that we shouldcome to any hasty decision this evening.I ama in accord with a great deal that the

hon. member for the Vasse has said: Iagree with him in this: that in allmatters of diplomacy there must be somecompromises; and we must not expect togain our own point without being pre-pared to concede something in return.But the difficulty here is that we have noassurance that by conceding these pointswe shall gain our object, the object wehave most at heart. If I thought thatby giving way on the question of the CivilList we should get a quid p-ro quo in theshape of the control of the lands, I shouldhave no hesitation at all; and I do notthink there would be any divided opinionon the subject. But we cannot feel, inthe face of the telegram of the Secretaryof State, that there is any assurance at allon the subject. Therefore, I think itwould not be sound policy on our part toyield on these points when we have noguarantee that in doing so we shall iiiany way strengthen our position as tothe main question of all. It appears tome that we should rather weaken ourposition if we yielded up the only weaponswe have left.'-

THE: COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon.Sir Mf. Fraser) : The question really be-fore the Rouse at the present moment isnot the land question, but the Civil List,and I think it would be as well if hon.members would first deal with the amend-ment that is before them. Later on theywill have an opportunity of dealing withthis other question. I may say, however,that in my opinion there is no possibilityof the Secretary of State receding from theposition he has taken up; I say so in theface of the two latest telegrams. There-fore, it seems to me that if members wishto have this bill brought before theBritish Parliament this session, it canonly be by agreeing to these amendmentswhich the Secretary of State has nowtwice told us within the last few dlays hefeels compelled to adhere to. Surelymembers cannot think that the Secretaryof State is only playing with us.

MR. LOTON: With regard to theimmediate question before us, the in-crease of this schedule, I don't think it isat all necessary to labor that question.The Colonial Secretary has just told usin plain words that the Secretary of Stateintends to hold out as regards thesepoints; but I think the only point the'House of Commons is likely to insist

1889.] PARMLA WNTARY DEBATES. 343

upon at all is the land question, and I donot think that these schedules willtrouble the Imperial Parliament at all.I cannot think that even the Secretaryof State would refuse to grant us Respon-sible Government for the sake of a fewhundred pounds more or less added to theCivil List, or for the sake of an extra ,21OOto the Attorney General. Therefore, Ithink we need not waste much time overthese two points. The only point uponwhich the Imperial Parliament will setany store will be the control of the land.I think if we look at this matter of theCivil List from one point of view themother country will be rather inclined toapplaud our action in being as economicalas possible, now that we are about totake upon ourselves the managementof our own affairs. Any parent seeinghis offspring exercising a little careand economy on first launching out onits own account in the world would berather pleased than otherwise. There isanother point to be borne in mind: wehave not attempted in any way to reducepresent salaries; we simply say that atthe present moment we do not see ourway clear to increase them. No doubtwe shall have to do so before long afterentering upon Responsible Government;but we do not wish to pledge ourselvesat this time. But, as I said, I do notthink that this matter will affect theSecretary of State much, and I think thebest thing we can do is to address our-selves to this other question, the landquestion. I have no intention, myself,and I believe that in saying so I amrepresenting the views of those who sentme here-I have no intention, myself, tobe a party to accepting ResponsibleGovernment for this colony unless weals have the control of the Crown lands.'Unless we can get the two together, formy part I should prefer to go withouteither. I do not believe in having aConstitution rammed down my throat,whether I like it or not. I am preparednow to vote on this question exactly inthe same way as I voted a few days ago,unless I hear very strong arguments toshow me that I was wrong in voting as Idid. I mean to swallow the whole bill,holus bolus, like the hon. member forKimberley, or none at all.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon.C. N. Warton) : The hion. member who

has just sat down seems to be utterlyregardless of consequences; he is pre-pared to swallow the whole bill as itstands, whatever result may happen. Ofcourse the hion. member is at liberty toswallow what he likes; but as to theparticular form in which this land ques-tion should be swallowed, I think theHouse would be safe in accepting whatthe Secretary of State offers. We haveit on the word of a gentleman thatit is his intention to give us thecontrol of the land, and we also haveit that he will not be able to introducethis bill this session into the ImperialParliament unless it is sent Homeat once, and in the form already ap-proved by Her Majesty's Government.In his last telegram he says so, in somany words: "In order to enable in-"'troduction Imperial Parliament this"session, better not prorogue till points"at issue have been settled as required."Even without that telegram those of uswho are acquainted with the usual du-ration of the sessions of the ImperialParliament, and with the business of theHouse of Commons, know very well thatthere is no time to spare if this bill is togo Home in time for introduction duringthe present session. If this House wereto send this bill Home a fortnight hence,and a delegate to represent it-if we sentfifty delegates, each with a copy of thebill in his hand-they would arrive tAolate to get the bill passed this session.Time is the very essence of the contract.The Rouse may take my word for it-Idare say I shall not be believed by somemembers, though I have said manythings that have come true afterwards,and it will come true about this bill-if members delay the passing of the billanother week, if they do not agree towhat Lord Xnutsford now says for thethird time, this bill will not reach theRouse of Commons in time to be dealtwith this session. [Mr. BuRT: Boo-oo 1]Inarticulate sound is not argument. Itmay be with the lower anials, but itdoes not impress my mind at all. It isnot an argument to a sentient being. Ifthe Secretary of State had wished to hetricky, or disingenuous--if anyone couldimagine it -if Lord Knutsford hadwished to deceive this House, would hehave answered this telegram sent tohim by the Governor, in the way he

