Woolston, Mike | Vol (Investigation)

Transcript of the Testimony of Mike Woolston

Date: November 6, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 13, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

Mike Woolston In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

MIKE WOOLSTON

Taken on Wednesday, November 6, 2013, from 2:28 p.m. to 3:25

p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626

S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of

Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.


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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED that this Sworn Statement may be

taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a

Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into

typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 5-8

Advice of Rights

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 MIKE WOOLSTON

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. Mr. Woolston, have you had a chance to look

6 at this Advice of Rights form?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I've indicated it's marked Exhibit #A.

9 Would you sign this and print your name above

10 your signature and put the date on there?

11 A. (Witness complies) Is today the 6th?

12 Q. Yes, it is, sir. Okay, Mr. Woolston, would

13 it be true that you have, in fact, reviewed

14 and executed the Advice of Rights form that I

15 provided to you?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. I'm going to witness that signature and put

18 the date on that. Mr. Woolston, you provided

19 I think through the City Attorney some

20 information prior to coming in here today.

21 Is that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'm going to hand you a pile of those what I

24 believe to be what he gave me. Let's see, I

25 think there is #6, also.


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1 BY COURT REPORTER: #6 was property

2 listings.

3 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) I'm going to hand you

4 what's been previously marked as Exhibits #5

5 sequentially through Exhibit 11, and let you

6 just examine those for a moment.

7 A. All right.

8 Q. Are you familiar with those exhibits?

9 A. I am.

10 Q. Is this the total exhibits that you've given

11 me?

12 A. I believe it is so, yes.

13 (Off record while Mr. Loraine has a phone call)

14 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) I'm sorry, sir. Now you

15 submitted this information I know with the

16 thought that it would assist us in getting to

17 a conclusion on one of the issues which is

18 the embarrassing issue that somehow you might

19 have done something wrong. I mean I

20 certainly sympathize with you, no

21 professional wants to be put in that kind of

22 situation for the high paying job of the City

23 Councilman, but in any case I have examined

24 them and I saw there was a memorandum in here

25 from a lawyer, I thought, from Wood.


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1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And who is Mr. Wood?

3 A. He is the managing broker of the real estate

4 company with which I was affiliated at the

5 time of the closing of those transactions.

6 Q. That was Pro 100?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And basically what he's telling me is that

9 you did not benefit from any fee that Pro 100

10 received?

11 A. With one exception.

12 Q. And you've got that exception noted?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. A certain address.

15 A. It's the first one on the list for the

16 property listings. 1825 Connecticut.

17 Q. 1825 Connecticut, yeah. Now, what was the

18 total fee to the broker Pro 100 for these

19 closings?

20 A. Approximately $200.00 apiece. Most of them

21 were minimal transactions for vacant lots. A

22 couple of them were for houses in the

23 $190,000.00, $150,000.00 range. I don't have

24 the total dollars off the top of my head.

25 Q. What would that percentage be, about 7


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1 percent?

2 A. Well, some of those would vary. The ones

3 that I dealt directly with the property

4 owners typically it would have been 3 percent

5 of the sales price. The ones that were

6 listed by other companies it would have been

7 6 or 7 percent commission and Pro 100 would

8 have gotten 45 or 50 percent of that

9 commission and Pro 100 shared that 45 or 50

10 percent which was 20 percent.

11 Q. Now that's not a lot of money, but it's

12 certainly money?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. As I understand it you were purchasing homes

15 from people in the disaster area?

16 A. I was facilitating the purchase of homes by

17 two different buyers in that area. I say

18 purchase of homes. Most of them were vacant

19 lots, there were two homes, some more or less

20 commercial locations, that kind of thing.

21 Q. At the time you were doing this facilitation

22 you were also a member of the Council?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. In fact, were you Mayor at that time?

25 A. I don't believe I was - let me look here. I


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1 was no longer Mayor at the time of any of the

2 transactions. My term as Mayor had expired

3 in early April of 2012.

4 Q. This is immediately after your term. But you

5 were still on the board?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. The Mayor thing is selected from the board

8 members pretty much on a revolving basis, I

9 guess?

10 A. There's an election of Mayor by the Council

11 every 2 years. Every Council election a new

12 Mayor is selected.

13 Q. So you, in fact, or any Council member could

14 wind up being the Mayor again?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. As long as you're on the Council?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Did you discuss with any attorney the

19 possibility of conflict of interest --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- when you were purchasing these homes?

22 A. I had a discussion with the City Attorney.

23 My principal that I was dealing with, Charles

24 Kuehn of Four State Homes, I discussed it

25 with the City Attorney a couple of times,


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1 Charlie Kuehn and I had a meeting where we

2 went to the City Attorney's office and had a

3 discussion with him about it I'm going to say

4 in probably the fall of last year.

