Secret Feminist Agenda Transcript

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Episode3.26MastersofTextwithAmesHawkinsApril18,2019

Hannah(Host): 00:00 [Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]Hi,I'mHannahMcGregorandthisisSecretFeministAgendaandI'mdoingsomethingI'vealmostneverdonebefore,whichisactuallyrecordingtheintroductiontoSecretFeministAgendaonaFriday.That'sright.Thisepisodeisgoingtobelate.Notawholedaylate,halfadaylate,becauseIdidn'thavetimetofinisheditingitthisweek.Funfact!Thisisstretchingthedefinitionoftheword"fun."TheweekafterclassesarefinishedattheuniversityisalwaysoneofthebusiestweeksoftheyearformebecauseitistheweekwhenIscheduleliterallyeverysinglemeetingIdon'thavetimeforduringthesemester.SoIhavehadlikethreetofivemeetingsadaythroughoutthisweek.It'sbeenextremelysilly.I'vealsobeenworkingonabrandnewpodcastingprojectthatIamstartingwithafriendofmine.Iamgoingtotellyouliterallynothingaboutit,exceptthatitisveryfun,andI'mhavingagreattime,andIthinkthatyou'regonnalikeit.SoIlookforwardtomorenewsaboutthatatsomemysteriouspointinthefuture.Okay,enoughpreamble.We'reonatightdeadlinehere.Theepisodeisalreadyfourandahalfhourslateandcounting,solet'smeetAmes.[Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]AmesHawkinsisacreativecriticalscholar,educator,andartactivist.Amultimodalcomposerwhouseswritingandarttoexploretheintersectionsofalphabetictext,image,andsound,Amestheorizesthepowerandpleasureofqueryingform.Herrecentworkmakescontributionstothelargerconversationsregardingmultimodalcomposing,sociallyengagedpractice,collaboration,queerliterarynonfiction,andcreativeprocessasresearchmethodology.Ames'iscreativecriticalscholarshipappearsacrossarangeofacademicandliterarypublications,bothprintandonline,suchasPre/Text,Constellations,PalaverJournal,enculturation,SlagGlassCity,TheFeministWire,TheRumpus,andWaterStoneReview.HerbookTheseareLove(d)LetterswillbereleasedthisSeptemberintheMadeinMichiganseriesatWayneStateUniversityPress.Amesisco-hostandco-producerofthescholarlypodcast,MastersofText,andistheAssociateProvostforFacultyResearchandDevelopmentandanAssociateProfessorofEnglishandCreativeWritingatColumbiaCollegeChicago.[Music:"WeUsedtoWait"byArcadeFire]

Ames: 03:13 It'sfunny,right?LikeIdon'tknowyouatall,butwhenyouheareachother'svoiceyou'restrangelymorefamiliar,orcomfortable,orsomething.

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Hannah(Host): 03:22 Uhhuh.

Ames: 03:22 Butwe're,wellwedon'tknoweachotheratall.Let'sjustbeclear.[Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 03:25 Nope.[Laughs]Imeanthatisoneofthereally,likeit'sa,it'sanoftcitedthingaboutpodcasting,butitisprobablymyfavoritething,isitsgenerationofweirdone-sidedintimacies.

Ames: 03:39 Right.Imeanit'soneofthereasonsIlikeitsomuch,Ithink,too.

Hannah(Host): 03:42 Yeah.

Ames: 03:42 Becauseyoucanfeellikeyouhaverelationshipswiththepeopleoryou'reinsidethatintimateconversation.You'reaflyonthewall,butsomebodyletyouin.Soyougettobethe,theapprovedvoyager,ifyouwill.

Hannah(Host): 03:54 Yeah,yeah.It'snotinvasivebecausesomebodyhas,youknow,consented.

Ames: 03:59 Right.Exactly.Voyeurismbyconsent,right?

Hannah(Host): 04:02 [Laughs].

Ames: 04:02 Soit's,it's,it'sexactlyaqueerpolitics.Soweallconsenttoallowsomeonetowatch,sotospeak.

Hannah(Host): 04:12 Mmhmm.

Ames: 04:12 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 04:12 Whichisactually,Ithink,aninterestingconversationthat'shappeningrightnowintruecrimepodcasting.How,likeitkindoftipsthepleasureofvoyeurism,thatpodcastingisoftenplayingonintoaspaceofmoredubiousconsent.Andit'slike,youknow,thatpodcast,theonethatwasabouttryingtofindwhereRichardSimmonshadgone?

Ames: 04:33 Oh,Idon'tknowthat.

Hannah(Host): 04:34 It'scalledsomethinglike,SearchingforRichardSimmons.Itwasbasicallyhedisappeared.Notlikethepolicewereconcerned,justhehadbeenaverypublicfigureandthensuddenlyhesortofdisappearedoutofthepubliceye.Andsothispodcasterwaslike,"Iwanttofindoutwhathappenedandtrackhimdown."

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Anditwasavery,verypopular,butalotofpeoplewerelike,"hmm,thatseemslikeareallyinappropriatewaytouseapublicplatform."

Ames: 04:59 Right.It'skindanotfairtoRichard.

Hannah(Host): 05:01 Yeah.

Ames: 05:01 Maybehedidn'twanttobefound.

Hannah(Host): 05:03 Well,hemadeitprettyclearthathedidn'twanttobefoundbyleavingthepubliceye,so.

Ames: 05:07 [Laughs]Right,right.

Hannah(Host): 05:08 Yeah.

Ames: 05:08 Sothere'syourconsent.

Hannah(Host): 05:09 Yeah.

Ames: 05:09 Imean,Ithinkaboutthatalottoowiththe,thatShitTownpodcast.Alittledifferent,butjust--

Ames: 05:13 Yeah.

Ames: 05:14 --howIdon'trememberwhomadethat,buthowhesortofrationalizedhisdecisionstooutthatmaincharacter.

Hannah(Host): 05:24 Yeah.

Ames: 05:24 I'mkindoflike,"Hmmm,Idunno.That'sstillprettyproblematicinmyopinion,but..."

Hannah(Host): 05:29 Yup.

Ames: 05:30 Butitwasawesome.Podcasting,so....

Hannah(Host): 05:36 Itwaswell-producedpodcasting.

Ames: 05:37 Wellthereyougo.Thereyougo.

Hannah(Host): 05:38 Yeah.

Ames: 05:39 Absolutely.

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Ames: 05:39 Yeah.Which,whichIthink,withthismedium,canoftenfeellikeitmeansthesamethingasgoodpodcasting.

Ames: 05:46 Right.

Hannah(Host): 05:46 Becauseit'ssowellproducedpodcastisveryseductive.

Ames: 05:49 Right.Yes.Andthere'salotofitthatiskindofnotverywelldoneor,orIguessit'srougharoundtheproductionedges.Right?

Hannah(Host): 05:58 Mmhmm.

Ames: 05:58 So,sothenthingsstandoutliketheystandoutwayabove.

Hannah(Host): 06:02 Yeah.Italsodependsontheaestheticsthatyou'regoingfor.IhadareallyinterestingconversationwithascholarofjazzandradicalimprovisationatapanelthatIwasdoingaboutpodcastingandhewaslike,youknow,thepleasureforhimoflisteningtoapodcastisthepotentialofradicalamateurism.

Ames: 06:22 Oh.

Hannah(Host): 06:22 Andthatincludesthesortofroughnessoftheaudiorecording.Like,wheredoyougettolistentononprofessionalaudioproductionandwhatdoesthatopenupintermsofconversationsyoucanhaveandvoicesyougettoencounter.Ifpodcastingmovesinthedirectionoflikeeverythingneedstobeprofessionalandpolishedandsoundexactlythesame,thenyoukindoflosethatmessyedgeofit.

Ames: 06:47 Yeah,Iagreewiththat.Ithinkthatoneofthethingsthatexcitesmeaboutitisthatwhenyoumovetopodcasting,theaudio,well,theformscanopenupsomuch,right.Whatyoucandowithanygiven,likepodcastoverall,theworditselftomean"oneshow"oreachindividualepisode,orwhateveryou'retalkingabout.Andthat'ssomethingI'vebeeninterestedininanyway.So...Arewestarted?

Hannah(Host): 07:12 Yeah,we'relikefiveminutesin.Okay.Sothisiswherewe'restarting.[Laughs]

Ames: 07:18 Sonoprep.Alright.

Hannah(Host): 07:19 No,no,there'sneveranyprep.

Ames: 07:21 There'sneveranyprep?

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Hannah(Host): 07:21 You'reseeingbehindthemethodnow;there'sneveranyprep.

Ames: 07:25 Wow.

