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HMA Sales Training

Michael Senoff Interviews Dave MattsonFrom Sandler Sales

Know What Your Prospect Is ThinkingAnd Give Yourself An Edge

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Know what your prospect is thinking andGive yourself an edge

Wouldn’t it be nice to get inside your prospect’s head – know his personality type and all the right things to say? Well you can, and this interview is going to tell you how. In it, you’ll meet Dave Mattson, a vice president at the Sandler Sales Institute. Dave is going to talk about a psychology-based model for sales training that can really give your consulting business that key strategic advantage it may need.

According to Dave, there are four basic personality types. And while most people identify with two or three, there’s usually a dominant style. If you find out which one of those styles your prospect strongly resembles, you’ll know how to structure your meetings and sales pitches more effectively. So in this audio, Dave gives descriptions of each personality type along with questions you can ask your prospect that will help you determine where he fits into the model.

You’ll also hear… A no-pressure cold calling script that will land you 7 out of 10

appointments How to befriend gatekeepers so they’ll want to help you get

through to the decision makers The importance of fitting into your prospect’s culture and how to

“match and mirror” so that you do How understanding the difference between identity and role will

help you handle stress, adversity and rejection better What Dave means by a “monkey’s paw” and how to use it to get

the reputation for getting results Why if you hear “send me literature” during a cold call, you know

you’ve failed – and ways to avoid getting that response Why you should only be lightly qualifying most prospects before

a face-to-face appointment and some great ways to do that And much more…

Psychology is a powerful tool. The more you know about a person or situation, the bigger the advantage you’re going to have. And these tried-and-true techniques will help you analyze your prospects, get into their heads and know exactly what’s going to work best for them. Enjoy.



Dave: Confidence! My gosh, if you could think about getting 7 out of 10 appointments versus 1 out of 50, your confidence goes up geometrically. Death of any sales person is we don’t have enough people to talk to. Let’s face it; that’s what you’re selling. You’re selling a marketing strategy that gives us higher margins and more customers to talk to. If you can increase your win rate to get an appointment 7 out of 10, that ripple effect is just huge as an independent consultant. HMA; it will increase your business tenfold.

Michael: For anyone who’s seen a lot of different sales trainings out there, why is Sandler different?

Dave: I would say Sandler is different in a number of ways. First, let’s do delivery. Sandler certainly has facilitator-led training and seminars. We have a blended approach with technology and face-to-face training. But I think the thing that separates us from a delivery standpoint is ongoing reinforcement training. And what I mean by that is, we’ve all been to the one-day seminars. I grew up on those as you have and they get us pumped up for a period of time. And certainly the seminar leader’s not there to answer any of those ongoing questions. So what we’ve done at Sandler is we’ve opened up 220 training centers. Clients can come to us as often as they want. Say, well Dick, how to I get past a gatekeeper or how do I better qualify and they can even give us big picture questions or specific scenarios. Like I’m in front of XYZ organization. Here’s what they said. What should I do? And our trainers, who are really sales people who train, can give them real life feedback. We play their trainer, we play their coach, a lot of times we play their manager. So from a delivery standpoint, it’s different. But also a content standpoint. In a lot of different ways, but we have 1,000 hours of content whether it’s management or sales and it’s you-focused selling if we’re going to use our selling model as an example. We focus on the buyer, what’s important to them versus traditional selling which focuses on a lot of features and benefits. And we have a combination of both buying psychology and sales psychology. We put it together in a system called The Sandler Selling System. So we’ve thousands of tactics and strategies but it’s really how we’ve put it together. We’re conversational selling versus remembering a lot of scripts, which I don’t think people do in front of a buyer.

Michael: What’s the story of David H. Sander? I understand he’s the founder and he began sales training and developing the Sandler System in the late 60’s and the early 70’s. What’s his story? What



did he start doing early? Where were some of the challenges he was having and how did this all come to be?

Dave: Well, certainly David Sandler didn’t wake up saying I want to be a sales trainer. David was an executive in a family owned cookie and cracker business. They were very successful and one side of the family had a fight with the other side of the family and decided hey, his side was out. So David woke up on a Monday unemployed where he had been a CEO for years and years with a profitable track record. So what did he do? Well, he opened up the paper and saw that somebody was looking for a sales trainer/business consultant. He answered the ad. It was a company out of Texas who’s been in business for quite some time. He went down and followed the process, which had been the traditional model; go in, meet and greet, features and benefits. And he had failed miserably because David is an introvert and David was follow the process. David would always follow the rules and read the manuals and he went out and as I said, he failed miserably. And it wasn’t because of talent; it’s just that he wasn’t a born sales person. So he went back home and sat down with some psychiatrists and psychologists and said, what’s going on in the human dynamic standpoint because I’m saying this, they’re reacting this way. Why is that true because according to the scripts, when I draw a line down the center of the piece of paper, and I’m using the Ben Franklin close and I’m doing all the positives on one side and the negatives on the other side, I have 15 positives and 1 negative. Of course, the negative I can overcome. They’re supposed to say, yes I’ll take your product.

Michael: Let me ask you this. Are we talking the Zig Zigler training?

Dave: With Paul Myer, SMI, who’s been in the business for a long, long time. And what David found was that his personality style and what he was doing didn’t necessarily fit into the model and he had gone and tried a different approach. Now, David using the Sandler methodology actually became one of the top distributors for SMI and at that point he said I’m going to go on my own. And David decided at that point to take his methodology, his approach, which was psychologically based, into the marketplace and from there it’s been history.

Michael: Oh, so he answered an ad to sell motivational stuff; Paul Myers’ stuff. And then he failed but Myers did offer some training but it didn’t work and he really wanted to make this work, so he developed his own and became number one?



Dave: Absolutely, and from that point forward he decided to open up the Sandler Sales Institute.

Michael: How long was he with Paul Myer?

Dave: I think it was probably about 6 to 7 years.

Michael: He passed away how long ago?

Dave: David passed away in 1995.

Michael: Yet, he was pretty young?

Dave: He was early 60’s.

Michael: Did he have a heart attack?

Dave: You know, I don’t know. I think he had gotten ill and then all of a sudden, he couldn’t control it. I think it was a cancer.

Michael: How long have you been with the company?

Dave: I’ve been with Sandler Sales Institute since 1986; 2 years in the field selling training directly. I came to the home office to visit David, to actually open up my own office in Connecticut in 1988, and at that point he said stay with me, train all the new offices thatwe have and I’ll become your mentor. And I never left. I became David’s partner in 1994 with Edna Sandler and Bruce Segmund.

Michael: And is Edna his wife?

Dave: Yes.

Michael: What led you to Sandler? Were you looking for actual sales training yourself? Were you having challenges in what you were doing?

Dave: I was actually a client. I had owned a business and became very successful early in life; I had lucked out. And I sold that business and tried to figure out what to do with myself into the next big venture. And I went to work for a neighbor who was a President’s Club member. The President’s Club is a term that we use for this local training center that I mentioned. And I sat in the room and I started to say, well I could do this because I tend to be introverted by nature and I’m a rehearser and my parents are educators so I grew up in that environment. So I rehearsed and rehearsed and



became very good at it and I went down to see Dave Sandler to see if I could open up a Connecticut office.

Michael: Back then were they franchised at that time?

Dave: Yes, we franchised in 1984.

Michael: Okay, wonderful; so these offices, 220 training centers; are these somewhat like a Sylvan Learning Center where kids go in and learn but for sales? Are they physical locations or are we talking on-line training through the Internet?

Dave: We have both but our centers are physical locations where we provide both management training and sales training.

Michael: So is a franchise required to open up a physical location? And it’s staffed?

Dave: Sure, they have trainers and sales people like any other office would.

Michael: I see, so Sandler watches right about 1970 the President’s Club. Can you describe what that is and how that helped Sandler really expand?

Dave: Well up to that point, which David grew up in the seminar business, as we all did; the President’s Club what he had found was the same people came time and time again to the seminars. So what David developed was an ongoing reinforcement training program where he would fly into town, hypothetically say Dallas, and he would say come a day early and you can come to reinforcement training and I’ll come back 4 times a year and I’ll show you how to apply what we’ve learned and we can do a lot of brainstorming and I’ll help you take your sales to the next level. Well, that concept grew at a phenomenal rate to the point where he opened up franchises across the country where people would come to our center. Each one of our centers holds 20 hours of training every single month, whether it’s the human relations track, the sales track or the management track. And you can pick and choose. And so we have a 3-year program where people can come to as much trainingas they want because people don’t get certain topics at the same speed. I’ve seen people at a prospecting seminar 5 times because they get different things each time they go. And we have application meetings where we show people how to apply what we’ve taught. And we also have what I’m going to call educational



seminars where we give them the tactics and theory behind whatever that topic is, whether it’s prospecting or management.

Michael: How do you answer this, David? What is selling and how does it differ from marketing?

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Dave: It’s interesting because I’d say that they’re close. I think that marketing is getting somebody’s attention; getting mind share; getting the availability to say yes I have interest, let’s talk. I think selling kicks in right after marketing leaves off in a way. Now that we have that interest, we have peace of mind, what do we do to take the next step? How do we get them to make a commitment of some sort? Now some marketing pieces obviously do that but the human face-to-face type interaction – that’s where selling kicks in because people buy from people and they’re buying from people who they like to trust. A marketing piece can’t do that. It can send the message; it can relay the overall brand but sales takes it to that next step. Because I think most sales people’s biggest competitor isn’t the company down the road; it’s complacency. The buyer knows what they have now and why would I make a change? And that’s the human dynamic and interaction that’s needed through selling.

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Michael: How would you say selling differs from negotiating or would you say it’s pretty similar?

Dave: No, I would say actually negotiating is a result of something that didn’t happen correctly in the sales process. Now I know that sounds counter intuitive, but if you’ve done the sales process properly, there should be little or no negotiating on the back end. We have a 7 step process and we look at it as compartments. And I think if you haven’t done a good job in the budget step as an example, where really tying in your product, the value of it to the ROI, then people will come back and arm wrestle. Now we certainly have procurement offices where their job is to negotiate. But if you’re negotiating over the table with your buyer directly I think it’s as a result of because something moved too quickly in the



sales process and they’re trying to get the even playing field or a value precise so the “negotiate”. We have a negotiating program but again, if you do a great job in the sales process, you shouldn’t ever have to go to that course.

Michael: Who are your main customers? What kind of customers come in to the Sandler training centers? What percentage do you see of people brand new in sales compared to existing salesmen? How would you break up the demographics of the people Sandler’s training?

Dave: Well, we have 2 sides of the business. The side that I’m on for national accounts, we have the Fortune 1000 where we go in and provide on-site boot camps. For the training centers, to answer your question specifically, it’s really companies that are primarily under 500 million and our primary market is for entrepreneurs or small business owners that cannot afford an internal training department and they’re looking for that next step. What do I do to take my people from where they are now to where I think they should be, whether I’m a manager or an entrepreneur? So we have a lot of people who are sole proprietors; we have lots of people who have a management staff of 2 or 3 and a sales staff of 10 to 15. And that’s really our market. Now across the industries, we’re everywhere. We have a lot of technical sales people, a lot of IT, insurance, financial; but quite frankly we’re in every industry that you can imagine. I get to live in a lot of different companies. The amazing thing is there are so many industries out there that I never knew existed. We’re doing lasik surgeries, teaching doctors how to do better communication skills or engineers, they have no customer interaction but it’s internal within the organization that we have to do a better job. So we’re all over the place.

Michael: So people considering getting into selling and using selling as a career; what are some of the advantages of a selling career?