344 ~PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.[AL '

did? The Governor asks him: " WillLegislature completely control landssouth Latitude 2V ? " If the Secretaryof State had wished to mislead us in anyway, he would have simply answered," Yes, certainly." But he does not dothat; he says, in effect, '1 Such is myintention, but 1 cannot control Parlia-ment; no one can say -what Parliamentmay do, but my intentions are as stated."My own opinion is this: members mayrest satisfied, they are as perfectly sureof having the control of the lands southof Latitude 26', as of anything that canpossibly happen. I agree with the prin-ciple of law referred to by the hon. andlearned memiber for the Vasse, that adelegate cannot delegate his authority;and if this was an notion at law it mighthave to be decided upon that principle.No doubt it is a nice technical point, butwho is going to raise it? Who isgonto challenge the fight of the Secretary ofState to do what he proposes to do?Both parties to the contract agreeing,who isFgoing to say to the Secretary ofState, "Yu have not that power ?"There is no other party before the court,no other person -who has a6 right to dis-pute the power, or who is entitled tocomplain. To argue that any contractmade by virtue of this authority wouldbe set aside by any Secretary of Statewho may succeed the present one is mere-ly to fight a. shadow. The question ofhow Lord Knutsford proposes to redeemhis promise need not trouble this House,-whether be will do it by means of abill which would afford an opportunityfor a number of chatter-boxes in theHouse of Commons to air their pettheories, or whether he does it in whathe may consider a more prudent way, bymeans of a, regulation (whether strictlyright or not),-who is to complain, solong as the thing is done? The Secretaryof State is simply anxious to do what wewant in the way that is most likely tosucceed. There must be somne compro-mise in negotiations of this nature; wemust give and take. Has not LordKnutsford given way already ?

MnR. BURT: In nothing.Mu. MARNION;- Nothing at all.THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Ho.

C. N. Warton) : Was he not in favor ofa nominated Upper House, and did henot give way on that? H as he not

agreed to other amendments we havemade, the -widening of the franchise andthe duration of Parliament. But thereare members who will persist in mis-trusting him, and to embitter, if theypossibly can, the feelings of this colonyagainst the Home Government, and ofthe Home Government against thiscolony. They may possibly succeed; butit is not loyal; it is not a patrioticcourse to take. I am speaking now as asettler, as one taking an interest in thecolony. I have no constituents to fear.I have no interest to serve in this mat-ter ; my advice, humble as it is, is dis-interested.

MR. MALRMTON: With regard towhich questionF

THRE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon.C.N, Warton): With regard to the

whole question. If this bill does not goHome at once it will not pass this ses-sion. Even if it is sent Home at once, itwill not have a day to spare. We knowthe congested state of the work' in theHouse of Commons; we know there arefinancial questions to settle ; the questionof the naval defences; the ever recurringIrish question; the Scotch Local Gov-ernment Bill, and a lot of other ques-tions pressing for settlement; so that itwill be a great struggle to get the Royal1assent to this bill, dto what we will,before August.

Mn. MABMION: I agree with thehon. and learned gentleman as to thedesirability of early action, and, if mem-bers are of my opinion they will not hesi-tate in the slightest degree as to theiraction in regard to the land question.,simply because of a telegram,

Tan ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon.C. N. Wartonu): Not one telegram.

MRs. M.ARMION: I don't care howmany telegrams. We are bound, I takeit, unless we acquiesce, to adhere to ourprevious decision, and stick to ourcolors, on this land question. We arebound to see that within the flour cornersof this bill we shall state exactly what wewant in regard to the land. I cannotunderstand such sophistry, such r-idicu-lous argument, as is put forward fromthe Government benches on this subject;including the arguments of the Commis-sioner of Crown Lands. They talk ofthe desire of the Secretary of State to doeverything he has promised. If he has

