Queerology: A Podcast on Belief and Being

Episode 47 – Julien Baker

Transcript

Matthias: If you enjoy listening to Queerology, then I need your help. Here's why, I create Queerology by myself on a shoestring budget. Recording and editing every episode in my tiny closet. How's that for irony? That's where you come in. Will you help keep Queerology on the air by supporting it financially? By tipping as little as one dollar a month you can help me improve, and keep making Queerology every week. All you have to do is jump over to MatthiasRoberts.com/support to make a pledge, and listen away.

Hey friends, this is Matthias Roberts, and you're listening to Queerology. A podcast on belief and being. This is episode 47.

Julien: I feel like sermons I used to fear as a young, young kid were, like, be careful you're not being deceived by the devil anytime you doubt anything, and you can't trust the flesh, and everything is just the motivation of your own body, and I think that creates an unhealthy mistrust of your desires.

Matthias: Julien Baker is a Tennessee based singer songwriter with a knack for finding the shaky ground between heart wrenching and cathartic. Her solo debut album, Sprained Ankle, was one of the most widely acclaimed works of 2015. She recorded it with one of her friends at 18, and it launched her to number 23 on the Billboard Heatseeker's Albums Chart, and it appeared on year end lists everywhere. From NPR music to the A.V. Club, to New York's magazine Vulture. Julien has performed on the Late Show with Stephen Colbert. She was one of Out Magazine's Out 100 in 2017, and she's been featured by the New York Times, Paste, the New Yorker, GQ magazine, VICE, NPR's Tiny Desk Concerts, and many more. Earlier this year she finished an International tour with Belle and Sebastian. She's currently wrapping up headlining a North American tour, and she's jumping right back into things this fall to headline an International tour.

In the midst of all of that, she's here, on Queerology, and I am so excited. I have been a fan of Julien's work for a couple years. Ever since I read about her in Out Magazine. She was talking about what it was like being a queer Christian, and I was, like, wait a second. Who is this person? And then a couple months ago she started following me on Twitter, and I reached out to her and was like, "Hey, I have this podcast." And she was like, "Hey, I listen to your podcast," and I was like, "Do you want to be on it?" And then here we are.

We dive into all kinds of topics in today's episode. We talk about faith and identity. We talk about ethics. We talk about church hopping. We talk about anxiety, and depression. Let's just go ahead and dive in.

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Julien. Hi, welcome.

Julien: Hi, it's so nice to speak with you this morning.

Matthias: Yeah, I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for joining me. To start, the question I ask everyone, how do you identify? And then how would you say that your faith has helped form that identity?

Julien: Oh, man. Okay. Just diving right on in there.

Matthias: Yeah.

Julien: I find this question harder, and harder to answer without hesitating because I would identify ... I usually just say I identify as a queer female. CIS female. Queer, but I guess I also hear people when they're asked this question because I listen to your podcast, and I listen to Queery, and people who identify with significant factors about their life, and I always feel prompted to say I'm a musician by trade, and I am a Christian person. I suppose, I guess, and of course you can edit out any of my long winded BS if you want to, but ... I feel like I get increasingly more hung up on linguistic accuracy, or the accuracy of nomenclature. And so, I don't know because I call myself a Christian. I've identified as Christian my entire life, and I believe in the teachings of the gospel, but also that there's all this baggage that now comes with identifying as evangelical, or Baptist, or even nondenominational which I'm learning from just some interesting stuff I've been about the U.S. Census Bureau, and how we now ... Like, Millennials define themselves, and their religious affiliation.

But, so, I guess, I just stick with I make music, and I believe in God, and I am queer, and I guess, the other thing is that I would call myself a humanitarian if that didn't seem arrogant on my part because I know there's a perpetual shortcoming of course in anyone who is like, "Oh, I'm a philanthrope. I love humanity," but that's not a constant state for anyone because we're human, so ... I strive to be humanitarian, and to think about that quite a bit, but I don't know if I'm there yet.

Matthias: Yeah, I'm thinking about that in ... That kind of struggle with what do I call myself. Especially around kind of like faith identity. Because you're right. That word Christian is one that I know I wrestle with a lot. Of like, this word means so many things, and so many things that I don't identify with. Do I really want to claim that label for myself? And yet there's something intriguing about it too. And, yeah, it's complicated.

