•

•

•

•

216. S. T. Mb~njw":

already explained th"t it just came to me , into my mind,

that I should toll thoml nnd I can ' t explain any mor e

than that .

I naked you wasn ' t it pcrhnps the result of all

thc confusion that you later on decided to te l l the (5

truth? Or to tell a story.?----1 can ' t understand what

is b~in~ meant by it.

You said that you bcc3me confueed t didn ' t you?

(10

----I didn ' t know them -..,hon I was being- questioned a

lot . I made up my mind . And when the polico came

again Inter I told t~cm. J

Couldn ' t you bear the 90 deys ' "ny longer?---­

No , I am still i~ustody up to to-day . I Yes, but tOd3y you ore no lonecr in solitary

confincnont7----Yes . I an . Up till this day . 1 (15

I SUgClst to you thot the treatment you receive

noVi is fnr better th~n thc.t v/hi"ch you received whilt!

detc.ined under tho 90 Cl 9.V provisions?--- - In whF.t

respect? As I nm today? Look at me'?

MILNE, J . P. : Vihat do you wish us to seC' when we

look at you?----I woulcl probably be wearine; a suit today

M' Lord .

You "1rc 'wearing onc , aren ' t you?----No .

',Vha t arc you wea.ring'?----'IIca r ing a. j£".cket ond I

(20

n p"1r of trousers that is full of paint. (25

P"int? ----Yes .

But you get better food now th~n you got before

you told th0 police ell you kn~vn----It depends where you

ore dnt'l.inod . I got better food vlhen I cnme bock here

than befor". And before I told the polieo ~nything . 0"

Well noVl you ' ve.: been buck hc:re in Durb'1n - back

here in Jf3t~l since tho 31st of October ; is that right?

In/ ...•.

•

•

•

217 . S. T. Mbnnjwa:

In Nntnl ?----This is the second tint I ' ve cone down to

Nr. t::!l .

Since th& Inst time you cerne down , you have been

here since the 31st of Oetober?--- - As far as I can

r orr-ember I e~~e back on the 30th October .

',1\,;11 now when is the first time you came down?

July , isn ' t it7- - --Thc fi rst time was on the 15th July .

And I went back on the 18th Sept emhe r .

Between the 15th of July and 18th September, you

wor e in Durb~n? ----Y08 . , \~

And you got food of a cert,lin k ind?----It depended

on the police station whorl: I vms on which type of food

I was getting .

You got food of a cert.~in kind in Durben that was

bette r than you ~ot in PFc t orin? ----Thc first time I (15

wont to Prctori:1 the food vms not good . Th{.; second time

I went up the; food had improved; which all the detainees

were gGtting .

You m'1 f]c your st['tuT:lent about all you knew to

tilL police towards the end of August? ----Yes . (20

Did you find after you ' d made your statement th3t

you got better food than you did beforc?----It was the

same bccnusc I wos g~ttinG my food f r om outside , it c~me

from home , durine ~ll tho time I w~s in Durbnn .

Do you M0an Gv&n befor e you mnde your stnt oment?(25

Even before you mnde your statement were you getting

food f rom homc? - - --Ycs .

EVLn in July?--- - Ycs .

So th,t between the 15th of July and the end of

Aur;us t When you I!lndc your st'Otemont you were getting (30

your food supplemented by food sent to you from your home?

- --- yes .

And/ . . t ••

•

•

•

•

218 . S . T. Mbanjwa:

And ,is your food still being suppl emented by food

from your home?----Yes .

MR . THIRION : Now how is it that whi l e you we r e under

solitar y confine~ent you W0re allowed food f r om outside?----

I don ' t know . The law is not in my hands . ( 5

Did you see the per son who br ought you t he food?

--- - No •

. 0f you Vlere allowed out today - say , fo r i nstance t

you hov e given your uvidonce - ~nd you are told you are

now a f r ee man , to go , What would your political views (10

be , your politic~l affiliations when you ar e a free man

again?--- - I cannot say at the moment .

Has it changed in 8ny wny from what it wos be f or e

you nade this statement?- - - - I con ' t say anything in that

respect . As I have said I do not know at this moment . /( 15

Do you still think th~t you were right in joining

thi s organisa.tion u:NIkontowcsizVlo"?---- I r..aven f t given that

anothe r thought . I have only thought about my position a t

the moment . )

How are you feeling about the fact that you ( 20

hav e rcvc.:I.led your nssocia.tes to the police? .. -_What I

have said is only in respect of wbnt I have done .

Yes, but how do you fee l about having done i t ?- --

I h~vc not given ~nything else n thought . r have just

sa1d the things that I howe r.>adG ::lCcording to my own

de c isions .

MILlolE , J. P . : You I vo s 'lid wb::lt? - ---Thine;s that I have

done on my own decisions.

MR . TIURION/ .....

/ (25

•

•

•

219 • S.T . Mb~njwe ,

MR. TIIIRION,Did you m:\):c IOore than one written etlltcment'?---­

Only one .

Did you not rn,kc st~t~mcnts enrliLr on befor e you

decided to come clean? ----No .

IIho VlorE the detectives who 'luestioned you in (5

Prctorin? --- - I do not know their nomes .

MILNE , J . P. , Do you know whether any of tMm arc her e?

----I have not s~en ~nyonc here in Court.

Not .t any time?--- - No .

MR . THIRION, You were 'lIsa 'luestionod in Dur ban?---- (10

Yes .

Viae it in Durb .. n , or in Pretoria that you made a

statemcnt?----In Durbnn .

Who questioned you in Dur b:.n?----The C. LD . in Durb~n.

I do not know their n'l.l!l.es . There is no one here in (15

Cour t .

MIU1E , J . P. : You hav~ n~ver s~cn ~nyone in the Court ,

or in the pr ecincts of th~ Court , or ~nywherc round about

th"" Court since thi s tri'11 str.rtE:o, wbom you r ecoenise us

one of your intl.: rrog~i.tors? -----M ' Lord, I hove not seen

~nyonc.. in Court except SI.~.oirC\Rt C.robJer whom I took to

ce r tain spots to point out to him.

(20

I

MR. THIRION, Were you not questioned by the mnn who

nppearod to be in charge of these investig.otions , Lieute-

nnnt Steenkamp? - - --No . (25

Were you questioned by higher r~nks , or constables,

or sergermts?---- (Court inr..:,rvc:.nes)

MILNE , J.P . : I think counsel is r0ferr ing to Durban .

----I do not know tho police, C. I .D. in Durb~n . I don ' t

know whnt their ranks arQ . (30

\lcrc the pE:oplc who questioned you, somc:tirnes "in ·unifonn

~nd sometimes not? ----Thoy were nIl in priv3t e clothes .

MR. ./ . .••.

•

•

•

•

220 . S . T. Mbanjwa.

MR . THInION. As a politic inn of leftist inclinations

didn ' t you know the members of the Special Branch?----

I know police of the Special Branch, but those who ques­

tioned mO I do not know .

me,

How did thoy trent

they did not trect me

you?----They just quest10ned I( 5

bad:y .

iYerc they insistent in their qucstions?--They

were questioning me, trying ';0 get from me what they

wanted to know .

r;row in deciding to moke a clean breBst did you (10

take into account the f~ct th3.t you would be used as a" I Stnte witne9~?----No .

We r o you completely diaintcrested in 1he metter?

----What m~tter?

Wh::.t would hcppen to you once you had ""de (15

your stat\,.:mont?----I hnd told them I1bout nll th wrong that

I had done; it ';ms tor tht.m to decide what to d .

Did you not, having rosisted for two month. did

you not think th'~t you should try and barg,,1n with "em

first? ----No. (20

Did you know tl"lc ho.'1vy pcnnlt1es which .Q convic· on

for sobotcge: cnrry? ----ycs, I know .

Did you know thnt you would go to gnol for at lene

five years on c ...... ch count? ----yes .

On e~ch count?----yes .

Th-,t would have kept you in gaol for about 100 \

yearB? ----Th~t is so .

(25

And, bting ~ prOMinent member of this organisation,1

you might ~~V~ been sentenced to denth? ----Th?t is so .

Now you had to choose: betY-Ie€;n whnt is almost (30

a life imprisonment cnd death? ----How I would h::!ve to

chooso bet\/(;(;n the: two?

Yes , / •••.

•

•

•

•

S. T. MbanjVla:

Yea , it WD.S even 'Norse, you couldn I t choose for

yoursclf .----How c~n on accused p~rson choose?

In any cese you JmcVI that you would either get

the death stntence or you would eet a ve r y long prison

sentonce? ----ycs, I knQv{ that .

In those circumstances , I put it to you,the very

lenst you would h~ve done would be to tell them: "I'll

te l l you what I know , but then you must make me a Stat e

'tn " N W1 css . ---- 0 ,

to be a witni...ss .

I never seid that, and I never expected 1 (10

Then why did you Mnke this st~tement? ----I

h~ve olrc~dy s~id that I admitted my offenc~3 .

Purely hr',....,ll ..... :... you were at your wits end? - ---

TlL,t WC>S fly dCCiSiO~

Didn't the police t.ll you: "We know this (15

::lbout you, Ind we- know thr'!.t 'lbout you , it ·:;auld be

useless for you to pretend that you cr·. innoccnttl?----No .

';/ho took down your otatcr.lCnt? ----Thc ~rgeent, 1 , I don I t know where he is .

Or ,'het his n'lnc 19? ----1 don i t remember his (20

n'lD'-t I for6c.t tis n~.r.: . c.

MILNE , J . P . : 'Wh~lt r~co vns this scrgennt? Is this the;,

se:rgc'"!nt ~1ho took your st.:J.tIJIT,l.;nt? - --- European sergeo.nt .

MR . THIRION: ric Olre not entitled to the statement

mnde by the '"ccuscd, but my submission is the St3te (25

should disclose thl; n:-'.mc of thE. person who took it down .

MILNE , J . P.: What ' s the Object of it, Mr. Thirion?

This is a most peculinr w::1y of ero. s- t:x~mining isn t t it?

Ie this part of j< ,t': ..:..ross- cxo!:linntion, or is ito.

speci~l npplication? (30

MR. THIRION: No, M' LorJ , I apply to your Lordship to have

the name of this person.

MILNE , J . P. : On whet grounds?

MR . / ••••.

•

•

•

•

222 . S. T. Mbanjwn,

MR. THIRION: M'Lord, it night assist to know who took

this stotement .

MR . THIRION ADVANCES ARGm~T ON HIS SUBMISSION,

MILNE , J . P . : It Day be that Mr . Rees has no objection

to telling you . If you ~sk him, he will tell you . (5

MR . THIRION, I th€n ask the prosecution to give the

defc:nce tho namO of the person to whom this statement was

made . (Long silence . ) Silence menns thnt the answe r is

"No , Ii MILoro .

MILNE , J . P. : My impression is that counsel ar e dis­

cussing the question of vlbether they sbould tell you or

not .

MR . THIRION: As your Lordship pleases .

(lC'

MR. REES: M' Lord 7 I e.m ir.foIUcd that the statement was I t~k~n by e Serscant Deyeel . (15

~Lq . THInION: Thr.nk you, tl ' Lord .

MR . THIRION CO~T~n'IJES CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE WITll.CSS:

MR . THIRIO!!: Did you 6e6 accused No . IO while you were in

PrGtorin? - --- Yes .

lII1!1E , J . P . : Thot is Hiot lYlkwanazi?----Yes . (20

MR . THIRION: 1j!~r(J. you then limping?---- I vms walking and

not limping .

Did you have only one shoe on or both shoes on?

---- I was wC.'aring one shoe . V/he:D I left the cell to the

office . (25

Just te-ll us the r eason why you were wearing

one shoe? ----My other shoe was not there .

Y!hE::rc wns it?---- I lost it in Durban .

How did th~t C0r.16 o.bout? ---- I lost my shoe

running .

Vlhy werE; you running?----Running away from the

police .

Vleren ' t/ •••••

00

•

•

•

•

, 23 •

Weren ' t you rt:'r cstcd in ,') bus?----Ycs, I was

~rrcsted in the bus . I .got off tho bus, and as soon as I

~ot off tho bus I r ... n '").\'/c.y .

Was there not a struggle and then you r an away?

----I was only o~u",ht by a lot of sohool bays when they (5

caurht me , ~nd they ~ssistcd the police nnd handed ne to

the police .

Ilhat sc hool boys? ----Close to tho sohoo l whe r e I

was arr (;stcd . The second time .

~IUE , J . P. : The second time?----Yes , the fi r st time I (~U

w:~o arrested in th(~ bUB . The second time I was arres t ed

by the boys .

MR . THIRION: And you nev.::r went bnck to :pick up your shoe?

----I went b~ck, l'ut I oould not find it .

Art- y,'u "; friend of Mtolo? ----Ycs, w..;; were (15

f'ric;nds bcc'1USC we w(lrked at the snme pl:l.ce .

Did you not ~ttcnd bee r dr inks togethcr?----

We dr-mk beer togLthcr wh(.:n it 50 h'lppcnl:d thnt we met

thor\". : but w(. never r/~nt out together to beer drinks . II! Do you kno' .. ·./hother Mtolo W:lS in possession

of e. firenrn? Or r~.ther wns in the: h~bit of enrrying n

fir(;~rm?----no , I did not hove that knowledge .

Do you know the reason for your still being in

custody? ----No , I don ' t .

(20

Do you expect to be released when you have {2~

given evidcnce? - - -- I hnvc not been told qnything .

Weren ' t you told ~t the outset of your cvidenc(.

----No , I did not hc~r thnt .

MILNE , J . P. : By WhOM , Mr . Thirion?

i\1:\ . THIRION: There was ';.n (;xpl'"!n~tion to the witncss ... (JO

(Cou:t intcrvcn"s)

MILNE, J . P. : Vlho -,re you suggesting told him?

MR. THIRION/ • • ••

•

•

•

•

224 . S.T. Mbnnj ..... a:

MR . THIRIO!!: MILor r I ' m r0fl:rring to the explanation

to him in Court .

MILNE, J . P. : I 1 idn I -t tt 11 him .

'.R. ?HIRION: Whnt Vias s'lid to you at tho beginning of

your cvidcnce?--- - I took the oath that I would speak the(,

truth .

'Has there no expl::mntion made to you? ----­

(Court inte=vones)

MILNE, J . P. : Were you not in Court at the time?

MR . THIPION: I was , M' Lord .

MILNE , J . P. : Well you ' V" got a very poor rocollection .

You ' d better look at the rocord .

1.!R . THIRION: As your Lordship pleases .

110 FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR . THIRION:

CROSS- EXAiolIHED BY IJR . ilILSON:

Is it correct thnt in .,bout 1959 you Vlore

living ~t Somtscu Road? - - --No .

-'here were you living then?----At - I think

I w~s st.vinc.,t Bank Ro~r. at th3t time .

( 15

Is thnt in Coto Mnnor? ----Second River . (20

And did you go on living there , or did you

ch1.nB€ :'lnd live somewherE: e1801 ----1 left there '1.nd went

."'lnd lived 'J.t Ridgeview .

Whc.rc is tlIDt?----Ncor Cnto Mc.nor .

\7hon did you go to live thero? ----I do not (25

remember the year .

Before or ~fter 19611----1 think it wos bofore

1961 .

And vou livt,;d there with your fnmily? ----YEs .

And WlJrl.: you living there until your arrest , (30

wi th your f"mily? ----No .

H~vc you nove" from there?----Long ago .

When/ ••••.

•

•

•

•

s. T. ~!banjwa:

Wht.n did you nuvc? Where were you living in

1961?---- (Mr . Rees intervenes)

MR . RPES: M' Lord, it S(('ClS to me this is on attempt to

publiciso the identity of this witness .

l'ILiiE , J . P . : Is it ~nythinG of the kind?

~m . WILSON: No , til' Lord . It ' s Got nothinll to do - I

don ' t Vlo.nt his e.odress spccificclly . I ' m quite happy

if he tells me the D.rE:;~ he lived in . Where t'lid you

move, ~nd whGn?----I left then; 'lnd went to Shallcross .

When did you j~O to Sh~llcross? ---- I think

I went there about 1960 , until 1961.

Anel then where: did you llO?----Then I went to

H"':.mmarsdnlt: .

So you hove teen living in H~rnmarsd~lc since

~bout 1961?----ycs .

And before tten you V/1.;re living ~t Shallcross?

---- (Mr . Wil,lOn aelds) In 1960?----Yos.

An .. 1 were you workinll at th~t time at LClkhClni

Ch.J.mbers? - - -- WhEn I \tr:s wh.;;re?

(5

(l

( 15

1961 , when you VI 're 'J.t Shnllcroos , before you (2C

went to Hr;mm~rsd'J.lc? ----Yes .

What were yo~ doing in C3tO Manor, cooing from

work on the. dn.y th(. ptopl,- were.. r.lnrching thE:r...:? ---­

M::.rchinrr , going wherc.?

Durin" the 61"eTI'ency when you addressed the(25

m3rchine people? You told UD you c~~t thGrc, coming from

'IIork? ---- I did spwk to these people , I told th"m to

sc~ttcr ~nd go b~ck hOMe .

r ,'I',nt to knO'i' ./h:"t you were doing at Cnto

r~":'.D.or? ----I V/:1S go ins to C'1to rbnor, coming from work . (30

You didn ' t live: in Cato M~nor then? ----I have

rcl'1.tions '1.11 over in C .... to Manor .

YOU/ ••..•

•

•

•

•

226 . ..;. ~r . Hben j'o/::l:

rond You P'lSSCU " polic8 Abl ock to get in there ,

di,dn ' t yOu? ---- I rot off :t bus nt C'3.to Mflnor Po l i c e

Station . From thore I 'ilent on foot . When I got to the

int.;;r9sction of the ro .. d coming from C;J.to Manor and t he

ro~d going to Second River there I met the polioe . I (5

went ahoad . The: police reTT!:tined ther \'; , I met same

people coming towards me .

You could S\...C: there vms trouble ther~ , couldn I t

you?---- ycs .

The police '-Iere out in force?----I don I t

knor,' ;ih':'.t forca thc;rc: '.',}9 , but I saw that police Vlere

out .

This Lion Me,tch F"ctory strike th~t you hav e

been '1.skcd nbout , :3i<1 you '".lotten'] the trial?----Yes .

Did you h(·;"J.r wi tm.sses describe you as one of (15

the instig,'!tors of thE: strikc?---- I neVEr heard them soy

so . If it wns like t}""t I would have been arrested .