Hannah(Host): 07:25 Yeah.

Ames: 07:26 Wow.Ihadnoidea.

Hannah(Host): 07:26 Juststarttalkingatsomepoint.

Ames: 07:27 Okay.Allright,so,sowhatdoyouwanttoknow?What'sthequestion?

Hannah(Host): 07:36 [Laughs]Yougot,youbecameawareofbeinginterviewed?Oh,no!

Ames: 07:38 Allofasudden,yeah.

Hannah(Host): 07:40 Yeah.Sothisis,yourepisodeispartofasortofarcthatI'mdoingspecificallyaboutpodcasting.I'mjustgoingtoendthisseasonwithalittlebitofametaarcaboutotherfeministpodcasters,specificallywhoareinterestedinpodcastingasawayof,let'ssay,makingformsofexpertisethatareusuallylockedwithininstitutionalstructures,morepublicandmoreaccessible.

Ames: 08:06 Right.

Hannah(Host): 08:07 AndI'mreallyinterested,youareoneofa,Ithinkstillquiteasmallhandfulofacademicswhoareplayingwiththepossibilitiesofpodcastingasawayofdoingscholarshippublicly.AndsoI'dreallyliketoknowsortofhowyoucametothemedium.

Ames: 08:22 Yes,that'sagreatquestion.Inthepodcast,my,I,I'mgoingtosayfirstbecauseit'sthefirstone,andI'monnowplanningasecondproject.I'llgettothatinaminute.Butthefirstpodcast,Ineverintendedtobeapodcast,oritwasnotmyplan.MypodcastiscalledMastersofTextwithmyfriendRyanTruman.Andwehada--

Hannah(Host): 08:48 It'sagoodname.

Ames: 08:48 Yeah,it'sgoodname,realgoodname.Actuallyweare,wearequiteproud.Andessentially,youknow,hewasafriendofmineandweweretalkingoneday.Hegotmehookedonpodcasting.Iwasgoingofftowriteandbeonmysabbaticalaloneforlike

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thissixweekperiod,andhe'slike,"Ithinkyoumightwanttolistentothesethings."Iwaslike,"allright,cool."SoIstartedlisteningwhenIcameback,wereadthisbooktogether,SbyJ.J.AbramsandDougDorstandwejustrecordedourselves.Wethoughtitwouldbethisotherproject,right?Likewereadthistogether,talkedaboutit,andbytheendofthesummerhekindofjustsaid,"it'smygoal.It'smylife'sgoaltohaveapodcast.It'sjustlikeabucketlistgoal.""So,well,I,I,I'lldoitwithyouifyoudoitaboutwhatIwant."

Hannah(Host): 09:35 [Laughs]Great.

Ames: 09:35 So,so,andhesaid,"Idon'tcarewhatit'sabout."SoIidentifyasacreativecriticalscholar,andIthinkthatthat'swherethisworkkindofintersectsaswell.Sowhenandhowdoartisticformsandscholarlyformscometogether?Socreativenonfiction,isaclearareaforme.That'soneofmygenresIwritein.Butratherthansaying,"oh,thatonlyworksoverhere,"or"scholarlywriting'sonlyoverthere,"Ithinkabouthowtheartisticprocesscanbeunderstoodasaresearchmethodology.Right?Sohowismymakingalsoaboutmythinking?Idon'treallythinkyoucanpullthemapart.That'swhyIidentifythatway.Andpodcastingislike,Irealizedwhenwestartedmakingit,I'vealwaysbeeninterestedinrecording.Andwhathappenedwas,Ithinkwhenwemovedfromliketaperecording,likealiteraltape.SowhenIwasinsixthgrade,Ithink,weweregiventhesetaperecordersandtoldtogohomeandrecordabunchofregularthingsinourhouseandcomeback.Andthentheyplayedthemintheclassroomandtheinstructor,well,"instructure,"listentome,teacher--

Hannah(Host): 10:43 [Laughs]

Ames: 10:43 --slowedcomedownandspedthemup.Andthenwe,Istartedthinkingabouthowsoundworked,andthenIbecamereally,really,reallyintothemixtapebutnotjusttouseabunchofsongsbuttosplicethesongsup,becauseyoucoulddothatonatapetotapeoldschoolmachine.YouknowwhatI'mtalkingabout?

Hannah(Host): 11:03 Yep.

Ames: 11:03 AndCDs,wellCDsfuckedallthatupforadecade,right?Ididn'thavethesoftwarethatIcouldlikekeepthatcreativepracticegoing.

Hannah(Host): 11:12 Yeah.

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Ames: 11:13 AndsoIgotdisinterestedinit.Butnowitfeelslikethewaythepodcastworksinthatkindof,alotoftheworkthatI'vedonehasbeenvoxpop.Soyouknow,TheCutUp,thosekindofformsareinterestingtome.That'sareally,reallylongwindedanswer.

Hannah(Host): 11:27 [Laughs].

Ames: 11:27 ThatIdon'tevenknowhowIgottoit.

Hannah(Host): 11:30 It's,it'sreally,itremindsme,wehavebeencorrespondingabitoveremailandIatsomepointyouweretalkingaboutreallyoneofthecentralpleasuresofdoingpodcastsasascholar,beingthatsortofaDIYmakerapproachtoit.Andit'sinterestingbecauseIhavethoughtaboutpodcastingaspartofmakerpedagogyanda,sortof,makerbasedapproachtodoingscholarship.ButwhenIgotthatemailfromyou,Iwasrightinthemidstofproposing,I'mworkingwithalargeSSHRChereinCanada.SSHRCislikeourNEH.

Ames: 12:05 Mmhmm.

Hannah(Host): 12:05 Isthatyourbighumanitiesfunding?

Ames: 12:07 Yeah.Thethingthatdoesn'thaveanymoneyinitanymore?

Hannah(Host): 12:09 Yeah,yeah.Westill,westilldo.

Ames: 12:11 Goodforyou.

Hannah(Host): 12:12 Soyeah.Oh,yeah.SoI'm,I'mpartofthisbigSSHRCgrant,calledSpokenWeb,whichisdigitizingtheliteraryaudioarchivesatinstitutionsacrossthecountry,andcreatinga,sortof,collectiveonlineresourceforalloftheseliteraryaudioarchives.

Ames: 12:32 That'shuge.

Hannah(Host): 12:32 It'samazing.It'sagreatproject.Tonsoflibrariansandarchivistsonboardsothatthere'llbereallyconsistentsearchablemetadataandreallyhighquality,wellpreserveddigitalrecordings.Lotsofreallyinteresting,likethere'satonofpoetsinvolvedintheproject.Likeit'sareally,it'sareallycoolprojectandtheybroughtmeontohelpmakeapodcastthathelpstodisseminatesomeoftheworkthat'shappening.

Ames: 12:55 That'sawesome.Howcoolisthat?

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Hannah(Host): 12:57 It'sreallygreat.Itisreallydelightfultobeapersonpeoplethinkofaslike,"ohtheymakepodcasts."I'mlike,"IsupposeIdo."

Ames: 13:06 [Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 13:06 ButIhadtofigureoutsortofhowtopitchthestructureofasinglepodcast,asinseries,thatisbeingcollaborativelycreatedacrossahugenetworkofpeople,andhowtobalancemultiplicityofformandmultiplicityofvoicewiththekindsofconsistencythatareexpectedofaserialmedium,thatithastobeidentifiablythesamepodcastwhilehavingspaceforpeopletomakethemthewaytheywanttomakethem.

Ames: 13:34 Yes.

Hannah(Host): 13:35 AndIthinkmyoriginalpitchleanedtoofarinthedirectionoflike,cool,youjustprovidecontentandwe'llmakesurethere'saproductionteamwhowillputthingstogetherandthenwhenyourespondedinthisemailandsaidlike,"Ithinkthepleasureofpodcastingisreallygainedtogetyourhandsontheonthesoftwareandreallyfuckaroundwiththeaudioandseewhatyoucando.Likeit'sgotthisDIYappealtoit."Iwaslike,"Ohyeah,Ineedtoletpeopleactuallymakeup.LikeIneedtoletpeoplegetinthereandplayaroundwithwhatyoucando."

Ames: 14:06 Yes,tothedegreethattheywantto,right?

Hannah(Host): 14:08 I'mtryingtoreleasecontrolalittlebitoftheideaofwhatitlooksliketo,tocollaboratewithsuchalargegroupofpeopleonaprojectlikethis.