Julien: Right. Yeah, and I mean it's interesting because I feel that our individual identity at this point in just where we are in history, as far as our social development, and our cultural awareness. The fragmentation of identity, and this is a beautiful thing, but now at least probably in the in groups, or some of the in groups that you and I are a part of. Gender and sexuality is a spectrum. It is not a binary, you know? And so, we're moving away from black and white categorization, and into infinite possibility for diversification, and individualization, but then that makes it that much more urgent that you have a deep self knowledge of where you reside, and a lot of times I'm not sure. You know? I think

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there's a grand uncertainty that makes me maybe a little bit unsettled, but is something that I'm grappling with more now, but especially with religion too.

I just got done reading this book called, Life's Too Short Pretend You're Not Religious, by David Dark.

Matthias: Yeah.

Julien: And. Oh, have you? Are you aware of David Dark?

Matthias: I am. I haven't read his ... I read the Sacredness of Questioning Everything a few years ago, but I haven't read that one yet.

Julien: Oh. So good. He's such a cool dude.

Matthias: Yes.

Julien: I've never met somebody who is able to adeptly talk about the issues he does with such a reverence for his position as just a CIS het white dude. He's amazing, and really just kind, but also he talks about in Life's Too Short To Pretend You're Not Religious, that they had to modify the census religious affiliation portion of the questionnaire because wouldn't even put nondenominational. They would just send it back blank, and so they added this thing called non-affiliated because now I think in our current generation where our, like, our social actuality. We are increasingly more reticent to concreteness, and definitive labeling. And so, we don't want to be even something like nondenominational. Now, even though it literally means no denomination. When you say nondenominational, to me it summons to mind the mega church, like, rock church, nondenominational like it's just chill church, or "chill" church. You know, what I mean? But, it's definitely a thing, and so, I wonder then ...

And I have this conversation with. I know you know, SueAnn.

Matthias: Yeah. I mean, she was on this podcast too. For everyone who is like who is SueAnn? Go listen to her episode, so ...

Julien: That episode is wild.

Matthias: Right?

Julien: And it's so crazy to listen to that episode because it sounds like just a conversation you're having with SueAnn.

Matthias: Yeah.

Julien: I just met up with her in Detroit on tour, and we were together for five seconds. Literally five minutes into our conversation, and one of us was like, "Well, there's no ethical consumption in order to capitalism, and I was like, "I knew we would get here, SueAnn."

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It took us five whole minutes. But, I was texting her recently about just I don't even know at what point I start separating the institution I'm defending from the church it's supposed to represent. Like, church and institution as separate things, you know? Or maybe to me it feels like anything that has an ideal manifestation, and then a truth. The idea of the rugged individualism. Mythos of the United States, and then the actuality of our history, and the actuality of our bureaucracy. I find that mirrored in most everything. In the church, and probably specifically the church, and also just because in the United States I think religion and politics are collapsed in a very insidious way, but yeah, that's my ... I feel myself looking over the cliff of a tangent. I'm gonna pull back, and let you guide us away.

Matthias: Well, or maybe we just might jump off together because I'm thinking about this, and I'm thinking of yesterday I was driving, and listening to Brene Brown's audio lecture as on the Power of Vulnerability, and the section I was listening to was around certainty versus uncertainty, and I feel like that ties in so well here. In that idea of we want the certainty of labels, and yet there's a deep uncertainty that goes into those labels, and I mean, she talks about having to sit in uncertainty, and how deeply uncomfortable that is, and I feel like that's kind of what we're talking about here is just how incredibly uncomfortable it is to sit in that space of I kind of know, but I don't know, and this is too rigid, and yet I want it to be rigid, and yet I don't, and just kind of the almost yuckiness of all of that.

Julien: Right.

Matthias: It's hard.

Julien: And it's interesting because I think of that. Like when you describe the perpetual feeling of uncertainty. The pull between the two things. The two diametrically opposed desires that we have. We have a desire for the security of certainty, and we want ... Oh, my gosh. I was just talking about this to one of my friends who is in a communication theory class. We have two. There's a tension of human communication, which is our hunger for belonging, and inclusion, and then our desire for autonomy and individuality. And when I think the ideal. When those two things intersect is when your myriad differences are purposed for a singular goal. Which, I guess, would be the ... A truly rigid gospel model of communal living, but, then, of course, as always happens things get more complex, and it's harder to achieve that when you have more permutations of differences, and you have more highly specified desires. Then I think about enacting. How would we even go about enacting that in a church community, you know?