,Iere you at the Lion Untch F:'l.ctory during the

st r iku? ---- I explained ~7est..;:rd~y th;.t it w~s not supposed to

be ~ strike, it Vl'lS sU1'posc.d to b(; Cl. dE;Jnonstrntion . (20

'N.:.;rc. you tncrc? --- I wns outSide, not inside •

You Wo.;;r( in the prc.cincts - in the vicinity?

---- yc.s, about the: factory .

How do you l..-E!t home to H::mrrnnr:jdalc - or how

ilid you get homl? to Hnnl,:-1J:'scl:llc from Durb:->.n? ---- By t r 3in . (2 r

Ho','! T!l:l.ny tr'1ins "J.re thl,;re ofter work? ---­to tell 1'1e

I I ·1 1ik.:: coun.3cl for tht.: dcf<:.:ncc"w1'et time, those thot

finish work'J.t whnt title? Soree finish at 4:00, 5:00 '1.nd

6: 00, M' Lore].

You qre .~n intelliGent person; you know tha t ( 30

we h~vc been diocussing your employment. Can you tell

me what ... (not comploter]) V/ill you "nswor the

question? / •.••.

•

•

•

•

227,

question'? ----Hclf past six, or tht lost one is at 8:00 01 c'

Those r:.re the only two trnins? ----Those nrc the

last two .

Vlhich tr'lin do you norllt:llly C'ltch - did you

nOrI!lally catch?----Hnlf past six . ( j

Did you always catch that one? ----No .

V/hat US(;C\ to d.Jlay you? ----Somctimcs e. m0ctir-.'"

Sometimes I went drinking ; sometimes I Vl0nt to dances wi.;h

girls .

And did your family not expect you home?

----They never mentioned qnything to me, they expected mC

Hhcn they saw me .

Didn ' t you tell them when you were going to be

late?---IJo, th'l.t ' s '1 thi~ I do not do .

You WeTC sho¥m '1 photo raph Exhibit A(p) (2), C.

I unr9crst::.nd , ,"'nd you wer~ 'naked if you could identify

Ronnie Knsrils'? ---- (Mr . Recs intervenes)

MR . REES: MILord , he wns nsked if he could identify th ...

person .

MR . WILSON: And you s'lid the big photollmph VI"-S Ronnie (2~

Kasrils?----ycs .

Is the fact that evc r y single photogr'lph on tt

shc€t is a photoGr~ph of Ronnie Kasrils? ----Thtv Clre no ,­

nIl thf; s~me . I C'1n only identify thE: enlargement, the

big onc cs Ronnie Kasrils .

C'1n 1 t you recognise him in the other photo ­

gr~phs?---- I took no notice of the others . It .. as the bi"

photoemph th~t struck t!1o eye .

MILNE , J . P. : Arc you suggesting the wi tncss docsn ' t knoy'

him , Mr . Wilson?

MR . 'nILSON: I ' m sUo';Gcsting th3t if he has difficulty

he doesn ' t know him very well . He obviously did identify

him, /,. • .

• •

•

•

•

228 . S . T. Mbonjw81

him , but • . • (not completed . ) And to clear up one

pOint, my 1.~:nrne(1 frio!l . .':i hes covered it , I don ' :t -;mnt to

cov~r the sume ground: but you hav£ told us , I think ,

that in n scction the members of the section would only

know their s6etion leader? ----Yes, thp-t is whnt I said . (5

And that is thE:" only person they would mve

any dealings with in tho orgcnisation?----yes .

And the sections were nIl kept secret from

one cnother r weren ' t they? ---They never got together •

And you only later onme to know other people (L~

when you first beccme e section lender , and later you

became recruiting officer?----Yes ,

Did you only become a recruiting officer when

you became 0. m0mbe r of the Regional Command? ----No ..

We r e you recruiting officer before thnt? ---- (15

I vms assisting before that .

Who were you nssisting?----Bruno Mtolo .

And can you remember when you started assisting

bim?----This year, Febru~ry .

Is thnt when you first started having any (20

d~alinc.s with rccruiting?----yes .

Did you kno\'l:;'l.bout recruiting before then?

----No .

Perhnps I should have mnde it clear - I don ' t

know if you und(;rstand mo , thnt when I say " recruiting" (25

in this contGxt, I menn recruiting for overseas

tr::lining.----I underst[',nr}. I never mentioned overseas

trnining .

Not overSt'H1S t M' Lord, out of the Republic .

MILNE , J . P . : Out of the Republic? For tr~ining ( 30

out of the R0public?

MR. l.7ILSON: yes .----yes .

MILNE , J . P . : / •.•• ".

•

•

•

•

2,,9 •

rULllE , J . P . : You s.::.id l.;D.rli(.r when you werr..:; assisting

Bruno Mtol'c to r\;;~rui t persons , VfaS he recruiting personD

for mili t~~ry training outs i dE.: the R(;.;public? .---;- Yeo .

MR . dILSON: , Anf! is the posi tibn . thllt you only got to

h0Lr about this aspect of tho organisction in February (5

of this year? ---- Yas .

How mnny people were thera in a section? ---­

Three r..nd a s.;;ction lead!.';r .

-tfhy in Il~..lTI.IIk;,rsdalc , h2.vC you given un a list

of five pCCJpl(.. ao bGing members oi' that scction , as wel l

as yourself? ---- I mentioned to Ronnie that Zulu and (11

lll;yi Y/Q. YJ€rc working in Pi..: ... tormari tzburg Cond w{: could not

hav .... a meeting with them during the weck . That is why

W(; dl;Cid;;d th~t one day wh\;.:n therl; is n regional command

in Pi6tcrma.ritzburg th8y would be trClnsi'errt':d to ?ietcr- (15

m['.l'itzburg and H,;; would have 0. full s~ction lefL .

Wh""n did you discuss <111 this with Kasrils?

---- A3 fF~r':1.9 I C,in r~!!l,.;mb(;;-r it \'Ins 'OJ,t tb8 ~nd of

November , l:.st Y0Cl.r .

'."nc.n I tit b~CaU8i:: these p00ple f011 out c.:.nd (20

w(.:re not willing to join ;rou? ---- No •

You rl.'f,_;rr"d to also, to som..::onc Shangc.zi .

What position did h.:; hold? ---- (Mr . Wilson adds) .

A. C. Shangazi? ---- I sr..id yesterday ho.:: was n

w(,;!ll known person in G..;org·~dllle nnd Hnt:lIllarsdalc . (25

You w~rc asked this afternoon by my lo.Jc.rned

fril:..:nd to tell him thl,j nnJll0B of all the PGoplo you got

to know in this org2nisation . Do you r,:;m0I!lb.c.r that? ----

I n ... Ver said trt.:l.t Shangrtzi 'ilD.S ,~ I!l0mber of this orgc.nisution.

t;i) . Ifh(; orgnnic:;,~tion w:-1.s '1n ~xtr...:ml.,)ly ~(;croJt (30

onl.. , w:::.sn 1 t it? ---- Yi.JD .

Yet , you went to Shant3uzi who was not a member

of/ .. ... .

•

•

•

•

- 230 - .: . f . UbrmjwE... !

of thi8 orc~nL.K!.tion to ask hi!!! to rucrui t p~oplc: for

you? ---- I n-.;v:.:! .... xplaino...:d to Sh~ngazi whet I vmntud •

the",..:' p..:oplt..; for .

No , you didn l t tt..;ll him you w~ntcd it for un

unlnw'ful organisntion , did you? --- - No .

So thuy would not h~v~ b~~n told thqt 0ithcr ,

by Shang,,-zi , would they? I wouldn I t hav...: told him

b'.:.causc; h\.C w;:'.!',n r t <l m(:mb(;r of thl.' organisa tien .

MILlIE , J . P . : What Couns~l in ""yinr is: ' If h8 "'-on ' t

told by you , h~ didn ' t ~ull th~m t ? ---- I just nskod

Shang::l.zi to look out for two or thr_...: p0rsons for mc .

did not tell Lin \';hfl t I w~ ... ntl..d tbem i'or .

VIIm t 'iort of IDl,;n did you describe? ---- I

told ' . ,1l~ th·.:t I ·\i~nted mt:n , not to old ; f-.irly young .

r

(5

(10

Ih.:. h ~ not curiou;; t( kno','l wh~t you i"~:-mt,-d (15

th~m for? [l nt.;v·r troubl.Jd mt: ~v '":!3k I!li.: ,",lID t I

W' .nt~d t:' ... m for .

", T' you <Jxpi...:ctin,· i-:im t. pick th"sc men up

from th"",ir work , or who. t? - --- I ,'/'"!nt..:d him to go..; t th(;;m

in the G....:org·.;d1.1l.: or H8.mrao.r5d":'~lc o.r· '-1 . (20

I:..i th, t a.n n.rc[;. r..;Dt,;rv .... d for Bantu occupation?

---- It is a.n ::.rD3, with No.tiv ... - onnctl propL..rty .

MR . IIILSON: You .:.y tho G~ two F'.oplc - accused Ho . 15 "nd

16 c'-~mo to your hous. on Sund:::.y? ---- Yo..::;, .

And you took thL:!l into your hOUSL:? YI,;:!3 . (25

irnlJro.:! you had all thic '1plJtlratu8 set up for

mn!dng bomb:;? ---- Y :J.

~jo you took two mt.:n whon you did not know, who

hC'.d not bc\,.Cn :.Iound .d au t in ~my w .... y into your hous, and

Shm"l(;d th ... m your bombL1n.kinc: ppnr-.1 tus? ---- I had npoKo..:ll (30

to th .... ID pr ...... viou:31y who n thL:Y h"ld bCl.:n 98nt to ro ...... by

Shc.ngazi . I hnd 'pok~n to th...;m , tnt,;y hed C!grccd to

bCCOCE/ ••• • • " •

•

•

•

•

- 231 - 3 • ~e . IIlbun jY·/a .

b~co~(; members of this organisation . Th....:n after that ,

four of thi...m arriv~d 'on thi;:; Sunday cV0ning when I Vias

to givl; thL'm a L.Gmonstr'1tion .

You knew t hese two men , didn ' t you?

knl.!w thL'm before they co.me to my homo .

I

Vlhat o.g:c men were you looking for? - --- I

did not stipulate any ago . I just wo"ntcd people that

could still w"lk fClst .

What ugc did you think you nantGd? - ---

About 35 ycr:rs and under .

Both accused Nos . 15 and 16 are 40 or over ,

o.ren ' t th...;y? - - _. r:Jheydon ' t apPC.'.'"1.r to be .

ACCUSl.!d No . 14 is 38 . (Th~ Court intcrv~nes) .

'ULNE , J . P . : No . 14?

( 5

(10

MR . 7,'ILSON: No . 14 M' Lord . HJ is elGo on..; of this - (15

.::.lll.!eud to b0 on ... of this gr0up . - --- It doesn ' t c.ppear

to bl;. thot .. nd I didn \ t pay any particular c.tt",ntion to

their ages .

Do you knO'tI NkoGi - No . 1)? ---- YDS .

THEiiITNESS STANDS DO\IN .

'rHE COURT ADJOURnS UNTIL THE 28th NOVEMEER, 1963 .

(20

•

••

•

•

- 232 - S . T . t lbanjwa .

ON TIL 2eth NOVEClllER ! 1963 , THE COURT RESU/,lES .

A?TEARANCES AS BEFORE .

oll RESUMPTION :

MR'. THIRLON : May it plQase you, My Lora , I yesterday put

a 'luc,tion to thi wi tness about the explanati on which (5

VIa.;} given to him by Your Lordshi.? at the outset of his

evidonco . I have now a ... certained that that question

was completely '.-{ronG and I apologise to your Lordship

and to thG witness for put t i nr- it .

SOLOMON T . ItBANJWA. (Witness ,·till on oath) .

CROSS - 3Xlc.IHTET BY I,rn . ,IILSOIl: (Co~tinued) •

Do you knQ',v the Georgedule Lando\,me r s '

Association? --- - Yes .

Did you hold sonc position in that organiaation?

---- YC3 . (15

rid you cone to know accused Hos .15 and 16

through that orbanisation? Ye_" that is whEtI I first

caw them , vhen I w~nt to thC:l.t meeting .

. A.nd was accu3ed No . 16, Zulu , tht! Vice - Chair-

man? ---- No . (20

Chairman .

S~cr~tury , ~orry? Yes .

Did acc used No . 15 hold any of fico? --- - Yes .

\.'as he the Vice- Chairma...."1? ---- He WaS the Vice-

~/as :.::.ccused No . 14, r,jdhlalose , [~lso a member (t:: 5

of this organisation'r ---- I 00 not know whether he was

a membvr but I scnl him at a me8tin.,; one day .

Did r.lo!Jt of the people: who lived in Georce­

dal,- belon€, to thi3 association? - - - - Most of them, yes.

And you were the Assi3tant Secretary , weren ' t (30

you? ---- Yes , ttat i~ truc .

So you knew a grbut many people in the George-

dal e/ • . .....

•

•

•

•

- 233' - S .T . MbanJVla .

dale areu , didn ' t you? - - -- I knew quite n. lot by 3ight

but not by na:nl;.: or surmune . I had only recently come to

tha.t area ,

You came there in 1961, didn ' t you? ---- I

never attendea any meeting" during 1961 .

meeting I attended wan during 1962 .

The first

Is it correct that accused No.l ~ and 16 spoke

to you and visited you on occasions about the affairs of

this association? ---- No .

Did they never dincuss the ~ffairs of this (l r

association with you? ---- Not at oJ homa .

Di d they never visit your home for that

purpose? - - -- No . Only when reports had been made to

me that they had been to me to notify me of a meeting.

Did you keep the Minute!;> of that association? (15

Sometimes , yes ..

Has there be.:;,n a ccrt:lin amount of trouble

8.bout the lo1inutes of the last mer;:ting you attended? - - - ­

What trouble?

Have you prcpart!d the f.linutes of that last

neeti ng? ---- I took thl1 Minutes of thE'; mCi:;ting and I

':on ' t know where they are now .

MILNE , J , P . : ',ihi ch meetinG? ---- The last meeting I

attended of the Georgeda18 and District Landowners'

Association .

When was that about? - --- About at the be ­

·~innin.T of this year .

H. NILSON : Did you r..av0 the membership cards printed?

- - -- I made out the order .

(20

(25

You paid for them? - --- I borrowed the money (30

and paid for these membership cards and this money was

returned to me .

Has/ • .•• , .,

•

•

•

•

- 234 - S.T . Mbanjwa .

Han it been retUJ"ned? .Insn l t there some di::;­

pute betweon ycm and the As sociation about that money?

- --- As far a..; r c·.n remember there .v:l;3 no di:Jpute at all

~bout the refund of this rnon~y .

You say you borrm .... 0d some money . Have you (5

spent your £2 , OOO? I didn ' t have any money on me or

near mt! • That i J,vhy I borrowed tlJ.e money .

Have you still got your R4 , 000 . 00? ---- No .

Have you spent it al l? ---- Yes .

'{that on? --- - In connection with my home . ( .. ~

I bought clothing .

Did yo u opcnd uny of it on your political

acti vi ties? - ---- No, not ev en a farthine .

Didn ' t YI)U believe suf ficicmtly in your

poli tical objects to put any 01~ your 0/111 money bt:!hind (15

them? ---- To s")cnd my childr,:-n I s money for that?

You kdoJP on sayinl-~ your childrt:!n ' s moaey .

HO\l did you C',-,t this money? ---- I .Ion it on the races .

Tr~, race~'? - '--- Yeo .

What sort of bet did you haVe? ---- It was a (c:O

Jackpot .

It paid out £2 , 0007 ---- Y03 .

When wr,s this? ---- End of 1961.

Whut mcuting was it on? ---- At Clairwood .

At tho beginning of December .

You 've told tho,:; Court about a meeting you

:Jay , h'J.Pfeneu at you~ hou...:;e on a Sunaay night? ---­

',ita t kind of 8 mee ting .

Wher.; you 81-'.l:,' accused Nos . 13, 14, 15 and 16

~"cr~ prCSi~nt; ---- Yes , that was the da;)' that I gave

thc~ a d(;7'1.on;;..tration .

i'lere they the only people present? ---- They

(25

( jO

were/ •.... . ..

•

•

•

•

235 - S . T. Mbanjwa .

were the only personc present in the room ""hert: 'Ne wer e .

lilly did you have five people thero when a

section i3 only four? ---- I gave an explanation yester­

day .

Y·'!J , your explanation yesterday was that two (5

of thJSC peopl!.:: came from Pictermo.ritzburg? ---- And I

went on to (;x91nin that I told Ronnie Kllorils as they

arc v10rking in Pic t ermari tzburg, they can I t attend meet­

ingD durinc thl! week .. And VI(; had decided when a RC6iona1

Command 13 start.:!d in Pictermaritzburg, they would be (10

tr(:"nsi'errcd to Pi12termaritzburg . That i s why we were

looking for membors to fill this 3cction .

~ .... ll me ho'.-, you ever came to have morc than

thr\,.:\: otru.;r p(.;oplc th.J.n your3clf in this l:' .ction?

i3 C::lU!lt..! thC're ;;-:13 no on . .,Ii 11-] thp rno'./l dt~\,.; of sabotage . (l~

YC5, but you only ne~d~d thre~ other p~ople to

form a :3..::ction t y{hy did you c;vc:r C..::t more th: .. Jfl thre03

oth r !H.:ople? ---- Three p~ople ar~ r~quir.:d in a scction

and the fourth i !J the s,-,ction leader and tl~cy .ler\;' the:n

four; I wat} th0 fifth . .:::0

\fuy di d you ever com8 to recruit mor0 than the

thre(: you neL.:dcd? ---- BL:CaU3u one of thL four would be

required as a secti on 1 ·nder but thl;:rc ';;a no on ... amongst

th..;m who had the .i<.noYll.Jdge tha.t th~ nection lcadur should

havo .

'Ilhcn did Japhtn Luthuli join this s~ction?

---- As f;.!r an I can r' 'm,;mbcr it ',v; .;; towards the end

of N'ovcmbl...r .

Of 1.L..it year? ---- Yes .

nav~ you told us when aCCU30d No . 3, NKosi,

joined it? Last y.ar .

l/he vias the -rirst person to join your section

(25

(30

in/ .. ........ .

•

i • ,

•

•

•

- 236 - S . T. Mbanjwa .

in Hammarsdale? ---- Nkosi .