M [ APL. 17

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.34

the desire to do so, why does he not do it adjourn this debate until next week, soinfthis bill? What does it matter to hint as to give am~ple time to members to eon.whether it is dlone in this bill or in any sider the position, and for the Executiveother way, if he is Anxious to have the to consider their position, and amplething dlone at allP It seems to me all time for the Governor to communicatenonsense to talk about the bill not pass- with the Secretary of State concerninging because of this proviso as to the land, the position. Let it be thoroughly under-or because the Civil List is not increased. stood that this House intends to adhereIt is simply a bogie set up to try and to the position it has taken up asfrighten us. The Government has done to the land, and that there are no signsall it can to frighten us into lpassing this of wavering or hesitancy on our part, andbill as they want to see it passed. The I venture to say that even so strong-Attorney General says he has ito cousti- hacked a gentleman as the Secretary oftuents to be frightened of. No. The State for the Colonies may think it in thehon. gentleman and his confreres occupy interest-I won't say of the Empire, buta different position from that occupied of this part of the Empire-that beby those on this side of the House. As should give way. I think the membershe says, they have no constituents to of the Executive in this House mightserve, they have not the interests of the assist the Governor in strengthening ourcountry to consider in this matter. They position; I think they might assist theare simply answerable to the Secretary colony that is inclined to deal liberallyof State. We are answerable to the with them at the end of their officialcountry. We are answerable to the career, assist it by strengthening thepeople of the colony, as their representa- hands of the Governor in briniging press-tives ; and we are not going to sell their umc to bear upon the Secretary of State,patrimony for a mess of pottage. With so as to induce him to give us what allreference to the paltry pension question, the other colonies obtained when theyand the Civil List, I don't care that adopted Responsible Government,-themuch (a snap of the finger) for them: I power to deal with their lands. As tonever dlid. I have simply been con- the boundary line, if the Secretary ofstrained by force of circumstances to go State insists on the 26th parallel of lati-with the majority on that question, so as hide I should be inclined to give way onto obtain a strong majority, a unanimous that point, though I still think the tropicvote, on the great question of the laud, of Capricorn is the more scientific andPersonally, I never thought anything most desirable division line. At the sameabout these two schedules, as compared time I do not think the question is ofwith the other question. I have alwa ys sufficient importance to fight about it.been in favor of giving a liberal pension What we want to secure is the control ofto old public officers, and a liberal Civil our lands, and to have it provided forList; I'm not afraid of a few paltry him- within the four corners of this bill. Itisdred pounds when put in the balance aill very well to say that the House ofagainst the rights and privileges of self- Commons will not be able to deal withgovernment. At the same time we must this bill unless we pass it to-night.be consistent to a certain extent, so far What have we to do with that? If theyas it is possible to be so in the interests won't pass the bill this session, let themof the colony. In this case my inclina pass it next session, rather than wetion would be to fight the Secretary of should sacrifice the interests of the colonyState tooth and nail; and the only reason Iby accepting these amendments, in orderwhy I hesitate at all about it is, whether! that the House may be prorogued to-it would be in the interest of the colony morrow.to do so. If I thought for a momentthat by giving way on this Civil List qus POINT OF ORDER.tion we should gain our point as regards,the land, I should do so without hesita- MR. BURT: I wish to ask the Speak-tion; and I believe that is the feeling of er's ruling on a point of order. A similarthe majority, if not all, of the members'1 amendment to this was sent down by theon this side of the House. I believe, my- 1Governor a few days ago, and the Houseself, that the best thing we can do is to came to a decision upon it; I wish to ask

345

346 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [APL. 17

whether it is competent for the Governorto send down twice, I won't say in oneweek, but in the same session, an amend-ment upon which the House has alreadypronounced an opinion?

Mn. SPEAKER: I have consideredthis point, but there is- nothing verymuch to guide one as to what the Gover-nor can do in the way of sending Mes-

sgs for the consideration of the House.The Imperial Act say' s it is competentfor the Governor to send for the con-sideration of the Council ay such lawsas it may appear to him desirable to in-troduce, or any amendments, but it doesnot say whether be may send the samebill down twice for the same amendment.

MR. BURT: I should say that if hecan send it down twice he can send itdown five hundred times; and are we tostop here while the Governor is bandyingtelegraims backward and forward withthe Secretary of State ? It is not to betolerated. *We might he kept here formonths over the same question.

ME. SPEAKER: There is a greatdeal of force in the lion, member's argu-ment as to the number of times a Mes-sage may be sent down, and, no doubt, itwould be very inconvenient, as he says.Still I am not aware that there is any-thing to guide me in ruling to the con-trary.

MR. BURT: To me it appears nothingelse but laughable to have the sameamendment twice within a6 week, withoutany fresh argument brought to bear.What is the reason that we are asked togo back from a decision twice arrived atalready? We are asked simply toturn round, day after dlay, withoutany reason assigned. I suppose someof us are proceeding on some principle;and, if no fresh arguments are broughtforward, why should we retire from aposition we have twice taken up ? Whatdoes this telegram say ?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon.C. N. Warton): That is the new argu-ment.

ME. BURT: What does it say?"Must adhere to previous replies. " Isthat any argument?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon.C. N. Warton): Read on. " In order toenable introduction Imperial Parliamentthis session, better not prorogue." Afresh argument.

MR. BURT: Really it is amusing tohear the arguments of the AttorneyGeneral. The Secretary of State says," Better not prorogue til points at issuehave been settled as required." As re-quired by whom? What does it mean?Does the Secretary of State mean to tellus that we are not to prorogue until weassent to the points he requires ? I say,no. The Secretary of State is not theman to say that; the Secretary of Statewould not say that to any deliberativeAssembly. And certainly he would nottelegraph out to say that we are not toprorogue until we settle these points aswe ourselves require. That would benonsense. Here we have another unin-telligible telegram. I challenge the Gov-ernment bench again, as I dlid the othernight, to explain what the Secretary ofState means. What is our position?We passed this bill after a great deal ofdebate and a great deal of thought;and these amendments were introducedafter serious deliberation. We passedthe bill through all its stages, and we allthought it would go to England in theusual constitutional way, there to bedealt with by the Imperial authorities,as other Constitution Bills, from othercolonies, bad been dealt with. Instead ofthat the Governor commences what I ven-ture to say nobody in this House at thetime thought of. His Excellency, appar-ently, having the right to telegraph freely,by favor of Sir John Fender, sends a longtelegram to the Secretary of State, jubi-lant at the idea that the bill had passed,with so few amendments, and praisingthe House for its loyalty, and saying thatall that was now required was the assentof the Imperial Parliament. Then camethe Secretary of State's turn, and we getinto a vortex of telegrams, the burden ofwhich is that the Secretary of State ad-heres to his previous decision. Insteadof the bill being well on its way Rome,as we thought it would have been, we areconfronted day after day with unintel-ligible telegrams from the Secretary ofState. The bill, I say, ought to be onits way Home now, for the Imperial Par-liament to deal with it. If they won'tgive us the land, we shall know wherewe are. We know nothing now. If theyinsist upon a larger Civil List, or considerthat we have not dealt equitably withanybody, they will tell us so; but now