Ames: 14:17 Right.That'sexactly,that'sexactlyright.Sothathasmethinkingreally,reallyquicklyaboutthenextprojectthat...Ithought,IthoughtIwasgoingtodoaprojectjustbymyselfcalled“LettersFromAmes.”AndIhadthisbigideathatIwouldhaveitbesomewherebetweenqueerrhetoricsandqueerliterature,andthatIwould,oh,Idunno,doallkindsofthingsaboutmessingaroundwithandextendingtheideasofepistolaryforms.SoImightwriteletterstopeople,likedoreviewsofcurrentbooksasletters,sinceIknowalotoftheauthors.Soinsteadofbeingacritique,it'sreally,itinvitesthisconversationandmaybethentheywouldcomeonandblah,blahblah.Butthatreallyfeelslike,itjustdidn'tfeelcorrectforsomereason.

Hannah(Host): 15:01 Okay.

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Ames: 15:01 Andmaybetheletterreallystillneedstobeonthepage.SoIkindofputthatoverhere.I'mjustlike,"that'sstillanideaforthefuture,butthenmypartnerisgettingaPhDindesignandshe'sinterestedinfeministmethodsanddiversity,equity,inclusionindesign.Andoneofhercolleagueswaslike,"oh,Iwantuptodoa,Iwanttohaveapodcastonthat."AndIwaslike,"oh,Iwanttoedit."Soyoucoulddo,youcandosomanythings.Sowiththisyoucouldhavetwoorthreepeoplewho,eachoneofthemgetstheirowninterview,andthenIwouldeditit,butIwouldeditfromtheperspectiveoflikeadevelopmenteditor,ornotjustatecheditortogetittobeclean,butthenthentalktothemaboutthesepieces.Andthentheycouldhavethreeinterviews.Andthenaftertheyhavethethreeinterviews,thethreeofthoseinterviewersgetbacktogethertotalkaboutwhatreallysparkedtheirinterestabouttheotherones.SothisisthethingthatTrumanandItalkaboutinourlastepisodeofMastersofText,iswhatdidwelearnaboutscholarlypodcasting?Andhe,hecameupwithhisnotionofcategories.Sohelikestoorderideas,butthetheme,theideaisthat,thathowandwhenandwherewecreatenewknowledge,that'swhatwecallscholarshipgenerally,right?

Hannah(Host): 16:17 Mmhmm.Yep.

Ames: 16:17 Notjust,"Oh,I'mgoingtointerviewyouandyou'regoingtotellmeallthisstuffthat'salreadyinabooksomewhere."

Hannah(Host): 16:22 Yeah.

Ames: 16:22 AndIthinkthatwhatI'vebeenreallyimpressedwiththeSecretFeministAgendaiswhenthosemomentsopen.SoyouandIaremoredoingthatrightnow,asopposedtowhenyouinterviewsomeonewho'sjusttellingyouaboutwhattheydo.

Hannah(Host): 16:36 Yeah.

Ames: 16:37 AndIthinkyoucandoallofit,right?Thisisn'ta"thatorthatkind"ofthing,butsowhenyou'redescribing,what'sthenameofthisnewprojectforyou,again?

Hannah(Host): 16:44 SpokenWeb.

Ames: 16:45 SpokenWeb.Sowhenyou'redescribingthatproject,IjustgetsuperjazzedbecausenowIcansee,it'skindoflikethismorerecentdesignjusticepodcastorwhateverwe'regoingtodo,isthinkingofitnotexactlylikeajournal,butyou'reopeningthespacewhereyouoffersomeoneawaytoplayaroundinanidea

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thatalsohasascholarlyreviewprocess.Thisopenpostreviewprocess,bywhichpeoplechoosetolistentoit.

Hannah(Host): 17:20 Mmhmm.

Ames: 17:20 Ortomeitgoesintoclassroomsanditbecomesatext.

Hannah(Host): 17:25 Yeah.

Ames: 17:25 I'vebeenthinkingalotabouthow,cuzI,ItrytousepodcastswhenIcaninclassrooms,butalotofthemaresoinformationalbased.Itdoesn'tfeellikethere'senoughtheretogivestudentssomethingtosinktheirteethintosotospeak.

Hannah(Host): 17:39 Mmhmm.

Ames: 17:39 ButSecretFeministAgendaabsolutelydoes.I'mlike,Icouldgiveawholeseasonjustsay,"thisistheirclass."Andnow,andIwonderwhenpeoplecoulddothat.YouknowwhatImean?It'salot.

Hannah(Host): 17:48 Yeah.

Ames: 17:48 That'salot.

Hannah(Host): 17:49 [Laughs]I'mthinking,ImeanthequestionsIthinkthatpodcastinginevitablyraisesaboutcategoriesofscholarlywork,Ithinkarereallyvaluablebecausetheypushustorethinktheeasywaysthatwecategorizetheworkthatwedo.Andeventhoughit'ssupposedtobea,sortof,evenspreadbetweenresearchandserviceandteaching,andthewaythatthere'salwaystheimplicitorexplicithierarchyofthosethings:research,firstteaching,secondserviceway,way,waydowninthebottom.

Ames: 18:21 Right.

Hannah(Host): 18:22 AndI'mthinking,youknow,aboutyoutakingonaprojectwhereyouarepositioningyourselfasproducer,firstandforemost.Andthatthat'sreallyinterestingasa,sortof,pushinlikewhatitmeanstodopublicscholarship,whichis,"I'mnotevengoingtocentermyownvoiceinthis."It'sgoingtobereally,sortof,pushinghowascholarlycontributioncanconsistineditorialintervention,infacilitatingcollaborativeconversationsin,inworkthatIthinkisfundamentallyfeministwork,becauseyouknow,theworkofbringingtogethercommunitiesandmakingconnectionIthinkreallyisfeminist

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communitybuildingwork,andassuchasjustsophenomenallyundervaluedintheuniversity.Anditseems,itseemsverydaringtometobelike,"yeah,mynextproject:producing."

Ames: 19:15 Well,it'snotsodaringbecauseI'vebeendoingthisawhile.

Hannah(Host): 19:18 [Laughs].

Ames: 19:18 ButIthinkit'sjustthatI,I'verealizedhowimportantthatis.AndoneofthereasonsIcanseethisassovaluable,Isupposeisa,Ihavethispositionrightnow,I'mtheAssociateProvostforFacultyResearchandDevelopment,andoneofmyjobsistobethinkingaboutthis,tohelpfacultypreparefortenureandpromotion.Right?AndsoColumbiaCollegeChicago,Ithinkisdistinctiveforanumberofreasons.Oureducation,etc.,etc.Butreallyitisinthinkingaboutwhothefacultyare.Andifwe,wehavetostartwiththeideathateveryone'sanacademic,butweareequalpartsscholar,practitioner,artist.

Hannah(Host): 20:01 Mmhmm.

Ames: 20:01 AndinanR1kindofaplacescholar,justlike90pluspercentofthepeople,maybethere'sanartschool,maybethere'sadesignschool,they'rewayonthefringes,andeverythingthey'veeverhadtodohasbeenmatchedupagainstthequoteunquote"goldstandards"ofscholarlyproduction.

Hannah(Host): 20:18 Yeah.

Ames: 20:18 Andit'sbeeninterestingtome.Sotheartistslike,"oh,wellyouhaveamonograph,youhaveasinglepersonshow.Soyourpublishinghouse..."versuswhereitis.Likewe'rejustgonnamaketheseequal,equal,equal,equalthings.Andthethingaboutpeoplewhoarepractitioners,evenasacademics,theyarepractitioners.They'vebeenhired,they'repartoftheacademy,andtheirstuffhastocount.Theyhaveareallyhardtimebecausethemechanismsforfrontandpeerreviewareverydifferent.SoIwriteforanewspaperandmyeditorwasmypeerediting.Thatwasmypeer.

Hannah(Host): 20:52 Mmhmm.

Ames: 20:52 Butreallyit'saboutwhat'sthetractionafterthat?Whathappensafterthatarticle,orIdoapodcast,orIdoablog?Thosearelegitforms,butwedon'thavefrontendandweshouldn'tmaybe.AndI,that'swhyIgotsoexcitedabout

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learningaboutyourprojectbecauseIwas,Iwasputtingtogethermy,myapplicationforfullprofessor--

Hannah(Host): 21:12 [Laughs].

Ames: 21:12 --andIhavealotofthingsthatareonline,andIhavevideoessays,andIhaveaudio,andIhavethispodcastandIdon'tknowtowhatdegreethatwillorwillnotbecounted,butIwantedtostarttocreatethemechanismandtheargumentsforittoatleastbeseen.Sothat'soneofthereasonsI'msuperinterestedinthis.AndnowthatI'vekindofarticulatedallthatformyself,Icansay,well,"thisissuperlegitscholarlywork,"becauseit'salsogoingtomovemetoassistthisgroupofwomenindoingthisDEIdesignpodcastina,it'sadifferenttotallyfield,right?