Because right now I actually am between, or not attending a church because I have been touring so much that I'm never home on Sundays. For the last six months of 2017 I was home. I was not home four days in a row for six months in one city. It's like, I probably have a lot more skewed concept of what really putting roots down in a community means because my community has become my touring crew, and my close family, and partner.

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Matthias: Yeah, and I think, I mean, I hear you saying that kind of ... I don't. I don't. I mean, you said skewed version of putting down roots, but I feel like there's so many people though that I talk to who maybe who aren't touring all the time, but who have such a hard time finding faith communities. I think maybe for similar reasons at least of that kind of in between, uncertain. I don't even know what I want / even believe anymore when it comes to this faith stuff.

Julien: Right.

Matthias: I mean, I don't know. I don't know if that resonates, or it could be different reasons, but ...

Julien: Well, yeah. I think even when there's a lot of ... I mean, and this is ... I guess I could just stick a flag at this fork in our conversation, and say here's a possible tangent, because when I think of finding, or visiting several faith communities say within the same city. I think of what that process really means, or it reflects in my life. What am I looking for? Am I looking for somewhere ... Obviously, as a queer person I'm looking for an affirming church because that is where I feel comfortable worshiping, but then beyond that in the multiple affirming churches what brand of preaching, worship, community, service. What formula or concoction of all of those things do I need to feel spiritually fed?

And I remember when I was younger, or when I was very young because later in my life I had a really almost miraculously awesome church community, but when I was very young I remember the pastor saying, kind of touting church shopping. It was a bad thing. You should just pick somewhere, and go because God's word is God's word, and you are the thing that needs to change, and not the church, and then there's all these mixed in emotions of the biblical concepts of self sacrifice, and self effacing patience that ... Not just tolerates, but seeks to engage in a person with a difference of opinion in love. And so, I always wonder if ... Because there is also something, I think toxic about going to a place. Or being in a relationship with people that don't challenge you, but then I wonder how much of that self doubt is imbued into our ... I wish I didn't say like so much. How much of that self doubt is imbued into our spiritual consciousness that makes us mistrustful of our minds, so, that we're fully reliant upon a punitive authority. And then that punitive authority uses its power. Just uses that authority to consolidate power, and not to draw us into community with one another. Does that make sense?

I've seen sermons I used to hear as a young, young kid where be careful you're not being deceived by the devil anytime you doubt anything, and you can't trust the flesh, and everything is just a motivation of your own body, and you should just... You know what I mean? You learn to think that every thought you have might be evil, so, you better be real careful, and I think that creates an unhealthy mistrust of your desires. Okay, so, if I don't feel comfortable in a congregation that's my fault. That's the devil trying to make me feel uncomfortable at this church, or something. You know? And so, it's me having a legitimate need.

Matthias: Yeah. Well, yeah. I think that, that's so pervasive. That mistrust, and that idea of then having ... I feel like this has been my own process, and maybe yours as well? Then

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having to learn about how to actually trust my body, and then start believing that God has given us bodies for reasons, and feelings, and emotions, and they're actual tools that can bring us further into fullness of life instead of these things that bring us away from abundant life. All of that work. It's so much work to try to get over.

Julien: Dude. I know.

Matthias: That teaching.

Julien: And I feel unfortunately that so much of healthy spiritual journey has to be unlearning, or discerning what to keep ... Spring cleaning of your ideology. Where you go through all the closets of fundamental theology that you were taught in youth, and think, okay, X is still fundamentally true for me, but Y is not, and I understand that to be culturally motivated, or politically motivated, and what does my own understanding of my faith, and personal revelation say about that. And it's this huge excavation process to even be able to understand what you believe.

And then, so, for instance, I don't necessarily want to go to a church, or attend a congregation where everybody believes the exact same thing as me. Obviously, even if that were the ... We were all on the same page politically, and social ideology wise. Because I would fear that it would not be engaging other members of what's supposed to be an interwoven faith community, and then it would just further be splintering off into sects of personally invented religion. Where we end up worshiping a set of ideology, instead of doing the hard work of engaging with each other, but I don't know.

I feel hesitant anytime to say that because I don't want for it to come off as if I don't prioritize certain fundamental things.

