Web viewTalking about relationships and being connected and I will use that word so many times ......

NDIS Housing Showcase VIC - Afternoon (AUNDIS3105B)

PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY:Good afternoon, everybody, welcome back after lunch and what I have found to be an interested morning. There are lots of ways for transition and new models and that's really excellent.

Today we are changing the program in that we are finishing the showcasing and then we are moving to the Q&A session because we thought that was more sensible.

Let's invite Su-Hsien, who is going to talk to us about WA's Individualised Services. Up here, I was looking at the video, which I thought was fantastic, and there was an example of one from WA, where Arthur talked about his son Jonathan living in the community and doing very well after some really serious behavioural issues in group homes. And I thought that was a great example. Over to you to hear all about it.

SU-HSIEN LEE: Thank you. Hello, everybody. We are not a service provider, we actually promote and advance individualised supports and services and we do that primarily with capacity building with service providers and people in families.

We've got a table over there if you would like more information later on.

‘Shared lives’ is the collective term used for a range of approaches that support people in one of the most natural and beneficial ways possible. Real people connecting, supporting and sharing their lives.

Shared living arrangements have been designed by people and families, together with providers for more than 50 years in Western Australia. The term we use, 'shared living', is different to the term ‘shared living’ used by the NDIA.

The term was developed in WA over the last 50 years and it's about individualised support arrangements. You will see it in the next few minutes. It is talking about people with disability and their supporters sharing their lives together, more so than just having formal support arrangements in place.

There are some principles underpinning the shared living support arrangement, we are calling it shared lives, belonging and connections. Talking about relationships and being connected and I will use that word so many times in the next few minutes.

Independent living, ordinary living. Self-determination, giving you control of your own life. Flexibility, deciding how to use and manage your own resources. Choice, choosing your home and the life you have. And trust, being an equal partner in the relationships you have in life.

With shared lives, we have two broad categories of arrangements. It is not a one size fits all by any means. Shared lives, the one option is having an individual that moves into the supporter's home or having alternatively a supporter moving into the individual's home. The supporter could be an individual, a couple or a family.

As I was saying, shared lives is about relationships and about the mutuality and reciprocity of


the relationship. And it's because of the nature of the relationship that this support arrangement can develop new opportunities in everyday life experiences for the individual being supported.

Similarly, it has the potential to provide new experiences for the person providing the support.

As I mentioned before, there are many shared living arrangements. And they are all tailored to the individual being supported. They differ in a range of ways. They differ in how the home is arranged, how the support is tailored to the individual person and how they share their lifestyle on a day-to-day basis, which goes beyond the formal supports that might be part of the arrangement.

They share the same aim of providing support and opportunities for the individual through the relationships formed.

Over the years, what we have found makes it work, the technical details are important but, again, it's really around the quality of the relationship. And the key elements that people and families tell us that make a difference with shared lives is compatibility and connectedness between the supporter and the individual, mutual respect and understanding, commitment and openness.

The key investment is in the person, their capacity and their vulnerabilities. Then designing and developing the right support arrangement which is embedded in the families and communities. Designing and developing the right support arrangement is the key here, finding the right supporters, and once you have found them, designing and developing the right support arrangement that meets all their needs.

That can take a long time but that is what ensures the sustainability of the arrangement. Celebrating and supporting the arrangement so it can be sustainable. Supporting the supporter as well and considering all the legal and regulatory requirements.

I wanted to end the presentation sharing a story. You saw Jonathan Tan's video earlier. We wanted to talk about Nicholas Johns. A couple of years ago, the family has given us permission to share this story, he was a young man labelled with severe intellectual handicap having very few capacities, non-verbal, unable to communicate – assumed he could not communicate – isolated, frustrated and deteriorating in his ability.

He was demonstrating behaviours as described by others as challenging and living with seven others in group living. The State government wanted to transfer a lot of their accommodation across to the non-government area and the parents used this time to plan for a different living arrangement for Nicholas.

In doing so, they found shared lives was a good support arrangement for them and they designed and developed a support arrangement. With that, Nick is living in his own home with people he trusts, his needs are being understood and met, he is able to be heard and more importantly understood when expressing his needs and feelings, and he is learning new skills around his home and community.

His communication is a focus now and it is slowly developing. He is known by the people

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around him by his capacities and what he can offer himself and others. He is learning to be independent. His family is also finding him smiling and engaged and leading the way as to how he wants his life to look.

I'm going to end with this short part of the video.

(Video plays)

SPEAKER: ..Believing him quite capable of many things. (Inaudible)

SPEAKER: When we started, people had high expectations and believed in his capacity and discovering who he is.

SPEAKER: (Inaudible) help each other out.

SPEAKER: (Inaudible)

SPEAKER: We feel that part of the success that is ongoing (inaudible).


SPEAKER: (Inaudible) he can be very independent if he wants to be.

SPEAKER: We've got constant people learning that the disability (inaudible) is opportunities to do what he wants to do. He knows the names of the carers and who he is going out with. And his behaviour has improved dramatically. And he doesn't have these massive meltdowns that he used to have.

SU-HSIEN LEE: I'm going to have to stop it there. It's actually a much longer video. That is just a brief snapshot of Nick before and after.

PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY: We can have it on for afternoon tea. Can we have it on so people can watch it in the break?

SU-HSIEN LEE: Sure.

(Applause)



PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY: Su-Hsien is going to be running a workshop at 3pm when we finish the formal part of the day on how to take your own funding and engage your own support, which is called self-management. And there are lots of advantages to self-management. And also using an intermediary if that is what you want to do. It's all to have some say over what happens.

SU-HSIEN LEE: The key focus at 3pm will be people's legal obligations under self-management.

PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY: We are now going to hear from Chris Iliopoulos, and Chris has won an award from the Australian Human Rights Commission for his Freedom Housing that he is telling us about today and how it came into being.

CHRIS ILIOPOULOS: Thank you. I only have ten minutes but you are welcome to go to the website and get more information on www.freedomhousing.com.au

OK, so let's go through it. The Freedom Housing design involves the conjoining four homes to a care facility, which I call Freedom Key for obvious reasons.

Four houses or apartments may be conjoined. You see the Freedom Key is at the centre and conjoined is the houses in the apartment model.

The four homes look like any other houses on the estate. They are conjoined by the Freedom Key which traverses the easement in internal space. I don't have a pointer but you can see those four houses are accessible through an internal space.

The Freedom Key allows carers to easily and quickly access the home where persons with disability reside under the supervision of family, friends, housemates or independently.

The Freedom Key comprises a physiotherapy pool, a physiotherapy room, common meals area, common lounge and kitchen. It becomes private by locking the other three doors. There is a discreet entrance for the carers so the rest of the household is not disturbed. Privacy is expected.

Freedom Housing is ideal for new housing estates and new high-rise department developments. It may also be used for conjoining houses or apartments.

The George Gray Centre is developing Freedom Housing. Two houses will be owner occupied and the other two will be occupied by George Gray Centre. These will be leased to families who cannot afford to buy them.

The houses are architecturally designed to suit the requirements of the household. A family can build their dream home. They are able to enjoy privacy and have loved ones cared for at home 24/7. The design will suit many families.

Freedom Housing makes it possible for people with disabilities to live in their own house with



family and friends or independently and also get 24/7 care.

They can live in these houses through every stage of their lives - infant, teen, adult, palliative. The other members of the household are able to go about their lives without having to be responsible for the personal care of the person with disability.