Hannah(Host): 21:52 Yeah.

Ames: 21:52 Yes.

Hannah(Host): 21:53 [Laughs].

Ames: 21:53 Sothat's,that'show,that'showIgotthere.

Hannah(Host): 21:57 Sothisconversationaboutpeerreviewandhowyouevaluateimpactisactually,IwashavingaconversationonTwitterthisverymorningabouthowyouevaluateimpactinscholarship.Andit'ssuchaninterestingquestionformebecauseIdothink,youknow,theenduringvalueofpeerreviewisthatitisawayofestablishing,youknow,the,thevalueofmeritofscholarship,regardlessofwhetheranyoneelseeverreadsit.AndIthinkthatthere's,Ithinkthatthere'sspaceforthatstill.Tosaythat,youknow,withinasmallscholarlycommunity,theremaynotbenumericallyahugenumberofpeopleinterestedinthiswork,thatdoesn'tautomaticallymeanit'snotvaluable,andthepeerreviewisawaymuchlikethesortofcaliberofthepressthatyoupublishwithorthe,the,youknow,thestatusofthegallerythatyouexhibitin.Likeit'sawayofsayinglike,"evenifthisisn'tgonnamakeatonofmoneyorgarneratonofclicks,withinacommunityofpractice,peoplehavelookedatthisandsaid,'yes,thisworkmatters.'"Andthatthatishelpfulandit'salsodeeplylimiting.Andsowhenwestartthinkingaboutworkthatwewanttofindalargeraudienceandstartthinkinglike,"okay,soit'slessthesortofgatekeepingfunctionofpeerreviewandmore,let'sputthisworkoutthere,andseehowitcirculates,andhowitgetspickedupandwhatkindsofimpactithas."Theactualquestionofhowtoevaluateimpactformeissuchan

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interestinglyslipperyone,becauseIdothinkthatthereisinthingslikethealt-metricscommunity,there'sthistendencytosaylike,"well,wemeasureimpactbyhowmanypeoplehavelookedatathingorclickedonathing."Andthathasbeenareallyusefultoolforlike,theopenaccesscommunitytoargueforopenaccess.

Ames: 23:46 Mmhmm.

Hannah(Host): 23:46 They'relike,seeyoupaywallthisjournalarticle.Nobodyeverseesit.Youmakeanmakeitopenaccess,athousandpeoplereadit.That'sfantastic.Great.Loveit.Lovemorepeoplehavingaccesstoresearchpopularitycannotbethemeasureofimpact.

Ames: 24:00 Absolutelynot.Agreed.

Hannah(Host): 24:01 It's,it'ssoscary.

Ames: 24:03 Right,right.So,ratherthanitbeingpopular,Isupposeit's,it'sthinkingabouthowwetalkaboutitinthecommunitieswherewevaluethepeerreviewinthefirstplace.

Hannah(Host): 24:16 Mmhmm.

Ames: 24:16 Soforexample,youknow,IthinkMastersofTexthasaveryweenumberofpeoplewhohavedownloadedit,westillhadagoalofgettingaboveahundredsubscribersandwehitthat.Butifyouthinkabouthowsmallourfieldisoverall,andwe,ifyoutakesoundwritingasanevensmallerpartofthefield,that'sprettydecent,right?

Hannah(Host): 24:37 Yeah.

Ames: 24:38 AndhowIknowabouttheimpactisthatIgetthese,withoutputtingoutmyshingleoranything,Imightgetinvitedtogodoatalk,orIgotoaconferenceandI'llhavesomebodycomeupbehindme,thishashappenedanumberoftimesnow"[Gasp]You'reAmes.""Yeah.I,whoareyou?"

Hannah(Host): 24:56 [Laughs].

Ames: 24:56 "Ilistentoyou,Ihavelistenedtoyou."Right?Andthe,andtheotherthingthat'sreallyinterestingaboutthisworkismoretimeoutthere,youcangetmoretraction.Soasthisareaofinterestbuildsforpeople,we'regoingtowanttogoandsay,"ohwait,whathaveyoulisteningto?"Andsothree,fouryearslater,evenafterthepodcast'sallover,somebodymaybelisteningtoit.

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Hannah(Host): 25:18 Mmhmm.

Ames: 25:18 Sothentheimpactis,it'stheaccretionidea,right?Overtimeandnotliketheoneoff,onlyonthefrontendwhere"well,you'vegotthatpublisher,boom,we'redone."

Hannah(Host): 25:31 Yup.

Ames: 25:31 Thebookwaspublished.

Hannah(Host): 25:32 Yeah.

Ames: 25:32 Andthatcountsasimpactsomehow.

Hannah(Host): 25:36 [Laughs].

Ames: 25:36 Fully,completely.

Hannah(Host): 25:37 Yeah.

Ames: 25:38 Not,not,notthatitisn't.

Hannah(Host): 25:39 Thefactofthething.

Ames: 25:40 Yeah,thefactofthething.Andonthisend,thefactofthethingdoesn'tmatter.SoIdothinkit's,Ithinkit'sreallylookingatboth/and.Both,howdowe,howdowestarttotalkinareallysmartwayaboutwhatitmeanstobeapublicintellectual?Andsotheclicksdomatter.Butalsoatthesametime,howarewe,that'swhytheprojectyou'redoingwithWilfred--

Hannah(Host): 26:04 WilfridLaurierUniversityPress.

Ames: 26:05 Right,whereyouhavetwopeoplereviewingiteachseason.That,thatthetwoiskindof,it'senough.

Hannah(Host): 26:11 Yeah.

Ames: 26:11 Becausethatgivesyousomuchforyoutoreflecton,andtomoveforwardwith,andtomakechanges,andit'sinprocess.Youknow,theotherthingthat'ssoawesomeaboutpodcastsbecauseofthewaytheyworkthiswayisthatweareallgettingthisbackendunderstandingofhowyourthinkinghaschangedorhowyou'redoingthis.Youdon'tgetthe,ifIgetanessay,Idon'toftenknowwherethatthingstarted,howmanypeoplereadit,howmanypeoplegaveyouhelpfulfeedback,howlongittook,whattheideadevelopmentwasthere.AndIthinkthe

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waythatthepodcastingpullsthelensbackonthat,orpullstheshroudaway,orwhatever,that'ssohelpful,notonlytoemergingacademicsbuttothepublictonotthinkthat,youknow,thesejustcomespoutingoutofourheadsomehow.

Hannah(Host): 27:04 [Laughs]Yep.

Ames: 27:04 Likewehavetheseideas.Youknowthere'sahumancomponentthat'sreallyhugetothat.

Hannah(Host): 27:10 [Laughs]Yeah,absolutely.Imeanitinalotofthiskindofscholarship,itrevealsthethinkingprocess.Itrevealsthe,thesometimes,sortof,productivelackofclarityaroundideas,andIalsothinkreallyhelpfullyembodiesthem.Right?Thatthepodcast,despitebeing,youknow,asortofasinglesensemedium,sotospeak,comeswiththesenseoftheembodiednessofyourhost.Youhearthewaythatavoiceresonatesthroughabody,youcanheartone,youcanhearvulnerability,youcanhearaffect,allofthesethingscomethroughinawaythatthatabsolutelycanalsocommunicateinwriting,butthatthenormsofscholarlywritinghavehaveoftenrigorouslytrainedoutofus.I'm,I'mtryingrightnowtowriteabookbasedonSecretFeministAgenda--

Ames: 28:04 Oh!

Hannah(Host): 28:04 --Thatsortofdrawsoutsomeofthemainthemesinthepodcastandsomeofthethinkingthatthepodcasthaspromptedinmeandtryingtofigureout.Itwaseasierformetomovefromtraditionalscholarlywritingintodoingsomethingtotallydifferentwithpodcastingbecausepodcastingfeelstotallydifferent.Goingbacktowritingandtryingtofigureouthowtodothatdifferently,I'mfindingharder.ButIthinkyoucameintopodcastingviaalreadydoingthatkindofwriting,correct?

Ames: 28:33 Correct.Right.SoIthinkthatthat'swhyIwantedto,that'swhyIgotreallyexcitedaboutitbecauseitallowsmetopushscholarlyformfarther.Sothat'swhyIcallitapartofmyresearchmethodtodothis,andthenbydoingthisworkIcanthinkabout,"wellwhatdoesitmeanwhenIgobacktothepage?HowdoIgobackandforthbetweenthesedifferentmediumsandthepage?"AndIdefinitely,personally,Ilikeaudiobetterthanvideotoworkin.

