http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

·1

·2

·3

·4· · · · · ·ELLIOT LAKE COMMISSION OF INQUIRY

·5

·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·--------

·7

·8

·9

10

11· ·--- This is DAY 73 in the Inquiry proceedings held

12· ·before the Honourable Justice P.R. Bélanger, Commissioner,

13· ·taken at the White Mountain Academy of the Arts, 99 Spine

14· ·Road, Elliot Lake, Ontario, on Wednesday, the 24th day of

15· ·July, 2013, commencing at 9:00 a.m. ---

16

17

18· · · · · · · · · · · ·---------

19

20

21· · · · · · · REPORTED BY:· Lisa Barrett

22· · · · · · · · · · ·CSR, CRR, RPR

23

24

25

·1· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:

·2· · ·Peter Doody, Esq.,· · · · · · · · ·Commission Counsel

·3· · ·Nadia Effendi, Esq.,

·4

·5· · ·Paul Cassan, Esq.,· · · · · · · · ·City of Elliot Lake

·6

·7

·8· · ·Michael Title, Esq.,· · · · · · · ·Eastwood Mall Inc.

·9· · ·Derrick Fulton, Esq.

10

11· · ·Peter Roy, Esq.,· · · · · · · · · · ELMAC

12

13· · ·Darrell Kloeze, Esq.,· · · · · · · ·Government of Ontario

14

15· · ·Joe Bisceglia, Esq.,· · · · · · · · Gregory Saunders

16

17· · ·Johnathan Shime, Esq.,· · · · · · · Alexandre Sennett

18

19· · ·Robert MacRae, Esq.,· · · · · · · · Robert Wood

20

21· · ·Norman Feaver, Esq.,· · · · · · · · Ontario Provincial

22· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Police

23

24

25

·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X

·2

·3· ·ASADOOR BOB NAZARIAN:· ON PRIOR OATH

·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGES

·5· ·CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF

·6· ·BY MR. DOODY .............................. 17720 - 18023

·7

·8

·9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX OF EXHIBITS

·2· ·NUMBER/DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE

·3

·4· · · · · · · · · · No exhibits entered

·5

·6

·7

·8

·9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

·1· ·--- Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m.

·2· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Good morning,

·3· ·everybody.

·4· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Good morning,

·5· ·Mr. Commissioner.

·6· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Mr. Doody, go

·7· ·ahead, please.

·8· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Thank you.· Mr. Nazarian.

·9· · · · · · · · · ASADOOR BOB NAZARIAN: ON PRIOR OATH

10· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Good morning,

11· ·your Honour.

12· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Good morning,

13· ·Mr. Nazarian.

14· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I apologize for

15· ·yesterday's frustration.· It was not really

16· ·intentional.

17· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Just listen to the

18· ·questions, give your best answer, sir, and things

19· ·will go well.

20· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'll do that.

21· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

22· · · · · · · · · CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY

23· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Good morning, sir.

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Good morning, sir.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·We spoke yesterday, before the

·2· ·break, about the fall to -- the autumn of 2006.

·3· ·Moving on to 2007, was any work done on the leaks in

·4· ·2007?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, we have never stopped

·6· ·working to clog the leaks and repair the roof.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. England testified that no

·8· ·materials were purchased in 2007 to finish the job

·9· ·which he had begun in 2006; is that accurate?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Were more materials purchased in

12· ·2007?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were they the same

15· ·materials, the same product that you'd been applying

16· ·in the fall of '06, the silicone?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·While Mr. England was in charge

18· ·of repairing, we have purchased whatever he has

19· ·asked for.· After Mr. England, we have changed the

20· ·material, yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And we'll get there, but

22· ·Mr. England was fired in the summer of 2008;

23· ·correct?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Ms. Laroue testified, as well,

·1· ·that not all the materials necessary to finish the

·2· ·job in 2007 were ordered.· Was she testifying

·3· ·accurately?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I wouldn't say so.· Because we

·5· ·had -- we were purchasing by a large amount of

·6· ·material, every time we -- before it finished, we

·7· ·were ordering new material.· It could be that they

·8· ·were a few days late due to delivery or so on, but

·9· ·we always had material, even during the demolishing

10· ·there were lots of material left in the stock room.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·The mall was doing well

12· ·financially in 2007; correct?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If I could ask you to turn up in

15· ·volume 3, tab 46 which is Exhibit No. 4172.

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·This is a series of e-mails and

18· ·if we go to the second page, at the bottom of the

19· ·page -- no, the page before this, please.· Thank

20· ·you.

21· · · · · · · · · At the bottom of the page, there's

22· ·an e-mail from Mr. Tavares, and Mr. Tavares was your

23· ·contact at the Royal Bank?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Tavares, yes.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he sent you an e-mail --

·1· ·sorry, he sent Mr. Turner an e-mail on November 7th,

·2· ·in which he said:

·3· · · · · · · · · · "Please have the borrower

·4· · · · · · · · · provide a breakdown of the

·5· · · · · · · · · expenses reported in (Fiscal

·6· · · · · · · · · Year) 2006.

·7· · · · · · · · · · The expenses for Utilities,

·8· · · · · · · · · Maintenance + Repairs, and

·9· · · · · · · · · General & Administrative/Salary

10· · · · · · · · · + Benefits are significantly

11· · · · · · · · · high.· What is the reason for

12· · · · · · · · · this?· Have there been

13· · · · · · · · · renovations, capital

14· · · · · · · · · expenditures ..."

15· · · · · · · · · And so on.

16· · · · · · · · · And going up the page, Mr. Turner

17· ·responded:

18· · · · · · · · · · "At least half of these

19· · · · · · · · · questions I will have to hand

20· · · · · · · · · over to Bob Nazarian.· I do not

21· · · · · · · · · have immediate access to all of

22· · · · · · · · · these Profit & Loss, Balance

23· · · · · · · · · Sheet financials.

24· · · · · · · · · · I can tell you there were

25· · · · · · · · · significant renovations and

·1· · · · · · · · · capital expenditures in 2006 and

·2· · · · · · · · · 2007, ie, new public washrooms,

·3· · · · · · · · · additional lighting in the Mall,

·4· · · · · · · · · extensive work on the overhead

·5· · · · · · · · · parking area, and renovations to

·6· · · · · · · · · create new stores.· In essence,

·7· · · · · · · · · we have made the complex much

·8· · · · · · · · · more attractive and as a result

·9· · · · · · · · · we have added five new stores

10· · · · · · · · · and now have Staples and Ardenes

11· · · · · · · · · now in competition for

12· · · · · · · · · an 8,000 square foot store."

13· · · · · · · · · And if you go to the page prior to

14· ·that, first page, Mr.· -- you respond at the top of

15· ·the page -- well, first of all, in the middle of the

16· ·page there is an e-mail from Nita Monteagudo to

17· ·Mr. Tavares saying:

18· · · · · · · · · · "Any updates on the expense

19· · · · · · · · · breakdown for the subject deal?

20· · · · · · · · · · As an indication, the maximum

21· · · · · · · · · loan amount we would consider in

22· · · · · · · · · this instance is $6,000,000."

23· · · · · · · · · Were you looking for another loan in

24· ·the fall of '07, sir?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Always, sir.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·For what purpose?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To spend more money for

·3· ·renovation and fixing the roof.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, the e-mail says the

·5· ·maximum loan would be 6 million; that would have to

·6· ·be a take out loan; right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the amount that you owed on

·9· ·the first mortgage which was 6.35 million when you

10· ·borrowed it -- no, sorry -- 4.65?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·4.65.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So the idea would be to take

13· ·that out with a loan greater than that amount?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And that's what you were

16· ·communicating with Mr. Tavares for; is that right?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.· Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the top of the page, there

19· ·is an e-mail to Mr. Tavares from you on November

20· ·15th, in which you said:

21· · · · · · · · · · "I had a chance to talk to my

22· · · · · · · · · accountant re/financial

23· · · · · · · · · statement of Algo Mall.· The

24· · · · · · · · · result was.· Yes, we have made

25· · · · · · · · · lot of capital expenditure.· The

·1· · · · · · · · · net income of the mall at the

·2· · · · · · · · · present time is approx.

·3· · · · · · · · · $1,200,000 and rising.· Please

·4· · · · · · · · · call me tomorrow to discuss."

·5· · · · · · · · · Was that accurate, sir?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you were doing well in '07?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were spending well, as well,

·9· ·at the same time.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But $1.2 million for net income;

11· ·that's a lot of money?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Ms. Laroue testified that

14· ·in November of 2007, hundreds of tarps were ordered

15· ·with nozzles in the centre and a hose connected to

16· ·buckets, and the mall workers were busy taking down

17· ·the ceiling tiles and installing these tarps and

18· ·hoses above the ceiling tiles to collect the water;

19· ·was that accurate, sir?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I would say that's

21· ·exaggeration.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In what way?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·In every way possible.· We had

24· ·a few leaks here and there, and if there were tarps,

25· ·it was only in library and a few places in Zellers,

·1· ·not hundreds of tarps, and this kind of things.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, Ms. Laroue's evidence was

·3· ·not correct?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If I could have you turn, sir,

·6· ·to tab 50 of volume 3.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·50, you said?

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yeah, tab 50.

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Exhibit No. 1017.· I think

11· ·I have the wrong -- bear with me.· Tab 49, sir.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Tab 49 which is Exhibit --

14· · · · · · · · · MS. EFFENDI:· Exhibit No. 12-20.

15· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· This is an e-mail

17· ·from Rica Taylor.· Rica Taylor worked at the

18· ·Hudson's Bay Company, the owners of Zellers?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You know her; right?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And on December the 5th, 2007

23· ·she wrote an e-mail to somebody -- to two

24· ·individuals within the HBC and she wrote:

25· · · · · · · · · · "The landlord has been working

·1· · · · · · · · · on the roof all summer without

·2· · · · · · · · · success."

·3· · · · · · · · · Was that true, sir?· This e-mail --

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We got 100 per cent success,

·5· ·I would say.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·She goes on:

·7· · · · · · · · · · "From what I understand,

·8· · · · · · · · · leaking has been an issue at

·9· · · · · · · · · this mall since it was

10· · · · · · · · · constructed because the roof is

11· · · · · · · · · essentially a parking lot.

12· · · · · · · · · · When I spoke with Tom Turner

13· · · · · · · · · from the mall management office

14· · · · · · · · · late last week, he was making

15· · · · · · · · · arrangement for a tinsmith and

16· · · · · · · · · plumbers to install troughs

17· · · · · · · · · above the ceiling tiles to

18· · · · · · · · · divert the water.· He was going

19· · · · · · · · · to co-ordinate this with the

20· · · · · · · · · store manager.

21· · · · · · · · · · I requested that he send us

22· · · · · · · · · a recent engineer's study and

23· · · · · · · · · something in writing to confirm

24· · · · · · · · · how he plans (to) rectify the

25· · · · · · · · · situation permanently.

·1· · · · · · · · · · One of his solutions was to

·2· · · · · · · · · put a structure on top of the

·3· · · · · · · · · rooftop parking which would

·4· · · · · · · · · alleviate the problem in

·5· · · · · · · · · Zellers; however our lease

·6· · · · · · · · · restricts him from erecting

·7· · · · · · · · · an above ground structure in the

·8· · · · · · · · · centre.· I've asked him to send

·9· · · · · · · · · a proposal regarding this matter

10· · · · · · · · · for our consideration."

11· · · · · · · · · Was that accurate, sir?· Were you

12· ·considering installing some sort of a structure to

13· ·put above the rooftop parking?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And why were you considering

16· ·that in December of 2007?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was thinking every possibility

18· ·to make a permanent repair on this roof, so at this

19· ·time I thought probably we can kill two bird at

20· ·once, by putting another floor of mall and eliminate

21· ·this parking once forever.· And Zellers' lease was

22· ·restricted, that there's not supposed to be any kind

23· ·of structure on top of the roof.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And she was asking her superiors

25· ·whether that's --

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- that could be dealt with?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 51, sir,

·5· ·which is Exhibit No. 4068, this is a purchase order

·6· ·directed to Mr. Clinckett the architect dated

·7· ·December 18th, 2007 and it reads:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Deck enclosures and canopies.

·9· · · · · · · · · Please conduct feasibility

10· · · · · · · · · study/research for top parking

11· · · · · · · · · deck."

12· · · · · · · · · And then it says -- it is signed

13· ·"Brian" and then it says:

14· · · · · · · · · · "I will deliver prints Friday

15· · · · · · · · · December 21."

16· · · · · · · · · And then somebody's written in:

17· · · · · · · · · · "Preliminary investigation not

18· · · · · · · · · to exceed $2,000.

19· · · · · · · · · Structural/design not to exceed

20· · · · · · · · · $1,000."

21· · · · · · · · · And that's signed by you, sir.

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·On December 19th, 2007.

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did you come across

·1· ·Mr. Clinckett?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. England introduced me to

·3· ·Mr. Clinckett, but before that, in other shopping

·4· ·centres, I used Mr. Clinckett's expertise.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you'd used him before?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I knew.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He is an architect?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, he is.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what were you asking him to

10· ·do initially in December?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Virtually as it's stated here,

12· ·I was asking his help to see what we're supposed to

13· ·do to eliminate the leaks and fix the roof.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Does it -- was he asked to

15· ·eliminate the leaks?· It looks like -- well, all the

16· ·purchase order says is:

17· · · · · · · · · · "Deck enclosures and canopies

18· · · · · · · · · (and) ... feasibility study ...

19· · · · · · · · · for top parking deck."

20· · · · · · · · · Did you have discussions directly

21· ·with Mr. Clinckett?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you ask him to do

24· ·in those discussions?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Ask him exactly what it

·1· ·mentioned here, including the roof, if there is any

·2· ·suggestion that I could get from him.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if I could ask you to

·4· ·turn to tab 53, sir, Exhibit No. 1070.· This is

·5· ·a document entitled "Agenda, John

·6· ·Clinckett/Bob Nazarian January 2008".· And then

·7· ·there is a list of ten items.

·8· · · · · · · · · Do you recognize this document, sir?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what is it?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were trying to relocate

12· ·library which was complaining regarding the leaks to

13· ·probably a secure location and make a state of the

14· ·art new library, two-storey with escalator and

15· ·up-to-date renovation so I asked Mr. Clinckett to

16· ·look into it and see -- give me an idea of how we

17· ·are going to go.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's item number one on the

19· ·agenda.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who was this agenda prepared by?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This agenda was prepared by

23· ·Mr. Clinckett.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Not by Mr. England?· I just

25· ·thought it might be Mr. England because if you look

·1· ·in the lower left-hand corner --

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Possible.· I don't remember

·3· ·100 per cent.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you didn't?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I did not.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was this a list of things you

·7· ·wanted to talk to Mr. Clinckett about?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, including that heat pump

·9· ·I mentioned that Mr. Caughill put in Pet Valu, which

10· ·it was --

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's item no. --

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, item no. 6, which it was

13· ·not well prepared for it, and we had problem in the

14· ·winter.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you have a meeting with

16· ·Mr. Clinckett in January?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were these items discussed?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Item no. 8:

21· · · · · · · · · · "Core slab - roof -

22· · · · · · · · · investigate."

23· · · · · · · · · Can you tell me what that's about?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were -- we were -- I don't

25· ·remember 100 per cent.· I don't want to give wrong

·1· ·impression but it was -- if we were going to put

·2· ·additional weight on the roof was it possible or

·3· ·not.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if you turn to tab 57

·5· ·which is Exhibit No. 12-27, this is a memorandum

·6· ·from Mr. Turner to the HBC Zellers file at the mall,

·7· ·dated January 7, 2008.· And he wrote:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "I received a telephone call

·9· · · · · · · · · at 11:15 a.m. from Hudson's Bay

10· · · · · · · · · Company Head Office, Toronto.

11· · · · · · · · · On the speaker phone were three

12· · · · · · · · · executives from HBC."

13· · · · · · · · · He then names them, and he says:

14· · · · · · · · · · "The three people from HBC

15· · · · · · · · · were calling to express concern

16· · · · · · · · · about the leaks coming into the

17· · · · · · · · · Zellers store here at the Algo

18· · · · · · · · · Centre Mall.· In particular,

19· · · · · · · · · they were concerned because

20· · · · · · · · · employees at the store had

21· · · · · · · · · notified them that there was

22· · · · · · · · · water running through their

23· · · · · · · · · storeroom and down into their

24· · · · · · · · · electrical room.· The water was

25· · · · · · · · · apparently running right by the

·1· · · · · · · · · electrical panel itself.

·2· · · · · · · · · I advised them that we hadn't

·3· · · · · · · · · heard of this yet and that we

·4· · · · · · · · · would attend to it immediately.

·5· · · · · · · · · I advised Mark Gagnier, who

·6· · · · · · · · · seemed to be the lead in the

·7· · · · · · · · · conversation, that I would be in

·8· · · · · · · · · touch with him once we had

·9· · · · · · · · · determined the cause of the

10· · · · · · · · · leak.· They believe that it was

11· · · · · · · · · the roof as usual."

12· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, do you recall there being

13· ·a problem with Zellers in January of '08?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We had constantly problem with

15· ·the roof of the Zellers.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to the second

17· ·page, sir in the second-last paragraph, Mr. Turner

18· ·wrote:

19· · · · · · · · · · "I also discussed with Ganier

20· · · · · · · · · the fact that we were waiting

21· · · · · · · · · a report from our architect,

22· · · · · · · · · John Clinckett, as to whether or

23· · · · · · · · · not it was feasible to put

24· · · · · · · · · a roof structure over the

25· · · · · · · · · parking lot itself.· I told him

·1· · · · · · · · · that we expected the report

·2· · · · · · · · · sometime this week.· He advised

·3· · · · · · · · · me that HBC would have no

·4· · · · · · · · · objections to this type of

·5· · · · · · · · · structure.· He also appreciated

·6· · · · · · · · · the work that we have done to

·7· · · · · · · · · date and recognized that in

·8· · · · · · · · · stores throughout the country

·9· · · · · · · · · where they had overhead parking

10· · · · · · · · · above the store there were

11· · · · · · · · · similar problems."

12· · · · · · · · · Is this accurate, sir?· Were you

13· ·expecting a report from Mr. Clinckett in the second

14· ·week of January of '08?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 59, it is

17· ·Exhibit No. 3950.· These are notes from

18· ·Northern Reflections' files and Northern Reflections

19· ·was a store in the mall; right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And they're dated January 8th,

22· ·2008, the day after Mr. Turner's memo about the HBC

23· ·call, that we just spoke about.· And on the first

24· ·page the person from Northern Reflections wrote

25· ·"Coreslab."· At the top of the page it says "Brian

·1· ·England" so these may be notes about the

·2· ·conversation this person had with Mr. England.· The

·3· ·person wrote:

·4· · · · · · · · · · "Coreslab - when building was

·5· · · · · · · · · built roof was never

·6· · · · · · · · · waterproofed."

·7· · · · · · · · · And then it says:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Waterproofing ..."

·9· · · · · · · · · Could we pull that up a bit, please.

10· · · · · · · · · · "Waterproofing membrane 3"

11· · · · · · · · · asphalt.· Manufacturer

12· · · · · · · · · recommends."

13· · · · · · · · · I take it at this point you knew that

14· ·there was never a membrane installed --

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- under the -- on the roof?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right, but I was not

18· ·aware whether there was a second layer of concrete

19· ·there.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I thought, sir, yesterday

21· ·afternoon --

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I know, I apologize.· I saw that

23· ·report and Mr. Caughill's, but I have never really

24· ·seen that report previously, regardless of they have

25· ·sent it to me or not, so it was my mistake.

·1· ·I shouldn't have mentioned that I have seen it.

·2· · · · · · · · · Actually, I was arguing with my

·3· ·lawyer, Mr. Title, that there shouldn't be another

·4· ·layer.· If they lay another layer of concrete, we

·5· ·shouldn't see the seams of the hollowcore, but then

·6· ·after this Inquiry start, I learn that not only they

·7· ·have put the concrete, but they have cut the seams

·8· ·so it looks like the hollowcore, but in fact it was

·9· ·not hollowcore; it was a top layer.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, it seems from these notes,

11· ·sir, that Mr. England knew that there was at least

12· ·a recommendation for 3 inches of asphalt above the

13· ·core slabs.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. John Clinckett knew.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. Clinckett knew?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you didn't know?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And they never told you?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to the second

22· ·page, sir, after -- after the -- on about the sixth

23· ·line it says:

24· · · · · · · · · · "Major repair starting April

25· · · · · · · · · start,

·1· · · · · · · · · · Written warranty from

·2· · · · · · · · · manufacturer

·3· · · · · · · · · · Full waterproofing membrane

·4· · · · · · · · · 3 inches

·5· · · · · · · · · · Starting with Zellers/our

·6· · · · · · · · · store."

·7· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, on January 8th of 2008 had

·8· ·you decided to have a written -- sorry,

·9· ·a waterproofing membrane covered by 3 inches of some

10· ·material installed in April?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember this note, but

12· ·yes, we have discussed with Mr. Clinckett that

13· ·possibility.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you had not yet entered into

15· ·any contracts?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, not yet.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, while there was discussions,

18· ·there was no decision made?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if we turn, sir, to tab 60,

21· ·which is Exhibit No. 12-111.· This is a memorandum,

22· ·the same date as the Northern Reflections' note that

23· ·we just looked at, January 8th, 2008, again to

24· ·Zellers from Mr. Turner.· And he wrote:

25· · · · · · · · · · "I spoke with Rica Taylor this

·1· ·morning ...

·2· · ·Rica was following up on the

·3· ·telephone calls between me and

·4· ·the (vice-presidents) at Hudson

·5· ·Bay that took place yesterday.

·6· ·I went over the same information

·7· ·with Rica and advised her what

·8· ·the situation was.· She told me

·9· ·that she would contact the area

10· ·manager and ensure that the

11· ·drains on the canopy were

12· ·monitored regularly.

13· · ·In discussions with Rica, she

14· ·asked that I send her some sort

15· ·of memo or copy of a purchase

16· ·order that we issued to our

17· ·architect to study the potential

18· ·of an overhead structure to

19· ·cover the parking lot.

20· ·Confirmed with her that I would

21· ·send her a copy of the purchase

22· ·order.· This was done shortly

23· ·after I spoke with her.· The

24· ·purchase order that we issued

25· ·John Clinckett to do

·1· · · · · · · · · a preliminary study on the roof

·2· · · · · · · · · structure and feasibility study

·3· · · · · · · · · was forwarded off to her.· That

·4· · · · · · · · · should satisfy Hudson Bay for

·5· · · · · · · · · the time being."

·6· · · · · · · · · And then on the next page:

·7· · · · · · · · · · "I spoke with Bob Nazarian at

·8· · · · · · · · · 3pm today and he requested that

·9· · · · · · · · · I send a memo off to Rica Taylor

10· · · · · · · · · and Mark Ganier advising them

11· · · · · · · · · what our plans were with regards

12· · · · · · · · · to the roof and he posted this

13· · · · · · · · · in writing."

14· · · · · · · · · Do you recall this, sir?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So Zellers, your major tenant,

17· ·had concerns and you were taking them seriously.

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 65, which

20· ·is Exhibit No. 12-112, we see Mr. Turner's letter to

21· ·Ms. Taylor of January 17th, and I assume this was

22· ·the letter which he said he was going to post, in

23· ·the memo we just looked at.

24· · · · · · · · · And he writes in the second

25· ·paragraph, or in the first paragraph he says:

·1· · · · · · · · · · "As per your request I am

·2· · · · · · · · · writing to confirm we are

·3· · · · · · · · · working diligently on resolving

·4· · · · · · · · · this issue.

·5· · · · · · · · · · As I advised you and Marc

·6· · · · · · · · · Ganier, our architect is working

·7· · · · · · · · · concurrently on a plan to cover

·8· · · · · · · · · the overhead parking area.· He

·9· · · · · · · · · is investigating all types of

10· · · · · · · · · structure with the aim of

11· · · · · · · · · eliminating the leak problem by

12· · · · · · · · · keeping the elements out of the

13· · · · · · · · · problem areas.· At this time he

14· · · · · · · · · is in the preliminary reporting

15· · · · · · · · · stage and I have no results

16· · · · · · · · · I can share with you yet."

17· · · · · · · · · And was that -- did you see this

18· ·letter, sir?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And is it accurate?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if I could have you go back

23· ·now, sir, to tab 61 which is Exhibit No. 11-150.

24· ·And this is an internal e-mail inside the City from

25· ·Sue Morin, the Librarian, to members of the Board

·1· ·and Mr. Bauthus, the Chief Administrative Officer

·2· ·and members of City Council, and she wrote:

·3· · · · · · · · · · "Attached you will find

·4· · · · · · · · · a report from Tanya-Lee, Health

·5· · · · · · · · · & Safety Dept.· We are now

·6· · · · · · · · · without lights in the fiction,

·7· · · · · · · · · large print, French and

·8· · · · · · · · · children's area of the library,

·9· · · · · · · · · which adds up to half of the

10· · · · · · · · · library without lights.

11· · · · · · · · · · Spoke with Tom Turner, mall

12· · · · · · · · · manager, and he will make

13· · · · · · · · · arrangements to have

14· · · · · · · · · an electrician inspect all light

15· · · · · · · · · fixtures before they can be

16· · · · · · · · · turned back on.· This will be at

17· · · · · · · · · their expense.

18· · · · · · · · · · I will also call Bob Stirling

19· · · · · · · · · (Quest) today to arrange for

20· · · · · · · · · cleanup, air scrubber, etc, once

21· · · · · · · · · it stops leaking in the

22· · · · · · · · · library."

23· · · · · · · · · So, sir, I know you didn't see this

24· ·e-mail but it appears that early in January of 2008

25· ·this e-mail is -- this e-mail is January 9th --

·1· ·there were continuing problems in the library

·2· ·because of the leaks; right?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were you aware of those?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I was aware of it, and

·6· ·I have ordered that under any circumstances to

·7· ·satisfy library by cleaning up or washing the carpet

·8· ·or putting the air scrubber or anything they can do,

·9· ·and change the tiles if it's necessary.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If I could ask you, sir,

11· ·to turn to tab 64, Exhibit No. 1372, and you will

12· ·probably be able to read this better on the screen

13· ·because the type is extremely small.

14· · · · · · · · · We haven't got it on the screen yet

15· ·but if I can blow it up and go to the bottom of the

16· ·page first.· There is an e-mail from Mr. Tavares to

17· ·Mr. Pavlatos of the RBC, on January 17th, 2008 and

18· ·he writes:

19· · · · · · · · · · "The borrower for the subject

20· · · · · · · · · property ..."

21· · · · · · · · · The subject property being the mall,

22· ·the borrower being Eastwood:

23· · · · · · · · · · "... has an inquiry with

24· · · · · · · · · respect to the leasing reserve.

25· · · · · · · · · He says that he signed

·1· · · · · · · · · a 30-month agreement to put

·2· · · · · · · · · aside $5M --"

·3· · · · · · · · · Sorry, it says "5M," but I assume it

·4· ·means $5,000.

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·$5,000, that's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You weren't putting aside

·7· ·5 million a month:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "... to put aside $5,000/month

·9· · · · · · · · · into a leasing reserve as well

10· · · · · · · · · ($150,000) was held back at

11· · · · · · · · · closing in August/2005."

12· · · · · · · · · So stop there.· In fact, we've been

13· ·talking yesterday about 300,000 roughly, being held

14· ·back?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It is 300.· 150 advance, they

16· ·took it, plus 5,000 per month until it reaches to

17· ·$300,000.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· Thank you.

19· · · · · · · · · Mr. Tavares goes on to say:

20· · · · · · · · · · "The 30th month is coming up

21· · · · · · · · · in February and Mr. Nazarian is

22· · · · · · · · · inquiring what he has to do or

23· · · · · · · · · what he has to provide us in

24· · · · · · · · · order to have the funds

25· · · · · · · · · released.· Please advise ASAP."

·1· · · · · · · · · And then -- in a second we'll see the

·2· ·top e-mail.· There we go.· The top e-mail,

·3· ·Mr. Pavlatos responds to Mr. Tavares and says:

·4· · · · · · · · · · "Jim Davison of my office will

·5· · · · · · · · · be reviewing the file to verify

·6· · · · · · · · · what conditions had to be

·7· · · · · · · · · satisfied in order for the funds

·8· · · · · · · · · to be released."

·9· · · · · · · · · So, sir, in January -- mid January of

10· ·2008 you were seeing if you could get those funds

11· ·released; right?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's true.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·For what purpose?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·For the roof repair.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, and if you turn to tab 69,

16· ·which is Exhibit No. 1260, this is a letter -- this

17· ·is a letter to the tenants of the mall from you

18· ·dated February 4th, 2008, stating that mall

19· ·management had appointed Mr. England as the new

20· ·general manager.

21· · · · · · · · · Can you tell me, sir, why was

22· ·Mr. Turner replaced?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, there wasn't -- in the

24· ·exhibition (sic) previously I wish we could have had

25· ·that, it was stating exactly what was the reason.

·1· · · · · · · · · One of the main reason was that we

·2· ·had a tenant, a restaurant named "Peachy's" who owed

·3· ·us over $25,000 past rent, and Mr. Turner, without

·4· ·consultation took the initiative of writing a letter

·5· ·on behalf of Eastwood Mall Inc. and forgive all the

·6· ·backlog of the rent, and that was one of the reason.

·7· · · · · · · · · There were other reasons, as well.

·8· ·So, I had to take action, otherwise all other

·9· ·tenants would have get advantage of that situation

10· ·and these things would be damaging for the company.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 70, sir,

12· ·Exhibit No. 1261, this is a letter of the same date,

13· ·February 4, 2008, to Mr. Turner from you, and in

14· ·this letter, without reading through it line by

15· ·line, these are the reasons that you gave Mr. Turner

16· ·for replacing him with Mr. England; correct?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Correction, we have never fired

18· ·Mr. Turner, we just suspend his position for six

19· ·months.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. England was the person

21· ·who replaced him in that position?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Temporary, yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then ultimately Mr. Turner

24· ·resigned; is that right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. England stayed on as

·2· ·manager.

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, and --

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Until he was fired?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And I regret very much that

·6· ·situation, but I couldn't reverse it.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, if you turn, sir, to

·8· ·tab 77 -- oh, sorry, just before we leave, turn to

·9· ·tab 71, which is Exhibit No. 12-31.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm sorry, which tab?

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Tab 71.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's Exhibit No. 12-31.· And

14· ·this -- if we go down to the bottom of the first --

15· ·actually, if we go to the second page.

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·72?

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, no, the second page of tab

18· ·71.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, the second page, sorry.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So if we go to the bottom e-mail

21· ·on the second page, Mr. Cutberthson, who was the

22· ·manager of Zellers, sends an e-mail to Ms. Taylor

23· ·writing:

24· · · · · · · · · · "As of February 6, 2007 ..."

25· · · · · · · · · I'm sure he means 2008 because that's

·1· ·when he sent the e-mail:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "... the mall and plumber has

·3· · · · · · · · · not contacted (me) about the

·4· · · · · · · · · gutter to be installed into the

·5· · · · · · · · · ceiling area.· We have had

·6· · · · · · · · · a couple of warm day's were the

·7· · · · · · · · · leaks have started up again.

·8· · · · · · · · · Talked to Tom about the plumber

·9· · · · · · · · · not contacting me at the store.

10· · · · · · · · · He told me he would call the

11· · · · · · · · · plumber again about it.· As of

12· · · · · · · · · February 5, 2008 Tom is no

13· · · · · · · · · longer the mall manager it is

14· · · · · · · · · Brian England now.· Talked to

15· · · · · · · · · Brian on February 5 ... about

16· · · · · · · · · the leaks and the plumber he

17· · · · · · · · · told me he would get in touch

18· · · · · · · · · with the plumber."

19· · · · · · · · · And then going up to the e-mail above

20· ·that Mario Clouatre at HBC wrote to Mr. Ganier, one

21· ·of the vice presidents at HBC, and he says:

22· · · · · · · · · · "We need some type of support

23· · · · · · · · · for this store.· I was in there

24· · · · · · · · · yesterday and we have hoses

25· · · · · · · · · running into buckets on the

·1· · · · · · · · · floor, plastic over counters and

·2· · · · · · · · · aisles that are closed.· We are

·3· · · · · · · · · not any closer in solving

·4· · · · · · · · · a temporary solution as

·5· · · · · · · · · discussed at the beginning of

·6· · · · · · · · · January and in November.· Are we

·7· · · · · · · · · able to get this fixed

·8· · · · · · · · · temporarily and take the cost

·9· · · · · · · · · off the rent?· Or what would you

10· · · · · · · · · suggest as this is a real hazard

11· · · · · · · · · for our customers and

12· · · · · · · · · associates.· Please advise."

13· · · · · · · · · And then in the e-mail above that,

14· ·which is a response by Mr. Gagnier, he wrote:

15· · · · · · · · · · "Mario, I will talk to Don

16· · · · · · · · · since it is a landlord problem.

17· · · · · · · · · Has he started the gutter system

18· · · · · · · · · he told us he would be doing

19· · · · · · · · · along the expansion joints?"

20· · · · · · · · · And then the next e-mail from

21· ·Ms. Taylor to Mr. Gagnier and Mr. Clouatre it says:

22· · · · · · · · · · "The landlord has determined

23· · · · · · · · · that the problem we are

24· · · · · · · · · experiencing at Algo Centre is

25· · · · · · · · · due to the fact that there was

·1· · · · · · · · · no waterproof membrane installed

·2· · · · · · · · · for the roof parkade during the

·3· · · · · · · · · original construction in 1980.

·4· · · · · · · · · Brian England will be in Toronto

·5· · · · · · · · · early next week to meet with

·6· · · · · · · · · their Architect and Engineer

·7· · · · · · · · · regarding the repair solution

·8· · · · · · · · · and will arrange a meeting with

·9· · · · · · · · · us Monday or Tuesday to discuss

10· · · · · · · · · how they are going to resolve

11· · · · · · · · · this problem in the Spring.

12· · · · · · · · · · As for an interim solution,

13· · · · · · · · · I've been advised that the

14· · · · · · · · · plumbers were in the store last

15· · · · · · · · · week to do their measurement and

16· · · · · · · · · the troughs are being fabricated

17· · · · · · · · · now.· They will be installed by

18· · · · · · · · · the end of next week.· After

19· · · · · · · · · that the Landlord will remove

20· · · · · · · · · the yellow tarps and replace the

21· · · · · · · · · ceiling tiles."

22· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, you didn't see any of these

23· ·emails, but the conditions that it describes -- that

24· ·they describe at Zellers, were they, to the best of

25· ·your knowledge, accurate?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·More likely -- I can't recall

·2· ·exactly how it was but yes, we had problem.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in the e-mail -- in the

·4· ·e-mail I just read to you from Ms. Taylor on

·5· ·February 7th, she reports that Brian England would

·6· ·be in Toronto early the following week to meet with

·7· ·the architect and engineer about the repair

·8· ·solution.

·9· · · · · · · · · You had retained Mr. Clinckett who

10· ·was the architect.· Had you retained an engineer in

11· ·February of 2008?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Clinckett was an engineer,

13· ·as well as an architect.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I don't believe that's the

15· ·evidence, sir; was that what you understood?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's what I understood, yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And if we could turn,

18· ·sir, to tab 77, which is Exhibit No. 10-46.· This is

19· ·an e-mail dated February 19th, 2008 from Gail

20· ·Bachmann who was the manager at Northern Reflections

21· ·store in the mall and it is dated February 19th,

22· ·2008 and she's writing to other employees at

23· ·Northern Reflections and she writes about the -- as

24· ·she calls it, an update on the water problems at

25· ·Algo Centre.· She says that she has been speaking

·1· ·with the new mall manager, who would be Mr. England,

·2· ·and in the last sentence of the second paragraph she

·3· ·writes:

·4· · · · · · · · · · "I have spoken with him again

·5· · · · · · · · · today and he has advised that

·6· · · · · · · · · they now have a temporary and

·7· · · · · · · · · permanent solution to stop the

·8· · · · · · · · · water leaking problem.