Dave: The advantages of a selling career are never ending. I think a) controlling your own destiny; a good sales person never has to be threatened about the economy. Most of the managers that we train sometimes are concerned with layoffs or what’s the economy going to do. But quite frankly, if you’re a proficient salesperson, you can land on your feet anywhere. I think it allows you to get out of the office; it allows you to talk to a lot of different people; it also allows you to create your own destiny. And what I mean by that is, most salespeople are commissioned somehow so you can control your financial destiny. You can also control, since it’s a 2-way dialog with another individual how you act and also how you react to the



other individual. So I think it’s empowering. Unfortunately, in today’s environment, sales are looked upon with a frown. If you think about Hollywood, they haven’t done any favors with the movies that have come out, whether it’s Glengarry Glenross, or Boiler Room, or Tin Men. The rest of them are out there and it puts a negative slant on it and unfortunately, I think sales as a profession has done that to themselves in the past but 9 out of 10 sales professionals are people that are just wonderful individuals who have decided that this is the profession (and it is a profession) that they want to be in.

Michael: So give me some ideas because salesmen have this negative stereotype. Give me a couple of tips on how you teach your Sandler trained sales professionals to project a professional image.

Dave: Well we project a couple different ways, Michael. Certainly we’ll go in, and again, let’s not teach a lot of scripts. Let’s talk to the other person; that’s number one. So focus on the other individual. Don’t focus on what’s good for me and my company. Let’s focus on what’s good for the buyer because if it’s good for them, then I can go back and say I’ve got a product or service that will help you and it’s good for both of us. Also let’s set rules of engagement. We use the term called “up front contract”. I think it’s our job to lower the anxiety of a buyer; to create an atmosphere where people feel comfortable. So by telling people here’s what I want to cover today, here’s how much time it will take and it’s okay for you to say there’s not a fit and it’s okay for me as a sales professional to say that, also. That’s simple technique, which we call an up front contract, you’d be amazed the physiology of a buyer just relaxes because no one’s ever said it’s okay; there may not be a fit today. And if you feel that way, it’s okay to say that. They have equal rights and unfortunately, I think most sales professionals that don’t do it correctly, they steamroll the process. So be cognizant on the other person; focus on them; go into it really as a fact finding mission, not with the product of the month that regardless of what you say, I’m going to try to sell you this particular product. I think that’s the wrong way to do it.

Michael: Give me an example for one of my HMA consultants. They have someone who’s made an appointment for them; they’ve set the appointment and they’re going to go in and meet the prospect for the first time eyeball to eyeball. How could they use an up front contract to lower that anxiety on the other end? Can you give me a word package that they could use?



Dave: I can; unfortunately it may be a touch generic but I’ll give you the way to customize it for each one of the HMA consultants. It would sound like this. If you were my prospect, Michael, I would say; Michael thanks for inviting me in today. I know last Tuesday I guess we set about 45 minutes for today’s appointment. Is that still good, Michael?

Michael: Yes, that will be fine.

Dave: Great, listen we haven’t worked together in the past so the purpose of today’s meeting is for us to ask each other a lot of questions to see if there’s a fit. And if so, we can talk about some next steps 45 minutes from now. But you may want to ask me a lot of questions today and tell me a little bit about how you guys go to market; the types of organizations that you work with or individuals and some of the challenges that you helped other companies with, and maybe the results. And I certainly would like to ask you some questions today, Michael, also concerning and [and I would insert some of the questions that I want to know about – I want to know about A, B and C]. And at the end, what I have found is a couple things could happen, Michael. We may after talking to each other decide there’s just not a fit. What you’re looking for and what I’m able to help you with, it doesn’t match. And that’s okay and either one of us should feel comfortable saying I don’t see there’s a fit. On the other side we may say it makes some sense, let’s continue talking. In which case, Michael, you’d invite me back for another meeting and I canshow you some of my thoughts and share with you some of the things that we’ve done for others that fit directly into the issues that you’re going to share with me today. Is that fair?

Michael: That sounds fair. So what do untrained people do? Where do you see the big mistakes? An untrained salesperson will go into a meeting a do what?

Dave: Well I think an untrained salesperson shows up and says, Michael thank you for having me. We’ve got about 45 minutes. Let me show you some of the things that I’ve done. And either I show you a PowerPoint presentation or I basically start running my mouth because there is a rule; 70/30 rule; professional sales people and the consultants for HMA should really only be talking 30% of the time. The buyer should be talking 70% of the time. So I think we show up and throw up, unfortunately, but if we’re an HMA we really should go in as the consultant, set the stage, ask some questions and pull. Most people say let me tell you about me and my business and then brrrruuummmmpppp. And let me tell you about the products and services that I can bring to the table.



Unfortunately, the buyer doesn’t get to talk until midway through, if at all, on that first call. Big mistake!

Michael: So listening is absolutely key.

Dave: Yes, and I think it’s asking those laser guided questions. Because questions develop credibility. Think about that. It really does; more so than, let me tell you about my company which started in 1920. Strap yourself in, Michael, this won’t take long.

Michael: What else do you teach your Sandler trained sales people ways to create a positive first impression when they’re meeting?

Dave: Well, again I think it’s the up front contract and there are a lot of psychological nuances to what I shared with the HMA group but also you’re going to be doing some matching and mirroring. We have quite a few personality models that we teach. We teach DISK, which is a behavioral model that tells you how the other person interprets the world and what you can do to explain what you do in a way that connects with them instantly.

Michael: So you break buyers down into different categories?

Dave: Absolutely because there are. Everybody views the world differently. Think about an auto accident. Unfortunately, if you’ve ever been in one, and you’ve asked for witnesses, there are 13 different views of what occurred. And in HMA, you know that you’ve gone into a million dollar presentation and people would just say that was great. And you say to yourself, well that worked. And you go down the road and do another presentation and it’s a completely reaction. They say I don’t get it. Why is that? Well, because everybody is different. So our job as a HMA consultant is not to sell the way we interpret the world. It’s really to communicate the way that the buyer sees the world. They don’t get paid to change the way they buy. You get paid to change the way you communicate.

Michael: What are some major communication errors that you see unskilled salespeople making?

Dave: They do a couple things. One, certainly spend way too much time on the technical side of the product and not the people side. As I said earlier, people buy from people. I don’t think that they’re cognizant of even dress code. When I’m on a sales call and if I were calling on you, Michael, I would actually jot down some of the things that you’re wearing, whether it’s colors, types of shoes; and



when I show up next time I have a very similar outfit on. Now you say why is that important? Well because, psychologically you’re looking at me saying, do I like Dave; is Dave like me? So there’s a concept called matching and mirroring; and it’s very important. We don’t even know we do it, but if you go into any organization they all dress very similarly. It’s a culture; your job is to fit into that culture. I also think that certain people are big picture people whereas others are detail oriented. I happen to be personally a big picture person. So if you come in and give me all the details because it’s important to you and you think that that’s an interesting part of your product, you’d be boring me. You’d be killing me and I would just say, let’s just cut to the chase. What is this? Your job is to figure out who’s across the table and come prepared and be flexible to navigate and explain it differently. We actually, in our training courses, have them come up with 3 different types of presentations based on the personality that we’re sitting across from.

Michael: So what kind of questions could a HMA consultant ask his prospect to determine what type of personality this guy is; is he a big picture guy or detail oriented? You have in your training specific ways to determine that?

Dave: We do and actually we have a quick communication chart which I can make available to any one of your members and they’re welcome to have it. I’ll send it right to you. But to answer your question specifically, to that question, I would say, Michael we have an awful lot to cover today. Would you like me to cover it in 30,000 foot view or go right to the details? Most people will pick what they’re comfortable with. I would have said let’s stay 30,000 feet. My partner, Bruce, would have said let’s get to the details. Tell me exactly how this works. Whereas I as a buyer don’t really care. Or as an example, relationship questions; let’s just take a computer system. You may have mentioned that I bought a new computer system. I’d say what’s the relationship between your new computer system and the one that you had? And that alone will tell you whether you’re a difference person or similarity person. What does that mean? Well, what that means is some people view what’s new sitting in front of the, let’s say a HMA consultant has brought a new idea; they’re internally saying is this something similar to what I’m accustomed to or completely different? Now, I am a similarity person so if you’re trying to get me to move with an HMA idea, tell me how it’s the same as I have now first, and then tell me why I would go with you. What’s the value add? But some people come in and say let me tell you how this completely different than what you’re working with now and why it’s better. I would not listen to a



word that person said because it’s not the order of information that I need in order to make sense to me.

Michael: You’re teaching your trainees how to sell with integrity and how important is integrity today when selling professionally?

Dave: I think integrity separates you from the pack. If you think about the buyer’s side, most buyers can’t differentiate you from your competitors. We all go to product school and we know the differences. Let’s just take my industry as an example. Training . . . I’ll show up to a buyer but their perception is, training is training is training. Now I know that’s not true; I know that we can guarantee a 20% increase in somebody’s productivity or we’ll refund the money. I know we’re different, but they don’t know we’re different. As a matter of fact, most people don’t think they need training or managers think that they can provide the training. So what separates us? Well, certainly our pricing model, which I don’t want to get into that commodity. So it’s the person across from them. So integrity is an integral part but I think if you follow methodology and you really focus on the buyer, integrity oozes out. If it doesn’t make sense to the buyer, don’t move forward because there’s no reason to get them involved in a product or service that you’re not going to bring a healthy ROI to that process. So I think if you teach integrity, I think every technique that we teach will therefore transform into integrity into the process. But we don’t have a class called Integrity. If you need that class, you shouldn’t be in the business.

Michael: Other than teaching and training on actual techniques, do you also work with your customers on a balanced life? Being in sales can be very stressful; do you go into any kind of advice for handling stress or how to respond to adversity; some of the mental things that really keep most people who come into sales out of sales within the next year?

Dave: Sales is a mental game. We have a concept called the IR, which is the different between I which is your identity, and R which is your role. So for us, a healthy balance is important between work and life. We teach everything that we do in 3 areas. We call it the BAT, which is Behavior, Attitude, and Technique. And again I think that differentiates us because most people spend time on technique training; we spend a lot of time on attitude training (how to think differently); behavior training (how to behave differently), and I used that IR term a minute ago but what’s the value of that to a professional sales person within the HMA network? Well, think about this. Have you ever taken rejection personally or have you



ever been in what we call a comfort zone where you’ve done great but you just can’t break through that next ceiling. You can’t take it to the next level. Well, why is that? It’s really an IR issue, which means a lot of people, especially in the marketing profession, take rejection personally whereas the rejecting may be your idea, your concept, but they don’t reject you as a person. But yet because we’ve created out ideas, we’ve brought them there, they become part of us and we take it very personally. The best thing that we could do is to help one of your members understand there’s a difference between Identity and Role.

Michael: What have you seen over the years for the sales industry or the sales training industry? Like what percentage of the people come in to sales, leave sales? Is it a huge turnover, kind of like the insurance sales industry?

Dave: I think it really depends on what type of sales. I mean, do many people come into it thinking that it’s easy and leave? The answer is yes. If you’re in an industry where you have to go and hold the picture on leads, you used the insurance industry or financial industry or copier industry; they have 100% turnover rate, which means 10 people come in and within 6 months, 10 people will leavebecause that is a very difficult thing to do which is to get up every day and make outbound cold calls. Now if you do that well, it turns into a business. If you’re in a different type of industry where you’re more of a farmer, I think that there’s a higher chance that you’re going to be there for quite some time because the pressure of developing leads, qualifying leads and closing the leads is not the same. So overall, yes, there is a high turnover rate in our industry. But I think it’s because they start off in an area that they’re not well equipped and maybe that’s the cold calling area. But I think they may not leave the industry, Michael, they may leave that part of the job but go into a different role within the sales arena which may be more of an account manager; more of a farmer type. But really hunters, the people that flush the opportunity, that is a difficult position and a lot of people are not equipped to go into it thinking it’s easy, they don’t prepare, they don’t rehearse and they’ll go in because they’re a people person and try to wing it. You know, sales people have the gift of gab, which is our greatest asset but it’s also your greatest deficit. So I think if you’re well prepared you treat it like any other industry; your chances of succeeded are tenfold.