They can work, socialise and go away on holidays freely. They can come and go as they do in normal housing. The person with disability may go to family functions or stay at home. Care is available 24/7.

Freedom Housing was started by my late wife Pamela Maree, she had MS for over 30 years. It’s governed by a protocol developed especially for the Freedom Key. Your NDIS care package may be sufficient to pay for this. Google Freedom Key for more details.

Freedom Housing is endorsed by the Department of Health and Human Services. Freedom Housing is currently the only model of care and accommodation for people with disability that complies with all the objects and principles of the NDIS Act 2013. Refer to the comparative analysis on our website.

Freedom Housing is currently the only affordable model in the world that fully complies with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Freedom Housing is the winner of the Australian Human Rights Commission business award. This world-first innovative design radically displaces the demand for respite homes, group accommodation homes, nursing homes, supported accommodation, retirement villages, hospice care and hospital care.

Freedom Housing will take demand from these. It has ushered in an era of non-institutional care. The era of private 24/7 care has arrived.

It caters for disability and old age without alienating the person from their community. We will now hear from McKenzie, a mother of two young boys.

(Video plays)

SPEAKER: I have multiple sclerosis and I have had it for 20 years. (Inaudible)...

But I am first and foremost a mother. Although my husband and I are now separated, we were married for 24 years and (inaudible) it was a wonderful relationship – we were happy, we went overseas, we got to the stage where I wasn't able to walk easily, our relationship started to break down.

My husband and two children moved me into a home that was not suitable for me. Unfortunately, the only place that I could find was a nursing home.

So, I started off in aged care. It was stressful. I was in a nursing home for 10 months and eventually I got placed in the supported accommodation. It was better than a nursing home.



But there is still a limitation. Honestly, I think Freedom Housing will be the way to go because it will be my house, my decision, my rules. My children will be able to live with me.

It will just be easier in that my friends can come over for drinks. They can come to stay. My brothers and sisters can come and stay. (Inaudible) to Australia, is the most important issue is family unity.

Caring for somebody with a disability involves not only physical care, but also emotional and mental stability.

I can still provide the love and emotional support for my children's needs. This is hard... I can still provide the love and emotional support that my children need, the emotional love and support that only I can give.

I feel like I am being punished. I know, through no fault of my own, because services that could keep my family together are not available. I believe that a Freedom Housing house would meet my needs, keeping my children with me, and meeting my physical needs.

Freedom Housing is just that – freedom.

CHRIS ILIOPOULOS: If I can have a couple of minutes? I can answer questions later. I have gone to 11 minutes I think so I have had my allocation.

This is a distillation of my own experiences over three decades. It is the model that I would have wanted when I was 24 and I was informed by a neurologist that my wife had MS and that he couldn't tell me what the progress of that would be.

If I had this I would have known how to cope with what was coming, certainly in a way that would have been more productive and less traumatic for everyone and certainly less expensive.

That is the model and that is where it has come from. Thank you.

(Applause)

PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY: I think that was a very interesting model for a family trying to stay together when deterioration is happening. So, thank you very much, Chris.

Now a presentation to do with mental health. If I could ask Glenn Pruett to come up and to speak about your project around the Oxford Houses.

GLENN PRUETT: The model for Oxford Houses is not specific to mental health, it is about providing a space for drug- and alcohol-free self-managed accommodation.



It's for people in recovery. The houses are operated in partnership between MIND and Self-help Addiction Recovery Resource Centre, which is SHARC for short.

MIND provides (inaudible) with SHARC providing (inaudible) on an individual basis.

MIND is a leading provider of mental health support and has residential support through a range of models in partnership with health services and funded by the Department of Health and Human Services.

Both adult and youth residential services. The Oxford House is a residential model which provides individuals with an opportunity to live with others who are committed to recovery, to develop accountability and the building of a worthwhile life.

Residents must commit to remaining abstinent from alcohols and other drugs, working on a treatment plan and with a minimum of 30 consecutive days of sobriety or clean time.

The difference with the model is the houses themselves are managed, while residents are supported into the property through the work with SHARC, who do the screening and assessment initially. The houses are run by democratic committee with a chapter executive and regular meetings to address concerns that may come up for individual houses.

The houses are providing the opportunity for men and women seeking recovery from alcohol addiction or addiction to other drugs to establish a life free of those addiction problems.

The idea for the houses came from Maryland in the United States, they have been going since 1975. They started with one house there and there are now 1,000 houses in the US which speaks to the effectiveness of that model.

The difference in the Australian model is that we have been helped by SHARC whereas in the US there is no attached support.

In Melbourne, we started in about 1997. MIND now operates about nine houses across Melbourne, seven for men and two for women. Each house has about four to six residents. The houses operate under the Residential Tenancy Act provisions, which give residence rights and responsibilities in terms of addressing any challenges around that tenancy.

As I mentioned, the main features of the Oxford Houses model is that houses are set up for people to recover. Residents are responsible for the day-to-day management of their house, including who lives in the house and shares that space with them.

Once a person has been through the screening process with SHARC, they present to the house, meet the residents and undertake suitability for that particular environment.

The core philosophy of an Oxford House is to provide secure, supportive and affordable homes in which residents can build the foundations of a lasting recovery.

That philosophy is reflected in the purpose statement, which all adhere to. Personal responsibility for managing individual recovery, contributing to the recovery of others,



commitment to recovery that embraces abstinence from alcohol and other drugs and volunteering role model input supported by appropriate resources. Again provided by MIND and SHARC.

To be eligible for residency at an Oxford House, you must be fully committed to continuing abstinence in recovery from alcohol or other drugs, be currently working on some form of recovery, have a plan in place, have a minimum 30 days clean and be prepared to participate in the life of the house and abide by the house rules.

What that means is that any person on drug replacement therapy such as methadone or buprenorphine are not eligible for the service because we need them to be abstinent.

As I said in the first instance, there is a screening with SHARC and then they go to the house to meet the residents and assess for suitability.

The guiding principles of the house are listed here. The primary purpose again is to provide a safe and affordable place for those who want to stop drinking or stop using other substances and stay stopped.

Importantly, there are no prescribed limits on duration of residency. The house is run as a democracy. Residents can be elected to positions of responsibility within the house's executive and serve for periods no longer than three consecutive months in any one office.

No one is asked to leave without just cause, however, residents can be asked to leave if they breach the abstinence rule in the house.

Oxford House has no particular requirements regarding recovery plans and methods, but residents find that active placement in a 12-step program offers them a good foundation for establishing recovery.

Responsibilities – self-management is a driving principle.

Financially self-supporting – Oxford House is financially self-supporting. Each resident is responsible for their own rent. Each house has a bank account into which funds are pooled for shared consumables and replacements as required.

Continued contact – once residents leave, they are encouraged to stay in contact, offering support and setting an example for current residents.

House rules are listed here. One of the interesting things about the houses is that none of the houses have locks on any of the bedroom doors, which speaks to the need for established mutual trust and confidence in residents. I guess that speaks to the connectivity that needs to happen through the chapter meetings and the executive responding to concerns in the house.

Residents are required to remain drug and alcohol free at all times, both in the house and when



away.

OK, I've got one minute. I was just going to give a quick case study. This is written by someone who is currently 26, started drinking at 14, got into marijuana at 16 and a range of other substances beyond that.

They lost connection with their family at 18, were kicked out for too many hassles, lots of broken relationships, lots of detoxes, ended up dead broke, crazy and suicidal. We helped that person into NA and AA and they were accepted into an Oxford House. But no drinking, no drugs, pay your own way, work on a recovery program.