Matthias: Right.

Julien: I'm not out here trying to go to a homophobic church on purpose. I'm not an insane person, but ... you ... That would just be. I mean, I don't know.

Matthias: Yeah. Well, and I think. I mean, I wonder. This almost feels like in this conversation there's kind of that ... I always have this message, and I'm curious about this for you too, but there's kind of that message that I was raised with of if you stop going to church. That do no forsake the assembly of believers, or whatever scripture talks about of the, like. That you taking time to kind of figure out what you want, or church shop, or whatever is a sign of backsliding, and not prioritizing faith.

Julien: Right.

Matthias: And that is such a pervasive belief. I think even in my body that I feel guilty on Sunday mornings for not going to church.

Julien: Yeah. Or then you realize ... I used to for a long time. I will say too that ... And there's another element of that within a church community if a family, or a person stops going

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to that church, and starts going to another church that they feel is a better home for them. It's almost a taboo. Well, now you're not seeking to serve a church. You're seeking for a church to serve you, and because self denial is something that's tied up in a lot of Traditionalist theology. That's a really negative thing to ever just say I can't jive with this church, so, I have to move. I don't want to work on the existing thing. I want to leave and start over. But, also, yeah. But, like, for a while in my life I would try to read scripture daily. I would just wake up and have quiet time, and read scripture daily to offset that guilt. To hope that if I would just ruminate and study on my own then I wouldn't feel so bad about not being at church on Sunday, and being a spiritual delinquent.

Which, of course, because I have been in and out of church my whole life, and so have my parents. It has never been such a strong thing for me as some of my friends who their parents have never missed a Sunday, and if their parents knew that they didn't go to church it would be devastating, but my parents were like do whatever. We trust you, and we have candid conversations about that. And then I started to feel that I as much as I wanted to engage in the academia of my faith, and just being knowledgeable about it so that I have this arsenal of discussion whenever the multitude of politicized theology conversations come up. Yeah. As much as I enjoy that pursuit. The manifestation of God that I find most tangible is what occurs within a community, but more and more I find that not limited to church.

And this sounds like a bunch of ... I don't want to say this word because it also might be offensive, but it sounds just like me being a white girl yoga mystic. The world is my church. You know what I mean? I do find that there's a need for specific and intentional conversations in faith communities, but I'm almost unable to think of God in any other way then interpersonal now. And so, that seems to be the most present spiritual task. I don't know if that makes sense, or if it sounds like nonsense, or if it sounds like I'm being mean to people who practice yoga, which I don't have a problem with. I think it's very healthy. My tour manager tries to get me to do yoga all the time. Yeah.

Matthias: I hear you though. I think. I mean, I wonder that too though 'cause I wonder about, so ... I mean, what if church, maybe ... "Church" does look different for different people. Of where instead of it being this kind of I go to a building on Sunday mornings. I often think about this podcast as church in a way. Of having very intentional conversations around faith, and there's a community involved. And I wonder sometimes if that's enough? As in maybe it is enough? Maybe that's okay? I don't know.

Julien: Dude. You said one of the most fascinating words to me, which is enough. That's a word that I get super hung up on. What's enough? Or what is ... For me, I guess, it used to be what's right? You know? What is doing the right thing? And that took on a lot of different faces. Whether it was trying to be biblically right, and follow the teachings of Jesus, and I guess the legalistic incarnation of rightness, and then later it was this arrogant over intellectual obsession with philosophical, ethical right. But, then, like, what, exactly. What is enough? You're ...

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I don't know what kind of church you grew up in. I feel I've heard you talk about it, and it was a pretty traditional church. Am I correct?

Matthias: Yeah. A pretty traditional. Pretty conservative.

Julien: Okay.

Matthias: Borderline fundamentalist, but I think they were a little bit too heavy on grace to be fundamentalist, but right about there.