PARLIANINTARY DEBATIES. 4

we know nothing about it. The same Ithat the Secretary of State thoughtwith the land question. It is said that nothing of it, comparativelyP We offerthe Secretary of State has promised to a Civil List equal to existing salaries;let us have the laud, and the Commis- surely that is fair and equitable, andstoner of Crown Lands is never tired of just to all parties. Why should we betelling us that the Secretary of State will called upon to increase the Governor'sperform his promise. What do we say? salary and the Judges' salaries simplyWe say that the Secretary of State cannot because we are to have another forn offulifil his promise in the way it has been GovernmentP What is the sudden ne-suggested. We say it is for the In- cessity for increasing these salariespenial Parliament to give us this power at this particular moment? I votedover the lands. We say that it rests for increasing the salary of the Governorwith the Imperial Parliament. And myself; but the House decided otherwisenow we find the Secretary of State, him- twice, and it does seem to me puerile toself, saying exactly the same thing. He go to another division on the samesays his intentions are as stated, but that subject, when no fresh argument is sug-he cannot undertake that Parliament gested for reversing our decision. Thewill not make some modifications. He same with the pension schedule, or rathersays, 'I intend to do all I can to carry the Attorney General's pension,-for thatout my promise, but, mind you, there is is what it means; what is the use of askingthe Imperial Parliament to be reckoned us to go to a division again on that ques-with.' tion? It seems to me childish. If we

THE COMMISSIONER OF CROWN give way on the schedules, what assur-LANDS (Hon. J. Forrest): What more ance have we that the Secretary of Statedo you want? will yield one iota about the land?

MR. BURT: I don't know whether Further than that,-he can't. Let us gothe hon. gentleman thinks we are a set honestly and openly and boldly to Perlia-of fools, or not. He says, "~What more ment; and, if they say they are notdo you want ;" when the Secretary of prepared to give us what we want, weState, himself, tells us that he cannot say shall know where we are;i we shall knowwhat the Imperial Parliament may do; whether to accept the compromise or not.they may give us the land, or they may At present we have no grounds at all tonot. But the Commissioner asks, " What go upon except these unintelligible tele-more do you want ?" The Governor gram. I want to see the bill itself gonever asked anything about the Imperial Home, to be considered by the CabinetParliament. He simply asked the Secre- sand by Parliament; and if we cannot gettary of State, "Will the Legislature corn- all we want, we shall know the reasonpletely control lands south of Latitude why, and it will he time enough then to26o." The Secretary of State says that so give wa.What is the use of going tofar as he is concerned, it will; but, he anotherdivision this evening?adds, it is for Parliament and not for me MR. MARMITON: Move the adjourn-to say. That is what I say. The ques- ment.dion of the land is bound to go to the MR. BERT: No; I am against anyImperial Parliament. What is the use adjournment. We are well seized ofof going on telegraphing backwards and this matter, and may as well decide itforwards, day after day, when we know this evening. We have already giventhat the question will have to be settled way to the Secretary of State on severalby Parliament? That is the reason this points, and one would have expectedproviso was put in the bill. What is the he would have met us in the same spirituse of dividing this House over and over of compromise. But we get no thanksagain on these questions ? Not a word nor recognition from him whatever.of additional argument is used. I think, As soon as we give in on one point, upmyself, thtti ii iti h ml- comes another; and so we go on. It

est uesionof all, and I believe the is perfectly laughable. One day the Ex-Secretary of State would give way on ecutive bench try to jockey us out of ourthis in a moment. Why then should position; another day they try to terrifywe he so eager to increase this sche- us. But it is always the same ques-dule, when we may find afterwards tion; the same old Civil List question;