·9· · · · · · · · · · For the short term, they have

10· · · · · · · · · constructed, for the lack of

11· · · · · · · · · a better description, downspouts

12· · · · · · · · · to install above our ceiling

13· · · · · · · · · that will flow the water from

14· · · · · · · · · the roof to a drain that is

15· · · · · · · · · located elsewhere in the mall.

16· · · · · · · · · Unlike the existing tarp and

17· · · · · · · · · hose that was previously

18· · · · · · · · · installed, this is a more stable

19· · · · · · · · · and constructed system that is

20· · · · · · · · · a safer and more reliable fix.

21· · · · · · · · · They have installed these

22· · · · · · · · · downspouts elsewhere in other

23· · · · · · · · · areas of the mall with success.

24· · · · · · · · · · The landlord will be

25· · · · · · · · · installing the downspouts some

·1· · · · · · · · · time this week and will

·2· · · · · · · · · co-ordinate with our store

·3· · · · · · · · · manager the timing of the

·4· · · · · · · · · installation so as not to

·5· · · · · · · · · interfere with business ... Once

·6· · · · · · · · · the work above our ceiling is

·7· · · · · · · · · complete the landlord will come

·8· · · · · · · · · back to our store ... and

·9· · · · · · · · · replace the ceiling tiles, clean

10· · · · · · · · · the carpet it required and

11· · · · · · · · · generally clean up."

12· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, does that accurately

13· ·describe what you understood was the situation in

14· ·mid February of 2008?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then Ms. Bachmann goes on to

17· ·write:

18· · · · · · · · · · "The more permanent fix to the

19· · · · · · · · · roof is slated to begin in April

20· · · · · · · · · (weather permitting).· The

21· · · · · · · · · landlord has an agreement in

22· · · · · · · · · place with the

23· · · · · · · · · manufacturer/installer of the

24· · · · · · · · · existing roof for them to

25· · · · · · · · · perform any required roof

·1· · · · · · · · · repairs, apply a new waterproof

·2· · · · · · · · · membrane and pour an additional

·3· · · · · · · · · insulation layer to the roof."

·4· · · · · · · · · Was that accurate, sir?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't recall that, sir.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, the manufacturer and

·7· ·installer of the existing roof was the Peterson

·8· ·company out of Michigan.· Did you ever have any

·9· ·dealings with the Peterson company?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, no, sir.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, it was inaccurate for

12· ·Mr. England to tell Ms. Bachmann, as appears from

13· ·this e-mail that you had an agreement in place with

14· ·the manufacturer of the existing roof; right?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you have an agreement in

17· ·place with anyone to apply a new waterproof membrane

18· ·in mid February of 2008?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Constantly we were in research

20· ·of a solution of that roof.· I don't remember

21· ·exactly who, when and what kind of agreement, but we

22· ·were constantly in search of finding a solution for

23· ·that.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I think we'll see shortly,

25· ·sir, when we go to the documents, Mr. Clinckett was

·1· ·involved in --

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- just let me finish --

·4· ·organizing a competition, a bid competition for bids

·5· ·on the job of installing a membrane on the roof, but

·6· ·that had not happened yet in February of 2008;

·7· ·right?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, you did not have

10· ·an agreement in place with anyone, to apply a new

11· ·membrane in February of 2008?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir, I can't

13· ·say.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It goes on to say:

15· · · · · · · · · · "They have a guarantee from

16· · · · · · · · · the roof manufacturer that this

17· · · · · · · · · will be a final fix to this long

18· · · · · · · · · outstanding problem."

19· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, that wasn't accurate, was

20· ·it?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you know that

23· ·Mr. England was telling these things to

24· ·Northern Reflections?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I really -- I don't recall this

·1· ·so I cannot comment on it.· I am sorry.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If you turn to tab 79, sir,

·3· ·Exhibit No. 161, this is an e-mail to Mr. England

·4· ·from Dale Swan who worked in the Building Department

·5· ·at the City of Elliot Lake.· On February 25th, 2008

·6· ·he sent this e-mail to Mr. England which reads:

·7· · · · · · · · · · "Just a quick note: Our

·8· · · · · · · · · complaints department in

·9· · · · · · · · · City Hall received a concern

10· · · · · · · · · regarding excessive vibration in

11· · · · · · · · · the roof-top parking lot.

12· · · · · · · · · I realize this may be normal and

13· · · · · · · · · may not be of concern, but

14· · · · · · · · · I must pass this information on

15· · · · · · · · · to you.· I suppose it may be

16· · · · · · · · · worse than usual?"

17· · · · · · · · · Did Mr. England tell you about this

18· ·e-mail?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.· I don't

20· ·recall.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was there vibration in the

22· ·roof-top parking lot?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It brought in my attention

24· ·before we called our engineer, Mr. Wood, and -- when

25· ·we were inquiring into 2009, but other than that, we

·1· ·didn't think that is a serious matter.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So let's take this one step at

·3· ·a time.· Did you know in February of 2008 that there

·4· ·was vibration in the parking lot?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't recall, sir.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When did you first learn

·7· ·that there was vibration in the parking lot?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Again, I don't remember when it

·9· ·was brought to my attention, but I remember I have

10· ·been told that there is a vibration before Mr. Wood

11· ·do the structural inspection, he has been told about

12· ·it.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. Wood did two

14· ·inspections in respect of the structure of the mall.

15· ·One was in October of 2009 --

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·2009.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- and one was in April of 2012?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Before which inspection did

20· ·you --

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think it was just before the

22· ·2009 inspection.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you do about this

24· ·knowledge?· To whom did you speak?· Did you speak to

25· ·Mr. Wood?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I speak to Mr. Wood, yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you tell him?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We told him to be cautious about

·4· ·this vibration, why it's happening and is there any

·5· ·kind of concern.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And was this before you --

·7· ·before he gave you his report?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was Mr. Wood's

10· ·response?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He said he would take care of

12· ·it.· He would take care of cars.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you yourself notice the

14· ·vibration?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, no, sir.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If I could have you turn to

17· ·tab 81, which is Exhibit No. 1364.

18· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, this is a memo to the

19· ·Elliot Lake Public Library Board from the Mall and

20· ·it is dated March 3rd, 2008, and the heading is

21· ·"Binding Letter of Intent".· And the letter says:

22· · · · · · · · · · "This letter is intended to

23· · · · · · · · · establish business terms that

24· · · · · · · · · will form the basis of a Lease.

25· · · · · · · · · It establishes a binding

·1· · · · · · · · · agreement upon any of the

·2· · · · · · · · · parties mentioned herein."

·3· · · · · · · · · And then it sets out various proposed

·4· ·terms for the lease renewal for the library; right?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were you aware of this

·7· ·letter, sir?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You approved it?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. England's name is on the

12· ·third page, but obviously this is something that you

13· ·would have approved?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I was involved.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this letter is addressed to

16· ·the Elliot Lake Public Library Board.· Can you tell

17· ·me, sir, at some point, the negotiations switched

18· ·from the Board to -- dealing with the Board, to

19· ·dealing with the City.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When did that happen?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember the dates.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did you learn that that was

24· ·going to -- that that's what was going to happen?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I understand that the Librarians

·1· ·were not very satisfied with the situation of the

·2· ·leak from the roof, and that they would like to move

·3· ·from that location and City, which was paying the

·4· ·rent, was happy where the library was and there was

·5· ·a little conflict between the Librarians and City,

·6· ·and at the same time, the lease was installing for

·7· ·a long time.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And when you say the library

·9· ·wanted to move from that location, did you

10· ·understand that they wanted to move to a different

11· ·location within the mall or out of the mall?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We suggested them to move into

13· ·the new location, much larger.· We will be spending

14· ·excessive money to make a brand new library, state

15· ·of the art, and larger than existing one.· I don't

16· ·know what it went wrong that they did not approve.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But, I just asked -- you said

18· ·a minute ago, that when I asked you why the

19· ·negotiations switched from dealing with the Board --

20· ·let me finish, from dealing with the library, to

21· ·dealing with the City, you said you understood that

22· ·the library wanted out of that location.

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And my question to you, sir, is:

25· ·Did you understand that the library wanted out of

·1· ·the mall or just out of that particular location at

·2· ·the mall?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Again -- again, I am not sure

·4· ·what was the reason.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you knew -- you did

·6· ·know that the library was concerned about the leaks?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Was concerned about the leaks.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And they did not want to stay

·9· ·where they were?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if we could turn to the

12· ·second page of this letter of intent, I can see you

13· ·were looking for a term of 20 years; right?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's a very long term for

16· ·a tenant.

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Used to be long term.· They were

18· ·there.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's right.· They'd had

20· ·a 20-year lease?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you were looking to keep

23· ·them there a long time.

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Library is an anchor tenant,

25· ·a triple A anchor tenant and we would like to keep

·1· ·them as long as is possible.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then under the heading

·3· ·"Minimum rent," the proposal that you made was to

·4· ·pay $13.50 net per square foot in the first five

·5· ·years, going to $14.50 net per square foot in the

·6· ·years 6 through 15 and then $15.50 net per square

·7· ·foot in years 16 through 20; right?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That was my suggestion, yes.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And that was a significant

10· ·increase from the rent they were paying which

11· ·I think was $8.80?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I would like to bring to

13· ·your attention that they were there for more than

14· ·ten years and in that ten years never they got any

15· ·raise.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You never got a raise?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's it.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's right.· They'd had

19· ·a long-term lease and they'd not had an increase in

20· ·rent for ten years?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Anyway, you started the bidding,

23· ·so to speak, at $13.50?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then under the heading

·1· ·"Additional rent":

·2· · · · · · · · · · The Lease will be entirely net

·3· · · · · · · · · and care free to the Landlord.

·4· · · · · · · · · The Tenant shall pay its

·5· · · · · · · · · proportionate share of all other

·6· · · · · · · · · costs of occupancy, including

·7· · · · · · · · · taxes and utilities, as outlined

·8· · · · · · · · · in the Lease."

·9· · · · · · · · · And that was a significant change;

10· ·right?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Because they did not have a net

13· ·lease before?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And previously they did not have

16· ·to pay a proportionate share of the costs?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Costs, that's right.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, sir, if I could have you

19· ·turn to tab 83, which is Exhibit No. 1370, this

20· ·is -- you're just looking at the first page of this

21· ·exhibit which is a memorandum to you and your wife,

22· ·dated March 10, 2008.· It appears to be from

23· ·Mr. England, and he writes:

24· · · · · · · · · · "Just a quick update on the

25· · · · · · · · · past week's events and what is

·1· · · · · · · · · keeping all of us busy."

·2· · · · · · · · · And if you go down to the -- about

·3· ·halfway down the page there is a line that says:

·4· · · · · · · · · · "Started install of drip pans

·5· · · · · · · · · for Zellers and

·6· · · · · · · · · Northern Reflections."

·7· · · · · · · · · And so that -- if that is consistent

·8· ·with your recollection, that is when the troughs

·9· ·underneath the leaking areas were starting to be

10· ·installed in Zellers and Northern Reflections?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·More likely.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then if you go down about

13· ·five or six lines you will see that there is a line

14· ·that says:

15· · · · · · · · · · "Library - mould found, called

16· · · · · · · · · in Quest to remove it."

17· · · · · · · · · Do you recall, sir, being advised in

18· ·March of 2008 that there was mould found in the

19· ·library?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I have heard about it, and

21· ·immediately I told him to tear off the drywall

22· ·completely and reinstall the brand new drywall.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you'll agree with me that

24· ·replacing the drywall cleaned up the mess, but it

25· ·didn't fix the problem.· The problem was caused by

·1· ·the leaks?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·By the leaks, yes, yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And so you had to fix the leaks

·4· ·in order to fix the problem?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I know.· We were, unfortunately,

·6· ·not able to seal the leaks.· As I previously stated,

·7· ·we were just trying to re-caulk the joints, but the

·8· ·water was penetrating from elsewhere, that later on

·9· ·I learned regardless of changing the caulking, it

10· ·would still leak.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in March of 2008 you were

12· ·dealing with Mr. Clinckett --

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- in an attempt to get a more

15· ·permanent fix; right?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then there is a line there:

18· · · · · · · · · · "Contacted contractors to

19· · · · · · · · · price roof."

20· · · · · · · · · Was that related to your dealings

21· ·with Mr. Clinckett?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then in the second-last line

24· ·there is a note that says:

25· · · · · · · · · · "Met with Wendall."

·1· · · · · · · · · I assume that's Wendall Farquhar?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·(Reading):

·4· · · · · · · · · · "... Re: snow removal - need

·5· · · · · · · · · to make changes for next year."

·6· · · · · · · · · Do you recall what the changes were

·7· ·you needed to make regarding snow removal?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·There were a few changes.· One

·9· ·of them was a strict order not to use the metal

10· ·blade, but use the rubber blade for snowplowing and

11· ·the other thing was that whether we have to put

12· ·ice-melters or sand and my order was that we

13· ·shouldn't be using salt again, we have to use some

14· ·kind of ice-melter.· A little bit more expensive but

15· ·at least it was secure for the structure.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And why did you give that order?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Because I wanted to keep the

18· ·mall for a very long time.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was your concern about

20· ·the salt?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The salt is deteriorating not

22· ·only the steel, but as well as the concrete, so it

23· ·is safer to use ice-melter, rather than salt.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you gave that instruction in

25· ·the spring of 2008?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, if I could have you turn,

·3· ·sir, to tab 80 --

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·80?

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- sorry, just -- 86.

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Which is Exhibit No. 92.· This

·8· ·is a document entitled "Structural report" from

·9· ·Mr. Clinckett and it's dated -- he has an unusual

10· ·dating system, March 13th, 2008.

11· · · · · · · · · Do you recall getting this report,

12· ·sir?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.· I think so.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this is the report that

15· ·you'd been asking him for; right?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in the -- he says that in

18· ·paragraph number 3:

19· · · · · · · · · · "The roof deck slabs were

20· · · · · · · · · designed to carry automobile,

21· · · · · · · · · snow & topping loading;

22· · · · · · · · · a diversity factor would include

23· · · · · · · · · for the addition of a waterproof

24· · · · · · · · · membrane and asphalt finish."

25· · · · · · · · · Do you recall reading that, sir?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you understand that

·3· ·to mean?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That mean the roof is made

·5· ·properly and they could put a membrane and asphalt

·6· ·on top and still use it as a parking.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· And if you go to

·8· ·paragraph number 5, he wrote:

·9· · · · · · · · · · "The engineer also mentioned

10· · · · · · · · · even if one were to put a roof

11· · · · · · · · · on there would still be

12· · · · · · · · · a requirement for a waterproof

13· · · · · · · · · membrane for the cars on the

14· · · · · · · · · deck level."

15· · · · · · · · · Do you recall reading that?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what conclusion did you

18· ·reach from that?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The conclusion is that when the

20· ·cars were running on the ramp towards the roof, they

21· ·would carry water which it would -- there is

22· ·a possibility of penetrating that water through the

23· ·roof, if it doesn't have membrane so, still we are

24· ·obliged to put membrane one way or the other.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yeah, not only water but they'd

·1· ·also have salt?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Salt as well, yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And so Mr. Clinckett's advice

·4· ·was, even if you put a roof on, it wouldn't solve

·5· ·the problem without a membrane.

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·At this stage, sir, what did you

·8· ·think the cost would be of putting a membrane and

·9· ·asphalt on; did you know?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I never thought of that at this

11· ·moment.· My whole concentration was how to repair

12· ·this roof, so I can have dignity and have my tenants

13· ·happy and bring new tenants in the mall.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, if I could have you go back

15· ·to tab 74 which is Exhibit No. 5373.· This is

16· ·a series of e-mails and if we turn to the second

17· ·page we can see that there is an e-mail, the top of

18· ·the page, on February 13th, 2008, to Mr. Gagnier,

19· ·the vice-president at Hudson's Bay, from

20· ·Mr. Cuthbertson, the -- well, from Mr. Clouatre, who

21· ·is forwarding on an e-mail from Mr. Cuthbertson,

22· ·which says:

23· · · · · · · · · · "... there has been no work to

24· · · · · · · · · the ceiling from the plumber.

25· · · · · · · · · Brian the mall manager was not

·1· · · · · · · · · in the last to (sic) days to get

·2· · · · · · · · · an update from him.· We had

·3· · · · · · · · · a fire inspector in the store

·4· · · · · · · · · today and was told the ceiling

·5· · · · · · · · · tiles need to be in place for

·6· · · · · · · · · a fire barrier.· We have 30 days

·7· · · · · · · · · to comply to the fire inspectors

·8· · · · · · · · · report."

·9· · · · · · · · · Were you aware that the City was

10· ·saying that the tiles had to be -- the ceiling tiles

11· ·had to be in place for fire?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't recall that, sir.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If I could have you turn, sir,

14· ·to tab 78, which is Exhibit No. 5374.· This is a fax

15· ·from Mr. Officer, the Fire Chief at the City of

16· ·Elliot Lake, to Mr. England, dated February 20th,

17· ·2008.· And the subject is "Fire Proofing Repair,"

18· ·and Mr. Officer writes:

19· · · · · · · · · · "As discussed a copy of the

20· · · · · · · · · consulting engineer with

21· · · · · · · · · a repair program for the

22· · · · · · · · · fireproofing repairs is

23· · · · · · · · · attached.

24· · · · · · · · · · I am following up to ensure

25· · · · · · · · · these repairs have taken place

·1· · · · · · · · · as my file does not have any

·2· · · · · · · · · further inspection or

·3· · · · · · · · · verification from Caughill on

·4· · · · · · · · · file.· Can you confirm in

·5· · · · · · · · · writing with the final signoff

·6· · · · · · · · · from Caughill Consulting that

·7· · · · · · · · · this issue has been completed?"

·8· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, Mr. Caughill was initially

·9· ·retained back in 2006 or early 2007 to deal with the

10· ·fireproofing issues; right?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah, by Mr. Turner.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· And he had been fired

13· ·before that was complete; right?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right, for some other issues.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· We talked about them

16· ·yesterday?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So as a result, the work to

19· ·finish up the fireproofing that had been required in

20· ·the fall of 2006 had not been finished; right?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.· My understanding.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 90, sir.

23· ·Just before we go there, can you tell me, sir, why

24· ·had the work not been finished as of February of

25· ·2008?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I was not aware of that.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you take any steps to -- on

·3· ·your own, to find out what was going on with the

·4· ·fire work that was required by the City?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was not told that there was

·6· ·a concern by the Fire Department, sir.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It was in the -- that was among

·8· ·the concerns that was expressed in the fall of 2006,

·9· ·was it not?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·As far as I know Zellers was

11· ·never been fire proofed.· The entire store which is

12· ·over 45,000 square foot, and this was not fire

13· ·proofed right from the day that they have built the

14· ·property, sir.· But other areas they were, but not

15· ·in Zellers.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm not asking you about

17· ·Zellers; I'm asking you about the work that was

18· ·required to be done in October of 2006.· According

19· ·to the emails we just read to you, sir, that work

20· ·had not been completed, by February of 2008 and as

21· ·you said, it was because Mr. Caughill was fired;

22· ·right?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And my question to you, sir, is:

25· ·What steps did you take to see that the work that

·1· ·was required in the fall of 2006 in respect to fire

·2· ·issues was done?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I remember now there was

·4· ·a discussion between me and Mr. Officer regarding

·5· ·that fireproofing locally a few feet in, if I'm not

·6· ·mistaking, in the food court, that I explained to

·7· ·Mr. Officer that the roof is not fixed yet, and the

·8· ·leak is continuing.· Even though we come and fire

·9· ·proof that area, a matter of first rain, the

10· ·fireproofing is going to fail.· So would you be kind

11· ·enough to be patient with us until we fix the roof

12· ·and make sure that there is no water leaking.· Then

13· ·we spray the fireproofing, otherwise we are working

14· ·for nothing.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When was that discussion, sir?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This discussion was -- I don't

17· ·remember what date, but I remember clearly that's

18· ·where I told him, and if I'm not mistaking, even

19· ·Mr. Fabris was present.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What year?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think at the same time.

22· ·I don't know.· I'm not good on dates, sir.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, sir, just so that we can

24· ·clear up what was ordered in October of 2006, if you

25· ·could go back to tab 18, which is Exhibit No. 11-23,

·1· ·this is a letter from Mr. Officer to you dated

·2· ·November 1st of 2006.· And he writes:

·3· · · · · · · · · · "As the result of a concern

·4· · · · · · · · · brought forward, an inspection

·5· · · · · · · · · of the noted property was

·6· · · · · · · · · conducted on October 23, 2006,

·7· · · · · · · · · at which time contraventions of

·8· · · · · · · · · the Ontario Fire Code were

·9· · · · · · · · · noted.· Descriptions of the

10· · · · · · · · · noted violations are listed

11· · · · · · · · · below."

12· · · · · · · · · And then he lists two sections of the

13· ·Fire Code which require fire operations and he then

14· ·writes:

15· · · · · · · · · · "In this regard, repair or

16· · · · · · · · · replace the proofing material

17· · · · · · · · · that has been removed or

18· · · · · · · · · dislodged from the structure

19· · · · · · · · · steel of the mall roof/parking

20· · · · · · · · · area in accordance with the

21· · · · · · · · · requirements of the Ontario

22· · · · · · · · · Building Code."

23· · · · · · · · · Now that's what you were ordered in

24· ·November of 2006; right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And that's what was not done by

·2· ·Mr. Caughill, as noted in the e-mails that we just

·3· ·looked at.

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And that's because Mr. Caughill,

·6· ·if he was ever hired to do that, was fired; right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And so my question to you, sir,

·9· ·is: What steps did you take to comply with the order

10· ·from Mr. Officer on November 1st, 2006?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·As I mentioned, sir, we were

12· ·trying very hard to seal the roof from leaking,

13· ·otherwise that job would have done for absolutely no

14· ·reason whatsoever because water would wash away over

15· ·and over if the leak continued so without repairing

16· ·the roof, spraying the fireproofing, did not have

17· ·a big meaning.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you did nothing?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I didn't do that.· I was working

20· ·on sealing the roof first before we spray.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·But when, later on that we will

23· ·see, when Mr. Officer insist and order and so on, we

24· ·looked for a person to fire proof, to satisfy

25· ·Mr. Officer, and we did.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And that was years, years after

·2· ·2006?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, but at the same time we

·4· ·were trying to seal the leak before.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in the years between --

·6· ·November 1, 2006 when you were ordered to do this,

·7· ·and when you finally did do what you did some years

·8· ·later, in those intervening years, there was

·9· ·inadequate fireproofing; right?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were trying at the same

11· ·time -- I repeat, sir -- to try to seal the leak

12· ·before -- before we spray.· Otherwise, we spray the

13· ·fireproofing and in matter of a week, if it rains,

14· ·it still is going to drop, so there was no meaning,

15· ·while it was leaking, to spray the fireproofing.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you tell the City that?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I stated that to

18· ·Mr. Officer.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In -- between 2006 and 2009?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe we have met

21· ·Mr. Officer a few time, even Mr. Fabris was with me,

22· ·in order to explain so that he would understand

23· ·where we are going.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you tell Mr. Officer,

25· ·that you were simply not going to do this?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But that's what you did?· You

·3· ·did nothing; right?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I repeat: I have tried to

·5· ·seal the roof before fireproofing, otherwise we were

·6· ·doing a wrong thing.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you never sealed the roof?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We tried.· We tried our best,

·9· ·sir.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I understand that, but in the

11· ·meantime, there was inadequate fireproofing; right?

12· · · · · · · · · MR. FULTON:· Objection,

13· ·Mr. Commissioner, my friend has now asked the same

14· ·question five times.· My client has now answered the

15· ·same question five times.

16· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· No, I don't think

17· ·he's answered the question.· I disagree with you.

18· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In the meantime, there was

20· ·inadequate fireproofing; right?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you knew that?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course, I knew that.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Weren't you concerned that that

25· ·was a safety problem, and the people in the mall

·1· ·were -- their safety was being put at risk?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, entire Zellers, which is

·3· ·one-third of the mall, did not have fireproofing.

·4· ·There was no concern about there, but the two or

·5· ·three feet of fireproofing missing in food court was

·6· ·a very big concern.· How could you justify that?

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm not justifying it, sir.· You

·8· ·were ordered by the Fire Chief to do it and you

·9· ·chose not to do it; right?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir --

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir --

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Isn't that right?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It was wrong, regardless of Fire

15· ·Chief what he says.· If the leak is continuing, the

16· ·fireproofing is not adequate.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you decided he was wrong;

18· ·right?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I did not.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You made that decision?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I do not accept that.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you decided not to do the

23· ·work you were ordered to do.

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I do not accept that statement.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You decided not to do the work?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I wanted to do the job properly.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You were also ordered at the

·3· ·same time to fix the leaks; right?· Right?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, you are trying to create

·5· ·some kind of uncomfortable feeling.· We tried all

·6· ·the time to fix the leaks, we have never stopped and

·7· ·our logic was we have to fix the leak before we

·8· ·spray the fireproofing, and that is the final.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, if I could have you turn to

10· ·tab 90, Exhibit No. 12-36.· If we start at the

11· ·second page, sir, this is an e-mail from

12· ·Mr. Cuthbertson on March 18th, 2008 to Ms. Taylor,

13· ·about the leaks and he wrote:

14· · · · · · · · · · "Rica yesterday I had

15· · · · · · · · · associate question me about the

16· · · · · · · · · air in the store and that some

17· · · · · · · · · associates may be getting sick

18· · · · · · · · · from the tile having mould on

19· · · · · · · · · them.· I told them that we were

20· · · · · · · · · changing tiles if they had been

21· · · · · · · · · wet but I have over 400 tiles

22· · · · · · · · · with brown stains on them.· The

23· · · · · · · · · bank next door is going to share

24· · · · · · · · · there (sic) report when they get

25· · · · · · · · · it in.· Talk to the mall about

·1· · · · · · · · · the mould and was told they were

·2· · · · · · · · · looking into it for the mall."

·3· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, did you know that in March

·4· ·of 2008, there were over 400 stained tiles in

·5· ·Zellers?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, we have changed the entire

·7· ·tiles in Zellers twice.· Twice, twice in the period

·8· ·of time that I owned the mall.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Before '08, before March of '08?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember the date but we

11· ·have changed twice entire store's tile to satisfy

12· ·Zellers.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So that if they -- in March of

14· ·2008, if they had 400 tiles with brown stains on

15· ·them, that's an indication of how bad the leaks

16· ·were; right?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Going on to the first page --

19· ·Ms. Taylor responds by saying she would speak with

20· ·the mall and find out what's going on and then on

21· ·the first page Mr. Gooley at the Hudson's Bay

22· ·Company, in the facilities management section, wrote

23· ·to Ms. Taylor and said:

24· · · · · · · · · · "I was afraid this would

25· · · · · · · · · happen.· Please tell the mall

·1· · · · · · · · · that if they don't get the tiles

·2· · · · · · · · · changed real quick there is

·3· · · · · · · · · a chance the employees could

·4· · · · · · · · · shut down the store ... you may

·5· · · · · · · · · want to get Ann or Don involved

·6· · · · · · · · · in this.

·7· · · · · · · · · · Did they ever install the

·8· · · · · · · · · 'Trough' system???"

·9· · · · · · · · · And Ms. Taylor replied:

10· · · · · · · · · · "Yes, the troughs were put in

11· · · · · · · · · last week but only in the back

12· · · · · · · · · of the store.

13· · · · · · · · · · The mall advises that they do

14· · · · · · · · · not think we have a mould

15· · · · · · · · · problem, but just brown tiles,

16· · · · · · · · · but will call in Quest to

17· · · · · · · · · investigate and advise.

18· · · · · · · · · · I'll keep you informed."

19· · · · · · · · · So, at this stage, you had been

20· ·advised, sir, had you, that Zellers thought that

21· ·there was a mould problem at their store?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I'm not aware of this

23· ·communication and our engineer, Mr. Wood, has

24· ·examined the store, not maybe at the same date, but

25· ·later date, and find no mould and gave us

·1· ·a certification on that.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, sir, the next tab, tab 91,

·3· ·Exhibit No. 13-12 is a report from Pinchin

·4· ·Environmental Engineering and it's dated March 1st,

·5· ·2008.· It is an assessment and in the first page it

·6· ·notes that Ms. McCulloch from customer service at

·7· ·Scotiabank reported that there had been ongoing roof

·8· ·leaks for several years, that -- and then moving

·9· ·down to the next not a bullet line, it says:

10· · · · · · · · · · "Mr. Brian England,

11· · · · · · · · · Maintenance Manager for the

12· · · · · · · · · Mall, reported the

13· · · · · · · · · following ..."

14· · · · · · · · · And he reported about filters and

15· ·an air handling unit.

16· · · · · · · · · And then on the second page the

17· ·engineers wrote:

18· · · · · · · · · · "Suspect mould growth was

19· · · · · · · · · identified at the following

20· · · · · · · · · locations:

21· · · · · · · · · · 1.· The full length of the

22· · · · · · · · · south wall of the branch

23· · · · · · · · · (62 feet in length) from floor

24· · · · · · · · · level to six inches in height.

25· · · · · · · · · Drywall on the south wall was

·1· · · · · · · · · wet from floor level to two feet

·2· · · · · · · · · in height.· Drywall on the south

·3· · · · · · · · · wall in the southwest corner was

·4· · · · · · · · · wet to four feet in height.

·5· · · · · · · · · · 2.· On the underside of carpet

·6· · · · · · · · · tile and on the concrete floor

·7· · · · · · · · · beneath the carpet along the

·8· · · · · · · · · full length of the south wall of

·9· · · · · · · · · the branch extending one foot

10· · · · · · · · · out from the wall.

11· · · · · · · · · · 3.· On the north wall of the

12· · · · · · · · · corridor and south and west

13· · · · · · · · · walls of the coat closet on the

14· · · · · · · · · lower six inches of drywall.

15· · · · · · · · · Drywall was wet on all mouldy

16· · · · · · · · · walls from floor level to one

17· · · · · · · · · foot in height.

18· · · · · · · · · · 4.· Approximately four

19· · · · · · · · · square feet on the drywall

20· · · · · · · · · ceiling in the electrical room.

21· · · · · · · · · · 5.· Approximately one square

22· · · · · · · · · foot on the remaining drywall

23· · · · · · · · · ceiling in the coat closet."

24· · · · · · · · · And then moving down a few paragraphs

25· ·they wrote:

·1· · · · · · · · · · "Mould growth was confirmed on

·2· · · · · · · · · drywall collected from the south

·3· · · · · · · · · wall of the branch by the vault

·4· · · · · · · · · and the north wall of the

·5· · · · · · · · · corridor by the vault."

·6· · · · · · · · · And then at the bottom of the

·7· ·page they wrote:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Based on these findings, the

·9· · · · · · · · · following recommendations are

10· · · · · · · · · offered at this time:

11· · · · · · · · · · 1.· Ensure that roof leaks are

12· · · · · · · · · repaired by the landlord;

13· · · · · · · · · · 2.· Replace water stained

14· · · · · · · · · ceiling tiles throughout the

15· · · · · · · · · branch and monitor new tiles for

16· · · · · · · · · ongoing leaks;

17· · · · · · · · · · 3.· Install new ceiling tiles

18· · · · · · · · · in any openings in the ceiling

19· · · · · · · · · space."

20· · · · · · · · · And then:

21· · · · · · · · · · "4.· Perform the following

22· · · · · · · · · work using Canadian Construction

23· · · · · · · · · Association ... mould

24· · · · · · · · · procedures."

25· · · · · · · · · And then at the top of the next page:

·1· · · · · · · · · · "a.· Remove and dispose the

·2· · · · · · · · · full length of drywall,

·3· · · · · · · · · insulation and vapour barrier

·4· · · · · · · · · from the entire south wall of

·5· · · · · · · · · the branch from floor level to

·6· · · · · · · · · four feet in height."

·7· · · · · · · · · And then went on to recommend further

·8· ·work.· Did you get a copy of that report, sir?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And as a result, you knew that

11· ·in March of 2008 there were -- there was mould

12· ·growing as a result of the leaks in the Scotiabank?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The action I have taken is

14· ·immediately I notified Mr. Wood to come over and do

15· ·the mould inspection, not only in the Scotiabank but

16· ·adjacent stores, Zellers and the other side, as

17· ·well.· And he was denied to enter into the

18· ·Scotiabank, but he did inspection in Zellers store,

19· ·adjacent wall and the adjacent -- the other side of

20· ·the Scotiabank and he find no mould whatsoever.

21· · · · · · · · · Nevertheless, we have suggested

22· ·Zellers -- Scotiabank that we would do anything to

23· ·remedy the damage, if there is floor to be cleaned

24· ·up or if there is a ceiling tile to be removed or so

25· ·on, and -- but it seems like Scotiabank was decided

·1· ·to use our clause that we will remedy, in case of

·2· ·the leak, and create expenses.· As simple as that.

·3· ·And that's exactly what they did.· They did not pay

·4· ·for two years of rent.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·They did not pay for two years

·6· ·of rent because the bank took the position --

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- let me finish -- took the

·9· ·position that they spent money to fix the damage

10· ·caused by the leaks and they were setting off the

11· ·money they spent against the rent; right?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, no, I do not agree with

13· ·you.· What they did is they have removed half of --

14· ·half of the wall, like four feet from the floor, the

15· ·drywall all over the place, and that's all what they

16· ·have done.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But that's what -- that's what

18· ·the report said they should do; right?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·But that is not $150,000.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In any event, I'm not asking you

21· ·to agree that --

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I do not agree, sir.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm not asking you to agree that

24· ·what they did was right; I'm simply saying that they

25· ·took the position that they'd spent this money,

·1· ·which amounted to ultimately about $150,000 and

·2· ·they, using the clause you had agreed with them on

·3· ·the lease, they set that off against the rent;

·4· ·right?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So they held back the rent?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And, sir, did you have any

·9· ·reason to disbelieve the assessment of the

10· ·authors -- the engineer who wrote this report?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I can't dispute.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, there was mould and not only

13· ·that, there were these significant leaks in the

14· ·bank?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I presume there was.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And am I --

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Can I give a description,

18· ·please?

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Certainly.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·There was a time that we had

21· ·severe rain for more than two months and we didn't

22· ·have a single drop of water in the Scotiabank.· And

23· ·our maintenance people every day they were passing

24· ·by, checking whether there is any leak or not,

25· ·regarding of it's raining or it's dry, we did not

·1· ·have a drop of rain because we have spent

·2· ·substantial time and energy to make sure that we are

·3· ·repairing the roof.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When was that?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This was almost the same time.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Same time as what?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We didn't have a single drop of

·8· ·rain -- drop of water in the Scotiabank.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm asking you when, sir, when

10· ·did that happen?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember the date, sir,

12· ·I am sorry.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you remember the year?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What year?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It was almost the same time,

17· ·like 2008, 2000 -- probably 9, before they renew the

18· ·lease.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, the report from Pinchin

20· ·that we've been looking at, their first

21· ·recommendation was to ensure that the roof leaks

22· ·were repaired.