5 Q. 2013?

6 A. August, September time frame, maybe. I don't

7 remember.

8 Q. Of '12?

9 A. Of last year, yes.

10 Q. Okay. During those discussions can you give

11 me any consensus that was arrived at?

12 A. Essentially we just talked about what we were

13 going to be doing and I just wanted to

14 protect myself in terms of the conflict of

15 interest. I got his input, his perspective

16 on it, and I don't remember his exact words,

17 but something to the effect that we just

18 would have to be careful in how we went

19 forward to make sure that I didn't do

20 something to cross the line ethically.

21 Q. As a professional I mean you have a license?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And you realize that ethics is part of the

24 profession?

25 A. Sure.


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1 Q. And that would be true of not only your

2 profession, but mine?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And so we all have when we're in one of those

5 professions we have some kind of ethical

6 responsibilities and that's what we're

7 talking about here?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Now there's another thing, you know, where

10 you're actually taking money and making money

11 off of these things and that's of course

12 maybe worse, you understand, for the law?

13 You I guess would agree on that?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. But the appearance of impropriety can be an

16 issue, and you're aware of that and have been

17 aware of that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So would it be safe to say that you

20 consciously decided to go forward and acquire

21 these properties nonetheless?

22 A. I made sure that the manner in which I worked

23 with the prospective buyer was one that did

24 not violate any ethics as per the City

25 Attorney.


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1 Q. What standard did he give you?

2 A. Essentially as I recall if I would have

3 collected money on the commissions that that

4 would be a problem.

5 Q. Well, that deals with the first half of what

6 we were talking about. It may not deal with

7 the appearance of improprieties.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. I'm probably dealing with both here today.

10 Do you follow that?

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. There is a little bit of nuance there, but I

13 wanted to make sure. And I guess you

14 attempted to deal with both of them or you

15 wouldn't have gone to an attorney?

16 A. I attempted to keep myself out of hot water.

17 I don't think for anybody that does their

18 homework I don't think there's any appearance

19 of impropriety because the first property is

20 one where initially the people had planned to

21 build a commercial strip center and there was

22 no discussion of a library/theater complex.

23 The remaining properties to my knowledge

24 there is an opportunity for the buyers to

25 work in sort of a public/private partnership,


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1 but to my knowledge that agreement has not

2 been formalized in writing at this point. So

3 I've tried to avoid the appearance of

4 impropriety even though to my knowledge

5 there's not a written agreement that that

6 will involve public money at this point. My

7 understanding still right now it would be a

8 private sector project.

9 Q. This property has been acquired for what

10 purpose?

11 A. These properties, most of those will be --

12 Q. Let's deal with the numbers here, Number 1

13 through - let's see, Number 1 would be

14 excluded from our discussion now.

15 A. Okay. Any of the properties that were

16 purchased by the Jennings-Brown family are

17 properties that will be involved in the

18 library/theater project. Any properties

19 purchased by Four State Homes whose owner is

20 Charles Kuehn, those will be utilized for

21 retail, loft over retail project that there

22 is the possibility it may be in partnership

23 with the Wallace-Bajjali firm, but again I

24 don't know of any formalized written

25 agreement that that will take place. I


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1 avoided taking a commission because I thought

2 there might be that potential there.

3 Q. So essentially you were working for nothing?

4 A. On most of those, yes.

5 Q. So what did you accomplish by doing that?

6 A. I felt like it was an opportunity to help

7 rebuild or make some effort towards the

8 rebuilding of a particular part of the City.

9 I'm very concerned about how we go about our

10 rebuild. I think we have a once in a

11 lifetime opportunity to shape to a large

12 degree what our community looks like in the

13 next 10 or 15 or 50 years and I wanted to

14 have a part in that.

15 Q. Any of these sections of property that you

16 were involved in, do they deal with your

17 particular ward or whatever the proper term

18 is?

19 A. I'm a general Council member so I represent

20 the entire City.

21 Q. So you get elected at large?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Now there are some Councilmen that are

24 elected from a certain ward?

25 A. Correct.


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1 Q. Okay. But at this time and in the past you

2 were --

3 A. I have always been an at large.

4 Q. It's a tougher election, isn't it?

5 A. Always competition.

6 Q. Yeah, I would think. So out of the spirit,

7 if you will, of civil pride you took part in

8 this without commission?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Now do you think if your company that you

11 work with got a commission was there any

12 special favors or gifts or benefits to you in

13 that regard?

14 A. No, nothing I got, nothing more than any

15 other agent there.

16 Q. No profit sharing of any sort?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. You were not part of the ownership?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Now as a result you're still with Four State

21 Homes now?

22 A. I was never affiliated with Four State Homes.

23 Four State Homes is the company that

24 purchased a number of those properties.