Michael: About being prepared and that’s knowing your market, knowing your prospect; are there any techniques who are conducting a



competitor analysis that you could share with the HMA consultants that may help them maybe close more deals?

Dave: Sure and I’m happy to forward you a quick form for a competitor analysis. But for competitor analysis you certainly have the tried and true SWOT approach; the Strength, the Weaknesses, the Opportunities and the Threats. That’s all there. You can certainly match up your product or service in the marketplace comparatively speaking to your competitor. But let’s take it one step deeper. Go in and say, what are, as an example, my last 10 to 15 selling opportunities? What were some of the issues that I faced that the prospect said to me, here are my problems? Make a list of those because you’re going to see some patterns. If you find out that out of the last 15 selling opportunities the buyers had these 6 or 7 consistent issues, do a competitive analysis on that. Where does my product and service compare to my competitors? What am I going to do to solve this particular person’s problem? Because once you understand where your sweet spot is, and it could be different by individuals within an organization, once you understand where that is, then all of your questions can help identify whether that’s a true need of that person. And if not, the chances are it’s not going to be a fit. But also ask some very good questions that will help the prospect see that you’re different. As an example, we do ongoing reinforcement training; I know our competitors don’t do that. I know that so I would say, how important is ongoing reinforcement training to you? If they say, well it’s not important at all, I’ll ask a couple more questions. But if they say it actually is important, then now I can drill down because I would say, one of the things that you may want to ask in your investigative process when you’re trying to find a training organization is, what’s your ongoing reinforcement training program? What role does my manager get to play? So I actually help them investigate my competitors because I know where my sweet spot is comparatively speaking. So I think it’s very important to go into the marketplace. But figure out, do a historical review with your last X amount of buying opportunities. Find some patterns and say where do I match up against my competitors in those areas? And then create a list of questions that will help the prospect really acknowledge, hey that’s important to me. I do want to find out whether you and everybody else that I happen to be investigating can do that. But if it’s not important to them, realize that chances are, unless you’re competitively priced, you may run into troubles a couple feet downstream here.



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Michael: My HMA consultants charge consulting fees based on 8 different projects. I’ve had consultants charge fees for as low as $200 per project and consultants who charge fees as high as $5,000 per project. What’s the difference between those 2 consultants? This is price setting strategies and it seems like it always comes down to confidence. The guy with the confidence who knows his value is the one who’s going to charge more money because he believes that that’s the value he’s bringing compared to the guy who believes his value and time is only worth $200 per project. Can your training get those consultants who don’t have the confidence up to that higher fee charging?

Dave: Absolutely and I think, yes, it’s confidence. People buy conviction; it’s true. If you believe it yourself, that oozes out to the buyer. We’ve all been in front of somebody who says, I’m not even sure that they believe what they’re trying to sell. But there’s something else, Michael that your consultants can do immediately. We have something called the Pain Step, which is what’s the reason why people are looking at one of your projects? What pain are they in? What problem are they trying to take off the table? So what you’re doing, if you will tie let’s say, I have a particular problem; what you want to know is, what’s the financial impact of that problem. How does it affect the organization? How does it affect you personally, the person I’m sitting in front of? And what is the financial ripple there? If you can tie in what the company impact is, the financial impact and the personal impact, back to the project, you will actually charge more. And you can charge more and they’re happy to charge more. As an example, if I’m just trying to sell a seminar for $5,000 (if we’re going to use that as an example), unless I understand what your problems are then chances are you’ll say that’s a lot of money. But if you say, Dave, I have a closing problem and I do some investigating and I realize that it’s costing you $30 million over the course of the year and people are getting frustrated on your staff and you’ve got a turnover problem and that’s costing you a lot of money, chances are $5,000 is easy. But if you’re going too fast through the process and you’re selling features and benefits versus selling solutions to their problem, you’ll always be at $200 a project.

Michael: Is there anything within your training that gives your sales people a unique tactic or strategy to get more business by offering or packaging premiums?



Dave: You know, at Sandler, we have what they call the Monkey’s Paw. And so let’s talk about the HMA consultants, because they have let’s say 1 of 8 projects and everybody wants to go after the big project, right? We all want the big project. Unfortunately, with the big project it means, a) more competitors, longer decision process, and people tend to analyze, right? They analyze every single step of this project because they want to know, am I getting value? Sandler has a strategy called a Monkey’s Paw, which is my foot in the door strategy. So, yes, I’ve got this $5,000 project on the table. Chances are, though, that you could break that down into chunks. Can you sell a small study? Is there a $200, $500, $1,000 project that you can start immediately when they’re in an investigative mode of this other thing? There are a couple things. It breaks down the buyer/seller wall; you’re no longer trying to sell. They’re a client of yours; you get to walk the hallway, establish credibility, and get to know the organization better. They get to see you working and producing results. It’s a lot easier to get that $5,000 project when you’ve got another project in flow. The problem is ego. We all want the big one. In my world, as an example, when somebody wants a worldwide training program, that’s a huge decision. I’ll go in and sell a one-day seminar because I know once I’m in there and they can see what I can do and I get to break down that buyer/seller wall, I have a better shot at the worldwide program. But ego would say, let’s go after the big one and then we forget that a lot of small ones will get you the big one.

Michael: What’s some good advice that Sandler teaches for finding new prospects?

Dave: Well, finding new prospects, we have seminars on that, Michael, but let’s move back one. Which is, does the HMA consultant have a prospecting plan? What does that mean? Most people are trying to find new people to talk to but the key that they’re missing is, how many people on a monthly basis do you need to talk to? So if you would take what you’d like to do from a revenue standpoint and then say, okay if I’m going to do X amount of dollars, I’m going to have X amount of clients which means number of proposals on the street, which means number of meetings. Go all the way down your sales funnel; reverse your sales funnel, to where it says how many new conversations do I need on a weekly or monthly basis? Get that number and let’s hypothetically say that number is 50; your next question is where are they coming from, which is what you’ve asked me. Where do you find them? Well, step number one is to create a list of all the areas that you could find those and that you currently are doing them. So as an example, whether it’s cold



calling, whether it’s networking, whether it’s alliances, put a number next to where you’re getting your leads. You’re going to find, unfortunately, that if you needed 50 you probably only have 20 coming in the front door. So we’re already behind the 8-ball. But then we have to say how do I increase that? So where do we find additional people to talk to? Well, certainly you can make outbound calls. Okay, not productive as far as use of time but I can give you a script that if you’re talking to somebody will get you 7 out of 10 appointments.

Michael: Let’s do that because I do have consultants who are calling cold. They order a list of leads of businesses, say manufacturing, within their geographical area and they’re calling cold and they’re encountering the gatekeepers. Do you have a good script that really is effective in getting an appointment?

Dave: I do; we call it the no pressure cold call. It will get you 7 out of 10 appointments and each one of the HMA consultants, I’m sure, does this slightly different. So I’ll give you a big picture version and, Michael, if you’d like for the consultants I’m happy to send it to you and they can manipulate it any way that they’d like. And better yet, if they want some feedback, I’m happy to give it to them. They can just email me. And here’s how it starts off. We have what’s called a Tout and Interrupt. For an HMA consultant, figure out the top 3 frustrations that your buyers typically have. So, Michael, do you know that off the top of your head; some of the frustrations that a buyer would have?

Michael: A buyer of consulting services?

Dave: Yes, for an HMA.

Michael: More customers; higher margins; and they don’t have time. They’re hiring the consultants because the consultants are going to do it for them.

Dave: Okay, good. I would say ring-ring-ring. Hey, Michael, it’s Dave; did I catch you at a bad time?

Michael: No, it’s okay. Who is this?

Dave: This is Dave; listen Michael, we haven’t talked together in the past and I know I interrupted your day. Can I take less than 2 minutes? I’ll tell you who I am and what I do and then you can decide if it makes any sense for us to set an appointment at a more appropriate time.



Michael: Sure, go ahead, Dave.

Dave: Well, I work with entrepreneurs in the marketplace, just like yourself, who are frustrated by the fact that they’re not getting enough customers. In today’s marketplace, it’s getting harder and harder to find good customers and certainly the ones that we have, we want to leverage. I’m also working with people who find it difficult to get the margins that they used to have. They’re selling more maybe, but the margins are shrinking more and more to the point where, even if they do have a viable buyer on hand, we tend to negotiate the margins down to razor thin and we’re almost treading. You know, it’s like quicksand almost. And there’s a lot of frustration. A lot of the owners that I’ve talked to are trying to do their own marketing but come to find out that’s not their sweet spot. They’re experts in certain areas but as the business grows this is not something that I can spend a lot of time on and the time that I do spend is not productive because that’s not my thing. You know, I’m great at operations, or I’m great at sales, and I find that this is taking an exorbitant amount of time and quite frankly the ROI is not there for me. But, Mike, I don’t know whether getting more customers or increasing your margins or spending time on what really drives the business, if those are any concerns that you may be having.

Michael: Well they are, actually.

Dave: Well, which one got you, off the top of your head?

Michael: Getting more customers.

Dave: Mike, tell me a little bit more about that. What are you experiencing now? And see, in this portion I’m having you talk. You’re going to tell me your issues. I’m going to let you talk for 2-3 minutes. I never solve a problem on the phone because the rule is, on the phone the longer you are on the phone call, the harder it is to get an appointment.

Michael: Oh, is that right?

Dave: Absolutely; you should be off your cold call within 3-4 minutes. Don’t waste a lot of time because you’re going to hear, this sounds really interesting, Dave. Could you send me some literature on that? And that’s when you know you’ve done a poor call. So I would let you talk for a couple of minutes and now close for the appointment.



Michael: And how do you close?

Dave: I would say, well Mike, based on what you’ve said thus far, it sounds like I can help you. Why don’t you invite me over for 30 minutes or so at your office? Ask me a ton of questions. Dave, how do you increase the margins? How can you get me in front of more customers so I can do what I do well? Who else have you worked with in the local marketplace and what are some of the results that they’ve had? And Michael, I’d like to ask you a lot of questions about your business. What are you currently doing for marketing? How are you getting more customers? What are the challenges that you’re facing? At the end of our discussion, we can decide, hey let’s keep talking, or it was worth the half hour but I see no fit; I’m going to continue doing what I’m doing. Is that fair?

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Michael: Sure, so let’s say you’ve got the guy talking; he’s interested. Why is it so important to meet him face to face? Can you set up a future appointment by phone for leveraging time for the sales person?

Dave: We can do it face to face or by phone. Given the choice, I certainly would like to do it face to face, if the rapport skills are better. So this works a lot of different ways and if you’d like, I’m happy to take the consultants through some of the key phrases of that outbound cold call, if you think it would help the consultants.

Michael: Do you have some more stuff we can do?