They managed to get a job, pay the bills and they were houseproud because it was their home. They help each other out, no outside pressure, but help from people inside and from SHARC. Because they hadn't really had a home or belonged anywhere, they stayed 10 months and then moved on to set up a new house elsewhere.

As I said, has a job, no longer drinking or consuming illicit substances, has their driver’s licence back and continues to stay in touch with the Oxford House. So, a very successful story.

The final statement here is, "I reckon Oxford House was a big turning point for me and I'm pretty grateful," so that's an example of a good story. Thank you.

(Applause)

PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY: Thank you very much. I was just thinking about the model of a group home leading to a self-management style group home and then to the next stage. So, it is interesting in terms of the transitional path for young adults.

Di, we are looking forward to hearing from the Summer Foundation for our last presentation today. Thank you very much.

DI WINKLER: Thanks, Rhonda. I'm going to talk to you about our housing projects.

Our organisation focuses specifically on the issue of young people. That is our target group for the housing project, but we also know our housing projects are relevant for a broader group of people with disability.

Sometime back, it was established in 2006, and the mission is to resolve the issue of young people in nursing homes.

We provide a research base, we support people to tell their stories, we have pilots to do action research and learn by doing, and we capture knowledge and share that with other organisations.

Our first housing project was in Abbotsford here in Melbourne, established in collaboration with the Transport Commission and Common Equity Housing Ltd. There were six one-bedroom



apartments. It was in a regular development, in a mix of affordable and private housing.

The Summer Foundation owns two apartments and the Transport Commission owns four apartments. It's based where disability care workers are and there is 24-hour support. There is smart phone technology so people can be as independent as possible in their own units.

We are not the support provider. We are more like a broker that brought the project together. We appointed a disability provider, and Common Equity continue to manage the houses.

I'm just going to show you a story put together by Billy, which gives you an idea of what it is like to live in one of these apartments.

(Video plays)

SPEAKER: In my early 20s, I was a street artist. I was beaten senseless on the street. It was the opening night of what turned out to be my only art exhibition.

When I woke up from a coma, I asked for a glass of water. That was the last time I used my voice clearly. That was 20 years ago.

These days, I can eat and I do talk when people ignore me or don't give me time to type, but most people don't understand me always.

From hospital I went into a nursing home. It's difficult to describe that time. I can tell you I tried to end my life. From the nursing home, I went to stay with family. When that broke down, a friend provided the answer. I appreciated all she gave me but the time came to move on. After nine years, she must have had enough of me living with her.

For most people, it is easy to make the decision to move house. For me, it was not easy at all. First, I had to find a suitable house.

Before I was brutally assaulted, I thought my future would be painting and drawing. All I wanted was to be creative. For many years, I missed my creative life. When I thought too much about what I lost, I drank too much tequila.

My dream was to set up as an artist, having space for freedom, freedom for thinking, freedom with music and freedom with my art. Just because I am in a wheelchair and I don't use my voice does not mean I cannot live on my own. I just need a bit of help with my morning and evening routine. The rest I can manage on my own.

Now that I have moved into my own place, I am over the moon, there is no return. I have become an art hermit. I used to live on art alone, but now I am doing it again for the first time in 20 years. I am finally free, free to live the way I wish. This is my home and that is very different to living in someone else's home.

From my wheelchair, I can let visitors into the front gate of the building. I can turn the lights on and off, control the air-conditioner using the iPad, and also call for help from the staff downstairs



using the iPad. This technology is fantastic.

Moving was a big adjustment for me. If I could give anyone else moving out on their own some advice, I would say be brave. I think places like mine are rad. Just because we have a brain injury doesn't mean we can't manage to be active and live our lives once again.

Having a good life also means a home of my own. Life only comes once. I believe you should live it.

DI WINKLER: I guess we are wanting to increase the support available. This model is not for everyone, it is a group who have the capacity to live independently but they need 24-hour support but they have the cognitive and physical ability to let someone know if they need help.

The purpose of our projects, we want to show that if you provide good quality housing that is well located and incorporates smart technology and the model of support is independent, you will improve people's quality of life and decrease their dependence on paid supports and ensure the future of the NDIS.

Our second project is in Newcastle in NSW. Just last night I got some new photos of the complete apartments. This is a development with over 100 units and we have 10 apartments for people with disability and a one-bedroom apartment where the support workers will work from.

This actually has some two- and three-bedroom apartments. Before, we were talking about family unity. Some of the potential tenants for these apartments will enable somebody with a disability to live with their partner or their child and still have access to 24-hour support.

We haven't finalised the tenants for those apartments but people start to move in over the next six months. I guess one of the things we are excited about is people living in a community like everybody else and having the potential to live with a partner and their family.

I guess the other thing why we do what we are doing is we want to share knowledge. We get the knowledge and produce reports and videos so other people can learn from what we are doing. I guess the measure of success is that people will copy us.

With the Hunter apartments, there will be two display apartments open for the first six months and tours will start in late June. We want builders and architects and community housing providers to walk through and learn from what we have done and copy what we are doing.

What next? Capturing the design and sharing that with people. Our next projects will be strategic, we will continue to learn by doing or have the potential for scale. We would be partnering with developers or community housing providers where there is the opportunity for replication and scale.

What is critical is the evaluation framework – we are measuring the outcomes of tenants and we are doing post-occupancy evaluation to continually improve the design and look at how the technologies are reducing people’s paid supports.



That is all. Thank you.

(Applause)

PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY: Now, finally, it is your turn. You have been patient looking at the showcasing and we will come back to some of those points at the end. I am now going to invite Esther Kerr-Smith from the Agency to come up and facilitate the question-and-answer session.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: It is getting to the end of the day, but I think this will be a good session so I appreciate you have all stayed in your seats for this one. My name is Esther Kerr-Smith and I'm the General Manager for Market and Providers at the NDIA. I thank the presenters. You have given us food for thought and your commitment over time is evident in the presentations.

I would add to that my gratitude that you have taken the time to come today and constructively listen and engage. We know delivering the NDIS is a shared endeavour, the Agency cannot do it by itself, providers cannot do it by themselves, participants can't do it by themselves.

It is only through an event like this that we can get to the lofty vision that is the NDIS and all things about the NDIS.

We are privileged today to have a panel of experts in the spirit of the NDIA's agenda to answer questions we may have on housing and disability housing in particular. I would like to acknowledge that the Agency works closely with our State government colleagues, who are helping to build the infrastructure around the NDIS.

Arthur Rogers who is the Deputy Secretary working with the Cabinet in Victoria is here today and the ideas that are ongoing in this space is a reflection of collaboration in that area.

On the panel, we are lucky, we have Alan Blackwood. Rhonda, you know. Alan Blackwood is a member of the NDIS's Independent Housing Working Group.

Alan has more than 25 years’ experience in disability and health services, and his family have lived experience with disability. Alan is currently the policy director at Young People in Nursing Homes National Alliance. I see him around the country trying to develop better support options for people with disability.

He has worked in a range of areas and is committed to innovative precinct development that includes inclusive options and built-in options for community connections. I have a question for you in a minute, Alan.

We also have Geoff Barber, he works for Julia Farr Housing Association and Chair of the South Australian housing community peak body. And finally, but not least, our CEO, David Bowen, whom many of you would have heard speak before, and some would say a relentless driver of all the NDIA's endeavours of setting up the Scheme.

Please welcome our panel.