And the second? --- - HG informed m~ that he

had f ound Ndh1a1ooe .

And the third? 'Itho was the next one to join?

--- - Zulu and Kcyiwa ~ogether after the matter was dis- (5

clls:o".od •

Japhta Luthuli was the last onq? ---- Yes .

So tho others j oinod before the end of

Hovember? Yes .

Can you give any indication of wh~n they (10

joined? ---- Although I don ' t rem~mber the exact time ,

I ',vould say it was towards the und of September.

"tn1O? ---- Tile four that I mentioned.

Whi eli four? ---- Bernard Nkosi , 1,ldh1a1ose ,

Meyi wa and Zul u . (15

Do you know wh8.t Zulu does for 0. living? ----

I hav~ heard thut De w~s a t~acher .

Do you know if he is a school principal? --- -

No , I did not kno',J ,

Do you Imow wh:Jre he ',yorked? ---- I I ve heard (20

that it was in Pietcrmari tzburg but I do not know '\lhere .

Did you never en~uire? ---- No .

I suggest to you that he was at Albert Falls

which io outside Pi~termaritzburg? - - -- I will not

deny that . I ot:ver investigated the matter . (25

You nov C!y invI8Gtign.t~d the matter but you ' ve

told us th<..:.t accused No . 15 , M..<."tyiwa and accused No . l6 ,

Zulu , 'Ncre to form a :3uction in Pictermari t.zburg? --- -

I never inv0stigated where he worked but I knew that

they wera in Maritzburg, that ' s why I :Juggested that

they \'fert,) to form a s\.1ction unc1E'r the RC[,:ional Command

in Pi0termaritzburg .

You/ . • • ...

•

•

•

•

- 237 - S . T. Llbanjwa .

You nev\:!r ch~cked on tl,vm? ---- No .

Do you knoVi ';lhuro Albert Fal ls is? ---- No .

Did you ne:ve;r ~(,~ them wher.; they liv~d in

Mari tzburg?' - - -- I asked ~,1.~yi wa. \lh(;lrc hQ worked and where

they stayed in Pi0tvrmaritzburg . (5

':there he stoyed or whorl.! they stay.;:-d?

I only asked ~jeyi \'Ia where hC:'orkcd and where he st<ly~d .

I did not ask anyone else . I didn ' t as'k where they both

st, ,yod . I only u:Jkcd where "',lcyiwa stayed and worked .

You n .... ver hud any idea 'Ihe:re Zulu worked or (10

stayed? - --- I only knew that he worked in Pietunnaritz­

burg but I did not knO;l Rherc h0 stayed .

';nl\,;li Y0U firJt .... £loke: to Nkosi about becoming

a membGr of thi3 orG.:.1niDntion , ilhnt exactly di d you tell

him? ---- I ask_o .tim to 'o8comv a mc:mber of this

orl.,;anisa tion .Ikontow~_·i Z';J-a .

','llr'lt elc·_ diu you tell r.iIl1? - --- I tcld him

briefl y the objGct of this orguni ua.tion •

. n-~L:n ;/:"'S tLi:.1 '; ---- La;; t year .

;/here? ---- In ;the pas sngl: at Lakhani

Chc.mber:J .

And Ntc..t did you tell him about thc objects

of thi3 orcani:::; .. tion? - --- Thr..t th objects were to

fiC1:.t th0 Govcrnm\Ont by me:;,.ns of violence .

(15

( 20

What "13. did you tell him? - --- I told him (25

that if he hgr ... e:d , Wt; \'I'ould have our O~im section at

Hammarsdalc and that he: i.ohould assitt to find !"l ·mbers

for thi8 3t.ction , of til .... peopl\.! living in that area,

HG.mmarsd.J.l ... .

Yihat did he say? --- - Ho agreed .

You ~old h~rn about thic organisation , about

thi~ sccriJt organisation that was to fight the Government

(30

by / •• _ .• • • •

•

•

•

•

- 238 - S . T . Mbanjwa .

by violence befor0 h~ had ~gr~ d to bacoD~ a member?

YllS , bl!for:l h..: had agru..!d to b ... camo a member b~cauBe I

had got to know him, we work\;;d tog:\,;ther .

Had you frc !u ... ntly b·:fort;; this , addressed

moctinLS , mad.] 3ta tt..:m,:;nts about op. losing the GovcrnmtJnt? (5

---- Yes .

On th~ oc casion of th~ 'stn.y at home I strike

,-fhi ch wa:; supposed to have boon arrang!;ld by one t

t1nndolo. , w(!rlJ you very much in favour of it? ---- Yes .

So it ','las nothing neVi for p"ople to hear you (10

t lking about oppo~ing the GovGrnu~nt? ---- Y~St I spoke

like that at meLtings .

L:....khnni Ohambc..ro, is an office building where

many p opl h ..... VE; officl.!9? ---- YeS .

Yuu hav_ told Uii. I think . that S . A. C. T . U. (15

hs.u it officl..o:'l tller~ - 3011th Africnn COnGress of Trad e

Unions? ---- Y ... s , South African C0r r~S3 of Trad~ Unions .

:lhilnt you .. ad bCl.,;n \Jorkin~r at Lnkhr>ni Chru!Lbt;rs

for tlhis Congress . ho" ",any timeS bns i ~ 'been raided by I the police':' ---- '~n.ny tim0s; I don ' t rertcmb...;r. ( ... 0

Uou 11y by members of the Spcci~l Branch? ----I That 1J so .

And is it correct that tht officialo 01 the

30uth African Congr..;ss of Trade Unions got' to know most

of th~ ~unb~rs ef thd Sp~cinl Branch in Durban? ---- (25

O.'r . \lilson adds) .

,r ~ll I S"iy ' know ' I menn know by sight? ----

Yes .

Il.Jld you kne:·" th..:ir namt;s? ---- ilot all of

them . 00

Mo~t 01' tHt:!I!'., though? ---- Not nIl of them .

Nh·n you addressed me\.-tingo , didn ' t you

point/ ••.•..

•

•

•

•

- 239 - S.T . Mban jwa.

point out to on~ another what members of th~ Special

Branch were there? ---- There Wcr0 European ' s there .

Sometimt;3 thc:rc w~re Europl:!ans that you thought it waB

a m~mber of the Specinl Branch , and it waa not , except

those thl~ t you kner:.

On thio occasion when you spoke to Nkosi, (5

did he sugcest accuGwd No .14 or did you suggest? ----

No on~ ViaS !3ugcest~c1 on that occaJion .

Did you I:lec:t rrICo:;i again later? ---- We

worked at thu samu place . vi<: used to sec one another

every day , (10

And did he tell you anythinG there? Did

you discuss this lrgnn13ation agnin? --- - rle used to

dincus:;) tl.iu mntt""r in the train or Vlhen we got off the

train ilhen there ,"",rel no other peopl!..: prescnt .

'/rlwn ,.'(1S th, name of accused No .14 first (15

mcntinl1 ,.:I'" '-... ,.., l-to told I!l~ th£'o t hC! had .found

T.idhlalosc to be n r,)crui t .

IIl.at did you tell him tc: do then? ---- I

R!Jkcd him to l.'xplain to ~,:dhl&lose the obj(;cts of this

V/Lc-n did you fir.Jt sec ~ldhlalose in connt;ction

./i th t}1; <:! '1"'''',., ... -1., .... ; ,.,,,,'" --._- On thl.: day of th~ demonstra­

tion at my hon , on the 3und",y evening .

Can you tell uo whC'n that Nas? --- - I don ' t

(20

rl.r.l. ... tab;..;r tr .. ~ cx::.ct date, but .1:3 fa.r us I know it was (25

tOW'lrd3 thi... end of ::; ... pt ober. last year .

1 ..... '1dy told the Court cvcry-

tl'1i nO" .... t.,...... . ~laprcn!Jd ut that ~p..,.,.,nn~trc.tion? - --- Yes .

Hu·.; Jid you nrrrmel.. for all these p...:ople to

be there? I a~k,d Ilkosi to toll ·.ldhhlose , I (30

wrote a letter to ·,j • .::yiwn, asking him to inform Zulu .

And asking tb....:ID that w,- should meet at my home on that

Sunday/ " . " ., .

•

•

•

•

.. ..:: to - s . :r . Tc1ba.njw:l. •

Sunday eVl.'ning .

HON did you address your ll:ttv:r to Meyi Y/&?

---- I uddrc!?(iec) it ";0 a box numbe:r . I don ' t know what

hap·-'~n!..:d to th\. addr,~39 .

What l~aM did y0u put on it? I put the

name uf !11 . Mcyi WD. .

Did you ~no',l that hi ~ ini tial ·,'1 S 'l,P? - --­

He: had given me hL, nddr0ss tht day I 3poku to them i n

the presence of Zulu .

Did he t...:ll you thut tois name 'I/·.s .ITatthc!Vls

~\!eyiHa? - - - - On th .... pi ·C, if pup, r '16 hnd only put

1M ' •

You kn0\": I.io n~n\... 'hdn I t you? He t','9,.S the

(10

Vico...: - Chui -Uln of. th or; .ni tiOl of 'hich you were;

assistant ~o,.;crlJtary';· - - - - I "','QUI , . .~CCU9tOCl\,;d to calli ng (15

hin by hi9 chrL"'t ti'In nn..m..... . I CC 1 1 .... u _i.'~J b.y his surname .

Vha t / •• •. . . . .

•

•

•

•

241. S . T . 1,Ib~njw3'

1m. HL30!J, 'w1h'1t r):'1Y 'If the weck ,iid you wr i tc to him?

---- I don ' t r Cr1(,.MbLr tht. n.'1y , but it was 'It the beginning

of tho week . I 'i,] th t 00 thet r lould pet the letter in

tine. so th' t he. VlOul( ccme on the :)undny .

But 'IOU dio\n ' t know /'It th'1t tine '.Ihl.ro Zulu, (5

oousod No . 16 , lived or >corked , rlio you? --- - Until this dc,v

I lon ' t know v/here hl.: \l ork£d or ,/ht re hI.. St~V9 . I only

kr.cw that he was in :::'1, tE:n~f'ri tzburg .

How did you !rne" +hnt writing to l1eyiwn, why rlid

you think th:lt would h<l you to .kc oonhot with Zulu? (10

---- I h~d L:..1yiwn I s r!ddl'''S~ . The rr.ngerr,(;nt 'lias that they

woul'] cont ..... ct one :1notb .... r .

Ar e you surc?- --- Yes .

,/l-:cn you hrl fii~,;t ::.I(.(.n thLdt. two .... /h~t dia you tell

thwlll !'1bout this orc:'lni.:;r.tion? ----On th\.,; firut ocoesion (15

th ... y infortlcd me th-,.t th ... y h'_d b..:!. n ;;;c:.nt by :hnnr9.se .

Vlh.,t "id vou tell ther.J? - - -- I told thorn that I

W1.nt 'JErnberG for the uTTI.r::ontmICDiz"Nc " .

Yes •

Die. vou tell t,.·'T!l.I;l'J.t thi;.;l ore~tnis:ltion W3S? ---­

(20

~/lnt did you tell then about fuis organisation?

---- I tol.l theM trot it ,I':lS n ',;'inp. of this orgnnis.'ltion

th.-..t -';';J fiehtine - it H~S n wine of the.: A. N. C. that W'18

fichtinr.; the government by violence: .

I.nd Vlh~t tlse (li1 vou tell thcm? - --- I told them (25

th'1t thiG,'-I:'1S sccrtt ; th"'l.t thEY should not tell '1l1yonc

th'lt they Wf;rw memb(rs .

Did thcy ~rc~ to bcconc ~~nbcrs?----Ycs .

Did you know th'1t ncithl:r of these two mc:n h,.'lU

evt;r been nenbc:r:.J of the: A. N. C. ?----I "'id not know th'1t {30

tr y hnd ever bc..;!n MCf'"bors of the: A. . N.C.

You didn ' t kno,,! "nything ~bout their political

l~nnings, / ••..•

•

•

•

•

242 . S.T.Mb~njwa:

lcaninr,s, politic.1 T'lStb did you? - ---I didn ' t enquire

whet their politic[;l foolings wer!..;, but I got an idea of

their pOli tic~l feclin",s .,t the moetings of t he Geor gedale

and District L'1udormers ' Associ.. ... tion thnt they were anti-

govcrnncnt .

They w(..r(. anti bi.:ing evicted , weren ' t they?---­

(Mr . Wilson adde:) They were G(F'inst the oXJlropri,~tion of

Lmd, wer""D I t they?----If the Sta.t0 wants to expropriate

lend nnd you refusc , is tlmt not fighting ngainst tho

government? (10

You r:l~o !';lcnt1oncd in your evidence A. sEcond

occ~6ion on which vou g~vc instruction: wh~n W~B that?---­

Vlh It kind of instruction?

I iMagine snoot~ge~ -- -- It wa.s during the first

h~lf of December Inst VU'l.r .

·ilh~t d.id you t(;:-~ch thcT!1?--- - The use of dyn'J.l'!li te

the dny WL wt;nt to this pylon.

So you consid ,':,cd th£.t to be 'In instruction, did

you?---- I I m not !.lui te cl ... '.'1r 'ilhether the question is nannt

to be: ')n instruction or a dc~onstr~'tion?

( 15

( 20

Well I hnvc '1. n0te of your evidence suying that

you instruct(;d your SEction on ~nother occ'lsion . I want

to know 'l.bout th~t .----hft~r the fourth ceGting of the

Heeion:11 Command with Ronnie I wes instructed by Ronnie

th~t thcy should w~tch tr-ins, where the Molotov bombs (25

could be usc:.d .

Th""'t ' s v/11(;n you toltJ us tlh.:y w~re toltl to watch

goods tr'l.ins? ----yLs .

But r 'm net t~lking qbout thnt. r 'm tnlking nbout

your c.vidcnc£:; th'lt y0U snir) you, WGre t'lught by Bruno (30

Mtolo so you would be -blc to teach others .----ycs, I was

taught by Bruno Mtolo .

You/ • •..•

•

•

•

•

243 . 3.T . Mbanjwa:

You then s~1d you t .... usht others, like your oVin

9uction,for cx~~plc? ----Ye5 .

And you told t, c Court in det.~i1 "bout the one

cnse . You thl.'n s'lid: III instructod them on f).nothor occasion . II

----y(;9 .

Now I w~nt to know nbout this oth~r occasion on

which you instructed thcm. ---- It w~s at the end of NovembEr

when Bernard llkosi to 1'] 1'10 th3t h" held found Jaft'1 Luthuli.

ilh"t hopplned?----I askeo Bruno to eive me the

rn. t cri31 so thr.t I coul' 6iv(;. n s~cond d(;monstr'tion. (10

'IIhy did it tnke you so long to remember this?---

I didn ' t take long . I must listen to the question ; think

,bout it; "no then reply .

I askorl you 'lbuut 'J. sGcond instruction , you told

un '1bout W'1 ching t;'Jods tr'lins , 'lbout dyn'1TT!iting pylons , (1 5

now you cone. b'1ck to this other occasion . Now tk;;ll r.J.C

wr..nt h'1PPL;ncd on thid sC!cond ace ~::1ion'? ---- ( 'Jourt intcr­

vLncs)

MILNE , J . P. : You say thc.t you "sked Bruno Mtolo to give you

th~ m~teri~l to give thL second ncmonstr~tion? ----Yes, (20

.nd that the domonstr tion should be on the Sunday thnt

I mtntioncd to him .

llcntioned to whom? ----To Bruno .

Whnt hnpponcd? - - --Aftcr th~t I wrote a lett er to

r,kyiwc , th3 t he should inform Zulu to come to my home on (25

th~ Sund~y ~v~ning , tr.c Sunday th~t I mentioned to Bruno .

MR . VlILSON: What Sund ly WClS thnt?----I don ' t remember

which pt:.rticul '"!r Sund:J.Y but it ,"J:lS to\"I'1rds the end of

rIovc:mb(.r .

I w~nt you to try to remember . Even though

it w:":s '1 ll"'lrticulnr Sun:]"1Y th'1.t you mentioned to Bruno?

----I don l t l'eml.mber .

Right! •.•.•

(30

•

•

•

•

244 . S . T. Mbnnjwa:

Right , you wroto to those people: what happened

then?----I told Nkosi to tell Mdhlnloso und Luthuli also

to come to my home on that Sunday ev ening.

At this stage you hn.1. a full section without thl?

people who W{;;rc in r~2ri tzburg , accused 15 and 16?---- (5

Yes .

Did these people come to your kr nal? ----Ycs .

At what time? --- - Bc;ginning of dusk .

And wh~t did ;Tau do? ----I showed th,;m the mixing

of the powder . Luthuli Yv:1S there, who vms - it was (10

thr. first tiMe th'lt he nttendcd such c. meeting . I showed

them how to mnke: n petrol bomb and a bottle bomb . After

that we went to this pluntntion whore I went t o show them

how it expl~des .

Did you shm·" tht.m?--- - YE.:f5 . ( 1 5

Wh~t was tht:. w(;otber like that 3unday night?----

It was Qverc"'.st 'lnd slight drizzle .

Wo.s it '1. misty , reiny night? - ---Yes .

That wo.s the.: only othbr demonstr3tion you ever

g'1VC to your section , VI:16 it? ----y~s , npart from the (20

explosives .

Vhs th:1t the c:cmonstration you eaVE- thE::m on th&

rl)ilw~y line betweo.:.n Ho.mmlJ.rsdale and Georgedale? ---­

(Mr . \/ilsan "dds) Clifflhlc, sorry.-- --Yes .

Now I wA.nt to :!,'j back to the first cct of

BCLbot.:1gc you told us 'Jbout . This is cutting the signal

\"{i r as . You wc.r~ told by Ko.srils that this had to be

110nc on '1 oer t '1in Sunj;:y? - - --yes .

And did you unu~rst~nd this to be a command from

(25

the highEr "uthority?----I Vias told by Ronnie Kus)'ils , (30

no onc elsE. .

Anr1 he w~s a person above you , wasn I t he?----I

don l t/ •• • • .

•

•

•

•

245 . SoT . Mbanjwa:

don ' t know wh~r~ h~ h~d ~ot it from ;

He wc-a '1 p ... r, (, .bCVL you, W:13n ' t hc? ----y, .. :s .

This w~s tho f'rst act of sabot"!,,o tMt you had

bc~n ~~kcd to cnrry out on ycur own, wnsn ' t i t ? Or csr ry

out -t ~11?----Yo3o (5

It ~:ns t... firdt cb'"':nce you had of rroving yourself

:.9 ::l cl...ction lc'1d(;r? ----Y8s .