Dave: Well, sure, if you hear some key phrases, and again, I will send this to you and you can put it up on your web site. But the preoccupation breaker is, first of all, use first names. I never said, hi Michael, this is Dave Mattson over at HMA Consultants and here’s what I do. Is it a good time to talk right now? Most people would say, I don’t need you. No, it’s not a good time. So here are some rules’ first names only. Because quickly you’re saying, do I know Dave? That’s curiosity. Curiosity is your friend on an outbound cold call. The second thing that I want to do is say, Michael we haven’t talked before. You don’t know who I am. Can I take 2 minutes? I’ll tell you who I am, what I do and then you can decide whether you want me to call you back at a more appropriate time. I have given you total control. I’ve also said 2 minutes. The reason why, if you read inside psychology, most people don’t want



to take inbound calls just because once they pick up the phone, they don’t think you’re going to stop talking. They’re looking at their watch saying, David Letterman’s on soon. You’ve been talking for 3 hours. I’ve promised 2 minutes. Everyone was raised to say give the guy 2 minutes and I will always honor my time contract.

Michael: So what happens if you’re into it 5 minutes? Do you bring it up?

Dave: I absolutely do. I say, Michael, I know and I appreciate this conversation and I will keep talking, but I did say up front that I would limit my time because I interrupted your day. And I just want to make sure, is it okay to keep talking or do you want to set an appointment for me to come see you? I always validate. Here’s the rule; let the prospect make the decision.

Michael: But it gives you integrity by asking.

Dave: Absolutely, because quite frankly, they looked at the watch and then when they do hang up, even though they had a great conversation, they would say gosh, that took 10 minutes just to talk to salespeople. There are those that say what they do and then never do what they do, and those who say what they do and then do what they say. And I’d rather be in the second category. So even if you weren’t the time keeper, if we agreed to 2minutes, I will be the timekeeper. And then I allow you to say, no let’s keep talking, or yes, you’re right; thanks. Yes, just come over and see me or hey, I don’t see a need; whatever the case may be. But this cold call, and Michael, we used to teach the 55 different versions. We only teach this version now because again, 7 out of 10 appointments is not bad. But it’s psychologically based. There are a lot of things in here that sound simple but they’re based in psychology.

Michael: So this thing’s been tested millions of times?

Dave: As a matter of fact, when we do a 2-day cold calling seminar, because it’s just not cold calls; we teach how to get introductions and referrals and everything like that. We’ll actually let people leave for an hour because they’re doubting Thomas’s; it can’t be this easy, Dave. And they go and make calls on their client list and they come back to report, I cannot believe that it was that simple. We’ll actually have our presenters make outbound calls on speaker so there’ll be 200 people sitting in a room listening to this call and they’re amazed how simple it is because in their mind they’ve got the fantasies of being hung up on or people being rude. Well, that’s a reaction to probably the way that you’re approaching the call. But



if you approach it properly, people are very nice and warm and they’re willing to give you the time.

Michael: Now what have you seen that do for a sales professional? Just that one technique, being able to get 7 out of 10 calls to really increase that response? Have you seen that just change lives?

Dave: Change lives, yes, because let’s do psychologically first; confidence. My gosh, if you can think about getting 7 out of 10 appointments versus 1 out of 50, your confidence goes up geometrically. Secondly, your time management goes up. If you think about it, if you could be more effective in less time, that’s awesome. It also allows you to start the funnel. The death of any salesperson is we don’t have enough people to talk to. Let’s face it, that’s what you’re selling. You’re selling a marketing strategy that gives us higher margins and more customers to talk to. Do the same thing on us. Be your own consultant. How do I do that? Howdo I effectively manage my pipeline of opportunities to talk to? If you can increase your win rate to get an appointment 7 out of 10, that ripple effect is just huge as an independent consultant. HMA, it will increase your business tenfold.

Michael: How about the gatekeeper, when you know it’s a gatekeeper answering the phone or a blocker?

Dave: Well, of course the gatekeeper, there are a lot of different strategies for gatekeepers. And the interesting thing about gatekeepers is that there was no formal meeting with their boss that says I don’t want to talk to anybody. So when they become a gatekeeper they think that it’s their role. I do a lot of different things but certainly I befriend them, and I’ll give you 2 or 3 tactics. Now, befriend them; you know Mary, hey it’s Dave, I was wondering when I can talk to John. What’s this in reference to? Well, actually I’ve been working with a lot of entrepreneurs like John here locally; here’s what we’re doing. And insert those pain statements that I talked to you about a couple minutes about. Versus I’m a consultant that does marketing; here’s what we do. She’ll automatically decide he doesn’t want to talk to you. So befriend them. Here’s another one. I actually will call and say, Mary hey, it’s Dave Mattson. You know, Steve doesn’t know who I am. As a matter of fact, I got his name from another owner here locally and it’s a cold call and I’m trying to figure out the best way for me to talk to him. So could you help me? They’ll actually help. Do you know there’s a concept called “okay, not okay”, which means if you struggle a little bit and don’t be so slick and ask for help, people will rescue you. I can’t tell you how many times, Michael, I’ve been upgraded to first class as we



fly around the country because there are 2 travelers. Let’s look at this. One shows up and says, hey listen, I’m very important, I travel a lot, upgrade me to first class. And of course the person sitting behind that desk has been getting flyer after flyer who’s been very unhappy, they’re always at fault, and of course they’ve got a tough job. So automatically that person would say, I’m sorry sir, it’s full. But if I did go up and say, boy I’ll tell you what, I had a tough day but I’ve been watching you over here for 15 minutes; I don’t want your job. I mean, you’ve got a tough job. So far everybody has blamed you for everything including the weather. And she starts to laugh and says you’re right, boy it’s getting harder and harder, how can I help you. Well, it may be full but I was hoping to see if there was an upgrade to first class. My luck would be that it’s not going to be there. No sir, you’re in luck. It just happens that way. Listen, gatekeepers have a pretty poor job. It’s not because they’re not valuable; it’s because everybody is trying to get through them, it’s a tough job, they’re juggling 15 calls at once. Befriend them.

Michael: But what if you’re calling, it’s a cold call, you don’t know if they’re a gatekeeper or not. Do you use the same technique that we did on the first time?

Dave: When a gatekeeper picks up an inbound call can be one of 3 people; you could be a friend, you could be a customer, you could be a sales person. Sales people always use full names and they always respond by saying, yes. So if you would say ring-ring-ring, XYZ Company. I would say, hi is Mike in? Now they’re saying, wait a minute now, does this sound like a sales person? Because sales people usually say, yes, this is Dave Mattson at Sandler Sales Institute. I’d like Mr. Smith please. Well obviously I’m a sales person, right? But they don’t know whether I’m a friend or I am a customer. That’s one technique.

Michael: Alright, let’s say I say XYZ Company, may I help you?

Dave: Hi, is Mike in, it’s Dave.

Michael: May I ask who’s calling.

Dave: Sure, I’m sorry, it’s Dave; your first name?

Michael: I’m Mike.

Dave: Michael, hold on one second. Hey yes, one minute, I’m trying to talk here for one second. Just wait one second. I’m sorry.



Michael: That’s good.

Dave: Here’s the thing; on a role play for a second, time pressure. People feel pressured so I’m going to use it to my advantage. When I actually make an outbound call and I hear ring-ring-ring, XYZ Company, I actually start a conversation with somebody that’s not even there. Think of what it sounds like; ring-ring-ring, yeah, hold on guys for one second; I want to talk to Mike first right before we go; it will take me 2 seconds. Hi, is Mike in, it’s Dave. Now you think I know Mike. Never, ever start to say, well, who’s this about? You say, hold on please, and you put me right through. I’ve talked to CEO’s of Fortune 1000 companies all the time. They always say, how did you get through this? I say it’s interesting. I had this make believe conversation with somebody, they felt pressured, and they never asked me any questions.

Michael: Why are they feeling pressured?

Dave: They think there’s a room full of people waiting for me.

Michael: Oh, I got you. That’s a nice one.

Dave: Yes, psychology, right? So they think there’s a group of people and they’re not going to be the one that slowed down the train.

Michael: I see; do you have another tactic like that?

Dave: Oh sure, if you were the gatekeeper I would say, Michael hi, it’s Dave. Michael, I got Steve’s number here and to be honest with you, I’m not sure how I got it and I’m struggling. I’m trying to figure out how to get hold of him. Can I just tell you what I do and then we can figure out how for me to best talk to Steve. Is that fair?

Michael: Okay, sure.

Dave: Here I go, well I got his name here and here’s what I do. I help people who are frustrated by the fact that they don’t have enough customers and have you ever heard Michael jumping up and down the fact that, hey there are not enough customers or he’s angry with the sales people? Have you ever heard that?

Michael: Yes, I have.

Dave: Well, that’s probably why I got the number then. I’ve got tons of stuff but if you were me, how would you get to talk to Michael? So again, everybody loves to play King or Queen for the day. If you



were me, what would you do? They’ll give you the answer every time.

Michael: Okay, let’s say you’re lining up these appointments but you want to make sure you’re qualifying these. Do you have a qualifying stage within that appointment setting before you go out and schlep and meet the guy? What do you do at that point?

Dave: Let’s talk about qualifying. First thing, always set the appointment first, qualify second. Let me tell you what I mean and then I’m going to tell you how to do it. First thing is that if you start asking a lot of qualifying questions to try to get the appointment, inevitably you’ll break your 2 minute rule but you’ll always hear, send me literature; let me take a look at this. But ask each one of the HMA consultants that are listening to this, of the last 10 pieces of literature you sent out, how many people called you back and said, oh my gosh, come see me. It’s just overwhelming what you do. I’d guess the answer’s zero. So set the appointment and then qualify. Here’s what it sounds like because again, you remember if you’ve used my script, you’ve already told them the top 3 frustrations that you work with so they’ve already inserted themselves. I may say, Michael in order to make our appointment next Tuesday as effective as possible, just share with me the top 3 challenges that you’re currently having getting more customers and equally as important, keeping the margins high like they used to be in the old days. And now you start talking. Are you working with an outside marketing company now, Michael? How long have you been there? Just out of curiosity, if they could do one thing better, maybe they couldn’t, but if they could, what would it be? And now you answer me. And so all of a sudden we’ve started. See I want to know do you have the types of problems that I can solve. Are you working with somebody else right now? And if you love that relationship, why am I there? So I don’t want to spin my wheels asyou’ve said. I don’t want to waste a lot of time. But I do want to make sure, and again, I card qualify face to face. I’ll lightly qualify on the phone to get an appointment. Now if it’s a 16 hour drive, obviously we’re going to qualify. And you should have a checklist by the way of things that you want to know prior to going to see them, if it’s a huge investment of time and money on your end. What I find is, the more enthusiastic the prospect is, the less qualifying the consultant does. It’s a shame but that’s what happens because we get caught up in their enthusiasm. But I have a checklist of 3 or 4 things for me and each of the HMA consultants should have a checklist to say, hey what would I want to know to make sure that this is a viable candidate for me to go meet. Now



again, that list should shrink if they’re right down the road. As time and money increases, so should your questions.

Michael: How about a qualifying question whether you’ve got to determine do they have the dollars, the investment for your services? How do you handle that?

Dave: Well, I ask a very simple question which is, again if I’m in a sales call, I say well it sounds like you’ve got 3 major issues that you’re trying to tackle; this issue, that issue, and this issue, which we’ve determined is costing the organization about $500,000 a year. Do you have a budget set aside to deal with some of these issues? I would ask that immediately; to take care of a $500,000 problem, do you have a budget set aside to deal with that? And 9 out of 10 entrepreneurs would say, well no I don’t. I would say, how do you see yourself moving forward? And now I start to do it. Because I have projects ranging from $1,000 to $5,000. What should we do? Then they start to ask questions.

Michael: That’s good. What are some of the different personality types my consultants are going to run into out there? How do you break them down; 10 different ways, 4 main ones?

