Download - Episode 3.22 Interfering with the Legitimacy of the Settler ......time. So if you haven't already given, go click on that link and consider donating something. [Music: "Mesh Shirt"

Secret Feminist Agenda Transcript

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Episode3.22InterferingwiththeLegitimacyoftheSettlerStatewithChelseaVowelMarch22,2019

Hannah(Host): 00:07 [Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]Hi,I'mHannahMcGregorandthisisSecretFeministAgendaandI'mhavingaprettyrough,y'all.Ifyoufollowmeonanysocialmediaplatform,youwillhavealreadyseenmetalkaboutthis,buttheneckinjurythatI'vebeendealingwithforacoupleofmonthsnowflaredupreallybadlythisweekandI'vebeendealingwithsomeprettysignificantpainandthinking,asaresult,aboutpainalot,andhowharditisto,tothinkthroughpainandhowscarypainiswhenyou'reinthemidstofit,andhowharditfelttogetanyofthedoctorsIsawto,torespondwithwhatfeltlikethegravitythatthepainIwasexperiencingdeserved.And,andhowharditwas,atthesame,timetorecognizethatthatpainisarealthingandthatIwasallowedtotakeadayoff[ruefullaugh].IaskedonTwittertodayforpeopletorecommendreadingsaboutpainbecauseI'vebeenthinkingaboutitsomuchandI,IthinkI'llprobablyenduptalkingaboutitfortheminisodenextweek.Soifyouhearthisandyouhavethingsthatyouhavereadaboutpainthathavestuckwithyou,I'dlovetohearaboutthem.Iamfeelingbetterfornow.Apparentlywiththisinjurythere's,there'sreallynowayofknowingwhenitwillflareup.It'soneofthosenon-linearrecoverythingsthatweknowaretruebutthataresohardtoactuallylivethrough.SoI'mextragratefulthatthisepisoderequirednexttozeroeditingbecauseitislive.Ilovealiveepisode.Ihaveareallygoodexcusenottogoinandtakeoutallofthe"ums"and"ahs"and"likes"becauseI'mtryingto,youknow,maintaintheauthenticityoftheliveexperience.Sowhatyou'reabouttohearisaconversationthatIhadattheUniversityofAlbertainEdmonton,aspartoftheUofA's,CanadianLiteratureCentre'sBrownBagLunchserieswheretheybringinwriterstogiveshortreadingsandtalksoverlunch.They'vebeendoingthisseriesforyears.ThisyeartheyalsofeaturedAmberDawnandJoshuaWhitehead,soIfeellikeI'minprettygoodcompany.Theyinvitedmetocomeandtalkaboutmybook,thebookthatIco-edited,Refuse:CanLitinRuins.AndIaskedifinsteadofjustmetalkingtohimreading,IcouldhaveaconversationwithChelseaVowelwhoisEdmonton-based,andaRefusecontributor,andwhoIadmirehugelyandIwasdelightedwhenChelseasaidyesthatshewouldparticipateintheevent.Soyou'reabouttohearthatconversationthatIhadwithChelseaabouthercontributiontoRefuse,aboutthestateofCanLit,aboutIndigenousliterature


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and,andtonsofotherthings.BeforeItakeyouintothisepisode,there'sonemorethingIwannamention.ChelseabringsupthelawsuitthatiscurrentlybeingdirectedagainstanumberofstudentsandwritersinCanada.IhavelinkedtotheongoingGoFundMeforpeoplebeingnamedinthatsuit.It'scalledtheGallowaySuitDefenseFund.Youcanreadmoreaboutitthereandyou'llhearChelseatalkingaboutitinthisepisode.Alotoftheoriginalfundingforthatsuithappenedwiththatfirstsurgeofpublicity,butasisthewaywiththeinternet,weloseinterestwhenthingsaren'tnew,butthepeoplebeingsuedarestillgoingtoneedalotoffinancialsupport.Alotofthesecasesaregoingtodragonforalongtime.Soifyouhaven'talreadygiven,goclickonthatlinkandconsiderdonatingsomething.[Music:"MeshShirt"byMomJeans]Allright.ThisisnormallythepartwhereIwouldintroducemyguest,butI'mactuallygoingtoletMarieCarriereintroducedChelsea.Sotakeitaway,Marie[Music:"BackinBlack"byAC/DC

Marie: 04:38 MynameisMarieCarriere.I'mthedirectoroftheCanadianLiteratureCentre.IwouldliketostartbyacknowledgingorlocationtodayonthelandsofTreatySix.Weacknowledgethepast,present,andfuturegenerationsoftheTreatySixnations,thePapaschaseandtheMétisnation,withwhomwearestewardsofthisland,asTreatypeople.Andthentohonorandcelebratethisplace,IextendsinceregratitudetotheIndigenouspeopleofallagesandgenerationswhojoinushereattheCLCtoday.So,asyoucansee,wehavealotgoingontodayandthankyouforyourpatience.Alsoaswesaidinournewsletteraboutthisevent,whykickoffthe2019CLCBrownBagLunchReadingserieswithonebrilliantthinkerwhenwecankickitoffwithtwo?Asyoucansee,wearedeviatingfromourregularformattoday,anexcitinglivepodcastrecordingfeaturingHannahMcGregorandChelseaVowel.HannahMcGregorisanAssistantProfessorofPublishingatSimonFraserUniversitywhereherresearchfocusesonpodcastingasscholarlycommunication,systemicbarrierstoaccessintheCanadianpublishingindustry,andmagazinesasmiddlebrowmedia.Sheistheco-creatorofWitch,Please,afeministpodcastontheHarryPotterworld,andthecreatoroftheweeklypodcastSecretFeministAgenda,whichiscurrentlyundergoinganexperimentalpeerreviewprocesswithWilfridLaurierUniversityPress.She'salsotheco-editorofthebookRefuse:CanLitinRuins,whichifyoudon'tknowalready,ishavingitsEdmontonlaunchthisafternoonat5:00PMattheoldartsbuilding.Sopleasejoinusifyoucan.ChelseaVowelisMétisfrommanitow-sâkahikan,LacSte.Anne,Alberta,currentlyresidinginEdmonton.Mothertosixgirls,shehasaBachelorinEducationandaBachelorinLaw


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andLegislation,andiscurrentlyagraduatestudentandonlineCreecurriculumdeveloperattheFacultyofNativeStudieshereattheUofA.Chelseaisapublicintellectual,writer,andeducatorwhoseworkintersectslanguage,gender,Métisself-determinationandresurgence.Sheisco-hostoftheIndigenousfeministsci-fipodcast,MétisinSpace,authorofIndigenousWrites:AGuidetoFirstNations,Métis&InuitIssuesinCanada,whichisalsoaforsaleherebyGlassBooksattheback.Andshemakes,Ihear,legendarybannock.SopleasegiveawarmwelcometoHannahMcGregorandChelseaVowel.

Audience: 07:30 [Claps]

Hannah(Host): 07:31 Areweon?Yeah,thatsoundsamplified.Great.Ilovetohaveabottleofwater,abook,andaphoneandnowheretoputanyofthem.So...

Chelsea: 07:47 Yeah.I,Ineedalittlestepstool.

Hannah(Host): 07:49 We'rejustgonna,it'sgoingtobereallyexciting.Andyougettowatchustrytogetonthesehighchairs.It'sjustalotofdignityhappening.

Chelsea: 07:55 Yeah,yeah.Justlookaway.Lookaway.

Hannah(Host): 07:57 Andwegotit.

Chelsea: 07:58 Littleding.

Hannah(Host): 07:58 Reallygotit.ThisheresoIcankeeptrackoftime,becausewearegoingtotrytohavesometimeforquestionsattheendifpeoplewouldliketodothat.I'llnevertouchthatphoneagain.

Chelsea: 08:07 Perhapssomeinterpretivedances.