You VH.:r~ tol~ GOyne time before th\" Sunday in question,

wercn ' t you? ----ycs .

"bcut how Ion!" b'.foro?- - --It r.l3Y have been the (10

/.Ionj:y or the Tursdny before thnt Sunday .

':hy oid you '10 nothing Hhntsoev.r "bout getting

" p~ir cf pliers for Y',urs61f until the Sunday in question?

---- I nndc ...... tt(;1:1~1t<- , but I did not g ... t n pnir .

:>0 y .. 'u l'1c.:,~n to S:1Y you coulon I t h::.vc fuund a (15

p ..... ir f ,,'lil.r.3 in th. fiv\.> (hye beforw?---- I mil.de attempts,

~nd I {~id not .

Did you t(:ll r-:l1srils you h;1C!n ' t b£.:(m t"blc to gt;t

~ny? ---- I "lid not tell him bcc''"1.USC I elid not see him in the

c~ur~e of those '1' ys . (20

Did you Qsk Bruno to got some for you? ---- Yes , I

1icl , "".nd h(.; told mt.:: hL 'id not ':~VL C large puir of

pliers .

You din ~sk Bruno?----ycs .

~'ow :TIuch does ". p'li r of pliers cost , do you (25

know?---- I rl0 not knm/ . I ' v( never bought a pair .

You nLVl.:r h.::d one n.t your houst::? ----No, not cvon

this JflY ~ P' ,ir of pli r:, woulJ b~ found in my home 0

dhy :lid you J ciJe to r.lcct at Zulu ' s krJ.:ll on

this Sund:.y? ----B .... c .... usc th.t -;;'15 tL mObt centr:'ll

~pot •

(30

You 'lidn ' t 1mO·.1 if Zulu would bo home th~ t SundflY

did/o 0 • 0 0

•

•

•

•

246 . S . T. Mbnnj wa:

(lie y0u? ---- I di\~n ' t knorr if he would be there , but I had

postl.d n 1(. ttur .

So your whole pl,1ns GGp.:..n"l;d on the. fnct of

mectinp .... t Zulu ' s \'Ihcn you didn ' t know if Zulu was there

or not?--- - I :1idn ' t kn0" ',h:t he would be there . I re- (5

lie,1 on the lette r th.:t I hnd posted . If I arrived there

~nd he.:: w.'1sn ' t the ro w::.ll it WQul(l be ~ CrlSO thr~ t hI;; is not

thcrl;.. , but if he is h.;; lIQuId bL there .

How f·')r is Zulu ! s kr~!ll froI!! your k r anl?----About a

mile.. . (10

hnd how fr~r is Zulu r s kr3'11 from Nkosi ' s house?---­

About the; S :TTl(: 4.ist~nc(:.

An. fror.1.'I[dhl~l.)sc l s? ----About the snmc r.iGt:'1.nce .

fl.r:"'~ fro!'l Me;yiwr? ----Thl,..y live quite close to onc

~nothcr . ~~)

lmd hOH f'J.r is i'kosi ' s kr;.~l from yourz..? - - - - It is

fUrthtr th':n fro!"'! Zulu ' ~, to M :yiw'J. ' s ~

But Zulu 'mi~ ~: ... yi';::1, you 8'1", liVE; clost. tog~thEr?

----y~J .

So t1kosi liv~s clos...: to you? ----Ho, it is SOMC (20

disto,ncc to rkosi ' s .

How f·'.r is it :fran your kro."l to Hkosi I s?---­

I cstim'-tc the rlist'l.Occ at about l-~ miles .

imd .'oul."] you soy tht.: sam£' to MrlhlalosG ' s kr!J.nl?

---Yt.;S .

Anrl do you hnvc.: to pnss Zulu ' s kr-w.l to get f r om

yenX' kr'l.~l to NImsi ' s md M~hl,'1losels? ---- I go '11ong a

ro~d which i.:J quite J, dL:;t .... ,nc(; fron Zulu ' s hOMe . I don ' t

pnss the ~:ctu':l hone.

(25

You s"y you met ·-;t Zulu ' s kr'la.l on the Sunc1a.Yt (30

'":11 fiv~ of you? ----y~s .

!.n,l you then c1;:ci:1ed th'"'t there was no need for

!Ilcyiwa/ •.••••

•

•

•

•

247 . S . T . Mbanjwa:

Mcyiw~ or Zulu to do ~nj~hing? ----Ycs . They were left out •••

(Mr . \/i180n into"!'vcnc.s ',nd part of reply unintelligible . )

SCI you h'lc1 written to him :lsking hin to come down

from M..'1ri tzburg to fintl thst they woren I t wonted? ----It was

necessary for them to be present bec~use it vle.s q meeting( 5

hc.:ld by the section . It was decide:d !J.t th'1t Meeting thnt

they should rcm'1.in out of it .

MILJ'..'"E , J . P . : It was c~l::cid(dl vvhnt? ----It was not - I - it was

!'.0t my instruction.

Whnt was it you S'1Y wns decided '1t thnt mecting?(lO

----Th:!t Mnhl~losc ""'nr. :'(09i would go to Hnmmnrsdnle ,

GkcrB~dalc Station , ~n~ I would go to Hammnrsdnle . They

';ler not told -::ny dutif:s .

MR . WILSOi'! H,'.d you SH:;ll Zulu "'.nd Mc'yiw'1 earlier thl1t

d'1y?-- - - I (lon I t rcmcrrbE...r '.Jh(;thl;r I rad .

Didn ' t you attl~nr~ D. l1ccting of the L'lnc1owners I

i,ssocintion held on tl."t (~:::!.y? -----I don I t rd!lCmbcr that

rh~ l. tinf; .

( l5

I put it to V(JU thcr(; W'lS ~ nc:€:ting of a L:md ­

ownc.:rs ' .Association on that Sundny?---- (Court intervenes) (20

MIL~·fE ! J . P.! Is it b(;ine ndtlitt(;d th3.t theri.: '11['.8 a

meeting by these people ~t the bouse of Zulu?

MR . Y'IL20N: No .

MILt'E , J . P . : On th,t Sunday .

MILnE , J . P.: You Gro i"entifying the Sundnv by that

J~y, ~r.n l t yeu?

MIL V,'ILSON: M' Lord t ! G'J.te is gi VE:n in the ind ictment

(25

~s to the J tt en which this is ~ll~gBd to have occurred .

MILNE, J.P . : Pcrh."'ps you l d bettor rut it in thnt form . (30

r.!R . WTL20J'T: This Wr"\S on the 14th of October that it is

nllcged th~se \/ircs vJ.. .. rC: cut . I put to you thr>. t on the

14th/ . .•••

•

•

•

•

248 , s . T . llb3nj,;a:

14th of OctobLr '\ l!!e(;ti:1!" of the L"'ndow!.~rs ' A5S0cic.tion

wns hcld7---- lt i9 po iLlc th".t I did not ~ttcnd th<!t

n..:cting.

You w(:r~ the ,'3dist"nt scort. tl1ry ~t th \t eta~e

You would h-Vl b ... en notifit.:d of ~.ny such J'!leeting?

----It is possible th t ~ mesanee could h~vc been loft at

nv hor.l(;. "'-~nd beine r.-ney 1 cou l,~n ' t hav .. g()t it .

But you WLr~ ~t hom~ thnt mornine , weren ' t you? ----

Or thu Sunrl'"ty morninC' , yes . I arrivLd h~MC on th~t

1'10-.'1 coinrT on to thib wire cuttine; this V/fl.S the

first :ct UU.t yl ur :;;",ction h'1d p-.;rforned wf'l.sn t t i t?----

II'1C it ........ .. . "" ost icl'ort ...... nt to '111

should c".rry it JUt propLrly? ----yl;s .

f you th-:.t you

Did you liocuss it. in soJ'''. :lct'lil :1a to ,"hOlt

you shoul'~ do? ----It v. , only 'kci.!ll '1 to cut the sien ..... 1

~irLs , tt t is rll .

(10

Y~cl, you dis(;U;;:d .... d ,.,ho should do 'IIh'lt? ----It (20

W"'~S ~ .cidc~ th-:t rkosi n~ Mf1hlalosc v/ould ""0 to GLorgl::dr-le,

cut tht ::3i-n'-..l wirE.s .n.l I would 1':0 to H-;'I'!'"'marsn!Jle .

l.nd thl.. !TlCrnb\..TJ of 'rour acction Hore still very

in ... xp\.-ri..:ncrd rt th t tiIl'c, \/cT",n ' t th£y? --- - Thcrt.: is no

cxpLril.l"c ... Tl.quir"d in cuttinc ""!. wirt .

But tr r ... i. l"Xpl;ri!..:ncc: rE:quir..;d to hnVG the

nLTVL to cor" it .cts f G b1 t"lr; .... , Lm ' t th. r .... ? ---- It W'lS

onl:! . r:l.~ttcr of looltin," out th~t no )nc S(.(':3 you, '1nd

'IOU ':l~i t f0r d' rkn£3., !'Ii cut thl.. ~vir(; .

~ir f pliLrs SO you cculd

c ..... rry out Yt,;ur T·":,rt?----"{ 5 .

I.nd th n you s-;y that thG we.,th£r turrJ d d.~mp

sol ... .

(25

(30

•

•

•

•

249 .

so you decided not to '0 ~nything? ---- I did not do anythin/J .

You wcrL pl~toon leader, n section loader in this

or6~nisntion?----Ycs.

Yc u ' a bcc:n ordered to do this on this PQrticulnr

nieht?----ycs .

Yeu had ~h,nt t1:1..; m",mbers of your section out to

do it? --- - y(..s .

D, yr·u rOOllly SCly btc~usc it had got [l bit damp

that you were put off? --- - ycs. it /Jot damp Clnd I mede up

( 5

my mind not to g0 . (10

Ye t a littl. l,it lc.tl".r ';'ihen you were demonstrating

petrol hl'mbs Y01.1 ~ i c~n ' t 'lind going out on 0. r'1iny, wet

night? ----I Jid ~~t .

';/cr'~ y u frilflt,·nCc. of caine;: cut en this night?

----u () . Or iC' Y u not H:'nt to '1dr.-:it h:;vine: ~one qnythin!·

where y, U C"1n 1 t ir:pltc"t,-, (,ther p .... oplc in i t? ----I (1 idn ' t

10 8.nyt!ling .. If I lVG I • ul t) htlv~ snirJ th":!t I cut the

':ires.

( 15

So the only rocson you give for your fClilure (20

to c';rry out y:->ur first .. ssi.~nL;t) duty was th~~t it wns c

d~mp night?----yes .

Yeu rt:portcd to '!{csrils on l~ondr'y; did you r,,-port

to him thnt thE cpt:rntion had beEn carrico out success -

fully? --- - I only MC.de 0 report to him that the wires (25

h~:d bOLn cut .... t G;:.oreerln.l€.., qnd tInt wns Elll .

DLl YLlU ttll hi! thct you hnr. not f,'C'nc out ·~nd

Jl'nl ".nythin'-~ bLC"USC it me '1 c1o.mp night? ----Nc .

'1/<::.r' you nS!l';.nt.,~ of i t? - --- It 'lid not c..ntcr my

minn to tell hiM. (30

Tr.id W':!.;,3 '1 pcrti 11 f'1ilurl.: t vl['Sn ' t it? You had

mumt tc cut thE;. -.>'ires in tHO pL~c\;:s? ----It ~n~sn l t £1 total

ffJ.ilurl.o, the wires VI~r\.:. Gut. It was rnly :'), f::1.ilure on

my / •••• •

•

•

• •

•

250 . S. T. Mbnnjwu,

my pert bcc~ust I didn ' t go to Hnnm~r9d~le .

The instructil e you hrJ.d been given, according to

yuur l,;vidcnc(.;, W:l.S to 1, k fer sign'll wire '1t Gcoreednlc 'lnd

Yes . (10

Dill youA"\nythin flbout th(: wirC:9 at Hnmrtarsd'11e

th'1t you h'1d t)ccn tel,] t:c.. cut? ----T" report ,',hcrE:?

To K~srils? ----I lnly 1~dc q report to him th~t

th~ wir(';s hod b0~n cut ~t Gcorecdalc .

'-11:'£ , J.P. vh r , ....... V(; yl U thE.: instructions (10

th t th0y .v~r· t(" be cut t Hr:l!1!!l'lr3d~lc :'18 wcll? ----Ronnie

K'1.srils.

':Jh(~n i M y( U rL urt to hi .... tr-t the wires had bc\,;n

cut .t r.~cr~ci l(,;?----D~rinf- th~ b~TinninG of the next week

I B ~w hif'l. (15

W ... ll nov; .3urcly 11 ... Dust h"vc: ''''sked you whnt hod

t rr-\.:nGrl '1bout his instr'lcti ns to cut the! Hires ''It H~T"T1~rD-

nllc?----Ht:.. ~Ji In ' t ~sL 'I. th..,r the" h'1.d bUE;n cut nt both

pl~ccs"

Th"!t s~ .... r[s ,",xtr ;or·:Hn'1ry th'lt n cO!'!1l"'1"'.n:ier should(20

g":' vo instructions to gc to t'dO pI ~cc~; you report ":!b0ut

onc -;,nd hI.. doesn r t eVt;n osk Rbout th(;: other? ----HE probnbly

"li'ln't r-avlis(; th'lt I only nE.nti0ne~1 r,(!orgcd~le .

Wh"t sort of cO!!lM'1nd",r ni'i you think he w'J.s? A

n"_n who .... oul 'n l t ~,:n('lw ' ... ·h~~t he h'3d heard fror.l you? ----

Ht: w"'!.s t;'. p(;r,-~on who ['.lw~vs spokE ve;rv hurriedly find in

n hurry to 1cav' • porh' p~ only

rlIR . ';lIlSO: : Did 'fOU r:lisl .... 1 hir by ... a":.ying" r"d(J ' vc cut

th. wirl!;J? II---- I only 9~,i1 thE; wir .... s h'l.j been cut a.t

3 ction l~~der 1.ft .... r .n opcr~tion you hnd to report to

K'lsrils/ • • . . .

(25

(30

•

•

•

•

251 . S.T . Mbanjwa:

K':.srils - yeu h:'ld to r<.; )urt to your pl'1tQon leader who

was ycursolf, i'lI11 he h.'v' to report to K'1srils "bout the

success -r f .ilure f ~ p r tion? ----Th.t is BO .

1;,n 1 you S:lY it l'!(,vur entered your he"'!. to "tell

him thr:t h'llf your opc;r tion han bOo..;n ... fnilur e becnus€ (5

of your f"'.ilur~? ----Thrt is the only report I node to

hiM, "'.nd he li~' not '.sk 11.u whether it W'1S successful in

You hl1d rI.Gl!iv .. Jf1 r'1pld pronotion in this organis -

tion, 'n( on 'ycur fir .... t 'Jpero.tion you had be n n

conplotL '"!.nl utt~r f~ilurc . Diun ' t you think you should

7 . F:::; . :

11-. C

J . 1' .

' L"'r...li, I ttin~ th at t T"1..;nt th't he hnd bt:en

n-1 utt r f .il,lrt " . . .• (r~urt intt;rvl.n(.s)

uzt 1 'V~ t ~ t! the witn~~~ .----M~y

in? Thl;l'L <,,'").8 '111 int rruptinn .

(10

( 15

MR . WILGl'P' Yeu · " j~ ..... ':!\..iv, cronction in this org~n-

i..JL ... tinn nl ,n Y"'ur fir t oPl. .. r'1ticn y'::"u h1. r1 bccn '1. cOMplete

n~ ut~cr f 11ur~ . ni n ' t vou tlrtnk y ~ ~h0ul~ report this

tc vrur COl '1:1.f1cr? ----I mSll ' t pror~otinJ1 rnyu If to those (20

th t ~romot~ J >OIl,: tc tr.c ~e poats . - --- It -l':Y h .... vC: been ny

i .ult tt, t I 11'1n ' t t..:.l1 hiT'"': but I just l""1.UC "! r( 'ort to

}'Ii'" •

Ihr1.t strired P.1c. '19 cxtr'lorlin'1ry 10 th!.t (25

pi,; rs on ;/he ,'I :J \1 W'1yo ir. a

hur :...~y . IhLn yeu 1'r~d \~ , <'. ort to "' ,,~M thr.t !nythinf" h~d

b ... c.n I" c 3o,.; ..... ...,CJ v >''' nlo,.;' j m !"l1shcti ff. He

W' cn ' t pt..r:..on t~ '1. t: en ro' lV ry 1d,il '15 to how it

I' , , , n ~ '10 • (30

:,IR . rIL,~O:: D1·in ' t yot< ~t r 'iscovE;:r th'lt it v/'.s

K~srils ' utv to ~1~)

opl.r:.tion! .•• • .

•

•

•

•

252 . S. T. Mben jwa :

opcr~1;i(m 1n.1 rl,.;por t t h ~UCCl:US or f-;i l u TG of t h8. t

('PC r ltian to th..., n(.fion"'l c'":o':l!:l'1nd? - --- Th"'l.t was his 1uty .

Yeu S'ly th':'t cn the ~~on,j.y nc r ning 'lftl: r t t.i s

Jun .y ni !.t you bn' r '.~.1

W';9 t h. t? ----H llf 'PGS t six in the (Go m ine: .

Is t ~t tile t rin yo u usu 'lly c:!ueht home f t e r

p(;n:1ing tl ''''' ... Glee-nds ~t H .oo:l r so:'11c? You c ~ught b ilCk

to Durb, ... n 'lft ... r sp .... n rl inf2: the wc(;kE.nds f'lt H~.nr:nrsd·\lc?---­

Y..:~ .

.n.nd you l.;c Y y!ll oS r.' ..... CCUSI d No . 1) :'l.nd 14 on t h-:. t ( l O

tr~ 1n? ----Yc8 .

• ir,~: tho t r :in cr~wil(;d with pcuple gcing b'l Ck t o

Du r b n ~ft\ r tru 'i/cL}cn~? ----""'ot full , but ther e v/t: r e n'lny

p op1 •

An' V<)U s.y tl t vou cpeke to ~ccu"cd ~·o . 1 3 ( 1 5

t~;, r r ~b('1ut th se "',c t c f s:.bo t :'l.C...:? ---- Ycs .

"'hy 1 ~ i yr·u "1L th t? ---- I vrmtc 1 to know how tht.,y

r;ct on ·,:itt. the -,,'(" r k .