Dave: The personality steps that we use, there are two models that we use, but we’ll use DISC. DISC stands for 4 different personality types. D is for dominant; a dominant person is challenge-oriented. They want the bottom line; give me the facts. I don’t want to hear about your weekend. I don’t necessarily care about your company. Just hear my problems, how are you going to fix them, what’s it going to cost me? Let’s cut to the chase. So those are drivers. You may think some of these people are rude; they may even cut you off mid-sentence because they don’t care. They’ve got the information that they felt was necessary; let’s keep moving. They’re always saying come on, come on, come on, speed it up. That’s a high D. An I is an influencer. They’re the ones who are going to want to talk to you about their weekend; tell you some stories; they love jokes. They want to know what other people have experienced from using HMA. They want to know all those things so they talk through problems. They want to hear third party stories; they want to hear testimonials. They want to know what was written about you and how you have succeeded with other organizations. S stands for steady relater; the best way to describe these people is Steady Eddy’s. They don’t like to change. They want to know, how is it the same. These people incubate; these are the people that get things done but at their own pace. So as buyers you want to include them in every step of the way. You



want to make sure you send them things ahead of time so they can incubate. If you spring on them that today’s the day for decision, they will not make one. They will not make that decision. They need time. They also want to know who else has used this successfully; let them talk to them, let them go see them, but they’re going to move a lot slower than you think. If you’re a high D selling to an S, you’re going to be saying, my gosh we could have done this months ago. What else do you need? I’ve told you everything. And they’re going to say you’re pushing too hard, you’re doing this; so it’s a different personality type. And Michael, the last one is a C; that’s called compliant. These are people who are introverted but they’re feeling oriented, so these people are facts and figures oriented. They want to know about the ROI, they want to know about every single step of the project. So what are you doing next? What happens then? What’s going on over here? So they tend to have everything in order. Their desks are everything’s got its place; it’s spotless; they know exactly what’s what. And if you’d like, again I’ll send that to you so the HMA consultants can have it online. It’s a quick characteristics of what people’s offices look like; what types of clothes they would wear; what types of questions they would ask consultants. And so you can pick out who’s who very quickly.

Michael: Oh, that would be nice. Who would you rather sell to? Is one personality type easier to sell to than the other? Or does it depend on what your personality type is?

Dave: I think it is dependant on your personality. I’m a high D. I think that high D’s and I get along great because we cut to the chase. They don’t necessarily have to hear my personal history, my company history. Once you explain the thing, I throw out my solutions, I get you to put your own spin on it, and it’s done pretty quickly. The person that would give me a heartache is a high S because they’re plodders; they take forever; there’s not enough information you could give them. Every time you think you’ve exhausted the educational step, they want more information. It’s a very long road to hoe. But here’s the point. Earlier in the interview I said you’ve got to sell the way people want to get information. And that’s what I need to do. I need to morph from a D to an S, if you happen to be an S, and provide you with a document ahead of time; give you an agenda so you can incubate it; ask you to think about things; give you small little mini steps versus jumping from step 1 to step 8. A high D would love that. They don’t think steps 2 through 7 are worthwhile anyway, so they go right to the end. And S panics. So I need to change the way that I talk. So yes, it’s easier for me with a D, but think about this as an HMA consultant. You don’t get paid to



sell to people that are exactly the same because that’s a small percentage. The real value is selling to people who don’t have the same personality types.

Michael: In the research, have they broken down the population to determine that there’s more of one type than the other or is it pretty equal?

Dave: Actually, statistically we have a blend of all 4. We all are all 4. It’s only 2% to 5% are 100% D, 100% I and S and C. We almost have 4 little people inside of us so as they blend, as an example, most executives would be D’s or C’s and they may not be that naturally but as they go through the organization, they’re forced to cut to the chase and get more done quicker so they become D’s in their work environment. But a lot of professional sales people tend to be I’s. They talk, they’re people people. So the industries actually are broken up. Engineers tend to be C’s. People that have staff jobs within an organization tend to be S’s. They have everything in its place; they do those things. But it’s a blend of all 4 that makes up a total person. I have all 4 even though I claim to be a D. I am a D, but I have all the other 3, too.

You’re listening to an exclusive interview found on Michael Senoff’s www.hardtofindseminars.com. Please continue to Part Two.

Part Two

Know what your prospect is thinking andGive yourself an edge

Wouldn’t it be nice to get inside your prospect’s head – know his personality type and all the right things to say? Well you can, and this interview is going to tell you how. In it, you’ll meet Dave Mattson, a vice president at the Sandler Sales Institute. Dave is going to talk about a psychology-based model for sales training that can really give your consulting business that key strategic advantage it may need.

According to Dave, there are four basic personality types. And while most people identify with two or three, there’s usually a dominant style. If you find out which one of those styles your prospect strongly resembles, you’ll know how to structure your meetings and sales pitches more effectively. So in this audio, Dave gives descriptions of



each personality type along with questions you can ask your prospect that will help you determine where he fits into the model.

You’ll also hear… A no-pressure cold calling script that will land you 7 out of 10

appointments How to befriend gatekeepers so they’ll want to help you get

through to the decision makers The importance of fitting into your prospect’s culture and how to

“match and mirror” so that you do How understanding the difference between identity and role will

help you handle stress, adversity and rejection better What Dave means by a “monkey’s paw” and how to use it to get

the reputation for getting results Why if you hear “send me literature” during a cold call, you know

you’ve failed – and ways to avoid getting that response Why you should only be lightly qualifying most prospects before

a face-to-face appointment and some great ways to do that And much more…

Psychology is a powerful tool. The more you know about a person or situation, the bigger the advantage you’re going to have. And these tried-and-true techniques will help you analyze your prospects, get into their heads and know exactly what’s going to work best for them. Enjoy.

Hi, this is Michael Senoff with Michael Senoff’s HardToFindSeminars.com. Here’s part two of my interview with my interview with Dave Matson, partner of Sandler Sales Institute. In the next hour, you’re going to hear Dave field questions from my students at HardToFindSeminars.com. All questions related about sales, selling and confidence. He hasn’t prepared for these questions. He’s hearing them for the first time, and I think you’re going to be very impressed with some of the useful answers he gives answering questions from folks from all over the world all related about sales. Please note, unfortunately, there was a little bit of line disturbance. You’re going to hear a little bit of hissing, and I really apologize about this. I think you’ll have no problem listening to the audio. Just give it some time, and you’ll kind of start to ignore that background noise, and I apologize. If it’s too much of a problem, you can certainly print out and read the transcripts. Give it a chance and I think you’ll be fine, and you’re really going to want to hear these answers. So, let’s get going.

Dave: Dave Matson.



Michael: Dave, it’s Mike Senoff here.

Dave: Hi Mike how are you?

Michael: I’m real good. How are you doing?

Dave: I’m good.

Michael: Are you ready to role this morning?

Dave: Yes.

Michael: So, we’re here with part two with Dave Matson, and Dave’s been generous enough to give us an hour of his time handling and fielding questions from the students from HardToFindSeminars.com. The first question I have for you Dave is what qualities would you look for when you’re hiring a new sales superstar? This is from John Rothstall. He’s an HMA Marketing consultant in Norway.

Dave: What I would look for as I am looking for a superstar in the field because obviously everybody is a superstar when they’re looking for a job, or trying to ensure themselves after they left that interview and they’re actually on your payroll. So, here’s what I look for.

Do they have the past experience that is similar to what you would like them to do? As an example, if you want them to call on small entrepreneurs, and they’re used to calling on the Fortune 500, there is a disconnect there.

If they’re on a seven a week sales cycle, and you want them to go on a two week sales cycle, then that’s a real problem.

So, we use an acronym called SEARCH. SEARCH stands for S, which is skills. Are the skills that they currently bring to this interview consistent with what you want them to do at their job?

E is experience. Do they have the experience at their current workplace that is consistent with what you want them to do here? A is attitude. Do they have the attitude? As an example, you may have people that are fighter pilots that are used to doing things on their own, and you need more of a team approach and vice versa. You might have a team player who you would really like to go out there and do their own thing. That’s a real problem since they’ve always relied on others to help them out.



Then we have R, results. Are the results that they’re bringing to the table consistent with what you want them to have? As an example, first of all, do they have the experience and skill of cold calling, and if they do, are the results within the parameter which you’re looking for.

So, if I make a hundred calls, and I typically get one or two appointments, and I know to be successful here as an HMA consultant, you need a four to ten, six to ten, eight to ten, well, then I look back and say, “Is training an issue?” Do I have enough prospects for this person to deal with, what it is?

Then H is for habit. Do they have the habits that are necessary to succeed? So, that’s what I would call a starting point, and then you can develop your questions that revolve around, hey do you have those skills, those experiences, the result, the habit that would be consistent – and C, which I forget, C is cognitive skills. Do they have processes in place that would be consistent with a top producer in your industry?

Don’t look at the person to say, “Hey, did they influence me? Did I feel comfortable?” We tend to issue every other book. We hire mirror reflections of ourselves. That may be good or bad, but you have a lot of company knowledge and product knowledge as the person interviewing that that person doesn’t benefit from. So, I would look for, “Do they match up their past world with what I’m looking for them to do in the future?” Past success dictates future success. That’s the key.

Michael: Dave, some of my clients are financial planners. They are very hesitant to do anything too “salesy”. I need to sell them on asking for referrals and doing more cross-selling. Any suggestions on sales for professionals. This is from Richard Ennins an HMA consultant in Grant Pass, Oregon.

Dave: Well, cross-selling is an intrinsic top always raised within our own programs. We have a program called sales strategy of the non-selling professional and those are either for technical people or people that don’t want to be perceived as a sales person. So, as a financial planner, you want to be a “consultant” to somebody hocking a different product or service. It’s a fine line. So, what do we do?

There’s a difference between a vendor and a trusted advisor. As a financial planner, we’re striving to be that trusted advisor. Now, whether you go to a doctor as an example, you want the doctor to say, “Hey, you should go to have these tests done. You should really thinking about taking this prescription or these vitamins.”



You don’t say, “Well, hey doc, are you getting a kickback from the MRI group over here?” No, because they have that relationship. So, I think that if you’re questioning whether, “Do I have the ability, do I have the right as a consultant, as an advisor to bring up other products or services?,” then the first thing you have to do is step back and question what is the true relationship that you have with your current customers.

Is it a vendor? Are you selling a particular product or service? Or is it more of an advisor? If it’s an advisor, here’s what I would do. You look at the current portfolio. You then figure out where the holes are. You may or may not be able to fill those holes with your product or service, but it is your responsibility to tell that customer, “Here are the holes. I can take care of these three holes with my product or service, but you still have two additional holes left. In my opinion, you should go do something about that, and by the way, here are some recommendations on who you could go to to get that done.”

That’s an unbiased situation. I would do that all day long. Listen, buyer psychology dictates people want to buy from people who they have a relationship with. They want to buy additional products and services from you.

Think about buyer anxiety. It increases when they have to go find another vendor, another person to go buy a particular product or service from where A you could have recommended, or B you could have sold it. So, you’re allowing a competitor to get into your client base, which is a serious mistake, but more importantly, you’re putting your existing customer through a whole decision process they don’t really have to go through.

You could have done that, and quite frankly lowered their anxiety, increased their customer satisfaction with you and had a customer for life. So, it is your responsibility to make them aware of the issue and to come with solutions. I wouldn’t look at it as a sales person. I would look at it as someone who’s doing their job properly.

The flip side is you don’t want a customer come say to you Mike, ‘Hey, why didn’t you tell me?’ You say, “Well, I didn’t tell you because I didn’t want to be a salesperson.” That’s your job. Your job is not necessarily to push me over the cliff to buy, but your job is certainly to expose me to the issue, give me solutions and tell me what you would have done. That’s what a financial planner is, plan the future, don’t plan a particular call.