25 Q. And that's Mr. Kuehn?


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1 A. Correct. I was affiliated at the time with

2 Pro 100. I'm not affiliated with New

3 Horizons Realty.

4 Q. And New Horizons, in fact, does involve Mr.

5 Kuehn?

6 A. It does not.

7 Q. Does not. Who does New Horizons involve?

8 A. Myself and a gentleman named Kevin Steele.

9 Q. Does Steele have anything to do with any of

10 these?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Who is Kevin Steele?

13 A. He's my partner. He's a commercial land

14 developer, recently got licensed as a real

15 estate agent.

16 Q. Always worked in Joplin?

17 A. No, he has worked extensively in the

18 Carolinas and Georgia and to some extent

19 here.

20 Q. Does he follow the tornados?

21 A. No, he was here prior to the tornado. He

22 actually grew up here, went to high school

23 there.

24 Q. You knew him from that?

25 A. Didn't know him from then. I've only


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1 recently gotten acquainted with him.

2 Q. Okay. So he's a transplant, but come back

3 home?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Is there any benefit in any way from any of

6 these transactions other than 1, and we'll

7 talk about 1 in a minute, I'm making

8 reference to Exhibit #5 here, Number 1 we'll

9 exclude, that's the 1825 Connecticut

10 property, but as in regards to 2 through 19

11 is there any benefit to you or to your

12 companies that you're now affiliated with

13 that results from any of your work here?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Let's chat a little bit about, if I can,

16 about number 1 on there, this 1825

17 Connecticut. Yes, that's marked on Exhibit

18 #6 here.

19 A. It's number 1 over here, yes.

20 Q. Now that was as I understand you actually got

21 paid a commission?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And how much commission did you make?

24 A. Oh, it was probably $3,000.00 or $4,000.00.

25 I don't recall.


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1 Q. Was this a building?

2 A. It was a house, an existing house.

3 Q. Existing house?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And your percent of the commission --

6 A. It previously was an existing house. After

7 the tornado it was basically just a vacant

8 lot.

9 Q. Oh, okay. It was taken out?

10 A. Correct, this whole area was in the tornado

11 path.

12 Q. Now refresh me, why do you think that that

13 commission to you is not relevant to our

14 inquiry?

15 A. When Jennings purchased that property their

16 intent - they own property here that's in

17 green and their intent after the tornado was

18 to build a strip center in this area. They

19 had an office here. Their family owned the

20 McDonald's locally, restaurants locally, and

21 they had intended initially to build some

22 sort of a commercial strip center as an

23 investment property. That was in the early

24 part of 2012. In September or October the

25 library project, which we had gotten an EDA


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1 grant to help construct, EDA said they wanted

2 that building to be rebuilt in the tornado

3 zone, so it wasn't until September or October

4 there was any discussion of building a

5 library/theater project in this area. So

6 when we closed on that property the Jennings

7 intent was to build an investment property

8 for themselves.

9 Q. And do you think that in some way makes this

10 an exception that you can take a fee?

11 A. Sure. And the City didn't even have their

12 agreement with the Wallace-Bajjali firm

13 signed until I think it was early July of

14 that year.

15 Q. What you're telling me is there was no inside

16 information?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That in any way benefited you from that?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Can you see, and I'm not meaning this as a

21 lecture, but can you see that your

22 involvement in this event has caused you a

23 lot of grief?

24 A. I don't think it's caused me a lot of grief.

25 I can see an uninformed person who didn't pay


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1 a great deal of attention to details might

2 think there was something underhanded going

3 on, but if they would look into it I think

4 I've taken very careful steps to ensure that

5 I didn't cross the line ethically and I've

6 taken what steps I could to ensure that it

7 wasn't perceived as something unethically.

8 Q. And you're making reference to maybe Mr.

9 Scearce?

10 A. Actually it's Dr. Rosenberg that said that he

11 had had comments from people that I was using

12 inside information to make money and acquire

13 these properties on the cheap, sell them at

14 an exorbitant profit, and that the

15 Wallace-Bajjali firm was purchasing them.

16 Well, in fact, the Wallace-Bajjali firm

17 hasn't purchased any of those properties and

18 relative to his reference to the exorbitant

19 prices I think this is a lot of what's

20 driving those prices up along that area,

21 that's a property right on the corner

22 immediately south, it would be this corner

23 right here that was purchased by Casey's

24 convenience store people and they paid

25 $800,000.00 for that corner.


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1 Q. For the lot?

2 A. For the lot, which was about $14.00 a foot.

3 And most of the properties we have been

4 acquiring here we've been trying to limit our

5 cost to the $4.00 to $5.00 or $6.00 per

6 square foot range. So it's not the

7 properties that I've been involved with that

8 have driven the price, it's this parcel

9 that's driven the price.

10 Q. And you're making reference to what I have

11 marked as Exhibit #11?