(Applause)

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: The privilege of having the microphone is you get to kick off the questions while you think about your questions. Hopefully in answering these questions, you will get a sense of some of the areas that our panel is focused on.

My first question is for you, Geoff. You know that the work in special accessibility in accommodation is dependent on participants choosing where they live in the short, medium and long term. Providers will not get paid in the long term unless people choose to live in the properties they build and provide.

What are your thoughts about what providers should be thinking about now as they get ready for the NDIS, in terms of making those choices.

GEOFF BARBER: If we start with the demand side of the equation, for me it is important to consider that people living with disabilities currently reside where they do today because of a historic framework of disability support – broken and underfunded.

I think that is a helpful starting place – where people with disability want to live in the future. Perhaps it is looking back and reflecting on where people have been required to live or invited to live – that won't give us the true picture.

It is about building people's capacity, what is possible. I think the NDIS’s function is important to start that journey with models of housing opportunity, opportunities that people haven't yet thought of and plenty of opportunities out there that will have greater impact once it scales up.

The message for people with disability and their families today is to be thinking of planning, not about the physical built forms, but what you want to create around you and the built form follows that.

The second message is for providers of housing – just like high-end homes that someone might build near the beach, if you were to build homes for rich people, you have to know your market. You cannot expect the government to tell you what that market will look like, you need to do your own research and evaluation and understand the needs of people who will purchase those dwellings or live in them.

With development comes risk. Developers understand that. It is a new market opportunity where government will no longer dictate what housing construction people need to live in and if you are going to build and develop houses, you need to know what you are doing.

You need to choose models that people are prepared to live in or you are taking a big financial risk.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Alan, I have seen you talking about accessible and affordable housing far more broadly than



disability-accessible housing, and challenging the NDIA to think about what opportunities the NDIS has for broader housing needs and achieving independence of the Scheme which relies on much more than the narrow application of specialist disability policy.

What should we be doing about all the other affordability challenges of things like universal design and those things that you have put thought into?

ALAN BLACKWOOD: Under the NDIS, when people have support that can go anywhere, people's housing choices should be expanded as well. Because we have had a history of disability housing being run by disability services and government programs, there hasn't been a lot of connection with the rest of the housing world.

Disability is another group. It is not front of mind in the housing industry. We are seeing now in the glut of apartments being put up around the inner CBD of most Australian cities, tens of thousands just around the stadium, and none of them are accessible.

They are not built to universal design standards because it is not something that people have thought important. The debate has been about affordability, supply, how many people you can squeeze onto a block, but there is a lot of housing that is still not accessible.

People with disability cannot even visit some apartments that are built. We are trying to get developers and the housing industry to voluntarily build more accessible houses and have failed miserably.

If we are to expand people's choices, we need to make sure that accessibility is built into the Building Code. People don't necessarily want to live in disability housing facilities – they want to live where they want to live, where they have connections.

I was taken with that story that Steve told about his son being airdropped into some place 70 km away from his connections. That is not housing, that is containment.

This is what we have had and we are now coming out of that centralised control and moving into an era where people can think up their own styles of housing or where they want to live. There are a whole lot of things that people can now do that are not constrained by government systems.

At the bottom of it is we need the housing to be accessible.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: I agree. Now, open to the floor. Can you make yourself known in whatever way you wish to if you have a question? We have got some roving microphones. Keep your question fairly concise and let me know which member of the panel you would like to address it to.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My name is Sue. I don't know who to address.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH:



You can have all three.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: I'm wondering how participants will be assessed for the level of funding they receive for housing from the NDIA. This is a very central part of planning for the future.

DAVID BOWEN: The NDIA has already released a draft pricing framework for disability accommodation. That framework is in accordance with the direction that we have from the Disability Reform Council that provides that this support is for people who have a housing need associated with a disability directly and not indirectly.

By ‘directly’, I mean their disability puts them in circumstances where they may otherwise need accessible or affordable housing.

It is based on work undertaken by the Productivity Commission, who estimated there are about 30,000 people in that category, of which the majority at the moment are in supported accommodation, aged care facilities across the country.

The Agency is working on the details of the rule that needs to support that pricing framework to assess that housing need. It's important to recognise that support for housing isn't independent from the person's support package. Housing is a contributor to good support and to good outcomes, and we take that into account when constructing the whole package.

A lot of work that we still have to do is around looking at innovation in the combination of housing and support to achieve good outcomes. But you can tell from just the numbers, 30,000 out of 460,000, we are talking about people with profound disability and significant support needs.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Thanks, David. Can we get the microphone down the front?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My name is Peter. I would like clarification firstly on the facts on the housing needs of people with disability. And the mandate of separation between the housing provider and the service provider.

DAVID BOWEN: I will have to jump in on that again. The Agency did some work very early in the trials about what would be the broader housing support needs for people with disability.

My recollection was that we identified that in the vicinity of 130,000 people who would be participants in our Scheme and would need some form of housing support.

Over and above that, we do know that people with disability of a level to be a participant in our Scheme are often unemployed, they are often on the Disability Support Pension. In fact, between 80-95% in the Scheme are on the DSP, which is why employment is one of the key outcomes, along with housing.



A consequence of that is that housing options are significantly limited for people in that circumstance. This is something we work with the state and territory governments on, who ensure that affordable community housing is available for participants in the Scheme, who don't need specialist support but need housing support.

The second part of your question was going to what was identified in the pricing framework as a desirable position to separate the housing from the support that may be provided to people in that house. And we recognise that might take time to get there.

But it was to reinforce that the housing supports one or more people living together in situations in which they have tenants' rights individually or collectively and can assert that against the housing provider, independent of their support needs and the relationship they would have with the support provider.

That is a critical principle. We recognise that is not a separation that commonly occurs at the moment. Sometimes it does but a lot of the time it does not. So, we have indicated that, going forward, the starting point is to recognise separate funding arrangements, separate contract arrangements, separate rights for the person, but without requiring separation of legal identity of the housing provider from the support provider.

That is certainly the longer term aim.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Does anyone have a question for Alan or Geoff? You can skip straight to the front of the queue.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: I've got a quick question about the NDIA. I am speaking as a young person living in a nursing home due to illness. I just wanted to know the specific timeline as to the full implementation of the NDIS.

At the moment, with the imminent rise in young people living in nursing homes or in inappropriate accommodation, without that, it will continue to rise. So, I want to know what the timelines are, if there are any set out yet, and also what is being planned in the interim, in the lead up, to counteract the continuing rise.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: That is definitely a question for David but it's a good question, so we will keep it. How do you go with that David?

DAVID BOWEN: Accommodation support, it is attached to a person in our Scheme, it starts on 1 July in those areas where the Full Scheme starts or where it is already in operation in current trial sites. That is in accordance with the bilateral agreements that have been entered into between the Commonwealth and state and territory governments. WA is not quite fully there yet.

For you, it would be a matter of enquiring as to when the NDIS is coming to your area. And within those schedules, it's likely that you are entering the Scheme as a participant, and at that



point the planning discussion will include consideration of the need for SDA.

We recognise there is a lag between identifying that move and having new houses built. We will be providing, as we have others, information to the market upon the expected number of people by area and the nature of their support needs to try and stimulate providers to be thinking about moving in advance of the NDIS arriving, based on some of our predictions as to what the market might look like.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Thank you. Where else are we? Over here, yes?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My name is Jess and I have a question about the mainstream housing stock. It is a two-part question but I will be as quick as I can.