247

348 ~PRIIAKMENTARY DEBATES.EAL.1

the samneold pension question; and the won't even get a hearing this session.same old land question. I have -no But are we, for the sake of a merehesitation, myself, in following the opin- chance of getting the bill introducedions I have already expressed, and in before August, to go back from the de-recording the same vote. I am sure I cision we have recorded on two divisionswould be the last member in this House already ? I hope not. While on thiswho would shut his ears to argument. point I cannot help noticing the viewsIf any new phase of the question, or any expressed and reiterated by the hon.fresh argument were put forward, I member for Kimnberley. The hon. mom-would not quarrel with our being asked ber thinks, apparently-I have come toto reconsider these points. :But when we that conclusion from what I have heardare asked to divide and divide, and him say in this House-that if we onlydivide again with positively no new give way to the Secretary of State in allground for doing so, it does seem per- these matters, and get Responsible Gov.fectly ridiculous. A, great deal is said eminent in any form, the depression inabout the bill not going through Parlia- trade, and all the evils we are said to beinent this year. Supposing it didn't? suffering from now, will vanish. ThatWe are not all going to die this year, I seems to be the idea. Let us only gethope. Who said it was going to pass this Responsible Government and a big loan,session? I have said, myself, all along, and there will be no more depression.it never had a chance of passing through The Midland Railway, I suppose, will gothe Imperial Parliament this session. Is on at once; and Responsible Governmentit not notorious that at the end of the will set us all on our feet. Give us asession bills are thrown out right and left loan and plenty, of money, and the hon.by the process known as the " slaughter of member for Kimberley would be thethe innocents ?" Even those bills men- happiest man living. All his argiumentstioned in the Queen's Speech at the open- amount to that. Do away with theing of the session have to be abandoned; present Government, raise a loan, andand no attempt is made to pass anything the colony will go ahead at once. Aexcept the bills that are not likely to be loan is at the bottom of everythingopposed. Even then, great difficulty is with the hon. member. But I woulsometimes experienced in getting them remind the hon. member that if hethrough. If this Constitutiion Bill of got Responsible Government to-miorrow,ours is going to create all the opposition there arc many things to be eon-that we are told it is from this wonder- sidered before any Ministry would rushful party in the House of Commons that in for a loan. The circumstances ofis on the look out for it, what chance is the colony, I suppose, would have toit likely to have of getting through the be considered for one thing, and itsHouse of Commons this session? But financial position, and its ability just ateven if there was a chance, are we the present moment, before things begingoing to sacrifice an important prim- to settle down, to bear any further strain;ciple for the sake of getting this bill also what scheme of public works oughtthrough Parliament this session at any to be undertaken. All those thingscost ? I hope not. We have not even would have to be considered by anybeen told that it is likely to pass, Ministry; and the hon. member mustexcept by the Attorney General, who not think that if this bill becomes lawsays unless we agree to this pension this session he is going to have a loanschedule at once 0the bill won't get next day, and the depression in trade,through the House of Commons before that he is always talking about, removed.August. The Attorney General is only THE COMMISSIONER OF CROWNspeculating; he has nothing to guide LARDS (Hon. J. Forrest): The hon.him to make that statement, and learned member for the North spoke

Tm COMMISSIONER OF CROWN rather disparagingly of the GovernimentLANDS (Hon. J. Forrest): What does the other evening; but to-night he ap.the Secretary of State's telegram say ? peais to have a hittle higher opinion of it.

MR. BURT:- The telegram does not The hon. member to-night is not preparediay it will pass; it simply says it may to sacrifice the bill for the sake of gettingnot be introduced. Inmy opinion, it Iit passed this session, and so get rid of

348 [ APL, 17

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 4

the present Government; the hon. mem-ber is quite content to let things go onas they are for some time to come, at anyrate. For my part, I cannot agree withthose who say that the present Govern.went is incapable of any further good;I believe the present form of Governmentis capable of doing a lot of work yet, if ithad the chance. If things were in thesame state as they were a year or twoago, before this agitation for a change ofGovernment came on, and the colonydrifted into its present transition state,members would findl that there was plentyof work yet in the present Government.But since this agitation for a change ofConstitution, and everything has becomeunsettled, of course the Government is toa certain extent paralysed in its actions,and there has been a disinclinationon the part of the Home Govern-ment to allow us the same latitude asbefore, in the way of borrowing money*for public works, and consequently thingsare at a standstill. That is the reason, Ithink, why His Excellency has been sourgent, as we must admit he has, inpressing upon the Home Government thedesirability of putting an end to thisstate of uncertainty, this interregnum,this intermediate stage between theabandonment of one form of Governmentand the adoption of another. The bon.member for tbe North seems to blamnethe Governor foi hastening the end of thelpresent state of affairs; he blames theGovernor for sending these telegrams tothe Secretary of State.

AIR. BURT: I blamed nobody at all;I simply said it was done.

Tin COMMISSIONER OF CROWNLANDS (Hon. J. Forrest): I think theonly inference to be drawn from the hon.member's remarks was that His Excel-lency might to have sent the bill Home asit was. I think, myself, His Excellencyexercised a very wise discretion in mak-ing use of the telegraph, and ascertain-mng, before sending the bill Hone,whether the alterations we had made init were likely to be approved by HerMajesty's Government. I think HisExcellency would not have shown thatwise discretion and that anxiety, whichmembers give himn credit for, if he hadref rained fro using the telegraph toascertain the views of the ImperialGovernment before this House was pro-

rogued. The lion, member is alwaystwitting uts with sending or receivingunintelligible telegrams, which, withthat legal ingenuity for which he isknown, he twists into no meaning. I,for my part, looking at these telegramssimply from a common sense point ofview, have no difficulty in understand-ing them.

MR. SHOLL: The hon. member hadbetter explain them.