Hannah(Host): 08:11 Sowelcomeeveryone.I'mHannahMcGregor.Thisisbeingrecorded.HeyClaire,isthattrue?Great.Loveit.It'sbeingrecordedandwillbereleasedatsomepointasanepisodeofSecretFeministAgenda.SecretFeministAgendaisnormallyrecordedandwillbeeditedandproducedwhereIliveandwork,whichisthetraditionalanduncededterritoryoftheMusqueam,Squamish,andTsleil-Waututhfirstnations.I'msupergratefultobehereonTreatySixterritory.IlivedinEdmontonforawhile;italwaysfeelslikeabitofahomecoming.AndI'malsoreallyexcitedtobeheremeetingChelsea,whoI'mahugefanof!


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Chelsea: 08:47 Oh,mygod.

Hannah(Host): 08:49 Hi,Chelsea.

Chelsea: 08:49 Hi--

Audience: 08:52 [Laughs].

Chelsea: 08:52 --everyone.CanwegetsomelikebrightlightssoIjustlikedon'tseeanybody?

Hannah(Host): 08:56 Youjusthavetolookinthefacesofallthesebeautifulpeople.

Chelsea: 09:00 Iknow,Iknow.

Hannah(Host): 09:00 Soweareheretotalk.We'regoingtostartatleastbytalkingabout,thisbookRefuse:CanLitinRuins.Forsale,copiesintheback,whichChelseahasapoemin.AndsoI'mgonnaask,maybeifyoucanstartusoffbyreadingthepoemandwecanusethatasanentrypointintohavingaconversationaboutCanLit.Howdoesthat,howdoesthatmakeyoufeel?

Chelsea: 09:22 Thatjustsoundssogreat.

Hannah(Host): 09:23 Just[laughs]

Audience: 09:23 [Laughs]

Chelsea: 09:23 I'mveryexcited.[Laughs]Okay,sothisactuallywaslikeaTwitterrant.Thisis--

Hannah(Host): 09:33 Allgreatpoetryis.

Chelsea: 09:34 Yeah,right?So,okay.Ohmygod,I'veneverreaditoutloud.[Coughs][Lipbuzz]Justkidding.Actually,thisis,isthisalittlebitfeedbacky?Igotta,Igottobequiet.

AVTechnician: 09:47 We'reworkingonit.

Chelsea: 09:47 Allright.

Hannah(Host): 09:49 [Laughs].

Chelsea: 09:49 Okay.Sothisiscalled"NoAppeal."Pardonanyprofanity,orenjoyit?I'msorry.Thisisreallyweirdtome.Okay.Allright.Asyoucantell.Okay:ReconciliationisaweirdassthingprettysureCanLitcantellushowtodoit/featherstoswearincopstobeat


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landdefenderstreatyflagsonmallstokeep/usaddictedtocapitalism/CrownandIndigenousRelationstocontinueadministeringpovertyand/corruption/whiteguysplayingredguysworkingwithwhiteguysdoingprojectsonresidentialschoolscelebrated/rounddancecynicismtokenisticterritorialacknowledgementsasdefacto/cedereleasesurrenderhere’sanoilpatchbursary/webelievewomenwebelieveyoubutnotyouhe’sourbuddywitchhunt/twittermob/hopeyouweren’tplanningonmakingahomehereourliteratureisabout/younotforyou/IloveyourcultureIhateyourfacehere’sadrinksplashedinitbetterthan/atrailorhitch/Canada150teachusteachusmakeusfeelguiltyit’ssettler-dommingseed/releasesweetsurrender50shadesofGreyOwl/tellmealltheterriblethingssoIcanbeappalledtitillatednowmeand/BeyakhavesufferedwithyoumaybenowwehavePTSDforyou/getoveritgetoveritpropertyrightsstayoffmylawnwedon’tshakecanes/weshootkidsfreespeechfistinyourgutcrowingjoyinyourtwitterfeedgotwhattheydeservedIdon’tseecolour/studyingyoustudyingyourissuescanyoudoitnowemustandthat’showwe/indigenizetheacademythat’showwewriteyouinyou’reonthemenuagenda/inayearfromnowwecanallrelaxandpatourselvesonthebackforhow/muchworkwedidthisdecolonizationgigissweethopeyoulikedit.

Audience: 10:44 [Applause]

Hannah(Host): 11:33 Thatwasgreat.

Chelsea: 11:33 [Laughs].

Hannah(Host): 11:33 Thatdidn'tsoundlikeyourfirsttime.Ialsoreallyjustwantedyouto[gruntsangrily]"takethat,book!"

Chelsea: 11:39 Yeah.ButIwouldneverbeabletopickitup.I'msohighuphere.

Hannah(Host): 11:41 Iknow,right?Anythingthatgoesdown,I'mkindofregrettingputtingitherealready.It'sjustashort,ashortarmproblem.Alright,so--

Chelsea: 11:47 Theairisthin.

Everyone: 11:52 [Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 11:52 [Laughs]We'veneverbeenonhighchairsbefore,apparently.We,we'rereallyoverwhelmedbytheexperience.Allright,solet'stalkalittlebitaboutCanLitandabout[laughs]what'sgoing


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oninthatpoem,intermsofthewaythatyou'rethinkingthroughlikeCanLit'scomplicityinthislargerprojectof,sortof,reconciliationasasettlercolonialagendaandthewaythatitglossesoverongoinganti-Indigenousviolence.Like,what,whatroledoyouthinkCanLitplaysinthat?

Chelsea: 12:22 Well,it'slikeany,sortof,culturalindustry,youknow,that,thatisbasedonamulticultural,sortof,paradigmwhere,youknow,we'rejust,we'rejustonemoreminoritytobe,tobe,youknow,putintothiswider,youknow,realliterature,right?We'rejustlike,we're,we'rethesesameseeds,youknow,onthebun.


Chelsea: 12:42 Andyouknow,there's,there'swaysthatwe'reallowedtoexpressourselves.Youknow,we'reallowedtohavemusic,we'reallowedtohaveart,andwe'reallowedto,withinlikeprettynarrowframes,haveliterature.Butit'snotreallyliterature,right?It's,it'smorelikewe'reexposingourtraumaandourdysfunction,cuzthat'swhatIndigenouslitissupposedtobe.We'resupposedtobelike,youknow,rippingourselvesopenandbeinglike,"lookatmywounds."Andifyoustrayfromthat,likeifyouwanttodosomethingelse,then,thentheydon'treallyknowwheretoputyou.Andsoit'skindoflike,"well,that'snotagreatfitforus."So,CanLit,likeeverythingelseinCanada,justlikeconsumesus,andcapitalizesonourtraumainorderto,youknow,checkoffdiversityboxes.It'dbelike,lookathowmanyIndigenousauthorswegaveawardstothisyear.Like,Ithinkweshouldbegoodforthenextcoupleofdecades.

Hannah(Host): 13:36 [Laughs]Yeah.Yeah,yeah.

Chelsea: 13:36 Fulfilledthatquota.

Hannah(Host): 13:37 Yeah.Andthecountingandseemstobeareallystrongurge,which,whichmakessensewithin,sortof,this,thisapparatus.Like,settlercolonialismlovescountinganditlovesthatthatcheckingoffboxesisjustanotherformofthatofitemizinginclusivityordiversity.

Chelsea: 13:52 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 13:52 Andbeingabletosaylike,"look,wedidit!"

Chelsea: 13:53 It'sapointsystem.Yeah,becausethat'seasy.Ifyoudon'tactually,youknow,it'slikeI'vebeentalkinglatelyabouthow


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privilegeddiscourse,asit'sbecomingmoremainstream,becomessortofamathematicalcalculation.It'slikeifI'mwhite,there's,there'sapointagainstme,butifI'mslightlydisabledandIhavethisotherpointthatitworksinmyfavor,andlike,thenyou,youknow,youhaveascorethatfloatsaboveyourheadandyoucancompareyourselftootherstodeterminewhoismoreright.Youknow,it's,it'slike,it'sbizarre,butthat'slike,thatiswhatcapitalismdoesisit,it,itturnseverythingintoacommodityandascore.Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 14:24 Yeah.Itremindsme,IhadRyanMcMahon,whohopefullyyouallknow,abrilliantIndigenouspodcaster'smakinganabsolutelyincrediblepodcastrightnowcalledThunderBay.Hewasvisitingmycampuslastyear.Time'sreallyconfusing,butIthinkitwaslastyear,atthiseventwheresomebodyaskedhimyouknow,"allofthisdiversityinitiativeisgreat.Howwillweknowwhenit'senough?"Like,"what'sthe,isitlikethat,thatthepublishingindustrymatchesthe,thedemographicsoftheCanadianpopulation?"Andhewaslike,"ifthat'swhereyou'restarting,youarestartingfromthewrongpremise."It'slike,thecountingisalwaysgoingtobethewronginstinct.