23· · · · · · · · · Am I correct that this convinced you

24· ·even more, if you needed more convincing that to

25· ·deal with the problem you had to fix the leaks?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And sir, if I could have you

·3· ·turn to tab 94, which is Exhibit 12-38, and this, if

·4· ·you go to the bottom of the page, sir, the first

·5· ·e-mail is March 18, 2008, to Ms. Taylor from Henri

·6· ·McCleery, who later changed her name to Henri

·7· ·Laroue, and she wrote:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Was just informed that the

·9· · · · · · · · · Bank of Nova Scotia which is

10· · · · · · · · · directly beside Zellers here in

11· · · · · · · · · the mall in Elliot Lake, had air

12· · · · · · · · · quality and air contaminates

13· · · · · · · · · testing done on Friday,

14· · · · · · · · · March 14, 2008.· The report

15· · · · · · · · · indicated that everything was

16· · · · · · · · · fine."

17· · · · · · · · · Now, sir we've just looked at the

18· ·report.· You will agree with me that the report did

19· ·not indicate that everything was fine?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm sorry?· I don't understand.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·We just looked at the report

22· ·that Mr. Laroue is talking about here.· She is

23· ·writing to Ms. Taylor and says:

24· · · · · · · · · · "Was just informed that the

25· · · · · · · · · Bank of Nova Scotia ... had air

·1· · · · · · · · · quality and air contaminates

·2· · · · · · · · · testing done ... (and) The

·3· · · · · · · · · report indicated that everything

·4· · · · · · · · · was fine."

·5· · · · · · · · · The report that we just looked at,

·6· ·which was dated March 18, 2008, did not indicate

·7· ·that everything was fine; right?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not aware of that

·9· ·conversation, please.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, no, listen to my question.

11· ·I didn't ask you about a conversation.· I asked you

12· ·to agree with me, that the report we just looked at,

13· ·did not indicate that everything was fine.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know what logic she was

15· ·talking about at this point, sir, I cannot state my

16· ·opinion.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you do agree that the report

18· ·we just looked at, did not indicate that everything

19· ·was fine?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure whether we have

21· ·done an air quality in Scotiabank to indicate that,

22· ·not Pinchin but our own independent, so I cannot

23· ·state whether that was right or wrong.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, sir, the e-mail I just

25· ·read to you clearly is talking about a report that

·1· ·the bank had done; right?· That's what she says:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "Was just informed that the

·3· · · · · · · · · Bank of Nova Scotia ... had air

·4· · · · · · · · · quality and air contaminates

·5· · · · · · · · · testing done on Friday March 14

·6· · · · · · · · · ... the report indicated that

·7· · · · · · · · · everything was fine."

·8· · · · · · · · · And you told me a moment ago that you

·9· ·saw the report dated March 18th, 2008, and I'm

10· ·simply asking: Can we agree that that report did not

11· ·say that everything was fine?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I do not.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You do not?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The reason why --

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Despite what I just read to

16· ·you --

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Probably -- please, allow me to

18· ·explain.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'll let you explain.· Go ahead.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Probably -- I don't remember --

21· ·but probably, more likely, that Scotiabank himself

22· ·hired another company, not Pinchin, to do the air

23· ·quality and they give the quality was all right.

24· ·I cannot -- I cannot get suggestion that this is

25· ·talking about Pinchin's report.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It would be another report.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· If you go to the top

·4· ·of the page, sir, there then is a response from

·5· ·Ms. Taylor to Ms. McCleery with a copy to

·6· ·Mr. England dated March 24th, 2008 and she writes:

·7· · · · · · · · · · "Further to our telephone

·8· · · · · · · · · conversation last week, I've

·9· · · · · · · · · just been notified that when the

10· · · · · · · · · bank tested their premises,

11· · · · · · · · · mould was found in the wall

12· · · · · · · · · adjacent to the Zellers store in

13· · · · · · · · · Algo Centre.

14· · · · · · · · · · Therefore, would you please

15· · · · · · · · · arrange to have the Zellers

16· · · · · · · · · store tested for mould

17· · · · · · · · · contamination as soon as

18· · · · · · · · · possible and forward us

19· · · · · · · · · a complete report ..."

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And that's what we did.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Now, sir, if we turn

22· ·to tab 95, which is Exhibit No. 93, this is a series

23· ·of documents which -- from Mr. Clinckett's office

24· ·and if you go about eight pages in?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I beg your pardon?

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If you go about eight pages

·2· ·in -- turn four pages in the book in front of you,

·3· ·at tab 95 --

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Okay.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- there is a document which has

·6· ·a note on the top of it that says "From The Desk of

·7· ·The Evil Dwarf."

·8· · · · · · · · · Do you do you see that?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I see it.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It is hard to miss.· The very

11· ·last tab in the book.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't have it, sir.· That's

13· ·fine.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You can look at the screen.

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's fine.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In any event, The Evil Dwarf,

17· ·we've been told by Mr. England that that's what he

18· ·was called.· Is that -- did you know that?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, this is a --

21· ·something from Mr. England's note pad and he writes:

22· · · · · · · · · · "Good afternoon Sketch: (John

23· · · · · · · · · Clinckett)

24· · · · · · · · · · Here's my list of contractors

25· · · · · · · · · to date."

·1· · · · · · · · · And then he lists six contractors.

·2· ·Now, sir, did you know what this was about?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were looking for contractors

·4· ·for the roof.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Okay.· And that's

·6· ·part of what Mr. Clinckett was doing for you; right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·8· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Tell me when it's

·9· ·an appropriate time for us to take a break.

10· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Just one second,

11· ·Mr. Commissioner.

12· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Your Honour, if we may

13· ·-- could --

14· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Yeah, we will.

15· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· This would be

16· ·an appropriate time, Mr. Commissioner.

17· · · · · · · · · --- RECESS AT 10:29 A.M.

18· · · · · · · · · --- RESUMED AT· 10:46 A.M.

19· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Thank you,

20· ·Mr. Commissioner.

21· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Nazarian, we were looking at

23· ·tab 95 of Volume 3 which is Exhibit No. 93.· And we

24· ·were looking at Mr. Clinckett's list of contractors.

25· · · · · · · · · If you turn back two pages in that,

·1· ·so it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 -- the 6th page, which is

·2· ·another copy of Mr. Clinckett's structural report

·3· ·that we looked at earlier.· Do you have that, sir?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir, but I'm going to use

·5· ·mine.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay, it should be in there.

·7· ·It's the very last tab in the book.

·8· · · · · · · · · But in any event, it's a short

·9· ·question: You can see that in paragraph -- which

10· ·Mr. Clinckett numbers "1," he notes:

11· · · · · · · · · · "We had the opportunity to

12· · · · · · · · · review the following documents."

13· · · · · · · · · And then he lists some drawings.· And

14· ·then in the very last line, he says:

15· · · · · · · · · · "Halsall Structural Condition

16· · · · · · · · · Assessment dated (May 10th

17· · · · · · · · · 1999)."

18· · · · · · · · · That's one of the reports, I showed

19· ·you yesterday, sir, the report prepared by Halsall

20· ·engineers on May 10th, 1999, about the structural

21· ·assessment of the parking lot.· And Mr. Clinckett

22· ·received this, the evidence is, from Mr. -- from

23· ·Mr. Turner who got it from Mr. Bruce Caughill.

24· · · · · · · · · Now, when you read this report from

25· ·Mr. Clinckett, sir, did you notice that he had said

·1· ·that he had referred to this assessment?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have never received at that

·3· ·time, the report originally.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you received Mr. Clinckett's

·5· ·report?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I could have been.· I don't

·7· ·remember.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I just asked you about it

·9· ·about half an hour ago, sir.

10· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Could we show the whole

11· ·page for Mr. Nazarian, please, so that we can see

12· ·the entire document?· Thank you.

13· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·This is Mr. Clinckett's

15· ·structural report, and I showed this to you just

16· ·about half an hour ago, another copy of it.· And

17· ·this is the one where -- and I read to you where he

18· ·wrote in item number 3:

19· · · · · · · · · · "The roof deck slabs were

20· · · · · · · · · designed to carry automobile,

21· · · · · · · · · snow & topping loading;

22· · · · · · · · · a diversity factor would include

23· · · · · · · · · for the addition of a waterproof

24· · · · · · · · · membrane and asphalt finish."

25· · · · · · · · · And you will recall I read that to

·1· ·you, asked you if you received the report.· You said

·2· ·you did.· I asked you what you took from that

·3· ·sentence and you said you concluded from that, that

·4· ·you could put a membrane and an asphalt topping on

·5· ·top of the roof; right?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right, I remember that we

·7· ·have discussed about this thing, as well as I think

·8· ·I have received this.· I am not very sure, but

·9· ·I think I have received this -- this report, and we

10· ·were discussing excessively of how to repair the

11· ·roof.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· And my question to you

13· ·was, sir, when you received the report and read it,

14· ·did you notice that Mr. Clinckett said that he had

15· ·reviewed the Halsall Structural Condition Assessment

16· ·dated May 10th, 1999?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have never received the

18· ·Halsall Report at that time.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, please, listen to my

20· ·question:· When you received this report from

21· ·Mr. Clinckett --

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- did you notice that he said

24· ·that he had reviewed the Halsall Structural

25· ·Condition Assessment dated May 10th, 1999?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, he said this.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You noticed that he said it?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, that's right.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you then ask him: What is

·5· ·the Halsall Structural Condition Assessment?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Unfortunately, I didn't ask

·7· ·that.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did he say anything to you

·9· ·about it --

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Umm...

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- orally?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Orally, that the roof -- the

13· ·roof is sound, the building is sound, and it can

14· ·carry all kind of weights.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did he say that about -- my

16· ·question to you was: Did he say anything to you

17· ·about the Halsall Structural Condition Assessment?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not to detail.· Not to detail.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Not what, sir?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not to detail.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did he say anything about it

22· ·at all?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, he only mentioned that,

24· ·according to the Halsall Report.· But I have never

25· ·seen the Halsall Report.· I did not have a copy of

·1· ·it.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So he did mention to you the

·3· ·report, but you did not ask him anything more?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.

·6· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, if we could just go back

·7· ·and deal with one issue, so that we are entirely

·8· ·clear on the record, and that is tab 94, which is

·9· ·Exhibit No. 12-38.· And this is the e-mail, first of

10· ·all, from Ms. McCleery to Ms. Taylor.· And at the

11· ·bottom of the page, if we could have it brought up

12· ·a little bit, on March the 18th, 2008,

13· ·Ms. McCleery -- and we went over this -- wrote to

14· ·Ms. Taylor and said:

15· · · · · · · · · · "Was just informed that the

16· · · · · · · · · Bank of Nova Scotia ... had air

17· · · · · · · · · quality and air contaminates

18· · · · · · · · · testing done on Friday,

19· · · · · · · · · March 14, 2008. The report

20· · · · · · · · · indicated that everything was

21· · · · · · · · · fine."

22· · · · · · · · · And I asked you whether you knew she

23· ·was saying that and you told me you were not sure

24· ·whether there was a -- another report that tested

25· ·air quality and air contaminants, rather than mould;

·1· ·do you remember that?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if we go back to the report

·4· ·dated March 18, 2008, from Pinchin which is at

·5· ·tab 91, which is Exhibit No. 13-12, on the second

·6· ·page we can see towards the bottom of the page -- if

·7· ·you bring it up a little bit, they report:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Air samples collected

·9· · · · · · · · · throughout the branch were

10· · · · · · · · · similar in spore type and

11· · · · · · · · · quantity when compared to the

12· · · · · · · · · outdoor samples.· The air sample

13· · · · · · · · · collected from the ceiling space

14· · · · · · · · · had elevated

15· · · · · · · · · Penicillium/Aspergillus-like

16· · · · · · · · · spore levels.· The elevated

17· · · · · · · · · levels are likely due to high

18· · · · · · · · · dust levels commonly present in

19· · · · · · · · · ceiling spaces, as well as dust

20· · · · · · · · · being generated by the

21· · · · · · · · · contractors working in the

22· · · · · · · · · ceiling space."

23· · · · · · · · · So this did -- this report did deal

24· ·with the air; right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And it did not find anything

·2· ·very wrong with it?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So going back to Ms. Taylor --

·5· ·sorry, Ms. McCleery's e-mail at tab 94, Exhibit No.

·6· ·12-38, when she said that the bank had air quality

·7· ·and air contaminants testing and the report

·8· ·indicated that everything was fine, first of all,

·9· ·can we agree that they did not quite say that

10· ·everything about the air quality and air

11· ·contaminants was fine, but they did not find much

12· ·too bad about it; right?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Correct.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·They said it was not that bad;

15· ·right?

16· · · · · · · · · So the e-mail she sent was not

17· ·entirely correct on what the report said about the

18· ·air quality?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.· From here we can

20· ·understand it could be the Pinchin's report after

21· ·testing the air and coming with the result, or

22· ·somebody else.· I don't know.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, do you know of any other

24· ·report at that time?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember at all.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But can we agree that if what

·2· ·Ms. McCleery was trying to do was to say that this

·3· ·report of March 18th, 2008, said everything was

·4· ·fine, that would not have been?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I can't comment on that. I

·6· ·don't know.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You won't agree with me on that?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't -- I cannot comment.

·9· ·I don't know.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But the report -- are you saying

11· ·the report says everything was fine?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's what it says here, but

13· ·I --

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But the report, we just went

15· ·through the report.· It doesn't say everything's

16· ·fine, does it?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I can't -- I can't comment.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I think you can, but you

19· ·don't want to.· But in any event, my next question

20· ·to you, sir, is: Do you have any discussion with

21· ·Ms. McCleery about the Pinchin Report of March 18th,

22· ·2008, and how she should describe it to any of your

23· ·tenants?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, sir, I wonder if you could

·1· ·pick up Volume 4 and turn to tab 4, which is Exhibit

·2· ·No. 12-40.

·3· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· I don't think he has the

·4· ·volume.

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Are we finished with this?

·6· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I believe -- I believe we are.

·8· ·Yeah, I think you can put Volume 3 away, sir.· I've

·9· ·got the wrong tab.· Darn.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Thank you, sir.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It's Exhibit No. 230 is what I'm

12· ·looking for.· And, sir, it's tab 12-41.· It is

13· ·tab 41, sir.· Sorry, I was right the first time.

14· · · · · · · · · Tab 4.· Tab 4, sir, I've got my

15· ·exhibits and tabs confused.· Tab 4 and it is Exhibit

16· ·No. 12-40.· I apologize.

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Tab 4 in Volume 4?

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's right.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Thank you.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then if you turn to the

21· ·page that is numbered -36 down in the right-hand

22· ·corner.

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And what's the page on the

24· ·bottom?· I don't --

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It should say -- it should end

·1· ·in -0036.

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·-0036.· Yes, sir.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, this is -- this is from

·4· ·a file that we got from the Hudson's Bay Company.

·5· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· And if we can just have

·6· ·the page brought down a little bit.· No, other way.

·7· ·Thank you.

·8· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this note, as you can see,

10· ·is right beside a series of emails dated February

11· ·7th of 2008.· So I'm going to ask you if you recall

12· ·when this meeting occurred.· But it says:

13· · · · · · · · · · "Meeting with Bob N.," and

14· · · · · · · · · "Brian E."

15· · · · · · · · · And then it goes through and it says:

16· · · · · · · · · · 1.· Build structure on parking

17· · · · · · · · · deck.· Put roof on parking deck:

18· · · · · · · · · · ·2.· Move Zellers up one

19· · · · · · · · · floor, build new structure."

20· · · · · · · · · And then it says:

21· · · · · · · · · · ·1.· Put another floor, move

22· · · · · · · · · Zellers up and put other

23· · · · · · · · · retailers in Zellers original

24· · · · · · · · · space.· John redoing spec. for

25· · · · · · · · · space.

·1· · · · · · · · · · ·Sales for the past two

·2· · · · · · · · · years."

·3· · · · · · · · · Et cetera.

·4· · · · · · · · · Do you recall them having a meeting

·5· ·with people from Hudson's Bay Company in February of

·6· ·2008 about options?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You do not.

·9· · · · · · · · · If you go to the bottom of the page,

10· ·you can see it says:

11· · · · · · · · · · "Bob" in brackets, and then

12· · · · · · · · · "membrane - will be put in as

13· · · · · · · · · soon as weather permits."

14· · · · · · · · · Did you tell the Hudson's Bay people

15· ·that you were going to put in a membrane in the

16· ·spring of 2008 as soon as the weather allowed you to

17· ·do so?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not directly myself, but I told

19· ·to the manager to convey my idea.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, you told that to the Zellers

21· ·manager, and your purpose of telling them that was

22· ·to --

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To my manager.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, to your manager?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To Henri McCleery, yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·To Ms. McCleery?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was Mr. England still not the

·4· ·manager in the spring of 2008?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. England as well.· Yes, I'm

·6· ·sorry.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·She worked there, but she was

·8· ·not the manager, right, at that time?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·She was contractor to fix the

10· ·roof.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Ms. McCleery was?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, Brian England.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· But Mr. England replaced

14· ·Mr. Turner as manager?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in the spring of 2008, was

17· ·Mr. England manager or was Ms. McCleery manager?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember.· One of those

19· ·two.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In any event, sir, if I could

21· ·have you turn to tab 1 of Volume 4, which is Exhibit

22· ·No. 12-39.

23· · · · · · · · · And this is an e-mail from

24· ·Mr. Cuthbertson, the manager of Zellers, to

25· ·Ms. Taylor on March 25th.· And he writes about

·1· ·a customer complaint about the pails in his store.

·2· ·And he writes in the second line:

·3· · · · · · · · · · "My understanding was the mall

·4· · · · · · · · · was going to install a gutter

·5· · · · · · · · · system to catch the water and

·6· · · · · · · · · redirect it to a drain.· All the

·7· · · · · · · · · mall did was to install a

·8· · · · · · · · · 24-inch gutter wide from Pets

·9· · · · · · · · · department to the cleaning

10· · · · · · · · · department, 48 feet of gutter.

11· · · · · · · · · This was only a small area what

12· · · · · · · · · was leaking.· My understanding

13· · · · · · · · · was that they were installing it

14· · · · · · · · · in footwear and men's wear

15· · · · · · · · · department also and run it to

16· · · · · · · · · a drain.· There is still a lot

17· · · · · · · · · more leaks in the 5 leaks men's

18· · · · · · · · · wear, 2 leaks Footwear, 2 leaks

19· · · · · · · · · pets, 1 leak houseware, 3 leaks

20· · · · · · · · · baby department, 2 leaks

21· · · · · · · · · Jewelry, one leak ladies wear

22· · · · · · · · · and the leak that closes off

23· · · · · · · · · half the mall entrance.· I have

24· · · · · · · · · had associates asking if there

25· · · · · · · · · is mound ..."

·1· · · · · · · · · I assume he meant "mould."

·2· · · · · · · · · · "... in the ceiling and the

·3· · · · · · · · · walls from the water." [As

·4· · · · · · · · · read.]

·5· · · · · · · · · Stop there.· Does that describe

·6· ·accurately, sir, to your knowledge, the conditions

·7· ·in the Zellers at the end of March 2008?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I was not involved at that

·9· ·time.· At that time, manager was working with

10· ·Zellers.· I know that Brian, what he was

11· ·promising -- Mr. Brian England, did not work the way

12· ·he was promising.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you go up to the mall

14· ·between the -- January -- the beginning of January

15· ·and the end of March of 2008?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Definitely.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You did.· How often were you up

18· ·there?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was there almost like every

20· ·second week or at least every third week.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you come up for?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·What?· I always drove.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, why did you go?· Why did you

24· ·come --

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To see the condition of the

·1· ·mall, to see what we can do to remedy the problem

·2· ·and to renovate the mall.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was the condition of

·4· ·the mall in the late winter, early spring of 2008?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·For the period of time that

·6· ·I did not take over this roof, the condition was

·7· ·worse.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·The leaks were worse?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.· But when I took over,

10· ·which we are going to see after Peak Restoration,

11· ·I believed the condition improved.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And we'll get there.

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in this e-mail,

15· ·Mr. Cuthbertson concludes by saying:

16· · · · · · · · · · "The bank next door showed me

17· · · · · · · · · the report that mould was found

18· · · · · · · · · in the wall we share with them

19· · · · · · · · · and above their ceiling.· The

20· · · · · · · · · bank manager is asking the mall

21· · · · · · · · · to inform all tenants about the

22· · · · · · · · · mould problem or she will inform

23· · · · · · · · · them."

24· · · · · · · · · Did you know that the bank was

25· ·threatening to pass on its information about the

·1· ·mould to the other tenant?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If you turn to tab 2, Exhibit

·4· ·No. 3417, this is an e-mail to Mr. Bauthus that you

·5· ·were copied on.· Mr. Bauthus was the CAO of the

·6· ·City.· You and Mr. England were copied on it along

·7· ·with Mr. Sennett, and it's from Ms. Morin on March

·8· ·the 25th, 2008, the same date as the e-mail we just

·9· ·looked at from the Hudson's Bay people.· And

10· ·Ms. Morin writes:

11· · · · · · · · · · "After the meeting on

12· · · · · · · · · Thursday, March 20, 2008,

13· · · · · · · · · Bob Nazarian, Alex Sennett,

14· · · · · · · · · John Clinckett and Brian England

15· · · · · · · · · came to the Library.· They

16· · · · · · · · · agreed to deal with the

17· · · · · · · · · immediate issues of the leaks

18· · · · · · · · · and the following is to be done

19· · · · · · · · · this week."

20· · · · · · · · · Then she lists a set of chores:

21· · · · · · · · · · 1) ceiling tiles will be

22· · · · · · · · · replaced;

23· · · · · · · · · · 2) air scrubbers to be

24· · · · · · · · · installed;

25· · · · · · · · · · 3) more diapers (tarps) to be

·1· · · · · · · · · installed;

·2· · · · · · · · · · 4) electrician to inspect

·3· · · · · · · · · lights before turning them back

·4· · · · · · · · · on;

·5· · · · · · · · · · 5) electrician to disable the

·6· · · · · · · · · lights that are left on after

·7· · · · · · · · · hours and the carpets to be

·8· · · · · · · · · cleaned."

·9· · · · · · · · · You got this e-mail, sir?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And so at this point in time,

12· ·the end of March 2008, all three of your major

13· ·tenants, the Bank of Nova Scotia, Zellers, and the

14· ·library, were complaining about leaks?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 3,

17· ·Exhibit No. 3760.

18· · · · · · · · · This is a memorandum to the Mayor and

19· ·Council from Mr. Bauthus, dated the same day as the

20· ·last two e-mails we've looked at, March 25, 2008.

21· ·The subject is the library.· And Mr. Bauthus wrote:

22· · · · · · · · · · "Further to our meeting on

23· · · · · · · · · March 18, 2008, respecting the

24· · · · · · · · · library, I met with Bob Nazarian

25· · · · · · · · · and Brian England to discuss the

·1· · · · · · · · · current water situation and the

·2· · · · · · · · · proposed lease.

·3· · · · · · · · · · ·Also in attendance at that

·4· · · · · · · · · meeting was Alex Sennett,

·5· · · · · · · · · security consultant for the

·6· · · · · · · · · mall, John Clinckett, architect

·7· · · · · · · · · for the mall, and Sue Morin,

·8· · · · · · · · · Chief Librarian for the

·9· · · · · · · · · library."

10· · · · · · · · · Do you recall that meeting, sir?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who had asked for the meeting,

13· ·your side or the City?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I asked.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why did you ask for the meeting?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Just because we were going to

17· ·respect our promise to do whatever is necessary for

18· ·the library, so that we will be in good standing.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the memorandum from

20· ·Mr. Bauthus states:

21· · · · · · · · · · "Initially we discussed the

22· · · · · · · · · problem with the water and Bob

23· · · · · · · · · informed me that he will be

24· · · · · · · · · undertaking as soon as weather

25· · · · · · · · · permits a complete reconstruct

·1· · · · · · · · · of the parking deck to include

·2· · · · · · · · · the placement of a waterproof

·3· · · · · · · · · membrane and the asphalt on the

·4· · · · · · · · · deck as well as other remedial

·5· · · · · · · · · action in order to reduce the

·6· · · · · · · · · immediate impact of the water on

·7· · · · · · · · · the deck."

·8· · · · · · · · · Did you make that promise, sir?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Had you signed a contract to do

11· ·that at that stage?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember that we signed

13· ·at that time or later on.· I really don't recall.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you know what that was going

15· ·to cost as of March 25th, 2008?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Where were you going to get the

18· ·money?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Well, we were going to ask

20· ·Royal Bank to forward us the $300,000 surplus money

21· ·that they were holding for improvement, and we were

22· ·going to use our means, another way, line of credit

23· ·on my house to put in, and the balance we were

24· ·counting on the income from the mall.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you know -- but you

·1· ·didn't know how much it was going to cost?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I know that it was ballpark,

·3· ·lower than a million dollars.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And where did you get that idea?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Just a rough idea from

·6· ·Mr. Clinckett.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And were you concerned

·8· ·that you'd -- that this promise had been made to the

·9· ·City, when you had not yet made the arrangements to

10· ·bring it about?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I do not agree with that.

12· ·We have thought -- we have decided and so on.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you had not -- you'd not

14· ·entered into any contract with anybody to do the

15· ·work; right?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, Mr. Clinckett was supposed

17· ·to suggest and approve the company.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right, and you hadn't got there

19· ·yet?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure at that time.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you hadn't.· We'll get to

22· ·the documents.

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Okay.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But as at the end of March, you

25· ·had not yet firmed anything up?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I accept your statement, sir.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So did that give you any cause

·3· ·for concern, that you were telling the City you were

·4· ·going to do this and you did not, as yet, have the

·5· ·contracts in place?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were decided to do it,

·7· ·therefore, we were not misleading that under no mean

·8· ·or circumstances.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But in any event, you

10· ·never did do it?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That was different subject.· You

12· ·know that.· I have to explain later on.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·For reasons that we'll get into.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, sir, Mr. Clinckett

16· ·testified that he told you in early April 2008 that

17· ·if you continued to repair the roof in the same way

18· ·that you had -- that had been done in the past, it

19· ·would continue to leak; is that true?· Did he tell

20· ·you that?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It was obvious.· We have

22· ·tried -- by that time, we were exhausted from

23· ·spending money and paying to the labour and trying

24· ·to do any way possible to stop the leak, and the

25· ·leak was persistently coming.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did Mr. Clinckett tell you

·2· ·that?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe so.· I'm not --

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But in any event, you knew that?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, I understand Mr. Clinckett

·7· ·did a tender for the contract; right?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He put out a tender call?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 25, which

12· ·is Exhibit No. 228, this is part of the tender call,

13· ·the project manual which is part of the

14· ·specifications; right?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this is -- Mr. Clinckett

17· ·prepared this?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And ultimately the -- a decision

20· ·was made to award the contract to a company called

21· ·C3 Harrell; right?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if I could take you to

24· ·tab 34, which is Exhibit No. 1066.· And this is

25· ·a set of documents from Mr. Clinckett's files, and

·1· ·if you turn to the page that ends -0064, this is.

·2· · · · · · · · · This is a list of contractors that

·3· ·bid on the project and it set out what their bid was

·4· ·for, the amount, including -- and then the GST

·5· ·amount and the total amount, and there were a number

·6· ·of bidders; right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. -- Mr. -- the company

·9· ·called C3 Harrell is listed at the top of the page,

10· ·and its bid for both the waterproofing and asphalt

11· ·together was $860,000 plus GST for a total of

12· ·$903,000; right?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I would -- I would ...

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's what it says there?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And that's what you remember?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to page -0059 in

19· ·this Exhibit, this is a memorandum to you -- it says

20· ·"To Bob" from Mr. Clinckett and it's dated April the

21· ·20th of 2008.· And Mr. Clinckett is -- says to you:

22· · · · · · · · · · "These are the contracts for

23· · · · · · · · · the work.· You need to sign both

24· · · · · · · · · copies, then call Harry and get

25· · · · · · · · · him to execute both.· You keep

·1· · · · · · · · · one.· He keeps the other."

·2· · · · · · · · · Now, I understand that what he sent

·3· ·you with this was the contracts for the C3 Harrell

·4· ·work; right?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Henry (sic) was the

·7· ·individual from C3 Harrell?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Henry (sic) was the manager in

·9· ·the mall.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, okay.· It says call Henry

11· ·(sic) and get him to execute ---

12· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Harry.· Perhaps it's Harry.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, "Harry."· Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Harry was the fellow from C3?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right, I'm sorry.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So he was saying here are the

18· ·contracts, you sign two, we'll get Harry to sign

19· ·both on behalf of C3 and you'll each get one; right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you sign the contract?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm thankful to My God that

23· ·I did not sign the contract, because after getting

24· ·this information I went and inquired through

25· ·computer to see the weight of the asphalt.· And when

·1· ·I got the information, I said I need a second

·2· ·advice, a second opinion.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this e-mail was sent on

·4· ·April the 20 -- not e-mail, the memo was sent on

·5· ·April the 20th.· Do you recall when -- when you --

·6· ·when you went to the internet and had these

·7· ·concerns?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When was this?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Around that period of time.

11· ·Once this was to be signed, before signing,

12· ·I inquired and I had my doubt about the weight.· So,

13· ·therefore, I thought that I have to inquire more,

14· ·whether this situation is feasible or not.

15· · · · · · · · · If -- I believe with my knowledge,

16· ·I could be wrong, if we were going to do that, we

17· ·could have had a catastrophe on our hand.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If we turn, sir, to tab 17.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·17?

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·17, which is Exhibit No. 1135.

21· ·This is an e-mail in the middle of the page from

22· ·Brian England to Suzanne Morin on April 21st, 2008,

23· ·the day after the memo from Mr. Clinckett to you

24· ·that we just looked at.· And Ms. Morin -- sorry,

25· ·Mr. England writes to Ms. Morin, because she was

·1· ·complaining about some water damage.· He wrote:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "Ray will be right over.· Just

·3· · · · · · · · · a quick update on the roof deck.

·4· · · · · · · · · The tenders are all in and

·5· · · · · · · · · a contractor has been awarded

·6· · · · · · · · · the project.· Site meeting is

·7· · · · · · · · · set for April 28 and 29th.· They

·8· · · · · · · · · will start the project on

·9· · · · · · · · · May 12th."

10· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, was that correct?· Was that

11· ·what you told the gentleman Harry from C3 Harrell?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember what I said to

13· ·Harry, but at that time, I was not concerned about

14· ·the roof yet.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry, what do you mean by

16· ·that?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Umm...

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, you weren't concerned about

19· ·the weight?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So this was -- what Mr. England

22· ·was saying was the plan?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. England testified that

25· ·you did not sign the contract with C3 Harrell

·1· ·because you asked C3 Harrell to put up $250,000 for

·2· ·the materials and the company wouldn't do that.

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This was before we come to the

·4· ·conclusion about the weight of the asphalt.· This

·5· ·was just a conversation that should we sign the

·6· ·contract or we should do more inquiry.· And, plus,

·7· ·I was not comfortable to put $200,000 to a company

·8· ·which we don't know him.

·9· · · · · · · · · I suggested, actually, that maybe we

10· ·should put that money in trust with the lawyer and

11· ·let them start the job which, anyway, we didn't go

12· ·anywhere with that contract.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But is it true that you asked

14· ·C3 Harrell to pay, on its own --

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- 250,000 for the materials?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And, sir, did you think that it

19· ·was reasonable to do that?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That was one of the suggestion,

21· ·either they put the money -- they start the job

22· ·because we are not going anywhere, the building is

23· ·there, they can always put a lien if we don't honour

24· ·our contract, or we put the money on trust account

25· ·and they do the job.· This was --

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How long -- what was the

·2· ·proposal about the money in trust?· When was it

·3· ·going to come out of the trust account?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·When they start and the job is

·5· ·proceeding, that we know that they are serious to do

·6· ·the job.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you put that proposal in

·8· ·writing to them?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And on your first answer, that

11· ·they could always lien the mall to secure their

12· ·payment, they would still be out the quarter of

13· ·a million dollars for their -- for the materials;

14· ·right?· They'd have to pay for the materials out

15· ·front?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·A lien doesn't give them any

18· ·money right away.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, but --

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It takes -- your experience --

21· ·are you experienced with liens?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Somehow.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the way that process works

24· ·is the contractor, if he's not been paid, can put

25· ·a lien on the mall.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But he doesn't get any money --

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- until the action -- the

·5· ·lawsuit comes to trial and is finished; right?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's true.· That's true.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So that would not help them in

·8· ·terms of paying for the materials very quickly;

·9· ·right?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That is matter of discussion, to

11· ·tell you the truth.· But the point is that we were

12· ·not decided yet that was the procedure we were

13· ·supposed to go, or we were supposed to drop the

14· ·whole thing.· So, that's why I start to inquire more

15· ·from other engineers, which we're going to see

16· ·later, I believe.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, Mr. Clinckett testified

18· ·that he was told by Mr. Hakomakio (sic)· -- is that

19· ·the name of the gentleman from C3 Harrell?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·By Mr. Hakomakio (sic)· That

22· ·your demand that he pay up front the quarter of

23· ·a million was the reason why the contract was not

24· ·signed; is that true?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, in a contract -- in

·1· ·a normal contract I have done several times, the

·2· ·contractors mobilize and comes to the work, and show

·3· ·that he's ready, willing, and has the material to

·4· ·start working, and then ask for mobilization money,

·5· ·what they call it.· Later on, we will see that in

·6· ·Peak Restoration we have paid them when they

·7· ·mobilized in the job.

·8· · · · · · · · · In this case, nothing was happened

·9· ·and they want quarter of a million dollars.· We

10· ·don't know whether this company would -- next day,

11· ·they can declare bankruptcy and walk away.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you could have bought the

13· ·material yourself?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, we wouldn't -- we were not

15· ·going to get involved on that.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In any event, is it true that

17· ·that was the reason the contract was not signed?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It was not true?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.· No.· The main reason was

21· ·because we were not sure about the weight of the

22· ·asphalt that they are going to put on top.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, did Mr. Clinckett ever tell

24· ·you that if you did not fix the roof, the building

25· ·would collapse?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. England testified that

·3· ·after the C3 Harrell contract was not signed, there

·4· ·was a meeting at the mall at which you were there

·5· ·and Mr. Clinckett was there and Mr. England was

·6· ·there, and Mr. Clinckett told you that.· Is that

·7· ·true?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I haven't heard that.

·9· · · · · · · · · I was always under the impression

10· ·that the building was in sound condition, but my

11· ·main objective was to try to repair the leak.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, sir, if I could have you

13· ·turn to tab 19, which is Exhibit No. 805.· This is

14· ·a letter from Mr. England to Mr. Clinckett dated

15· ·April 22, 2008.· And he writes:

16· · · · · · · · · · "Dear John: Pulmonary" -- he

17· · · · · · · · · means:

18· · · · · · · · · · "Preliminary report, as per

19· · · · · · · · · our discussion."

20· · · · · · · · · And then he lists a number of items:

21· · · · · · · · · · ·1.· Otis Elevators, $55,000;

22· · · · · · · · · · ·2.· Zellers, $60,000 to

23· · · · · · · · · replace the ceiling tiles and

24· · · · · · · · · the rusted T-bar;

25· · · · · · · · · · ·3.· Hotel lobby, build new

·1· · · · · · · · · lobby on overhead parking,

·2· · · · · · · · · $408,000;

·3· · · · · · · · · · ·4.· Hotel first and second

·4· · · · · · · · · floors, renovate including

·5· · · · · · · · · furniture complete, $359,000;

·6· · · · · · · · · · ·5.· Hotel roof, replace

·7· · · · · · · · · expansion joints, insulate and

·8· · · · · · · · · waterproof, $95,000.