12 A. Yes. And I would point out, by the way, I

13 had nothing to do with the transaction in

14 Exhibit #11.

15 Q. Yes, I'm going to give you Exhibit #6 and I

16 want that big dark green marker we've got. I

17 would like you to put an "X" on where Exhibit

18 #11 would be if you understood what I said.

19 A. Sure.

20 Q. Put an "X" in there and put your initials

21 there.

22 A. (Witness complies)

23 Q. Okay. Have you done that, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Put a green "X" on Exhibit #11 with your


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1 initials?

2 A. "MRW".

3 Q. "MRW", okay. So the record reflects what

4 we're trying to get at here. What else in

5 these exhibits are there that you would - for

6 example, I'm going to give you Exhibit #8 and

7 I'm going to give you Exhibit #9.

8 A. Exhibit #8 is a listing of Council votes from

9 September 2012 through September 2013. This

10 list was requested by Dr. Rosenberg of the

11 City Clerk, and I have gone through it.

12 There was one indication that I've used

13 inside information to make money off these

14 transactions and I've highlighted in this

15 list those properties or those votes where I

16 have abstained because anything relative to

17 Four State Homes or Charlie Kuehn when that

18 comes to a Council vote whether it be a

19 zoning issue, a special use permit, whatever

20 the case, I have abstained on those because

21 of my financial involvement with him. And

22 I've merely marked those because those were

23 available to me already, I merely marked

24 those where I have abstained so that you

25 could find where I've abstained. You might


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1 want to go back to actually the tornado to

2 get additional Council votes to find where I

3 have abstained because most of these I looked

4 up and have provided copies of in Exhibit #9

5 and most of them don't really have anything

6 to do with Mr. Kuehn. Certainly not to the

7 extent of the ones that I have abstained. So

8 there are more abstentions that I've got out

9 there, they just don't happen to be on this

10 list. But on the ones on this list of

11 Exhibit #8 I have provided a copy of the

12 agenda, on Exhibit #9 and the caption for

13 each of those Council bills so that you would

14 know what the topic.

15 Q. To show what the topic was and that you

16 abstained?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. If I were to go back through the tornado

19 notes, and I mean everything we do costs

20 money, exorbitant money, but if we did pull

21 all of those and we went through and I

22 brought you back in here and we talked about

23 those you're telling me that any time you

24 were involved in some with Four Seasons or

25 with --


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1 A. Four State Homes.

2 Q. -- Four State Homes or with Charlie you would

3 have abstained?

4 A. That is correct. For instance, I'm looking

5 at Exhibit #9, the last page on Council bill

6 2013-297, it's a vacation of a utility

7 easement on a property where he's doing a

8 project. On looking at page 3 of Exhibit #9,

9 Council bill 2013-294, the Salvation Army is

10 going to build a new building. I've been

11 keeping in contact with them to try to get an

12 opportunity bid that project. So I don't

13 have a financial involvement in that point

14 yet. I potentially might, but we're just

15 trying to get an opportunity to bid the

16 project knowing that we may not get it due to

17 our bid. So I've abstained on that just

18 because the potential is there, even though

19 there's no financial interest in it at this

20 time. So those are some examples of why I

21 have abstained simply because I didn't want

22 the appearance of impropriety to be out there

23 so anything that Four State Homes or Charlie

24 Kuehn has been involved in, whether

25 personally or his company, I have abstained.


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1 Q. How long does that go back?

2 A. I first got involved and began to work with

3 him probably within a couple of months after

4 the tornado. I'd say probably August of

5 2011. And that's why if you go back and

6 check the record the Council bills listed in

7 Exhibit #8 only go back to September 2012.

8 If you go back to August of 2011 you probably

9 would find more abstentions.

10 Q. You're saying I would find more?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And this is because of the relationship

13 you've got with Charlie?

14 A. Exactly.

15 Q. Now Charlie has expressed some concern for

16 you not making money. What's that all about?

17 A. He's just a stand-up guy, I guess. He knows

18 that nobody can survive without making an

19 income. And I'm fortunate enough that I've

20 had income from other real estate

21 transactions and so although it's difficult

22 to give those up still I can survive and make

23 a living based on my other properties, or

24 transactions I've been involved in.

25 Q. What was it that he's trying to do to help


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1 you make money?

2 A. He's not necessarily trying to help me make

3 money, but we continue to work together on

4 various projects. He has a number of

5 investors with whom he works, several of them

6 are building commercial buildings. We are

7 working together to find tenants for those.

8 Another instance is the Salvation Army

9 building. I'm trying to once they're ready

10 to put their building out for bid I'm trying

11 to have a contact with them such that we

12 would have an opportunity to take their

13 request for bid, put a bid together, and

14 submit it to them so that he might get the

15 construction work from that project. So we

16 continue to work together because I think we

17 have a mutual interest in rebuilding the city

18 in a positive way and influencing what our

19 city looks like going forward after the

20 tornado.