What do you do about the privacy equation, where banks will not give loans to (inaudible) people based on their level of access and regular income?

I work three days a week and I anticipate I will be able to do that for the rest of my life but it's not enough income to qualify.

The second part, which is related to what we do about the mainstream rental market, where it clearly says you are not allowed to make amendments to a property where the property cannot be returned to its original condition.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Good question. I'm going to throw that to Alan in the first instance. You don't have to know all the answers.

ALAN BLACKWOOD: The second question, the financing question, that issue around having to make – they call it 'making good' a property – so you think after going through the process of making the house accessible, you are making it bad.

With the NDIS coming along, providing those sorts of modifications, I don't know how we work with that. There is a cultural growth period we have to go through, where those things are seen as adding value, rather than taking value away.

It limits the number of accessible properties. There is a role for the NDIS, as well as the advocacy sector, to engage with the property sector, the landlords, and talk up those issues.

Because you would think, if there is a source of funding for home modifications, there are people wanting to move out into rental properties, then there should be an increase in demand for those properties. It may take a while to kick in, but I think we have got a bit of work to do to make it something desirable, rather than something freaky.

GEOFF BARBER: Finance, incredibly complex question. It speaks to some of the barriers that are in place for



some of the people with disability in our community, of which one is accessing finance.

Having had conversations at a range of events around disability housing, my view is that the appetite and interest in disability housing is increasing but it is increasing at the wholesale level so it's a very large level in terms of scale.

What does that mean for an individual with disability that wants to buy or purchase their home? The answer, at least in the short term, is not going to be walking through the front door of a bank. It will be looking at alternative sources of finance and where it might be available.

I would expect the market to develop in this area through providers and through finance broking organisations that will put together wholesale deals. That will then enable those of us living with disability to access a home either through a housing association or a co-op, or an institute that is brokering housing solutions for people living with disability, in a way that recognises that, often, income streams are limited.

The revenue streams around specialised housing can be improved through NDIS funding in relation to housing and recognising that shared equity or forms of joint ownership in the early stages can be really helpful to getting over some of those barriers.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: In my conversations, the advent of the NDIS has awoken the interest of a lot of mainstream businesses, not least retail banks who are starting to think, “Have I misunderstood an opportunity of engaging with a whole new class of customers here if I can understand their needs, if I can understand the risks, if those risks are reduced by the NDIS to some extent?” I hear and see that mobilisation happening already.

How quickly they get there and how comfortable they get is still to be seen. But there is movement coming from the NDIS, it is really evident.

GEOFF BARBER: There are also funding opportunities set up by government that provide funding for affordable and low-cost housing. Specifically that is the product. They understand that market perhaps better than the retail banks.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: We probably have time for two more questions. Bonus points if the question goes across the panel.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: If the government changes Building Code regulations tomorrow, how much lag will there be in capacity development in the industry? How long before you have enough capacity in the affordable accommodation market to enable true choice?

ALAN BLACKWOOD: There is a lot of design work that has to go in. Talking to a developer who's building across the road, I think the developer only builds to Code. They see it as charity – if they go beyond Code, who will pay?



If we go beyond Code, design will follow. Developers say it reduces their floor space so banks will not finance their project. If you change the regulations, all of that will fall into place.

I agree with you, there will be a lag. The other thing a change in regulations won't do is anything about the affordability problem. That is a separate issue. It is across the Australian community, not just for people with disability.

With the push of the NDIS to provide people with supports, you would hope that people will get into employment and with employment, an increase in housing choice.

I think the affordability question is a complex one.

DAVID BOWEN: I think the necessity of changing codes and pushing universal design is absolutely critical, but making this conversation about accessible communities and accessible individual houses.

I'm always reminded of what Stella Young said, "Great that I have an accessible house, crap that I can't visit my neighbour."

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: I got my timing wrong, we have time for a few more questions so make yourself known.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: Hello, my name is Kush. I am in the process of finding a house for my wife who needs 24/7 care. I want to include climate control and all these things to make her life easy. I would like to know what I can expect from NDIS?

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: It depends on whether your wife is an NDIS participant and what seems reasonable and necessary for her to live as ordinary a life as she can. The Agency’s assistive technology strategy is clear, that technology is hugely important for building independence and reducing the need for one-on-one and constant care.

We are very supportive in the process of thinking about what an appropriate plan and outcomes and goals and objectives are for someone in assistive technology. That conversation will happen when your wife, if she is a participant, enters the Scheme and has her first planning sessions about her plan.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My daughter has an intellectual disability and she currently lives in a DHS house. I must say, it is an excellently run facility. My concern is the government currently puts money into STA housing, when they move to a non-government provider will it cost more than that subsidy provided by the government?

Will the individual NDIS plans cover the total cost of the non-government provider or will the quality and service that we currently experience be reduced?



GEOFF BARBER: I don't know the exact details but to give you an example, the organisation I work for owns and manages and provides a range of good affordable accessible houses for people with disability as a not-for-profit, charitable organisation.

That is the idea, to serve the disability community in that context. There is a range of advantages for charitable organisations to be available to do that and it makes sense from an economic and values alignment to think about considering that.

From a housing perspective, the notion of increased cost, I would need to understand where they are coming from. In a situation where housing and support are bundled together and it is a total package, where the subsidies are on the service provision side and where it relates to housing.

Was that the situation? That housing and services are bundled together?

DAVID BOWEN: I might add to that by reference to the experience in the trial site in Barwon. Down there there are about 50 houses in the broader area and, as it happens, about half are government owned and run and the other half are run by non-government organisations.

In each case it is about ensuring that the individual package of support covers their support needs, covers funding for capacity building and meaningful community participation and any equipment that person may need. The outcome being that the person gets the same level of support, independent of where it is provided.

As it happens, it is not correct to say that non-government housing is more expensive, in fact it is the other way round, it is to do with the labour costs of public servants compared to community workers.

The Agency does not take into account those considerations – we take into account what are appropriate, reasonable and necessary supports for the individual in the circumstances we find them.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: The quality of service provider is ridiculous compared to what they need and that is the experience of many people.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: I will pass to Alan to think about that because quality is a vexed issue.

ALAN BLACKWOOD: With the individualisation of funding, what will be provided is that format that people want. We are hoping and expecting that people – I don't know what circumstances your daughter is in – but when people have the opportunity to either change the service they are getting or move to a better type of housing than the one they have been in, they can take their package and go elsewhere and the NDIS will tailor that support to the new environment.



QUESTION FROM FLOOR: A lot of the examples today will not be possible for a lot of people, particularly when they have older parents, and there won't be anyone left to care for them.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Let us accept and we all understand that David's explanation of the experience in trial is absolutely accurate. The conversation is about what that person needs with weighting put on their current circumstances. If they like their current housing then the reasonable and necessary response is to ensure they can continue to access those.

We can't pass comment on Victorian government staff and other decisions but the experience of the participants in the trial is there is not a ‘state is good, non-state is bad’ situation. How people are thinking about their life is closely connected to good care workers if they have built relationships with them, and not having unnecessary turnover.

That is something that is respected and supported in the Agency. If you want to ask more questions about this there are about 50 staff here. Have we got another... My colleague came down here and is happy to find you personally afterwards. Yes?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: Hi, my name is Joanne. When we are talking about housing generally, talking about people over 18 who are trying to get out living on their own, but we have in our company, we have over-18s and under-18s, currently participants under the NDIS, but when it came to their housing, they were sent back to Family Services.