Hannah(Host): 28:58 Mmhmm.

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Ames: 28:58 That'salotformetosortofnegotiate.Idon'tknowhowtoelsetosaythat,butI,butI'vedonesome,somevideowork.Actually.Ididn'treallydoit;mysondidtheeditingcauseIwaslike,"Ican'tdothishereyoudothis."

Hannah(Host): 29:10 You'retheYouTubegeneration,youfigureitout.

Ames: 29:14 That'sexactlyrightand,andyouhavetocollaboratealotwhenyoudothatkindofwork.Ineverlikedwritingthescholarlypaper;Ialwaysresisteditfromthegetgo.Iknewhowtodoit,itjustdidn't,itdidn'toffermeenoughspacetoactuallyplayaroundinandwiththesentence.AndIthinkthesentencebecamesuchatooltothequoteunquote"writingupresearch"insteadofanartisticorthewaythatwordsbecomeamedium.AndIdon'tknowwhatelsetosayaboutthatotherthanIjustdidn't,Ijustdidn'tlikeit.Itjustseemedsolimitingtome.ButsoIcanappreciatethat.Icanappreciatethatit'sa,thatitwouldbeyou,it'ssortalike,"ohcrap,Ican'tgobacknow.Ican'tgobacktothisthingthatwaskindofformulaicandeasy."Isthatfair?

Hannah(Host): 30:01 Yeah,yeah.

Ames: 30:02 Okay.that's,that'swhatI'msaying.Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 30:04 Yeah.Andthat'swhatIactuallyalwaysreallylikedaboutthescholarlyessayisthatI,I'm,I'ma,agoodreplicatorofform.LikeIcanlookatthewaythatsomethingelsehasdoneandbelike,"cool,Icanreproducethat.Absolutely,absolutelyknowhowtoreproducethat."AndIhavealwaysfounditquitecomfortinghowscholarshipreallyisjustaseriesofveryconcreteandspecificgenres,thatonceyoulearnhowtowriteandworkwithinthem,theyjustkeepproliferating,right?LikeIknowhowtowriteagrantapplication,Iknowhowtowriteaconferenceapplication,Iknowhowtowriteanarticle,Iknow...LikeIknowhowtodothesethingsandtheydojusthavethese,thesereally,sortof,familiarandreproduciblestructurestothem.AndnowthatIhavegottenasenseofhowmuchfurthermyownthinkinggetspushedbyexperimentingwithformandbymovingintodifferent,differentgenresanddifferentmediums,I'mfindingitvery,veryboringtogobacktoascholarlyarticle.AndreallyrealizedthewayinwhichlikeIkindofalreadyknow,likeIcomeupwiththeideainmyheadandI'mlike,wellIalreadyknow.Iknowwhatthisisgoingtosay.LikedoIwanttospendtwoweekswritingdownathingwhenIalreadyknowwhatit'sgoingtosay?No,Iwantto,Iwanttogointosomething,notsurewhatit'sgoingtosayandfigureitoutasIgo.

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Ames: 31:25 Yes!That'sacreativecriticalscholar!

Hannah(Host): 31:29 [Laughs].

Ames: 31:29 AndIdon'tknowthatthatisn'talotmorepeopleorsomething.Ijustdon'tknowthatwe,weknewthatsomethingwouldbeavailabletousinadifferentway.Anditdoesn'tmeanthatotherfolkscan'tkeepusingthose,thoseveryclear,triedandtrue,everyone-knows-what-they-areforms.ButIthink,youknow,soI'vebeenatthiskindofawhilenow,andIdoknowthattherearemorespacesforcreativecriticalscholarshipand,andforme,inmyfield,theykindofcomeoutofthecomputersandwritingareabecausewetalkallaboutmultimodalcomposition.Andwhat'sbeenreallyinterestingisthatthat'sallfineforourstudentstodo,butalotofprofessorsweren'tdoingthatuntilrecently.SonowIamchallengingpeoplelike,"whyareyouhavingyourstudentsdoallthat?Butyou'veneverdoneone,youknow?Yeah.Whereasbeforeitwaseasytosay,"well,I'vewrittenscholarlyessays.I'mgoingtodo..."Istillthinkthatthe,youknow,thetraditionalstudentessay'snotevenascholarlypaper;it'ssomeotherweirdformthatthey,Idon'teven...And,andColumbia'snotaplacethatwe,thatwe,thatwe'veeverreallydonethat.

Hannah(Host): 32:36 Mmhmm.

Ames: 32:36 Butyouknow,youwantyourstudentsto,Imean,it'srequiredamultimodalcomposingisapartofamostK-12curriculumnow,curricula.Andthenyoucometocollegeand,youknow,yourprofessorsmayormaynothaveeverevenseenthisstuffreally.Notreally.Andsohowdotheygrapplewithwhatitmeanstoassessit?It'sallthatkindofstuff.Ijustthinkabouthowthey'reallintertwined.Andsohowdoweaddressthatwhenwe'rethinkingaboutalloftheseformsandallthiskindofknowledgeandwhatweprivilegeinthesespacesandwhen,whendoweprivilegethisform?Andyouknow,you,yousoundlikearhetoriciantome."Well,IknowhowtousethiswhenI'lluseit,whatit'sfor,"andthat,that'swhatIhopewecanhelpstudentswith.

Hannah(Host): 33:26 Yeah.AndIdothinkthatthereareother,thattherearepeoplewhousethoseformsandreally,inwaysthatarereallydifferentfromhowIusethem.Right?LikeIdon'twanttobelike,"haha,thetraditionalessaycangetintoagarbage.

Hannah(Host): 33:39 Like,Ireadotherpeople'sscholarlyarticlesandI'mlike,"Ohyeah,you'redoingsomethingreallyinterestingwiththis."Andyouknow,Ithinkit,itdepends,inpart,onhowpeoplethink

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andhowpeopleprocessideas.AndIknowcolleaguesofminesayittakesthemayeartowriteanessayandI'mlike,"whatdoyou,whatareyoudoinginthatyear?"Butlike,they'rethinkingdeeplyabout,likebythetimetheyarriveattheessay,it'stheresultofthislongprocessofwriting,right?Soit'sjustwheredoesthatthinkinghappenforyou?Andforme,thedialoguehasproventobeareallyproductivewayformythinkingtohappen.Thatsortofdrivesthesethingsforward,whetherthat'stheliteralconversationthathappensonaninterviewepisodeorifit'sthekindofimagineddialogueI'mhavingwithlistenersintheminiepisodes.Like,I'mstill,I'mthinkingalongsideaninterlocutorandmoreawareofthepresenceofanaudiencethathasoftenaresistantaudience,oracuriousaudience,oryouknow,anaudiencethat'sgonnapushmeonmyideasinawaythatIhavenotmyselfbeenawareofanaudiencewhenI'vewrittenscholarlyarticles.I'vebeenmoreawareofanexpectation.

Ames: 34:50 AndI,right,andsoIthinkrightthere,youknow,theSecret,SecretFeministAgenda,asaproject,canreallystarttoclaimthisgroundofpushingyoutowardfeministscholarlyforms.Sowhatyoujustarticulated,right,isthisideathatyou'rethinkingandtheformofwritinghasbeenimpactedbyadialogiccollaborationwithanumberofhumanbeingsoverthecourseoftime,whereasbuiltinto,andwe'lljustmakeitthe,the,themoststereotypical,staid,traditionalformofthescholarlyessaythatisabsolutelynotinthere.They,you'renot,you'renothavingaconvowithsomebody.

Hannah(Host): 35:31 [Laughs].

Ames: 35:31 Eventhoughthatpersonmayhavetalkedtosomebodyabunchtogettothisidea,itdoesn'trevealit.

Hannah(Host): 35:37 Mmhmm.

Ames: 35:37 It'snothonestthatway.Andmaybetheydidn't.

Hannah(Host): 35:39 Yeah.

Ames: 35:39 Maybetheyjustwroteitupintwoweeksorsomething.ButIdothinkthatit's,it'showourpractice,sohowthisfeministpracticeandthismakingpracticeactuallyimpactsallofscholarship,likethat'swhat'sinterestingtome.Andsothat'swhyandhowIwouldfeelcomfortable.AndIhadaquestion,doyouhaveyourstudentsmakepodcasts?Haveyoudonethatyet?DidImissthatsomewhere?

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Hannah(Host): 36:08 [Laughs]Ihavemystudentsmakewhateverkindofthingtheywanttomake.

Ames: 36:14 Okay.