21 Q. Of course Charlie also wants to make money?

22 A. Sure.

23 Q. And I assume you do?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. So I mean the road that you're following in


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1 this regard is going to be all these lined

2 with mine fields?

3 A. Sure.

4 Q. And that's something that you're willing to

5 put up with and be an alderman?

6 A. For now, yes.

7 Q. Okay. How would the City identify projects

8 that Charlie is thinking about that the City

9 doesn't know about yet that you do?

10 A. The City to my knowledge wouldn't have any

11 way to identify something that he's just

12 thinking about.

13 Q. And working on.

14 A. At some point through the permitting process

15 he has to initiate some kind of action to get

16 City's approval for building permits or

17 zoning or alley vacations or whatever the

18 case, and the City would know at that point

19 in addition to my disclosing that I had some

20 involvement with him on a particular project.

21 Q. And I assume that on those kinds of projects

22 you're going to be acutely aware that you

23 need to abstain and not talk to zoning

24 people?

25 A. Certainly.


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1 Q. And of course as I understand your city, if

2 you as an alderman talk with somebody in the

3 Zoning Department trying to favorably impress

4 them to make a decision you could be

5 impeached for that?

6 A. I probably could. I talk with them

7 frequently on Charlie's projects and other

8 projects, but typically what I request is so

9 that I understand what they need or

10 understand the process. It's never to lobby

11 for what he's doing. And frequently when I

12 go down there I'll let them know that I'm

13 there as a private member of the community as

14 opposed to a Council member requesting

15 information.

16 Q. But it also identifies to those zoning people

17 or those people in the City that this is a

18 project that you might be involved with and

19 maybe they're going to treat it more

20 gingerly?

21 A. Obviously they know that I'm a Council member

22 and I worry about that on occasion because

23 I'm sure that we as Council members get

24 treated a little differently than any other

25 private citizen when we go in making


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1 essentially the same request.

2 Q. I'll guarantee you do.

3 A. Sure.

4 Q. I mean they work for you.

5 A. Sure.

6 Q. So that could cause some degree or

7 consternation on the part of an adverse

8 decision by those City employees. Do you

9 understand that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you still choose to do that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You know, it's a matter of you making money,

14 I suppose.

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. And not giving up political power in the

17 City, is that right?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Now I know that at some point in the past

20 I've seen something somewhere it seems to me

21 that Attorney Head had written some kind of

22 opinion.

23 A. If you'll look at Exhibit #10 at the Mayor's

24 request I think probably by another Council

25 member.


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1 Q. Who was that?

2 A. Don't know. I was not told. But at the

3 Mayor's request the City Attorney conducted

4 an investigation and he issued a written

5 opinion dated April 26th of this year

6 basically stating that he had looked into my

7 involvement with Mr. Kuehn and quoting the

8 City Attorney, "It does not appear that any

9 violation occurred." At the end of the memo

10 he reiterates, again quoting, "It is our

11 opinion that Council member Woolston has not

12 violated any provisions of statute or code,"

13 so my opinion this has been investigated

14 before, but per Dr. Rosenberg he's been

15 getting questions from the public and I don't

16 have any problem answering the public's

17 questions. I think those questions need to

18 be answered because I think the public needs

19 to have confidence that there's nothing

20 underhanded going on at the Council level.

21 The only way to do that is to answer their

22 questions so I have welcomed this

23 investigation even given its cause. And some

24 people in the public have admonished Council

25 members generally for spending the money that


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1 it's going to cost, but again I think our

2 entire recovery is at stake. If the public

3 believes that the Council is doing something

4 under the table or something that's improper

5 and that's why I called for the investigation

6 of Mr. Scearce and the FBI file because the

7 public has those questions, and until they

8 get answers those questions are going to

9 continue to be out there. And so we've got

10 to get a look at that FBI file in order to

11 answer the questions to reassure them that

12 either something was done wrong or something

13 wasn't. And I'm not saying he's done

14 anything wrong. I don't have any evidence

15 one way or the other. I'm just saying the

16 public's questions have to be answered and

17 the only way to get those answers is to get

18 that file. But if the public has questions

19 about me and my involvement I'll be happy to

20 visit with any of them or answer any

21 questions because I've done nothing wrong.

22 Q. Of course that same position is taken and has

23 been taken by Mr. Scearce?

24 A. True.

25 Q. So he may have not done anything wrong


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1 either?

2 A. And he may not have.

3 Q. I mean this perception issue that's going on

4 here seems to be the real enemy.

5 A. Sure.

6 Q. And you know dealing with real estate

7 sometimes perception on a piece of property

8 can devaluate its cost?