Chelsea: 15:07 Yeah.That'sreallyinterestingbecauseIthinkthatthatquestiondoescomefromaplaceoflikewantingto,likeforalotofpeople,youknow,somepeoplesayitverycynicallyand,"whenisitenough?Youguysalwayswantmore,"right?Butwhatever.Butlike,Idothinkthatalotofpeopledoactuallywonder,like,"okay,sowhatisityouwant?Whatis,whatisthequalitygoingtolooklikeandwhatisinclusiongonnalooklike?"Butyou'rerightto,toimmediatelysortof,saylike,aslongaswehavelikethispercentageofIndigenousauthors,andwithinthatareapercentageoflike,visiblyIndigenousandqueerIndigenousandthisandthat.Like,thatdoesn't,that'snot,I,youknow,forme.SoImean,CanLit,isnotsomethingthatIfeellikeI'mapartof.Althoughitwashilarious.Wehilariouslywerereferredtoaslike,bysomebodyIwon'tnameaslike,sortof,likeinsidersinCanLit.AndIwaslike,"what?"


Chelsea: 15:58 AndI'mlike,"shit,Idon'tevenknowwhatCanLitis."Ihaven'treadmostofthese,IreadMargaretAtwoodinhighschool.Like,likewhenIgototheselikeawriter'sfestivalsandstuff,I'mlike,Idon'tknowwhoanybodyis.

Hannah(Host): 16:08 [Laughs]You'renotaCanLitinsider?


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Chelsea: 16:08 LikeIamlike.No!I'mnotaCanLit,Idon'tevenlikeknow.It'sridiculous.Butyeah,justthat,that,youknow,soIdon'tfeellikewe'reapartofthat.And,Idon'tfeellikearealauthorandIdon'tfeellikeI'mreally,youknow,anything.AndsoI,forme,whatitwouldlooklikeisCanLitwouldnotexist,andneitherwouldCanada,andinsteadevery,youknow,peoplewouldbefreetolikewritethestoriesthatthewaythattheywantit.Soit'snotalljustthis.Youknow,it'slike,it'slikequeerIndigenousbrownkidsontherez,youknow,likeurbannativeswritingaboutlike,Idon'tknow,they'reweirdslashficandhavingthat,like,that's,that'swhatIlove.Likemaybeithasnothingtodowith"Indianstuff,"youknow?It'sjustlike,itiswhatitis.

Hannah(Host): 16:52 Yeah.Andthatwas,wewerechattingabit,priortothiseventaboutCanLit'ssortofunbelievableasa,asasystemandanapparatusandanindustry,it'sunbelievableabilitytosortofconsume,particularlyinthiscaseIndigenousliteratures,andtosaylike,"cool,you'redoingsomethingthat's,that'sfundamentallyresistanttotheprojectofCanLit.Oop!You'reCanLitnowandnowwecanclaimlike,'ohlookhowradicalCanLitis."


Hannah(Host): 17:15 Itincludesallofthisstuffthat'scriticalofit,whichmirrorsobviouslythewaythatCanadaasanationstatefunctions,thatitisalsoincrediblygoodatabsorbingcritiqueandusingthatabsorptionofcritiquetomakeclaimsaboutbeinga,sortof,inclusiveandtolerantplacewithoutactuallytransforminganysystems.

Chelsea: 17:34 Mmhmm,mmhmm.

Hannah(Host): 17:34 Andthere's,there's,there'samirroringbetweenthese,howthesethingswork.

Chelsea: 17:38 Well,theycan'tbeseparatebecausethey'reallpartofthesamecolonialproject,right?

Hannah(Host): 17:42 Yeah,yeah.Likethey'refriends.It'slikeliteratureandthenationstateworktogetherorsomething.

Chelsea: 17:45 Yeah.Theliteratureiswherethenationstate,asathingthatexistsinourmind,iscreated.Likethat'sthething.It'slike,youknow,people,peopletalkaboutliteratureasthoughit'ssortofthisesotericthingovertherethatyoucanjustenjoythatdoesn'treallyhavemuchimpact,butno,thisislikewe'renation


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buildinghappens.Thisiswheretheimaginaryiscreated,andit'sdoneverydeliberatelyandit'sdonebyverysmallgroupofpeople.Andsoofcourse,likeanyexpansionofthatis,isathreattoitbecauseyou're,you'renotjustmessingwith,youknow,likeWPcansellhisabilityto,youknow,livearoundnativesandneverinteractwiththemandthenthinkthathecanwriteaboutthem.You'reinterferingwiththelegitimacyofthesettlerstate,whichiswhatIalwayswanttobedoing.Andthat'sthethingisifCanLitislike,ifCanLitfindsaspaceforuswhereweactuallyfeelcomfortable,thenIthink,thensomething'sgonewrong.Right?Something'swrongtherebecauseitcannotexistwithuswithinit,becauseourwholepurpose,mypurpose,istoexplodethat.Justlike,justgetridofit.

Hannah(Host): 18:48 Yeah.Yeah.Whichisasortof,insomewaysanexerciseofconstantresistancebecausethestrengthofthat,thatinclusionandinterpolationinstinct,it's,youknow,it'spowerfulbecauseit'sgotmoneybehindittoo.Right?

Chelsea: 19:01 Yeah.Andthat'sthething.Okay.Sothisisanotherissuethatagain,it's,it's,it'strueofwriting.It'strueofanysortoflikeculturalworkthatyoudo.It'strueof,youknow,beinganactivistorjustahumanbeing,andit,it's,it'sthat,youknow,tobelegit,forus,forlikeBlackandIndigenousandPeopleofcolor,webasicallyhavetoliveinpovertyand,and,andbelike,youknow,tobegrassroots,youcan'tbetooeducated.Youhavetobepoor.Youcan'tacceptmoneyfromthestate.Andyourworkhastobelike,oftenveryliketrauma-based.

Hannah(Host): 19:38 Mmhmm.

Chelsea: 19:38 Butlikethat,thatexpectationthat,that,sortofstandarddoesn'texistformostpeopleinCanLit.Right?

Hannah(Host): 19:43 Yep.

Chelsea: 19:43 Likeyoucan,youcanjustbelikeafrivolous,middle-class,whitewomanwhowritessomethingabouttheir,theirdogandthat'sfine.Like,I'mnotsayingthatthat'slikeabadthing.Imightlikethatbook,butyouknow,butthey'renotexpectedtosufferfortheirart.Imeanthatinsome,someguyspretendtheysufferfortheirartbutlike,butweareexpectedtosufferforourart.


Chelsea: 20:07 Andit'slike,youknow,soitmeanslikewhenwegetopportunities,likeevensomeoftheseaward,likeGovernor


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GeneralAwardandthingslikethat,wewerealwayslikehearinginthebackarepeoplearesayinglike"sellout,don'tdoit."Youknow?And,andwhyiswegoingevenbecelebratedwithinthesystem,becausesomehowit'sandmaybethat'slegitimate,it'ssomehowlikeanacceptanceorvalidationofthatsystemandthat'sreallyhard.Likeyoujustwanttofriggingwrite--


Chelsea: 20:32 --you'resmuttypoems.Whyshouldyouhavetothink,youknow,balanceallofthesethingsallatonce?

Hannah(Host): 20:38 Yeah.

Chelsea: 20:38 It'snotfair.

Hannah(Host): 20:39 Yeah.[laughs]

Chelsea: 20:41 Justletmewritemysmut.

Hannah(Host): 20:41 [Laughs]Solet'stalkaboutthegenresthatCanLitdoesn'thavespacefor,cuzthat'sreallylike,itseemsthatin,intermsofwhatIndigenousliteraturegets,sortof,broughtintotheseapparatuses,it'srealism,right?