Hannah(Host): 36:14 Whichincludespodcasts,ifthat'swhattheydecidetheywanttomake.Andsogenerally,increasingly,theformthatsortoffinalprojectstakeinmycoursesisa,sortofamultimediaprojectinwhichpartoftheassignmentischoosingthemediumthestudentbelievestobethemostappropriatetotheworkthattheywanttodo.Andtheyhavetojustifythechoiceofmedium.Andso,sowe'reinapublishingprogramandIreallywanttopushthemtothinkbeyondnotionsofpublishingasbeingconstrainedaroundprint.

Ames: 36:45 Right.

Hannah(Host): 36:46 Andsoyouknow,whatdoyouwanttodo?Doyouwanttodoazine,doyouwanttodoapostercampaign?Doyouwanttomakeapodcast?Youwanttodoavideoseries?Doyouwanttodolikea3Dartinstallationisathingastudentdid.ThemainassignmentinthegradseminarthatIteacheveryyearaboutthehistoryofpublishingisthatstudentshavetoadoptanitemoutofourrarebooksandspecialcollections.Theydoaresearchpaperonitbasedon,youknow,sortofoldfashionedhistoryresearchpaper,andthentheirfinalassignmentistoremediatetheobjectinwhateverwaytheywant.AndlastyeartwostudentswereworkingontheseoldmapsofVancouverthattheyfound.Andwhattheydidistheytookthemapsandtheysuperimposedthemovercontemporarymapsandtracedthedifferencesinthewaterlines,becausethetransformationofVancouverasanurbanspacehashadalottodowiththebuildingoutandthepavingoverofdifferentwaterways.Andsotheytracedthedifference,andthentheyretracedtheshapesthattheyhadproducedontomusic,like--

Ames: 38:01 Ohyeah.

Hannah(Host): 38:02 --ontoactualsortofmusicstaff,andwroteacompositionbasedontryingtoreproducetheseshapes,andthenrecordeditandtheirfinalproductwasthis,thispieceofmusic.

Ames: 38:19 Yeah.That'samazing.

Hannah(Host): 38:20 Like,Iwouldneverinamillionyearshavebeenlike,"here'swhatIwantyoutodo."

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Ames: 38:25 [Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 38:25 Like,andsolikestudentsandstudentscometomeandarelike,"well,canyougiveussomeexamplesofthingsotherpeoplehavedone?"AndI'mlike,"no,absolutelynot."No,no.IfItellyousomethings,youwillimmediatelybelike,"oh,okay.Ihavetodothat."

Ames: 38:41 Right.

Hannah(Host): 38:41 Belike,"you'regoingtocomeupwithsomethingthat'sawaybetterideathanIevercouldhave.So..."

Ames: 38:45 Andsoinsayingthat,thatgoesbacktocreativepracticeasresearchmethods.Sotheythen,that'san,that'sanartisticproject.That'sanartsproject.

Hannah(Host): 38:54 Yeah.

Ames: 38:54 And,andso,interesting.Sothesearegradstudentsinthisprogram,right?Publishing?

Hannah(Host): 38:59 Yep.

Ames: 38:59 Sotowhatdegree--

Hannah(Host): 39:00 Yep.It'safairlyprofessionalprogram.

Ames: 39:00 --towhatdegreeareyoucollaboratingwithdesignersandartistsandatthefacultylevel?Ifyou'repushingpeopleinthatdirection,likethat's,yeah,reallyinterestingandamazingwork.Andsohowdothey,well,ifit'saprofessionalprogram,Ithinkthat'salittledifferentthaniftheyseethemselvesasgoingofftobescholars.Sohowdowenotletthatjustdrop?"Andthatwasaoneoff.Ididthatinthatclassatonetime.Thatwasreallycool."Buttogetthemtotakethatforwardintotheirownwork,eveniftheirworkisquoteunquote"professional"andtheygotoworkforpressorlibraryorwhatever.

Hannah(Host): 39:30 Yeah.AndIdothinkthatit'salmosteasierinaprogramlikethis.So,youknow,oneofmycolleagues,ourdesigninstructor,likeshe'sabookdesigner.ShehasanMFA,sheisanartist.Thatistheworkthatshedoes.Sheteachesthedesignclasses.Youknow,mycolleaguewhoteachesthemanagementcoursesisafeministartistwithahistoryofrunningfeministmagazine.

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Ames: 39:54 Okay,yeah.Thisisliketheperfectprogram.Thisisawesome.That'sperfect!Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 39:57 It'sgreat.Absolutelyamazing.AndsoIthinkcollectivelywehaveasensethatwewantstudentstomoveoutintotheindustryreallyhavingembracedthepossibilitiesofcreativityinof,oflateralthinking.Right?Andthereisthatwaythatthatkindofcreative,criticalthoughtplaysbetterintoanartsindustrylikepublishingthanitdoesintothekindsofruthlessprofessionalizationthatstillstructurehowwetrainacademics.Sothisthepointthatyoumadeearlierabouthowmanyscholarsaresupercomfortableassigningreallynon-traditionalworktotheirstudents,butthemselveswouldneverdoit.It'ssuchaninteresting,what'sthewordthatI'mlookingfor?Likea...

Ames: 40:45 Conundrum?[Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 40:46 Rupture.Conundrum.Aparadox.

Ames: 40:49 Oxymoron?Nearly,butnot.

Hannah(Host): 40:49 [Laughs]Amismatch.

Ames: 40:51 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 40:52 Somanywords.Butit's,so,itdoessomuchseemtobethecasethatwe're,we'recreativeeverywhereexceptwhatweacceptasourownscholarlyproduction.

Ames: 41:03 Yes.AndIdothinktherearepeoplepushattheedgeofthat,but,buteventhenthe,thelargersystemhasahardtimeseeingitorrecognizingit.And,andthat's,that'sthethingthatI'mnowtryingtofigureouthowtospeaktoordosomethingaboutorwhatever.Idon'tknow.

Hannah(Host): 41:20 Yeah.Well,inthepositionthatyou'reinnow,isthatsomethingthatyoucan,Idon'trememberexactlywhatitwas.Ithadtheword"provost"init--

Ames: 41:27 Yeah.AssociateProvostforFacultyResearch.

Hannah(Host): 41:28 --somethingsomething.[Laughs].

Ames: 41:29 Sortof,itgivesmeaspacetolegitimatelyabouthowtoarticulatetheseideasandIthinkIhelpcertainpeopleatourinstitutionframewhotheyareandthenframetheirworkin

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thesescholarlyways.Right?SoI'mtrainedasascholarandIcanlookoveratthepractitionerandtheartistsintheremaybestrugglingalittledifferentlywiththatbigassignment.Isuppose,itkindoffeelslikeagiantassignmenttome.What,youknow,quoteunquote,"whatdoestheteacherwant?"IfIcanhelptranslatethatforthemalittlebit,IfeellikeI'vedonemyjob.That'snotthesameasimpactingscholarlywork.

Hannah(Host): 42:04 Yeah.

Ames: 42:04 Itis.Ithasalotofimpactedour,atourschool'slevelinourcollegeforthosefacultyandI'm--

Hannah(Host): 42:09 Yeah.

Ames: 42:09 --Iwanttohelpassistantprofessorsdothatandthenhelpeducatethepeoplewhoarethetenuredfacultywhenthey'rereviewingthecases.Likehelpthemsothattheycanseetheargument.Somepeoplewillneverbuyit.Otherpeoplewillbelike,"Whoa,Ineverthoughtaboutthat."SoI'mnotworriedaboutthepeoplewhowillneverbuyit.

Hannah(Host): 42:26 Yeah.

Ames: 42:27 Youhavetoletthosepeoplego.ButIthinkthat,Ithinkyourword"rupture"wasmaybereally,reallygoodchoice,oryouknow,this,thisrip,thistear,thisplace,thisopening,thisaperture,orificethatyoucanlikestickyourfingerinside,explorealittlebit.

Hannah(Host): 42:42 [Laughs]

Ames: 42:42 That's,that'showIthinkaboutthatstuff.Andyou'relike,"oh,what?Thesedon'tlineuprealwell.Thisshowsussomethingthatwemightwanttoconsider.Idon'tdothat,butI'mgoingtosignit."Why?

Hannah(Host): 42:55 Likewhatvaluedoyouthinkithasthatletsyoubringitintotheclassroomandwhydothosevaluesnottranslateintohowyouactuallypracticeyourwork?

Ames: 43:02 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 43:02 AndIconversationthatI'vebeenhavingwithmanypeople,inmanydifferentpositions,islikewhere'sthepressurepointwithinourinstitutionsandourdisciplineswhereyoucanget

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somemovementonthesethings?WehadKathleenFitzpatrickvisitingherelastweek.

Ames: 43:23 Oh,that'ssupercool.