·9· · · · · · · · · · ·6.· Parking deck, refer to

10· · · · · · · · · spec's, $908,000.

11· · · · · · · · · · ·7.· Renovate B5, B6, B7,

12· · · · · · · · · $28,481."

13· · · · · · · · · And then three items, "Consultant

14· ·Fees" on the next page.

15· · · · · · · · · · ·8.· Consultant fees.

16· · · · · · · · · · ·9.· Library, renovate,

17· · · · · · · · · including new lighting, ceiling

18· · · · · · · · · tiles, carpeting and paint."

19· · · · · · · · · And renovate The Bargain Shop, which

20· ·don't have prices.

21· · · · · · · · · Can you tell me what was this about,

22· ·sir?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This was a statement from

24· ·Brian England trying to act as a contractor which,

25· ·in fact, he was not entitled to.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, it's a letter -- it is not

·2· ·a letter to a contract, it is just a letter to your

·3· ·architect?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But what was he talking about?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·They were trying to get some

·7· ·kind of a statement from me that I will be paying so

·8· ·much money for this, this, this reason, which I did

·9· ·not agree.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who is "they"?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Brian England and Mr. John

12· ·Clinckett.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, where did this list of

14· ·items come from?· Whose idea were they?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It is Brian England's.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You had nothing to do with it?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, not at all.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Of them, you had agreed, though,

19· ·to the parking deck item at 908,000; right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, if it's accurate.· I don't

21· ·know.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, that's about the price

23· ·that we just looked at --

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Approximately.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- for the C3 Harrell; right?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you could turn to tab 24,

·3· ·sir, Exhibit No. 3975.· This is an article from The

·4· ·Standard on April 30th, 2008.

·5· · · · · · · · · And there is a photograph of three

·6· ·people on the right-hand side there, sir.· Who are

·7· ·they?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Brian England, John Clinckett

·9· ·and Mr. Hakomaki.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And the article starts by

11· ·saying:

12· · · · · · · · · · "Brian England, manager of the

13· · · · · · · · · Algo Centre Mall says they are

14· · · · · · · · · embarking on a project that he

15· · · · · · · · · expects will put an end to the

16· · · · · · · · · shopping centre's leaky roof

17· · · · · · · · · which has plagued the building

18· · · · · · · · · for many years.· The plan is to

19· · · · · · · · · place a rubberized membrane on

20· · · · · · · · · the 120,000 square-foot roof

21· · · · · · · · · parking, put a protective

22· · · · · · · · · covering on top of it, and then

23· · · · · · · · · apply a three-inch layer of

24· · · · · · · · · asphalt.

25· · · · · · · · · · England made the announcement

·1· · · · · · · · · to a small group on the mall

·2· · · · · · · · · roof parking area Monday

·3· · · · · · · · · afternoon.· He was joined by

·4· · · · · · · · · John Clinckett, a

·5· · · · · · · · · Kitchener-based architect,

·6· · · · · · · · · Harry Hakomaki, president of

·7· · · · · · · · · C3 Harrell, an engineering and

·8· · · · · · · · · contracting firm of Toronto, and

·9· · · · · · · · · Garry Carriere, C3 Harrell

10· · · · · · · · · project manager.

11· · · · · · · · · · Hakomaki says they plan to

12· · · · · · · · · start in a couple of weeks,

13· · · · · · · · · adding the work is expected to

14· · · · · · · · · take up to 60 days to complete."

15· · · · · · · · · And then moving over to the second

16· ·column, it says:

17· · · · · · · · · · England says the structure can

18· · · · · · · · · handle the increased weight.· He

19· · · · · · · · · adds they have two engineering

20· · · · · · · · · reports that state it can

21· · · · · · · · · support the weight."

22· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, did you see this article

23· ·when it came out?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I have seen it.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And as at April 30th, 2008, you

·1· ·did not have a contract with Mr. Hakomaki; right?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were in the discussion, final

·3· ·discussion.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And where it says here that they

·5· ·plan to start in a couple of weeks, was that

·6· ·accurate?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah, if we were going to sign

·8· ·it, they were going to start.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But the article doesn't say that

10· ·you hadn't decided yet; it says you had decided,

11· ·doesn't it?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I can't comment on that.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why can't you comment on that,

14· ·that's what it says?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This is a newspaper.· I did not

16· ·wrote -- I did not say --

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Listen to my question, sir.

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Please.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you agree with me that the

20· ·article says that you've made the decision?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·So is the article says.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was not true;

23· ·right?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It was not true, no.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When you read the article and

·1· ·saw that they had made this statement which was not

·2· ·true, did you -- you tell anyone that it wasn't

·3· ·true?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I told Brian England.· I said,

·5· ·"What are you doing?· What kind of statement you

·6· ·make without my knowledge?· I did not sign the

·7· ·contract yet.· I am in discussion and you are

·8· ·spreading -- spreading the words all over."

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, did you phone up the

10· ·"Standard"?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why not?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The "Standard" -- "Standard" at

14· ·one time, lately, was almost sued by me because he

15· ·was writing false information.· At one time, we

16· ·caught them saying "Dead to the Algo Mall."· But

17· ·later on when my lawyer threatened them that we are

18· ·going to sue you if you continue this line, they

19· ·changed their attitude.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In April of 2008, sir --

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- when the "Standard" published

23· ·this article that said that you had made the

24· ·decision to start work in a couple of weeks to put

25· ·on the membrane and asphalt and that was incorrect,

·1· ·why did you not contact The Standard to say "You

·2· ·need to fix this"?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I got in touch with my manager

·4· ·and that was his responsibility to take care of it.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell him to contact the

·6· ·Standard?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I told him that you are not

·8· ·allowed to make this kind of statement.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell him to contact The

10· ·Standard?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.· I don't

12· ·remember if I told him to.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When this article was published

14· ·in the paper, it had the effect of making the

15· ·tenants and the City and the people in Elliot Lake

16· ·believe that this significant, expensive fix was

17· ·going to be put in place; right?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir --

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, no.· Is that not right?

20· ·That's what the effect of it was?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It was not?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Let me explain, please.· Allow

24· ·me.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm listening.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, we had all the intention to

·2· ·do that job with that contract.· However, it comes

·3· ·a time that we had to have a second opinion and,

·4· ·fortunately, we got that in time, that that system

·5· ·was probably the most dangerous system, regardless

·6· ·of Brian England, what he was saying without proper

·7· ·knowledge.

·8· · · · · · · · · So, I believe that is the time that

·9· ·I took the things in my hand and I went to another

10· ·engineer to get a second opinion and third opinion,

11· ·and they told me clearly that do not attempt to do

12· ·that.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But on April 30th, the people in

14· ·Elliot Lake, including your tenants and the City,

15· ·believed because your manager had said that the work

16· ·was going to start in two weeks; right?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you did nothing to tell them

19· ·that that was not --

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I wouldn't call it "I did

21· ·nothing."

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You did nothing to tell them it

23· ·was not true?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I told my manager that -- to

25· ·take care of this false advertising, and do not make

·1· ·another mistake like this.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In the second column, sir, it

·3· ·says:

·4· · · · · · · · · · "He ..."

·5· · · · · · · · · That's Mr. England.

·6· · · · · · · · · · "... adds they have two

·7· · · · · · · · · engineering reports that state

·8· · · · · · · · · it can support the weight."

·9· · · · · · · · · Was that true?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And when you read the report and

12· ·recognized that that untrue statement was made, what

13· ·steps did you take to let people know what it wasn't

14· ·true?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I just a few minutes ago, I have

16· ·explained that I make a remark to the manager that

17· ·you are not allowed to make a false publication and

18· ·please do not repeat this another time.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·A month before this, sir, you

20· ·had met with the Chief Administrative Officer of the

21· ·City of Elliot Lake and you told him that you would

22· ·be doing this, putting the membranes in and the

23· ·asphalt on?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I was under the impression

25· ·to do that with all means.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why, after this report comes

·2· ·out, which incorrectly says that you are about to do

·3· ·it, why didn't you phone up Mr. Bauthus and say "You

·4· ·need to know this article was not true"?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was not sure until I get

·6· ·another engineer's opinion.· This is a very large

·7· ·contract and we have to make sure that what we are

·8· ·doing is correct and is not going to be a problem

·9· ·later on.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How were you going to pay the

11· ·$908,000?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I just explained a few minutes

13· ·ago, sir, that I was going to use the reserve of

14· ·$300,000 from the RBC, putting additional $300,000

15· ·of lien -- sorry, line of credit on my house, and we

16· ·were hoping that by the time this is finished, we

17· ·can collect additional money from the income from

18· ·the mall.· As you saw, 2008 was not a bad year for

19· ·the income of the mall.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you were prepared to sign the

21· ·contract?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, we were prepared fully to

23· ·sign the contract.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If I could have you turn to

25· ·tab 30, please, sir.· Exhibit No. 802.· This is

·1· ·a letter to you dated May the 8th -- sorry.· Mr.

·2· ·Clinckett's date system drives me crazy.· This is

·3· ·a letter to you dated May 9th, 2008, from

·4· ·Mr. Clinckett.· And he writes and says:

·5· · · · · · · · · · "We are the architectural firm

·6· · · · · · · · · looking after the mall for you,

·7· · · · · · · · · the new owner.· We have met with

·8· · · · · · · · · the Library, food court tenants,

·9· · · · · · · · · and Zellers representatives and

10· · · · · · · · · the major concern is the

11· · · · · · · · · leakage."

12· · · · · · · · · He goes on to say:

13· · · · · · · · · · "We are working on the

14· · · · · · · · · waterproof membrane for the

15· · · · · · · · · parking deck.· Bids received,

16· · · · · · · · · site meeting held April 28th,

17· · · · · · · · · 29th, and we are preparing the

18· · · · · · · · · contract to start the work.

19· · · · · · · · · · ·It is our considered opinion

20· · · · · · · · · that without these problems

21· · · · · · · · · resolved, there is a good chance

22· · · · · · · · · the affected tenants not

23· · · · · · · · · renewing the leases."

24· · · · · · · · · Do you recall getting this letter,

25· ·sir?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you agree with them?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he went on to say:

·5· · · · · · · · · · "Our understanding on this

·6· · · · · · · · · issue was identified in

·7· · · · · · · · · an engineering report

·8· · · · · · · · · commissioned by the previous

·9· · · · · · · · · owner, and prepared by Halsall

10· · · · · · · · · dated May 10, 1999.· We were

11· · · · · · · · · just made aware of it this

12· · · · · · · · · winter while already working on

13· · · · · · · · · the remedy."

14· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, when you got this letter

15· ·from Mr. Clinckett, did you say to him, "Well, what

16· ·does this Halsall Report say"?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.· Unfortunately, we did not

18· ·inquire.· I did not inquire more than that.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. Turner testified that

20· ·he got that report from Mr. Caughill in February of

21· ·2007.

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Which exhibition (sic) is that?

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, this is he testified.· I'm

24· ·telling you what he testified here, when he

25· ·testified.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Okay.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He testified that he got the

·3· ·Halsall Report in February of 2007 from Mr.

·4· ·Bruce Caughill and he sent a copy to you in

·5· ·Richmond Hill.· Is that so?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have never received that.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Fabris testified that at

·8· ·a meeting at his office, the day before you went

·9· ·over to see the mall in July of 2008, after the

10· ·disaster with Mr. Day -- so that date would have

11· ·been --

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Correction, I met Mr. Fabris in

13· ·the mall at that morning.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay, you did not meet him in

15· ·his office?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·In the office as well, but we

17· ·met -- the day that it was a disaster, we were in

18· ·the -- in the mall, both of us.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In any event, Mr. Fabris

20· ·testified that at a meeting in his office on

21· ·July 16th, 2008, at which you were present,

22· ·Mr. Sennett was present, Mr. Day, Mr. England and

23· ·Mr. Fabris, Mr. England said that he had been told

24· ·by Mr. Clinckett that he had this report, which

25· ·talked about the roof.

·1· · · · · · · · · Do you recall Mr. England saying

·2· ·that?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you ask to see the

·5· ·report at that time?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why not?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I wouldn't care less, what

·9· ·report.· What I care is what's the result from here

10· ·on, where are we going?

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, this was a report which,

12· ·on the evidence, talked about the effect of the

13· ·leaks on the mall.· Were you not interested in that?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I never received that report,

15· ·sir.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, I understand that's your

17· ·evidence.· What I'm trying to understand is why you

18· ·did not -- given that you'd been told about it on

19· ·these occasions, why did you not ask to see it?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure whether -- what was

21· ·the discussion at that date or what was on the

22· ·table.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If I could ask you, sir,

24· ·to turn to tab 35, which is Exhibit No. 1387.· And

25· ·if we go to the bottom of the page, this is

·1· ·an e-mail dated May 13th, 2008, from Mr. Mand to

·2· ·Mr. Davison.· Mr. Mand was your lawyer that was

·3· ·dealing with the attempts to refinance the

·4· ·Royal Bank loan; right?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Mand was -- Mr. Alex

·6· ·Sennett's lawyer introduced to us and we were trying

·7· ·to get a financing -- the money that we had in

·8· ·Royal Bank to be released.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he was your lawyer?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He was acting as our lawyer as

11· ·well.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· And so in this e-mail on

13· ·May 13th, 2008, he sent the e-mail to Mr. Davison at

14· ·the Royal Bank copying you, and he writes:

15· · · · · · · · · · "It was a pleasure speaking to

16· · · · · · · · · you yesterday.· I confirm that

17· · · · · · · · · I have been retained by

18· · · · · · · · · Mr. Nazarian, the principal of

19· · · · · · · · · Eastwood Mall, Inc., and that

20· · · · · · · · · our client wishes to refinance

21· · · · · · · · · his property in Elliot Lake for

22· · · · · · · · · the purposes of completing

23· · · · · · · · · renovations integral to the

24· · · · · · · · · future success of the commercial

25· · · · · · · · · mall.· In short, the renovations

·1· · · · · · · · · are so imperative, that if they

·2· · · · · · · · · are not completed the future

·3· · · · · · · · · viability of this commercial

·4· · · · · · · · · venture could be lost.

·5· · · · · · · · · · ·I further confirm that you

·6· · · · · · · · · advised that the mortgage could

·7· · · · · · · · · not be refinanced in the

·8· · · · · · · · · traditional sense because RBC

·9· · · · · · · · · was not the mortgagee; and

10· · · · · · · · · rather another entity through

11· · · · · · · · · Computershare as trustee was the

12· · · · · · · · · mortgagee.· You offered another

13· · · · · · · · · solution and suggested that

14· · · · · · · · · a bond be used to replace the

15· · · · · · · · · revenue stream returned by the

16· · · · · · · · · mortgage to the mortgagee."

17· · · · · · · · · And you saw this e-mail, sir?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe so.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It was copied to you?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you agreed with what

22· ·Mr. Mand wrote?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you go up to the next

25· ·e-mail, Mr. Davison responded to Mr. Mand and copied

·1· ·you on May 13th, and he wrote:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "Mr. Mand, as discussed

·3· · · · · · · · · attached is the defeasance

·4· · · · · · · · · quote."

·5· · · · · · · · · Defeasance was an idea where you

·6· ·would -- the mortgage would get off the title but

·7· ·you'd have to post some bonds.

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So instead of the security for

10· ·the loan being the land, the security would be

11· ·bonds; right?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And it did not -- it freed up

14· ·the land but it didn't free up your capital because

15· ·you had to buy the bond; right?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So it wasn't that helpful?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he goes on to say:

20· · · · · · · · · · "The bonds do not replace the

21· · · · · · · · · revenue stream returned to the

22· · · · · · · · · mortgagee by the mortgage, but

23· · · · · · · · · rather the bonds make the

24· · · · · · · · · mortgage payments rather than

25· · · · · · · · · the mortgage payments being made

·1· · · · · · · · · by the income stream from the

·2· · · · · · · · · property.· The bonds replace the

·3· · · · · · · · · property as security for the

·4· · · · · · · · · mortgage, the property becomes

·5· · · · · · · · · free and clear.· The mortgage

·6· · · · · · · · · remains in force until the

·7· · · · · · · · · maturity date and the bonds make

·8· · · · · · · · · the monthly mortgage payments

·9· · · · · · · · · each month and the balloon

10· · · · · · · · · payment at the maturity date."

11· · · · · · · · · Mr. Mand --

12· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Is that at the

13· ·top?· Oh, that's at the bottom.· Okay, thank you.

14· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Yes, sir.

15· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then in the next e-mail,

17· ·Mr. Mand responds the same day and says:

18· · · · · · · · · · "To clarify, am I correct to

19· · · · · · · · · assume that the total cost to my

20· · · · · · · · · client to refinance this mall

21· · · · · · · · · will be $80,500 or will there be

22· · · · · · · · · additional costs from your

23· · · · · · · · · side?"

24· · · · · · · · · And Mr. Davison responds by saying:

25· · · · · · · · · · "The total cost is $4,693,554

·1· · · · · · · · · being the cost of the securities

·2· · · · · · · · · of $4,613,054 plus the fees of

·3· · · · · · · · · $80,500.· There will be no

·4· · · · · · · · · additional costs."

·5· · · · · · · · · I take it that that was not from your

·6· ·perspective a useful idea?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if we go to the top of the

·9· ·page, sir, we can see on May 23rd, Mr. Davison wrote

10· ·back to Mr. Mand, and said:

11· · · · · · · · · · "Mr. Mand, has Mr. Nazarian

12· · · · · · · · · decided if he will be proceeding

13· · · · · · · · · with the defeasance?· In

14· · · · · · · · · addition, per the attached

15· · · · · · · · · e-mail, we require current

16· · · · · · · · · financial information on the

17· · · · · · · · · property.· As this was due by

18· · · · · · · · · the end of March 2008, this

19· · · · · · · · · constitutes a nonmonetary

20· · · · · · · · · default under the mortgage.· The

21· · · · · · · · · loan cannot be defeased if it is

22· · · · · · · · · in default.· Please have

23· · · · · · · · · Mr. Nazarian provide the

24· · · · · · · · · requested information by May 30,

25· · · · · · · · · 2008."

·1· · · · · · · · · I take it you were told about this as

·2· ·well?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, that was a terrible

·4· ·suggestion that we would never agree with that.

·5· ·They were virtually taking over the mall.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· And if we turn to the

·7· ·next page, we can see what was attached.· And what

·8· ·was attached is an e-mail from Melanie Rajack to

·9· ·Mr. Tavares about the upcoming commercial mortgage

10· ·review.· And what she was asking for -- if we could

11· ·have it brought up on the screen a little bit -- was

12· ·financial information, financial statements for the

13· ·2007 fiscal year, an operating statement for the

14· ·property for the 2007 fiscal year, a current rent

15· ·roll and copies of any new leases.· And this is --

16· ·as she says, part of the annual review.

17· · · · · · · · · This is what you had to do every year

18· ·on this mortgage, right, provide them with your

19· ·financial information; right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. Holford of

22· ·Kleinfeldt Engineers, when did you meet him?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Actually, I met his father from

24· ·Sudbury through the inquiry, and research, I find

25· ·out that this gentlemen has excessive construction

·1· ·and roofing experience.· So I called him and I met

·2· ·with him on the roof.· And when I described the

·3· ·situation, he mentioned his son is a prudent

·4· ·engineer and is going with the Kleinfeldt company,

·5· ·and gave me his name, phone number.· I called right

·6· ·away, and I arranged to meet with him the same day.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. Holford testified that

·8· ·that date was May 26th, 2008.· Is that your

·9· ·recollection?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you tell him?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I tell him that we need

13· ·a solution, that Mr. John Clinckett has suggested

14· ·the membrane and 3 inch of asphalt on top.· I need

15· ·to see whether the weight is sufficient for this

16· ·roof or is excessive, or your opinion is extremely

17· ·important because we are in verge of signing a very

18· ·big contract and I need a second advice.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you tell him -- what did

20· ·you tell him about what you wanted to do about the

21· ·leaks?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I wanted to -- that was original

23· ·discussion, the whole idea was to make sure that the

24· ·leaks are repaired.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you tell him you wanted

·1· ·that repair to be permanent?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, of course.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was that important to you?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, very much.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you mean by

·6· ·permanent?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That mean once forever we would

·8· ·be getting rid of the leaks, and we can get new

·9· ·tenants and a better relation and everything else.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you ask them to do

11· ·in respect of the proposed work by C3 Harrell and

12· ·Mr. Clinckett's work?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I gave him a copy of the

14· ·contract, not signed, and I asked him to be kind

15· ·enough to calculate the weight and give me the --

16· ·his opinion.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, that was on May the

18· ·26th.· And just moving along in the chronology, but

19· ·changing the subject slightly, if you could turn to

20· ·tab 37, which is Exhibit No. 723.

21· · · · · · · · · Now, these are notes --

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Exhibit 37?

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Tab 37, yes.

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Tab 37.· I have different -- oh,

25· ·yes, yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·These are notes made by

·2· ·Mr. William Elliott from ELNOS.

·3· · · · · · · · · You know what ELNOS is, sir?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And these are notes made of

·6· ·a meeting on May the 30th, 2008, at which, as you

·7· ·can see, you and Mr. England were present.· Do you

·8· ·recall that meeting?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was the purpose of the

11· ·meeting?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The purpose of the meeting was

13· ·very, very important, that we were looking

14· ·desperately for a way to get financing to repair the

15· ·roof.· Besides the way that I have mentioned to you,

16· ·we had shortfall.· And I have explained to Mr. --

17· ·Mr. William Elnos (sic), that the mall needs help

18· ·and I need you to stand by us and help us to repair

19· ·this mall since there are lots of people working

20· ·here and this is part of the town, and -- they is

21· ·the largest taxpayer in the town.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were you looking to borrow

23· ·money?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And who was going to borrow the

·1· ·money?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At that time, I think there was

·3· ·no mention of who was going to borrow money.· At

·4· ·that time, I was just asking for some kind of help

·5· ·on this situation, to get involved, that it's beyond

·6· ·our focus to be able to repair that roof unless we

·7· ·inject lots of money.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When you met with him, who did

·9· ·you think was going to borrow the money?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Alex Sennett was a very good

11· ·friend of mine at that time, very charming and so

12· ·on.· I met him in his office, and I'm not sure

13· ·whether it was in his office or Levon's office,

14· ·however, he convinced me that he's able to get money

15· ·either from the Ontario government or another way.

16· ·However, he convinced me to buy a booklet, which was

17· ·about $450, I believe.· I bought it, and in that

18· ·book was stating how we can get grant and what kind

19· ·of grants are available for businesses that they are

20· ·in need of help.

21· · · · · · · · · And that give -- that, I give it to

22· ·him.· And he said "As long as you sign any documents

23· ·I ask you, I'll be able to get financing for you and

24· ·get you out of this misery of the roof leak."

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When -- was this meeting -- was

·1· ·this discussion with Mr. Sennett in the -- buying

·2· ·the book that you've just described, was this before

·3· ·or after the meeting with Mr. Elliott at ELNOS on

·4· ·May the 30th?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I honestly cannot recall.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When you met with Mr. Elliott at

·7· ·ELNOS on May the 30th, were you not planning to have

·8· ·Eastwood borrow the money?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That was the plan?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So --

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- if we could just look and see

17· ·what the notes are here.· Mr. Elliott's written:

18· · · · · · · · · · "Take over Algo Inn as of

19· · · · · · · · · May 1, 2008 (was renting

20· · · · · · · · · prior)."

21· · · · · · · · · And you told him that because that's

22· ·what you were doing; right?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You were taking it over from

25· ·Retirement Living?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then he wrote:

·3· · · · · · · · · · "Roof issue, problem with

·4· · · · · · · · · original installation.· No

·5· · · · · · · · · waterproof membrane."

·6· · · · · · · · · You told him that?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

·9· · · · · · · · · · "Was in 1989 report but not

10· · · · · · · · · disclosed to Nazarian."

11· · · · · · · · · Did you tell him that?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I said that we don't have any

13· ·report previously.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, why did he write "was in

15· ·1989 report"?· Is that not what you told him?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I can't understand what you mean

17· ·by that.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, the Halsall Report was not

19· ·1989, it was 1999.· But as we've seen, Mr. Clinckett

20· ·by May 30th, 2008, had already told you twice about

21· ·the Halsall Report.· And the -- and we've heard

22· ·testimony from Mr. Turner that he had sent you

23· ·a copy of the report.

24· · · · · · · · · So, my question to you, sir, was:

25· ·Was this the Halsall Report that you were referring

·1· ·to when you spoke to Mr. Elliott?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Can you help me out with what

·4· ·you would have been talking about?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember really.· All

·6· ·I will remember is that I have asked for his help to

·7· ·renovate the roof.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you know when you met with

·9· ·him on May 30th, did you know that there was

10· ·an earlier report that had not been disclosed to you

11· ·that showed that there was no waterproofing

12· ·membrane?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you had no explanation for

15· ·why he would have made that note?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I didn't make that note.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You had no explanation for why

18· ·Mr. Elliott would have made that note?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

21· · · · · · · · · · "Pay over 500,000 a year in

22· · · · · · · · · taxes and pay over 300,000

23· · · · · · · · · a year in hydro."

24· · · · · · · · · Was that accurate?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "Restrictive mortgage closed,

·3· · · · · · · · · no 2nd mortgage, penalties,"

·4· · · · · · · · · with an arrow pointing up.

·5· · · · · · · · · That was accurate, right?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Estimated cost, $980,000."

·9· · · · · · · · · That was the estimated cost of the

10· ·C3 Harrell contract; right?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

13· · · · · · · · · · "Over $100,000 spent to try

14· · · · · · · · · and fix."

15· · · · · · · · · Was that accurate?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, more than that.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sorry?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·More than that actually.· Much

19· ·more than that.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And was that the amount that

21· ·you'd spent since you bought the mall?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That amount, if he -- total with

23· ·the labour and material that we spent on top of the

24· ·roof, it was much, much more than that.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you ever add it up?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, never did.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And all the work was done by

·3· ·your own employees?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Our own employees and exterior

·5· ·helper as well.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. England?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

·9· · · · · · · · · · "Risk, Zellers, library, bank,

10· · · · · · · · · Northern, all threatened to

11· · · · · · · · · leave."

12· · · · · · · · · That was accurate, sir?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·(Reading):

15· · · · · · · · · · "More tenants ready for mall.

16· · · · · · · · · Space being engineered,

17· · · · · · · · · revamped."

18· · · · · · · · · Is that right?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who were the new tenants?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, the biggest tenant was

22· ·Mark's Work Warehouse which was interested in the

23· ·location of library.· And we signed a -- they signed

24· ·an LOI, but we couldn't do anything until we see

25· ·what was happening with the library's lease.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When did Mark's Work Warehouse

·2· ·sign a Letter of Intent?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I really don't know.· The dates,

·4· ·I am really bad on.· Please do not count on me to

·5· ·remember all the dates.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

·7· · · · · · · · · · "Bob N., history in

·8· · · · · · · · · manufacturing, then built

·9· · · · · · · · · multi-unit residential, then

10· · · · · · · · · malls plus into construction,

11· · · · · · · · · 11685 Yonge Street."

12· · · · · · · · · That was all correct; right?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

15· · · · · · · · · · "Will be seeing Rick H. and

16· · · · · · · · · Fred B. at 11:30 a.m. today."

17· · · · · · · · · That would be the Mayor and

18· ·Mr. Bauthus; right?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you did meet with them on

21· ·May the 30th?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe I did.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What was that meeting about?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were desperate on getting

25· ·fund or any way to fix the roof permanently.· And

·1· ·I was asking as the largest taxpayer in the town to

·2· ·involve the City and ELNOS, and everybody else if we

·3· ·can, to get the help.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And so what were you asking the

·5· ·City to do?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Exactly.· We wanted -- I was

·7· ·asking the City -- I don't know whether on this date

·8· ·or on another dates, I was asking the City, please,

·9· ·arrange a couple of years of taxes to be forgiven so

10· ·that we can use the fund to remedy the roof repair.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you tell them about how

12· ·bad the roof was?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Well, they knew that.· They knew

14· ·that from long, long time ago.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you tell them?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I tell them if they don't do it,

17· ·we are going to lose all our major tenants.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you really think the City

19· ·could reduce the taxes on one building?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was hoping.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did they tell you they

22· ·simply couldn't do that legally?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not only they didn't reduce it,

24· ·they start to have order after order, which we have

25· ·seen from Fire Department and Building Department,

·1· ·which previously never did, "Do it now or else."

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Those are the orders that you

·3· ·did not comply with; is that right?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.· But did they tell --

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not complied in time, sir.· We

·7· ·have complied with every order that we received, but

·8· ·probably not in time, due to some circumstances.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, both the notice of

10· ·October 2006 and the order of September 2009

11· ·required you to fix the roof so that it did not

12· ·leak; correct?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, yes, that was an unfair

14· ·order, while they knew that these leaks was

15· ·continuing from years before.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Both of those -- both the notice

17· ·and the order of 2006 and 2009 required you to fix

18· ·the roof so it did not leak; correct?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you did not do that?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I could not, sir.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the notice of October of

23· ·2006 required you to hire an engineer to study the

24· ·roof -- sorry, the structure and see whether or not

25· ·there were any problems with it, and you did not do

·1· ·that until October of 2009?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Three months later.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Three years later.· The order

·4· ·was October of 2006.· You didn't hire anybody until

·5· ·October of 2009.

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We have consulted several

·7· ·engineers, sir.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you didn't hire anybody to

·9· ·do that report?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We did not have the mean.· We

11· ·did not have the -- enough resources to compensate.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In any event, I asked you, sir,

13· ·did the people from the City, the Mayor and

14· ·Mr. Bauthus, not tell you when you asked them to

15· ·lower the taxes for a couple of years, did they not

16· ·tell you that the law prevented them from doing

17· ·that?· The City cannot lower taxes on a building,

18· ·period.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was not only asking to reduce

20· ·the taxes.· That was one of the suggestions.· And

21· ·the other suggestion, "Help me to fix this damn

22· ·roof."· Sorry.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did they not tell you they

24· ·could not lower the taxes?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·But they could have ordered

·1· ·the --

·2· · · · · · · · · (Simultaneous speakers - unclear)

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did they tell you that they

·4· ·could not lower the taxes?· It's a simple question.

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember what they did.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You asked them to lower the

·7· ·taxes --

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- but you can't remember

10· ·whether they told you --

11· · · · · · · · · (Simultaneous speakers - unclear)

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·What was the answer, I don't

13· ·remember.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Going on, on these notes.

15· ·Cross -- it says:

16· · · · · · · · · · "Cross collateralization.

17· · · · · · · · · Everything but mortgage."

18· · · · · · · · · Now, by that, did you -- first of

19· ·all, did you say that?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And by that, you meant you could

22· ·not put a mortgage on the land?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

25· · · · · · · · · · "Has some reserves but not

·1· · · · · · · · · $1 million."

·2· · · · · · · · · Is that what you told them?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

·5· · · · · · · · · · "Common" -- sorry.· Could we

·6· · · · · · · · · blow that up, please?

·7· · · · · · · · · · "Commercial mortgage, hard to

·8· · · · · · · · · get in Elliot Lake.· 10 years

·9· · · · · · · · · closed restrictions and 7 years

10· · · · · · · · · remaining."

11· · · · · · · · · That was the kind of mortgage that

12· ·you had; right?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then, "other assets tied up

15· ·in new plazas."· And that's what you told them?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then "RBC mortgage, penalty

18· ·is increasing, not decreasing."

19· · · · · · · · · You told them that?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says:

22· · · · · · · · · · "Contractors and engineers are

23· · · · · · · · · here and are working."

24· · · · · · · · · Did you tell them that?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was that true?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What contractors were working on

·4· ·May the 30th, 2008?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Contractor are here and working.

·6· ·I don't remember, but --

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, sir, you had not hired --

·8· ·you had not signed the contract with C3 Harrell.· So

·9· ·that contract --

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Hold on.· Mr. England was

11· ·a contractor at that time.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I thought he was an employee?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He later became an employee when

14· ·we dismissed Mr. Turner, but he was hired originally

15· ·to repair the roof.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Turner was dismissed in

17· ·2007, sir.· We already looked at that.· He was -- we

18· ·looked at that earlier this morning.· He was -- he

19· ·was suspended and replaced with Mr. England in 2007;

20· ·right?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·If you say so, sir.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then who were the contractors

23· ·that you said were working on the roof on May 30th,

24· ·2008?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember.· Was that

·1· ·Peak Restoration probably?

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No.· Peak Restoration, and we'll

·3· ·get to the evidence, but Peak Restoration did not

·4· ·come into the picture, were not working until the

·5· ·end of June.

·6· · · · · · · · · So is it not the case, sir, that

·7· ·there were contractors working on the roof on

·8· ·May 30th, 2008?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I would not agree with you, sir.

10· ·I'm sure that we had some arrangement.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, who was it?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then it says:

14· · · · · · · · · · "Haven't spoken with C" --

15· · · · · · · · · CEDC?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·WCFD.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What was that?· Do you know what

18· ·that talks about?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then it says:

21· · · · · · · · · · "Could we do 125,000 and

22· · · · · · · · · 125,000 from the CE or CFDC for

23· · · · · · · · · two years?"

24· · · · · · · · · Did you ask them if ELNOS would loan

25· ·Eastwood 125,000 and this other institution, CFDC,

·1· ·loan another 125,000?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I do not remember if we talked

·3· ·about the amount, but I was asking for the help.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then it says at the bottom:

·5· · · · · · · · · · "$450,000 will do the job

·6· · · · · · · · · (delay the rest).· They can get

·7· · · · · · · · · 200,000."

·8· · · · · · · · · Sir, that suggests that you told

·9· ·Mr. Elliott that if you got $450,000, of which you

10· ·borrowed 250,000, you could put up 200 yourself and

11· ·that would start the job, delaying the rest of the

12· ·money?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Possible.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell him that?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I didn't -- I don't remember the

16· ·exact amount, but I asked him for the help.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me how -- how, if

18· ·it was going to cost $980,000, how would borrowing

19· ·half that or less than half that, 450, or borrowing

20· ·250 and putting up 200, how would 450 do the job?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I think I have explained

22· ·that.

23· · · · · · · · · We were using $300,000 RBC surplus,

24· ·as security, and we were going to get another

25· ·$300,000 line of credit in our house, so we had

·1· ·shortage of few hundred thousand dollars.· And

·2· ·that's what we were asking for.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I understand Mr. Elliott

·4· ·is going to testify and say that what you proposed

·5· ·was you told him if you -- if I can borrow 250,

·6· ·I can put up 200, and 450 will be enough because

·7· ·with that amount of money the contractors will get

·8· ·started and we'll deal with the rest later.

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell him that?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But how would that --

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Isn't that the same thing, sir?

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, it's not the same thing

15· ·because -- because from what I understand

16· ·Mr. Elliott is going to testify, you told him that

17· ·you didn't care whether you got the other 450 as

18· ·long as there was enough money to get the workers

19· ·started.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, as long as it was started

21· ·and later on, we were going to go after the RBC for

22· ·our excessive.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And, of course, you had not been

24· ·told by the RBC that you were going to get that --

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's why I'm saying, it would

·1· ·be started until we negotiate with RBC.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But then what was the plan for

·3· ·once the money ran out?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Then we would -- the RBC money

·5· ·should have -- RBC money was our money.· It was not

·6· ·a loan.· It was not belong to RBC.· They were

·7· ·holding simply for this reason.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But they had to agree?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·They had to agree.· And if they

10· ·don't agree, then we had to take a lawsuit or

11· ·something, because it's our money.· We need it for

12· ·this emergency case for it.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And was that your plan?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, it was our plan.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. Elliott, I understand,

16· ·will say that he told you that no funds would be

17· ·forthcoming without a fully developed business plan.