My question is – where is the division between FACS and NDIS funding for that in regard to housing, whether it be short term or long term or whether it be voluntary or involuntary (inaudible)? There has to be a decision where NDIS takes responsibility for stable accommodation or is it Family Services?

We thought from what we read that it was going to NDIS. But we have two participants that have already been accepted and had a plan written up...

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: I will pass that to David so that he might clarify. I think what you're saying is you had two clients, one is a child under 18 and one is an adult, and the conversation with the NDIA went differently depending on their age...

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: They were just told housing was not covered through NDIS and their case managers referred back to Family Services and Family Services have accepted responsibility for the funding.

DAVID BOWEN: I might come and have a chat to you afterwards. I am not getting the gist of that question. The issue is that a child under 18 who is under a care order of state, is that what we are talking about?

ESTHER KERR-SMITH:



Can you come and find us afterwards?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: There have been a lot of comments regarding housing for people who have some degree of difficulty with moving themselves. We are still concerned about people who don't have any skills whatever and require 24/7 support living in private, shared rental. What about that class of people?

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: That might be one for the whole panel.

GEOFF BARBER: For me, that is the challenge as a community, to no longer think about housing as government provided, community provided or private provided, but to think about the housing market as a whole market and recognise that people will have a choice on housing opportunities.

Those needs will be about geographic needs, access needs and affordability needs and thinking about those opportunities.

While it is still early days and there needs to be more water under the bridge, my expectation is that the market will respond from a housing provision perspective in terms of where it will fall as there is greater clarity about the funding subsidy that goes into specialist housing and purpose-built housing.

That said, people living with disability sit in the context of an affordable housing crisis in Australia, where there are significant issues for all members of our community who need to access affordable housing, regardless of whether they live with disability or not. And that is a broader systemic policy and community issue that we need to respond to beyond the NDIS.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Anyone else? No? Yep. At the back.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: Brian Wetherill. I'm not sure whether the situation for many aged carers with their sons and daughters living at home has been addressed. I haven't heard anything regarding that mostly through the session.

People that have independence or some capability of independent living, yes, but those still living at home with parents in superannuation, in the retirement phase, haven't been included in the numbers. It doesn't seem to be clear to me that they were.

DAVID BOWEN: The answer is, yes, they are. If the adult living at home with their parent has a very high support need, then they will qualify for specialist housing support as part of a larger package.

The numbers that I gave you had estimates around current population in supported accommodation in residential aged care in large residential centres. And then a population of people who were currently living at home in the circumstance you describe of living with aged



parents.

In that circumstance, housing is part of the overall package of support. Housing should not be seen as the destination for that person. It is how that housing contributes to that person's life. And hopefully, building capacity and building independent skills.

The tendency to say – I understand, we spend a lot of time talking to parents in your circumstances – for you in ensuring security for your child to have care for the rest of their life, after you are gone, we understand that.

Our coordinators and planners will have those conversations with you. But we don't think it is just about wrapping the person up. Already in the trial, through having the investment approach, we are investing in people, building capacity and the opportunity for people to self-manage parts of their lives, to have more control over their lives than has ever occurred before. And that is certainly the way in which we see the start of that journey.

GEOFF BARBER: From my experiences over the years, there are two things that get in the way of ageing parents finding great accommodation or suitable housing solutions for their loved ones. First of all, securing appropriate current support dollars. The NDIS significantly strengthens tailored packages of support for individuals.

The second is about looking at and thinking about suitable housing opportunities in terms of built form. Both of those are important. The work that has been done to date in relation to the NDIS addresses the first issue in terms of recurrent support dollars – what is fair and reasonable.

What is coming is the second conversation about housing needs and what is appropriate for that.

As in some of the earlier conversations, for me, it's actually inviting families to think about what housing should look like. The old system was that we were grateful for what government would give us. The example that was shown – I think Glenn Keys showed a housing opportunity 70 km away – is not unique to the ACT or Sydney. It happens all around the country.

It's about thinking what should that housing solution look like, and planning towards that for your son or daughter while there is time to do that.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Over there?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My name is Melinda Mauby, I'm from the Northern Territory, and I would like to start off by saying we signed the bilateral agreement before WA.

My point is about the availability of capital. If you happen to be in the fortunate position of having a developer who was going to offer land, I guess what would be the first starting point in terms of looking for capital to build and to look at who they would talk to in terms of the best model to



build that housing, that's my question.

DAVID BOWEN: The answer to that is, talk to the Agency. We would hope, through information we have gathered, that we will be able to predict housing support needs in particular areas.

At the end of the day, the funding will be found and a housing provider will build suitable accommodation if people are there to use it.

That will work for 90% of the country, but it won't work everywhere because there are places where there is insufficient demand to ensure that a housing provider will take that risk. So, a piece of the work that the Agency has foreshadowed that we will do is what other arrangements may we look at to take some of that risk on around vacancy management and around the term of the relationship to in short supply in remote areas and sometimes it is in rural areas where it otherwise won't be built.

But the starting point is looking at the people there, ask them what they want and then build housing in accordance with that demand.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My question is more about the fact that we know a developer who is offering land. We don't want him lost in red tape. We would like to capture him. We are fortunate to have someone saying they are willing to provide.

Is there any capital that the NDIS provides, or would they be involved in the negotiations? Because we recognise there are lots of plans and all sorts of things that will happen and we don't want to lose him, I guess.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: It's great if someone is offering land, even better if it is good land in the middle of a community, close to amenities. The draft pricing the NDIS published explicitly provided for return on land and capital build costs.

To the extent you are confident people will choose to live in what you build, the funding that will come through those people we are confident will pay for the annual costs of capital and maintenance related to those buildings.

Have a look at the draft pricing that is put out there. If you have the land kicked in for free, you’ve got a running start. In terms of where to build, what to build, I think the Agency would provide – as soon as we have plans and we build our relationships with participants and they are expressing their accommodation needs – we will be pushing that information out as fast and accurately as we can so the market can make informed decisions.

But Geoff's point that he opened with is equally valid, in that it is also up to providers to build the relationships with disability communities and hear from them what they want and co-design the solution.

Down the front.



QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My name is Anne. I am the mother of a young man who has autism. I have read the piles and piles of information that the NDIS put out. I cannot find anything – please correct me if I'm wrong – not a lot of work has been put into assisted living for one group of people with disability, and that is people with behavioural concerns.

(Inaudible) But what has been done, and if there hasn't been a lot done, which I suspect there hasn't been, is there scope to address that?

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: We are keeping our questions to housing-related topics today but we feel strongly about that. There has been work done and there is more work to be done. David?

DAVID BOWEN: We think there is a huge amount of work to do with people with significant behavioural support needs in that the current system of segregation and isolation exacerbates all of those behavioural problems, instead of investing in housing and support that help the person control and manage their behaviour and provide a better environment to build their skills.

Early days on this, but if you start with the mindset that there is a whole lot of people for whom the only solution is to isolate and lock them away, then we will just be perpetuating all the ills of the current system.

So, we start with the view that intervention, additional funding can be put in there, that there are behavioural interventions that in combination with better housing and supports can lead to a better life for the person.

We have done a little bit of that. We haven't done a lot, but we have done a little bit in Barwon and Newcastle and sometimes with quite stunning results, I might add.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: Over here?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: My name is Jeffrey. I wonder if you could answer a question, if necessary changes or modifications are needed, where participants end up in a situation where they have a progressive condition and therefore they need to remain living in their existing homes but have modifications made over and above that which can be made under the existing guidelines...