Chelsea: 20:55 Mmhmm.

Hannah(Host): 20:55 Likethatisthatitstrauma-basedrealisminparticular,butalotofyourownwritingisspeculativefiction.


Hannah(Host): 21:02 AndisorientedtowardsMétisandIndigenousfuturism,whichthatwork,insofarasitfallsintotheworldofgenrewriting,doesn'tseemtohaveahomeinCanLit.

Chelsea: 21:12 Yeah,yeah.So,I'vedefinitely,Ineverintendedtobeanonfictionwriterthat,youknow,likeIalwayswantittobe,I'mahugesci-finerdandsoIalwayswantedtowritelike,youknow,highfantasywhenIwasakid.NowIdon'tlikeitsomuch.Nowit'slikesci-ficausethat'smoregrownup.Andthelinebetweenfantasyandsci-fiisverydelineated,ahwhatever.Anyway.

Hannah(Host): 21:33 [Laughs]It'sclearandeveryoneknowswhatitis.


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Chelsea: 21:34 Yes,exactly.Butno,InowtheworkthatIdo,IreallywanttoimaginelikeIwanttoMolly,myco-hostonMétisinSpace,callsitstar,"startrekkingit."Youknow,whereyoudon'thavetoexplainhowyougottothis,thisplace,youjust,you'rethereandyougettolikehavefunwithyour,youknow,allthetechnology.Right?And,and,andthat'sitforme,that'slike,that'sareallyimportantthingforIndigenouspeoplestodo,becausewe'realwaysexpectedtogivetheblueprint,right?Reconciliation,howdowegetthere?WhatisenoughinCanLit,right?We'resupposedtogiveyoulikethe12pointplanandeverydetailhastobecheckedoverandconfirmedand,andyouknow,agreedwithornot.Wedon'tgettojustlikecastourmindsintothefutureandimaginelikeifwecouldflyoriflike,youknow,wecanhaveaugmentedvisionthatwouldallowustoseelikewhensomebody,youknow,aracistassholesowejustavoidthem,likestufflikethat.Wedon'tgettodothat.AndsoI'msayingyeswedoandmaybeit'snotreallygoingtofitintoCanLit,butwhatever.AndsowhenIwritethatstuff,feelinglikeI'mnotgoingtofitintoCanLit,myaudienceisn't,isn'tCanLit'saudience,myaudienceisother,othernichesoutthere.Ijustwanttobelike,youknow,docoolthingslike,andIdon'texplain.Idon'twanttoexplainculturalreferencesbecauseweneed,asIndigenouspeople,weneedtobeabletobuilduptheliteraturethathasculturalreferencesandinjokesandthingslikethatthatoutsiderscanthenstudy.BecauseIhadto,IhadtositthroughShakespeare.IhadtositthroughallthisWesternlitthathasalltheseBiblicalallusions,Ididn'tknowwhatanyofthatshitmeans.LikeIreadthatlittlebookinthedoctor'soffice,theIllustratedBibleorwhatever,butIdon'tknowwhat'sgoingoninthere.SolikeallofthesehighliteraturereferencestolikeBiblicalthings,justovermyhead.Right?AndyetI'mexpectedtodotheworktounderstandthat,thatbackgroundtogetthiswork.WellyoucandotheworkthentounderstandthebackgroundwhenI'mtalkingaboutelderbrotherorlikemakingthesereferencesandmaybeyoudon'tgetthemandwegettolaughandbelike,"hehhehheh!Youmissedthat."

Hannah(Host): 23:35 [Laughs]Ilikedthatlaugh.


Hannah(Host): 23:36 Justagreatattitudetohavetowardsyourreaders.I'monboard.I,so,so,andthatseemslikeareallyinterestingshiftofaudienceorientationfromIndigenousrights,whichissoclearlyspeakingtosettlers.

Chelsea: 23:53 Yes.


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Hannah(Host): 23:53 Andsayinglike,"okay,timetogetsomeshitsortedout."

Chelsea: 23:57 Yes.

Hannah(Host): 23:57 Soisthataprojectthatyoufeellikeyouaredonetalkingtosettlersanddonotwanttodothatwork?Likeisthatworkyouareburnedoutondoing?

Chelsea: 24:06 Yeah.WellImeanIkeepsayingthat,buteverytimeItrytogetout,theydragbackin.

Hannah(Host): 24:10 [Laughs]

Chelsea: 24:10 Like,IwrotethatbooksoIwouldneverhavetotalkaboutthatstuffagain.AndwhatdoIdo?Igoaroundthecountrytalkingaboutthatstuffallthefriggingtime.[Sighs]

Hannah(Host): 24:18 Shouldn'thavewrittensuchagoodbook.

Chelsea: 24:19 Right?

Hannah(Host): 24:20 Shouldamadethebookbad.

Chelsea: 24:20 Man.Man,ohman.OhMan.Butyouknow,yeah.Ithat,thatkindofworkneedstoexistsothatpeoplecangetpasta101levelsowecanhaveconversationsthataremoregenerative.Cuzthatworkisn'tgenerative,thatworkistryingtocombatstereotypes.Andit's,it's,it'sintenselyexhaustingtodealwiththatkindofthing,andsoit'salaborsavingdeviceformyselfandothersbutitcertainlyisn'tgenerative.Soit's,it'sjustallowingpeopletocatchup.AndsotheworkthatIwanttodo,ohmygod,MarieKondo'scomingintotheconversation,wheredidyoucomefrom?


Chelsea: 24:54 Iwanttodoworkthatbringsmejoy.Justaphenomenon.


Chelsea: 24:59 Yeah.Butforme,likeMétisinSpace.So,youknow,IstartedthispodcastwithMollybecause,mykidsweregoneforthesummerandmyhusbandandIweremopingaroundthehouseandalldepressed.Andsoshewouldcomeover,we'ddrinkwine,wewatchsci-fi,we'dlikejusttalkandtalkandtalkaboutit,anddissectit,andlaughandbelike,"we'rethefunniestpeopleonEarth.Weshouldrecordourselves."Andso--


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Hannah(Host): 25:19 That'showallgoodpodcasts.

Chelsea: 25:19 --Yeah,andwearethefunniestpeople.Ilike,seriously,youhavetolistentoitandmaybeyou'renotgoingtogetonthatlevel,butIthinkthatweareveryfunny.


Chelsea: 25:28 Andsothattomethatwasn'twork.Andthat's,andthat'slike,it'shilarious,andit'sfun,andit'sgenerative.Andthesecondwe'vealwaysagreed,theseconditstopsbeingfun,thenwe'renotgoingtodoitanymore.


Chelsea: 25:39 AndImean,we'vehadlikeinterludes,likeI'vehadtwobabiesinthemeantime,andwedidour,westartedourmaster'sthesistogetherandshefinished.Nowshe'sonherPhD.So,youknow,there'slotsofbreaksandstuff.

Hannah(Host): 25:50 Yeah,you'vebeenbusy.

Chelsea: 25:50 Yeah,butitdoesstuff.Andwhatitreallydidisitlinkedusup,youknow,wewerefeelinglikeveryaloneisliketheselittleindiginerds,orit'slike,youknow,maybewe'retheonlynicheswholike,youknow,StarTrekandstuff.Noman,likesomanygeeksoutthereandwelike,theygotintouchwithusandallofasuddenthere'slikethishugecommunityof,ofindiginerds.Andthatwaslike,Imean,that'ssomethingbecausenowwe'rebuildingthings,right?Versuslikehavingthoseconversations,thoseone-on-oneconversationsoverandoveragainthatdoesn'tbuildanything.Thatjustlikesucksyoudryandthenyou'rejustlike,it'slike,no,notmoisturizingintheprairiewinterdry,likethatlevelofdry.

Hannah(Host): 26:26 [Laughs]It'ssodryhere.IfeellikeI'vebeenmummified.


Chelsea: 26:32 We'reallwellpreserved.