18· · · · · · · · · Did he tell you that?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember if I heard that

20· ·sentence, but it's not surprising if they demand

21· ·that.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if we took a look -- if you

23· ·took up Volume 6.

24· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Mr. Bernard, if I could

25· ·impose on you to get that volume for the witness.

·1· ·It is Exhibit No. 5413, tab 38.· No, I don't think

·2· ·this is right.· Sorry.· Hold on.

·3· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· From Elliot to

·4· ·Fabris?

·5· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Sorry?

·6· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· It's from Elliot

·7· ·to Fabris?

·8· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Yeah, just let me look at

·9· ·this.

10· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sir, can we have

11· ·a break, please?

12· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· You want a short

13· ·break, Mr. Nazarian?

14· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Certainly.

15· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Five minutes

16· ·enough?

17· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sure.

18· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Is that okay?

19· ·Let's take five.

20· · · · · · · · · --- RECESS AT 12:12 P.M.

21· · · · · · · · · --- RESUMED AT 12:22 P.M.

22· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Nazarian, I told you tab 38.

24· ·But, in fact, it's at tab 40.

25· · · · · · · · · So, if you could turn to tab 40 in

·1· ·Volume 6, and we have the right document on the

·2· ·screen.· It is Exhibit No. 5413.

·3· · · · · · · · · This is a letter which Mr. Elliott

·4· ·wrote to Mr. Fabris on September the 10th, 2008.

·5· ·And we will come back to you -- or come back to it

·6· ·in a little while.· But in the letter, he says this

·7· ·about the May 30th meeting.· He said:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "On May 30, 2008, the ELNOS

·9· · · · · · · · · chair, Steve van Duin and I met

10· · · · · · · · · with representatives of

11· · · · · · · · · Eastwood Mall: Mr. Bob Nazarian,

12· · · · · · · · · and the then mall manager (Brian

13· · · · · · · · · England).

14· · · · · · · · · · At this meeting, it was made

15· · · · · · · · · explicitly clear that no funding

16· · · · · · · · · would be forthcoming unless it

17· · · · · · · · · was supported by a fully

18· · · · · · · · · developed business plan.· This

19· · · · · · · · · plan was to include

20· · · · · · · · · an engineer's report that the

21· · · · · · · · · planned repairs would indeed

22· · · · · · · · · solve the on-going water

23· · · · · · · · · intrusion problems, and

24· · · · · · · · · a forecast of revenue streams,

25· · · · · · · · · including existing and proposed

·1· · · · · · · · · tenants.· We also requested that

·2· · · · · · · · · the status of the contract with

·3· · · · · · · · · the public library be updated as

·4· · · · · · · · · part of this plan."

·5· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, did Mr. Elliott tell you

·6· ·that, that no funding would be forthcoming unless it

·7· ·was supported by a fully developed business plan,

·8· ·including an engineer's report that the planned

·9· ·repairs would solve the ongoing water intrusion

10· ·problems?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It's -- I haven't seen this

12· ·report, but it is very reasonable that he would ask

13· ·that, sure.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you recall him asking you

15· ·that?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you are not prepared to

18· ·testify that he did not ask you that?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, at the meeting of May 30th,

21· ·2008, you did not have a signed contract with

22· ·C3 Harrell; right?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were still in debate whether

24· ·it's possible or not.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· You had asked

·1· ·Mr. Holford to give you some advice.

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That was four days before?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Expert advice, yes.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So he had not given you the

·6· ·advice yet?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think he didn't take long.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But I think -- I think the

·9· ·evidence will be -- the evidence has been that he

10· ·was there on the 30th of May.

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, we were on top of the roof.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But not -- when you had the

13· ·meeting, you had not had his advice yet?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not yet.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you had not decided what to

16· ·do?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were inquiring.· We were

18· ·working on the final situation of whether we can do

19· ·it or not.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· And so since you hadn't

21· ·decided what to do, was it not wrong to tell

22· ·Mr. Elliott that you were working on the job

23· ·already?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I never said that we are working

25· ·on the job already.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, his notes say that you

·2· ·said workers were on the roof, contractors were on

·3· ·the roof?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have never said -- we said we

·5· ·are in the process of working on the roof the

·6· ·old-fashioned way of caulking and so on.· But I have

·7· ·never stated that we have hired a company and I have

·8· ·never told her -- told him that we have started

·9· ·working on the roof.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How was -- after you left the

11· ·meeting, what was the situation, as you understood

12· ·it, with your request for a loan from ELNOS?· What

13· ·was the status of that?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was a very big hope that we

15· ·are going to try to satisfy them to give us a loan

16· ·since the ELNOS is built to save the companies like

17· ·that, if they are trouble, to save the worker and to

18· ·save the business in the town.· So I had a very big

19· ·hope that we are going to come into the term that

20· ·one way or the other, to get help from them to

21· ·permanently repair the roof.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But did you think you still had

23· ·work to do before you could get a loan?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you do to do that?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This was just preliminary

·2· ·meeting to see there is a possibility or not.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What steps did you take to do

·4· ·that work, to get the loan?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We got involved with this

·6· ·Empire roof situation, which I thought I better --

·7· ·I made a terrible mistake by going into that

·8· ·situation with Mr. Sennett's suggestion and it took

·9· ·too much of time.· And then when we got the advice

10· ·from Mr. Fabris of, this is the situation, it looks

11· ·not arm's length, and he suggested drop immediately,

12· ·that's not proper way to go.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And that advice was in

14· ·September; right?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, something like that.

16· ·I don't remember the date exactly.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay, and we'll come back to

18· ·that.

19· · · · · · · · · Now, if I could move on to

20· ·a different topic.· Mr. Holford, he was there on May

21· ·30th and you met him; right?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did he ask you for all

24· ·reports that you had about the mall and the roof?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I didn't have any report at that

·1· ·time.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did he ask you for them?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He asked for the drawings of the

·4· ·mall.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did he ask you for all prior

·6· ·reports?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·If he asked, we didn't have it

·8· ·anyway.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm asking you whether he asked.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He testified that he did.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Probably.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Can you testify that he did not?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm saying I do not remember

15· ·that, please.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me, sir, why did

17· ·you not give him the Halsall Report that you had

18· ·been told about by Mr. Clinckett in writing twice?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm -- sir, I'm surprised you're

20· ·asking me the same question for a third time.· I did

21· ·not have any kind of previous engineering report in

22· ·my hand.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But we do know that

24· ·Mr. Clinckett told you about it.· And my question to

25· ·you is: If Mr. Holford asked you for the reports,

·1· ·why did you not give them to him?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, you're insisting again.

·3· ·I did not have Halsall Report in my hand at that

·4· ·time.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you give him the reports you

·6· ·had from Mr. Clinckett?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe so, yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Including the structural report?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did Mr. Holford do a walk

11· ·around the mall with you on May 31st together with

12· ·a contractor he brought up with him, a fellow by the

13· ·name of Tony Chrisostimo (phon.)?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, not at that first meeting.

15· ·We met together at the same day that I met Mr.

16· ·Holford's father.· And I called him and we met the

17· ·same night on top of the roof and I explained

18· ·everything.· After that, I left him to inquire with

19· ·our manager.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, Mr. Holford's evidence,

21· ·just so that you understand what he testified to, he

22· ·said on May 26th, you called him.

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You met with him in Toronto or

25· ·Richmond Hill that night.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·In my house, yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In your house, that's right.

·3· ·And that was the 26th of May.· And that he said he

·4· ·then drove down to -- or drove up to Elliot Lake on

·5· ·either the 30th --

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We drove together.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- or the 31st of May.

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was with him.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·On the trip up?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay, because he said he came up

12· ·with this fellow Tony Christostimo (phon.)

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, we were three people.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Three people in the car.· Okay.

15· ·And when the three of you got here, you took a trip

16· ·around the mall?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, possibly, yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did Mr. Holford say anything

19· ·to you about the repairs that had been done before

20· ·he got there based on what he saw when he looked at

21· ·it?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The only thing that I had

23· ·mentioned to him which I knew it was the

24· ·conventional way of caulking, removal of the old

25· ·caulking and putting new caulking.· And that's all

·1· ·what I have done.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right, but did he say anything

·3· ·to you about the quality of the repair work that had

·4· ·been done to date?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I didn't have any information

·6· ·previously.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, sorry, I'm not communicating

·8· ·well.

·9· · · · · · · · · You took a walk around the mall with

10· ·Mr. Holford; right?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And when you did that, he looked

13· ·at the roof; right?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he looked at the repairs

16· ·that had been done before; right?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did he say anything to you about

19· ·the quality of the repair work?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I don't remember.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay, because he says that he

22· ·told you that there were problems and the problems

23· ·included that the people who had done the work

24· ·before had not removed all of the bad caulking

25· ·before they re-caulked but instead did a quick

·1· ·repair.· Do you recall him telling you that?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Possible.· I don't remember

·3· ·exactly what did we say.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He also testified that he saw

·5· ·buckets, stained ceiling tiles, and tarps inside the

·6· ·mall.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not surprised.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· Did Mr. Holford provide

·9· ·you with a quote for a contract to put in place

10· ·a waterproofing membrane system?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Because he testified that he did

13· ·and you rejected it as being too expensive.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir, that

15· ·I received any kind of quotation from Holford.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I wonder if we could take --

17· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· If could you have

18· ·Volume 5.· I'm sorry, Mr. Bernard.

19· · · · · · · · · THE CLERK:· Did you want me to take

20· ·some of these away?

21· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Yes.· You will need to

22· ·leave 6 there, but the rest I think can be taken

23· ·away.

24· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Tab 88 --

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·6, I will keep.· And the rest I

·2· ·am going to give it to you.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, you'll need to leave 4

·4· ·there, as well.· Sorry.

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's four.· Four as well?

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.· And it's Exhibit No. 1591.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry.· Tab number?

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·88.

·9· · · · · · · · · Now this, sir, is an e-mail which

10· ·Mr. Holford sent to his partner, Mr. Blaney on

11· ·August the 19th when there was some difficulties

12· ·with the work he'd been doing with you.· And so you

13· ·did not see this, but I'm just going to read you

14· ·something from it to see if it refreshes your

15· ·memory.

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I have seen this before.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, you have seen it?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When did you see it?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·In this testimony when you

21· ·brought out with Levon, my son.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But at the time, you

23· ·didn't see it?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if we go down to the

·1· ·fifth -- one, two, three -- sixth bullet point,

·2· ·Mr. Holford wrote:

·3· · · · · · · · · · "We discussed with and

·4· · · · · · · · · answered questions from the

·5· · · · · · · · · contractor who attended the site

·6· · · · · · · · · and got a quote to complete the

·7· · · · · · · · · work.· It was received by us

·8· · · · · · · · · June 4th, 2008, and forwarded to

·9· · · · · · · · · Bob very shortly there after.

10· · · · · · · · · We looked at various rubber

11· · · · · · · · · systems and discussed them with

12· · · · · · · · · the manufacturers.· This quote

13· · · · · · · · · was rejected by Bob."

14· · · · · · · · · Does that help you remember?· Do you

15· ·remember this?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I don't remember.

17· ·I remember only when you were discussing with my

18· ·son.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, going back to Volume 4 --

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, correction, before we go

21· ·over.· This statement was mentioning something like

22· ·$17 million.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, so you do remember it?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah, when you were discussing

25· ·with my son.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I think if you go down, the

·2· ·17 million, go down the page, sir, to the 5th bullet

·3· ·from the bottom.

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sorry, the sixth bullet from the

·6· ·bottom.· It says:

·7· · · · · · · · · · "Bob asked us to look into

·8· · · · · · · · · a tent structure and gave

·9· · · · · · · · · Sherway Gardens as an example."

10· · · · · · · · · And then it says in the last bullet:

11· · · · · · · · · · "We ... had several phone

12· · · · · · · · · conversations with the company,

13· · · · · · · · · BirdAir of Buffalo, NY, and

14· · · · · · · · · worked on a budget for a system

15· · · · · · · · · for Algo Mall.· The cost came in

16· · · · · · · · · at around $17 million.· Bob was

17· · · · · · · · · called June 13, 2008 and

18· · · · · · · · · informed of the costs.· Bob

19· · · · · · · · · rejected this option."

20· · · · · · · · · Do you remember that?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But you don't remember

23· ·the quote about the membrane that was received,

24· ·Mr. Holford says was received on June 4th, you don't

25· ·recall?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, no.· So I drove myself to

·2· ·Sherway Gardens, myself personally, to see what it

·3· ·looked like, a balloon covering the parking lot.

·4· ·And it was beautiful.· I went to the management

·5· ·office, and when I explained to him where we are and

·6· ·what we are doing, they mentioned that you have to

·7· ·sell your mall to do it.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It was one of these rubberized

·9· ·tents that was held up with air blowing into it?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, it was much more than that.

11· ·Much more sophisticated.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, okay.

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It was double membrane that

14· ·there was air circulating inside.· In fact, it was

15· ·cooling and heating in winter.· So it was impossible

16· ·for us.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if we could go back to

18· ·Volume 4, sir, in tab 40.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Volume 4.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Exhibit No. 1341.

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·40.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·This is a letter June 10th,

23· ·2008, from Mr. Fabris to Mr. Clinckett, and he asks

24· ·Mr. Clinckett to provide a letter with respect to

25· ·the ability of the roof to withstand the added

·1· ·weight of both the membrane and the additional

·2· ·asphalt.

·3· · · · · · · · · Did you ask Mr. Fabris to send this

·4· ·letter?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was the reason for the

·7· ·request?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·As a builder, developer, I have

·9· ·some knowledge about the roof, about the building.

10· ·So I was not sure whether that system would handle

11· ·in our roof structure, so I have asked Mr. Fabris to

12· ·send a letter.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If I could ask you to

14· ·turn back to tab 39, sir, Exhibit No. 744.· This is

15· ·an article from a journal called "The Northern

16· ·Business Journal."· And there is a photograph on the

17· ·top which is a photograph of you, Mr. Sennett, and

18· ·Mr. England; right?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the article talks about the

21· ·work you were going to do on the mall.· And if you

22· ·go to the second column in the middle, pull it up

23· ·a bit.· Thank you.· It says:

24· · · · · · · · · · "The mall's roof has had

25· · · · · · · · · a leaking problem ... but

·1· · · · · · · · · Eastwood is addressing that

·2· · · · · · · · · problem and spending close to

·3· · · · · · · · · $1 million to repair it.

·4· · · · · · · · · · The plan is to place

·5· · · · · · · · · a rubberized membrane on the

·6· · · · · · · · · 120,000 square foot roof parking

·7· · · · · · · · · area, put a protective covering

·8· · · · · · · · · on top of it and then apply

·9· · · · · · · · · a three-inch layer of asphalt."

10· · · · · · · · · Did you tell the journalists from

11· ·"The Northern Business Journal" that?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir, they got this

13· ·information probably from Mr. England or Mr. Clink

14· ·-- or Mr. Clinckett or Mr. Sennett.· I am not sure

15· ·who they got this information from.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, they did interview you,

17· ·sir, because if you go over to the left-hand column,

18· ·they quote you, unless they completely made it up.

19· ·They do quote you, about three-quarters of the way

20· ·down the left-hand column, they say:

21· · · · · · · · · · "Other changes are in the

22· · · · · · · · · works, according to

23· · · · · · · · · Bob Nazarian, CEO of

24· · · · · · · · · Eastwood Mall.· 'We are in this

25· · · · · · · · · City and we have to give back to

·1· · · · · · · · · it,' he said."

·2· · · · · · · · · And it then says that you talked

·3· ·about plans to create a youth drop-in centre in the

·4· ·mall, to add a gated area that can be a playground

·5· ·off the parking area, a soup kitchen.· And he quotes

·6· ·you as saying that you want to improve the shopping

·7· ·experience and improve the community.

·8· · · · · · · · · So, you were interviewed for this

·9· ·article?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, those are correct

11· ·information I have given to them and we had

12· ·intention to do it.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But the -- and you did not do

14· ·it?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, we have even talked to the

16· ·Mayor to give a close to 3,000 square foot area free

17· ·of charge devoted to the youth of Elliot Lake

18· ·because I could see that the youth in Elliot Lake,

19· ·they have really no -- any entertainment centre.

20· ·And I wanted to take some kind of centre, so that

21· ·the youth, they could come there and play chess or

22· ·any other activity, but then I put a condition that

23· ·I would not ask for any rent, I would not ask for

24· ·any kind of payment, but the City has to put

25· ·somebody to make sure that it's not going to be

·1· ·abused, the location.· And me and my wife, we were

·2· ·decided to put a centre to give people free of cost,

·3· ·soup centre or food, at least two or three time per

·4· ·week.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But that never happened either?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It never happened, no, because

·7· ·the roof was draining us with the cost and the

·8· ·problem.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But going back to what I read to

10· ·you first, sir, the two paragraphs that talked about

11· ·the leaking problem and the plan to put a membrane

12· ·on it, you did not tell the journalist that; is that

13· ·right?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure whether this was

15· ·before getting Mr. Holford's report or after.· I'm

16· ·not sure on that.

17· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· What's the date on

18· ·the article?

19· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· It says June 2008, sir.

20· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you know when in June it came

22· ·out?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I really don't know.· I'm very

24· ·bad on remembering the dates and so on.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But can we agree, based on the

·1· ·evidence you've already given me, in June 2008 you

·2· ·did not have a contract to put the membrane on?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah, but we were discussing

·4· ·seriously to start working on top of the roof.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But, again, the article does not

·6· ·say you were discussing it.· The article says you

·7· ·are -- have decided to do it; right?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were decided to do it, but we

·9· ·were asking for second opinion, sir.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you were also seeking

11· ·funding?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, that's right.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Which had not come through?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We didn't know at that time if

15· ·it is going to come through or not.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Were you -- were you confident

17· ·that you were going to do this when you were

18· ·interviewed?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, we were confident to do it

20· ·because, as I said, we had the fund, approximate, to

21· ·start to almost finish by injecting money from our

22· ·line of credit of my house, getting the fund from

23· ·the Royal Bank, and getting some kind of income from

24· ·the mall.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If I could ask you, sir,

·1· ·to turn --

·2· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Perhaps,

·3· ·Mr. Doody, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that's

·4· ·nearly quarter to.· So we'll move on to lunch and

·5· ·start again at 2:00 o'clock.

·6· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Thank you.

·7· · · · · · · · · --- LUNCHEON RECESS TAKEN 12:43 P.M.

·8· · · · · · · · · --- RESUMED AT 2:00 P.M.

·9· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Good afternoon.

10· · · · · · · · · Mr. Doody.

11· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Thank you,

12· ·Mr. Commissioner.

13· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Nazarian, I wonder if you

15· ·could take up volume 4, turn to tab 32, which is

16· ·Exhibit No. 748.· This is a document which says it

17· ·is a stipulated price contract and it is in

18· ·a Standard Construction -- Canadian Construction

19· ·Documents Committee form.

20· · · · · · · · · Have you ever seen that document

21· ·before, sir?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this contract says it is

24· ·between -- first of all, on the cover it says it is

25· ·for "A fluid applied waterproofing & asphalt cover

·1· ·for the parking deck of the Algo Centre Mall".

·2· · · · · · · · · And if you turn over to the fourth

·3· ·page, the page that ends -03, the contract is said

·4· ·to be between Eastwood Mall Inc. and the Empire

·5· ·Roofing and Restoration Inc. and the work is to

·6· ·perform the work required by the contract documents

·7· ·for fluid applied waterproof membrane and asphalt

·8· ·cover.

·9· · · · · · · · · And if you go to the page that ends

10· ·-06, sir, you will see that the space for the

11· ·contract price is left blank.

12· · · · · · · · · Finally, if you turn to the page that

13· ·ends -009, there are signatures there.

14· · · · · · · · · Is that your signature, sir?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It is my signature as well, yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this is dated June 16th,

17· ·2008?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you sign it on June 16th,

20· ·2008?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right, that's my

22· ·handwriting.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And below that, is that

24· ·Mr. Sennett's signature?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were you present when he

·2· ·signed it?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he is signing on behalf of

·5· ·the Empire Roofing and Restoration Inc. and then

·6· ·there is a witness.

·7· · · · · · · · · Do you know who the witness was, sir?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now what's this all about, sir?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have to give a little bit of

11· ·an explanation in order to be clear.

12· · · · · · · · · I mentioned before, I did most

13· ·terrible mistake by listening to my friend which was

14· ·very charming and very close to us.· He so often

15· ·used to come to our place and have dinner with us,

16· ·and so on and so forth.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who was this?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Alex Sennett.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Very knowledgeable.· He was

21· ·an IT person.· We were having a slip and fall

22· ·problem with an elderly residents so we have asked

23· ·to put cameras because, to see why they are felling

24· ·(sic) and what's happening and so he did a good job

25· ·on that.

·1· · · · · · · · · However, we became so close that he

·2· ·knew that we desperately need financing in order to

·3· ·permanently fix the roof.· On discussion he clearly

·4· ·told us that he's able and willing to find financing

·5· ·for us if we permit him and we do whatever he says.

·6· · · · · · · · · And for that reason he asked me to

·7· ·buy a book, which is showing where are the

·8· ·governmental funds that we can apply and including

·9· ·the applications and so on, so we have bought that

10· ·book and we gave it to him and he start working to

11· ·find mortgage.

12· · · · · · · · · He asked me even to sign a couple of

13· ·pages which I agree because I was hoping that he

14· ·would be able to do the job, especially that he's

15· ·very knowledgeable and his education is very high.

16· ·Later on I realize that "Hey, maybe I'm making

17· ·a mistake.· Maybe this company is non arm leg (sic)

18· ·and so on, so I went to Mr. Fabris and I asked him

19· ·about the situation and all the detail.· At that

20· ·time Mr. Fabris was nice enough to suggest me "Bob,

21· ·drop it right now.· I don't like it.· He doesn't

22· ·look legitimate."

23· · · · · · · · · And we didn't do anything else

24· ·afterwards.· There were some quotation -- sorry,

25· ·I have to explain that I have introduced my son,

·1· ·Levon, which previously you have seen testifying, to

·2· ·Alex Sennett which my son was newly graduate and

·3· ·didn't have experience and since Mr. Sennett has

·4· ·very high education, I said probably he can work for

·5· ·you, and get your order to get this financing.· And

·6· ·I understand that Mr. Sennett has created some kind

·7· ·of orders to Levon and make some correction to make

·8· ·some quotation for this company, which I was not

·9· ·comfortable right from the beginning.· However, once

10· ·I find out that I am going nowhere, I ask the advice

11· ·and I dropped it.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So let's start this sir, at the

13· ·beginning.· When did Mr. Sennett first speak to you

14· ·about this?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were in Levon's office.

16· ·Levon just got an office.· We had a few meetings.

17· ·We had meetings on Mr. Sennett's office, in Markham

18· ·area, and we discussed that no matter what door we

19· ·knock, we are not getting the financing, including

20· ·Royal Bank which is holding our funds.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, I asked you when he first

22· ·spoke to you about it.· Then you told me where you

23· ·spoke to him.· I'd like to know when you first spoke

24· ·to him about it.

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, with all respect, I am not

·1· ·good on dates.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Just tell me that.· If

·3· ·I ask you a question, when --

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- tell me you don't know when.

·6· ·Then I'll see if I can help, okay?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right, I am sorry.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you don't know when?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You have before you, sir,

11· ·this document which was signed on June 16th, 2008

12· ·and you testified just a minute ago that that date

13· ·is correct; right?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, this document was signed on

16· ·June 16th.· How long before this document was signed

17· ·did you first speak to Mr. Sennett about this?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember perfectly.· I'm

19· ·sorry, I ...

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was it a month?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, less than that, maybe

22· ·a couple of weeks, yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Maybe a couple of weeks?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, some time around the end of

·1· ·May or so?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who brought the subject up

·4· ·first, him or you, the idea of creating this

·5· ·company?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Sennett.· Since he see that

·7· ·we are in hardship, as a good friend, he brought

·8· ·this gesture, that maybe he can help us by creating

·9· ·a new company and work very hard with Levon to try

10· ·to get us the fund that we need.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was the purpose of

12· ·creating the new company?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To get a mortgage.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·On what?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To get a new mortgage for

16· ·Eastwood, since Eastwood had a mortgage -- sorry,

17· ·Eastwood Mall Inc., when I say is the mother company

18· ·and had a mortgage which was tying our hands from

19· ·the bank.

20· · · · · · · · · We could not get a second mortgage.

21· ·We could not paying off without a hefty penalty and

22· ·we were virtually desperate to get funds to inject

23· ·in the mall.· We discussed so often about that, so

24· ·he came to rescue us by saying that he probably can

25· ·get funds for us through another company.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You said that he proposed

·2· ·getting a mortgage for Eastwood.· Did you mean

·3· ·a mortgage, that is a --

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mortgage, yes.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So what was Eastwood going to

·6· ·mortgage?· What was Eastwood going to mortgage?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Maybe we were talking about

·8· ·ELNOS, which is a separate body to help the industry

·9· ·to survive.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, just a sec, just so we're

11· ·clear because I don't want there to be any

12· ·misunderstanding.

13· · · · · · · · · A mortgage is a legal document

14· ·whereby somebody who owns land gives to somebody who

15· ·lends them money, the right to use the land as

16· ·security; right?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's what a mortgage is;

19· ·right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·When I say "mortgage" maybe

21· ·I mean "fund".

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you say "maybe."· What do

23· ·you mean, sir, it was your word?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I blindfully (sic)

25· ·I trusted my friend Mr. Sennett.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm just trying to understand

·2· ·what he said he was going to do.· Did he say he was

·3· ·going to help Eastwood get a mortgage?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Or did he say something else?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We were talking about shortage

·7· ·of money.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And he said, "Maybe I can help

10· ·you on that."

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And therefore, I said "Anything

13· ·that I can do as long as we get the fund to inject

14· ·on that roof, by all means."· So, I blindfully

15· ·trusted him.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what I'm interested in

17· ·understanding from you, sir, is what did he -- what

18· ·was his idea?· What did he say he was going to do?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think we were talking about

20· ·ELNOS.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What about ELNOS?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·ELNOS is a governmental body, if

23· ·I'm not mistaking, who is there to help troubled

24· ·building, troubled properties or industry or

25· ·businesses.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In fact, you'd been there on

·2· ·May 30th?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To revive.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You'd been there on May 30th?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·At ELNOS?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So what was it about ELNOS that

11· ·he was proposing to do with this Empire Roofing and

12· ·Restoration?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He was trying to get some money.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did you understand it was

15· ·going to work?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I didn't think.

17· ·As I said, I made a terrible mistake by going into

18· ·that trap.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, you've told me a number of

20· ·times you made a mistake and I'm just trying to

21· ·understand what you understood was being proposed.

22· ·So, with respect, you've told us you made a mistake

23· ·but now I need to have certain specific questions

24· ·answered; all right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Please.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did you understand it was

·2· ·going to work?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I didn't know enough about

·4· ·ELNOS, how does it work.· I knew that we had to

·5· ·prepare all kinds of documents and satisfy the ELNOS

·6· ·in order to try to get a loan -- loan from them, not

·7· ·mortgage but loan.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who was ELNOS going to

·9· ·loan the money to?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To Eastwood.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·To Eastwood?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Eastwood Mall Inc.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So Eastwood was going to borrow

14· ·the money --

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- to use on the roof.

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was Empire's role in

19· ·this going to be?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That was Mr. Sennett's idea

21· ·which I didn't know myself how it's going to work

22· ·but since he was educate -- his education was much

23· ·higher than mine, I had to follow his orders.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But did he tell you how he

25· ·thought it was going to work?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We didn't go so much into the

·2· ·detail, since we knew that that's a governmental

·3· ·body that is -- their goal is to help businesses.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But I asked you, sir: Did he

·5· ·tell you how he thought it was going to work?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, he did not.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this contract that we've got

·8· ·before us, which is Exhibit No. 748, who prepared

·9· ·it?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Sennett has established his

11· ·company and I think most of these documents is

12· ·standard, if I'm not mistaking.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·There are certain things that

14· ·are typewritten like the title on the front page and

15· ·the parties on the second -- third page where it

16· ·sets out who the parties are.· And on the page that

17· ·ends in -04 there is some typewriting which refers

18· ·to specifications and drawings.· So, sir, who made

19· ·the additions?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The whole thing was made by

21· ·Mr. Sennett.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you go to the very last

23· ·page, the page that ends -038, there is a drawing

24· ·there of the roof and the parking deck; right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And where did that come from; do

·2· ·you know?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's Mr. Clinckett's design.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so what I'm trying to

·5· ·understand is, you say Mr. Sennett prepared all of

·6· ·this.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And how did he give it to you?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I met him.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Where did you meet him?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Hand presented.· At Levon's

12· ·office or his own office.· We were meeting so often,

13· ·almost every second day we were meeting each other

14· ·and discussing the situation in Eastwood.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you have a memory of him

16· ·giving you this document?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have a memory that I have

18· ·signed the document.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Listen to the question: Do you

20· ·have a memory of him giving you the document?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember.· Did we --

22· ·I don't recall, sir, I'm sorry.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you read it before you

24· ·signed it?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not completely, since it is

·1· ·a company that it is going to work for us, it's

·2· ·a good intention at that time, at least.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you believe that it was

·4· ·legitimate?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At that time, yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you believe that this

·7· ·company, sorry, the Empire Roofing and Restoration

·8· ·Inc. was actually going to do the work that

·9· ·Mr. Clinckett was proposing for the roof?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was under the impression that

13· ·if this -- what Mr. Sennett has mentioned and we get

14· ·the fund, we were going to get a contractor to do

15· ·the job, under Mr. Sennett's supervision.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So who would that contractor

17· ·enter into a contract with, as you understood it?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have no idea, sir.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Would that contractor enter into

20· ·a contract with Eastwood?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Again, I don't know what is the

22· ·meaning of this company.· That's where I was vague

23· ·and uncomfortable of where we are going with this

24· ·situation.· How can a company be established and pay

25· ·to himself, as a contractor?· So, that's where I got

·1· ·confused.· I realized I'm going wrong way and I took

·2· ·the steps to get advice.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But Empire Roofing -- the Empire

·4· ·Roofing and Restoration -- or to put it another way,

·5· ·Mr. Sennett had no experience in construction;

·6· ·right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So why did you think Mr. Sennett

·9· ·was going to be able to convince ELNOS or anyone

10· ·else that was going to be providing financing that

11· ·this was a good project to be lending money on,

12· ·given his complete inexperience?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Very simple.· We were in

14· ·desperation and Mr. Sennett had high education and

15· ·we believed his decision must be the right decision

16· ·at that time.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, at this time you'd been in

18· ·business as a businessman in this country for a long

19· ·time; right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·20 years?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·More than that.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·More than that.· You'd signed

24· ·a lot of contracts; right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I suggest to you that you were

·2· ·very careful about signing contracts; right?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And one of the things you were

·5· ·very careful about was the price that you were going

·6· ·to have to pay on a contract; right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Can you tell me why, if you

·9· ·thought this was a legitimate contract, you signed

10· ·it without any price on it?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·With all respect, this is

12· ·a second contract.· We had another contract with the

13· ·price on it.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Signed contract?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, signed contract.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Before June 16th, 2008?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know before or after but

18· ·we had another contract with the price and detail on

19· ·it.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·There is another one which is in

21· ·August that's signed by both parties.· This is in

22· ·June.· You signed this contract in June and there is

23· ·no price on it.· Can you tell me why you would sign

24· ·a contract to have this work done with no price?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think we -- I have

·1· ·over-trusted Mr. Sennett at that time, sir.· It was

·2· ·a mistake.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Have you ever signed a blank

·4· ·contract with the price blank before?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir, not to everyone, but

·6· ·this gentleman was so close to our family, that

·7· ·I could have signed my eyes closed.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When the contract was signed,

·9· ·how many copies were there?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, I'm sorry.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, did you keep a copy?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think we had a copy, but

13· ·signed copy, not this one.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You mean an unsigned copy?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I don't think so.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·My question -- let me ask again

17· ·because --

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Actually a copy was given to my

19· ·son, not myself, but I have seen the copy and there

20· ·was price in it.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, I'm talking about this

22· ·document in front of you, sir, Exhibit No. 748,

23· ·which is the only CCDC contract that we've seen;

24· ·right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You know what a CCDC contract

·2· ·is?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this is the only one; right?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When this was --

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This is not the only one, I'm

·8· ·sorry.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·This is not the only CCDC

10· ·contract?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, this is not the only one

12· ·without the price.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Listen: Is there another CCDC

14· ·contract for this work?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You know what a CCDC is?· It is

17· ·this standard form contract that you're looking at?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Have you seen another one, other

20· ·than this?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You don't remember.· Who -- when

23· ·this was signed, sir, who took away the original?

24· ·Did you take it away from the meeting or did

25· ·Mr. Sennett take it away?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't recall, sir, I'm sorry.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you think

·3· ·Mr. Sennett was going to do after this contract was

·4· ·signed?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The only impression I had about

·6· ·Mr. Sennett is he is a nice gentleman and he is

·7· ·trying to help us.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But I asked you what you thought

·9· ·he was going to do with it not whether he was

10· ·a nice person.

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I thought he was going to try to

12· ·do his best to get some kind of grant for us so that

13· ·we could work on the roof of the mall.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But just to be clear, you --

15· ·when you signed this contract on June 16th, 2008 --

16· ·as far as you were concerned, it was a legitimate

17· ·contract, whereby Eastwood was agreeing to contract

18· ·with Empire Roofing and Restoration to do this work;

19· ·is that correct?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, sir --

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Is that right?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The only reason I have signed

23· ·this contract is because I thought this gentleman is

24· ·trying to help us any way possible.· I got fooled

25· ·with the friendship and so on, and I have signed

·1· ·this contract.· It was mistake.· I had --

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm going to ask the question,

·3· ·sir, until I get an answer.

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·You can ask 100 time if you

·5· ·like.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I only want to ask it once

·7· ·and I'll get one answer; is that okay?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Please.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When you signed this contract on

10· ·June 16th, 2008, did you think it was a legitimate

11· ·contract, under which the company called the Empire

12· ·Roofing and Restoration Inc. was going to deliver to

13· ·Eastwood Mall the work that's described therein,

14· ·that is the waterproofing and asphalt cover; did you

15· ·think it was a legitimate contract?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I thought legitimately he's

17· ·working for us.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Listen to the question, sir.

19· ·It's a simple question: Did you think this was

20· ·a legitimate contract?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry, I can't answer your

22· ·question.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why can you not answer?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Because I'm not sure where we

25· ·are going with this because I trusted the gentleman.

·1· ·At that moment I find out that I am making

·2· ·a mistake, as you said, signing a contract without

·3· ·knowing more detail about it.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, with respect -- don't

·5· ·trouble yourself with where we're going.

·6· · · · · · · · · I'm asking a question, sir and in

·7· ·my -- in my submission I'm entitled to an answer.