TanE COMMISSIONER OF CROWNLARDS (Hon. J. Forrest): They areplain enough to those who wish to under-stand them. The hon. member for theNorth says the Secretary of State cannotof his own accord give us the control ofthe land. If so, I do not see the use ofopposing these amendments. The Secre-tary of State is prepared to do his bestfor us; and if he does that what morecan we askP The hon. member says hewants this bill to be placed as it is beforethe Imperial Parliament. But I presumueit will not be laced before the ImperialParliament unless it is in a form that theHome Government approve ? The Secre-tary of State will not submit it to Parlia-ment unless it is a bill he can, himself,

support. Therefore, if it goes Home as itstands, and the Secretary of State, as weknow he will, objects to these portions ofthe bill, does the hon. member think thebill will ever see the House of Commons,until it is modified to meet the views ofHer Majesty's Government? The lion.member for Fremantle says we have noconstituents to please on this bench ; dlossthe hon. member think he will be doingwhat will please his constituents by de-laying and imperilling the passage ofthis bill through the Imnperial Parlia-ment? The country at large was per-fectly satisfied with this bill as it wassent to them last session ; and thisquestion of the land was hardly evermentioned. There was not a word aboutthe land in the bill then; yet the countrywas quite satisfied; and so were memberstoo, until the hon. member for the Northbrought forward this proviso. The hon.member for Fremantle also tells us thathe~is not going to sell his country's heri-tage for a mess of pottage. Wholhas ask-edhimtosellit? Wilithecountrybeina worse position under Responsible Gov-ernment than it is now if it only gets theSsame control of the landsP I think not.

a49

350 PARIAMETARMY DEBATES. [APL. 17

The hon. member says the members of the latitude, and I think we might allow himExecutive ought to assist the Governor to do so the way he thinks best. I askto bring pressure upon the Secretary of Imembers to reflect what our positionState in this matter. Why should he would be if we sent this bill Home in asuppose that His Excellency has not been Ishape that the Secretary of State couldsupported? We knew the Governor has not give his support to it. Is it likelydone all that could possibly be done to that he is going to assist us in getting acarry out the wishes of this House; and bill passed that in his opinion ought notwhat thanks does he get for itP He is to be rassed? Is it likely that the Secre-told that he ought to have sent this bill tary of State, or Her Majesty's Govern-Home as soon as it was passed, and not inent, will make any effort to get this billtelegraphed to the Secretary of State. through the House of Commons if theyWhiat does the Governor say in this do not approve of its provisions ? TheMessage? He says this," "The Governor hon. member for the North is veryis of opinion that the colony will gain anxious to get the bill into the Housemuch more than it will lose by accepting of Commons; but I do not think hethe Secretary of State's amnendmients." would gain much by that, unless it wentThe hon. member talks about supporting there with the full weight of the supportthe Governor; why does he not follow of Her Majesty's Governent. In fact,the Governor's advice ? Why does he we know it will never reach the House ofnot do what the Governor recommends the Commons unless it is in accord with theHouse to do? The hon. member and views of Her Majesty's Government. Itother hon. members seem to treat the Gov- r will simply be sent back here for amend-ernor's advice with, I may almost say, meut. We shall have this debate allcontempt. [Cries of " No, no! "] Let over again another session. What betterme again read what His Excellency says position will we be in then than we are inon this subject in the Message we are now now ? The Governor has done all he canconsidering. He says, "As regards the in the matter. I think there is a limitCrown lands south of Latitude 26, the Ieven to His Excellency's desire to serveLegislature practically has the con- i us, and a limit, too, to the Secretary oftrol of them already, and circumstances IState's patience. After all that hasrender it quite impossible, in the Gov-. recently passed between them, I don'ternor's opinion, that any retrograde policy' think we have any right' to expect thatshould be initiated under Responsible they will go on like this. for ever. MeatL-Government. Added to this, the Ser-bers say the bill will have to be foughttary of State has declared that the inten- out in the House of Conmnons, and not intion is that the Legislature shall coin- the Colonial Office. Anyone would imag-pletely control these lands. The general mne that the Rouse of Commons was goinginterests of the colony seem to render it to devote a whole night to the considera-highly desirable that Lord Knutsford's tion of this bill; that there was going todecision should now be accepted, in order be a regular field-night over it, crowdedthat Responsible Government may be galleries, and a breathless audience; andestablished -without delay. The Gov- that we shall come off with flying colors,ernor expresses this opinion with the and get everything in the world that wegreater freedom, as he has hitherto sup- require. I must ask hon. members toported to the Secretary of State the bear in mind that there are two partiesviews of the Legislature." That is the in the House of Comm ons, and that weopinion of the Governor; why does not have to reckon with a considerablethe hon. member accept it? I think, amount of opposition, and shall1 want allmyself, if we agree to these views and the support we can get from Her Ma-accept what Her Majesty's Government jessy's Government before this bill willare offering us we are far more likely be allowed to become law. I think weto get what we require than we will by shall find that our safest course willsticking out for what I call a mere senti- he to have the Secretary of State onwent. I think the Secretary of State' our side. It is all very wll to say thathas told us, as plainly as any words can Unless we get what we want in the waydo, that he intends to give us the control we want it, we won't take the bill at all.of the land south of the 26th parallel of I am not one of those who go so far as