9 A. Sure.

10 Q. You're aware of that kind of thing?

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. Somebody get killed or something on a

13 property and blames bloody murder, nobody

14 wants to buy it because there's ghosts in

15 there or blood on the floor.

16 A. True.

17 Q. You know, perception is an issue. I guess

18 that's what we're dealing with here.

19 A. Sure.

20 Q. Maybe we'll do more and maybe we'll find it.

21 But I'm going to ask you a question and I'm

22 not trying to trick you, I'm going to inform

23 you, and maybe you don't know, but is Charlie

24 Kuehn registered as a lobbyist?

25 A. I don't know that he is or isn't.


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1 Q. There is a state statute on that. Did you

2 know that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You know, Charlie is in a position that it

5 looks to me, and I'll be talking to Charlie

6 if he'll come in, and I don't want you to

7 talk about what we talk in here, we're trying

8 to keep this, you know, as secret as

9 possible, but Charlie is in a position that

10 he influences public voters. You know,

11 you're a public voter and you vote and you're

12 a public official. Now you're trying to make

13 it - I mean it sounds to me like you're

14 trying to not vote on anything that Charlie

15 deals with.

16 A. Right.

17 Q. But the perception of that issue if Charlie

18 is not registered as a local lobbyist that

19 could be an issue here.

20 A. I wouldn't disagree with you because I don't

21 know, but I don't think that's probably any

22 different than any other real estate agent

23 that represents a client that goes to

24 advocate for a particular zoning issue or

25 neighbors that come forward to advocate for


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1 somebody that's trying to get labor on a

2 privacy fence or something like that, I don't

3 think probably there's any desire to do

4 something inappropriate. I think that people

5 that should be registered as a lobbyist and

6 aren't it's simply because they don't know

7 they should.

8 Q. Okay. I just mention that to you because I'm

9 not trying to blindside anybody.

10 A. Sure. I just think there's probably at a

11 City Council level there's probably a lot of

12 people come forward and advocate a position

13 not knowing that they should be registered or

14 not.

15 Q. I think you're right. But if they regularly

16 do that I think there is a state statute on

17 that. So we might want to look at that.

18 A. And I think that would be something that if

19 there is and it would be applicable I would

20 think that our local board of realtors would

21 want to know that so they can get that

22 information out to the realtor community to

23 make sure those people get registered or

24 being cautious about how they advocate --

25 Q. Good point.


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1 A. -- for their clients.

2 Q. Good point. It's something that, you know,

3 I've done this considerable times and I've

4 seen things like that. I think it

5 inadvertently happened, but there is

6 something to deal with there. On the state

7 level you can lobby all you want, but you do

8 have to be a lobbyist.

9 A. Right.

10 Q. I mean you can say anything you want to those

11 guys up there, but I think they're just

12 asking for registration on those things so

13 that people can be identified as to who is

14 influencing policy.

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. In your opinion you've not made any profit in

17 any way on anything that has arisen before

18 you as a Councilman?

19 A. With one exception in that area.

20 Q. That's the number 1 we've been talking about

21 in the exhibit?

22 A. Correct. There are other projects where I

23 have been involved with Mr. Kuehn and other

24 investors, I have abstained on those because

25 I have collected commission on some of those,


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1 so they are not in areas where there is going

2 to be any public money involvement, but again

3 that's just part of the intricacies of my

4 involvement with Mr. Kuehn is that we're not

5 limited to just this one project.

6 Q. Let me ask you this question. There's a

7 theater issue going on now?

8 A. Uh-huh.

9 Q. And has the property been identified?

10 A. Yes, that's the 18th and Connecticut

11 property.

12 Q. Do other people know that?

13 A. It's been in the newspaper a number of times.

14 It's all this property right here in the

15 orange and green.

16 Q. And that's where a theater is going to be

17 built?

18 A. The City has currently a library downtown and

19 the library people would like to move,

20 enlarge their space. They have identified

21 that area of town where they should be given

22 their people they market to. As I said in

23 September or October of 2012 I guess it was

24 the EDA said that for the money that they had

25 given the City they wanted the library built


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1 in the tornado zone so that then prompted a

2 discussion of this particular area here. So

3 at that point there began to be some

4 discussion of a library project there as a

5 way for the library. To have some sustaining

6 revenue someone came up with the idea of

7 putting in a movie theater up above and let

8 the lease payments from the movie theater

9 company pay the expenses of the library, so

10 that's where this library/major theater

11 concept came from. But again my

12 understanding or recollection is that the

13 discussion of that particular location did

14 not occur until September or October of 2012.

15 Q. September '12. That was after the tornado?

16 A. About 15 months after.

17 Q. Is there a ravine that runs through there or

18 a ditch or something?

19 A. No, there's a storm water drainage ditch a

20 couple of blocks to the west.