Michael: This is a question from Brandon Wilkins. Dave, I’m looking to start my own business venture as a marketing consultant helping other



businesses to grow an intensify their marketing efforts. I have done fax and email blasts of my initial sales letter, but have received no responses.

I’ve also asked for referrals from current business people I know, “They’re not company owners, decision makers, just employees,” do you have any suggestions of initiating a grass roots method to get those first few clients.

Dave: It’s always difficult because I think when you don’t have those first clients, Brandon, giving your own conviction, you start to question whether you’re doing the right thing and you have the right message.

The letter, that’s okay, I call that a passive approach. You don’t know who is going to respond. You need to come up with what I’m going to call a prospecting plan.

So, if you know you need twenty conversations as an example, come up with a list of all the areas that proceed into the twenty people that you need to talk to. It could be, “I’m going to blast email by letter, and I expect one out of that. I’m going to go to an association meeting. I expect two out of that. I plan on talking in front of a small entrepreneur group. I expect ten.”

I know from our group there’s probably two dozen ways to go to market. We have our trainers pick two or three that are really philosophically in line with what their strengths are, but whether it’s an executive briefing, and granted there’s plenty of places that entrepreneurs like myself go to meetings, you could speak about how to increase the effectiveness of your current marketing program and be a hero, and here are the top ten things that you have to look for.

You don’t have to skew it to you, but you would be a content expert if you talked for forty-five minutes. I know in my world, if I’m in front of twenty strangers at one of these briefings, thirteen will give me an appointment, nine will buy. So, I know the numbers. So, that’s one thing that you should start thinking about is to expand the scope of where they’re coming from.

The second thing listen to yourself on your scripts. You may find that you’re too focused on what you do and not enough focus on what the issues are that the entrepreneurs are facing.

The other thing that I would do is just to get in the car, start making calls whether it’s phone calls or walk-ins, but get that done. I would even consider a foot in the door strategy.



When you’re new as an HMA consultant, don’t look around for people who are selling $5,000 projects. That’s not you. You may consider a foot in the door strategy that puts your ego aside for a minute and say, “Hey, what can I do to get my first five to six clients?”

I call them charter clients. That way you feel good about it. Make it easy for them to do busy with you. Leverage it with other clients with testimonials and referrals, and also use that as, “Here’s my foot in the door for one particular project” that you know within your portfolio you could sell two, three, four other projects for higher rates. So, put your ego aside when you’re thinking about that. Just come up with some foot in the door strategies.

Also, where’s the silent auctions – every community, private schools, there’s always fundraisers. I suggest that you start to give a free marketing audit to an entrepreneur. Get your foot in the door that way. Do an audit, come back. Of course, there’s going to be areas which you can help them with. That’s another way to get those conversations going.

At the end of the day, take an active approach versus a passive approach and start banging out those numbers.

For more exclusive interviews on business, marketing, advertising and copywriting, go to Michael Senoff’s HardToFindSeminars.com.

Michael: Question from John Lana. Dave, I’m an engineer, and I talk to the computer more than people. I don’t know how to sell, whether it’s real selling or just selling myself in an interview. Seriously, can sales skills be taught.

Dave: If it’s a sales interview, which I think is what you’re talking about, the answer is yes. I’m introverted by nature. I didn’t just grow up as a sales person. No one in my family is a sales person. I think it’s a comfort issue.

I would suggest to you that you do a couple of things. Say your talk out loud. If you’re talking to your computer more than you talk to people, there’s got to be five or six scenarios where you interact with a person, whether it’s selling an idea or selling a particular product or service that you’re supporting or selling. Get your part out. Say it out loud five to six times.



Psychology dictates, Mike, that if somebody says it out loud six time A – never grade the first two or three times. Don’t be discouraged, but itgoes into long term memory and you don’t feel as much pressure.

For years, I did ten hours of prep for one hour of stand up when I did seminars. So, now I’m three to one, but I’ve been doing it for twenty years, and I’m still introverted. That hasn’t changed. So, I think yes it’s a doable. I think you just have to start practice, practice, practice.

Feel comfortable, but more importantly, think about the service that you’re doing that other person. How many times have you seen a non-engineer make a mistake because they didn’t have all the technical know how that you have? That’s what you’re bringing to the table. You’re actually do them a service by explaining what you do.

One of the most disarming things that you could do, and we teach this to our engineers, is to start off by saying, “Mr. Prospect, I’d like to ask you a couple of questions today. I’ve got to tell you upfront, I’m not a sales person. I’m an engineer by training, and that’s my specialty. So, if I don’t ask the questions that you want me to, please feel free to jump in, but that’s just not my strength.”

By saying that, you disarm the prospect. You’ve also then elevated yourself because it’s a very human moment. Quite frankly, you struggle and when people struggle, you watch, your prospects will actually help you through this sale. I used this line for many years, “Hey, I’m not a sales person. So, if I forget to bring up an important topic, or I’m going too much into the detail and you’ve got the concept, just say, ‘Dave, I understand, let’s go on to something else.’ Just help me out.”

I would have people helping all day long, but what they’re really doing psychologically is helping themselves by so giving the choice of twenty sales people and twenty engineers, who would I rain to get the biggest ROI? I’d train twenty engineers. So, I think you’re light years ahead of people who think they were born as a sales person.

Michael: This is a question from Mike Imperial. Dave, at the beginning of a sales presentation, is it best to ask consultive questions about what the prospect is looking for before talking about yourself, company and credentials, etc. If not, what is the best format?

Dave: Well, Mike, that’s a great question. I would answer very directly, yes. Start off by asking consultative questions. If you feel uncomfortable with that because you’ve been brought up on features and benefits, then I would certainly start off by saying, “Hey, let me spend two minutes to give you a 30,000 foot view of who we are, and then let me



ask you a couple of questions so I can get a better understanding of what the issues are, and then I can tailor some of my responses to you.

Some people are embedded in it. They must talk about their company. I think the best thing that you can avoid is to show up with that PowerPoint and say, “Hey, before we start today, let me give you a little overview of our company.” You turn the lights down and say, “Roll ‘em.”

It’s like deck 622 later, you get to, “So, what are your issues?” There’s a concept called primacy and recentcy. People always remember how you start and how you end.

So, start with what’s important to them, not your company. It’s by issues. People want to solve their own problems. So, even in proposals, I would say, “Hey start off with here’s the prospects problems. Here’s my solution. As an exhibit, here’s the company overview.”

People automatically go right to that section anyway, so it’s a bonding move to say, “Hey, I’m certainly happy to tell you about my company. Let’s start off if I could ask you a couple of questions to better understand what your issues are.” People will love you for it. Keep doing it if that’s what you’re doing, it’s called view focused selling. Focus on the buyer. Stop focusing on what’s important to you personally, which may be your product. It may be your company overview.

If it makes sense based on their discussion with you, you have plenty of time to weave that in. I have had companies spend large amounts of money, never asking for a company overview, never asking for testimonials or referrals because they understood that they explained the problem. Dave understood it, and they had trust and conviction that I could deliver and it wasn’t because they talked to referrals. It’s the way that you approach the sale. So, yes consultative selling questions.

Michael: Question from Carolyn Winslow. Dave, what are the top three motivators for sales performance with a sales force? I personally believe that in a list of ten, money is about nine. What’s your opinion?

Dave: The top three motivators for a sales force I think is a win. People want to win. I think it’s clear direction – give you the rules so I understand where I can play with those rules. I also think a top motivator for them is what I call key PIs. What are the indictors for success?



I motivate sales forces all day long. There’s a low tech, high touch approach. If you would take your KPIs, your key performance indicators in your sales process that if they did these things – as an example, one of the things that I measure is the number of first calls, and when I track that, first of all it’s very motivating for people because whether you’re new or a veteran, everybody has equal footing on behaviors versus (inaudible), and that’s very motivating.

It’s also competitive because now we have positive competitive juices internally. So, does compensation drive all behavior? Well, I think it does, but I think the parameter more so are giving the rules to succeed. Give me the parameters, give me the scenarios, they actually do give you the tools.

I think if you do those things and show them that you’re paying attention to them, sales people will leave organizations not because of money. They will leave because they’re stroked deprived. Clients will leave you because they don’t feel appreciated, and so will sales people. They will justify their departure by saying it’s because they got a better deal financially, but that’s not true.

People will leave your organization because they don’t feel appreciated and they’re done learning. Let them learn more. They will stay with you for life.

Michael: Here’s a question from an actual sales training, sales training firm, kind of like what you’re doing but on a smaller level. His name is Onyan Siegel. Dave, what is the most effective way to follow up after having submitted a proposal, assuming you haven’t been able to close at that point?

Dave: The best way follow up is you’re not – well, I assuming from this question that they were face to face and they delivered that proposal. Then, under that arrangement, if you’re not able to close, you should have what we call an upfront contract. An upfront contract means that you understand that a client is going to go into some super secret meeting and have discussions which are not participating in, but you would like to know when would they have an answer. They can give you that versus you calling back and being attacked.

I understand that you guys are having meetings internally, when do you think you will have that done? Well, by next week. Okay, so if I called you Thursday, we set an appointment now, that way you can give me some feedback of where you are, you may have tell me, “Hey, Dave, we haven’t gotten it done yet, give me another week,” but let’s



schedule another appointment on the phone that we can talk to give me an update of what’s going on.

So, set it up now. Don’t chase the after fact. The best thing of course is to set a face to face meeting for you to go back and talk to them face to face. If you can’t do that, a telephone appointment is the next best thing.

Michael: Question from Al Sphere of MarketingAdreneline.com. Dave, what are some resources for finding where the prospects in your market are so that you can reach them through the most appropriate marketing methods online or off?

Dave: Well, of course, the best thing to do to work off referrals, but if we can’t do that, we tend to use Hoover’s for a lot of what we do to pick out who’s who and where they are, backgrounds. I know that most companies use that market intelligence process, but I’m sure there’s others out there, but that’s the one that we use to do due diligence.

I think that there’s about nine steps that we teach people to go online to figure out who’s who, but to identify prospect by marketplace, I can do accurate territorial management and stuff. I would go to Hoovers.

Michael: This is an anonymous question. Dave, some say that you have to be creative in sales. To what degree do you believe this to be true?

Dave: I don’t believe that to be true at all, actually. I think that most successful sales people follow processes. The creative just gives you permission not to follow a system.

We have this hammer sales system I think that engineers follow the systems. Pilots follow systems. You would hope that your doctor follows a system. You don’t want a pilot of a plane to say, “Hey, listen we’re not going to use autopilot. We’re going to be creative.” I would be very nervous. I would also be very nervous if my surgeon said that.

So, sales people who are the most successful follow systems and processes. Now, creative could be interpreted as that you want to make sure that you have listening skills, that you have the ability to be creative when you’re weaving in your solutions to their problem, but that’s the only reason that you would want to be creative is to make sure that if it doesn’t fit exactly into the box, what could do you to solve that prospect’s need within the parameters that that company has given to you.



But, if somebody was interviewing me, and said, “Hey, I’m very creative. Everytime I approach the sales process, I’m very different.” I would not hire that person under any circumstances. That’s a very reactive person. Quite frankly, you’re never going to succeed to the levels of what professional sales people who are very successful will ever achieve.

So, follow systems. Don’t get creative.

Michael: Here’s a question from Darren Jacklyn. He’s a wonderful motivational coach, and he’s out of British Columbia Canada. His website is called TrustTheProcessEvents.com. Dave, let’s say that you meet someone from a foreign culture in a business meeting, and you have limited time to present your product or service. How would you establish rapport and credibility to close the deal?