I understand that something more than what can be fitted under the existing guidelines is (inaudible).

DAVID BOWEN: That's not correct. We do cater for high modifications. It is separate to the question of disability accommodation. We have guidelines for that. We expect standard modifications around facilitating access to the property, ease of movement within the property, modifying kitchens and bathrooms, but it does also include putting additional rooms on, where the person with the



disability or condition needs extra storage space for things in their life.

Housing modifications are not limited to under the roofline. They have to be approved by the relevant local council.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: It would be good if you could let the people in Geelong know that, please. Our experience has been quite contrary.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: Hi, my name is Linda. I'm speaking as a family member today. Thank you very much for this opportunity today.

This is a basic question but it has not been answered so far. Who holds the specialist information for families as they come into the NDIS? Is it the Local Area Coordinator? Is it the NDIS planner? Are they aware of housing opportunities in the area?

In July, how are we as a family member to drill down into information such as providers, where there is a house there, there are two over there, there is a flat over there, how do we achieve this specialist knowledge and/or work with the planners and Local Area Coordinators to understand our own area? Especially if we are coming into this and previous accommodation has been an SRS.

DAVID BOWEN: I can only hope we have a problem that there is a modicum of housing to choose from. We start funding from July 1, and the starting point is for Specialist Disability Accommodation, somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 shortages to fill. That's without taking into account the people already accommodated in really appalling substandard housing which is not refurbished, hopefully replaced and renewed with people exercising wider choices.

The starting point is a conversation with Local Area Coordinators in the north-east Melbourne area around about what are the support needs, but we do need to take that information into account and start talking to the housing providers and the financiers to get an appropriate response in place. At the moment there is a lot of vacant accommodation suitable (inaudible) remote.

SPEAKER: With individualised funding comes the risk of people becoming isolated. There is a need to develop some of the conversations around the Scheme of peers, so people talking to other families, because through their collective knowledge will come ideas for new services, training and information about what is a good service, where there is a vacancy…

People need to be plugged into other networks, rather than just relying on the Scheme. This is a system we are moving away from, where everybody puts their name on a waiting list and hope they come out at the other end. With the NDIS there will be a lot more freedom to create other options and follow lives that people want to live. So it's something the NDIS is starting to develop, those peer networks, building people's capacity to find the information they need. Not only for housing, but for other things where people are trying to create a life - you really use



other people as a reference point.

Maybe the local government has a role in that. Maybe the Victorian government has other ways of bringing people together but it is also an essential component to the scheme.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: I do agree, but I acknowledge it is a bit of a black box at the moment. There is a good central repository of information about places, events, houses. (inaudible) people to provide us with information about SDA, so we have more information about where is the accommodation, who is in it, and whether there is availability, and we are very committed to making our staff in the region aware of that, to make them facilitators and conduits.

So, don't feel like you are missing the link to the magic website that has all of this, and you are the only one who doesn't know it. As Alan says, we are trying hard to build it, and we see ourselves as an ecosystem in that. One more question.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: I too have a daughter with an intellectual disability. All the answers to questions today do have an emphasis on (inaudible) wide corridors, people dealing with banks and real estate agents. There is no way my daughter will be able to deal with these people. It's basically keeping an eye on things and making good decisions now and then.

David talked this morning about the need for accommodation. When we are in our 60s, 70s, 80s or whenever we drop dead, from what I gather from this afternoon's presentations, we have to get together with families and do what (inaudible) did to do our own set up?

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: David?

DAVID BOWEN: I may have given the impression housing was only around physical disability. But the vast majority, 70%, have intellectual disability or autism, and people in those circumstances can have (inaudible) which includes disability housing.

The starting point of the Scheme is to find a solution, a support package, that suits your daughter's circumstances and maximises opportunities and that connects with other people as much as possible, and that is built upon strong family support.

Housing may or may not have a part to play in that, certainly it will at one point, but whether that is providing specialist housing through the NDIS, or whether it is connecting into community housing, is very much dependent upon individual circumstances and capacity, not just current capacity but taking into account additional funding available through the Scheme to build individual capacity to self-manage, to live independently.

One of the great things about the NDIS, those questions are hard to answer, because there is not a one size fits all solution. I can't say here is something exactly suitable for your daughter’s circumstances - it's about having conversations with our coordinators, planners, and getting the appropriate, reasonable and necessary package to meet your daughter's immediate and future



needs.

ESTHER KERR-SMITH: I'm going to wrap it up now. I would like to thank all of our panel members, you have given us a lot to think about. I am recapping the things that have stuck in my mind. One from Alan, we need to think about accessible communities, not just accessible housing, so people can visit their neighbours readily.

From Geoff, providers under the NDIS are not guaranteed business and if people choose to live in the houses they are providing, they are therefore very well served to invest time in trying to understand preferences and needs, and what people with disabilities and their customers value.

From David, no one size fits all.

So please join me in thanking the panel.

(Applause)

SPEAKER: I'm trying to persuade David to make a few comments, because he's the CEO. Come on, David,

DAVID BOWEN: If I could just thank everyone for their attendance. We had one of these showcases in Sydney and sold out the event, and when talking about coming to Melbourne, some asked whether we think we will get 500? I said, no problem, we will get 1,000 because housing is a big topic. We have done that, so thank you for coming and sharing your interest.

It is very exciting, this policy is being finalised, and we are starting to enter Full Scheme. For those of you in the early part of Full Scheme, some of this new work will be the pioneer of that. What we want is for you to come to us with your ideas, feedback on what is or isn't working.

We want to honour what the Scheme is about, solutions that meet the individual. A couple of other points… In the Sydney one, we did it jointly with the Human Rights Commission, because we wanted to position housing as being a fundamental issue of human rights. People with a disability are the same as everybody else in the community.

It's not just about having a house to live in, it's about a home in which you have rights, rights about who you live with, where you live, and rights about coming and going. There are a lot of sticky points in delivering that when dealing with a home that also has a lot of people come into it to deliver those supports - all sorts of overlays about health and safety.

But if we don't start with the fundamental proposition of control, choice, and honouring that person, we won't end up having housing facilitating good outcomes for people.

I think I will end on that. We know intuitively that housing, in the right place, in the right location, with the right sort of fit outs, the right sorts of communities, can facilitate good outcomes -



depending on self-management, more access to the community, more opportunity to participate. Open systems, not closed systems that isolate people. Our approach to housing is to make sure it works like that.

In terms of outcomes - more choice and control available to the person. So, we build our houses around that framework. We know from evidence around the world, that when people have more control, they get better outcomes.

The second thing is, the housing works in with the support package - not on top of, not separate to - it is part of the whole package of support to help meet that individual's need. And we will be measuring those outcomes with all our participants in the Scheme by their feedback on what is working and what is not working, and we will keep amending the ways in which we design and deliver services and supports to help focus our service providers’, housing providers’, health providers’ attention on services and supports that have good outcomes.

The NDIS is additional funding, but it is not just more funding to deliver the same - unless we are innovating, we won't be responding to those individual needs. It is as true in housing as it is with everything else. Thank you all for coming along today. We will be planning to do more of these as we get more excellent ideas to showcase with you. Thank you.

(Applause)

PROFESSOR RHONDA GALBALLY: Thank you for coming, and everything people have said in the Q&A we will include in our thinking. Thank you, David, that was a really rousing end.

(Applause)

Workshops. Our Western Australian friends, for people who would like to know more about individualised self-management, come to this workshop. WA is an absolute expert in that area. In five minutes.