Hannah(Host): 43:24 Yeah,itwaswonderful.

Ames: 43:25 Ohyeah,she'ssomebodyIciteherstuffwhenI'mtalkingaboutthis.

Hannah(Host): 43:28 Yeah,absolutelyright.Inhernewbook,GenerousThinkingisallaboutpublicscholarshipandtheroleofapublicscholar,andIthinkyouwouldlikeit.It's,it'sareallyaboutsortof,feministandcommunityconsciousresearchasthesavinggraceoftheuniversity.Howwe'regoingto,sortof,reimagineourpublicmissionascentraltotheworktheuniversitydoes.Andafterhertalk,somebodyintheaudiencesaidlike,"wellhowisthisactuallygonnabebecomepossible?"Andshesaid,"it'sgoingtotakesomereallybraveuniversitypresidents."AndIwaslike,"wellthat'sneverhappening."Sowhere,causeyoudon'tgettothatpointinuniversitybureaucracyifyou'resomebodywholikestoshakethingsup,atleastI'veseenverylittleevidencethatyoudo.Butanotherrealpressurepoint,itseemstome,istenureandpromotioncommittees,right?Thatwe'redoingthistoourselves,that,thatoftenpeopleathigherlevelsarelessattachedtothespecificitiesofworkandmoreinterestedinthingslikeimpact.Andit'swithindepartmentsthatweareoftenmoreentirelypolicingthekindsofbehaviorthatareandarenotacceptable.

Ames: 44:42 Yeah.AndIdothinkthatwe'llknowwhenthere's,there'straction.Ithinkthere'salittletractionbecausethenyou'llgetaharderpushbackinitially.That'showitgoeswithalotofthings.Right?

Hannah(Host): 44:50 Yeah.

Ames: 44:50 So,yeah,initially,youknow,ifI,ifIgotthroughandabookwasgoodforme,thenabookisgoodforeveryone.

Hannah(Host): 44:58 Yeah.

Ames: 44:58 Well,okay,butyouknow,thatwasliterallyprobablymaybe50yearsagoorwhateverandmaybe40andyes,Idon'tdiscountthatworkevenatinybit.It'sreallyimportant.AndImean,whenyoutalkaboutpressurepoints,Ikeepthinkingaboutjusttheideathattheacademyoverallisunderatremendous

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amountofpressure.Likeourschool,I'mjustlikealotofAmericanuniversities,theywerereallyhithardbythecollapseof2008andweloststudents.

Hannah(Host): 45:32 Mmhmm.

Ames: 45:32 Andthenthedoublewhammythatthisgeneration,there'sjustfewerofthem,physicallyashumans.Therejustaren'tasmany.Andso--

Hannah(Host): 45:41 Wellthat'sanaspectoffallingenrollmentwedon'ttalkaboutalot,huh?

Ames: 45:45 No!Andnot,youknow,Iguessgloballythereare,butthenthere'sthebigpressure;"well,go,gotootherplaces,"andthenyouknow,wehavea,wehaveapresidentwhodoesn'twanttoletalotofpeoplein.Sothatmakeseverythingreallycomplicated.Thatkindofpressureseemstomethat,Idon'tknowhowyet,butit'sgottabeapieceofthispicture.Whatisa21stcenturyeducation?

Hannah(Host): 46:10 Yeah.

Ames: 46:10 Soifyou'rethinkingaboutyourprogram,what'spublishingin21stcentury,what'sa21stcenturyeducationoverall?It'snottheoneIhadin1986orwhatever.That'snotthatone.Thatwasprettygoodthen.Butthere'ssomethingelseitneedstobe.Sohowarewechallengingourselves?LikeIthinkitprobablywasprettysimilarforalmostahundredyears.Andthennow'sthemomentwhereit's,there'salotofchange,alotofpressure.Thedigitalworld,thisMcPuterthingwe'relikelookingintorightnow.

Hannah(Host): 46:40 Yeah[laughs].

Ames: 46:40 Anddoingthisworkitmakesthisworkpossible,whichisallawesome.Butthenwehavetoaccommodateitandwehavetobeabletotalkaboutit.Andwhenyoudothatandyouputitoutthere,thenyouhavetodotheworkoflegitimatingit.Thatbecomesahardpart.

Hannah(Host): 46:55 Yeah.I,acolleagueofmineDeneGrigar,who'sanelectronicliteraturescholar,saidtomeoncethat"halftheworkofdoingnewformsofscholarshipiscredentialingit."Soyouhavetodotheradicalthingandthenyouhavetowritethebookontheradicalthingandyoudothatinthehopesthatthenextpeople

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whocomealonganddotheradicalthingwon'thavetoreadthebookanymore.

Ames: 47:19 Yep.That'swhereIfeellikeIam,Iguess,isthatIfeellikeImadeathing.SonowI'mtryingtofigureoutwhatprojectsdoIdo.What,what'senoughsothatIdon'thavetowritewholebookonit,butIcandothisessayhereorthisessaythere,cuzIdon'tknowthatIwanttospendawholethatmuchtimewritingabookonit,exactly.Italsofeelsmoreakintowhatthisis.Ifitcomesoutindifferentkindsofarticles.

Hannah(Host): 47:44 Yeah.

Ames: 47:45 Then,here,letmewriteabookaboutwhywedon'tnecessarilyalwaysneedtowritebooks.Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 47:51 [Laughing]It'sthecurrently,thefirstsentenceofthedraftofmybookislike,"okay,wait,whatthehellareyoudoingwritingabook?Wasn'tthewholepointofthisthatyoudon'tneedbooks?"

Ames: 48:01 Well,welovebooksthough.Allofuswhodothat.Ilovebooks.

Hannah(Host): 48:05 Big,bigfan.Bigfan.Surroundedbythem.[Laughs].

Ames: 48:07 Yeah,exactly.Ilovethem!AndIlikedtheminmyhandsandIdon'treallylikethemtobeelectronic.That'snotwhattheyaretome.Ilikethefeelofthem.Iliketheweightofthem.Andthenotherthingsarefinetobeelectronics,butIhadabookforme.[Sighs]yeah.

Hannah(Host): 48:23 Ijusthavetroublepayingattentionwhenthey'reonscreens.Sotheotheraspectofthiswholeconversationthatagain,this,thisTwitterthreadthatwashappeningthismorninghasreallypromptedalotofnewthinkingaboutthesethingsforme.Butsomebodypointedout,MegGodwin,Ithinktheirnameis,pointedoutthat,youknow,alotofourconversationswhenwe'retalkingaboutnewformsofpublicscholarshiparefocusingonthingsliketenureandpromotion,creditwithinthestructureoftheuniversity.Butthevastmajorityofacademicsworkingtodaywillneverhavetenuretrackjobs,willneverhavetenure.Asasystem,itseemstobeonthewayout,let'ssay.Itseemslikelikeit'sa,it'sprettyunlikelythatwewillsomehowpulltheuniversitybackintothemomentofthe1960swhengettingaPhDledyouintoatenuretrackortenureposition.Andsoistherealsoawaythatwecanbemarryingconversationsabout

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scholarship,aboutnon-traditionalscholarshipwithconversationsabout,let'ssay,non-traditionalscholars?

Ames: 49:35 Yes.Sosoobviouslywehavetodothat.That'sahuge,hugeissue.Icanbarelywrapmymindaroundit.

Hannah(Host): 49:41 Iknow,right?

Ames: 49:41 My,myfirst,myfirstresponseislike,"yeah,wellthathappenswhenthesametimethosepresidentswhocomeintopowerthatdon'texistyetaregoingtomakethesechanges."

Hannah(Host): 49:54 [Laughs]

Ames: 49:54 "Sooo,Ithinkwe'reawaysofffromthisactually."Butitdoesn'tmeanthatthat'snotveryreal.Ithinkalotofithastodowiththatpersonthatwe'retalkingaboutwho,whodoesn'thavethetenurecheckjobthat'sstillteachingintheuniversity.Whyandhowandinwhatwaysdowe,ordowenot,illustratethatwecarethatthosepeoplearedoingthatstuff.Yeah.Myshortansweris"Ihavenoidea."That's--

Ames: 50:17 [Laughs]Yeah,yeah.NordoI.Buttheyseemtometogohandinhand.

Hannah(Host): 50:22 Thereseemstometobealike,whyremainpreciousaboutnotionsofproducingtherightkindofstuffintherightkindofwaytogettherightkindofjobwhenalmostnobody'sgoingtogetthosejobsanyway?Sofuckit.Dotheworkthatyouwanttodointhewaysthatyouwanttodoitforthepeopleyouwanttodoitfor.