·8· ·So I'll ask it again: When you signed this contract

·9· ·did you think it was a real, legitimate contract

10· ·under which Empire Roofing and Restoration Inc. was

11· ·going to deliver to Eastwood Mall the fluid applied

12· ·waterproofing and asphalt cover described in it?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was under the impression that

14· ·was legitimate.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he was going to see that the

16· ·work was done?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· Now, at the time

19· ·this was signed on June 16th, 2008, you had also

20· ·retained Mr. Holford; right?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in fact, as we saw just

23· ·before the lunch, he gave you a quote on June 13th,

24· ·just three days before, for the tent, of some

25· ·17 million and you rejected that; right?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you'd also still had -- you

·3· ·still had Mr. Clinckett on retainer; right?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At that time, yes, I still --

·5· ·still we had Mr. Clinckett on board because we were

·6· ·not sure, Mr. Holford's reaction, what it would be.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So Mr. Holford was trying to

·8· ·figure out what you could do to fix the roof; right?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right, that's right.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Clinckett was trying to

11· ·figure out what you could do to fix the roof;

12· ·correct?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And at the same time you began

15· ·to talk to Mr. Day; right?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The same time?· I'm not sure if

17· ·it's the same time.· I'm sorry.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, if you turn to tab 43,

19· ·sir, it's Exhibit No. 657.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.· June 22nd?

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· Just wait till we have

22· ·the document on the screen, sir.

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So this is a letter to you from

25· ·Mr. Day dated June 22nd, six days after you signed

·1· ·the contract and the "Re" line is:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "Membrane Waterproofing of

·3· · · · · · · · · Deck & Asphalt Finish "

·4· · · · · · · · · And Mr. Day writes:

·5· · · · · · · · · · "We are pleased to submit the

·6· · · · · · · · · following information for your

·7· · · · · · · · · review."

·8· · · · · · · · · Do you recall getting that letter?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, yes.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he has attached to it terms

11· ·of what he proposes to do with prices, and then

12· ·there are signing lines at the back on the page that

13· ·ends -280.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Which I have not signed.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· But on June 22nd he sent

16· ·to you this proposed contract; right?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, on June 16th you signed the

19· ·contract with Empire Roofing.· You still had

20· ·Mr. Holford investigating options.· You still had

21· ·Mr. Clinckett dealing with potential ways to fix the

22· ·roof, and you had Mr. Day sending you this contract.

23· ·How could all four of those things be going on at

24· ·the same time?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It shows how active we were and

·1· ·how perseverance we had to fix that roof.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you'll agree with me you

·3· ·could not, at the same time, carry out the contract

·4· ·with Empire Roofing and do any of the things you

·5· ·were looking at with Mr. Holford, Mr. Day or

·6· ·Mr. Clinckett; right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Doody, with all respect, the

·8· ·only contract we signed at that time was Empire

·9· ·Roofing.· We did not sign with Peak Restoration.· We

10· ·did not sign with -- with John Clinckett, neither

11· ·with Mr. Kleinfeldt and there is nothing wrong, if

12· ·you are struggling to find the best way to do the

13· ·job.· It's a big contract.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If you decided to go with

15· ·Empire, why did you keep Mr. Holford and

16· ·Mr. Clinckett and Mr. Day even talking to you?· If

17· ·you'd made the decision to go with Empire, there

18· ·would be no need to talk to anybody else, would

19· ·there?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't accept that statement,

21· ·sir.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well --

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·You can talk to any contractor,

24· ·any kind of position, which is the best, suitable

25· ·for us.· Mr. -- Peak Restoration was the cheapest

·1· ·one, by the way, cheaper than any one of them.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you don't know that

·3· ·because you didn't even have a price from Empire.

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I know that because we got

·5· ·another contract with the -- with the price in it

·6· ·and everything.· It was close to $800,000

·7· ·approximately.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·From Empire?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That was in August?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· At the end of June, you

13· ·didn't know what Empire was going to charge you

14· ·because you left the price blank?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, but we didn't sign the

16· ·contract.· Empire Roofing, yes, we signed, yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, I suggest to you that the

18· ·contract dated June 16th with Empire Roofing was

19· ·never intended by you to be a real contract, but was

20· ·simply a sham to be used to obtain financing; is

21· ·that correct?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I would not call it that way,

23· ·sir.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's your statement.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, the letter from Mr. Day

·2· ·that we have on the screen, which is at tab 43, and

·3· ·the proposed contract, was that given to

·4· ·Mr. Sennett?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When was it given to

·7· ·Mr. Sennett?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know.· Don't ask me

·9· ·about the date.· I know that he had this and he has

10· ·worked on it, with -- with Mr. Brian England.

11· ·Mr. Sennett was knocking some doors, I can't

12· ·understand, without my knowledge.· I know that Brian

13· ·England brought this contract to Mr. Sennett's

14· ·presentation and what they did, I know that they

15· ·even presented to ELNOS without my knowledge.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When did Mr. Sennett get this

19· ·contract from Mr. England, this draft contract?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Umm...

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You say you know that happened.

22· ·How do you know?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I've been told.· And as well as

24· ·they --

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who told you?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Who told me?· I don't know.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When were you told?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Maybe -- again you are going on

·4· ·dates which I'm not very sure.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I'm entitled to ask the

·6· ·question.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course you are, sir.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When were you told that

·9· ·Mr. Sennett was given a copy of this document,

10· ·Exhibit No. 657?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I know that Mr. Sennett was

12· ·talking to Mr. Rene Fabris and I have the

13· ·information that Mr. Fabris even was following with

14· ·ELNOS whether we can get a mortgagor not.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, this is an important point.

16· · · · · · · · · I need to ask these specific

17· ·questions and, with respect, sir, I'd like specific

18· ·answers.· So my first question was: How do you know

19· ·that Mr. Sennett got a copy of this draft contract

20· ·put together by Mr. Day?· And you told me somebody

21· ·told you; right?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, probably Brian England.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, just a second.· I'm not

24· ·going to ask "probably". I said "How did you know"

25· ·and you said somebody told you.

·1· · · · · · · · · So that means you did not see

·2· ·Mr. Sennett with this copy -- with this contract;

·3· ·right?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Sennett has made this copy.

·5· ·How could I say that I did not see Mr. Sennett with

·6· ·this --

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Listen to the question: Did you

·8· ·ever see Mr. Sennett with this document in his

·9· ·possession?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Are you insisting that I lie

11· ·from what I know?

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm not suggesting anything.

13· ·I'm asking questions in order that the Commissioner

14· ·can have the evidentiary basis upon which he can

15· ·make --

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, you are trying to make --

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- factual decisions -- no, I'm

18· ·asking questions.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you see Mr. Sennett with

21· ·this document?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I see Mr. Sennett prepare this

23· ·document.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You saw Mr. Sennett prepare this

25· ·contract --

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, he has established --

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- for Mr. Day?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·What?· We are talking about Peak

·4· ·Restoration --

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes, we're talking about --

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·-- or we are talking about

·7· ·Empire Roofing?

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- Exhibit No. 657, which is the

·9· ·document in front of you which is the draft contract

10· ·prepared by Mr. Day.· That's what we're talking

11· ·about.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm sorry, it's a mix up.

13· ·I thought -- I was --

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Let's start again.

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was under the impression that

16· ·you are talking about Empire Roofing.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Let's start again.

18· · · · · · · · · This document, Exhibit No. 657, Day's

19· ·draft contract, do you know whether Mr. Sennett was

20· ·ever given a copy of it?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not aware of it.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· Now can you tell us

23· ·how you got involved with Mr. Day?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Day was introduced to me

25· ·with Mr. Brian England.· It just happened that they

·1· ·introduced me to an aboriginal Chief named Isadore

·2· ·Day, and they were discussing about -- Mr. Day was

·3· ·suggesting if he can open a centre for aboriginal in

·4· ·the mall, and for that respect, he came one day in

·5· ·our place.· Very pleasant gentleman.· And at the

·6· ·same time he -- we talked about the situation in the

·7· ·roof, and he said, "My cousin, Glen Day, is a roof

·8· ·specialist," and as well as Brian England previously

·9· ·told me about Mr. Day.· So we got in touch with him

10· ·and he has prepared this document, this contract.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you have dinner

12· ·with Mr. Day and -- with Glen Day and Isadore Day

13· ·and Mr. Fabris and Mr. England at the Dunlop Lodge?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you remember when that was --

16· ·when that took place?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Again, I don't know the dates.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Some time around the middle, end

19· ·of June?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was Mr. Sennett at that dinner?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you discuss at the

24· ·dinner?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We discuss about the roof

·1· ·repair.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And after the dinner did

·3· ·you talk to Mr. Day about him doing some work on the

·4· ·roof?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you meet with him and

·7· ·walk around the mall with him?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not around the mall.· We went on

11· ·top of the roof.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's what I meant, I'm sorry.

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not inside.· That's what I mean.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· So when you went on

15· ·the roof with him, did he show you -- did you talk

16· ·about the repairs that had been done?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did he tell you?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It's not what he tell me.

20· ·I told him that Mr. John Clinckett, architect, has

21· ·suggested this scenario that we can put a membrane

22· ·and cover with 3 inch asphalt at that time and

23· ·that's it.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did Mr. Day then walk around

25· ·inside the mall with Mr. England?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I did not.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did Mr. Day tell you

·3· ·anything about what he thought about the condition

·4· ·of the steel under the roof deck?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not at all, sir.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did he tell you that the steel

·7· ·below the deck would have to be repaired and a lot

·8· ·replaced because of the years of leaks?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, the steel under the deck on

10· ·the walkway twice had been sandblast by me, and

11· ·painted.· And it was very healthy.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did Mr. Day tell you --

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That the --

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Let me ask the question so it's

17· ·clear: Did Mr. Day tell you that the steel

18· ·underneath the rooftop parking deck would have to be

19· ·repaired and a lot of it replaced because of years

20· ·of leaks?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Absolutely not.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, sir, I showed you the --

23· ·yesterday, the series of engineering reports

24· ·including the report by the Trow Engineering firm in

25· ·1995.· Mr. Day says that he read it at the mall.· Do

·1· ·you have any explanation as to how he could have

·2· ·done that?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not at all.· I didn't have

·4· ·a copy.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did Mr. Day say anything to you

·6· ·about the -- any problems with the weight of the

·7· ·asphalt?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not Mr. Day.· I had problem to

·9· ·understand whether that roof can handle that much

10· ·weight.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you talk to Mr. Day

12· ·about that?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, Mr. Day was not on the

14· ·picture at that time.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, Mr. Day testified

16· ·that before he sent you this draft contract on June

17· ·22nd -- sorry, he had met with you and talked about

18· ·him maybe doing the work before he sent you the

19· ·draft contract; is that right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Tell me when -- the draft

22· ·contract is dated June 22nd; how long after the time

23· ·you walked around the mall was that?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·They have started the contract

25· ·without even signing the contract and without my

·1· ·permission.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, please, again you are not

·3· ·answering the question.

·4· · · · · · · · · You told me you walked around the

·5· ·roof deck with Mr. Day; do you remember telling me

·6· ·that?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what I'm trying to find out

·9· ·is how long between then and this contract being

10· ·sent to you on June 22nd?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But do you agree that the walk

13· ·around the mall happened before you got this draft

14· ·contract?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Around the rooftop of the mall.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you get this

19· ·draft contract from Mr. Day?· It is addressed to

20· ·your attention, along with Mr. England's and

21· ·Mr. Clinckett's attention, and it is sent -- it's

22· ·addressed to your home on 22 Boyle Drive in

23· ·Richmond Hill?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You got it?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you do when you got

·3· ·it?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Nothing.· We again communicate

·5· ·we are going to work on it or not.· We actually --

·6· ·we ask him to keep on hold because at that time we

·7· ·were inquiring whether we can -- we can be able to

·8· ·implement that contract of Mr. Clinckett or not, the

·9· ·3 inch asphalt I'm talking about.

10· · · · · · · · · So, we did not respond to him to

11· ·start with, and --

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You say "we."· What do you mean,

13· ·you personally?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·My family.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you did not talk to

16· ·him?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Me or my son, so often we were

18· ·decision-makers.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·So we put Mr. Day on hold until

21· ·we get a response from Kleinfeldt.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And how did you put him on hold?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We did not sign the contract.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell him that he was

25· ·being put on hold or did you just not sign the

·1· ·contract?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We did not sign the contract so,

·3· ·we did not honour the contract until we are sure

·4· ·that that's what we want to do.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, if I could have you turn to

·6· ·tab 45, sir, which is Exhibit No. 656.· This is

·7· ·a note from Mr. Robert Cousineau at Peak Restoration

·8· ·dated June 24th, 2008.

·9· · · · · · · · · And Mr. Cousineau reports, in the

10· ·fourth paragraph:

11· · · · · · · · · · "Today the 24 of June we

12· · · · · · · · · removed approx 200 feet of

13· · · · · · · · · expansion joint and caulking

14· · · · · · · · · joint all together.· We removed

15· · · · · · · · · a concrete patch 18 inches in

16· · · · · · · · · width and approximately 10 feet

17· · · · · · · · · in length.· Recovered area with

18· · · · · · · · · KING concrete, and re-sealed the

19· · · · · · · · · area with backer rod and Dymonic

20· · · · · · · · · sealant."

21· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, was that work that he

22· ·described, was that the work that Mr. Day had

23· ·described in his contract -- draft contract?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not exactly.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How was it different?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·When I went to see what they

·2· ·have done after this date --

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, sir, I'm not asking what you

·4· ·went to see, I'm asking you if this description that

·5· ·I just read to you, is that what Mr. Day said he was

·6· ·going to do?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Is going to do or did?

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In the draft contract he sent

·9· ·you on June 22nd --

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- he described what he was

12· ·going to do; right?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You read that?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what I'm asking you is, do

17· ·you think that what is described in this paragraph,

18· ·I just read to you, is that consistent with what was

19· ·in the contract?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure where he's going

21· ·with that because this is not part of the contract

22· ·and Mr. Cousineau is not part of the contract.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, Mr. Cousineau, the

24· ·evidence is, worked for Mr. Day's company, Peak

25· ·Restoration.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah.· He did not have authority

·2· ·to state what he's going to do.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, he is not doing anything

·4· ·with authority, he is just describing what he did on

·5· ·that day.

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In any event, did you know that

·8· ·work was being done on June 24th?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, illegally.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And how did you find that out?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Because I went down there

12· ·myself.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you didn't go down there

14· ·on the 24th, did you?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure when I was there,

16· ·but I was there ...

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Turn to tab 46, the second page.

18· ·There is a letter there dated June 24th, 2008 and

19· ·it's Exhibit No. 1482, I'm sorry.

20· · · · · · · · · Mr. Fabris wrote you on June 24th,

21· ·2008 and he sent it by fax and he said:

22· · · · · · · · · · "Please be advised that I have

23· · · · · · · · · yet to receive an opinion letter

24· · · · · · · · · from Mr. Clinckett with respect

25· · · · · · · · · to the additional weight load on

·1· · · · · · · · · the roof of the mall."

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Stop there.· We saw that

·4· ·Mr. Fabris had written Mr. Clinckett at your

·5· ·suggestion asking for his opinion as to whether or

·6· ·not the roof would bear the weight of the asphalt?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then secondly, Mr. Fabris goes

·9· ·on to say:

10· · · · · · · · · · "Further, perhaps you could

11· · · · · · · · · advise me as to why contractors

12· · · · · · · · · are currently working at the

13· · · · · · · · · site.· It is my understanding

14· · · · · · · · · that the contract is yet to be

15· · · · · · · · · executed and/or awarded.

16· · · · · · · · · · I look forward to hearing from

17· · · · · · · · · you ..."

18· · · · · · · · · When you got this letter, sir -- did

19· ·you get it on 24th of June?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Obviously.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And was this the first you knew

22· ·there were people working on the roof?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was shocked.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was this the first you knew

25· ·there were people --

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· What did you do?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I jumped in my car and I came

·4· ·over to see what was happening.· We didn't sign any

·5· ·contract.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Why they have started.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is it your evidence

·9· ·you went up to Elliot Lake on the -- on 24th June?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I went to the -- on top of

11· ·the roof with Mr. Fabris.· We looked around and what

12· ·we have seen, it was blue tapes all over the place

13· ·and everything nice and flat.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, I'm not trying to trick you

15· ·here.· I believe the evidence from Mr. Fabris is

16· ·that that visit to the top of the mall roof with you

17· ·was on July 16th or 17th, two weeks -- two to three

18· ·weeks, three and a half weeks later; is that

19· ·possible?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· I'm sorry, what

22· ·date?

23· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· July 16th to 17th --

24· · · · · · · · · (Simultaneous speakers - unclear)

25· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Perhaps you want

·1· ·to start that again.

·2· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And I do not want to trick you,

·4· ·sir, but I believe the evidence about the visit by

·5· ·you and Mr. Fabris to the roof of the mall where you

·6· ·saw the Blueskin laid out around was July 16th or

·7· ·17th, after there had been complaints of leaks in

·8· ·the mall; is that possible?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Possible, sir.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Because this is June 24th and

11· ·the work, from the evidence, is just starting by

12· ·Mr. Day's forces.

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Okay.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Does that help?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, sure, sure.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you remember what you did

17· ·when you got Mr. Fabris' letter of June 24th?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I called Mr. Fabris and I asked

19· ·"Why have they started the work?· We have not

20· ·executed the contract yet."

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you give him any

22· ·instructions as to what to do?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you learn from

25· ·Mr. Fabris?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I learned with Mr. Fabris that

·2· ·they are working on top of the roof.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what did you do then?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I called Brian England and

·5· ·I said, "How did you permit them to start without

·6· ·knowing whether they have a contract or not?"

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did Mr. England say?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He said that, "I was under

·9· ·impression that you have given them permit to

10· ·start."

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you do then?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Then I'm not sure whether I was

13· ·busy or so on, but I remember that I came to the

14· ·mall, not far from this date, and --

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, let's look at a couple

16· ·more documents so that you don't get confused.

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, please.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If I could have you turn to

19· ·tab 47, sir, Exhibit No. 3765.· This is an invoice

20· ·from Peak Restoration addressed to -- issued to

21· ·Eastwood Mall Inc.· It is dated June 25th, 2008 and

22· ·it's in the amount of $50,000 plus $2,500 GST.

23· · · · · · · · · Now, do you recall getting this

24· ·invoice, sir?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. Day has testified that

·2· ·this was paid.

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That he got a cheque from

·5· ·Eastwood for 52,500?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you issue that cheque?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes -- not myself but it was

·9· ·issued -- it was my company who issued the cheque,

10· ·Eastwood Mall Inc.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·On your instructions?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And when was that done?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·A week after which we see that

15· ·they have started the contract and they were asking

16· ·for mobilization money, otherwise they won't

17· ·continue.· They have already started so we couldn't

18· ·go backward so we had to honour the contract one way

19· ·or the other.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you agreed to pay him and you

21· ·paid him?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·52,500?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We did another payment as well.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes, and we'll get to that in

·1· ·a minute.

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

·3· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· You said you had

·4· ·to honour the contract.· What contract?

·5· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The contract that Peak

·6· ·Restoration has presented us, even though we have

·7· ·not signed it but they had already started without

·8· ·our permission so we didn't have way to go back and

·9· ·fix it.· They have already jackhammered the roof and

10· ·so on, so --

11· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Why pay them if

12· ·they're doing work that you haven't agreed to and in

13· ·relation to which you have no contract?

14· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That is the question

15· ·that I was always asking: Why did they start without

16· ·my instruction?

17· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· That's not the

18· ·question I'm asking: Why did you pay them?

19· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Why did I pay him?

20· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Yeah.

21· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I didn't have choice.

22· ·They have already started.· They have already make

23· ·holes on the roof, so many places, so I didn't have

24· ·the choice to go back and fill it up.· I had to let

25· ·them do whatever they can do.

·1· · · · · · · · · They did not start with the

·2· ·engineer's instruction.· They did not start with my

·3· ·instruction.· They just go ahead and brought a dozen

·4· ·aboriginal people and they start to jackhammer the

·5· ·roof.

·6· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· So if I was to go

·7· ·up on one of your properties and start work on

·8· ·there, and then I sent you a bill, you would pay me?

·9· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· No, your Honour, I had

10· ·a manager there, that's why I blamed to my manager.

11· ·Why did he allow these people come and start job

12· ·without showing you a contract or any permission?

13· ·This was -- this just happened after that they have

14· ·started and they were working.

15· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Okay.

16· · · · · · · · · Go ahead.

17· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.

19· · · · · · · · · I wonder if you could take up

20· ·volume 5 and Mr. Bernard may have to get it for you.

21· ·And I wonder, sir ...

22· · · · · · · · · I wonder if I could have Exhibit No.

23· ·1580 which is tab 1 of volume 5.· Now, sir, this is

24· ·Mr. Day's draft contract which was sent to you on

25· ·June 22nd.· And the differences are that, first of

·1· ·all, this one is signed.· If you go to the last

·2· ·page, it's signed by Mr. Day on June 27th, and it's

·3· ·signed by Mr. England over the heading

·4· ·"Eastwood Mall Inc." and somebody has written

·5· ·"Witness" on June 27th.· And the page --

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Who --

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm going to ask you about that.

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure, okay.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But I'm just identifying it

10· ·here.

11· · · · · · · · · And the page before the last page,

12· ·which ends -8085, has the asphalt topping item

13· ·crossed out with the words "Not included" written on

14· ·it, and every page and that crossing out has been

15· ·initialed; do you see that?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you know this contract was

18· ·being signed?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not at all.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. England testified that you

21· ·asked him to sign the contract on behalf of

22· ·Eastwood.

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Without my signature?· We are

24· ·signing an $800,000 or more of contract?· That's

25· ·a lie, sir.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When did you first learn

·2· ·that the contract had been signed?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir, I don't

·4· ·know.· I might not have been forwarded this even.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If you could turn to tab 3, sir,

·6· ·Exhibit No. 1494, you will see there is a letter

·7· ·sent to Mr. England by fax from Mr. Fabris with

·8· ·a copy to you, on June 30th, 2008.· And Mr. Fabris

·9· ·wrote:

10· · · · · · · · · · "I have reviewed the quote

11· · · · · · · · · from Building Restoration and

12· · · · · · · · · General Contracting, and confirm

13· · · · · · · · · you attended our office on

14· · · · · · · · · June 27, 2008 along with Mr. Day

15· · · · · · · · · to execute the contract."

16· · · · · · · · · And he says in the third paragraph:

17· · · · · · · · · · "I confirm we excluded from

18· · · · · · · · · the contract the asphalt topping

19· · · · · · · · · component as I understand that

20· · · · · · · · · you are reviewing a contract

21· · · · · · · · · with KJ Beamish to undertake

22· · · · · · · · · this.

23· · · · · · · · · · I have not been able to check

24· · · · · · · · · any references for Mr. Day, but

25· · · · · · · · · I understand that you have done

·1· · · · · · · · · so and confirmed that he is a

·2· · · · · · · · · reputable contractor who has

·3· · · · · · · · · a history of performing this

·4· · · · · · · · · type of work.

·5· · · · · · · · · · I further understand

·6· · · · · · · · · a representative was present on

·7· · · · · · · · · June 26th, 2008 with respect to

·8· · · · · · · · · the membrane and that the

·9· · · · · · · · · representative provided

10· · · · · · · · · a certification for Mr. Day's

11· · · · · · · · · company to install the

12· · · · · · · · · membrane."

13· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, a copy of this was sent to

14· ·you on that date; did you get it that day?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And was this the first time that

17· ·you knew that the contract had been signed?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you did know that they'd

20· ·been working for a few days.

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you do when you got

23· ·this?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·First of all, I was

25· ·uncomfortable feeling that how could it be that we

·1· ·are canceling the asphalt on top and yet we are

·2· ·signing a contract to go ahead and do the job?

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you think about that?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Very unusual.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you think it was a little

·6· ·crazy?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Kind of.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did Mr. Fabris say anything to

·9· ·you before the contract was signed on 27th June

10· ·about whether you should hire Mr. Day to do the

11· ·work?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think the whole scenario was

13· ·coming to Mr. Brian England.· He was the one who was

14· ·promoting Peak Restoration and Glen Day to do the

15· ·job and he was convincing Mr. Fabris that this

16· ·person is knowledgeable and he knows what he's

17· ·doing.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did Mr. Fabris say anything to

19· ·you before the contract was signed about whether he

20· ·thought you should hire Mr. Day to do the work?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The only thing Mr. Fabris said

22· ·was it seems this company is legitimate.· He has the

23· ·Workmen's Compensation and he has a valid insurance.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did Mr. Fabris ask you where you

25· ·were going to get the money?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We had explained previously

·2· ·about that, sir.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, no, listen to the question:

·4· ·Did Mr. Fabris ask you where you were going to get

·5· ·the money?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, we did not talk about that.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Because Mr. Fabris testified

·8· ·that he had a conversation in which he asked you

·9· ·where you'd get the money before the contract was

10· ·signed, and you told him it would be taken care of.

11· ·Does that refresh your memory?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Could be.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did it or did it not happen?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I don't remember every

15· ·conversation that I had.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell Mr. Fabris on the

17· ·Sunday before the contract was signed that you were

18· ·going to give the contract to Mr. Day?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Fabris testified that you

21· ·did.

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It's -- Mr. Day's contract was

23· ·simply unprecedented because we did not sign his

24· ·contract and we talked about it and we were

25· ·inquiring about the possibility of that kind of

·1· ·repair, it would be suitable for our roof or not and

·2· ·yet, next, we know the job has been started.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Fabris testified that he had

·4· ·a conversation with you on the Sunday before it was

·5· ·signed.· The conversation was on the phone and it

·6· ·went up to three hours.· And he told you it was

·7· ·a bad idea.· Do you recall -- or -- can you say

·8· ·anything about that?· Does that help you refresh

·9· ·your memory?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm -- (Simultaneous speakers -

11· ·unclear) not about the Peak Restoration, about the

12· ·Empire Roofing.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, no, this is at the end of

14· ·June.· Mr. Fabris was very clear in his evidence --

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Where are you reading, sir?

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm telling you what he

17· ·testified to --

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, I see.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- before this Commission.· He

20· ·said he had a conversation with you on the telephone

21· ·that was up to three hours in length on the Sunday

22· ·before this contract with Peak Restoration was

23· ·signed and told you that it was a bad idea.· Did

24· ·that happen?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Possible.· I don't recall, sir

·1· ·I'm sorry.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If it was a bad idea as you were

·3· ·told by Mr. Fabris, if you were told that, can you

·4· ·tell us why you signed it or why it was signed?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I cannot.· I believe one of

·6· ·the reason is because they have already started and

·7· ·they had digged the roof so many places.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell Mr. Fabris that the

·9· ·work just had to get started?· The repair work on

10· ·the roof had to get started?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Fabris told me that they

12· ·have started, "Did you authorize their job to

13· ·start?"· I said "No."· He said, "They have been

14· ·working on top of the roof for almost a week or more

15· ·even."

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Fabris testified that you

17· ·told him that Mr. England could sign the contract on

18· ·behalf of Eastwood; is that so?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir, not that kind of

20· ·contract, no way.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, this contract that Mr. Day

22· ·was entering into, the whole idea was that he was

23· ·going to be applying a membrane prepared by this

24· ·company called Carlisle, from the States, right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That is the company where Brian

·1· ·England used to work previously.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· And that's what Mr. Day

·3· ·was supposed to be applying?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Under the supervision of

·5· ·Mr. John Clinckett.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· But it was supposed to

·7· ·be a Carlisle membrane?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Membrane.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the cost of the materials

10· ·was about $160,000; right?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, we had an argument on that.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·With whom did you have that

13· ·argument?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·With Mr. Day.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What was it about?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Day was asking us not only

17· ·pay for the mobilization of the job, but as well as

18· ·paying this money in advance which we didn't trust

19· ·and we said, "No way, you have to start the job.

20· ·You have to show us that you are going to do the job

21· ·before we pay."

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. Day testified that you

23· ·wanted him to put up the $160,000 --

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- is that right?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you ever get a building

·3· ·permit for that work that Mr. Day's company was

·4· ·doing?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not me.· As I understand, the

·6· ·building permit has to be prepared or got by

·7· ·contractor or the manager of the mall, not myself.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And as far as you knew, who was

·9· ·looking after getting the building permit?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was under no impression that

11· ·they were not going to -- we didn't know that they

12· ·have started first of all, but if they started, they

13· ·had to have building permit in their hand for such

14· ·an excessive job.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you certainly knew on

16· ·June 30th; right?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you ask whether a building

19· ·permit had been applied for?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who did you think was looking

22· ·after that?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Normally Glen Day is supposed to

24· ·get a building permit before starting jackhammering

25· ·the roof or doing any kind of job, that's Mr. Day's

·1· ·job.· But under any circumstances, if he was going

·2· ·to ask our manager to get the building permit, he

·3· ·had to get all the information of what they are

·4· ·doing or so on from Mr. Glen Day, put it on the

·5· ·paper, take it to the City and get approved and get

·6· ·the building permit so, automatically the

·7· ·information had to come from Glen Day or John

·8· ·Clinckett.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I just asked you who you thought

10· ·was looking after it, sir.

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I beg your pardon?

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I simply asked you who you

13· ·thought was looking after it.· What's the answer?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Glen Day.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· So between

16· ·April 20th and June 30th, on the evidence we've

17· ·heard so far, first of all on April 20th you agreed

18· ·to give the contract to C3 Harrell; right?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then you decided not to give

21· ·them the contract; right?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I present my evidence.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then you retained Mr. Holford on

24· ·May 26th, to review the C3 Harrell proposal and give

25· ·you some advice about a permanent repair?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then you met with ELNOS on

·3· ·May 30th and told Mr. Elliott that contractors were

·4· ·working on the roof and the cost would be $980,000,

·5· ·and you told him you'd be putting a membrane on;

·6· ·right?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, that's what our intention

·8· ·was.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then you signed the contract

10· ·with Empire Roofing on June 16th; right?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then you decided to, if not

13· ·allow Mr. Day to start work, let him carry on

14· ·working; right?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We did not allow.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you didn't tell him to

17· ·stop.

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Did he -- he did start on his

19· ·own, sir, without signing any contract.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you paid him?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, we paid him once we see

22· ·that it already -- damage is done on the top of the

23· ·roof.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, you paid him on 2nd July;

25· ·right?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So he just --

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He start June 24th, I believe.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's right.

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·So it was already more than

·6· ·a week that he was digging the roof.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you didn't -- you didn't

·8· ·stop him?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I -- it was wrong to stop

10· ·him because he has -- damage is already done.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Anyway, you paid him; right?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You learned that Mr. Fabris had

14· ·had the contract signed with Mr. England signing for

15· ·Eastwood; right?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then on -- if I could have

18· ·you turn to tab 4 of volume 5, Exhibit No. 1558.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Four.· Tab ...?

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Four.

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Exhibit No. 1558.· This is

23· ·a letter to you from Mr. Fabris dated July 2nd,

24· ·2008.· And he writes:

25· · · · · · · · · · "Further to our

·1· · · · · · · · · conversation ..."

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Where are we?

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right at the beginning, tab 4,

·4· ·volume 5?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Volume 5?

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry.· Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·This is a letter to you from

·9· ·Mr. Fabris on July 2nd, and he writes:

10· · · · · · · · · · "Further to our conversation

11· · · · · · · · · of June 26th, 2008 I confirm

12· · · · · · · · · that I have reviewed the weight

13· · · · · · · · · calculations from Mr. Clinckett;

14· · · · · · · · · I also confirm that you are

15· · · · · · · · · satisfied as to the ability of

16· · · · · · · · · the Mall to support the added

17· · · · · · · · · weight of both the asphalt and

18· · · · · · · · · the membrane."

19· · · · · · · · · Was that the conversation, before the

20· ·contract was signed, June 26th, 2008, the long phone

21· ·call?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, but that was not satisfying

23· ·me, sir.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So when Mr. Fabris wrote that

25· ·you were satisfied, was that wrong?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, sir.· It depends who he was

·2· ·getting the information and who -- why I was not

·3· ·satisfied.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Let me back up.

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It is a very serious matter,

·6· ·sir.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, I know it is, and I am

·8· ·sorry, I should not have chuckled.· And it's my

·9· ·fault, I didn't express myself properly.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Fabris wrote you on July

12· ·2nd and he said:

13· · · · · · · · · · "I ... confirm that you" --

14· · · · · · · · · that is Mr. Bob Nazarian -- "are

15· · · · · · · · · satisfied as to the ability of

16· · · · · · · · · the Mall to support the added

17· · · · · · · · · weight of both the asphalt and

18· · · · · · · · · the membrane."

19· · · · · · · · · That's what he wrote you; right?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry, but there is no such

21· ·a thing as "you that mean me".· If you read it

22· ·properly he said:

23· · · · · · · · · · "Further to our conversation

24· · · · · · · · · on June 26th, 2008 I confirm

25· · · · · · · · · that I have reviewed the weight

·1· · · · · · · · · calculations from Mr. Clinckett;

·2· · · · · · · · · I also confirm that you are

·3· · · · · · · · · satisfied as to the ability of

·4· · · · · · · · · the Mall to support the added

·5· · · · · · · · · weight of both the asphalt and

·6· · · · · · · · · the membrane."

·7· · · · · · · · · It was not my statement, sir.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, but he's writing to you --

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yeah, he is confirming my idea

10· ·without my approval.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And I'm simply asking you: Was

12· ·he correct?· Were you satisfied as to the ability of

13· ·the mall to support the weight of the asphalt

14· ·and the membrane?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Definitely I was not sure.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So when Mr. Fabris wrote

17· ·that he concluded from the phone conversation on

18· ·June 26th that you were satisfied about that, he was

19· ·wrong?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I wouldn't say that.· He was

21· ·confused probably.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· In any event, you weren't

23· ·satisfied?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I was -- I had my doubts.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· He goes on to write, in

·1· ·the fourth paragraph:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "I understand that Mr. Day is

·3· · · · · · · · · to provide a two year

·4· · · · · · · · · warranty ..."

·5· · · · · · · · · First of all, going up one paragraph

·6· ·he says:

·7· · · · · · · · · · "I have reviewed the terms of

·8· · · · · · · · · the contract, which in the whole

·9· · · · · · · · · is legal and binding, and seems

10· · · · · · · · · to fulfill the requirements of

11· · · · · · · · · the leaky roof."

12· · · · · · · · · Now, by that he meant the Day

13· ·contract on June -- which was signed on June 27th;

14· ·right?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So he's telling you it's legal

17· ·and binding; right?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did that give you any concern,

20· ·since you'd signed a contract with Empire on

21· ·June 16th, some two weeks -- two and a half weeks

22· ·before this letter was written?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, as I have mentioned before,

24· ·I have signed Empire Roofing with respect of finding

25· ·funds for the roof and I had no idea of whether they

·1· ·are able to do the job or not able to do the job, we

·2· ·simply -- I simply trusted my friend Alex Sennett,

·3· ·that he would be able with this company to get fund

·4· ·for the operation of the roof of the mall and

·5· ·I regret that I did it, again, and legitimate or

·6· ·not, I was not sure at that time.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you knew you couldn't do

·8· ·both?· You couldn't have both Mr. Day do the job and

·9· ·Empire Roofing?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Definitely.· Empire Roofing was

11· ·a company belonged to one of my best friend and if

12· ·I say that I have started with Mr. Glen Day,

13· ·automatically he would drop the subject.· If that's

14· ·the reason that you would like to know yes, that's

15· ·what it is.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell Mr. Sennett that

17· ·you'd signed the contract with Peak?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He was well aware of it.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you tell him?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did he see a copy of it?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Copy of it?· Yes, I believe that

23· ·he has seen a copy.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·The contract with the --

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The copy of the -- yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Fabris goes on to write:

·2· · · · · · · · · · "I understand that Mr. Day is

·3· · · · · · · · · to provide a two year warranty

·4· · · · · · · · · as to the work that is to be

·5· · · · · · · · · done; and the membrane company

·6· · · · · · · · · will provide a five year

·7· · · · · · · · · warranty.· Both warranties are

·8· · · · · · · · · to be provided to us in

·9· · · · · · · · · writing."