Hannah(Host): 26:34 Yeah,you'llalllastforthousandsofyears.Yeah.Sothat,Imeanthe,thewhatyou'respeakingtothat,thattofindcommunity--

Chelsea: 26:43 Yes.


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Hannah(Host): 26:43 --viadoingthisworkthatsparksjoy,thatdoesseemtobe,inmyexperience,somethingthatpodcastsarereallygoodatinparticular.


Hannah(Host): 26:52 AndI,mytheoryisthat,it'sbecausepeople,likeyoucanhatereadsomebody'sTwitterfeed,andmanyofusdoandmanyofushaveourownTwitterfeedshateread,andyoucanhatereadablogpostandyoucansetupGoogleAlertsforwordsthatyouwanttoyellatpeopleabout.Butpodcastsarereallyhardtotrack.Andalsoifyouwanttohatelistentosomebody'spodcast,youhavetospendanhourlisteningtothemtalk.

Chelsea: 27:18 Yeah,it'saninvestment.

Hannah(Host): 27:18 Andthepeoplewhohateusdon'twanttospendanhourlisteningtoawomantalk.Andsoforthemostpart,thepeoplewhoaregoingtoengagewithit,other,thepeoplewhowhocareandselfselectsout.

Chelsea: 27:29 Ohyes.Andit'ssuperniche.Like,likethat'sthethingaboutpodcasting.Itcanbesuper,superniche.Youknow,what'smorenichethanlike,Idunno,thegenreofdrinkingwineand,andcritiquinglikeoldsci-fistufffromanIndigenousfeministlens.Andthensopeople,yeah,peoplearegonna,aregonnalistentobecausetheycare.Wewereexpectingtogetwaymorehatethanwedo.


Chelsea: 27:53 LikeIgetsomuchhateonmysocialmediaandstuff.Likeit'sjust,I'msortofinuredtoitatthispoint.It'sjust,it'sridiculous.Butlike,naryabadwordaboutMétisinSpace.Anditis,it'sdefinitelylike,wealwaysgoabitoveranhour,andnobody'slisteningtothat,youknow,ourfartjokesandstuff.Like,Imeantheyarelisteningbutthentheythinkfartjokesarefunny.

Hannah(Host): 28:13 [Laughs]Yeah.

Chelsea: 28:13 Canyoufartinspace?Imean,thesearetheimportantquestions.


Hannah(Host): 28:18 Canyou?Haveyouresolvedthis?


15

Chelsea: 28:19 Oh,there'sawholetechnical,itdependsonwhetheryou'reinasuitoryou'redyingoutthere.Butyeah,no,itjustrecycles.Yeah.You'rebreathingyourownfarts.Anyway...


Chelsea: 28:29 Thisishighintellectualconversationhere.

Hannah(Host): 28:31 Veryhighintellectualconversation.Isthatclockcorrect?

AVTechnician: 28:35 It'ssowrong.

Hannah(Host): 28:35 No.Whattime?

Chelsea: 28:35 NoMan.That'slike--

AVTechnician: 28:37 Twentyto1:00PM.

Hannah(Host): 28:37 We'reattwentyto1:00PM.

AVTechnician: 28:39 Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 28:39 Ohgreat.We'vegotsomuchtime.That'sgreat.Delightful.Okay.CanwetalkaboutTwitteralittlebit?

Chelsea: 28:44 [Sighs]Alright.

Hannah(Host): 28:44 Iknowit'sreallybad.It'sverybad.It'sverybad,butwe'reboththere.

Chelsea: 28:48 Yes.

Hannah(Host): 28:48 AndoneofthecentralpremisesofRefuse,asaproject,isthatweneedtotakeseriouslytheintellectualworkthathappensonTwitter.Andthat'sparticularlythecasebecause,asconversationsaboutliteratureandculturalproductioningeneralinCanadahavebeenunfoldingoverthepastthreeyearsaround,asetof,particularlytryingevents.NoneofwhichI'mgoingtodescribe.Ifyouwanttotalkaboutthem,youcancometothelaunchtonight.Butasthoseconversationshavebeenunfolding,oneofthereallydistinguishingfeatureshasbeenwhohasaccesstogettinganop-edinamajor,majornationalpaper?



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Hannah(Host): 29:26 Whodoesn't?Sowherearetheconversationshappening?Andthedegreetowhichalotoftheresistantconversationshavebeenhappeningonsocialmediahasbeenawaythosevoiceshavebeendelegitimized.


Hannah(Host): 29:37 Sowe,wewantedtobe,youknow,wehavelikea,a,aTwitteressaybyZoeToddinthere,sortof,roughlyinitsoriginalformbecausethat'showhedoesalotofherintellectualwork.It'showyoudoalotofyourintellectualwork.


Hannah(Host): 29:53 Socanyoutalkalittlebitabout,youknow,despiteTwitterbeinghorriblewhileyou'restillontheredoingthatwork?

Chelsea: 29:59 Yeah.ActuallyRefuseisreallyinterestingbecausethein,intheintrotalksabout,sortofthat,abouttheephemeralnatureoftheconversationsthatarehappeningandtheimportanceoflikehavingsomesortofarchiveofthat.Andit'sreallydifficulttodowhen,youknow,when,yeah,liketime,youknow,youlookatmyfeed,whatI,that,thatTwitterrantpoem,goodluckfindingit.Likeit'ssoburiedinthe,in,in,intime.Andyouhavetoalsobelike,youhavetobetherewhenit'shappening.That's,that'saweirdthing.Solike,whentherewasthewholeappropriationprize,wherepeoplewereactuallyraisingmoney,Ijusthappenedtobeonlineatmidnightwatchingthathappen.Solike,it's,it'sinterestingtohearotherpeople's,sortof,perceptionsofwhatwashappeningwhenIwasthereliveseeingithappen,right?Likethere'sdifferencethere.Andsopeople'sreactionswhoareactually,youknow,you're,you'representbutyou'renotintheroomwiththesepeople,right?You'representatthetimethatit'shappening.Sothose,gettingthatperspectiveissuperimportant,notjustlikepeoplereadingyourperspectiveanddigestingitlater.Andsothat's,that'swhatIseeislike,mainstreammediaisveryfarbehind.Theculturalwork,theintellectualwork,thetheoreticalworkishappeninginlivetime,quiteoftenonsocialmediaand,and,anditgets,itdoesgetdiscountedbecause,peoplefailtorealize,IthinkalotlikewiththearcofWikipedia,right?Itwaslikeanybodycancontribute,thereforeit'svalueislessened.Butthenwhenyourealizethatanybodycancontribute,itmeansthatalsoanybodycan,canfixerrorsandyou'regettingexpertsinthefield,likeexpertsinthefieldintheir,intheseverynicheareaswhoknoweverythingaboutthethingwhoare,whoaregivingthisinformation.Thenyousortofrealize,"okay,ithasabitofavalue."Andsocialmediaisalotlikethat,is,youknow,the


17

theorizingthat'shappeningisinreactiontorealtimeevents,and,andit's,andit'svery,itcanbeverygenerativeandamazinganditmakesitreally,likesomebodywillsaysomethingandyou'relike,"ohmygosh,likethat'slikeworldchangingforme."Andallofasuddenyou'relike,"howamIfeelingaboutthat?"Andit'sallhappening.Andthenlatersomebodygetspaidto,todosortofaboringsynopsisofthatveryexcitingthingthatjusthappenedandwriteitupandbelike,"wah,wah,wah,milennials."


Chelsea: 32:15 Youknow?Andsoit's,it'sverydivorcedfromwhatwe'reactuallydoing.And,andoftenthepeoplethatendupwritingaboutitbecausetheyhavethatsortof,thataccess,don'tunderstandwhatthehellthey'rewritingabout.

Hannah(Host): 32:27 Yeah,yeah,yeah.Imean,theriseofjournalismthatisjustasummaryofaconversationthathappenedonTwitteris,isarealthing.

Chelsea: 32:35 Whereit'slikeliterallyjustscreenshotsandabitoflike,likefunny,like,"oh,lookatthat."Youknow?"Haha.Emoji"Youknow?Likethat'snotjournalism.Damn.You'reliterallytakingotherpeople'swordsandjustlike,you'renoteventryingatthatpoint.