Y.'u .n' ,\;: , ... ere: t og thc r, Boing to Lrlkhnni

ell .nbc.r.3 , 'I ',' r n ' t yl~u? ----BlC_;US( tht.TE: 1.5 .n Clpportun- (20

ity .n 1 I "'hj~,pcr,-, 1 to i ..

1)0 you think it /,.s s'1fc to discuss 1.ct s of

s_;b·'t'" 713 cor:.ri ttc..i by thic- s ... c r Lt or go.nisJ.tion in '1

r ilv.'1Y tr iil? - --- It " s ' t 1 long ~iscu. o3i m .

y,)u t~ (l ',ILr .; .... tting :Jhi.-pc r in[ thL: r e whe r e (25

_ny one; c(\ul-J at t; you? --- - 'fhc. r c werl- oth..:- r puoplt. i n t he

tr'1in .1 i scu..,sin(! th .. i r O'iln llt'f"!i r s un' r."'king : nl,isc .

T" :c . 'T~" ~."'~ STA12)",' 1)01[111 :

TilE GO'JllT TA:::ES "'HE ,HORT ,J)JOUpn.:ENT :

THE! • • • •.

(30

•

•

•

•

- 2·3 -

THE COUJ~ iE3T.f"::-- AT 11 • . W 1-• • to

ON R:::SUllPTIOrr :

S. T. hThanjwa .

oOlOHO!' : , /.lBANJ ,1:,; (;i tncso "till vn 0<1 th) •

CROSS - __ ,;(A,IrrLl~ !3Y PR o lIL30N: (Continued) .

You h IVI.,; told UJ bout nn occasion when you (5

wl..:nt ',:1 th Druna .1tolo -:nd J..;rry KUT:l 10 to some pylon

n,.J.r N~~'I GI...!'!nSl.ny? - - -- Y 8 .

Jerry KUI!l<.:.lo -,Ud or 0.; of your s.;;ction leaders

Lt th~ tim~, I think you l v~ told us? ---- Y~G .

And iJ it corrJct , n3 I ' ve understood your (10

\,;vid..:ncc, ttat r.ny in3tructi~ns to "im should have

come: throuGh you? ---- y. s .

Yuu hnd m: t h ... '1!'''_ nythinc- about this visit

to th 10n until you ,/I.T... :r.u t go oy Bruno ;1tolo?

--- - y

Did YJU 8..;iK Bruno ~, tolo Hhy J...:rry KU!!lalo

had bo n bTl,u -ht in? ---- No .

Diu you ack Drane ,tt .;.t "'\;lotion was going to

do thi'cl? ---- tIo .

(1,

")16n I t you ""sk h.lr nyt. ing '"(bout it? ---- (20

Yo •

. ILNE, J .P. , Did this 03.."1 !itolo , hc..v .. a rwGulnr

occu} ;ion ap'.rt fron his ilctivi ti s insid th~ Mkonto­

·,'/~~iz';u? ----~, had an officI..: in L. :i{hani Chambers ,

h ..... '.IaE; tL .... ,jt,.cr. to.ry of th_ Africllr. lIunicipnl liorkt.;r.3 I

Uni on .

.A .. "1Y otho..;r occupation? --- - I din not know

of rlny oth,.;r ... ork .

T{n:.rils, Gid Ii,.; (l:'V lry r'_eu1ar outside

jnb'- --- - Th la..:-t I -mON of 1.,.; W""~ ({orkin£; at Lever

Broth"' .... 3 . Af...:r th: .. t I do) nut KnO\: •

.la. h\3 in r ... ;ulur cmploymunt during the time

tha t/ ' , . , , , , . , , .

Do

•

•

•

•

- 254 - S . T. Mbanjwa .

that you WGr0 associated with him as a member of the

Mkontowesizwu? --- - As far as I could Bee he was no

lonGer in employment bocau3c he always used to turn up

wher(; I worked .

Any time of the day? ---- The times used to (5

vary bt:tYlcen 3, 4 or :; o ' clock .

In the afternoon? ---- In the aftl:.:rnoon ,

ye8 .

MR . ,IILSON : Kasrils , in fact used to work for an

advertising agencY 1 called Lintll~ , didn ' t he? ---- I

don ' t know . All I know is that h..::.: us~d to work for

Lever ' s .

Didn ' t he as from the bl:ginning of this year

b.aCOffitJ a full timb student "It the Natal University? ----

(10

I don ' t ]ClOll . I ncvlo;r di£>cuSSL!d th_~t matt0r with him . (15

And Billy Nair was employed , wasn ' t he?

Hv W~3 th0 s(..cro...:tary of tht..: South A£rican Congr<=ss of

Trad8 Uniooo .

On thi3 occc1;Jion when !:lruno took you and

J orry KUr.J.alo to N\:.:';; GUrIlIlny , you say you Clidn I task

h i m anything c.bout this op(;ration? ---- No .

,/hl3n you got to the pylon , didn ' t you ask

him \·/hy you had come they,:;? ---- No , I did not . When

Wt- arrivcu ~t this pylon , I thought thut Vi...! had come

to C"bServL th~ pylon .

And dh6n hc took out a piece of string and

m0lisur.:!o th_ pylon , didn ' t ;you ask him ' ·.lhat is that

for? ' ---- No, I did not .

At this stc:..~ ..... you had had no training in

th~ Ud8 of c:xplosivcs, had you? ---- No , I had not .

Sur<.;;ly you wond0r;;;c why you had come to

look ')t the pylon then? ---- He was the per son vri th the;

(~O

(25

00

knowledge/ • ••••

•

•

•

•

- 255 - 0 ••• flbanJwa .

knt..:l.:dCe b cauee lw wo. ~ instructor .

YL , but 11 you l_d be 'n inptruct~d in W~d

pI:. rl..'l bOr.'O:l dd simil~L' thin~s? - - -.- Thnt i. so • .

")0 vnu G Y ~,:)U wir.J .... ly ,1 toed end 1 ""kt.:d at

hin me surin .d th bi t of trine Ilnd n""v(!!' t hO!l,rht

to ~ll·1uir. for Ihnt purpo~.\.: he HU daine- thin? - - -- I

!,.lid not ..I. ~;: hit "ihy he ,j";:;J dOil1t,..,. thi5 .

?'ILiffi J J ,P . : Did: ~·ou Gue .... ',iLy h~ .\ S thwrt:' Nrt

g:no'''/Ll~ ,'11 _ t W:' G ;oin(" to bl d one J you think that SOID .. -

t i ." i ... :oinl.. tc h, don Lnd you don l t knc'jY what .

If. . ,1130:" At th't t at ," thcr" had been no nc ts of

f~bot ,.... .... in Ij lurbln r .... n involving dynaw.ito or

y tt.t ha" he ~

cu· 1 ) 'lot: (-_ .

(10

I 3 id involvin,? dYl"11 it ... or J • aiVt;s? ---- (1)

• or . •

of"i

rc l\...t t) r tho t 'l •• y dy: lmi t.., hud been l.:1L:d .

cu. Tu you h':ld bo n t .... l{ 'n .f"l'liID your

t { n JOfl cO:l_ic1 r'l.bl_ I.y out of Dqrb~n, to

10 t. on .... :hinr .. :1 you sc.y you n,-,v .. r li..Jlc d Hhr:.t it

.:. J all "bout·, ---- I d1dn ' t ask , but <l1owiT1t' th"t I ( 0

oJ e'i!>!!' ,ntI. ny in3tructor, I knl".l tr.<..;.t .::,:.,)!l(.thine

.,.9 ~ inf to be don~ .

':'lb.;rl... (:i(~ JOu :Ip..:nd th' t night? ---- Cato

nor .

""0 y u ;(no,", .Ihc;r .... ? --'-- I slept .;i th :.1om13 (25

r In tions 01 '"!lin t 'J.lon .

. tt .. t tim£' .;.lid :,'ou leuv ... your of fic on that

B t\ve~n C ~nd 7 ) I _lock in the .ftl..!r-

loon .

~"!; tim. d') you normally :3top ','lOrk " ---­

A ..... :; +'i::l· .... fc lik

'I1IIE , J . . : I thr, no ubua1 til!k? - --- No . I t

dep~ndS/ •.. • .

•

•

•

•

- 256 - S . T. JJbanjwa .

depends on the L.mount of work I hav e on any day .

:MR . WILSON: As platoon leader , wert;.n rt you i nterested

to discover why anI.;: of your section laaders sllould hav(;;

been brought into this? ---- I did not ~nqui-re _

The next day you say you went \71. th Bruno (5

Mtolo to thl..: corn(:r of Smith and Broad Stret:ts where

you met Ronn~: K..'L:;;rils? ---- y~s .

Yillat time was that? In the a.fturnoan .

\/hen Vlere you first asked to go Vii th Bruno

Mto1o? ---- I tUnk it "/[w during the day .

Did you a~k him whnt it was for? ---- No .

r took it for granted that Ronny Kc-1Grils was a senior

mnn - El'uno :.ItcJlo 'N' .s <l 8 ...... nior nan .

MrLHE, J . P . : I qm not tluite. ;Jur~ that I understand that

(10

anSW0T . II to k it .... or erant~d thut K Jrils w[!.s a 9(,nior(15

J'1an j Bruno :Mtol0 ". (I .'?I. sBnior man r ? --- - I correctc::J it .

It '~r~.o TIruno IHolo in3tU"id of Ronnie Kasril::l . And

nn;y instruction. fr0'i:l Bruno Mtolo I hnd to carry out .

r,fR . 'dILSON: Vi'J.:J th .... whol,) (If thi s organisation run on

on the. b: 3i.] of nobocJ~1 .J.zking any qUo..;stions at all? (20

I don ' t knoVi whethl.O'T otlh.!rs ask any qUGstions .

Now on th;,,; day D.fter you_say you went to

accus..:!d No . 6 ' s , you G3.y you w~re told that you should

~/ai t for Jer ry Kumr~lu unti l 6 . 30 ilnd if he bad not

arri ved , you and Duma should go to ti(,W Germany and

'.'/:1i t bjr th12 pylon'!' ---- Y\JS .

Wi..)r;,;! you ~01d ',-/hy? ---- No .

Did you n~k why? ---- l'To .

Weren 1t y u intcr~et~d? ---- No , I didn l t

h "",caus ... if Bruno bay,", :r.:J.C an instruction I knew that

something had to be done and l Id cnrry it out . I had

to get my instructions from him and it wasn ' t for me

tal . . . . . . . .

(25

(30

- 257 - '::: . T . Mbl:..n ... wa. •

• t,-, Jk .

- --- YI,;.3 .

Y \;,. t lor three nieht~~ runninc ;ycu had bo",n

k.jJt lat. in Durb.m~' --- - When We" that? ( 5

On tho..; !'light whan you Ho..;nt ',nd look~d at th..:!

p:r1on , th,,; ::1iGb t you :1 t.; T. t to George N8.ick-.;.r ' s "'!.nd tho

night ;:"ou .. ·.-ent: b .. ck to th\,; pylon? ---- Y,,'J , thfl i 30 •

• Y')U n..:VGr 'lsl~l.!d rJr.,.t it w s all about . You

nuvcr -k·ct wh~r yvu w.r..) kept, :.'ou jU;Jt ',"i~.I,.i ted till (10

I r\,;~lliocd that thl.:re

j..lS .... oml,,; '/ol'k th .. t heed tc be done . I N' sn i t 'IOr ricd at

a.ll . I I~.~.n I t worri .d t ,,11 about my home .

~}- c n(.;x~ cin i I .:ant to 0 to: You L .• VI..>

t 10 . ' .. , t1. , yG'-J ~::1 t r t on d'.l.,Y ,'"1. t. ilrun( ?,ltolo , (l~

just t· t of you to c )rrun~ t , 1lO t:..cc , ---- Did I to

tl\:.r, tog ther?

I focI quit ..:urc you undt:::rat nd whnt I

.. m r\..;f-..rrine to . Do you? ---- I wnt ,:i th l-J.im one...:

to Cliffd,'-l . VI~ t!0+ off at Nt ... non{,wl.::ni :md wcr.t (20

• You ur~dcr3to\Jd wh:lt th"", qULDtiol1 W8.s'?

I w,J.ntl.:d the quo ction to b .. 'put 01 '~ .. r bLCaU[3C it

JUt in .rlotL<.!r \TJ.Y .

lL'1. you say ~n th'lt OCCllzi nit Vl~'!=l '1. rainy (25

dJ.y~ ---- y, - .

l ... i"lcl Bruno 'ltolo u.3ed Ir.;::t tch ... ~ to light th~

~ort x':' --- - Y'..::J .

y, u · .. r", quit ..:uro.; cf th"t , ~r-: ~n)U? ----

• (30

l'h, t " t, tr~i.. ..,~cond ... cc';. ion on Hhich you

u~cd rjyr1..~..ai t, t ',r '1 it? - --- Y....:b .

l!hen/ •.....

•

•

•

•

- 258 - S . T . ?i1ban jwn .

\"!;l-=:n .1:-.3 it d\;cid<Jd that you r..:hould then go

'.ud blml up the pylons "d th your secti on? - - -- (Iolr .

I Lord t I Gubmi tit i.:; n(l t c l t,;p.r '.iha t pylons

JIL'" - JI.!:... f J .P . : I think that shouLI bL more clG:1.r , Mr .

",'lil<:ion •

.. ,Lt , ";/IL301'1 o TnJ ?ylona b...:twcen H'lm.""lar3tlale and Gcor ge­

dal~? ---- (Th .... Cou ... ·t int~rvGn..:s) .

hILNE , J .r . : Do you m,'.:m on "':h.. .. r"il,,'''-, ;y t.cack?

1\IIi . V,'ILSON: On th..: r. ilw:"'.y tnl.Ck bQtrfcc:n Cliffdnle and

H~mmar9dnlt? ---- About D, ct,;cbcr l&st y~nr .

\Tr'~ ... iT;. DI c(';Ilbvl' , 09.n ~-ou rum'.:mber'? - - - - I

On 'lh -: t d Y : .... r,-o you tvl(~ tho t thi:' had b~t:n

r1.cidt::d? y tlJ • qU!"Jti ,r, b put . ? , . ·srnn.

On wllat " y :; ... :::3 it d\;cid,~d tbt1t your s\-}ction

SilOUld 1")1'"',1 u thL"' r::il.ny pylc.n3 bct,'IGr.m Cliffdale

I wn.. t tr,l' rj. y '1n which thl3

V/hcn you ,v<.Jr,_ in£ormad - :'orry, when you

U.na Bruno touk th\,;.! dl,.;ci ion? ---- (~_r . ReGS :i nt(;rv(;;nes) .

r.i.ll . RE~3. Z,: ILoru , '"ith rl.'spl:ct , it i3 not cle~.r

COUHT 13 r courn 10 .

uR . ',;IL30N:

10 1.1 ... tIlioJ .J..:ction ·,·/~.:J involved t Clll . If my

lc<:!rot.:o f:ci ~C' ",Gul,; r .... :-.;.d hi:3 pnrticul...:.r:· h ... ~'rill U\Jl;

o· .1·_ ,,-,~ction .

" , HE:!:;::;.

f Brun~ .i. tolo ._nJ ~h .3 •. ction 2nd h...:: spe.::.ks of betwet:..n

( 5

(10

(15

(2'j

( 30

Cliffd,!lc/ • • . . . .

•

•

•

•

- 259 - 3 . T . r,Ibauj":m.. .

Cliffd"lc _nd H=rod,.le , r· is clear from th.

viut.nc th t thes('" pl"~c",:;s ur .... in c100313 proximi ty

tc... .ch \) ,hl.!r . Doth ..:hODO mn.tter3 OCt;Urr0G on th\.!

rail\l'.y Ii.

'.ILUE, J . ;' . : I hay· not , :r . ',hlson , of tlu. pro-

C0 dingo not lone "lfter t:1CY ... ·,CrIJ r ,suml.,;'d on th(;

l1(;cond d .y of th tri'.l , tb. t ,/3.;5 on th 26th Nov~m­

b.::r , find .;lO!'l. .... con:Jido.;ro:-.blc time b ... fQrl,; tr.e: short

a. journmt.;'nt; I ' v>w L~ot '1 not!.;; h\..!r· th_t l\lr . Rc~s oaid

(5

The vi-.lenc .... ,'If. 3 TlO.1 r ,1, ting tu Count 10 . I have (10

wri tt in do',m C,_ unt 10 , and my opt-nine ',"lord is Cliff-

(]- 10..: . Ana th ..... n C !!l· .. O • E . :.' ,010 nd cysl;lf were in-

VDlv·d . Dy"'r . ..:. t. U:l ... '

fi v .. tie: . J 1:jI1~.:-._· t

!d c(·rt. x:: . i'YlO bundlf.;3 of

i .ct L to .-1 '=luir. su!,port3 ' ,

,_ .... J(IU ju.J t lJut Y ur l'J.ul.'..ition nG~in

bl C .U.-3 i 1.3 ,-vid""ntl" tr. int..:ntiun of tIll!

nro_ cutio!. t ccr.r;'-pt t t t..vid,.:ncl...! with C. unt 10 .

Th2n it ~Ol. ~ un tl C unt 1J .

f IL:jOi~: j.ly g,.u ~ficr. \r.:.;: ,/hl,;n 'N'1& it dccid rJ

tl.! t Y.JU 1:(.1 your .3l..c ...... f'n shL.uld blow up tht.= r~il­

','i"'lY p;',ilOn3 lh . .:twO ... r: Clif""!'d'lll.. ..... nd H_t.nma.r:.dcl~? I

w:_ni; ,J. th d y l~ tb .1, ciuion .

lIILNE , J . P . : D'j yuu undt!rutJ.nd thl. qUl~stion? ~{ e ar~

n . ..:.ki 11

rl 1 l~ .onl.1I.···' ... ni but th Y 'tr<J t".l%ine '"'bout thl;)

r il~ J 1i H .. b t .. , .. H.;.n Clif.tdr..l.. ... nd J-hmm.r 'hll:: . ~rh.D.t

COUll!)

lin I.L. tl r.J.il ....

!'':"'ulJ h {'on 11;1:: ,nr .'( tion . ,/hen .V· th't

d .... io. .. o'; ~run, d - I t.l di:,,;cus.J\;;d thiJ m<::.tter

,.nd I had not oJu~n .y .... L.ctian buforl...C the day that the

- that/ . . "" "

(20

( ,

(j0

•

•

•

•

- 260 - S . T . Lfbanjwa .