10· · · · · · · · · No, was that true?· Was Mr. Day

11· ·supposed to give you a two-year warranty in addition

12· ·to the five-year warranty from Carlisle?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·There is no reason I would say

14· ·no, definitely I trust that that is true.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was that the deal?· That's what

16· ·I asked you.

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, if I could ask you

19· ·to turn to tab 47 of volume 4, so you have to go

20· ·back to volume 4, and this is Exhibit No. 3765.· And

21· ·I also asked you about the invoice on the first

22· ·page for $52,500 which is described as "Part 1 of

23· ·two mobilization payments".

24· · · · · · · · · And then if you go to the second

25· ·page, you can see another invoice in the same

·1· ·amount, again dated July 2nd, and it's described as

·2· ·"Part 2 of two mobilization payments" again for

·3· ·$50,000 plus GST.

·4· · · · · · · · · Now, do you recall getting this

·5· ·invoice, sir?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That invoice was not correct.

·7· ·We have not agreed to pay additional $50,000.· It

·8· ·was actually $30,000 over and above --

·9· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· The question is,

10· ·sir, listen, please Mr. Nazarian, you are making

11· ·this very long.· The only question that Mr. Doody

12· ·asked you was: Do you recall getting the invoice?

13· ·"Yes," "No," or "I don't know."

14· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, I have received --

15· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· That's all he's

16· ·saying: Do you recall getting the invoice?

17· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, sir.

18· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· That's all

19· ·you need to say is "Yes".

20· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I appreciate that.

21· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· You go on and you

22· ·engage in a lot of embroidery, which is making this

23· ·very long.

24· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I apologize.· The

25· ·reason I'm getting really description just to

·1· ·familiarize that the procedure of what we have done

·2· ·or what happened.

·3· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· I'd ask you simply

·4· ·to concentrate on the question that Mr. Doody -- or

·5· ·any other lawyer -- is asking you, to respond to

·6· ·that question, not to go on with other stuff because

·7· ·it's going to make this eternally long.

·8· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sure, sure,

·9· ·I appreciate that.

10· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Thank you.

11· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you recall getting the

13· ·invoice, sir?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I recall.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you speak to Mr. Day

16· ·after you got it?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What did you tell him?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I said, "I'm not going to pay

20· ·you additional 50,000.· I'm going to give you

21· ·$30,000 plus GST."

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did you come up with the

23· ·30,000?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's the agreement we got and

25· ·he didn't have any objection.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, if I could have you turn

·2· ·back to tab 1 of volume 5, sir, which is Exhibit No.

·3· ·1580.

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I beg your pardon.· Exhibition

·5· ·(sic) 5, you said?

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Volume 5, tab 1.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Tab 1, okay.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If you go to the last page of

·9· ·it, this is the contract with Mr. Day's company,

10· ·dated June 27th, and under "Terms of Payment," it

11· ·says:

12· · · · · · · · · · "Upon the commencement of

13· · · · · · · · · work, mobilization will be

14· · · · · · · · · invoiced at $100,000 plus GST.

15· · · · · · · · · Invoices to be broken out as

16· · · · · · · · · follows: $50,000 plus GST as per

17· · · · · · · · · June 26, 2008 and $50,000 plus

18· · · · · · · · · GST as per July 3, 2008 - both

19· · · · · · · · · to be paid upon receipt."

20· · · · · · · · · So you had agreed to pay 100,000, not

21· ·80,000?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I did not agree.· I don't

23· ·have my signature there.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I'm not going to go

25· ·through that, but that's what the contract says;

·1· ·right?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So where did the 80 come from?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I have decided to reduce it to

·5· ·$80,000.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, you told him you

·7· ·weren't going to pay the 50, but you were only going

·8· ·to pay him an additional 30; right?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And how did that -- did that

11· ·payment get made?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did that happen?· What was

14· ·the deal?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The deal was we have paid two

16· ·cheques, one $50,000 plus GST later on and in July,

17· ·I believe we paid 30,000 plus GST addition.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, Mr. Day testified that you

19· ·told him to issue a new invoice for $84,000, that

20· ·would be $80,000 plus GST, issue that to the Empire

21· ·Roofing and Restoration Inc., and that you -- and

22· ·that he had to meet you at your bank in Toronto or

23· ·Richmond Hill, give you back $50,000, and you then

24· ·gave him a cheque for $84,000.· Did that happen?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not Mr. Day.· That was Mr. Alex

·1· ·Sennett who convinced me that in order to make the

·2· ·Empire Roofing and Restoration legitimate, we have

·3· ·to have some transaction shown in that company.· And

·4· ·if you don't mind, get the Eastwood cheques that you

·5· ·have already paid back and give us -- we pay

·6· ·an $80,000 cheque from Empire Roofing that we just

·7· ·created.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And sorry, that was designed to

·9· ·do what, sir?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The explanation Mr. Sennett gave

11· ·me is that in order to give a transaction happen

12· ·through the Empire Roofing, we have to show some

13· ·kind of payments from that company, so that's why we

14· ·have changed the cheques from Eastwood to Empire

15· ·Roofing.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you meet Mr. Day at the

17· ·bank --

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- to do a cheque transfer?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did he give you a cheque for

22· ·$50,000?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, we went to TD Bank where we

24· ·have made a joint account between me and Mr. Sennett

25· ·and we got one of the cheques on Empire Roofing for

·1· ·$80,000, exchanged it for the Eastwood cheques that

·2· ·we have already paid.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you had to get 50,000 back

·4· ·from Mr. Day?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So did Mr. Day give you a cheque

·7· ·for 50,000?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We got the money from the bank,

·9· ·we gave him an Empire cheque at that time.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did he give you back the

11· ·$50,000?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·He got the money from his

13· ·account, give it to us and we gave the cheque of

14· ·Empire deposit on his account.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He got cash, 50,000 in cash out

16· ·of his account?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember cash or another

18· ·cheque but the bank made the arrangement to change

19· ·the Eastwood cheque to Empire Roofing cheque.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was that Mr. Day's bank?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't believe that.· I think

22· ·it was Mr. Sennett's bank.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And was this joint account you

24· ·had with Mr. Sennett, whose name was it in?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Both.· Mine and Mr. Sennett's.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was it not in the name of Empire

·2· ·Roofing and Restoration?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, but we opened -- he asked

·4· ·me to open a joint account.· The reason is because

·5· ·if we are getting the loan, I would be able to

·6· ·access the account as well as he could.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you say "joint" you

·8· ·mean both of you had signing authority?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What was the name of the account

11· ·holder?· Who held the account?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Empire Roofing.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So it was an account in

14· ·the name of Empire Roofing and you both had signing

15· ·authority?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Access, yeah.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did Mr. Sennett always have

18· ·signing authority?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And who did the work with the

21· ·bank to open the account?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Sennett.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And when did he do that?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At the same time that we signed

25· ·this Empire Roofing situation.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Back in June?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Now, sir, I'm about to

·4· ·move on to a new topic, would this be an appropriate

·5· ·time for a break?

·6· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· It would be a good

·7· ·time.· We'll take 20 minutes, Mr. Registrar.

·8· · · · · · · · · --- RECESS AT 3:17 P.M.

·9· · · · · · · · · --- RESUMED AT 3:38 P.M.

10· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Go ahead, sir.

11· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.

13· · · · · · · · · I think you have in front of you

14· ·volume 5?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you could turn to tab 6

17· ·to change the subject slightly.· This is a letter to

18· ·you from the Canadian Mortgage Rating Service

19· ·limited.

20· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Exhibit number,

21· ·please?

22· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sorry, Exhibit No. 5381.

24· · · · · · · · · It's a letter of July 4th to you from

25· ·the Canadian Mortgage Rating Service and it's

·1· ·advising you that they'd been retained by the Royal

·2· ·Bank to perform a physical inspection of the mall.

·3· · · · · · · · · And this happened once a year; right?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe so, yes.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And it says in the third last

·6· ·paragraph that the inspection was scheduled for

·7· ·Thursday, July 17th, and it says:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Prior to the inspection,

·9· · · · · · · · · please complete the attached

10· · · · · · · · · questionnaire and return to our

11· · · · · · · · · office."

12· · · · · · · · · And you got this; correct, sir?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And there was a questionnaire

15· ·attached to it?· I don't have it right this second

16· ·but I will take you to it before I ask you any

17· ·questions about it, but you do recall there was

18· ·a questionnaire?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, sir, if I could ask you to

21· ·turn to tab 9 -- sorry, tab 5 first, which is

22· ·Exhibit No. 1574 and this is a letter to Mr. Day

23· ·from Carlisle Coatings and Waterproofing dated

24· ·July 3rd, 2008, and they set out Carlisle's

25· ·requirements for the installation to be eligible for

·1· ·a five-year warranty.· And there are certain

·2· ·specific requirements laid out and they state in the

·3· ·last paragraph:

·4· · · · · · · · · · "Carlisle does not provide

·5· · · · · · · · · full time inspection or

·6· · · · · · · · · installation monitoring

·7· · · · · · · · · services.· We recommend

·8· · · · · · · · · an independent inspection

·9· · · · · · · · · company be contracted to provide

10· · · · · · · · · inspection services.· Carlisle

11· · · · · · · · · will provide two (2) site visits

12· · · · · · · · · to monitor the progress of the

13· · · · · · · · · project."

14· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, did you get -- did you see

15· ·this letter?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe so.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you knew that Carlisle had

18· ·strict requirements for the warranty.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were you expecting Mr. Day's

21· ·company to comply?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, if I could have you turn,

24· ·sir, to tab 9 which is a series of e-mails and it's

25· ·Exhibit No. 1512.· And at the bottom of the page we

·1· ·can see that there's an e-mail from you to

·2· ·Mr. Clinckett dated July 7th, in which you write:

·3· · · · · · · · · · "I have discussed with Glen to

·4· · · · · · · · · remove the concrete from the

·5· · · · · · · · · roof and apply a layer of hot

·6· · · · · · · · · rubber on top of it in order to

·7· · · · · · · · · reduce the weight on the roof.

·8· · · · · · · · · However, your advise is required

·9· · · · · · · · · in order to make sure if this

10· · · · · · · · · process is feasible or not.

11· · · · · · · · · Please reply .... (as soon as

12· · · · · · · · · possible)."

13· · · · · · · · · Do you recall sending this e-mail,

14· ·sir?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think so.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was it you were

17· ·proposing?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Originally I was not proposing

19· ·anything.· I was looking for a solution to the roof

20· ·problem and Mr. Clinckett was proposing a thick

21· ·layer of rubber membrane and asphalt on top.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· But what you're

23· ·proposing in the e-mail, sir, is removing the

24· ·concrete from the roof and putting a layer of hot

25· ·rubber on top.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I do not recommend that, under

·2· ·no circumstances, sir.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, I'm reading what you wrote

·4· ·on July 7th --

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I wrote?

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes, you wrote it.· This is your

·7· ·e-mail:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "Good Day John

·9· · · · · · · · · · I have discussed with Glen to

10· · · · · · · · · remove the concrete from the

11· · · · · · · · · roof and apply a layer of hot

12· · · · · · · · · rubber on top of it in order to

13· · · · · · · · · reduce the weight on the roof.

14· · · · · · · · · However, your advise is required

15· · · · · · · · · in order to make sure if this

16· · · · · · · · · process is feasible or not ...

17· · · · · · · · · · Regards

18· · · · · · · · · · Bob Nazarian."

19· · · · · · · · · Do you see that?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you were proposing taking the

22· ·concrete off of the roof?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was suggesting.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Oh, you were suggesting taking

25· ·the concrete off?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Is it possible or not?

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· So can we agree on one

·3· ·thing, by July 7th, 2008 you knew there was a layer

·4· ·of concrete on top of the core slabs?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, by that time, yeah, I knew.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what you were

·7· ·suggesting to Mr. Clinckett or proposing or asking

·8· ·was whether taking the concrete off the roof and

·9· ·putting hot rubber on top of it would work; right?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he responds -- on the top of

12· ·the page and he says -- if we could have it lowered

13· ·a bit -- he responds the same day and says:

14· · · · · · · · · · "I talked with Brian about

15· · · · · · · · · this very issue.· Not a good

16· · · · · · · · · idea.· He said it was

17· · · · · · · · · delaminating the structural

18· · · · · · · · · planks."

19· · · · · · · · · The structural planks are the core

20· ·slabs; right?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He says:

23· · · · · · · · · · "The jackhammering will weaken

24· · · · · · · · · the existing slabs, you don't

25· · · · · · · · · want this.

·1· · · · · · · · · · How do you think by adding

·2· · · · · · · · · work you can get the project

·3· · · · · · · · · done cheaper?"

·4· · · · · · · · · So Mr. Clinckett told you that was

·5· ·a bad idea; right?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then if you turn to tab 12,

·8· ·Exhibit No. 3993, this is -- first of all, a letter

·9· ·from Mr. Day to Mr. England and Mr. Clinckett on

10· ·July the 9th, 2008.· And he writes:

11· · · · · · · · · · "Gentlemen, as was previously

12· · · · · · · · · directed by Mr. Nazarian, Peak

13· · · · · · · · · created a cavity which was

14· · · · · · · · · intended to be part of the

15· · · · · · · · · preparation work for the

16· · · · · · · · · creation of a swale to

17· · · · · · · · · eventually direct water to the

18· · · · · · · · · existing drains."

19· · · · · · · · · Stop there.

20· · · · · · · · · Did you tell Mr. Day to do that?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At that time we were not still

22· ·sure we were talking about Mr. Clinckett's opinion

23· ·that we should be putting 3 inch of asphalt on top.

24· ·So I was telling him that if we are putting, make

25· ·sure that we have a slope towards the drainage so

·1· ·that the water would be guide to the drainage, but

·2· ·we -- at that time we were not concerned about the

·3· ·weight of the asphalt.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, how was he creating this

·5· ·cavity for the swale, for the -- to create the

·6· ·slope?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·So another way, whenever he was

·8· ·laying down the concrete -- the asphalt probably he

·9· ·was going to reduce the thickness of the asphalt

10· ·a certain amount.· Again, we were supposed to get

11· ·the advice from Mr. Clinckett, not that we were

12· ·going to do it without his advice but it's normal

13· ·that in any roof, when they are doing the roof, they

14· ·make some kind of a slope to guide the water.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Where was he create -- back up.

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Around the drainage.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You said you expected him to do

18· ·this in the asphalt; right?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Because the asphalt was going to

21· ·go on top.

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But he's writing to say that as

24· ·he was directed by you, he created a cavity but the

25· ·asphalt isn't there yet; right?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So if he has created a cavity

·3· ·already, it would have had to have been created in

·4· ·the concrete?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It is misunderstanding.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I never asked him to jackhammer

·8· ·and create the cavity on top of the roof.· Remember,

·9· ·that Mr. John Clinckett mentioned that no jackhammer

10· ·on top of the roof.· It is not a good idea.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.· So Mr. Day is wrong when

12· ·he says that you told to him create a cavity in the

13· ·concrete?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then he says:

18· · · · · · · · · · "As per my conversation with

19· · · · · · · · · Brian England yesterday, July

20· · · · · · · · · 08, 2008, I was advised to

21· · · · · · · · · temporarily fill the cavity with

22· · · · · · · · · 2 inch Styrofoam, and then apply

23· · · · · · · · · a Blueskin membrane to stop

24· · · · · · · · · further leaking while

25· · · · · · · · · construction and repairs remain

·1· · · · · · · · · ongoing."

·2· · · · · · · · · Now, did you know anything about

·3· ·that?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, it's a ridiculous situation.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to the third

·6· ·page of this exhibit, sir, the page that ends -235,

·7· ·you can see that there is a signing line for this

·8· ·change order and the change order is, as it says:

·9· · · · · · · · · · "Temporarily fill the

10· · · · · · · · · drainage/swale cavity of 24

11· · · · · · · · · existing drains with 2 inch

12· · · · · · · · · Styrofoam, and then apply

13· · · · · · · · · a Blueskin membrane to stop

14· · · · · · · · · further leaking while

15· · · · · · · · · construction and repairs remain

16· · · · · · · · · ongoing."

17· · · · · · · · · And that's been signed by Mr. Day on

18· ·July 9th and by Mr. England on behalf of

19· ·Eastwood Mall on July 10th -- and if we have the

20· ·document come up, please -- Mr. England wrote:

21· · · · · · · · · · "As per Bob Nazarian's

22· · · · · · · · · instructions Glen Day/Bob in

23· · · · · · · · · Richmond Hill office."

24· · · · · · · · · So, Mr. England says he signed this

25· ·contract as per your instructions received from you

·1· ·and Mr. Day when you were both in your office in

·2· ·Richmond Hill; is that true?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.· Do you need an explanation?

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Certainly.

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. England, as later I'm sure

·6· ·is going to be opened, he was associated with

·7· ·Glen Day and had benefit to do this roof, the way

·8· ·they wanted.· I would have -- as a builder/developer

·9· ·I would never, ever accept filling a cavity with

10· ·Styrofoam and tape it, that's unheard of.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Even temporarily?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Even temporarily.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If I could have you turn

14· ·to tab 14, sir.· This is Exhibit No. 1340.· This is

15· ·a letter from Mr. Fabris to Mr. Clinckett on

16· ·July 10th, 2008 and Mr. Fabris writes:

17· · · · · · · · · · "There is some concern ..."

18· · · · · · · · · First of all he says:

19· · · · · · · · · · "I have recently had the

20· · · · · · · · · opportunity of speaking with

21· · · · · · · · · Mr. Nazarian.

22· · · · · · · · · · There is some concern over the

23· · · · · · · · · warranty that is to be provided

24· · · · · · · · · on the roof, given that three

25· · · · · · · · · inches of asphalt must be added

·1· · · · · · · · · onto the rubber membrane.

·2· · · · · · · · · · You have provided me (through

·3· · · · · · · · · Brian England) with weight

·4· · · · · · · · · calculations, however that does

·5· · · · · · · · · not constitute a written

·6· · · · · · · · · guarantee that the roof can

·7· · · · · · · · · maintain that type of weight.

·8· · · · · · · · · · I would (ask) you to provide

·9· · · · · · · · · me in writing, within three days

10· · · · · · · · · from the date of this letter

11· · · · · · · · · a confirmation that the

12· · · · · · · · · structure can support the added

13· · · · · · · · · weight without the removal of

14· · · · · · · · · any additional concrete."

15· · · · · · · · · And he concludes by saying:

16· · · · · · · · · · "As it stands we have some

17· · · · · · · · · different opinions as to whether

18· · · · · · · · · or not the structure can

19· · · · · · · · · maintain the additional weight."

20· · · · · · · · · And you knew he was going to send

21· ·this letter?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this was the second time he

24· ·wrote asking about this; right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 15,

·2· ·Exhibit No. 804, we have Mr. Clinckett's response on

·3· ·July 11th.· And Mr. Clinckett writes in the third

·4· ·paragraph:

·5· · · · · · · · · · "We assumed from the drawings

·6· · · · · · · · · and the existing deck plan

·7· · · · · · · · · delivered by Mr. England one

·8· · · · · · · · · would be able to decipher the

·9· · · · · · · · · loading capacity of the roof,

10· · · · · · · · · from the loading summary (about

11· · · · · · · · · four letter sheets) prepared by

12· · · · · · · · · a registered Professional

13· · · · · · · · · Engineer in the province of

14· · · · · · · · · Ontario and the shop drawings

15· · · · · · · · · outlining the grid lines."

16· · · · · · · · · And in the second-last paragraph he

17· ·writes:

18· · · · · · · · · · "We refer to your comment in

19· · · · · · · · · paragraph six '... we have some

20· · · · · · · · · different opinions as to whether

21· · · · · · · · · or not the structure can

22· · · · · · · · · maintain the additional weight.'

23· · · · · · · · · We were unaware you were

24· · · · · · · · · an engineer as well, but as so

25· · · · · · · · · it should not be an issue for

·1· · · · · · · · · you to provide this letter."

·2· · · · · · · · · Sir, did you read this letter?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you understand it?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It is insulting.· It is

·6· ·insulting, where Mr. Clinckett is insulting

·7· ·Mr. Rene's Fabris' intelligence.· Mr. Fabris is

·8· ·simply asking a guarantee that that would work.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you didn't get the

10· ·guarantee?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So -- and the letter you say is

13· ·insulting.· It is also difficult to understand;

14· ·right?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you did understand there was

17· ·no guarantee?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you know -- just to

20· ·change the subject slightly, that on July 14, that

21· ·is just a few days after Mr. Clinckett sent this

22· ·letter, that Mr. Yakimov was to meet with

23· ·Mr. Elliott of ELNOS?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Yakimov, in reality worked

25· ·only a few months for our company and those three

·1· ·months he was only instructed to build an office,

·2· ·a store for our management and as well as prepare

·3· ·a fire retrofit for the Fire Department that was

·4· ·asked for, since he was working for the Fire

·5· ·Department, as well as a volunteer fire fighter.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· I asked you

·7· ·a different question, sir: Did you know that

·8· ·Mr. Yakimov was to meet with Mr. Elliott of ELNOS on

·9· ·14th July?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, he -- we was not instructed.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. Yakimov had been hired

12· ·by the mall; correct?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·In sometimes, yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When was he hired?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know exact date again,

16· ·I'm sorry, but he was hired for some different

17· ·subject and not for the instruction, not for the

18· ·loan or any other purpose.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was he hired in order to

20· ·investigate the roof and see what could be done to

21· ·fix it?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Absolutely not.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Never?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Never.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you know that he was going

·1· ·to meet with Mr. Elliott?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No?· Because Mr. Yakimov has

·4· ·testified that he met with Mr. Elliott on 14th July

·5· ·about Eastwood's application for a grant and that

·6· ·you had told him to provide some documents to

·7· ·Mr. Elliott to show that the repair efforts were

·8· ·serious; any truth to that?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't think so.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How can you be sure?· Did you

11· ·tell him to meet with Mr. Elliott?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't think so.· I honestly

13· ·don't believe that he was in a position to talk on

14· ·behalf of the company with ELNOS.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's a different question.

16· · · · · · · · · Did you tell him to meet with

17· ·Mr. Elliott?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So if you did not tell him to

20· ·meet with Mr. Elliott, you did not give him any

21· ·documents to show Mr. Elliott?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, if you could turn to, in

24· ·volume 6, tab 36.

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·36?

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·36.· Just a second.· Sorry,

·2· ·tab 35.· And it's Exhibit?

·3· · · · · · · · · MS. EFFENDI:· Exhibit No. 226.

·4· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Exhibit No. 226.· Now, ignoring

·6· ·the first page, and moving on to the second, and the

·7· ·third page, rather, this is -- and I'm going to come

·8· ·back to this in a moment -- but this is a document

·9· ·which is entitled "Roof Repair Contract for

10· ·Algo Centre."

11· · · · · · · · · And if you go through it, sir, it's

12· ·a series of documents called "Invoice" and it

13· ·concludes on page -010 with -- page ending -010 --

14· ·thank you -- with a signature of both you and

15· ·Mr. Sennett and a witness signature of your son; do

16· ·you see that?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, now, Mr. Yakimov testified

19· ·that he showed these documents to Mr. Elliott when

20· ·he met with him on 14th July.

21· · · · · · · · · Do you know anything about that?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·How could it be that he

23· ·presented 14th of July when the bill is showing that

24· ·we have signed on 18th of August?

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, that's a very good

·1· ·question.· But my first question, sir -- I hadn't

·2· ·asked you that one.· My first question is: Did you

·3· ·know anything about him giving them these documents?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.· No, sir.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And my second question

·6· ·is: You'll agree with me he could not have shown

·7· ·I -- he could not have shown Mr. Elliott these

·8· ·documents on July --

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- 14th if they were not created

11· ·until August 18th?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And I'm going to ask you more

14· ·questions about this in a moment, but were these

15· ·documents signed on August 18th?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· We'll come back to that.

18· ·Now, if you could turn to the next tab, tab 36 of

19· ·volume 6 which is Exhibit No. 13-114.

20· · · · · · · · · MS. EFFENDI:· No, it is Exhibit No.

21· ·725.

22· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Volume 6 is bedeviled,

23· ·Mr. Commissioner.· I will constantly get the

24· ·exhibits wrong in volume 6.· Thankfully I have

25· ·Ms. Effendi to assist.

·1· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, this is a letter dated

·3· ·September 10, 2008 to Mr. Fabris from Mr. Elliott at

·4· ·ELNOS and in the fourth paragraph Mr. Elliott wrote:

·5· · · · · · · · · · "A subsequent meeting ..."

·6· · · · · · · · · That is subsequent to the meeting on

·7· ·May 30th:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "... was held on July

·9· · · · · · · · · 14th with Demitri Yakimov as

10· · · · · · · · · Eastwood's 'Agent' in this

11· · · · · · · · · matter and the new mall manager,

12· · · · · · · · · at which time they asked for

13· · · · · · · · · an update on the application.

14· · · · · · · · · I explained to Mr. Yakimov the

15· · · · · · · · · items discussed at the first

16· · · · · · · · · meeting and indicated that

17· · · · · · · · · nothing had yet been received by

18· · · · · · · · · ELNOS."

19· · · · · · · · · And, sir, I take it from your

20· ·evidence today you knew nothing about this?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not at all.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did Mr. Yakimov tell you

23· ·anything about it?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Yakimov, I know that he

25· ·was -- sorry to say it -- a con-artist, who worked

·1· ·only for a few months for our company.· He virtually

·2· ·did not much of good, beside damaging the company

·3· ·and gathering the information from all our previous

·4· ·engineers and stating that was his opinion.· It was

·5· ·not true at all.· Mr. Yakimov was going into

·6· ·a divorce situation and was begging me for the job

·7· ·to continue, but we were not satisfied with his job.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Nazarian, I didn't ask you

·9· ·to describe Mr. Yakimov, nor did I ask you to defame

10· ·him.· I asked you if --

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I apologize.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I asked you if he reported to

13· ·you.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you remember me asking you

16· ·that question?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then why did you take the

19· ·opportunity to say bad things about Mr. Yakimov?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, because I -- from the

21· ·previous statement I have heard that.· I apologize,

22· ·but that was a true statement.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·May I suggest to you, sir, you

24· ·confine yourself to answering my questions.

25· ·Mr. Yakimov isn't here and he can't defend himself;

·1· ·do you understand that?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Did Mr. Yakimov

·4· ·report to you?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· If we go back to

·7· ·volume 5, sir, if you could turn up tab 18.· And

·8· ·it's Exhibit No. 1095.· This is an e-mail from

·9· ·Mr. Gagne, from Dan Gagne to you dated July 16th,

10· ·2008 and Mr. Gagne is a professional engineer in

11· ·Sudbury; right?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he is writing to you on

14· ·16th July and saying:

15· · · · · · · · · · "As discussed on the phone,

16· · · · · · · · · please forward all relevant

17· · · · · · · · · as-built information you may

18· · · · · · · · · have with respect to the mall

19· · · · · · · · · construction including drawings,

20· · · · · · · · · specifications, design data,

21· · · · · · · · · geotechnical reports, et cetera.

22· · · · · · · · · · I will review the package.

23· · · · · · · · · I will speak to John your

24· · · · · · · · · architect, and then I will

25· · · · · · · · · schedule a site visit.

·1· · · · · · · · · · It is my understanding that

·2· · · · · · · · · the existing roof over the mall

·3· · · · · · · · · is used as a parking deck.· The

·4· · · · · · · · · deck is presently leaking at

·5· · · · · · · · · several areas and it is your

·6· · · · · · · · · preference to install a roof

·7· · · · · · · · · over the parking deck as opposed

·8· · · · · · · · · to restoring the existing deck

·9· · · · · · · · · with a new membrane.

10· · · · · · · · · · We will review the existing

11· · · · · · · · · structural columns and footings

12· · · · · · · · · and we will require information

13· · · · · · · · · on the existing foundation soils

14· · · · · · · · · all in order to determine if the

15· · · · · · · · · installation of an additional

16· · · · · · · · · roof is feasible."

17· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, what's this about?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·This was a consultation with

19· ·this gentleman in Sudbury, regarding the possibility

20· ·of putting another roof on top of the Algo Mall,

21· ·rather than putting a membrane.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Why are you consulting another

23· ·engineer?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·To see if there is a possibility

25· ·to do a different way of sealing the leaks.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, on July 16th you had

·2· ·Mr. Day on the roof doing work; right?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you had paid him

·5· ·$80,000-some?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And the work he was doing was

·8· ·preparing the roof for the application of

·9· ·a membrane; right?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You also had Mr. Holford with

12· ·whom you'd been consulting?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And he's an engineer?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you'd asked him to do --

17· ·give you some ideas for effecting a permanent

18· ·repair?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You had also been dealing with

21· ·Mr. Clinckett who you thought was an engineer;

22· ·right?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you had the contract with

25· ·Empire Roofing that you'd signed on June 16th.· What

·1· ·can you tell me that you thought Mr. Gagne was able

·2· ·to add to this?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, Mr. Gagne was going to work

·4· ·in cooperation with Mr. Clinckett.· As you have seen

·5· ·here, clearly, saying that as your engineer,

·6· ·Mr. Clinckett.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What about Mr. Holford?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Holford was out of picture

·9· ·because his quotation was $17 million, but his

10· ·suggestion was very useful by saying that the weight

11· ·is not acceptable.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He had told you that the

13· ·weight -- that the roof would not bear the asphalt;

14· ·right?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you decided to get another

17· ·engineer in?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I decided to get advice from

19· ·a third engineer in conjunction with John Clinckett

20· ·to see whether they can work some conclusion, even

21· ·though the job was started.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· If I could have you

23· ·turn to tab 22, sir.· Sorry, this is Exhibit No.

24· ·1259.· And this is the questionnaire that you were

25· ·provided with by the Canadian Mortgage Rating

·1· ·Service Limited.· We looked at that just a little

·2· ·while ago, and the questionnaire was in relation to

·3· ·the inspection that was going to take place on

·4· ·17th July; do you remember that?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And there are various questions

·7· ·asked on the front page about the property, the

·8· ·square footage, the number of units.· Did you fill

·9· ·this in, sir?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know whether I filled it

11· ·up or my son.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Turn to the next page.· The

13· ·questionnaire says:

14· · · · · · · · · · "Describe in detail, what

15· · · · · · · · · repairs, replacements or

16· · · · · · · · · improvements have been or will

17· · · · · · · · · be made this year.· Please

18· · · · · · · · · provide a dollar estimate as

19· · · · · · · · · well."

20· · · · · · · · · And in response the answer was given:

21· · · · · · · · · · "1.· We are in desperate need

22· · · · · · · · · of $3 million dollars renovation

23· · · · · · · · · mainly the roof, interior of the

24· · · · · · · · · Mall, and the parking lot.

25· · · · · · · · · Without this capital, we will

·1· · · · · · · · · lose our major tenants, namely:

·2· · · · · · · · · Zellers, The Library of

·3· · · · · · · · · Elliot Lake & the Bank of Nova

·4· · · · · · · · · Scotia and others."

·5· · · · · · · · · Did you write that?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not me, but I agree about it

·7· ·100 per cent.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you didn't write it?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not me.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you think it was your son,

11· ·Levon?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Probably.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And were you okay with providing

14· ·this information to the bank?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And where did you get the figure

17· ·$3 million?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·If we take under consideration

19· ·finishing off the roof and complete renovation of

20· ·the Centre, it would cost $3 million.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Had you priced that out?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Kind of.· Previously we have

23· ·spoken with different people and we got that

24· ·information including myself, which I know a little

25· ·bit about the construction.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So did you know this was being

·2· ·sent to the bank this questionnaire?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Whether it would be accepted or

·4· ·not, I put the figures because I feel that's

·5· ·a correct information.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you -- so you knew that this

·7· ·was going to go to the bank?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you were fine with that?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you go to the bottom of

12· ·the page under the heading "Additional comments,"

13· ·the answer that's provided is:

14· · · · · · · · · · "The Library of Elliot Lake

15· · · · · · · · · presently located in the mall,

16· · · · · · · · · 8,500 S.F. would like to expand

17· · · · · · · · · to 10,000 S.F. with higher rent.

18· · · · · · · · · Their major condition is the

19· · · · · · · · · repair of the roof immediately

20· · · · · · · · · or they would move out

21· · · · · · · · · completely and vacate.

22· · · · · · · · · · Zellers, our major tenant

23· · · · · · · · · (over 45,000 S.F.) has

24· · · · · · · · · threatened to move out if the

25· · · · · · · · · roof is not repaired

·1· · · · · · · · · immediately.

·2· · · · · · · · · · We do not have the funds to

·3· · · · · · · · · repair the roof, therefore we

·4· · · · · · · · · have asked Mr. Jim Paterson/the

·5· · · · · · · · · Manager of RBC and so far we

·6· · · · · · · · · have been ignored.

·7· · · · · · · · · · Also, according to our

·8· · · · · · · · · mortgage documents RBC owes us

·9· · · · · · · · · $300,000 security deposit (upon

10· · · · · · · · · signing the mortgage they have

11· · · · · · · · · held $150,000 and $5,000 per

12· · · · · · · · · month for 30 months for the

13· · · · · · · · · total of $300,000) and our

14· · · · · · · · · demand to retrieve the said

15· · · · · · · · · deposit has been ignored.

16· · · · · · · · · · This is to inform you that we

17· · · · · · · · · are in verge of losing the Mall

18· · · · · · · · · if we do not receive sufficient

19· · · · · · · · · funds for the repairs and

20· · · · · · · · · maintenance of the Mall."

21· · · · · · · · · Did you write that, sir?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe I had dictated this

23· ·and my wife wrote.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, again, you were fine with it

25· ·going to the bank?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Of course.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did you think this

·3· ·would achieve when it went to the bank?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was -- I was -- as

·5· ·I mentioned, on the document, I was desperate to get

·6· ·some funds to put in the bank -- in the mall.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· So, sir, did you

·8· ·receive a telephone call from Henri Laroue on July

·9· ·15th or 16th?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know what this --

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Where she told you about leaks

12· ·in the mall?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I received so many phone calls

14· ·that there are leaks in the mall.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, I think you probably do

16· ·remember this one, because this is the one where, on

17· ·the evidence we've heard so far, she phoned you up,

18· ·told you the mall was leaking very badly -- I'll

19· ·take you to a document --

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sure.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- in a minute, but there is no

22· ·document about -- this is what she testified to --

23· ·she testified she phoned you up, told you the mall

24· ·was leaking very badly and you immediately got in

25· ·your car and drove up to Elliot Lake and got there

·1· ·and found out that yes, it was leaking very, very

·2· ·badly, and the next day or two you fired Mr. Day; do

·3· ·you remember that?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Do you remember the phone call

·6· ·now?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That was a disaster, yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So she phoned you.· What did she

·9· ·tell you?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·She told me that the mall is in

11· ·a fiasco.· It is pouring the water, not leaking, and

12· ·what Mr. Day has done and with Brian England is

13· ·a disaster.· Please come up right away.· It is very,

14· ·very bad shape.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you go up that day?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Immediately.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if I could take you to

18· ·tab 27, sir, of volume 5, Exhibit No. 95.· This is

19· ·various documents from Mr. Clinckett's file and if

20· ·you go to page -- the fourth page in.· That's it.