21 Q. Anything else that you should tell me before

22 I go on to different topics about this

23 particular thing or anything in general?

24 A. Can't think of anything. I think all the

25 documents that I provided should be pretty


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1 linear in terms of pointing you as to what

2 I've done and been involved in.

3 Q. Are you aware of any of the facts surrounding

4 the famous note?

5 A. Just as I recall from newspaper accounts the

6 note supposedly has the name of the local

7 newspaper editor on it, an individual's name,

8 and a phone number, and I don't know if the

9 phone number - I assume was for the Joplin

10 Globe - that supposed is in the handwriting

11 of the City Manager. Beyond that I really

12 don't know.

13 Q. How did you get that information?

14 A. Newspaper.

15 Q. What is your perception on the City Manager's

16 position that it was stolen off his desk?

17 A. I don't know how it was acquired and I really

18 don't understand the relevance of the note.

19 If it's in his handwriting his secretary

20 could have told them that the editor called,

21 here was her phone number, and this is who

22 she wanted to talk about. I don't know that

23 it really tells you anything in my mind. I

24 think the greater concern or question in the

25 public's mind is how did it go from the City


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1 Manager's desk or office to Mr. Scearce's

2 position. I think that's the good question.

3 Q. And you don't know that?

4 A. I don't have any idea. I know Mr. Scearce

5 mentioned to me at the time of the Council

6 meeting when the discussion was to hire an

7 investigation Mr. Scearce and I left Council

8 chambers, stepped out in the hall, he went

9 out one door, I went out the door on the

10 other side of the room and he came around to

11 where I was sitting, and the speaker system

12 is such that out in the hallway you can hear

13 what's going on inside the chamber. And

14 someone brought that up about the note and he

15 said it was taken off of the floor, but he

16 didn't say by who. He has since indicated

17 that he'll provide a chain of custody, how he

18 came into possession of that, so that's all I

19 know about that.

20 Q. And what role do you believe that has to do

21 with anything?

22 A. I really don't see that it has any role. I

23 mean I don't know that there's any

24 information on there that tells you anything

25 one way or the other. Again I think the


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1 bigger question is how did it go from the

2 City Manager's office to Mr. Scearce's

3 possession.

4 Q. And my comments earlier were on the purchase

5 or sale of homes. Obviously I intended that

6 to be extended to leasing or anything of that

7 nature. Your answers would not change?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And do you claim to have any inside knowledge

10 at all about Scearce's bookmaking history?

11 A. No. I know he's fairly interested in sports,

12 but beyond that I don't have a great deal of

13 knowledge.

14 Q. Is this something that, and I guess - I mean

15 you asked for the inquiry.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Are you interested in impeaching him for some

18 particular specific purpose?

19 A. Not particularly impeach him, I just think

20 that the public has questions about what was

21 going on and what his level of involvement

22 was. My assumption is that if there was any

23 criminal involvement he would have been

24 charged by the FBI.

25 Q. That's kind of what I think.


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1 A. So since they didn't charge him I'm assuming

2 there was no criminal things. But the FBI

3 doesn't look for violations of Council ethics

4 or rules or whatever, and given the public's

5 questions I think that's what the Council has

6 to determine. What I'm looking for from you

7 as the investigator is to get that file

8 eventually, go through it, and tell us any

9 pertinent information relative to his

10 involvement at the Council ethics, rules, or

11 whatever the case, and then Council would

12 decide if there was anything inappropriate or

13 not. And so I think again --

14 Q. To do that one has to get the FBI file.

15 A. Sure.

16 Q. And also to do that one has to have

17 cooperation on the Police Chief?

18 A. Sure. And I think you'd get that. But I

19 think the public has questions and if those

20 questions aren't answered I think the

21 credibility of the Council is at risk, people

22 will lose confidence in the Council

23 decisions, and I think if that happens our

24 recovery, which even at the federal level

25 they rave about how well we have done, if the


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1 public loses trust in the Council's

2 leadership and decisions the recovery is

3 going to stop. At whatever point that

4 happens we'll be at that same point 10, 15,

5 20 years down the road and that's my concern.

6 That's why I called for the investigation

7 because the public has got questions and

8 those questions need to be answered in order

9 for us to stay on a positive path.

10 Q. When I issue the report traditionally my

11 reports don't let go of these interviews. Do

12 you understand why?

13 A. Sure.

14 Q. I mean these interviews are extremely

15 sensitive issues for everybody. You know, I

16 will tell you that we try to keep this all

17 within the confines of this room, but there

18 are other issues that pop up when these

19 things happen.

20 A. Sure, and I can understand your desire to

21 limit the information to this room because of

22 things that may be involved, other people. I

23 don't know what everybody else has

24 interviewed, how that's gone, but I will tell

25 you I would have no problem with you


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1 releasing my interview. I would give the

2 media the same answers that I've given you.