- thr.t ;"11": '1h:nt out to blo\'{ up this pylon .

Ho.' long before. thut d, y that y.ou went out

to bIm" up this pylon '13 you now c~.ll it , did you and

Brun'~ i.1tolo dtocide t1.'lt J"our scction was to do it?

;le(:J..: thut .'1 .... had ciscussed this :natt(:I' .

lJR . Il'IL30N: On thin occn.:Ji')n you and Bruno did have

dii3cu8.:..·i0nc? Y 3 , I discus .. 1I::d it .. i. th Bruno .

And t t~:ds steee Y0U had '1 full s(:ctiol1 of

p",r~~ns r_::irh.nt in I:r v/orking ir. the Durb~n area? ---­

y.cl , I hac} a full GE.:ction .

',Thy vr~s it ntoccssary tn approach th~flC two

pcopl ... fro!:} Pit..t! r.Il:1"i tzburg ~l.t nIl? ---- Thay ,',ere

... till unrll.;!' !D.y in3J:'l..c r r .. ; th~y h:.d not bc.;!n taken

oj .'j f .1'"[ ny )\;.;CtiC •. 4 . And it.,''' n..:cc.ssC'.ry for thl:m

to gL: t t· kno,,1 tl_'- -;;, rk .

""rl..! yeu f.~ ~,inr to dGIDOn3tr:1. ttJ it to "thtm?

I t ';Ir~;:, ur '\';ork , Ij,'h .... y 1': ~d to ~t, ',Ii th to hold

I ~1 -' ,n" t \'Ihn t y~)U say?

Ywi3 , b.c·u,;~ it \'1,~3 .';crk coruh,.:ctL.d :lit!: all of us ,

',:r. ~1. y( U ._ ld ulc.-m up the pylon at N0W

Gvrm,.ny , thIJr,.. ht.d unly been threw ()f ~lOU there, hadn I t

thcrw r: - - -- y,~s .

'';h..:n yuu ,'hnt wi th Brune; ~.aolo to thlJ

(;l,~ctric ~l L.=- t· llati:)n '1cc.r tht.:. r:.Lilwc:.y n.Jar Shong­

., ni , thC:l'C; ':1 r,.. cnly two of you, ,'1tJr ... n I t th...:r .... ? ---­

y 0' 4

And ;you nc",' <:> lin decid...:G th:.l.t you VIQuld

r,),l; t r.t ulu ' ~ kraal r" ---- ¥E:;:::' .

Al t.h . .;u:~h you did not k:!10W Zulu would. b~

th.r.:!? ---- Y 3 .

• And! ......

( 5

(10

(15

(20

(25

Do

- 261 - S .T. Mban jVla • • And not knovling wh""th; r Zulu "lQuld b l;;j

th(.:ri.; , Y"'u wl..nt to Zul u I s kraal Ct rryinb: a bag f ull of

dy nal:U t .... ? y ..... G .

And .vhcn Y"u ::lr rived "t Zul u ' s , di d you

fi!~d ho',\' :l.C.ny p op1. \I' i tin- thf'r.? ---- All four . (5

13 tl.c. t 'tI P ---- y, d •

• IlClt haG hoppcncd to Luthuli ? ---- Lutl.uli

~ /i'f'ln ' t cN~t ~ctl.!c1 . I don ' t know wbct1H .. r he was any -

• ',vh :1' "'bnuts .

'" y dic.n ' t yell c(Jnt~ct him? ---- An f'.. r "" I (10

c.:::.n rl,.;m .... mbl;< , Lu t"uli ,,'0.8 n.lI:'-y during these d"yo .

,rb. r_ ...... "0:... ..;> h.. ? - --- T dlln ' t kn· '11 • lh wl..nt

E , di. you try tu c'Jnt-.ct him? - - - I t!l i nk

I'l-t')k 1'1..': it" __ feund tl" t r ... :/'!:J o:,v''''y . (1 5

y .. , th; t i oJ trul.. .

d: ."!; tim ... liu ~{(iU t tiL l' ? ---- Durine

t1.0 d' y •

• (20

I:lt.:: ting of tho.::

L~nL. ,/fll:r::; ' AC:Juci:.tion h ... l d ~t t}.r~t y.r~.l..'ll (;11 thnt

I (J )r. ' t r..:m 'f1b€;r any mc~tin£: on thct d:.y .

oJ en th 9tli D c\.'rob .r', ---- ~lr~3 tInt

( 5

m~mb\...r.3? ---- r d n I t r r-\...r!lb ... r , L • • P::: ~ b' b l:~' I .,.,: 0

nl t tl t cw, tine .

• t you ttl' .. t yl U ,'; 1" ~t that

0 0 '!IL"~ ,. , ~.c. I J .P . : .r, nlt in ~ p~~iti~n or you do no t

indic'" t( thv t.ime f d· ... y at ,:hic}, t hi s meeting

Wc.o/ ••• • . ••

•

•

•

•

- 262 - S • T . dbanj ;'If:l .

.I:-.....J hel d .

MIl . WI LSON : This mOoting startGd c:t "bout ten .in the

m.)rning :1nd 13;;:tGd till about on(;" ---- It is possible

th ~ t I arri v l.! d a.ftc.:r th me..;ting :lr-~d und cd .

MILl~E r J . J?: HO"f IT,:,ny mctlb..;ro of thu l~ssocia tion v{er e (5

tiH.:r , ro uc;hl y sp..::cJdng , a t that time , thD.t iG in the

fi!"!3t twc '''Ui.k:.: r f D;.;cl.-mb ..... r, l::!st ycaar? ---- Of whi ch

~ssociation :,'I ' Lord?

This Landc\\,/n":-l"s ' Association? ---- I had

n~vlJr got· report of th>J tot' 1 mt:mbership .

About ~!.'.) 'J ilD...7lY !!l.Ombl;;rS ;:er<.:. th_r<..:?

'Ill", r~sid,-,nt!J ",f Gl)ore: .... ch1tJ 3.r_ -bout 10 , 000 f i ncludi ng

th.,- t~nant~J .

But ,'I8.Gn ' t tid.; ..... Lc.ndlJ',-ULrs ' AS30ci::l.tion?

(10

---- Tlw mE;;l;ting.3 vi.!" not only r,;:3trictl.-d to l:J.nd - (15

C1\"ll'.o...:rs; t n".nts ·';...:r-: -'1130 .1 1r,l\;c] tv b>J prL~h.mt .

:ll';'.l. t \'I~~ tht. lc..rC .... st nunbor of people b", -

1 .. .:.ci:l~ t-r. this nssoci~tinn ":Iller. you ever Di'~J at a

I!ll:(...tL~ of it', --~-- About 150.

I,B. . ',HLSON: Y'JU t VL .j '.·ld us ':10',1 tL t ,/h .... n you got to (20

t:· ...... r .il;;r,y: thc:.t y,. U '.nd rfu0Si put on rubb13:r gloYt;;s?

YJU r Y0 told ue tl1.' .• t fnWGi D..3'3ir.:t0d yo u ? ----

And fro,., your cvidcncc- in- chbf it is

cl.,ur th2. t the only onu !ho :'.;s3i.:: Led ;yCr U wus fl,T){oni ?

--- - Yes .

But ~ f'-ow minut..:s nao you t Id ~0 you

rL(;c:dr.;c ~ll thL: ..... oth ..... r p..:opl, t[.<,,;r..; to 'help you at

th ..... :Jc(.nc? y ..... .i .

,fuut di d you ne~d thum for?

It is so .

.thilo they

'7er e! . • . .. .. .

(25

(30

•

•

•

- 263 - S .T. Lib&njwa .

were sitting there , th0y were on guard .

One would huve betm 5ufficit..:nt , wouldn I t hG?

---- No . It was quit~ a big area. and I w~ntod them to

s eo how th..:: ;lOrk is d onc .

Tht:y W...:r0 nIl sitting together, w..::ren ' t

they? --- - Although they were sitting in thl) one plnce ,

they w\:!r0 ftlCin£ in different dir..::ctions .

But nt nanL: of the pre:vic)Us explosiono you

had att~nded h~d therB been conpletc sections , hud th~r~?

(5

---- No . (10

You o?.y thQ.t on this occasion you were eiven

GUf0ty fuse? - --- That ' s whr',t I said .

fo_"lC) ,~(,U ~;,-y that you huve never heard of

.:..:::.f.:;ty fus..: b .... :f0r •• ? ---- I !')~id so . The nan .... may have

bS...;TI used thC't I n~\70r he:1rd or gr:"spcd it . (15

Thi~: ''-:3.6 ~lso goinr to be the first explosion

you had done on your uwn wi thout r.!tolo th0rl.: to IGad? ---

Anc' y ... ;tl aS~-:,Jd BrU.."10 1.Itol ,"!h(.;n hc. gave: you

tl.is pac}~...:t ' 1:1 tr~~r_ .;::10..;. uf thos_ short pi.:::c, 3 of'

cortux coruli..:ct,~d to ~ stick of dynami tc.:? I ---- Yc;s ..

And you sc..y that hG "tr..en told you that thero

'vas r! stick of dynmti te wi tb 0. s· ,f,~ty fUEi0? Yes .

(20

- --- No .

And y~:u did not ask him anything eolsc a.bout it?

(25

:Tnt ~~ single thing? - - - - I did not ask him

~nything ~lsc . I only ~3kwd him thqt bocause I hnd

n(O;v.:;r ins..:;rt,:d .• fuse intr.- the dynami tc .

Dyn'~~itL is dangerouG stuff? ---- That is

tru~ .

Didn ' t you ask him ' Do I light saf~ty fus~

in the S.:l.m8 Wtty? ' ---- Vii th · .. ~hc..t? -rii th fire?

With/ •..••...

(30

•

•

•

e·

- 264 -

Iii th th(; devicl.! th:1t you hnd used on the

occ('.sion with the pylons nt New Ge~any? ----- This

other dcvieL: WC'..3 us;::d nt New G0many .

at this other placc "

It .'lr'_sn ' t us cd

At 1i ',¥ GCrI!lf!ny you used a. cL:rtnin m0thod? (5

At th ... railwa.y tow:,.rd:; Shong.nmi you udt:d matches? ---­

YL:S , bIJCnU3G it was raining .

V/h\,;n you WGrl:: GivL:n safety fus~ "f::hnt you ' d

n\,;ver h .... urd of , sur .... ly you w~nted to m::.kl; :Jure how this

thing wea to be set off'? ---- Th~ .ttnowledgt3. I had rt=- (10

c~ivcd was t~~t if it i3 not raining , I use thL: one

dc-vic\.l "ind if it is raining , I us€: n:n.tch.as .

And you w(;.re: now usinG sOI!l0thing completely

diffi.:rc:nt th~t you had nt:ver hL:c.rd C'f b_fore? ---- As

long "18 I kn0w thr. t thl,..r~ ';IC'!.$ som ... cord hanging down to (15

:,j( t licht , thnt wan I:'liOUeh for m· •

Didn I t you w~.nt to know how lonl! this fuse

took to go off? ---- That I would hr .. vt,) notic..:d Vlh-.;n it

hCPPl:ni,;d .

You l v~ told us you etttacht..:d tbis fuse to th.;:: (20

tin wi th immlation t:lp.... . Why did you do that? ----

I uttach..:d it to th", tin \'lith insul, tion tapt;; so that

it \','(luld not mov,-, .

Did you have insulation t- pc right round the

u;..!fL:ty fust.:? --- - No . (25

He.,. .. did yeu attach th..:: insul:l. tion tlJ.p~? ---­

(Intl.rprct~r: Th,.., \,iitncss d'monstr.ltcs n fuse: is hanging

in th r.liddl\:! f::l tin which is d,n::lOndtr~t,-d wi th a glass) ,

ULNE , J , P . : You .rtJ dcmonstr~tinf,' witt: n pencil nne'! a

tur:tbl.,;r? ---- Y"}'s . Tho p<..ncil ",'/hich i3 .;uppos~d to (30

b\ u fu?~ is hanging in thL: ~iddlL: cf thw tin .

N~t tuuching th, botto~? ---- Not touching the

bottom/ " " " " " " " " "

•

•

•

•

- 265 - S . T . ldbanjwa •

bottom . Then ~ piece of insu12tion tape is pasted on

to the side of th~ tin, Going up to against the fuse

J ~nd' th~. same on th~ opposit~ sid0, to hold the fuse in

the centr-.; po~i tion of this tin .

MR . ,IILSON : I want to ask you vBry briefly , the

meetingc. you told us you El ttGnd ed of the Regional

Command , what time did you used to meet? ---- Just

aftar 8 O' clock in the morning .

And then you used to drivOd off somewhere , you

told U3, to v~ rious placGs you went? YE:S .

How long din the meetings t~k(; on an average?

D.::pcmdine on thoJ matt8:r th::tt had been discussed .

Ar. soon as .'l;. had di3CUSS.3d what Wt: w:;.nt..;d to discuss ,

we left .

(5

(10

Y(1U v-(~nt te.' fi\r\.: mE: .... tings I think you G~id? (15

- --- Yl1s .

What was th..:: uveragB lungth of meetings?

From the time thnt we started discussing r.:.ny matter it

did no t tr>l{t ~n hour .

J~t9t under an hOllr? ---- Prom less the1Il an (20

hour to an hour .

der0 you then tU\{(;:'!l1 back to th~ bridge at

Ov~rport? ---- (The.: Court int~rven<.!s) .

MILNE , J .P.: Not at Overport . It was Tollgnt~ .

MR . ',TILSON: Tollga tc, Gorry M' Lord? ---- After we

finished the meotings WI; usunlly wL'nt to Durban where

we work .

All of you? ---- Yes , :3om(;timeE Ronnie was

l£f1; on tht way . .

\'there wcw h~ left? ---- On two occa~ions I

car.. rem8mbGr hG was left somewhere near Howard College .

Yru I ve told us the nGxt thing connected vii th

(25

your/ ... .. .

•

•

•

•

~ 266 - Z, . T. TlIbanjwn. .

your section was that you were askoJd to g0t some on~

to observe goodstr~ins in th2 Hummarsdale area? ---­

Yes .

Were: goods trains sel ected so that there woul d

not be the danger of loss of' life? --- - That was nev er (5

cxpla.ined for what rG2..90n goodstrnins were se l ected 4

If you just want~d trains , passenger trains

run to a timetablu that you can get a copy of from tbe

rqilw':lYs , not so? ---- Yes , that is so .

And you suy you spoke to llkosi? --- - Y~s . (10

!/hat did you ten him to do? - - -- I told him

to observe goodstr.'!ins between H'1mmarsdal(: and George-

d~lc in the ev~nings .

In the Jvcnings? --- - Yes .

For bow long W2S h0 to do this? ---- No time (15

w:.:ts !:.ltipulnted how long they had to obsoJrve these trc:.ins .

Th~y just ha.d to satisfy thGms~lv~s .

He worked with you in Durban , didn l t hC'? ----

Yc.s ,

And did he came homL et the sam~ time as you?

Sometimes , Sometim0s he left before mc . (21

Som~tim~s I suppose h~ left after you?

Thnt is so ,

He wouldn ' t havG ha.d a grc;,t dl;;3.1 of

opportunity for obs~rving trains in thG ev~ning 7 would (25

he? ---- Why not?

MILNE , J .P . : 'f/hcro would he ect off, ut which station

would he g\.!t oIf when he returnc:d home? ---- George­

dale .

Which station would you get of.! in order to (30

get to your home? ---- Hammarsdal~ .

MR . vITLSON : I put it to you that Nkosi wouldn I t have a

good/ •. •• • , , , •

•

•

•

•

3 . r . 0c.llj,va .

good opportun:bty of s(h;:ing the trains nnd you said I ~'lhy

not? ' How long aoC!s it t,'J.kl; to g ... t by tr:::.i'n from Durban

to H::!lI1IIlo.radr .. lo? - .... -- About tiiO hours .

So the earliust thQt Nkosi would a r rive home

l,~ould b(;.: - what time dC:0S till.: tr .... in lv·vE.? HD.lf past six( 5

or G o ' clock? --- - Th~ first train lec,voJs at threl.;: .

After v/ork? ---- Th03rw is another one !l t a

qua.rterte fivi;; .

And nft~r that? --- - The next one is half

past six .

So that is the onL you usually catoh isn ' t it?

The ec.rlicst on0? ---- No, it d~p~nds wh~n he hasn ' t any

work to a 0 , hu lon.v..:;s wi th th~ l'urli or tT"'ins . I myself

l~ft V'ri th thL! ...!'J.rlivr tr"'tins sometiT!l(;s . If thiJr8 was

(10

!'!.nythinc; I '1J:1nt\.,:c1 to ":0 , .. !nd dO J I l-.:ft with ..;Qrliur (15

trnins .

I sugg\...st to you thc.t h", would usua.lly not bu

rwm..:: until aft I,.; I' half puut Light? - --- It is not possible

t .... a.rrive ~'ft(:)r 8 ' clock if h8 lur'v;.;s Vlith thL) 3 o ' clock

train . (20

MIDlEJ.P . : At whnt tim oJ did h0 gcn~r'~l]y start his work

in th(; morning? Did hi.;; usually c:t.tch th, 6 . 30 train in

the morning? ---- Yes~ h~ usually l",ft with thu 6 o ' clock

train .

Six 01 clock trr:in? ---- 6 . 30 "n I Lord . (25

That v/culd bring him into Durb.:tn at about half

past wight? ---- Yws , approximately .

MR . WILSON: '1'1'1o...;s(; chomicals that you wo;:re given, which

you w ... r.:: SUPPOSI,;;{' to show p~opl(;, d[;monstratcl hm ... to use,

what nQmes W!:rl: y,jU told frr tht::m? - --- I h~VG forgotten (30

tho...; English nam~G 0f thosu two . I r0mcmbo...;Y the Zulu

naI!l(;3 .

Were/ . • . • •

•

•

•

•

- ,,68 - 'L T • Ibun j~" <

/{l?;rl2. you told the: Zulu num~3 by Bruno? ---­

y~s, in Zulu und in English .

r,IILNE J J . P . : HE'¥vG you eV l;r heard the Zulu name ' i 91 bi ba '

b :fore that? ---- y~s .

','!her, had you huard the. t word first?

Mnny YI,.;s,rs "..,~o wh,;:TI I w;.ts still Q. youth .