Hannah(Host): 32:48 Yeah.Yeah.Andtogetbacktothatquestionofhow,youknow,the,theexpectationthatinparticular,likeBIPOCwritersandthinkershavetodoworkwithoutgettingrecompensebecauseyou'resellingout,andthattheappropriationofworkthathashappenedinparticularlyBlackandIndigenousintellectualsonTwitterhavingtheirworkjusttakenup,scoopedupandplacedinarticlesandtotreatedasthoughthatisoriginal,right?

Chelsea: 33:13 Yeah,yeah.Butthenicethingaboutsocialmediaandthevoicesthatareabletoaccessit,isthatnowwecancallthosethingsoutinmuchshortertime.Like,youknow,I'mthinkingaboutsomeofthescandalsinCanLitwhereyouknow,youhave,youhavelikesomeFrenchwriterswhoarelike,likeliterallyusinglikeTupac'slyricsintheirpoetryandbeingcelebratedandnobodynoticed.Right?Likeyoucan'tpullthatshitnow.LikewhenIfindoutthatsomebodylike,youknow,claimsthatI'mtheircousinandthey'relike,youknow,usingmethisway,IhearaboutitimmediatelyandIcanfindtheirFacebookandcallthemoutforit.Like--


18

Hannah(Host): 33:45 Dopeopledothat?

Chelsea: 33:45 Oh,peopledothat.Iknow.It'swild.It'swild.Yeah.People,peopledoallsortsof,makeallsortsofwildclaims.Butthethingis,isthatnowallittakesisonepersonbeinglike,"youknow,Iheardthispersonsaythat,"andthenboom!It'slikefactcheckingfromeverywhere,right?


Chelsea: 34:01 Andsoyeah,theycangoaheadanddothatandthey'regoingtocontinueto,tostealourworkandgetcreditforit.ButIthinkwithmuchless,it's,it'sa,it's,it'smuchlesseasyforthemnowbecausewe'rethere.WecanbelikeacheckoutmyTwitterfeedhere.It'sfunnyhowyour,yourarticleislikeverbatim.


Chelsea: 34:20 Andtimestampedandeverything.Youknow?

Hannah(Host): 34:22 Yeah,yeah.Anditisthat,well,itissimultaneouslyephemeralworkthat,thatsometimesneedstobearchivedinotherway,it'sstillthere.

Chelsea: 34:30 It'sthere.

Hannah(Host): 34:30 Therestillarecord.UnlessyouareoneofthosepeoplewhodeletesyourTwitterfeedeverymonth.Which...

Chelsea: 34:34 Yeah.No.

Hannah(Host): 34:36 It'sbrave.That'sabravethingtodo.

Chelsea: 34:39 SometimesIthinkaboutit.Alot.Ithinkaboutitalot.

Hannah(Host): 34:42 Yeah?


Hannah(Host): 34:42 Ialsothinkaboutitalot.

Chelsea: 34:45 God.

Hannah(Host): 34:45 There'sprobablysomereallybadtakesinthere,honestly.

Chelsea: 34:47 Iknow.Well,I'mjustlike,IoftenthinkabouthowI'msogladthatIdidn'tgrowupwithsocialmedia.


19


Chelsea: 34:52 LikeI,IsortoflikeIcametouniversity,wheretheInternetwasjuststartingtobeathing,andthankgodbecauseifIhadtolistento15yearoldmetalkaboutanything,IthinkIwouldjustvomit.


Hannah(Host): 35:06 It'sunkind.It'sunkindtohaverecordingsofourselvesasyouths.

Chelsea: 35:09 Butwhata,whatastrangenewworldweliveinwherethat'slikethenormnow.Solikeeverybody'ssortofpost,youknow,theysaythatmillennialsshouldbetheoneswhoare,youknow,itshouldbethegenerationthat'ssortoflike,likegrewupwiththeinternet.Liketheydidn'tknowanythingelse.Right?AndIthinkthat'sfairbecauselike,thesepeoplehavetheirwholelivesdocumented,youknow,inwaysthat,thatalotofuscan'tunderstand.And,andherewearedigginguptweetsfrompeople,youknow,fromsevenyearsagoandbeinglike,[angryscoldingnoise],youknow,noroomforgrowth.ButIdon'tthinkthatthat'sgoingtobesustainablewheneverybodyhastheirwholelifeoutlikethat.There'sgoingtobe,it'slikewhenyougrowupinahouse,likeaoneroomshack,Idon'tknowwhoI'mtalkingabouthere,aoneroomshackwithlotsandlotsofpeopleandyoudon'tactuallyhaveanyprivacyorbedrooms.Andsoyoucreateprivacythroughthesesortoflike,socialconventionswhereyoujustdon'tnoticethings,youdon'ttalkaboutthings.That's,Ithinkthat'sgoingtobethelandscapethatwehavetoadoptbecausenobody'sgoingtobesafe.

Hannah(Host): 36:05 Yeah.Yeah.Andthatalso,Imeanthe,theotherbigpieceofsocialmediaculturethatyoualludedtothere,whichisroomforgrowth,whatdoesitmean?Youknow,especiallywhenyouaresomebodywhoisapublicintellectual,who'sdoingalotofworkpublicly,whatdoesitmeantofuckup?Whatdoesitmeantomakeamistakewhensomanypeoplearelookingatyouandtofigureouthowtosaylike,"IwanttobeaccountableforwhatI'mdoing."


Hannah(Host): 36:27 Andalsowe'reallchangingandworkingandlearning.Andthat'sgottabesomethingthatinunderthepubliceye,we'restillallowedtodo.

Chelsea: 36:37 Yeah.Andwe'vegotgreatexamplesofhownottodothat.


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Hannah(Host): 36:40 There'smany,manyexcellentexamplesoffailuresofaccountabilityhappeningeveryday.

Chelsea: 36:45 Butagain,thisisanothercommodificationofeverything,right?Wherethey'resortoflikethat,those,thoseideasofbeingaccountableand,andsortofmakingupforthe,thefuckupsthatyou'vehad,hasbecomeanindustry.Likepeoplehirepeopletotellthemhowtodoitin,inwaysthatseemlikeit's,it'sallabouttheimage.Right?And,andIthinkthat'sabitofaproblembecauseitsortof,itdoescreatethisexpectationof,youknow,whenyoudoscrewup,here'showyouhavetodealwithit,andifyoudon'tdealwithitinthatway,thenyou'renotreallysorry,andyou'renotreallyfixingit.Butmaybethatwayisn'tactuallydoinganything.Likeyou'rejustgoingthroughthemotions.Right?Yeah.Yeah.I'malways,I'malwaysverywaryofstufflikethat.Also,I'vereally,sorry,thatjustremindedmeofahugepetpeeve."Weary"istired,"wary"issuspicious.They'renotthesamething.Stopmixingthemup.

Hannah(Host): 37:36 [Laughs]Welcometothenewsegmentofthispodcastwherewetalkaboutwordsthatpeoplecommonlymixup.

Chelsea: 37:38 Yeah,I'msorry.Iseeitallthetime.AndIusually,I'mlike,Iusuallywhenpeopledothat,I'mlike,getoverit.Butthatonereallybothersmeforsomereason.Idon'tknow.

Hannah(Host): 37:47 Wearyandwary.


Hannah(Host): 37:48 Ihavemybiggrammarbugaboois"fewer"and"less,"andit'snot,it'sastupidthingtobeannoyedby.Tryingtostopusingtheword"stupid"pejoratively.Itis--

Chelsea: 37:58 Ableismishard.

Hannah(Host): 37:59 Ableismishard.Gettingridofableistlanguageisanongoingprojectforme.Itisawasteofmyenergytobeannoyedby"fewer"and"less,"andI'mtryingreallyhardtostopbutlike,like"15itemsorless,"I'malwayslike,"givemeasharpie."

Chelsea: 38:17 [Laughs]Idon'tevenlikeEnglish.Fuckyou,English!


Chelsea: 38:20 Butit'sjustlike,Iwanttokeepmy,Iwanttokeepmyexhaustionandmysuspicionastwodifferentthings.