3 Again I don't feel that I've done anything

4 wrong and I think I've made not an

5 extraordinary effort, but I've certainly made

6 a concerted effort to avoid any conflict of

7 interest and I think I've proven that once

8 you go through here so I'm very comfortable

9 with the public knowing what I've said in my

10 answers to your questions.

11 Q. Would you be interested - you don't view this

12 as my employer, you'd be interested to know

13 that Mr. Scearce feels the same way? I mean

14 does that surprise you?

15 A. No, not really. And like I said I don't know

16 the extent of what he's done or not done so I

17 can't make a judgment until I do know that.

18 Q. But I just mean I find it interesting that I

19 think you - you know, we have obviously a

20 divided Council to some extent, but that's

21 not all bad, you know. I mean nobody ever

22 said that's bad.

23 A. There needs to be healthy discussion --

24 Q. Absolutely.

25 A. -- and agreement for the public's benefit.


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1 Q. Absolutely. And I just don't - but sometimes

2 these things, like a blood clot, just all of

3 a sudden it gets cut loose because of some

4 other activity and it's collateral damage.

5 A. Right.

6 Q. And we may have some of that in this case.

7 So anything else that we should talk about

8 then?

9 A. I don't know if there's anything else

10 officially we should talk about. I'd just be

11 curious about the time line of how you see

12 this going. I really can't complete the

13 thing on him until you get the FBI file so

14 there's no way of knowing how long that's

15 going to take.

16 Q. Well, I'll be frank with you. I've been

17 Assistant U.S. Attorney and I have worked

18 with the FBI when I've been out of the U.S.

19 Attorney's office and I'll be surprised if

20 you get an FBI report on that issue ever.

21 And, you know, I've got a couple of witnesses

22 that I probably will - it's not just my

23 opinion, and I will probably in this report

24 disclose that, but I think that's going to be

25 very frustrating and some people just won't


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1 cooperate and I'm surprised.

2 Q. And that's part of the reason I called for an

3 investigation in hopes that the City through

4 you would request exactly the same

5 information that's been requested by the

6 Globe and then we would send letters to our

7 federal legislatures copying them on our

8 request and hopefully that will get the FBI's

9 attention. It may not. But my hope was that

10 given that additional letter and our federal

11 legislatures have been contacted or copied on

12 it that the FBI would speed up the process by

13 which they're getting to us. According to

14 the Globe what they've said is that the FBI

15 is redacting what they don't want to reveal

16 or whatever so I guess that's where we're at.

17 Q. I'll let you know right now I've talked with

18 two people that have supposed knowledge in

19 this and both of them have nothing to say and

20 are under admonition by the FBI not to deal

21 with it. And it doesn't deal with this guy

22 anyway, it deals with bigger issues.

23 A. Because that stuff I don't care about.

24 They're supposed to have taken care whatever

25 interest they have in those other people.


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1 But I'm also interested in your final report.

2 Knowing that you may never get that FBI file

3 that's kind of an open ended time frame. If

4 you conclude your investigation on me, and I

5 would think you could probably get that

6 wrapped up in a week or less, once you draw

7 your conclusions on that are you going to

8 hold that until and give the entire report at

9 one time, or are you going to --

10 Q. No, I'll give the entire report at one time

11 and it will probably be done before December.

12 I don't see an issue past that. And if

13 there is we can revisit it, but I don't see

14 any.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. So I don't think I have anything further.

17 Let me just briefly scan a couple of notes

18 I've got and then we'll kind of wrap our

19 situation up here. And what was that in

20 reference to? I forgot his name, I'm sorry.

21 A. My partner, my current --

22 Q. Oh, yeah, current. That's New Horizons?

23 A. Correct.

24 (Short break taken 3:23 to 3:24 p.m., back on

25 record)


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1 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Councilman Woolston, I have

2 appreciate your cooperation.

3 A. Do you have any questions on the information

4 that I've provided that I can clarify while

5 I'm here?

6 Q. I think not. And if there becomes an issue

7 that I'd like to talk about later I'll chat

8 with you if possible. I would bring it to

9 your attention to try not to talk to anybody

10 about this.

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. I mean one of my admonishments if you were a

13 City employee I would tell you if you talk

14 about it you're subjecting yourself to

15 discipline. Obviously I can't tell you that,

16 but I want you to try to honor that.

17 A. You don't want people collaborating on their

18 stories.

19 Q. No, we really don't.

20 A. Understand.

21 Q. Thank you, sir, for your help. I do

22 appreciate it.

23 A. All right.

24 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

25


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1

2


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 6th

day of November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was

examined. That examination was then taken by me by

steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn

Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set

out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith

returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Woolston, Mike | Vol (Investigation)

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