350

1889.] PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. 351

to say that unless we get al we will not the control of our lands in the way sug-take anything. I do not think that a gested by the Secretary of State; and: ifwise policy. I believe in accepting what* that did not suit us, it would, at anyjate,we can get, and relying upon future be a step in advance. There would beefforts to get more. I believe if we get nothing to prevent us asking for more,what the Secretary of State will be abeif we were not satisfied with what, weto obtain for us, we shall, at any rate, be Ihad. We should then ask for more, nota step nearer to getting what we want as a Crown colony, but as a sell-govern.ourselves. Every inch of ground that we in colony with free institutions. Wegain is so much nearer the goal of our' should be in a position to put forwarddesire. It is a step in advance. If this our claims with greater likelihood ofwere an ordinary business transaction, I their being recognised, and with thedo not think members would go on in cordial support of our sister colonies.this way. If they expected the other Let members pass the bill as Herparty to the negotiation to concede an Majesty's Government wish them to passadvantage, they would be prepared to it; and if they deem it necessary, letconcede something in return. If the them adopt the course proposed by thereally wished to conclude the barg ain hon. member, Sir Thomas Campbell, andand were anxious to come to terms, they address a memorial to the Secretary ofwould not say we must have all or State expressing their views on this landnothing. Why should we act on a diff,- question. Let them do that, and theyerent principle in dealing with the will have Responsible Government in theaffairs of the colony? Members have course of a few months.not shown this obstinate disposition be- MR. SHOLL: The Commissioner offore. They have shown their readiness to Crown Lands seems to me to advise us to

cmrmse, and I think, shown a wise take Responsible Government at anydiceinin doing so. We are all price. The hon, member, it seems to me,

agreed that the Secretary of State in- wants to get all he can for himself, andtends to give us the control of the lan d; then retire comfortably.why should we insist upon his doing so THE COMMISSIONER OF CROWNin the way we like, and not in his own LJANDS (Hon. X. Forrest): I said noth-wayP The hon. member for Fremantle, ing of the kind.when the Attorney General was speaking THE SPEAKER: I did not under-on this question, seemed to insinuate stand the hon. member to say so.that members on this bench were anxious MR. SHOLL: I think the hon. mem-to have this bill passed for the sake of ber is anxious to retire as gracefully asthe paltry pension it will give them. I he can, with the liberal pension provideddare say the hon. member thought he for him by this House. With regard towas very sarcastic; but may belief is that these amendments which are before usthe hon. member himself really does now a third time I may say it appearsthink more of this paltry-I do not say to me that there is a great deal in whatpaltry in an offensive way; I consider the hon. member for the North said, thatthe House has behaved very handsomely it is not right we should be asked toin the matter of these pensions, on the express an opinion on the same questionwhole--but I really do think some hon. over and over again. I did not under-members think more about these sched- stand Your Honor to rule that it was intiles than they do of all the other clauses accordance with parliamentary practice,in the bill; I believe the hon. member or that the Governor had the power tofor Premantle is one of them. It is send the same amendments down to thequite in accr wthigenerally narrow House over and over again; and, ifviews. If membrs would be guided by, another division is going to be called for,me in this matter-though- I don't sup- Ithis evening, I would draw attention topose they will-I would ask them to the fact that there are four membersaccept these amendments and to agree to away at the present time.this bill in the way the Secretary of State I MR. A. FORREST: Why didnt youoffers it to us. The result would be that' use the same argument yesterday whenin a very few months we should have I the House divided on another ques-Responsible Government; and, with it, tion ?

352 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES. [APL. 17

MR. SHOLL: If the hion. memberwishes to address- the House I will sitdown?

MR. A. FORREST: I only asked thebion, member a question.

MR. SHOLL: Perhaps the hon. mem-ber will gienotice of it ? With regardto the CvlList, I do not think theSecretary of State care twopence whetherwe vote the amount we are now asked tovote, or not;j or whether the AttorneyGeneral gets another £2100 a year pen-sion, or not. The great point is the rest-ing of the laud in the Legislature; and,so far as I am concerned, I would stickto the Civil List and give way on theland. I am expressing my own personalpredilections now; and I am not goingto desert my colors. That is my ownprivate opinion; but I am going to vote,as agreed upon, for the bill as it stands.My reason for saying that I would stickout on the Civil List, and give way onthe laud, is because I think, once we getResponsible Government, there will be nodifficulty in our getting all we want as tothe land; but we cannot very well goand alter the Civil Liit'; and I do notthink that if we increase the Civil Listnow, as we are asked to do, it will in anyway assist uts in the matter of thvland.