21· ·No you've missed -- that's it, the bottom of the

22· ·page, on Wednesday July 16th, the same day or the

23· ·day after you drove up, I'm not sure, from -- e-mail

24· ·from Mr. Holford to Mr. Sennett, which says:

25· · · · · · · · · · "Bob, I've been reviewing the

·1· ·OBC requirements for loading on

·2· ·the roof slab of the Algo Mall

·3· ·in Elliot Lake in conjunction

·4· ·with the original Coreslab shop

·5· ·drawings and design tables.

·6· ·I have been working on this with

·7· ·Ed Karaluk of Coreslab

·8· ·Structures.· After our review

·9· ·and discussions both Coreslab

10· ·and Kleinfeldt are of the

11· ·opinion that the existing

12· ·structure is not capable of

13· ·carrying the additional loading

14· ·of the proposed waterproofing

15· ·membrane and asphalt overlay.

16· · ·If required we can look into

17· ·alternative solutions however,

18· ·based on my experience they will

19· ·either be more costly or less

20· ·effective, and possibly both.

21· · ·Let me know how you would like

22· ·us to proceed and we will begin

23· ·working on developing

24· ·alternative solutions."

25· ·Now, did you see this, sir?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And it's sent to Mr. Sennett.

·3· ·Mr. Sennett testified that he would receive emails

·4· ·that were intended for you and then send them on to

·5· ·you.· Was that happening?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·As I said, Mr. Sennett was

·7· ·giving a permission to himself to present as a CEO

·8· ·of the company, even though he had no position in

·9· ·the company and asking documents to receive by him.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you ask Mr. Sennett to have

11· ·people send to him, e-mails that were designed to be

12· ·read by you?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I didn't make that remarks,

14· ·since he was a very, very close friend with me.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sorry, again, I'm not

16· ·communicating well.· Let me try again: Mr. Sennett

17· ·said that this was your idea, that you had asked him

18· ·to tell people who were sending emails to you, to

19· ·send them to Mr. Sennett and he would then pass them

20· ·on to you; did you tell Mr. Mr. Sennett that?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's not true.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·That's not true.· Okay.· In any

23· ·event, you read this one?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And it was passed on to

·1· ·Mr. Clinckett, as we can see.· So, on July 16th

·2· ·you'd been told by Mr. Holford that the roof would

·3· ·not bear the load of the asphalt; right?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And I take it you got this on or

·6· ·about the same day it was sent?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, do you remember was this --

·9· ·did you get this e-mail from Mr. Holford before or

10· ·after you got the call from Ms. Laroue about the --

11· ·and you jumped into your car to go up to

12· ·Elliot Lake?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, I don't remember.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· When you drove up to

15· ·Elliot Lake, did you get there that evening?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you meet --

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·In the afternoon.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- in Mr. Fabris' office that

20· ·night?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I called on the way, Mr. Fabris

22· ·meet me in the mall.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you do that?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Where did you meet him in the

·1· ·mall?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I met him on the roof.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was there anybody else there?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, we saw the roof -- may I?

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Certainly.

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We saw the roof flat with lots

·7· ·of blue tape round and nothing showing any kind of

·8· ·damage.· And --

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Go ahead.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And at that time, Mr. Day came

11· ·close to us and he presented a bill of $210,000, in

12· ·addition.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·A bill?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, a bill to be paid and my

15· ·answer to him was, "It's going to be raining tonight

16· ·and if it doesn't leak tomorrow morning you're going

17· ·to get your money."

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was his response?

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And he left.· He left.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you then have a meeting in

21· ·Mr. Fabris' office that day?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That day?· No, the next day.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At 6 o'clock in the morning

25· ·I was down in the lobby of the hotel, as well as

·1· ·Mr. Fabris.· We met each other.· The mall was

·2· ·a fiasco.· It was disaster.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was it raining?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It rained the night before and

·5· ·it was raining.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It was a shower all over the

·8· ·mall, so I was so upset that there was a big chance

·9· ·that I could have heart attack.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who else was there at that time?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was with Mr. Fabris, Brian

12· ·England and Glen Day.· Mr. Fabris asked me to sit

13· ·down in front of the Zellers.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And I was so upset that

16· ·I couldn't understand.· I said, "What have you done?

17· ·What you guys done?"· Especially at the same day Ray

18· ·LeBlanc approached me and he says, "Bob, I have

19· ·overheard ..."

20· · · · · · · · · May I continue?

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Certainly.

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·(Reading):

23· · · · · · · · · · "Bob, I have overheard

24· · · · · · · · · conversation between Brian

25· · · · · · · · · England and Glen Day that Glen

·1· · · · · · · · · Day told me if I receive that

·2· · · · · · · · · complete money, I will buy you

·3· · · · · · · · · a BMW motorcycle."

·4· · · · · · · · · And, incidentally, a week before

·5· ·Brian England came to my house, and he asked me for

·6· ·a favour, "Take me to the motorcycle dealer, BMW

·7· ·motorcycle dealer in -- close to downtown."· And

·8· ·I did, but I didn't know at that time why he wants

·9· ·to see it.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Describe what happened

11· ·that morning.

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That morning was a disaster.· So

13· ·I called both of them and I say, "Shame on you guys.

14· ·You have destroyed my mall.· I want you right now to

15· ·get out of my property immediately."

16· · · · · · · · · At that time Glen Day took his

17· ·aboriginal helpers and they walked away with our

18· ·tools.· The main tool was two jackhammers which it

19· ·was worth close to $2 or $3,000.· And the same

20· ·thing, I called Brian England and I said "I should

21· ·have -- I should have fired you immediately but I'm

22· ·not going to do that.· I want you to still work but

23· ·no longer as a manager, but simply as a -- as

24· ·a leasing manager," which I know that he was

25· ·discussing with several potential tenant.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Where were you when you told

·2· ·this to Mr. Day and Mr. England?· Where were you?

·3· ·Were you inside the mall, were you in your office?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Inside the mall in front of the

·5· ·Zellers.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Right in the public area

·7· ·of the mall?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what time of the day was it?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It was about 6 o'clock, 6:30 in

11· ·the morning.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And who else was there?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. René Fabris, myself, and

14· ·Glen Day and Brian England.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you then have

16· ·a meeting in Mr. Fabris' office?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who was at the meeting at

19· ·Mr. Fabris' office?

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The same -- it was in front of

21· ·Mr. Fabris' office.· Again, the same crew of four:

22· ·Myself, Glen Day and Brian England.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And was Mr. Sennett there?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, Mr. Sennett was there, as

25· ·well.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you say it was in front of

·2· ·Mr. Fabris' office, outside --

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, no, in the office.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·In the office.· And that was

·5· ·later on that day?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry, Mr. Sennett was present

·7· ·always.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was he there at 6 o'clock in the

·9· ·morning as well?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, yes.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And then did you all immediately

12· ·go over to Mr. Fabris' office?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was discussed in

15· ·Mr. Fabris' office?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We discussed of what happened

17· ·and we don't want your presence in the mall.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Right.

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And Mr. Glen Day, as I said,

20· ·took his tools and so on, including ours and walked

21· ·away.· Later on we find out that all the tools was

22· ·bought with our money, by Mr. Brian England, and we

23· ·received the bills later on when they were gone.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Uh-hmm.· And now I wonder if you

25· ·could turn to tab 19, Exhibit No. 1495.

·1· · · · · · · · · MR. FULTON:· Mr. Commissioner, I see

·2· ·that Mr. Nazarian is looking tired.· Maybe we can

·3· ·take a five-minute break?

·4· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· Five minutes?

·5· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sure.

·6· · · · · · · · · --- RECESS AT 4:20 P.M.

·7· · · · · · · · · --- RESUMED AT 4:30 P.M.

·8· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, sir, yes.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·In the break, we -- I received

11· ·a phone call, Mr. -- from Mr. Fabris, who made

12· ·a correction on a mistake that we have stated.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, no, no, no, no, sir, we

14· ·don't have formal rules of evidence here, but I ask

15· ·the questions; you give the evidence on oath.

16· · · · · · · · · If you start relaying information you

17· ·receive on the phone from somebody else and entering

18· ·it into the record, we'll have to ask the

19· ·Commissioner for a ruling, but in my submission it's

20· ·not proper.

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry.· It's a date different

22· ·that I'm trying to correct.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well --

24· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· It doesn't matter,

25· ·sir.· I won't hear from you at this point unless

·1· ·I hear full submissions from your lawyer and from

·2· ·Commission Counsel.· For the moment, answer

·3· ·Mr. Doody's questions.

·4· · · · · · · · · BY MR. DOODY:

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, sir, what you have in front

·6· ·of you is a memo that Mr. Fabris dictated to his

·7· ·assistant, Stephanie, and it's dated July 22nd and

·8· ·he wrote:

·9· · · · · · · · · · "I'd like you to docket for

10· · · · · · · · · Wednesday July 16, 2008 meeting

11· · · · · · · · · with Alexande Sinnett ?? Alex

12· · · · · · · · · Ansinett??· Glen Day, Brian

13· · · · · · · · · England and Bob Nazarian.

14· · · · · · · · · · The meeting was held at the

15· · · · · · · · · office to discuss the roof.· The

16· · · · · · · · · issue of payments were discussed

17· · · · · · · · · as well as remedial work.· There

18· · · · · · · · · was a concern expressed over the

19· · · · · · · · · leaking roof and the continuing

20· · · · · · · · · leakage, Brian England and

21· · · · · · · · · Glen Day assured Mr. Nazarian

22· · · · · · · · · that the roof was not leaking

23· · · · · · · · · any more, and the leaks were

24· · · · · · · · · minmimized.· A suggestion was

25· · · · · · · · · made to attend on the roof at

·1· · · · · · · · · 7.30 on Thursday morning to

·2· · · · · · · · · inspect and see what was going

·3· · · · · · · · · on.· Furthermore, discussions

·4· · · · · · · · · were had concerning John

·5· · · · · · · · · Clinckett and the 3 inches of

·6· · · · · · · · · asphalt.· The conclusion arrived

·7· · · · · · · · · at the meeting was that the roof

·8· · · · · · · · · could probably not hold that

·9· · · · · · · · · much weight as it was nearing

10· · · · · · · · · capacity.· Also apparently Mr.

11· · · · · · · · · Clinckett has a report from

12· · · · · · · · · Halso Engineering of a few years

13· · · · · · · · · ago, and a roof contract for

14· · · · · · · · · $800,000."

15· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, does this refresh your

16· ·memory as to what -- when you held the meeting at

17· ·Mr. Fabris' office and what was discussed?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's exactly what I wanted to

19· ·explain.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It's self explanatory.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What can you tell me?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That the meeting that we had in

24· ·Mr. Fabris' office, it was one day before the

25· ·disaster happened in the mall, not after.· That's

·1· ·all.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, how was it that you came to

·3· ·drive up to Elliot Lake?· Was it because of the

·4· ·phone call from Ms. Laroue or some other reason?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, for the concern of phone

·6· ·call, yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, she phoned you and told you

·8· ·it was leaking.· You drove up and you went to

·9· ·Mr. Fabris' office.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is what I've read to

12· ·you, did that happen at the meeting?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Precisely.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So Mr. England and Mr. Day told

15· ·you the roof was not leaking anymore?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not leaking and --

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And somebody also said at the

18· ·meeting that Mr. Clinckett had a report from

19· ·an engineering company described as "Halso

20· ·Engineering" in Mr. Fabris' note of a few years ago;

21· ·do you recall that being said at the meeting?

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did ask you to see it?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, it was not available at that

25· ·time.· It was just probably -- I'm not sure.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you ask to see it?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So you don't know whether it was

·4· ·available?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was -- I was going with their

·6· ·words, please.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was accepting their words.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·What were you told the report

10· ·said?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The report says that it would

12· ·hold that much weight.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It would or it would not?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Would.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Would.· Okay.· And did you --

16· ·and why did you not ask to see it?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believed him.· If an engineer

18· ·is saying something, there is no reason I doubt.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Then it goes on to say:

20· · · · · · · · · · "Mr. Nazarian later spoke

21· · · · · · · · · about the request from ELNOS for

22· · · · · · · · · funding which Demitri was

23· · · · · · · · · supposed to proceed with ..."

24· · · · · · · · · Do you recall that?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I never appoint Mr. Demitri to

·1· ·talk with ELNOS, as far as I'm concerned with that

·2· ·subject.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Well, Mr. Fabris wrote that you

·4· ·later spoke about the request from ELNOS for

·5· ·funding, which Demitri was supposed to proceed with.

·6· ·Did you speak to Mr. Fabris about that?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Regarding presenting?

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·About anything about the request

·9· ·from ELNOS for funding, which Dimitri was supposed

10· ·to proceed with.· Did you speak to Mr. Fabris about

11· ·that?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think I speak in regard of

13· ·Mr. Sennett to be present, I think.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Can you explain why Mr. Fabris

15· ·would have written in his file that you -- that you

16· ·spoke about Demitri being supposed to proceed with

17· ·that application?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't know.· I don't remember

19· ·what we discussed exactly, I'm sorry.· I apologize.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you're certain you never

21· ·asked Mr. Yakimov --

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not personally ...

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Can I finish the sentence?· You

24· ·never asked Mr. Yakimov to deal with ELNOS --

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- right?· Is that right?

·2· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you ask anyone else, to ask

·4· ·Mr. Yakimov to deal with ELNOS?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· So, then if you

·7· ·could turn the page, sir, in this same document,

·8· ·Exhibit No. 1495, and you can see that it says --

·9· ·again it is a memo to the file and to Mr. Fabris'

10· ·assistant:

11· · · · · · · · · · "On July 17, 2008 I attended

12· · · · · · · · · at 7:15 a.m. at the mall.

13· · · · · · · · · I walked through the mall.

14· · · · · · · · · There was a large enormous leak

15· · · · · · · · · of water near Starlight Cafe.

16· · · · · · · · · I attended near the Zellers

17· · · · · · · · · store and could hear water

18· · · · · · · · · running in the store, however

19· · · · · · · · · the premises were locked.· On my

20· · · · · · · · · return through the hallway there

21· · · · · · · · · were two further leaks, one

22· · · · · · · · · across from the Investors Group

23· · · · · · · · · office and one a little further

24· · · · · · · · · down.· I met Glen Day and his

25· · · · · · · · · foreman Robert in the lobby, and

·1· · · · · · · · · began discussing the matter.

·2· · · · · · · · · Mr. Nazarian showed up at

·3· · · · · · · · · 7:30 with Dimitri."

·4· · · · · · · · · Stop there.· Did all of this happen

·5· ·as is described there, sir?

·6· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I think it was with Mr. Sennett

·7· ·rather than Mr. Demitri.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay, so that when Mr. Fabris

·9· ·writes Demitri, he's wrong; it should have been

10· ·Mr. Sennett?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I believe that should be

12· ·Mr. Sennett.· I could be wrong, however.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Was Mr. Yakimov doing work for

14· ·you at that time?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure.· Mr. Yakimov

16· ·worked only for a short period of time.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It goes on to say:

18· · · · · · · · · · "We proceeded to view the

19· · · · · · · · · leaks then went to Zellers.· The

20· · · · · · · · · Zellers store was a complete

21· · · · · · · · · disaster.· On every main flex

22· · · · · · · · · joint buckets were strewn

23· · · · · · · · · through the building and copious

24· · · · · · · · · amounts of watering were

25· · · · · · · · · entering.· As we inspected the

·1· ·premises, one of the ladies

·2· ·working at Zellers asked us to

·3· ·go into Receiving and view the

·4· ·area.· We went in, it was

·5· ·a disaster.· The previous night

·6· ·Brian had ensured Mr. Nazarian

·7· ·that the leaks had been

·8· ·curtailed and there were no

·9· ·further leaks, just minor.

10· ·Obviously the situation is very

11· ·severe.· Mr. Nazarian asked Mr.

12· ·Day what he had done to date.

13· ·Mr. Day indicated that he was

14· ·just trying to patch up and that

15· ·in any event for the four weeks

16· ·work up to date, it would

17· ·probably all have to be ripped

18· ·out and replaced prior to

19· ·putting on the membrane.· At

20· ·that point in time the meeting

21· ·broke up and we proceeded our

22· ·separate ways.· Mr. Day was

23· ·effectively "laid off'."

24· ·Is that accurate, sir?

25· ·A.· ·Yes, sir.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·From that point on, who decided

·2· ·what technical decisions were being made about the

·3· ·roof?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Me.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·From that point on, I understand

·6· ·all work on the roof was performed by mall employees

·7· ·and you; right?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now, I showed you yesterday 1991

10· ·Trow Report from Trow Engineers in 1991 which is

11· ·Exhibit No. 35, and you said you'd never seen it.

12· · · · · · · · · Ms. Laroue testified that in June or

13· ·July, 2008 --

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Which exhibition number?

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·This is not a document; this is

16· ·what she testified to.

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, so sorry.

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·She testified, in June or July,

19· ·2008, Mr. England read part of the 1991 Trow Report

20· ·to her, and that at some point after that she

21· ·mentioned it to you -- that is the Trow Report --

22· ·and you told her that that was what was kept by you

23· ·by Retirement Living; do you recall that?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Right.· Right.· Yes.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And when she mentioned it to

·1· ·you, did she say she'd read it or had it read to her

·2· ·by Mr. England?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember after that what

·4· ·we discussed, but I remember that I said Retirement

·5· ·has concealed those documents from me.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did she tell you that she'd

·7· ·had part of it read to you?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember, sir.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sorry, I misspoke.· Did she tell

10· ·you that she had had part of it read to her?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Again, I don't remember.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But she did mention it to you?

15· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, probably.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you did say that's what was

17· ·kept from you by Retirement Living?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·If I could ask you to turn to

20· ·tab 26, sir; it's Exhibit No. 349.· Now, just before

21· ·we look at this document, as of July 17th, 2008 Mr.

22· ·Day had been fired, you were still waiting to hear

23· ·back from Mr. Gagne and Mr. Holford was out of the

24· ·picture; is that right?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, you didn't know what you

·2· ·were going to do with the --

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I knew.· I could have done

·4· ·better job than all of them combined.· By what

·5· ·action did I take?· May I explain or ...

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sure, why don't you do that.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I had inquired and I find out

·8· ·some kind of concrete which is much, much stronger

·9· ·than the normal.· Just for an example, a bag of

10· ·concrete normally is $5 for 10-kilo.

11· · · · · · · · · A bag of what I was inquiring was

12· ·$35.· Seven times more expensive than the normal

13· ·one, just to fill up the holes made by Mr. Day.

14· · · · · · · · · We purchased, I believe, close to

15· ·$40,000 immediately, the same day, from Sudbury.

16· ·Some from Sudbury because there was not much.· Some

17· ·from -- very little from Elliot Lake and other

18· ·places, and we delivered -- paid extra to deliver

19· ·the same day.· And we pulled those holes right away

20· ·leaving a v-shape groove all around the old concrete

21· ·and new for filling, out with THC900 and we stop

22· ·almost 90 per cent of the leak.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How long did that take you?

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Not more than a few days.

25· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Who was doing the work?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·We had a gentleman who was the

·2· ·husband of Ms. Laroue, Derreck Laroue and we had Mr.

·3· ·Ray LeBlanc and Al LeBreche and myself, and

·4· ·I believe we did a fantastic job to return to normal

·5· ·situation of the mall.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did you think you'd put the

·7· ·mall back in the way it was before Mr. Day started

·8· ·his work?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Much better, yeah.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Better than that?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, because those concrete that

12· ·have been removed were loose concrete, and Mr. Day

13· ·was jackhammering those out.· But the mistake that

14· ·he was doing is, when you are jackhammering in the

15· ·morning, at night it has to be fill up.· You cannot

16· ·go on making hole all around the place and the most

17· ·ridiculous part is that you fill with the Styrofoam

18· ·to fool people, and cover it in order to get larger

19· ·bill to be paid, that was very, very upsetting.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But on July 18th, you

21· ·really didn't know exactly what you were going to do

22· ·for the long-term; right?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·For the long-term, no.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what you did was not a long

25· ·term solution.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, we were just covering the

·2· ·damage who was occurred.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you knew -- and you'd known

·4· ·for some time, as you told me, for at least two

·5· ·years, since '06, you knew that you needed

·6· ·a permanent solution.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·May I -- may I respond to that,

·8· ·please?

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I was in a corner, where I could

11· ·not put a membrane and asphalt on top, due to the

12· ·weight.· I could not put a single membrane because

13· ·it would not resist the traffic, and so there was

14· ·virtually no solution, and I was sure that that roof

15· ·cannot be leak free, if we leave it like that or

16· ·change just the caulking, as you mentioned.

17· · · · · · · · · So, I was just simply lost.· Either

18· ·I had to put the roof on top or I had to create

19· ·a new parking.

20· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what was your decision?

21· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Both.· Anything I could do and

22· ·anywhere I could get the fund to save that mall.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to tab 26,

24· ·Exhibit No. 349.

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·26.· Yeah, I am in 26.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.· It is Exhibit No. 349.

·2· ·This is a letter on July 18th, 2008, so this is the

·3· ·day after you fired Mr. Day, from Mr. Fabris to

·4· ·Mr. Bauthus saying that, Mr. Bauthus writes that he

·5· ·has enclosed an aerial photograph outlining land

·6· ·which the mall would like to acquire from the City,

·7· ·in order to provide additional parking.

·8· · · · · · · · · Now, sir, this is the first letter

·9· ·that we've seen, in which Mr. Fabris wrote asking to

10· ·buy the land; is that your understanding, this was

11· ·the first one?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I'm not sure, but we wrote

13· ·several letters.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But this was the day after you

15· ·fired Mr. Day.

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you have Mr. Fabris write

18· ·the letter because Mr. Day had been fired and you

19· ·realized --

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·More than likely, yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And you realized you needed to

22· ·do something different?

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Now do you recall in early July,

·2· ·just about -- certainly before Mr. Day was fired, do

·3· ·you recall meeting with Mr. Bruce Ewald on the roof

·4· ·of the mall?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And how -- when was that; do you

·7· ·recall, in terms of -- in relation to when Mr. Day

·8· ·was fired?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, it was before that.

10· ·Actually, hold on.· I believe it was after.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·We know Mr. Ewald started work

12· ·on the 7th or 8th of July and Mr. Day was fired on

13· ·July 17th.· So, was it before or after?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·If you explain me what was in

15· ·regard to.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Ewald came to see you

17· ·because there was no building permit --

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Building permit.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- for the work.

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At that meeting, Mr. John

21· ·Clinckett was present.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.

23· · · · · · · · · A.· ·And they asked us that we

24· ·were -- we were, at that time, trying to change the

25· ·caulking with the new caulking.

·1· · · · · · · · · As I said, I took the initiative not

·2· ·only to fill up all the damages done by Peak

·3· ·Restoration, but as well as we hired so many helpers

·4· ·and we separate the jobs.· So some, they would

·5· ·remove all the old caulking and put a new caulking

·6· ·on the seams all over the place, not only leaking

·7· ·areas and the others, we were working on the paving

·8· ·and filling up and even removing the old concretes

·9· ·from the ...

10· · · · · · · · · (Simultaneous speakers - unclear)

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So this was after you'd fired

12· ·Mr. Day?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And did Mr. Ewald tell you that

15· ·you needed a building permit?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, he mention that we need

17· ·a building permit.· Well, John Clinckett got upset

18· ·and he says "We are doing nothing, but we are just

19· ·caulking the roof and for caulking we don't need a

20· ·building permit."

21· · · · · · · · · At that time I interfere and I said

22· ·"If we need a building permit, let it be.· We have

23· ·to go and get it."· And I asked Mr. England to --

24· ·Mr. England or Mr. Laroue because I almost fired Mr.

25· ·England at that time, to go and get the building

·1· ·permit, at any cost.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Ewald has testified that you

·3· ·told him you were not going to get a building

·4· ·permit; is that incorrect?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's not true.· Actually, Mr.

·6· ·Clinckett mentioned that, not me.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And your evidence is that

·8· ·you said, when Mr. Clinckett said that, you said

·9· ·"No, no, if we need a building permit, we'll get

10· ·one."

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Get one.· That's right.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So Mr. Ewald is wrong.

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·It's not my testimony.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay, if I could have you turn

15· ·to tab 34, sir, Exhibit No. 1391.· Sir, this is

16· ·an e-mail from Mr. Davison at the RBC to Mr. Mand on

17· ·July 23rd,2008, and Mr. Davison wrote:

18· · · · · · · · · · ".. further to your telephone

19· · · · · · · · · conversation of today with Jerry

20· · · · · · · · · Pavlatos and myself attached is

21· · · · · · · · · the Inspection Report dated July

22· · · · · · · · · 17, 2008 on Eastwood Mall.· As

23· · · · · · · · · indicated in the report there

24· · · · · · · · · are several deficiencies noted

25· · · · · · · · · in the property.· We are also

·1· ·attaching the cover letter for

·2· ·the Inspection which notes that

·3· ·approximately $3,000,000 will be

·4· ·required in order to cure the

·5· ·deficiencies.· The Master

·6· ·Servicer has been provided with

·7· ·a copy of the report and based

·8· ·on the condition of the mall are

·9· ·contemplating default

10· ·proceedings.· They have

11· ·requested a reasonable and

12· ·achievable strategy or plan from

13· ·the Borrower within 15 days to

14· ·cure the deficiencies noted in

15· ·the report.· We are also

16· ·forwarding an updated defeasance

17· ·quote which would allow the

18· ·borrower to substitute

19· ·Government of Canada Bonds as

20· ·security for the property.· We

21· ·look forward to receiving the

22· ·Borrower's strategy to rectify

23· ·the property deficiencies."

24· ·Now, did you get a copy of this, sir?

25· ·A.· ·I believe, yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And this was a serious notice;

·2· ·right?

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you look at the

·5· ·inspection report which is attached, the inspection

·6· ·report is dated July 17th which, unfortunately, was

·7· ·the same date that you fired Mr. Day; right?· So it

·8· ·couldn't have happened on a worse day.

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And if you turn to page numbered

11· ·-2222 -- the bottom right-hand corner, -2222, this

12· ·is part of the report and this was forwarded to you

13· ·as well; right?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You saw this report?

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, Royal Bank would not release

17· ·their --

18· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·No, they did release it, sir.

19· ·They sent it to Mr. Mand, your lawyer --

20· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

21· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- on July 23rd.

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I haven't seen it, but I believe

23· ·whatever it is inside.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Mr. Mand did not show this to

25· ·you?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I haven't seen this report,

·2· ·sir.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· You're quite sure of

·4· ·that?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·At page -2222 --

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Which is -- which exhibition

·8· ·(sic)?

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It is tab 34.

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Tab 34.· Okay.· Yeah.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Page -2222.· This is the report

12· ·from July 17th, and the date of the report is July

13· ·19th but they were at the mall on the 17th, and

14· ·under on page -2222 "Describe exterior condition of

15· ·the property" the inspector wrote:

16· · · · · · · · · · "There was been a marked

17· · · · · · · · · deterioration in the property

18· · · · · · · · · over the last year.· The roof of

19· · · · · · · · · the hotel needs complete

20· · · · · · · · · replacement and the concrete

21· · · · · · · · · parking deck over the retail

22· · · · · · · · · component also needs major work

23· · · · · · · · · and/or replacement.· The

24· · · · · · · · · leaking ..."

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sorry, I don't have that page,

·1· ·but that's okay.· That's fine.· I don't have that

·2· ·page.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·I can get it for you.

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, that's fine.· I can read it

·5· ·from there.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·All right.· So, we'll look at

·7· ·the screen.· It says:

·8· · · · · · · · · · "The leaking parking deck

·9· · · · · · · · · roof ..."

10· · · · · · · · · This is the top box on the page.

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.

12· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·The second line:

13· · · · · · · · · · "The leaking parking deck is

14· · · · · · · · · severe and three major tenants,

15· · · · · · · · · Zellers, Scotiabank and the town

16· · · · · · · · · library have indicated they will

17· · · · · · · · · vacate the mall without

18· · · · · · · · · immediate roof repairs.· Many

19· · · · · · · · · structural issues are present

20· · · · · · · · · due to the water leakage issue

21· · · · · · · · · and formal engineering study is

22· · · · · · · · · required on the integrity of the

23· · · · · · · · · structure."

24· · · · · · · · · Were you told -- you say you did not

25· ·get this report.

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, I did not.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Were you told by Mr. Mand that

·3· ·the inspector said that a formal engineering study

·4· ·was required on the integrity of the structure?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·He told you needed to do that?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And this was in July of

·9· ·2008.· Did you get a formal engineering study on the

10· ·integrity of the structure?

11· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember really, what

12· ·did we do at that date.· I know that it was very

13· ·much concern.· As you know, right from beginning, we

14· ·knew about these tenants' concern and we would do

15· ·anything to satisfy them.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But, sir --

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·But I don't know whether -- I am

18· ·lost.· I don't know I have received this document or

19· ·not.· I have not received it definitely, and I don't

20· ·know whether I knew about I had to hire a new

21· ·engineer or not.

22· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you did not hire one until

23· ·October of 2009; correct?· This is July of 2008.

24· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.· Okay, so we had

25· ·a structural engineering three time I know it's done

·1· ·in matter of seven years.· And all three time they

·2· ·gave us a clear green light.

·3· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Who were the three?

·4· · · · · · · · · A.· ·First of all, when we purchased,

·5· ·the Royal Bank did a structural report.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Yes.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Second and third was Mr. Bob

·8· ·Wright.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And Mr. Woods' reports --

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Mr. Wood.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- were in October of 2009 and

12· ·June -- sorry, May of 2012; right?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

14· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·So, can we agree that you did

15· ·not obtain a formal engineering study on the

16· ·integrity of the structure, as this report said you

17· ·needed?

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I understand that we have -- we

19· ·had a large dispute yesterday for the same subject,

20· ·but I can say that we have a statement from Mr.

21· ·Bear (sic) -- Rhonda Bear that he (sic) was calling

22· ·Mr. Robert Wood for months and she threaten even,

23· ·"If Mr. Wood you're not going to come to the mall to

24· ·remedy, not for this job, but for the works

25· ·department that we did ..." and the works

·1· ·department, they were asking for engineering to be

·2· ·done, she even went on to say, "If you don't show up

·3· ·we will hire another engineer."

·4· · · · · · · · · So, it is very normal, if we were

·5· ·waiting for a long time till Mr. Wood would be

·6· ·present and do the structural report.

·7· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Let's take that -- what you just

·8· ·said, sir, one step at a time.· You tell me that Ms.

·9· ·Bear was trying to get Mr. Wood to do a --

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·At one time.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- was -- what was she trying to

12· ·get him to do?

13· · · · · · · · · A.· ·The engineering for the location

14· ·of ex-retirement place for the works department.

15· ·The government office.

16· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·The Federal Government?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Federal Government, that's

18· ·right.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·She was trying to get them to do

20· ·some engineering work related to the move -- to --

21· ·to --

22· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Security.

23· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- for the Federal Government's

24· ·Service Canada --

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·1· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- moving into the old

·2· ·Retirement Living space.

·3· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's correct.· I appreciate

·4· ·that.

·5· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And she was not trying to get

·6· ·him to do work related to structural engineering --

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- integrity?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.· But what I'm saying is --

10· ·what I'm trying to say is sometimes we had to wait

11· ·months for getting an engineer to the mall and

12· ·getting the job done.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Sir, with respect, I'm just

14· ·trying to get an answer to the simple question of

15· ·whether you got a formal engineering study on the

16· ·integrity of the structure, following this report,

17· ·which was provided to your lawyer, on -- in July of

18· ·2008, and is the answer "no."

19· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, it's -- the answer is that

20· ·I have instructed Mr. -- Ms. Bear to take care of

21· ·that, and I'm not sure whether she has called

22· ·immediately to MRW and asked for engineering report

23· ·or she did later.· I cannot state that.· I'm sorry.

24· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Just so I'm clear, is it your

25· ·evidence that after this report was provided to your

·1· ·lawyer in July of 2008, you asked Ms. Bear to

·2· ·contact Mr. Wood to get a formal engineering study

·3· ·on the integrity of the structure; is that your

·4· ·evidence?

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When did you ask Ms. Bear to do

·7· ·that?

·8· · · · · · · · · A.· ·I don't remember exactly the

·9· ·date.· That's my handicap.· I do not remember every

10· ·date, and I cannot give you a round statement.

11· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But you do remember 2008?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·It was a bad year.

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Extremely.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·The summer of 2008 was very bad.

16· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

17· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And July 2008 was the worst.

18· · · · · · · · · A.· ·That's right.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And in July 2008 your lawyer got

20· ·this report, and it said that a formal engineering

21· ·study is required on the integrity of the structure.

22· · · · · · · · · Did you ask Ms. Bear shortly after

23· ·getting this -- your lawyer got this report -- did

24· ·you ask Ms. Bear shortly after that to contact

25· ·Mr. Wood?

·1· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·2· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·How did you speak to her?· Did

·3· ·you --

·4· · · · · · · · · (Simultaneous speakers - unclear)

·5· · · · · · · · · A.· ·On the phone.

·6· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·-- speak to her on the phone?

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Yes.

·8· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·You did not send her an e-mail?

·9· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

10· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·And what did she say she would

11· ·do?

12· · · · · · · · · A.· ·She agrees.

13· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did she report back to you?

14· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No.

15· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·Did you ever ask her what had

16· ·happened?

17· · · · · · · · · A.· ·No, she was going to take care

18· ·of it.

19· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But your bank is threatening

20· ·default and the report they gave your lawyer said

21· ·that you needed this formal study.

22· · · · · · · · · If you had asked Ms. Bear for it and

23· ·you didn't get it, didn't you ask her what was going

24· ·on?

25· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Sir, in the matter of three

·1· ·month getting the report is not very unusual for a

·2· ·small town like Elliot Lake, and the engineer who

·3· ·comes from out of town.

·4· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·But, sir, where did three months

·5· ·come from?· You never got such a report; right?· You

·6· ·never got such a report.

·7· · · · · · · · · A.· ·But I have asked for the

·8· ·engineering report.

·9· · · · · · · · · Q.· ·When was Ms. Bear hired?

10· · · · · · · · · A.· ·Oh, I don't remember the date.

11· · · · · · · · · MR. DOODY:· Mr. Commissioner, this

12· ·might be an appropriate time.

13· · · · · · · · · THE COMMISSIONER:· We'll rise until

14· ·9 o'clock tomorrow morning, Mr. Registrar.

15

16· · · · · · · · · · · ·----------

17

18· ·--- Whereupon at 5:01 p.m. the Inquiry proceedings

19· · · ·adjourned to 9:00 a.m. on Thursday, July 25, 2013 ---

20

21

22

23

24

25

·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

·2

·3· · · · · · · · · I, LISA M. BARRETT, RPR, CRR

·4· ·CSR, Certified Shorthand Reporter certify;

·5· · · · · · · · · That the foregoing proceedings were

·6· ·taken before me at the time and place therein set

·7· ·forth, at which time the witness was put under oath

·8· ·by me;

·9· · · · · · · · · That the testimony of the witness

10· ·and all objections made at the time of the

11· ·examination were recorded stenographically by me

12· ·and were thereafter transcribed;

13· · · · · · · · · That the foregoing is a true and

14· ·correct transcript of my shorthand notes so taken.

15

16· · · · · · · · · Dated this 28th day of July, 2013.

17· · · · · · · · · ____________________________________

18· · · · · · · · · NEESON & ASSOCIATES

19· · · · · · · · · COURT REPORTING AND CAPTIONING

20· · · · · · · · · INC.

21· · · · · · · · · PER: LISA BARRETT, RPR, CRR, CSR,

22· · · · · · · · · CERTIFIED REAL-TIME REPORTER

23

24

25

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com

http://www.neesoncourtreporting.com