21


Chelsea: 38:27 Idon'twanttobeexhaustedlysuspicious.

Hannah(Host): 38:30 That'sgreat.That'sbeautiful.There'splentytogoaround,youdon'tneedthemtooverlap.

Chelsea: 38:34 Yeah,exactly.

Hannah(Host): 38:34 Dowehave,howmuch?Howarewe,howarewetime?

AVTechnician: 38:39 Yougotnineminutes.

Hannah(Host): 38:40 Nineminutes?

Chelsea: 38:42 Yeah.Let'sdosomequestions.

Hannah(Host): 38:43 Okay,soanybodyhaveany,anyquestions,orthoughts,orshortrants,orgrammarpetpeeves?


Hannah(Host): 38:50 Don'tshareyourgrammarpetpeeves.

Chelsea: 38:52 No,that'sfine.Awesome.Nicetalkingtoyou.

Hannah(Host): 39:00 Like,wecangoorwecanjustkeeptalking.

Chelsea: 39:03 No,comeonman.Iknowsomebody,ah!ah!Isawyoumove.No,I'mjust[laughs]Thismeeting.

Hannah(Host): 39:09 Thisislikeinclasswhenyou'relike,"Icanwaitlongerthanyou."

Chelsea: 39:12 Yeah,it'strue.

Hannah(Host): 39:13 ButIdon'twanttodothattothislovelyaudience.Idon'twanttostarethemdownlikeIdowithmystudents.

Chelsea: 39:18 Idon'tknow.I'mkindofenjoyingit.

Questioner#1: 39:21 Iwillsaysomething.I'menjoyingactuallyreadingyourbook.AndIthinkwhatIenjoythemostisthehumorthatyou'veinjectedintothebook.Ididn't,Ikindofexpectedittobealittle,Imean,it'sveryacademic,asfarasresearch.



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Questioner#1: 39:34 ButIappreciatethehumorthatyouinjectintoit.Itmakesmewanttokeepreadingit.Thankyou.

Chelsea: 39:40 Yeah.Well,that'sthethingiswhenyou'retalkingabouttoughsubjects,it'shardontheaudience,butit'salsohardonthepersondoingthatwork.AndsoifI,ifIcouldn'tapproachsomeofthesethingswithalittlebitofhumor,thenIdon'tthinkIcoulddothatworkatallbecausesomeofit'srealgrim.AndImean,ifyou've,youknow,like,,I,Icouldn'tdoaresidentialschoolchapter.Imean,it'sinthere,butit'snot,it'snotlikeanythingelsethatIwroteinthatbook.I,I,it'sjust,that'satopicIcan'thandle,youknow?Andthere'scertainthingsIjustcannot,Ican'tdo.Youknow,there'snoamountofhumorthatwillallowmetoapproachthattopic,andsoIhavetolike,valueorhonoredthatinmyselftoo.So,yeah.

Hannah(Host): 40:21 Other,otherquestion,questions,thoughts?Thoughtquestions?CanLit?Rob?

Questioner#2: 40:37 Ihaveaquestionthat'saboutlike,who,asaneditorofRefusedidyouapproach,whowaslike"No,fuckCanLit.I'mnotrefusingit,I'mjustnothavingthisconversation"?Andhow,likeif,ifyouweresurprisedbypeople'sresponses.AndChelsea,kindofthatsimilarconversationwhereyou'reuphere,yourparticularworkonsocialmedia,yourparticularworkon[unclear]whenIhearyousaysomethingdifferent,it'ssortoflike,yourworkingraphicnovels...


Questioner#2: 40:51 Andsoaseducatorsandhumans,andhoweveryouidentify,whereyoucomeupagainstpeoplewhoyoucareaboutandrespecttheirwork,butdoyouhaveanytacticsabouthowyounegotiate...


Hannah(Host): 41:19 That'swhatI'mgoingtorepeatthequestionjustforthepodcast.Sothequestionwasabout,whereyousortofhavereachedouttocollaboratewithpeopleandtheysayno,andthatmayormaynotsurpriseyouandsortofhowyounegotiate,sharingprojectswithpeoplebuthavingreallydifferenttacticsintermsofhowyougoaboutit.ThatwascertainlysomethingthatcameupwhenwewereapproachingpeopleforRefuse.InterestinglyIwouldsaysomepeoplesaid,youknow,"Idon'tcareaboutCanLit,I'mindifferenttoCanLitasaproject.Idon'twanttotalkaboutit."Themorecommon


23

responseinparticular,becauseweapproachedpeoplewhohadbeenspeakingoutalreadyaroundthesortofeventsthatthebookisengagingwith.Andsowhatwegotalotmoreofwaspeoplesaying,"Iamsoburnedoutonthiswork."


Hannah(Host): 42:07 Like,"Iamsotiredoftalkingaboutthis.I'mtiredof,"becausetalkingresistantlyaboutCanLitforthelastthreeyearshasbeenanincrediblypunitiveactivity,culminatingobviouslyinthelawsuitthathadlaunchedattheendoflastyearagainst23,24people,manyofwhomarestudents,precariousauthors.Solikeithasbeenlikeliterallypunishingwork.Andsowhenwereachedouttopeopleandtheywerelike,"yeah,no,Iamso,so,so,sodonetalkingaboutCanLit,"thatwassomethingthatwewerelike,"yeah,cool."Like,"Great,great.Absolutely."AndalotofthetimewereachedouttopeoplelikeAliciaElliott,wereachedoutandsaid,"you'vealreadydonethiswork.Youwroteanessaythatwasreallyfundamentaltotheseconversations.Maywejustrepublishthisandgiveyousomemoneyforit?"Andthatlike,sometimesthatwastheconversation,right?Like,you'realreadydoingtheworkandwejustwanttoarchiveitandalsopayyou.

Chelsea: 43:06 Yeah.And,andthat,that,soyeah,let'stalkaboutgettingsued.SoI'mluckilynotoneofthepeople,butonthedaythatthatsuitdroppedinthefuckingmedia,ofalltheplacestoputit,,Iwas,Iwassittingtherebeinglike,"okay,ismynamegoingtobeonthere?"Right?Andthat'sthething.It'slike,it'snot,Imean,it'snotjustthissituation.I,it'salotofsituations,butwhenyouspeakoutpublicly,aboutparticularlymaleviolenceseemstobearealflashpointforthissortoflitigiousapproach,but,butnotonly,youarethreatened.Imean,it'snotjustthe,it'snotjustthecrappythingspeoplesaytoyou.It'snotthecomplaintsthattheymaylaunchwithyourUniversityofAlbertaPoliceProtectiveServicesandsaythatyouhatewhitepeopleandyou'reracistandblah,blah,blah.Youknow,thingslikethatthathappenedbeingsuedorbeingthreatwithathreatenedwithlegalaction,particularlyinplacesthatdon'thaveanti-slaplegislationishorrifying.Like,Ihavealegalbackground,butI'vebeenthroughalitigationbeforeandit,it,itisliferuining.Likeliterally,I'mnot,that'snothyperboleatall.Itisliferuininganditdoesexactlywhatit'sintendedtodo,andit'sshutsyouup.Becauseyou,you'reyourbestapproachtothatlitigationistoabsolutelyshutdownallofyoursocialmedia,tostopspeakingpublicly,tohunkerdownuntilit'sover,andwe'retalkingsometimesyearsbeforeitblowsover.Soitdoeswhatit'sintendedtodo.Andthefactthatthatcanbewieldedwithsuch


24

ease,youknow,againstanyone,youknow,basicallyjusthavetofilea$250feetosuesomeone,right?Like,that'sprettyeasytodoandyoujustfucktheirlifeover.Thatisaviolencethatwecan'tevendoanythingaboutwhileit'shappening,becauseitmightharmthepeople,thedefendantsatthetime.Right?Sowhatdidyouknow,whatdowedoaboutthat?Likethisongoingviolenceis,andjustforgetaboutthemoney,just,justthe,thepersonalstress,theyearsofyour,ofyourlifelosttothissortofthing.Thatburnoutthatyoutalkedaboutcanbecomepermanentwherepeopleareand,peoplehavedroppedoutof,ofCanLitorotherareasthatthey'vebeenworkingonwherethey'rejustlike,"Ican'tdothatworkanymore."Andwhatarewelosingwhenwelosethoseculturalworkers?Right?We'relosingthepeoplethatweresupposedtobelosing.It's,it'sthepeoplewhoarethemostmarginalizedandlacktheresourcesthatendupdroppingout.AndsowheneverwetalkaboutCanLit,wheneverwetalkaboutresistanceorrefusal,wealsohavetotalkabouthowwe'regoingtosupportpeoplewhoarefacing,those,those,thosetacticstosilence.Howarewegoingtomakesurethattheycancontinuetodowhateverworkthattheychoosetoandthenthey'renotgrounddownbyit?Andwedon'thavethoseconversationsenough.CanLitisnotjustsomeplacewherewegoandwegettoshareourwordsandbeperhapsfettedand,andrewarded.No,it'saplacethatcanliterallylikeruinyourlife.