Julien: Too heavy on grace to be fundamentalist is exactly what I think of when I think of ... It's almost a veiled Neo-Calvinism of where total depravity is really drilled into you. The worm theology that kind of illustrates God's magnitude by this parabolic opposite. The worst that we can imagine humanity is, and the less we can deserve God, and the more we remind ourselves that we're absolutely nothing. Then the more impressive, and unbelievable God's grace becomes because we're so bad. And that is supposed to be. I guess, an instrument to teach humility, but what it really teaches is it instills uncertainty, and self doubt, and often I think self hatred that is just wearing the mask of humility. And I think those two things are different, but then it makes you uncertain that anything you'll ever do will be enough because I mean, it's that ... What I was gonna say is the conundrum that you are taught from childhood if you grow up in a church that subscribes to that sort of belief is nothing you will ever do will be enough, but try your hardest anyway, but it's okay if you fail, but don't fail because then that's still bad.

And so, from a very early age you have to hold that paradox in your mind, and I just think that there are more. It's not that it's not accurate, but it's the way that it ... I think can be weaponized to make people hate themselves.

Matthias: Yeah. I'm thinking it's a ... Two thoughts. It's a theology that's deeply rooted in shame. It's that inherit teaching people that there is something wrong with who you are as a person, and they're always will be something wrong with who you are as a person, and Jesus makes that better, but you're still dirt, which is just shame. And then the other thing that you were talking about, kind of that false humility. It made me think of in the world of psychology there's narcissism, but there's two different sides to that. There's inflated narcissism, which is often what we think about. There's also deflated narcissism, which is that kind of false sense of humility. That sense of I think exactly what you were talking about. It's still so me centered that I am dirt. I am nothing. It's still narcissism.

Julien: True. True. I think. And it's interesting that you bring up the name for deflated narcissism because I remember another pastor using the terminology always. Reverse idolatry of sin, have you ever heard of that word combo?

Matthias: I don't know.

Julien: It's just a mental. It's like a overfull mental suitcase we just got to unpack. Reverse idolatry of sin is ... I guess his thinking was you have something that's an idol to you that you find precious, and you find that thing, or your actions would communicate to others

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that, that thing is more important to God. Whatever. Financial security, more important than God. Blahblahblah. But, reverse idolatry of sin is this belief that when shame drives us away from a relationship with God, or makes us too afraid to encounter, or interact with God. That we are implicitly stating, or subconsciously believing that our sin, or the thing that's wrong with us is somehow bigger than God, and I think that, that's a useful way to imagine it because it's kind of similar to what you're saying about the deflated narcissism. It decentralizes the focus from me, and my sin, and I am so awful to away from just yourself, and your own failure, but I think it still exists within this interesting thing that happens in American Christianity that I find intriguing, I guess.

That it's very ... We want a personal God, and we think of personal as belonging to us, or ... And I'm not saying that ... Okay, I'm just gonna backup here and start again because I don't want to get misconstrued, but I think we want this God that we have one idea for, and that is to provide us with salvation and comfort. I see a lot of churches that are very, very vocal about awesome concepts like grace, and mercy, and the love of God. And those things are fricking awesome, and make me excited, but I think that it is dangerous when it's purely individual. It's for that individuals need for comfort and security, and we need to construct a mental equation to get us to the X of salvation, and that is what we come to church for, and I think that stopped being why I needed church.

And so, I started to feel uncomfortable with just seeking a one on one relationship with God that did not involve overflowing love for humans, or community, or service. And that's not to be like ... The risk in saying something like that is it sounding like I am condemning another person's way of interacting with their faith. Or if you're not out there working at a soup kitchen everyday then somehow you're not doing what God calls you to do, and that's not what I'm saying at all because I do think the personal relationship with God is important to anybody's faith, but it can't ... I think that when God starts being something solely to alleviate your fear, then, and it's not within a context of a larger collaborative community. That's everybody working together to figure out these fears, and these worries, and these global needs. That's when you end up having the Christian ostrich that I got so frustrated with during election season. That's, like, well, thank God, God is sovereign, and I'm not going to vote. Not going to engage the violence that's happening outside my door. Not going to see part of my faith as directly related to those things. I'm just gonna worry about me, Julien Baker, and Julien Baker's spiritual needs. I think that's kind of dangerous. Maybe?

Matthias: Yeah. I think I would say more than maybe.

Julien: I said maybe because I'm terrified that someone is gonna be, like, look, I used to go to an extremely oppressive church, and I need to be ... Because there are people that maybe they were told hellfire and brimstone every day at a church that they grew up in, and they need to be told you're a beautiful, beloved, child of the living God. They need to be told that every day, but I think it can't just end there in ... The purpose of God is not to just save you, and then that's it. Like, I got it. I think we think a lot about ... Or even I did this. I used to think about will I got to heaven when I die or not? Because I'm just scared of hell, or scared of not going to heaven, and I did not think about what the Gospel implies for my physical, corporal life on earth at this moment.