Dave: Well, if I met somebody from a foreign culture, and didn’t have time to close the deal, then I would turn that into a positive. Let’s just say it’s Darren. I would say, “Darren, based on what we’ve said thus far, I think there’s a connection here. I think we may be able to help. Let’s set some time where you and I can chat one on one to make sure that I fully do understand issues and we can create a plan moving forward. How do you feel that?

Let them say yes or no. Let them lead the dance. Let them really not leading the dance. They’re really responding to your question. That’s the best way. Quite frankly, I think that most of the selling should be done when you’re at the trade shows or conventions. It’s very difficult to close people at those. When you are spending your energy, they know you’re spending your energy with just one if fifteen people walk by.

So, I would always set one on one after the fact. Quite frankly, you’d be better off that way anyways to get that done. You get to see more people, but certainly a foreign culture, even if there’s a language barrier, it’s much easier to get yourself offsite into an environment where you can focus on what you’re doing. That’s a very positive perspective. So, there’s a lot of good things that would happen as a result of that. So, that’s the way I would do that.

Michael: Great, you’re doing a great thing. These are great answers. Dave, are there any mental or physical preparatory strategies you would suggest before making a sales call, not just over the phone, but in person as well?



Dave: Well, both physical and mental get ready, well, first of all, I tend to take a couple of deep breath before I walk into a meeting. It helps me get focused on what I’m doing. Some of the mental preparation that I do is to focus on the top two or three questions that I want to make sure that I ask in the first couple of minutes, because again that primacy recency concept kicks in. I think I want to start strong.

So, I want a game plan. So, one of the things that I want to do is to go over the questions that I’m going to ask. I’m going to go over the potential roadblocks or red flags that would pop up because I don’t want to be surprised. I know there are some. There always are. What are they?

Then, when they throw them on the table, which they always do, you don’t have to look shocked. You know they’re there. You’re confident you know your answer.

I’m a big rehearser, so I tend to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. I would suggest that you do that also, but I would also say, “Hey, throw out your last ten to fifteen years worth of product knowledge.” The best thing that you could do is tell yourself psychology that this is the first day in the business. Ask some questions.

Most people get very uncomfortable in the beginning because they want to establish credibility by showing off their product knowledge. The most successful people are the ones that sometimes do it by accident. What I mean by that is they ask tons of questions because they don’t have the product knowledge.

If you’ve been in the industry for 25 years, you don’t hear the first couple minutes of a question. You shut down because you know the answer, but you don’t ask more questions so the prospect experience is that.

So, slow down. Ask questions. You don’t have to show your credibility through product knowledge. It’s okay, and if you would tell yourself that, and then of course visualize what your end result is going to be,I’m asking for another meeting, I’m asking for a close, I’m asking for a beta test, whatever that is, then I would go into that with that. I think that we tend to wing it, and the more time that you spend on prep, more that you’re going to close.

When you’re in a team cell situation or a one on one sales call, if that meeting is half an hour, you should at least have fifteen to twenty minutes of prep time physically and mentally going right through that



process. I think that’s something that most sales people don’t do, certainly the longer you’ve been in business, you do it less frequently.

Michael: Question from Dwight Woods out of Miami Florida. He is the CEO and owner of Unified Martial Arts Academy. His website is MiamiJiKoonDo.com. This is the discipline of martial arts that originally was developed by Bruce Lee. I’ve interviewed him on my site, HardToFindSeminars.com. If you like Bruce Lee, it’s a fascinating interview that you could find up on my site.

His question is Dave, my instinct is not to be pushy. How do I overcome this instinct when a former student or prospect says, “I’m no longer interested?”

Dave: Well, I think that your instincts should play true on this. For instance, I wouldn’t be pushy either because they’re going to expect you to be pushy. So, if somebody says, “I’m no longer interested,” the minute you come back and be pushy, “Well, why not? You’re almost there. Here’s what’s going to happen.” Then you’re pushing against their decision.

So, why don’t we use martial arts? Take their force and redirect it. Don’t meet force upon force. Follow your training. Follow your instincts. Don’t be pushy. I would certainly say align yourself with that and then redirect. I wouldn’t expect that.

If you push that, the line is in the sand and then boom, so here’s what it would sound like. Somebody comes to you and says, “Hey, Dwight. I don’t think I should continue anymore. I think I’ve got it.” I would certainly something like, “Well, that may be true, and I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you.”

“Let me ask you a couple of questions,” and now I start. I say, “Hey, you know what? That may be true. I’m not disagreeing with you.” Posture changes. They thought they were going to get pushed back. Now, you’ve aligned yourself. Now, you start asking those questions, and then it’s almost like in boxing when the bell goes off the other person lowers their gloves and if you keep going the greatest move in Sandler is when somebody says, “Hey, I’m perfectly happy,” I always say, “Sounds like it may be over then, but can I just ask you a question or two before I go.”

They say, “Sure,” and I ask all those consultative questions. So, Dwight follow your training. Do what instinctively makes sense, just agree. It doesn’t mean you’re going to agree in ten minutes. Just agree with their statement and then realign them. Draw them through why



they go there. As people talk out loud, they’ll realize their decision is flawed, but you would have never gotten them to talk if you instantly pushed back.

Michael: Dave, how do I teach my staff to overcome the “it costs too much” objection, especially when the customer acknowledges that our service is worth every penny?

Dave: Well, it costs too much. First of all they should be having five by eight cards. If you’re a sales manager, that has your top ten objections, and then come up with as team, “Here are the rock’em, sock’em responses that we have a play book for all the top objections.” I think you can do the same.

As far as it costs too much, here’s where we are. Let’s step back because that’s a symptom of a greater problem. A greater problem is you probably haven’t tied value into the cost.

Now, they may say, “Oh, yeah, it’s certainly worth it.” That’s an intellectual discussion, but if you take people through the pain step which is why do they need that? People buy emotionally, justify their decision intellectually.

Team based selling is very effective. We’ve been doing it for years. If somebody says they issue, here’s some questions I would like you to ask. One, well if somebody is having a real issue with let’s just say this product not working, I’d say, “Well, tell me more about that.”

That allows them to start talking. They’re getting emotionally involved. Here’s my second question, “How long has it been a problem.” Well, it’s been a problem for five or six years. “Well, okay, I don’t understand. So, give me an example.” They start to give you an example.

Then, I’ll say things like, “Well, what have you done to try to fix this in the past?” Again, I’m giving you conversation and then the fourth question always is, “Well, if you have to guess, in fact if the products not working, what do you think that would cost the organization?” Then, I tie it into something whether it’s lost productivity, competitive nature, whatever it happens to be.

Let’s just hypothetically say, “Well, I don’t know, $25,000-$30,000, per quarter, per day?” Probably per year. So, over the last five years, it would cost $150,000 is that right? Yes. All right, so now you have what the cost of the problem is.



If you’re coming up with a solution that’s thirty or forty thousand dollars, then it’s easy to do. When we do debriefs of sales calls, nine out of ten times there’s no financial cost attributed to the problem. Yes, they understood the problem. Yes, they agreed with the problem. Yes, they even think that you probably could fix the problem, but also think that I could probably do it without you internally more cheaper somewhere else.

If you would just go back and yourself, “Did you attribute a financial impact to the problem?” You’ll find nine out of ten times, you’re not going to have a price issue.

We’re not the cheapest on the market, so we would always hear, “You didn’t do a good pain step,” well that’s very expensive. They’re saying that because they don’t truly understand A-what the cost is and B-they don’t have the conviction that you can fix it.

This is a nice way to push back on an area that nine out of ten people don’t have the authority to negotiate price. So, it tends to be over, but again, I don’t think that’s the problem. Mike, I think that’s the symptom of a nested step. You probably do a good job in the needs step andadd one more component. What is it costing the company, and what is it costing the person sitting in front of you?

If they’re losing bonuses or commissions or they’re not getting promoted as often as they should be, they’ll send the money.

Michael: Great. Dave, what do you feel about information marketing to generate leads and sales? This is the education of a certain topic on a periodic basis and then to turn prospects into qualified leads?

Dave: Well, I’m a huge proponent. That is our number one prospecting source with Sandler. As I said earlier, we get twenty strangers. Thirteen give us an appointment. Nine buy, so I think that’s great. I also think it allows you to be a content expert. You are seen as the expert versus the sales person.

I tend to do ten things that you need to think about when. I give them those ten things. If I never see them again, it added value to their life. Obviously, ten things that I’m saying you need to think about to increase the productivity of let’s say your sales force, are things that I’m good at, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they need me to fulfill the ten things I’m going to tell them. They can do it on their own.



I am a content expert. When I show up, I’m not a sales person. I’m a speaker. I’m an expert at my product at this particular topic, which is to increase the productivity of your sales force under this example.

So, I would suggest, hey keep doing them. There’s more and more people that are in that market that do these now, so they’re not as glitzy as they once were three to five years ago. However, the key to these educational seminars is not the seminar. The key to them seminars is the front end to drive people there.

You will always have about a fifty percent no-show rate. So, you’ve got to drive them. You’ve got to be entertaining informative and then close at the end of your seminar. If you try to chase people after the fact, your appointment ratio goes down geometrically.

The key at the end of the seminar is to have them say yes or no to an appointment. Don’t try to close for money. Don’t try to close for business. Close for an appointment. Yes, you want an appointment. Get people to take out their daytimers right there, get it done. They’re not going to whip out the PDA and give (inaudible).

Yes or no that you’re willing to take your phone call and get an appointment. We have found that the most effective way to increase our close rate – we have been tracking this now for 26 years we’ve been doing this. We have this thing down to a science.

Michael: Dave, what methods would you suggest when positioning to sell a product that has a very long sales cycle or may have multiple channels to go through before a decision can be made? Any tips on how you can position that initial sales process because of the long lifetime.

Dave: Sure, that’s the world I live in, so for me every single call should have a goal and an outcome. So, think about what the sales process is. It doesn’t matter to me whether it’s five years or one day. I think sales is nothing more than a series of agreements, a series of action steps.

The best way to keep yourself positioned properly with an account is to continue those action steps along the way because by the time the prospect looks behind them, they’re 75% through the sales process, and they’ve also made a lot of decisions.

So, start with an upfront contract to get what is the goal of the call, also make a decision about what’s going to happen next. You can’t make a decision, hey yes they’re going to say yes or no to the business, but give them homework. Make a decision about what you’re going to need, what’s going to happen, and track the activity.



Always give people something to do, and I would like to meet XYZ person next time that we’re here. You’ve got to go deep and wide. In a long term selling process, you need a lot of coaches on your side. So, meet people, and say, “Based on what you know, would you mind coaching me through this process?” They have emotional ownership then. It’s a positive.

So, you want to do that. You also want to make sure that you have a relationship with the organization, and not an individual. The problem with long term selling cycles, the sales people who only latch onto one person, that’s a real problem.

So, you want to have advocates throughout the whole organization ask people, “Would you be my coach?” Also, give them action steps, manage the activities, take little mini-steps. You should map out what you want them to do along the way. Don’t just show up and wing it knowing it’s a nine month selling cycle.

You’re in month one. They have made the decision earlier in the process. They’ve got to go through the gyrations internally to get that done. Executive briefings, internally during a sales process – fantastic idea. If one of the mini-steps is to go visit a client together, great. If it’s to do a brainstorming session with the key players, great.

You should have key landmarks of what you’re going to do, and again though, use as many people as you can.

Michael: Here’s a question from Jeff. We all know that getting sales through referrals can be more powerful than cold calling. If you had to choose between the two, what would you choose and why, and what best strategy would you use for each?