Hannah(Host): 46:10 Yeah.Yeah.Anditseemstobedoingsoquitedeliberately.

Chelsea: 46:14 Yep.Yep.

Questioner#3: 46:27 Canyouspeaktotherelationshipbetweensocialmediaandauthorship.Ireadyourbook,andbecauseIknewyoufromsocialmediaitmadethereadingofthebookmoreaperformatureforme.Butnotall,everyauthorisengagedinsocialmedia.Isthatagoodthing,oraretheymutuallyexclusive?


Questioner#3: 46:37 Canyouspeaktothatidea?

Hannah(Host): 46:37 Somepeopleshouldn'tbeonsocialmedia.

Chelsea: 46:39 [Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 46:39 Thequestionwasabouttherelationbetweenauthorshipandsocialmediaandhowsomeauthorsarereallypresentonsocial


25

mediaandsomearen'tthereatall,andsortofhowthatshapesauthorship.

Chelsea: 46:49 Yeah.It'satoughone.Iam,that'sa,formeitwasn'tastrategicchoice.Isortoflikebecameawriteronsocialmediabyaccident.Like,literallylikeIwroteapieceanonymouslyandthenIgotoutedbytheNationalPostanditwasatthatpointthatIkindofhadtojustlikeshitorgetoffthepot.So,butImean,thenI'veseenotherpeople,otherauthorsthatIlikedtheirworkandthentheyjustonsocialmediayourealizethatyoudon'tlikethemaspeopleandthenitruinstheirwork.Andso,youknow,they're,they'redefinitelylikepeopleouttherethatareonsocialmediathatIjustrefusetolookatitbecauseI'mlike,"Iwanttokeeplikingyou."Anda,andIhavedefinitely,Igetsomanycommentsonmyblogabouthowlike,youknow,"Ireadyourpieceanditwasreallylikegoodandeverything,butyou,youjustlostmewithyourrudecommentstopeople.Likeyour,just,yourtoneissohostileandyou'rejust,youknow,Iwasn'tracistbefore,butnow."

Audience: 47:44 [Scandalizedmurmur]


Chelsea: 47:45 Yeah.Yeah.Soit's,it's,it'ssortoftwoedged,youknow?Like,youhavetobecarefulaboutwhatyoupresentoutthere.Anditcanmeanthatpeople,itcanmeanthatyourmessageisdilutedbecausepeopledecidethattheydon'tlikeyoupersonally.Andtoacertainextentthat'slegit.LikeifpeoplethinkI'manasshole,thenthey'regoingtoreadmyworkdifferently.Right.So.

Hannah(Host): 48:06 Yeah.Yeah,it'sa,it'sfromIteachinapublishingprogramandthereceivedwisdominpublishingisthatyouwantyourauthorsonsocialmediabecausemostpresseshavevery,veryminimalmarketingbudgetsanditmeansthatyourauthorsmarketthemselves.Andsothat,thathasbecomeincreasinglyanexpectationforwriters,thatyoubepublic,thatyouhaveamarketableselfimage,thatyou'reactivelypromotingyourworkonanongoingbasisusingsocialmediatodrivethatplatform.AndIoftentalktomystudentsabouthowthatisadifferentexpectationyou'redirectingtowardsauthorsdependingonwhatsocialmediaisgoingtobelikeforthoseauthors.Becausesocialmediaisworseforwomenofcolor,socialmediaisworsefortranspeople,it'sworsefordisabled.Likeit's,itis,soif,asthatbecomesasortofuniversalizetheexpectation,it'slike,"cool.Whatlevelofemotionallaborandpotentialtraumaareyoudemandingofyourwriters?"


26

Chelsea: 49:03 Yeah.Andwhere'sthatsupport?

Hannah(Host): 49:06 Andwhere'sthesupport?Yeah.Yeah.Whenthatexperienceisterrible,becauseit'sterriblesometimes.

Chelsea: 49:11 Yeah.Oh,itis.Itissobad.SometimesI,IalwaysswearI'mgoingtogooff.And,andeverytimeIdoforawhileit'slike,it'sreallygood,but,butit'swhereIcanmarshalresourcesforotherpeople,youknow?Likeit'swhereIcanfundraisefor$50,000forscholarshipsforstudentsgoingintoNativeStudies,orlikefundraiseformyfriend'slegalfunds.

Hannah(Host): 49:32 Yep.

Chelsea: 49:32 Like,youknow,beingabletodothat,IfeellikeanobligationthatIhaveto,becauseI've,sortof,likebuiltupthisplatform.Ineedtouseit,Ineedtooperationalizeit,tohelpmakecommunity.Butman,itcomesatacost.



Hannah(Host): 49:46 Yeah.Any,dowehavetimeforone,ifthere'safinalurgentquestion.Nothing.Nourgencyfeltinthisroom.


Hannah(Host): 49:57 That'sgood.That'sgood.Wejustkeptitreallowkey.WetalkedabouthowterribleTwitteris,butinaverycalmvoice.

Chelsea: 50:03 Yeah.Yeah.

Hannah(Host): 50:04 Sothatnobodygotstressed.

Chelsea: 50:05 No,no.Everybody'sgood.


Chelsea: 50:07 Pulseratesdown.


Chelsea: 50:10 Yes.

Hannah(Host): 50:10 It'sgreat.Beautiful.


27

Marie: 50:11 Thankyousomuch.

Hannah(Host): 50:12 Thankyou!

Audience: 50:12 [Applause]

Chelsea: 50:12 Thanks.Thankssomuch.

Hannah(Host): 50:12 Nowtogetdown.

Chelsea: 50:12 Ohgod.Okay.

Marie: 50:12 CanIgiveyouahand?

Chelsea: 50:12 [Laughs]

Hannah(Host): 50:13 [Music:"BackinBlack"byAC/DC.Ifyou'dliketolearnmoreaboutChelsea,youcanfollowheronTwitter@apihtawikosisanorfollowherworkatapihtawikosisan.com.Forspellingreference?That'sAPIHTAWIKOS.ISAN.I'lllinktoitintheshownotesaswell,andyoucanfindthoseshownotesandalltheepisodesofSecretFeministAgendaonsecretfeministagenda.com.YoucanfollowmeonTwitter@hkpmcgregorandyoucantweetaboutthepodcastusingthehashtag#secretfeministagenda.Andofcourse,youcanreviewtheshowandnowthatIknowhowtodoit,I'llseeyourreviewnomatterwhatcountryyoureviewitin.Sothere'sanewreviewthisweekfromG.Audens,noideaifIsaidthatright,whorevieweditfromIceland,whichisdelightful.Thepodcast'sthemesongis"MeshShirt"byMomJeansofftheiralbumChubRub.Youcandownloadtheentirealbumonfreemusicarchive.orgorfollowthemonFacebook.Chelsea'sthemewas"BackinBlack"byAC/DC.SecretFeministAgendaisrecordedonthetraditionalanduncededterritoryoftheMusqueam,Squamish,andTsleil-WaututhfirstnationswhereI'mgratefultoliveandwork.ThishasbeenSecretFeministAgenda.Passiton.[Music:“MeshShirt”byMomJeans]