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The whole heaven on earth concept became a lot more fascinating to me. 'Cause if we're gonna pray for heaven on earth then part of the church as the body of Christ's purpose is to enact that. How do we start enacting that by being arbiters of love, and relief from suffering to our fellow human beings, but if I was just worried about reading enough obscure theological philosophers to tell me whether I was gonna go to heaven or hell. Then I was missing all these opportunities to encounter a living manifestation of God in all of the people that I meet. You know? I don't know.

But, you were gonna say something before I apologize for being so wishy-washy. I'm a non-confrontational Libra to the core.

Matthias: I love it.

Julien: I'm sorry that I just said maybe about something that should have been certainly.

Matthias: I mean, I don't know. I'm hearing you talk about this, and I feel this is almost the theme of the conversation. That mix between uncertainty, and certainty, and the hunger for belonging. Yet, individuality, and all of those things are tying together. And I guess, I'm wondering ... I'm wondering kind of the topic of self doubt has come up a lot, and I feel that's something we also see in your music a whole lot. And I mean, you're really open about your wrestlings with anxieties, and depression, and self doubt. And I'm curious whether you would tie together some of these thoughts of growing up in a context of where this was kind of drilled into us, and how that manifested itself in your music, and in other relationships, and in anxiety, depression. Do you draw connections between those things, or do you just view them separately? I'm curious if we can just talk about that a little bit?

Julien: Oh. No. Absolutely. I was recently on tour, and the artist that was direct support for the whole tour. She and I were talking about ... She grew up in a non-religious household. She actually had four moms. She had two mothers, and then they separated and are now with new partners. And I was just, like, "Oh, my gosh. That's fascinating," because I thought my queer aunts were roommates until I was straight up like 15 years old.

Matthias: Yes.

Julien: Because you know that whole parental lie.

Matthias: Yep. Yep.

Julien: Dude. But, she had a much different upbringing, but we had similar self doubt issues of never knowing if you're doing the right thing, or what's morally good, or if people are fundamentally bad. Or if they're fundamentally bad, and they sometimes do good things. Or if they're fundamentally good, and sometimes do bad things. That seems to be the age old question, period. And I was so ... It made me question a lot of things because I think I have traced back my continual ethical anxiety. That I just feel like I'm living an Albert Camus novel at the grocery store when I'm trying to decide if I should buy these non-sustainable water bottles, and I just like having a crisis at the Kroger, and

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I always trace that back to an intense sense of right and wrong ingrained in me from a religious upbringing, but then when I spoke to someone who had no religious upbringing, and still grappled with those things. I thought well maybe it is just that we have fertile emotional soil for those kinds of anxieties that then mutate depending on what kind of environment we're placed in, but honestly I would still probably attribute a lot of my ... Not my anxiety, but how ... Like, the forms my anxiety takes, right? The positions that the whack-a-mole of panic appears in I think has a lot to do with the areas of focus that religion really hones in on.

I guess, your behavior in the world. How you treat other human beings. So, I think. I think a lot about those things, but then I also think a lot about is it enough? Or what is forgivable? Well, I guess, forgivable is a loaded word. What's permissible? What's non-permissible? How do I act in every situation, and I try to filter that through all these webs of what will incur ... Like, what will be the most loving response. And so, sometimes if we're thinking about ... If we're thinking about in like a social activism context, which ... You know, to me religion, politics, social activism all are just kind of interwoven. If we're thinking about how I view myself in that sphere. There's a lot of me wanting to be very vocal about my own beliefs, and about my own actions, but then also wanting to be humble enough to allow other people to take up space, and not insist upon my own hubris of intelligence, or certainty. And have this Solomon complex of about having it all figured out, but then I wonder if that's the old remaining silence in times of oppression, and thus choosing the side of the oppressor. I don't know. I think they all are interrelated, and they come out of my music.

Like, there's songs on the last record ... There's one song in particular that is just straight up about feeling like the things that you do to be good, or that are a communication, or an attempt to summon and embody the divine. Are like, when those things ultimately are not enough to quell the anxiety of am I a good person? Then you have to reevaluate where those anxieties are coming from. At that point I don't think it's any longer a conviction based in God's actual opinion of you. That's a human problem. I don't know. I think I got a little bit sidetracked, but ... So, I'm sorry about that. But, yeah, no. They're all interrelated, I guess.