(5

\ih!J.t Wr\8 it USE:d for, to r ufer to what when you

UG~ it? ---- It is something thnt you put into water , it

diacolours the wat~r with a r e::ddish colour, 30m\..: ust.d

to drink it . (10

Nhat io tho objoct of putting it into th.

w-.t..::r? ---- I ' d seen SOroll p~llplu put it in water 'lnd drink

it for ~ c~rt~in purpoe~.

,lhnt purp.:>3E::?

fer a c~rtain illn~tis .

I dun ' t know what purposE:;

(15

Hnd you pri lr to 1~9t Yl,.;cr , r~gard~d it as some

form of m..::dicino? - --- Ytc;s .

Thl,,; uth0r In...., ' sibabul n ', whun did yuu first

hear th:-~ t wurd? I firct hIJurd thn. t nrunl: when I was

still n youth . (20

To wh: t did it rl:.f~r in your youth? - --- It

W-:1.3 used in cnnnt:;cti.)n with hors(:s but I do not know fo r

.-lha t purpos..: .

Do you say thc.t it was Mtolo who told you that

th. dl..! two powdl'rs to which you ' V\.,; r~f<.!rr ... d wer,,; known (25

in Zu lu as 'i aibiba ' and ' sibabula ' ? ---- Y8S .

MR. 'li'ILSON: You ' VI,.: told us , I think , that you W0rt:

~~rr,-,,,,,t...,d ;n th~ .::6th JU!lL.? --- - Y0S .

Did you brl..!ak away from the police Hhun you

got out of th~ bus? ---- As I I,.: xplained yesterday •

Yuu didn ' t I,.:xpl~ i n y<.!5t~rday . You ouid when

you g0t out of tht;; bus yvu r a.n . I w.::nt to know if you ld

been/ .. ...•. .

(30

•

•

•

•

- 269 - S • T . Hh;:.!1 jw.J. •

be~n held nt th~ tim~ und you brok~ a~ay . Physically

held ? ---- No .

And you werr..; thoJn tn.1c..::r.. up to Pretoria?

Y(.;s .

',tn,ere you 'Wl,.;ro qu..;stipned? ---- Yes . (5

And yeu w~r-=: ]s:Qpt in solitr!.ry coniinGIDl;I.nt

throughout thG.t time? - - - - y~s , until today .

And you told us that you b~c~mc confusod by

tho.; qUi...sti:Jning? --- - At tim;.;s, not r:lvmys .

Did/ . ... . . . .

•

•

•

•

~._. l .. ... \ll:

Diu Y' u find th'.t at the beginning this solitary

coni'incr.;cnt J:I:ldc you fcol discourqgcd and bewilde:red?---­

I s~i" '1cstcrd3Y th t is hard to be locked up "lone in a

gaol.

MILITE , J . P.: Would it be fair to say it made you feel (5

unh.~ppy? ----No one e~n be h"ppy being in custody.

MR. WILSON: Aft er you ' d been held in solitary confinement

for 81 'I'1e tine did you fi!1d th~t you were starting to

ir.1!1gine things?----Likc whQ.t, for instoncc?

I ' n asking you whether you feund th~t you

st~rt ,d im~gining things? ----I don ' t understnnd the

question M' Lor]?

You stnrt~d h~ving hDllucinotions? ----Like what,

for instnnce?

(1

Did you st~rt S 'cing things before your 0VCS, (15

like :1r.;;~ms , when yell wert; 3wakc.?----No, I never dr eaot .

Yeu SIlY you cen ' t r emoPlb(;r the questions - c.xc ept

for tht: tvo or three '-x .... ; _1108 you B'1VE.. us, you C'1n I t

r~munb, r th~ qu~stions the police ~skcd yOu? ----That is

wh~t I snid, yes .

But you c::m rL M_be r thc exact d'J.tcs on which

you we r t;. !'!'loved from Pretoria t o Durban, back t o Pretori:) ,

b,cck to Durb':n . ---- I ro 'c:nber them, yes .

llow 'IOU told us , I think, that you had made no

st:lt(;nents in Pretoria on tho first oc cnsion you were (25

thero?----Th~t is so .

That you w~r~ th n brought back to Durb~n on the

15th July? ----yes .

You tr'1vl;.:llo.:d '::o\fn by car , didn ' t yct.?----Ycs .

Had you suffered any injuries a t thnt tine? (30

----No .

And did ,Vou hove in your C'lr

v"!n Niclte rk? -- --Y~s .

And/ • ••• •

l<bjor

(2()

•

•

•

•

271. S.T. Mbunjwa :

And was he sitting in f ront of the car? ----Yes .

And on tht; vmy down did he turn round , leon

over the bock nnd talk to yOu? ----Hc did speak to ne along

the way .

Did you have a frienaly conve r sation With,hin? t5 ----He is fond of conversing , whether you are a prl.BOner \

or not.

And did you talk to him most of the

----W. we r e talking about other matter s ; not

journey down? l about pOli tica

matters . (10

And when you arrived here did you soe Lieutenant

StE:€nko.f"'P - who is sitting in front of r.l.€ - and Lieutenant

Prins?---- (Mr . Vlilson ""slAt Wentworth? ----I saw them 'It

thl--:ir quarte r s .. .

At \-,cntworth? - --- yc;s . ( 15

Did you spL~k to th~m? ----I never spoke to

Lieutenant Stecnk~mp. but I spoke to - I did sreak to

Licut~nnnt Prins .

Did he questiC'n you? ----Yes .

Di'] LiEutEmmt Stccnkanp leave the questioning (20

to him? ----Li~uten~nt Stecl~amp never questioned ~e : others

qUi.;stioncd mc . were

hn0~ther~ oet~ctives from Pretoria down here

too, questioning you? ----Thosc th~t came down with mc .

Did th.y reMain there for the queetioning? ---- (25

They vIer. there; they went beck the next day .

Did Major v'\n Niekerk t'!ke part in this

quc;stioning? ----No , he 'Jnly listened . HI;; never asked

mc: any questions .

WMt sort of questions did they ask you on

thot day? Gnn you r(:M(;nbcr? ----Th~y asked me questions

about the nMkontovlE::sizwe " and the A. N, Co 1

Didn ' t/ ••.• .

I (30

•

•

•

• •

272 ,

Didn ' t they qu "Hon you ~bout people? ---- Hov:

could th.:..y flsk M.e obl'ut pE..ople if I denied '"lny knowledge

about those orgnnis3tions?

Lna you sny you w\,,;rl:.: kept cOVIn here: until the

18th 3cptc~ber?---- I left on tho 18th Septomber .

And you dir1n I t mf!ke El s tatBm~nt , so you s.'lv ,

until the: ~nd of August? ----yt;s .

Vhs tha t th(' first st~ tcment you hed nP.dt? ---­

That was th-.: only enL . I Dever made any othe r s t nte;I'lent .

( 5

Was it all t'~de on the S"me d~y?----I think it (10

tack ..... bout two wocka tc complete: thl;; statement .

Two wecks?----Ifhnt is OD estimate .

',{ere Y0U boir! questionod throughout this stntc­

mcnt? - - --No ~ It \'{[).Sr' I t 0. mntte:r of si tting ~11 d'1Y r.t:'kine

:::. st:..,t(.n.~nt . It W:-iJ {fir '1 sho r t While, then I ,'IUS t'lkcn (15

b1.ck . Then thL ne"{t :1: v I W::J,S tnkcn ug~in 'lnd continue.: 1 . An d

,,:;or(;ti:nl.;s '1 cl'1y W0U 1 i?t S -. "l,nd nobody NQuld corc .

How f!'! .ny polie", 'h..:n Here usu"'lly there Nhen you

Wli r c Ji'lking this Gt t ..... l.nt? ----Only one to whOrl I VI'J.S "Joking

tLis ~to. t i...t1€:nt~ (20

Only cnc wns prcscn t ?----Tht r e wes only on~ f3reon

to whon I wns r.nking .'1 stntE..n€..nt . ThG r e Wt!re tioes the. ~

onc w0ul'1 eoy;:(; in, SPI .. k to the person who wc!.s taking ';he

stat .... 1C.nt , '1nd ler.v£; ~g:;.in .

In wh'J.t lnngu~g~ did you M~kc the etut~~cnt? (25

----In English .

You h ,d no difficulty? ----H~ did assist MO eOtlC­

tiJ'",E.:3 to gc:.t r:y l .... n··u:lgt; etra. ight .

Di,j he n Vi..; r qu, stion you? ----No . \'/bo;;.D 1 nude r..y

st.-t, cnt 1,'/.'15 no t qucs Gioned at nll ~

Arc you surl; th'...t you !nde this at the end of

August? ---- yes . My/"" •

,

•

•

•

273 •

My instructicn3 re that ~ll the: Members of your

dletion Werl ~rrc8tv] o~ the 24th or 20th of July?----I

'1~n l t ~rrcst th~~ . The polic~ Must have ~rrest0rl th~m .

My ,jU ~t:8tion is th-:.t th~ po l ice: "!rr l..;.sted thC:!:1 on

i.",forn, .. ,tion Y",'u h".:1 'c. \,,! ,\vcil,b,lc to thc~? ----On whose (5

infor~ntion wes I arrested?

\/e:ren ' t you co~~fronted by p\;ople in Prctori!l? ---­

What kinl of people?

All tho people 'lOU he:: rcerui ted to leave the

~vuntry for nili t:1ry tr':ining?----ycs . (10

Y(:s, thu l~st br..tch of people: you had sent out

of thl.! cI'untry n'1:1 bl.cn "':-rcst(.:1, hndn ' t they? ----I saw in

thl; .p~ r tIl.t sane; I:'"'C bCi.;n ~rr(.st(;n ; but I din not know

tho.t th (11 .... ., th t w. rl; '1rrestcd \\'t rc those th!"lt I/(re rl..; -

cruit hy ,c. (11)

MILNE , J . P . : V1h .... t'c. 1":1 f'-u S'-'C this? --- - I saw it in th~

fh(.rl wo.;rL. ;Tr'U 'h .... n you s~w it? --- - In DI,rb'm .

1,tns thi::.: b<...ftr your '1.rrcst? ----BcforG I W'1S

(20

• I~h. ,'IILS( H: J,m~ ,/h n "I U f'!.rrivecl in Pretoria. you snw sor.J.(; of

•

th P<'" pl~ yc 'd srnt ~ut - recruited, didn ' t ycu? - --- I

S"l.W so L. tll;:t WL.TE br:.. "ht in when I Vl,:!S in - :'It the

Ccntr-l Police Stltion .

·,kr .. YCU ._skt.. r' to ide:ntifv th€o? ----No . They

c'""'.m{.: in to point r.1l; out ~3 beine the pcr:;on thflt st:;nt

p( rh'1ps th t ',. ill cxpL.in to vou why vou were

'1 rrL.!:'-tGd .----Th'1t is _rcb~ bly th~ r· ::.son .

I (25

Di1n ' t ~,rou knol'; that"! long tiDe. :1ogo?----I (30

r'li r3n ' t l{now t 1'lt thl.y DaY helVe (;ntioncd tho t they wer!;!

Ecnt 1W'J.Y by '~t.. •

MILNE , J . P . :/ . . ..

•

•

•

- , "'IL" J 1'" H~ , !l . : .d

I understood you to say that you woJre confronted

with those. people in Prctoria? - ---Yes .

Then you Ind nlreor1y been arrcsted?----Yts .

MR. ',:rILSON: You were t:;l(l...u strnil"',ht up to Pretoria snd (5

immcdi~tcly confronted by thorn, weren ' t yOu? ----About a

w8ek 2ft~r my nrriv~l in Pretoria I wes t~kcn and put

"!.mongst3.nothcr group of people , nnd these people were

brought in ono by one to point me out .

Can you remember wbat you spoke to Major 1r:m (10

Nickcrk ~bout in th~ motor c~r coming down from Pretorio?---­

We WGTC tnlking about c.gricul turo . As we trove lIed down I we s~w lond . Thon we discussed various towns , discussing

which town wn.s bott~r th':m the othGr .

You w~ru takLn back to Pretoria - I didn ' t hear (15

you , I think: it w').s the 30th October ; it mC1Y have been

the 13th?

MILNE , J . P . : 13nck to Durbnn .

MR . iIILSON: B~ck to Pr,-,tori~1. - I ' m sorrjr, bo.ck to Pretoria

on tho 18th September .----yes . (20

'fWh:tt h"'.ppcned to you whtn you got bqck to Pretoria?

----I W'1S d .... t'lined ... (Mr . \lilson intervenes)

Woren ' t you qUGstion.;d up thE:re?----No .

vlerl'in ' t you nsked nbout your contacts in Germiston, )

or JohcnnCisburg? ---- I .h.J.9 po .Q2Et.'J.cts in Joh'J.nnesburg. (25

Or G .... rmiston it Jlc:!y huve been? --- - No .

H'1dn't you t~ken one perty of recruits up to

Johannesburg? ----ycs .

\l'/hnt did you do with them when you got them to

Johnnnesburg'?---- I hn.nded th(;m over to Joe Modise .

Didn 't the police ask you 3bout Joe Modise? ---­

I w~sn ' t questioned . Thl.: polic.:; informed me that he had

(30

• run/ .....

•

•

•

•

';''''50

run 8.way .

Vlhcn did th •. y clo th"t? ----When I arrived in l're-

toria on tho second occ~sion .

Hcd you mentioned him in your stutement?----Yes .

Did they tell you th..'1t other people had run (5

D.way? ----No .

ThE membl;..rs of your section were ell nrrrsted

on July thE; 24th ond 25th -md my instructions arc: the'-,

during ~lUE.stioning , wcrLo ~ll told tl Solomon Mbunjwa hn£

nlready told us this nbout you . !1-- -· - 1 wasn ' t present .

I do not know whether th:-'t is true .

V/ell if you say YOIl had not made a statement it

could not 11e true , could it? ---- I don ' t know how the

police work.

(10

Didn't the police v{hen tht.y questioned you (15

~.IWDYS introducL: themsc.lv .... s to you? ----No . Ev(;:n up ·~i~.l

tochy I don! t know thl.' ll,-:mcs of some of them .

I sU'o!,eLst to you th-:- t thl:. police, in questi'1n; ng

you, told you who they wo:;.r.;; , wllQt th(.;ir fUnction w'!'S; ',nd at times

told you .... wh<J.t inform~tion they had concerning you~ (20

----Th!lt is so . But he flid not introduce himself by tIling

me his nn.me~ '1nd to tell me what r1.nk he was .

Were you at ~n'y stC!gB asked to be a Stet" rfi ,ness? I ----No .

Were you nev..:!' told th:J.t you might os well (25

mckc 'J. clc~~n brcc.st of it? ----No .

When were you fira t told tho.t you were going to

be used c::; <J. St-'1te wi tn ~:;;;? ---- I think :lfter I cc.me

b~ck from Pretoria , cbout the first week of November~

Wi:;re you then told th'1t if you were prepnrec (30

to give l:videonce for the St3.te you would not be

prosGcutGd in connection "lith the se offences?-----

No, / .• •• •

•

•

•

•

2'6 .

No , I VI::'.8 not told 1r, th.,t WflY .

In wh~t w.y ILrc you told? ----I w~s just told th~t

I will be roqui r .... d tc eiVL eVidrmce ?ccording to the st~tcment

th·"t I had rn~dc .

Were:n ' t Y)U .sl,{od if you we,re willing to do BO? (5

----I h .... d 31r~"'dy laoc statement, aumitted evorything .

Were you .1eVer ".sked if you were prep~rGd to givE:

cvidcn~c ?----1 V!3S - I jU3t stntcd th t I wns told th,t I

~/ould be rl;qulr-.!d :;0 gi v" evidence thl s'":.m~ ').8 I said in

my st'1tcpc.nt .

H~d you m.de th t st~tencnt - h~d you r po"tod

thnt stn.t.:.ment bef'Jrl.. '1 m.-~ei~tr':1t(.? ----No , I nevI r S3W

.':! m:"1.qistr'1tc .

(10

j)llrin~ "0 n~ c 'Jcricncc ~s 0 Tr"'d'_ Union org"-:nist.r,

you lr":iI h.d ,'orn(. d .... ip". ... with th law, h~dn ' t vou?----- (lr;

Only in conn-.:ction .... th ".Y lork .

Y~Gt I ' m 101 ur.·csting nything pLr~onal . You ' d

ltt~nd~d tri 1 h~1n't you?----y~s .

And h :Vi: "fOl not he'1rd th'1t conf...:ssions c"nnot

(20

bcforL q m'1eistr'1t , or confirmed before ~ m~gistr]t(?

onf~ssions to polic~m~nt sorry .

----~ro, I don I t Y..r,QW 1.nythinr;- "'bout th~t .

Didn I t you think th--.t ~/OU wt..rt. ~oinp; to put

yourself in gr .... t d .... ngtr by coming 'nd e-iving evid€;:nce (25

... (in.udiblc) ----Ev'n if I did not corne in hero to give

ovid~nc~ I '1m stiJl n dcng0r .

I cr:.n l t lnd rst'"'.nd why you '1Crl.:Gd so re'1dily

to "ive cvidl.ncc f ·Ot ~,cr·_ not told wh:!t th<.: r, suIt of

yoar ("i ving evider cc .. ,,'ul II be? - --- I h~d ~lrc.,dy p:i ven (30

up l.virything th"'t h .I'pencd .

Do you tl in th.t you .r~ going to b(; pros\.cutl;d

in connection witl. t'u:'Sl: offcnces?--- - Thf't is for the Court/ • • ••.

•

•

•

•

. '7 ' . Court - for tbo law t decide nnd not for me .

When you wer csked to give evidence according to

your stnt0ment werE: y 'u tcken through your statement to

cbeck tbnt you will s ill give evidence in that - to tbat

effect? ----I sClid yes erday, M' Lord, th~t· I never saw (5

my statement "guin.

Were you not nsked to clear up certain points?----

No .

Do you say thf'.t you made u st::1ternent which took

I'1bout - wos taken dow:r over a. period of about two weeks (10

nnd at no time during th'1t period were: any questions asked

of you by the policGm'n? ----It l s only whil~ I was m3king

this stJtcID(nt . At t mes I was ~sked to Cxp13in .

At no timE s nCl: them h:lvC you been 'Jsked to

cl~rifv points?-- --No

At no tim", s nec then h'lve you bGcn aslred

VlhfthLr you C'1D giv(; ny inform'1tion on mo.ttc.rs not

:11rel1dy m(;ntioncd in our st<...: b8mGnt? - -- - No .