Ames: 50:41 Right.Butyou'regoingtohavepeopleholdontothatoldway,likewithadeathgripbecausesomehowtheythink,theythinkthatthere'ssomethingactuallydistinctive.Sohere'swhatitcomesdownto,somethingactuallytrulydifferentaboutthem,theonewhohasthetenuretrackjobandthosewhodon't,right?

Hannah(Host): 51:00 Hmmm.Yeah.

Ames: 51:00 SosomehowIdidsomethingrightormystuffwasbetterorwhatever,thatitwasn'tjustprivilegeorluckorwhateveritmight'vebeen.Inaddition,whenItriedtochallengefolksabout,"well,youknow,wegotthesejobs,here'showthisallevolvedandmaybewe'reintherightplaceattherighttime."I,

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I,thepushbackIsometimesgetfrompeople:"Oh,I,Iearnedthisjob."

Hannah(Host): 51:24 [Laughs].

Ames: 51:24 "Well,okay..."

Hannah(Host): 51:25 It'sameritocracy!

Ames: 51:28 "Well,hmm,buttherewerelike,40ofyouandyou'rethewhiteguywhogotit.Idon'tknow.Iwonder."I,itwasn'tmeanttodemeantheperson.Itwasmeanttobelike,"Hey,aren'tyoureallygratefulforyourtenuretrackjob?IknowIam."Iknowthatit'sawesomeinsomanywaysandreally,reallygettingthat,that'sanamazingprivilege.AndIsupposethat'sittoo,right?SoIwanttofigureouthowdoIusethispositionofprivilegenowIdohavetenure.Youknow,we'llseeaboutthefullprofessor.Myfingersarecrossed,ofcourse.

Hannah(Host): 52:03 Yep.

Ames: 52:03 Buteventhen,that'sanotherlevelofprivilegewhereyoureallyneedtodomore,youknow?

Hannah(Host): 52:08 Yeah.

Ames: 52:08 Notjustsitbackanddothesamething.Idon'tthink,Ithinkthat,wellI,I'llspeakformyself.Ifeellikechallengingmyselftoreallyfigureouthowtodothingsthatmightchallengethewholeacademy,notjustnotjustchallengeanideadeepinsideofanarrowdiscipline.

Hannah(Host): 52:25 ImetaprofattheModernistStudiesAssociationconferenceafewyearsago,whowastellingmethathedoesacomicbookpodcast.It'swithafriendofhis,I'vebeendoingitforyearsthathasquiteapopularfollowing.AndIwaslike,"ohawesome.Youknow,doyoucountthatasyourscholarlyoutput?"Andhesaid,"oh,Idon'tneedto,Ihavetenure."AndIwaslike,"well,butcouldn'tyouusetenureasawaytotobreakspaceopenforotherpeoplewhodon't,butwhowanttobedoingthatkindofwork?"Like,isn'tthereanotherwaytothinkaboutwhatitmeanstohavesecurityasapositionfromwhichyoucanradicalize?Butthatsooftendoesn'tprovetobethecase.

Ames: 53:07 Well,andnowwe'rebacktothe,it'sfeministthinking,whatyoujustsaidthereandwhatthatpersonisillustratingisnotfeministthinkingbecauseit'slike,"oh,Ihavetenure,Idonotneedtodo

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anythingelse.Iamgood."Andthat,that,thatpositionofprivilege,itdoesn'trecognizethatotherpeoplearestruggling.Andagain,thisisnottosayanythingnegative,it'sjustathinkingpattern.LikeIdon't,Idon'tneedtodoanythingnow.I'mgood."Insteadofmakingtheargument,andIthinkthatthat'swhatIwantedtodotoo.Youknow,Icouldsay,"wellI,I've,IhavethisbookorIhavethesepublications."Iwouldbequoteunquote"good"withoutputtingitinthere.

Hannah(Host): 53:43 Mmhmm.

Ames: 53:43 ButIdidn'twanttonotputitinthere,andIwantedpeopletohavetograpplewithit,andIwanted,ohmygosh,thisisgoingtocomeoutbeforetheyarefinishedwithallthis,but,not,it'llbefine.

Hannah(Host): 53:53 We'rerecordingreallyfarinadvance.So...

Ames: 53:55 Right.It'sgoingtobegood.It'sgoingtobeallgood.

Hannah(Host): 53:57 Yeah.

Ames: 53:57 Andit's,it'sfine.Whatever,whatevercomes,whatmay,it'sfine.

Hannah(Host): 54:02 Great.

Ames: 54:02 Ididwantasortof,yeah,Iwantedtoofferitassomethingthat,thatotherpeoplehavetograpplewith,youknow,Idon'tknow.It'llopenaconversation.Allwecandoiskeepopenthesetimeconversations,Ithink.

Hannah(Host): 54:14 Yeah.Ithinkyou'reexactlyright.Okay.Lastquestion.

Ames: 54:17 Okay.

Hannah(Host): 54:18 Willyoutellussomeofyourfavoritepodcasts?

Ames: 54:23 Well,it'srightnow,mytwoareSecretFeministAgendaand--

Hannah(Host): 54:28 [Laughs]That'sgreat.

Ames: 54:30 It'sfact.AndHowtoSurvivetheEndoftheWorld.Isthatit,withtheBrownsisters?

Hannah(Host): 54:36 Yeah.Yeah,yeah.Yeah.

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Ames: 54:37 Thosearemytwofavoriterightnow.

Hannah(Host): 54:39 Oh.

Ames: 54:39 AndIhavebeenanavidlistenerofStrangerswithLeahTau.IlistenedtoalltheEstherPerelthings.Iliketherelationalstuff.Spottily,IlistenedtoInvisibiliaforawhile.Idunno.Doyouknowtheone,HowtoBeaGirlwiththemomandhertransdaughter?

Hannah(Host): 54:57 No!

Ames: 54:58 It's,that'salsodelightful.

Hannah(Host): 55:00 Oh,thatsoundsgreat.

Ames: 55:00 IlovethisandIthink,Ithinkthedaughter'slikesixorsevenwhenitstarts.

Hannah(Host): 55:05 Ohmygoodness.

Ames: 55:05 Andsothemomreallyissettinguptosay,youknow,"here'swhatmydaughterstruggleswithandhere'showthis,here'showthisworksinherlife."And,andthedaughterknowsshe'sbeingrecorded.Soforwhateverthat'sworthatthetime,it'snotasthoughthere'snotconsent,whichisyeah,thepoliticsofconsentIthinkaregiantinthisworld.Yeah,that'swhatI'mlisteningtorightnowandI'mlookingforwardtowhenit'sniceoutagainstcausethat'swhenIusuallylisten.

Hannah(Host): 55:29 Yeah.

Ames: 55:29 Itakeawalkandlistencauseotherwisegettingitcrushedintootherpartsofthedayishard.

Hannah(Host): 55:34 Yeah.Youjustneedtostartdoingmyfavoriteactivity,whichislyingonmybackonthefloorlisteningtopodcastswhilemycatswalkbackandforthoverme.

Ames: 55:46 [Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 55:46 Strongrecommended[Music:"WeUsedtoWait"byArcadeFire]

Hannah(Host): 56:07 Ifyou'dliketolearnmoreaboutAmes,youcanfollowheronInstagramandTwitter@amesthehawk,AMESthehawk,likethebird,orcheckoutherwebsiteandonlineportfolioat

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ameshawkins.com.AndifyouwanttolistentoMastersofText,whichifyoulikeSecretFeministAgenda,youwillalsolike,itisavailableatmastersoftext.com.Andofcourseyoucanfindshownotes,linkstoallofthewebsitesthatIjustlisted,andallofthepreviousepisodesofSecretFeministAgendaonsecretfeministagenda.com.YoucanfollowmeonTwitter@hkpmcgregorandyoucantweetaboutthepodcastusingthehashtag#secretfeministagenda.Andofcourseyoucanreviewtheshow.Therearetwonewreviewsthisweek.OneisfromRosieLefebvrefromCanada,andtheotherisfromDoctorCMRfromtheU.K.Thankyoubothsomuch.Thepodcast'sthemesongis"MeshShirt"byMomJeansofftheiralbumChubRub.Youcandownloadtheentirealbumonfreemusicarchive.orgorfollowthemonFacebook.Ames'sthemessongwas"WeUsedtoWait"byArcadeFire.SecretFeministAgendaisrecordedonthetraditionalanduncededterritoryoftheMusqueam,Squamish,andTsleil-WaututhfirstnationswhereI'mgratefultoliveandwork.ThishasbeenSecretFeministAgenda.Passiton.[Music:“MeshShirt”byMomJeans]