Matthias: Yeah.

Julien: What about you? Do you ... I guess that's sort of a self answering question to be like how much do you think your religious upbringing really impacted your psyche?

Matthias: Right?

Julien: Yeah.

Matthias: I don't know. It's one of those things that I'm like ... I mean, I certainly don't want to equate religious upbringing with anxiety, and depression. Because anxiety and depression is so much more, and different than that, and it can certainly contribute.

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Julien: Oh, yeah, but I don't think. I don't think maybe it's a question of causality, but it's a question of ... I don't think a religious upbringing causes the anxiety and depression, but I think that it gives us this added ... I'll say mutation again. Because it mutates the problem, and adds new facets to it because I imagine ... Sometimes I like to just role play as a secular person, and think what would a secular person do in this situation. Or maybe a secular person is not the right word, but I just wonder what if a person ... What if I didn't think about anything to do with my religious moral compass in this decision what would I do?

And I honestly don't think it would be that much different, because I'm not out here thinking that there's an ethical superiority to having been raised with a very stringent code of ethics that are based in what we're told is biblical guidelines, and what honestly has to do equally with Traditionalist cultural guidelines, but I think of if I am trying to be a moral person, and I believe that I ... I do something, and I believe I fail. I've just failed me in a very limited sphere of the people who it effects, and my earthly zone, and not that if I do something trying to be the best person I can be, and I fail then I have before a divine audience of extreme import failed to do the best I can as a human. That multiplies the weight of every decision by an insane amount.

I don't know if you ever grew up in that household that was like ... And my household was not like this, but certainly there are Sunday school ... My mother and father weren't like this, but then there are Sunday school teachers, and just teachers, and just other authority figures in your life who will give you seemingly innocuous pieces of information like God's always watching. Like, a scarier Santa. He's sitting there counting all your demerits, and as much as you can logically unravel that in adulthood. I think you never get away from being I'm not just disappointing, or harming, or just not living up to the standard of my fellow man. I am making ... It's a divine crime.

Matthias: Yeah. Yeah. I am disappointing the divine creator of all things, and like, no pressure.

Julien: God just saw you double park. God just saw you park in a handicap spot, and God knows you're not handicapped. You know what I mean?

Matthias: Yep.

Julien: It's insane.

Matthias: Yep. Mm-hmm.

Julien: But, I think that, that does kind of amplify the intensity of how we feel we're acting in the world, and especially for the queer community. I have had conversations with straight CIS hetero friends, and they are working to unravel enough shame about their bodies, and themselves, and the feelings that they felt during puberty, and their sexuality. And they ... Wow, I was gonna say and they're just straight people. Like, just straight people.

Matthias: Mm-hmm. Just straight people.

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Julien: Boring old straight people. Just the straights. Snooze. I'm just kidding. But, yeah, but I mean that. They are working to unravel a lot of trauma around their sexuality, and their sexual preference is not considered an aberration. Then imagine to be a queer person. Not only are these feelings wrong, but they're not even legitimized in any sort of future sphere. I have to push everything about my own self identity down, and try to find it more in self denial. [inaudible 00:48:40] And, man, it just seems, like, extremism, and the weaponization of the Bible for the preservation of a certain Traditionalist culture is what really leads to the decontextualization of things that I think are ultimately good as they are described as tenets in the actual language of the Gospel. Because I hear things sided all the time, and I did as a child, and I had to learn the balance of this.

Things like to lose everything about myself is game for the Kingdom of God, or I must decrease so that God may increase. All of these things are about me. The physical, tangible individual becoming less, and making space for God, and I think that just like we've talked about humility, selflessness, patience, sacrificing your own comfort for others. Those are beautiful, admirable qualities, but I think they get taken so far into a reluctance to own our individuality. And for queer people, certainly, because you think that it's an ultimatum then. That either I choose to hold onto my individuality, or I give it up as a cross that I'll bear as a sacrifice. You know? And that's really, really toxic.