Dave: Well, cold calling to referrals is the most effective it’s certainly going to be referrals. You probably have a seven to one ratio on the close rate on a referral than you would on a cold call. It’s also five times less expensive for any organization to go after referrals than it is cold calls.

So, Jeff would be saying, “Well, I don’t really care about that. I don’t own the company,” but you should care about that because the time that it takes from the initial contact to the close is substantially less on a referral.

Now, here’s some of the tricks on referrals. Number one, the majority of sales people wait until your clients ask for a referral and then you’ll



hear something like, “Jeff, that’s great. Let me try it out for a while, then if I’m happy with it, I’ll give you people.”

You’re selling cycle also dictates that if you have thirty, forty, fifty people in the beginning of the funnel, only one or two pop out the bottom of the funnel. So, you’re limiting yourself.

I always ask for referrals during the selling process in addition to my client. I have more people in the sales funnel than I do in the back end because it’s just a natural attrition of disqualifying prospects throughout the way whether they’re disqualifying me or I’m disqualifying them. So, ask up front.

You also want to do spheres of influence. So, you’re asking for the types of people that would be I’ll have to say powers of influence for them. So, what that means is instead of saying, “Who besides yourself do you know that maybe able to use our product or service?” What you hear is, “I don’t know.”

What you say, “Is how can you not know for crying out loud? You know people.” So, I tend to say, “Hey, Jeff, let’s pretend it’s Friday afternoon, you have a business question and you couldn’t ask anybody within your own department. You had to call somebody. Give me three people’s names that you would call. First names only.” “I’d call Mike, Steve, Ed.”

“Okay, well, let me ask you a question. You know what I do. You know the types of problems I solve. Hypothetically Jeff, if you were me, which one of those people would you call first to kind of give an overview of what I did.” Well, then all of a sudden they say, “Well, I would call Ed.”

“Okay, well why Ed? Why did he pop into mind?” “Well, here’s the reason why.” Then, they start to talk to you about all of Ed’s problems, and then you ask, “I don’t supposed you’d be nice enough to call Ed just to let him know who I am and that I may be calling.”

Now, you’re going to get an introduction, and that’s very strong. So,these inner circle relationships as we call them at Sandler are very powerful, but narrow it down to a one or two don’t go out with a dragnet of who else besides yourself you think would need my products or service because you tend to get a nothing result.

Here’s another thing. For anyone that’s listening, if you are convinced, and hopefully you are, that referrals are better than cold calls, then you should have a goal for yourself every month. How many referrals am I



getting? Don’t be passive on this. Passive meaning if I service my customers properly, they will call with referrals. That is a farce. It doesn’t happen that way.

That doesn’t mean that they’re not appreciative, but certainly the amount of people that will call you versus you proactively doing it is night and day. I have a goal. I want five a week, so I’m going to be proactively asking everybody, and it’s now Wednesday and Thursday, and I have two. Well, I’ll tell you what. I kick it up because by Friday afternoon, I would like five referrals.

So, set a goal for yourself and then track the goal because I think that you’d be more proactive in it, but also your results will go through the roof because again, your closing ratio is substantially higher.

Michael: Here’s a question from Jim Pete, he’s the CEO and Owner of MySuccessGateway.com, which is a wonderful website. He’s got a bunch of fascinating interviews. He asks, “What is the state of the sales training and personal development industries? Where do you see the future heading?

Dave: Well, the state of personal development in sales training is about $210 billion market, so people certainly want to be more productive whether it’s to position themselves better within an organization, whether they’re driven by higher commissions. Inherently, people want to do a good job.

So, I think the market is fine. I have found over the last 25 years when the market is difficult out there. We’ve had layoffs. We have inflation. Actually, our business goes up. That’s counterintuitive, but here’s what I found.

When times are great, people throw money at training and coaching and self-development. Managers will throw it at employees. We brought in a motivational speaker. We brought in a sales training course. In parenthesis, they say, to show you we love you.

When times are tough, have the sales force is has been let go. The other half of the sales force, of course, there’s no memo that says, “Hey, quota’s gone done. We’ve let some of the sales people go. By the way, you’ve got to make up their numbers.” They don’t say it out loud, but that’s true. How are we going to get that done? Then, there’s a real commitment to training and personal development when they know they’ve got to step up to the plate to get that increased productivity down.



When the market’s tough, we actually do a lot better. As far as the future’s concerned, I think online learning has fallen flat on its face in most of the what I’m going to say soft skilled training, whether it’s sales training or management training.

Certainly for products training, online learning is awesome. What we have found is that companies have shied away from that. They’re going initially to a facilitator of that training.

Michael: Why do you think that online learning has not worked?

Dave: Because there’s no interaction. There’s no feedback. Let’s face it. You can’t just watch a video or listen to a CD and say, “Oh, I got it.” Humans actually will do it by imitation and observation. So, if somebody says, “Well, here’s how you get past the gatekeeper,” most sales people, “Well, wait a minute now, what about this? How do I do that?, or how do I do this?”

Even our dialogue today, people are asking implementation questions, and I think they want to get immediacy back. They also want the opportunity to say, “Well, wait a minute now. Let me play prospect.” I love that. I always let people at our seminars play prospects and I’ll play them as a sales person to show them how to use it.

Now, online learning, I think it’s got its place. The place in my estimation is reinforcement. I think they’ve heard it. They have the opportunity to have dialogue with the trainer that I think reinforcement is great.

To replace the facilitator, to say, “Here’s how you motivate your sales force, or here’s how you do a coaching,” is very difficult. So, I think a blended approach is the way to go versus what the industry tried to do five to six years ago, which is to really get rid of the facilitator trainings, a hundred percent technology.

I think the organizations as a whole have found that even with the websites how many companies do we know, in the marketing world that have tried to do a hundred percent marketing through their website many, many years ago and realized that’s just a tool a quiver but not a hundred percent. There’s a lot of other things you need to do that, and I think that’s true with learning also.

You’re listening to an interview on Michael Senoff’s HardToFindSeminars.com.



Michael: I think people want that coach. They want somebody by their side, real person face to face. This is what separates Sandler from almost all of the other sales training companies out there. Is this Sandler’s USP?

Dave: Absolutely, Sandler is a big believer in ongoing reinforcement training. That’s our claim to fame. We have 220 training centers that people can come and get yes, theory, but equally as important, how to get it done.

I used to, which I still do, I’ll go into a corporation and say, “If you don’t get a 25% increase in productivity, sales, you don’t pay anything.” As a matter of fact, I’ll refund your money. They say, “Well, how do you do that?” I say, “Well, you know what it is. I think Sandler has got great material. It’s reinforcement. You’ve got to keep the process going so it doesn’t become, and this too shall pass.”

That’s the key, and I think they also want to hear from somebody that they know has been there before. You don’t need a trainer telling you what to do that’s never done it on their own. So, that is really important.

So, I think from reinforcement and credibility is the winning combination, but you’re right. That’s what Sandler’s known for, and that’s how we get the results in the marketplace that we do.

Michael: Does Sandler offer a business opportunity for sales managers or people in sales, like you were when you first found out about it?

Dave: We have franchised our concept. So, right now we have franchises throughout the world, certainly North America, and we have in most major metropolitan areas franchises for every about half million people. They’re all ex-sales people or ex-managers.

I have found that it’s easier to take a manager and a sales person who’s passionate about what they do and turn them into a great trainer versus a trainer teaching them the sales management skills. You could never transfer to that to their clients, and they never succeed. So, we don’t take them.

Michael: How many franchises do you have here in the US?

Dave: The US, I think we’re 180 franchises here in the US, very successful. There’s a couple of states that we’re not in, but for the most part, we’re in everybody’s back yard, most huge metropolitan areas like the L.A.s of the world.

Michael: I’m sure you have probably a world class selling system for the franchises to sell sales training.



Okay, so let’s say someone is interested in investing in a franchise. What kind of training and assistance are they going to get from the home office in building that franchise.

Dave: We take them cradle to grave. We assume that you have selling abilities, but we also make the assumption that you haven’t been selling for a little while and you know nobody in your back year.

So, we take you for, “Hey, listen we’re a franchise company that is sales training.” So, it really combines the two. We have a four percent failure rate, or a 96% success rate now. Any sales manager out there would kill for that. That is an awesome statistic. If you’ve ever looked at a franchise, you would realize that that is just unbelievable especially in a service industry, four percent don’t make it which means 96% do.

Why? Well, all the marketing stuff is done. We’ve give them all the leader’s guides. We talk to each of our trainers twice a day. We debrief the day. We have leader’s guides. Everything is follow the bouncing ball, but allows them to put in their own personalities, which makes them flourish.

So, we have really got that down to a science because we train end users. So, if you think about we have a double edged sword. We’re going to train the end user on the sale or selling system, but we’re also training our franchisees on how to start a business, how to maintain that business, the marketing stuff, the sales training portion of it. There’s a lot of balls in the are that they have to become proficient in very, very quickly.

So, we take to the marketplace and applied it on ourselves. You know the old saying the cobbler’s kids have no shoes. We can not afford to do that in our industry. So, we transform within three to four months. That’s the ramp-up time. We transform people who have done it probably informally in their organizations through literally absolute training and sales machines.

Michael: When you say success rate, what are the qualifications for you to deem the franchise a success?

Dave: For us, the success is based on market and revenue. Let’s face it. In our world, a bad coach or a bad sales trainer is just not going to have any clients. If I call on an entrepreneur and let’s say Mike that you had 25 sales people, you’re going to look at needs. Do I want Dave to teach my people? Is this who I want them to emulate?



Yes, Sandler has great material, but if you don’t connect with the person in front of you, I’ve got a real problem. So, how we view it is how many clients do you have, the revenues that you’re generating? The ripple effect of that means is that you’re helping companies grow because you’re going to get referrals. We need twenty clients.

Once you have twenty clients, we are one hundred percent referral generated. That is very impressive. The only reason that happens is because the results that we get for our end users go to the roots, but we measure success based on revenue and your staying, stay in the business. We put a way for us to measure that.

There’s only two franchises in the United States that do not have a royalty base. We have a flat fee. So, if you generate three million dollars of business, or you generate $30,000 of business, you’re sending us the same amount of money.

Now, that fee is insane from a business perspective, but it’s done a lot of things. It’s kept people in the business because they’re not paying high royalties once they understand intellectual property. It also gets rid of the people who shouldn’t have been there because you can stay on a royalty based program for 38 years and really send no royalties in because you generated no money, but you’re not going to send us a flat fee every year unless you’re generating money and that’s how we do it.

Michael: Is it a monthly flat fee?

Dave: It’s a monthly flat fee.

Michael: And, a one time investment.

Dave: It’s a one time investment. You buy all your products and the monthly fee.

Michael: Are you the person in charge of dealing with all the franchises?

Dave: I help train the franchisee. Ron Taylor talks to perspective franchisees. Steve Howell manages a team of coaches who really make sure the success of the franchisees is exactly what they want it to be.

Michael: If someone was interested in investigating more about your franchise opportunity, what would be the best number to call and who to talk to?

Dave: You go to www.Sandler.com. There’s a whole section there for business opportunity, or you could call Ron Taylor, who’s been with us



for 22 years, and Ron’s phone number is 1-800-638-5686, and either have his secretary put you through or his extension is 2033.

Michael: Perfect.

That’s the end of our question and answer session with Dave Matson of Sandler Sales Institute. I hope this has been helpful. I hope it’s given you some confidence to go out there and get that next deal. I hope it’s given you the ability to get more referrals to prospect easier and to have a different attitude about selling. Thanks for listening.

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