THE WITiTESS STANIlS DO· r:

THE C,·'lJRT TAKES THE Le·NG ADJOURN11ENT:

~l\URT RBSUMES AT 2,20 P.M. :

MR . WILSOr C01iTTh'UES CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE \!IT1'ESS'

SOLOMOl' THEMBINKOSI MBAHJ'IIA: (still under former oath.)

( 15

(20

MR . tHLSON: Just om .. or two points I w,:mt to clc'J.r up (25

with you nowt is it C'orr\..ct thnt you live closer to the

r'1ilw'lY lin!;;. thnn No . : 3 Nkosi? ----Yt:s .

And do you kl ow that in Dccombcr of l~st year,

in p1.rticulcr on the th of DBcembcr ~ccused No . 14 hud a

sick child?----No.14?

No . 14, ycs . - - -- I don ' t know . . . (Mr . '''ilson inter­

v(;ne::s '~ncl p'"'lrt of r£-p y unintelligible . )

My/ .....

(30

•

•

•

•

My instruct_ons :1r e t hnt t he a.ccused Vlill deny

th t they WEre c.ppro ahed by you to join this orgnnis~tion?

---- (Court intervenE')

MIL~m, J . P . : Which occuoed?

MR . WILSON: All fou- , M' Lord . 13 , 14 , 15 and 16 - the (5

member s of your section . - --- Th~t is not true: I did

sp"O!k to them .

And, furth~r, th~t they neVGr took p~rt in any

of these 'lets of sab")t:"'.gc r:s you have tcstified? --- - Thnt

is not t r ue .

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR . WILSON:

~m . THIRION: M' Lord , I h-v0n ' t '1ct put tho defence of

accused Nos . 4 nnd 8 M~y I do so now .

(10

Ji.CCUl1GO No • . will dGny th'1t he Vlns involved in the

rlctivi til;,;s of "1lkont )'I,'csizwc l1 eith~r~s '3.n ordinary (15

memb(;r 1 or ~s ::!!l off ci:--.l . ----Th'lt is not true .

He;: will 'J.IE"l duny thnt he took pnrt in these

activities which yot. Stly he did tnke part in, in connection

with II Mkontowcsizwe ll ----Th3.t is not true .

Or th~t he ,ttcndcd the meetings which you say (20

h8 did ntt(;nd . - --- Tr ~t is not true . ,

Similnrly ~ccus d No . 8. will deny th'1t hE; W:.1S

the Region ..... l Comm'1ndGr of lI Mkontowesizwc ll . --- - Th.'lt is

not true if he dcni(r; it .

Or tha.t he '\'r~s ~ ~1tmber of this orge.nis:]tion . (25

----Thnt 1s not trUL.

He dc:..nies 1 lC\t he took pnrt in ::my of the

:1ctiviti(;s of this (·~gnnisntion? -----That is not true .

Or th~'t he !ttc.nded the moetings which you say

ho did '1ttl.nd .--- - Tl. ;t is not true .

Onc l~st ql ~stion , ~re you not perh~ps

substituting the ~c(u5cd for the rl.ol culprits in or de r

t o/ •.•••

(30

•

•

•

•

o '1' -n, ""'-'J • .... . ,. ·1l1J ... •• •

to keep this organisnt :m ·:tlive?-- - - I only spoke what I

know about .

NO FURTIlliR QlJ:ESTIONS :K &m . THIRION:

NO QUESTIONS BY MR . ·GU. 7ITZ:

RE- EXAMTI<ED BY MR . REE,;

Pretori'l .

You wore r3kcd about sl.;.'~ing Riot Mkwanazi in

Do you knO'V how it c')me about that he happened

to be in thl. Tr'1nsv-~a.l' ----yes .

How did it come c.bout? ----He is (DE: of the

rccrui ts thnt I Bont m--ay fo r military training.

In :"\bout w>J.t bD.tch did he go? ----ThEl third one .

Who paid f· " the - who supplied the money for

thG. tickets of the g ro' J in - for the ro.ilwLlY tickets of

the Group in which Cleo 3ed No~lO, Riot MIDvunazi, left?· ---

(5

(10

Curnick Ndhlovu, No.8, h,mdcd me tho money _ (15

Wh,"'.t .... lrrnn ..;mt:-nts , if "iDY l Vlere mndE: about the

luggage of this ~roup? ---rri.10 -thi rd group did not 'lave ~rery

much, only ::;mn.ll p ..... rcG 3. It W:lS the first group thnt went

that hnd P- lot of luge ;e .

MILNE , J . P . : The firs group ho.d ~ lot of luggngc?----- (20

Yes .

ME: . REES: You we:.re <:is ed c'3rtnin questions ebout one

A. C. Shnng~se?-----ycs

I thiw{ YOl told the Court that you ' d ~"ked him

to ect some people fo r vou? ----Yo.;.s .

H1l.d you kn "ill him bcfore?----Ycs, M' Lord~

11fhat w')s t t:; u'1.ture of your prior E'.ssoC'intlon?

----He was (1 member of the A. N. C. 3S f::-lr as I know t and

he was '1190 a member 0 the Georged-1le and District L".nd-

owners ' Associ~tion.

(25

(30

TIo you kno' wh~'t the purposE; of the estn.bll.shment

of ~his Gr:oreed'11c rmd District L'1ndoWDIJrs ' Assoctation

was?! •.•.

•

•

•

•

2bU . . .

w'.s? ---- (Mr . WiL:lon intervcn\..Cs)

MIl . IIlSUll: r· ' T,or , I mu t sk tl t the witness be 1skod

how he. knows . Hy ins-I;ructions flrc this org"'nis'J.tion

W'1s founded ill 19~(, . ...l:! only wLnt there in 1961. He

is nO\I be. inr, '1skl..d if ho knows 'why it was st~rted , why( 5

it VI"'.S foumh..:d? M' Lor' , this must clc'lrly be hC'1rs'1Y .

lit: W'1s not in th "rtl' ·,!h ... n it woe foundt..n .

'IILiE, J . P . : It might h ve been s id by one of tho

"'.ccu6,.d?

MR. VlILSON: Y ,6 . I ,I nt to know how he knew bLforo (10

hI tells us wh')t hI.. knc.w ,

MIllr~ J . P • . I S~ , y~ . Th t s ems f'li r ~nouBh .

MR . REE~: As your Lordship ple1.scd . '{E;. r ... you in any

W'1Y conc~~n~d with th~ qatublishmcnt of this Geor~ed'11e

nd Dist r ict L ndown ... rG ' Assocl'1tion? - - - --No . ( 1 5

C n you r...,ml:Jl bl;r Ih<-;th. r or not on n ace sion you

h u corr ... from Prl.. tori to Durb'""n in :1 !~ili t rv ircr'1f t ?

---- y 0.> .

On tl is ace ion '"'bout how lone; Hd YOU stny

in Durb' n?--·--l thin): one d~y . (20

,'1.nd c:.n you r .membLr <\'h\. thl,;r or not you hod

sl,;~n som polic offi~~ro or polic~mcn in priv'1tL c10 hl,;s

on th t occ'1sion? ----Y s .

C'3.n you rt;;If1!,.; 1bl.r ~'hcthl:..r or no t you C'''VE; th<.:m

ny n mus? --- - P r. ant I TIdnlLs? (25

Y.8? - ---1 on l t r mlmbcr doing so .

HillE , J . P . : Do you r .. mtmbt r ~'/h thc.r this ",'1:10 bl.foru thl,;

15th of JulV , or ft r? ---- I think i t w~s bLfore Ju1v .

You \I r err st.d on to 26th of June , t~k<n to

Prctori th\. nl.:xt n y, YOU c'mE. dOHn to Durb.n on the.. (30

l'ith July" --- - It ~z 1 fo t'lL 15th of July th t I c~me

dovm to Durb .!'1 bv 'lirer ft .

1Ut . / • • .••

•

•

•

•

, 1. , . .

Would you 11 :Vc ~ look nt me 'nd tell the Cou r t

wh .... tb; T or not vou o'"'.n T(.mL;mb(: r s(: ing mt.: before you CilmG

into this Court? >fh -":!; r or not you o'.n r mtmber s .... (;ing

me t th polio\". afflt..:.. be fort. coming into this Cou r t? - ---

YEd , I lid - laokin" t him think I S~· him "t'lcnt- (5

worth , MILor a .

_ TIILl}" J . T' . : ilhc.n? - ---At thl b ... p'inninG of this month .

To sp('1k to?---- I s':.w him . I don ' t rtmernbt:. r

wh th r thl r .... W~3 ''''ny convc. r s:1t ion .

MR . R· ... ES: 'ilh'lt diel vou ~xPt..:ct 'JQuld h'1PPl..'n aftl.: r tho 6i - (10

n31 wirws W(;rC cut ?----It would obstruct 'no stop the

t r '.ins f"om comin-e; i ~t +}u.: t tien bL.c USIJ the 01(71' Is

wo ,1 Tiot bl working .

MILNE , J . P . : You di t ink

.ot - th ,t it r::.i!?ht c .... usc '1n o.ccident?

- ---Th t w ..... ~' 1:30 ros 1 ),.LI.. . ( 1"

~.m . r."q I TIION: M' Lord, y I be rivln '1n opportunity to d~ 1

h'i th t io;.; - to y,:ut t +} witn.3u the: def nc "'8 r t:E'": r ds

his ~v":'knc(; in r ... - cx .Ln1.tion th"'t h(; st,,;nt no . 10 ').s .,

r~cruit fo r tr ininr ~utsid~ tho countr y . (20

~H . Till" 'ON Cl'j,JULT3 iT ,1 THE ,CCUe,ED:

"n . TIHT/IOr: ACCU8L lo . lO ~cnics th3t h~ w~s recrui t ed

by vr"u for tr .ining outSide the c(luntrv? --- -Th~.t is not

trut; . (25

And h ... Si.ys th t he vns fleeing th(.. country

bee us\.; he W~:3 .f r · .id of tho pr ovisions of thl.: 90 d:lYs I

c1 'u:...G ; til t hI,;. t""ot lift f r om Pretori~ in ~ Kombi

r,oin~ to B~chu~nnl~nd . ---- Trnt is not tru~ .

~nd on th0 'v to r,.;chu:n~.l'1nd hI";: W'lS (30

'1rrcstLd .-- - - Ht. W:lS :lrr t\.d with othe r s on th\;.;ir w:J.Y for

~ilit~ry t r -ining .

You! •. .•.

•

•

•

•

You ..... re not 1r ... sl.:nt I:htD th ... y wc.rf. "1rrestcd?----

1 W'1sn ' t pr~.scnt. Th t wns infor.mrtion I r ccivcd .

'h{;:n W'J.S th t informntion giv~n to you'? ----Aftt.r

I W'1S ~rr..;st(;d .

Simihrly Curnick l!dhlovu will deny th'lt (5

he provided the. monr..y to buy th(. tickc....t.:i .--- - Th'"'t is not

tru~ .

!hl FUf.THER ,UESTlm;S '3Y 1m. THIRIOII:

'[!t . REES : lVi ' Lord , m~y I '1sk this ',,'1 tn(.o':; whp ~ht.r he

is 'tblc. to '~ive the n .mes of the ,:ccuscd persons - (10

1 1m ;jorry - thL- l1'l.mcs of ~ny of thL bf'tch of pl:ri::$ons who

left hl.;r(.. w~th Riot ikw· .... n'J.zL I didn ' t r~c.lizo its

.lipni.fic"'ncc until I ..... rc1 Mr . Thirion ' s l'1.st quc:stions .

MIllIE, J . P.: ~ny obj otions?

MI; . THI'OrOF: ~ ' Lor', providGd I ' m giv n "'n opportunity (1r:

of U\ ...:.llng Y/lth ~nv \ -v ir;UIC(;; th~t mi ~ht; coml: out, I h--',vt:

no objl...ction .

rl1:{ . lLL3: Arc yeu 11(. to give thL names of Iny of the

pCr30nG who le:ft h,~r..:: ",ith Riot Mkwr:nazi?----It is possible

thlt I reTilember .1om\; nf th, m, ~.nd some of th<.1m not . (20

iLIl could you 3ivL thos~ th~t you do r~m(..mbur .

- --- ll.lc.:x'1nd\...r H "'cobo , Thcmre Gum(.dc, Judson Khuzw'1.Yo ,

nd on .... by th"" :-~urn~n1C, of Ngcongo - I fOl"'g(;t thL christi '11

n .mc; . On"" r,1thiY"'.TIc - I fore\... this christi'1n n .m-.; . One

r..rkhizc . Bis chrLstj '1 n"rrli,. Edw'"!.rd . Those arc thi.. ones (25

I l'""membLr . The r\.; \I.r_ I.;ight in 1.11 , .nd the othLr one

w'.!s l~o.lO '1ccllsGd .

~W F1 "Tl-{1'r 'jUESTIOI'8 BY ~IR . REES~

"URTH .ll CRO';:; - EXA'II' NJ'IO BY MR . THInIOll:

W rc: thG;:;c. _ mes 'g"in iv n to you as the (30

pe:r ... ons ..... rr\...stcd ',/ht:n th police: questiont..::d you? ----

No . I knoN thLse (I m..:s from the tlm", th(;y 1, ft becrl,use

II . .. . .

•

•

•

,

283. S • T . Mb:~tnj ""

I naked th~m for .11 the ir n".mcs .

Wer .... th .. sc p ..... oplt.: known to you , or wer~ they

st r 1.nr- 1"5 to you? ---- I hed oft(;n seen thGm , ..... nd I knew

th.m .

Ilhy did you h-,ve to ".sk their mm"s then? (5

--- - R.:.C'lU3C some pc;opl(; vou know by surn;).mo ;>,nd not by

chri3ti~n n~mc: . Oth .. rs you know by chr istir!n nnme ~nd

not by surn~mo.

10 it then thnt you did not kno"/ thorn wcll?----

Only by th nome, otherwise I knew them . (10

-,ih ..... r(; did th Y come frorn? ----From Durb_n .

"lhl.r,,: did Alcxo::nde:r Ngcobo come from? ----Hc VI:JS

wOl"kinc: :1t th(. Point in Durb"n .

And Nr::conl~o?---- 1h.;n I knc.w him he W:'lS working

for tr.. ... Syd nl).m Botel. ( 15

r.nd ":thiy':mc?----I did not v~ry often sec him

but he stoyed "t KW£l ~!"shu.

You told us ~ littl~ while 1.~O th1.t th~ police

told you -:.bout the. '"!rrc·t of these pcople? ----Ytos .

Wlmt did tho police tell vou about the (20

:lrrcst?-----Thr:.y nskcd liiL whether I knew th(;m, mentioning

th ir n1mes .

~.nd W:lS No . IO l s n"'.m€ '11so nmongst those

pc;ople;? ----ycs .

lih t did you S':l.V thcn? ----I dl2nied . I s~id I (25

cJitj not know th.m.

And w\..;rG Y'''u th<;n t'lkE;n to '1 pl'1.cL where you

'.'I ... r nut on .n id, nti ic ·tion pf'.r'!de?----YC:s .

Jm( ;ho id ntifi d you tb.;r .... ?----Judson Khuzwr}Yo ,

.... n'} Tlkmb ..... Gumc;rjc . Tl':o~;c rc thl.; tv/o th'1t W(;r0 (30

brourrht to point ""'c.. 'ute

I'0 FURTHER U':5TIOl,S BY ~·R . THIRrorr:

NO/ .....

,

,

l d

,84 . ~. fT1. Mb1.n j vr

NO QUES'rION~ BY MP . ·rroSON:

NO QLESTIO; S l'Y o~ • IWIT Z:

MTI. RILl ~~.I.).c3 '! :1 lIn]""" ' r;- ":NIFIC Tr

ll' 'l';.ffi~. OP 3':C'rIO~! 22,1 (F T! 0RIMINAI GODE SUBMI'CTING (5

TTLED T(, "UCH I!'llEMNIFI' hTTO' •

TlIJ. ~<h'l·T.,R "_ fiEF oR JJl UNTIL TID: El:rlF THE TdIAI ••

MR . lJE'S AJ'I'LIE~ F'O Tf'l' ·.IITNEJS TO BE EXCU,ED FIlOr.!

1" ':TH~R ,.'rTEI:rlANCE.L.r. lim.nHG ! C(lURT T'IAT THE (10

II "ES" WIIt BE "V',' "lLE 01' A DAY OR T'W ' S NOTICE IF

"Er E'· 'y. _, ~.2~.

flU' . TH ... RION: '111 l,ord t thl..;rc is piLCf. of evidence.: giver>

by this wi tncs9 _bout hil'h I h"_vc. rt('lubtb '18 to vlh",,- (1 ~

tL l!r it is ~dm ... 3;Ji blc, 'lnd I r'iee th", m tt<..;r novi for

your Lordship ' s dGci~ion . I Jubmit th~t it is 'n~dmi3sibl

You:r Lo r ishlr .vill r mbcr . ... (Court int rv ncs)

Do you iV"!nt thQ '.vitn ___ ss her€, or do you

\ "nt him to b~ cxcus~~? (20

Mf . THIRIOf: MILord , thl! witnl1ss has given the cvid(;nce

nd I 5(;t; no r. ",son \'hy he should be excused . M' Lo} ,

th~ witn 85 hns riven ~vidancc to the effect th~t Mtolo

on th~ w ..... y to the pylon "'!.t Ubi Germ'1.ny s:!id to him th'1t

they must finish bofon 9:00 o ' clock so th~t thc (25

t;).'plosion could cOinciac ,'lith th't 'It S'lrnia ':nd some

othl r pl'1cc. wh ... rc Iiilly '1nd - No . 4 would be - th~t is

1: ... 11y .. d Hanni\..- lou1d b .... .

mi . rH lHIOlI ADV .. ; • '" FURTHE'l odlGUHENT .

Tt n ... ~ to ~~ it ~~~1 b~ ~or~ con- (30

v~~i~nt to d~ 1 with I ~3 t thl end of thL c',su , inste d

of ot..;'11inp' '/ it:h it pi c ... m~".l . .."ft! r --:.11, s you S~V , th

(;vjd~nc~ h'1s b rn ho rd . It is it c"'!.n h~ t .... kL:n into .... ccount .

question of Hhe;thcr

That/ •• • ••

,

Collection Number: AD1901

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Records 1958-1978

PUBUSHER: Publisher- Historical Papers , University of the Witwatersrand LoostlOfl· Johannesburg C>201 2

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