Matthias: Yeah. Yeah. Something from one of my professors just popped into my head. Talking about both theologically, but, and psychically. In order to give up a sense of self, or to self sacrifice, or that kind of stuff. You have to have a sense of self to begin with. You have to have a self to begin with, and so often we don't focus. So often we miss that development of self, and just give it all up, and we don't even know who we are. You know? And yet, we are.

Julien: Yeah.

Matthias: It's so true.

Julien: Yeah. Or I mean, I think of that too in, like, if we are supposed to be eternally living in a ... I guess, the terminology would be in a kingdom minded way. Then we forsake our concern with the current physical realm. And I think all the time ... I was in a really fascinating history course once where we talked about how in the whole feudal system. The use of theology that focused on the afterlife so much was a power tool to make people more willing to endure present suffering, and not question oppression. When really if you go back and you historically analyze the Bible, and even the Old Testament. There's a lot of the people of God interacting with oppressive power structures, and desiring comfort within those on earth, which is a totally legitimate thing. You know what I mean?

And I think we do this thing where we shame people for saying ... For having that identity as you said. For saying I am queer, and I would like to be accepted within my faith community, and then to have that desire is almost rejected as like ... So, you want something to make yourself comfortable instead of giving up something about yourself

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for the church, or for ... Like, as a sacrifice to God, or as your cross that you have to take up, but I mean that's used in so many other ways.

I think anger is something I'm just now within the last two years becoming comfortable with. I used to think that conflict of anger always were the smoke signaling the fire of a not okay thought. You know? If I were really being godly, and gracious, and forgiving, then I wouldn't be angry at anyone, but then the more and more global atrocities happen. The more I think maybe there is such a thing as justifiable anger, so, that's hard.

Matthias: It is hard. And, oh gosh. Yeah. I feel like we could keep talking about this forever.

Julien: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Matthias: And yet, I'm very aware of the time too.

Julien: Oh, yeah.

Matthias: And, so, for as much as I don't want to cut this conversation off. Maybe to close. To jump out of the kind of heaviness of this conversation. I had reached out to people who watched my Instagram story, and it was what would you want to ask Julien? Marco, in South Africa. Shout-out to Marco. Is wondering what is on your personal playlist, and what should we be listening to right now?

Julien: Oh, my gosh. Okay. Wow. On my personal playlist. I've been listening to a lot of Kevin Abstract, and that new record, American Boyfriend. I think it's called, American Boyfriend. Yeah, American Boyfriend, and then a band called the Internet. I think the record is called, Ego Death. And the SZA record. I know it's been out a couple months, but I'm still obsessed with it, and ... Dang, what else am I listening to? Lucy Dacus. She just put out a record, and Tancred. That band is about to put out a record, and we just got off tour. That's the tour I was talking about. Is we just got off tour with an artist called, Tancred. Yeah.

Matthias: Oh, cool. Nice.

Julien: Just a lot of. Yeah, I've been trying to listen to more like, stuff like outside of my punk and hardcore zone.

Matthias: Yeah.

Julien: You know? I feel I kind of limit myself, but, yeah.

Matthias: I love it. I'm sitting here writing down all these names as if this isn't recorded, and I can just return to it. I'm, like, oh, can you ... But, like, I'm, like, oh, whatever ... So ...

Julien: Right.

Matthias: Julien, thank you so much.

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Julien: Yeah.

Matthias: This has been such a pleasure.

Julien: Of course. Thank you for having me on the podcast. Thanks for letting me ramble about the sea-saw of ethics for a little while.

Matthias: Yeah.

Julien: This is just a little window into my daily thing.

Matthias: I love it.

Be sure to pick up a copy of Julien's new album, Turn Out the Lights, wherever you buy music. It's also available on all streaming services as well, but, you know, buy music. Support artists. You can find Julien across the internet @JulienRBaker.

Queerology is on Twitter and Instagram @QueerologyPod, or you can tweet me directly @MatthiasRoberts. Queerology is produced with support from Natalie England, Tim Schraeder, Christian Hayes, and other Patreon supporters. To find out how you can help support Queerology, head over to MatthiasRoberts.com/support. A really easy way to help support Queerology is by leaving a rating or review. You can do that right in your podcast app, or head over to MatthiasRoberts.com/review, and it'll take you right there. As always I'd love to hear from you. If you have ideas of what you want to hear on the podcast, or just want to say hi. Reach out. I'll get back to you, and until next week y'all, bye.

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