MR. MORRISON: I did not speak onthis question before the House dividedupon it the last time: but I feel boundto say a word or two now that it hascome before us once more, The Attor-ney General says that time i~s the essenceof the contract, and that time is every-thing if we want to get this bill passed.It is all very well for the AttorneyGeneral, or for Lord Knntsford, to saythat; but we have to look at it in thislight: this is not a question of the pres-ent time alone, it is a question of thefuture, it is a question that will affect

-those who come after us, it is a questionthat will affect posterity. Constitutionsare not made every day, nor for aday. It is our duty, I take it, whilesetting about to build a new Constitu-tion, to see that it is properly fixed. Ishould like to know who in Englandknows as much about this country, orwhat will suit the country, as those whorepresent it in this House. I do notitnderstand why poor Western Australiashould at once come to be looked upon

as of so much value in the eyes of theEnglish people and the English Govern-ment. When I was at Home, not longago, everyone said it was no good; butnow, when we want to manage our ownaffairs, it seems to be looked upon as acountry of great importance, and everyobstacle is to be thrown in our way ofgetting the control of our lands- Myidea is that it is our duty in this matterto vote as we voted the other day; and,having done so, that we should requestthe Ministries of all the other Ans-tralian colonies to use their influence inEngland, through their Agents General,to see that we are properly treated inthis matter. I do not mean to say for amoment that Lord Rnutsford has theslightest intention to get us to take Re-sponsible Government without giving usthe laud; hut I think we ought to makeit a certainty. I do not think it wouldbe a prudent thing for any man to goand build a house," on a piece of ground,unless he had something to show thatthe ground was his own; no man withany sense would go and put up a houseon the mere chance of getting the titledee~d afterwards. On the same principleI do not see why we should take on our-selves the responsibility of governing thecolony, until we are sure of getting theland, and a clear title to it. A Consti-tution without the land would be a merescarecrow of a Constitution. We shouldbe the laughing-stock of the whole world,in my opinion. I always look forwardto the day when all these colonies shallbe federated, and Western Australiashall take her proper place with the restof them; but I don't see how she is todo this unless she is to have the samecontrol over her waste lands as the othercolonies have. I feel very strongly on thisquestion; and, although I am a nomineemember, I ama in no way fettered in myactions, and I amn here to give my voteas I1 think best in the interest of thecolony at large. I have no particularconstituency to serve, or to haul me overthe coals; I am free to vote as I thinkbest for the whole colony. If I thoughtI was expected to support the Govern-ment in a case like this, when I consideredthe interests of the colony pointedanother way; if I thought the Governortreated his nominees as we have heardsome Governors before him have done,

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.85

and expected them to support himthrough thick and thin-I know thepresent Governor does not do so, but ifhe dlid, I should feel it my duty to resignmy position before I agreed to sell mycountry-

Tan ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon.0. N. Warton): By auction P

MR. MORRISON: No, but by accept-ing Responsible Government without thecontrol of our lands. I believe if we didso, that, two years hence, the colonywould be in a worse plight than it is innow. How are we going to undertake

-any public works, or do anything todevelop the industries and resources ofthe colony, if we are not in a position tooffer the same security as the other colo-nies for our loans P One is no good with-out the other. The Commissioner ofCrown Lands says we would not be in aworse position than we are mn now. Ithink we should. The only people whowould be in a better position would bethese mentioned in Schedule D. I don'tthink there would be another soul in thecolony who would benefit by the change.

Mu. RASON: The question we arecalled upon to decide is undoubtedly oneof the very gravest importance, and, asthere seems to be a disposition on thepart of some members to compromise thematter, but not until -we are sure thatthe compromise would be accepted by theother hig h contracting party, I think itwould be wise to adjourn this debate, for1a few days, so that the Governor may, inthe meantime, telegraph once more tothe Secretaxy of State, telling him thatthe House, while prepared to give wayas regards the schedules, is firm on thequestion of the land. Probably theSecretary of State might be induced togive way when he found the questionsat issue between us narrowed down tothat one point. With that object inniew, I beg to move that the debate beadjourned.

Question put-that the *debate be ad-journed.

The House divided, with the followingresult-

AyesNoes

Majority for

8

inzs.Mr. Congdon

Mr. HarperMr. Narmion'Mr. MorrisonMr. lRadeliMr. BosonMr. VonHon. C. N. WartonRon. J. A. WrightHon. Sir M. Fruser. , ..

(Taller.)

Debate adjourned.

Nowe.Mr. BurtMr. A. ForrestMr. LotonMr. ParkerMr. PatersonMr. Pean*Mr: ShallMr. Scott (Telle.)

ADJOURNMENT OF THE H1OUSE.THF COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon.

Sir Mf. Fraser) moved that the House donow adjourn.

IMR. MABMION moved, as an amend-ment, that the House at its rising ad-journ for a, week, during the EasterHolidays. In the meantime an oppor-tunity would he afforded. for His Excel-lency to communicate again with theSecretary of State with reference to theConstitution Bill; and members wouldhave an opportunity of considering thereport of the select committee.

The House divided on the motion-

Ayes..Noes..

6

Majority against ..-. 5

Ama. Nots.Hon. J. Forrest Mr. Congdon

Mr. .ForestMr, HarperR Patersons Mr. Morrison

Rom. C. N. Warton Mr. ParkerHon. J. A. Wrigt, Mr. PeareHon. Sir M Frse, CC-.. Mr. Randell

(Teltlr. Mr. EasonMr. ScottMr. ShallMr. VeanMr. Marmion (Tatter.)

The Houseminutes to ten25th April.

adjourned at tweutyo'clock, p.m., until the

353