(Video plays)

SPEAKER: It became clear it wasn't working… It didn't necessarily coincide with individuals. He made it clear he didn't want to live there…


SPEAKER: Each week we have noticed a regression in his skills.

The most obvious regression was the fact that he was starting to sit down and copy – that was the biggest.

SPEAKER:



We became increasingly uncomfortable with certain issues. In one situation, we agreed to it. Locking the door at night, but we thought that is very regressive. He would hit himself when frustrated and they would put him in splints. He had plaster on. That made things worse and he permanently injured his eye. We should have done something earlier.

SPEAKER: I went to lots of seminars and talks. We met with people and put our anxieties forward and we were getting old and tired and nothing was changing. We were just getting fed up and tired. We did not know of other options.

When the transition came along, it was probably one of the best things that happened because it really sent us in a direction where we had to fight for Nicholas's needs and security for the rest of his life. And to lessen our anxiety.

SPEAKER: When the transition was mentioned, that was the trigger for us to say, "We are getting desperate, now is the opportunity and we must take it."

We had desperation as well as opportunity, and seeing at last that there were alternatives. On top of that, meeting professional people.

SPEAKER: It required a range of things to be tackled and challenged.

SPEAKER: There was no template.

SPEAKER: It was unique, that is why.

SPEAKER: Just talking to other families about what is out there. And then doing some planning. One of the things that came out of it for me that was important was when we were talking about trying to build his capacities, they were difficult to pull out. Sometimes people found them hard to see.

SPEAKER: My involvement has been providing information, knowing how to navigate the system.

SPEAKER: We didn't know how to navigate the system – we were so relieved to have your input to help us because it made a big difference.

SPEAKER: That meant a lot – having the support from you guys. We ourselves had become institutionalised because we were dealing with bureaucracies. Your office does not appear like a bureaucracy.

When the people are professional and you walk in and think, "This is pretty good."



SPEAKER: The first thing was for Nicholas to get to know us and for us to get to know him. We needed to know what he wanted and how he wanted it. Understanding and communication. Although we had control, we were learning as we went. We had two people, week on week off, supporting him. This is the current situation and it will evolve although we don't know quite how. It will change with Nicholas's needs.

We have not had to use (Inaudible) much because Nicholas continues to enjoy the new place. He is quite happy. And his health seems good.

SPEAKER: He has put on 4 kg!

SPEAKER: Yes, he has. There is a common goal amongst the team at the moment. They believe in Nicholas, and they believe he is capable of anything. They all like him and enjoy his company. Nicholas enjoys their company. It is ‘one in, all in’.

SPEAKER: From where we started until now, that thing around high expectations and believing in him and his capacity, and discovering who he is and having people on board willing to do that.

SPEAKER: I couldn't have done it without the coordinator's support as well as the staff. We all help each other out. It would not have worked without the team.

SPEAKER: (Inaudible) is critical.

SPEAKER: We feel part of the success which is ongoing has been (Inaudible).

SPEAKER: (Inaudible) is 80% of my focus. My focus is 80$ on Nicholas, 10% on the parent and 10% on my boss. I definitely like to push and see what I can get out of people. When I first met Nicholas, I'm not sure if he wouldn't or couldn't do a lot for himself. With perseverance, there are a lot of things he is doing.

The other week when he was finishing his meal I asked him to put his plate on the bench when he was finished. Sometimes I have to prompt him. Last week I said nothing and he went and put it all up on the bench himself.

SPEAKER: The more we expect people to be independent – putting his own dishes in the sink for example and feeding himself – the more he will do it. If you prompt him, he will do it himself. He can be very independent if he wants to be.



SPEAKER: With less people dealing with Nicholas, we have consistency – people learning the system we are trying to use within the Scheme for Nicholas to do what he wants to do. He knows the names of the carers and who he is going out with. His behaviour has improved dramatically, and he does not have these massive meltdowns that he used to have.

SPEAKER: It is just having the thought that he is well cared for, and reaching his potential.

It is sad and good... Good because we know he has the potential. (Inaudible)

SPEAKER: Hello. If everybody would like to join the workshop, I am about to start in two minutes.

SU-HSIEN LEE: I'll just give everybody a couple of minutes to get a cup of tea.

You are here for the workshop, can I request that you come to the centre as much as possible, so I'm not trying to talk to the entire auditorium. Thank you.

SU-HSIEN LEE: Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for staying behind. If you do have any questions for me after I have finished, I'm happy to stay around. I'm trying to talk around the noise. Very briefly, I am from WA Individualised Services. We are not a service provider, but focus on individualised support and services, in and around promoting and advancing it. One of the key ways we do that is working with people and families and service providers in developing that understanding and capacity.

This is some of the work we do with people and families. We have a long history in WA around people self-managing, people employing their own support person, and with that experience we realise that for people employing their own support person, there are a lot of legal obligations that need to be taken into consideration.

For a few years now we have partnered with KPMG to clarify what these responsibilities are, and we still continue to do so. I'm going to provide you today with some brief information about some things you need to think of if you are choosing to self-manage, and if you are choosing to employ or engage your support person.

There are a number of legal and regulatory areas you need to take into consideration. There are five key areas of industrial relations, taxation, superannuation, workers compensation and health and safety. Today the great bulk of what I will talk about is taxation and superannuation. That's probably the heftiest area.

I will briefly touch on industrial relations, health and safety and workers compensation. Each state and territory have their own legislation and laws - we only have extensive experience in WA. I will give you links and references where you can find further information.

Industrial relations, it is the rights of employees and employers including the conditions of



employment, wages and salaries. In Victoria, you are covered by the National Workplace Relations System as Victoria’s industrial relations align with the Federal jurisdiction who fund the Fair Work Commission.

The PowerPoint will go up on the NDIA website after today.

There are rules governing things like leave entitlements. With the Federal system, an employee's minimum entitlements are set out in the National Employment Standards and any related awards. The main award related to us is the Social Community Home-Care and Disability Services Industry Award.

Here is a slide about what happens in WA, which I might bypass. The government retains responsibility over industrial relations, so we work under our state Industrial Relations Act.

Taxation. Determining who has responsibility for withholding or paying tax to the ATO, and the fundamental decision that have to be made for you when you are engaging your own support person, is to decide whether or not the person is an employee or an independent contractor.

The ATO doesn't make life easy for you - they don’t give you a simple definition. They refer to a common law definition, basically built up over years in the court system. It has come down to six factors. They look through each and every one, which is about the relationship that you have as the engager with the worker. I will talk through these in a second.

What the ATO will do is look at the individual facts of your relationship and, with each one, have a look. For example, with control. Is your worker directed in the way the work is performed, the how and where, or does the worker have more freedom in the way the work is done, subject to some terms of the contract? If there is more control, they are likely to be an employee.

Results contract – is the worker paid in reference to the number of hours worked or are they paid for an outcome and based on a negotiated price? If they are paid more for hours worked, then they are more of an employee.

Independence. This is an interesting one for us, of course, because none of us are running a business - you're individual people, trying to engage the support workers in and around the home. Nonetheless, it is a factor. They look at whether or not the support person is working within your business or their own business.

Ability to sub-contract. For example, if the support person that you have cannot make it, do they have the right to send someone else along? Or do they not? Do they have the ability to sub-contract to somebody else, or delegate to somebody else? If they have the right to do so, they are more like a contractor. If not, they are more like an employee.

You might argue it is very difficult to just bring in a replacement support person, but with this one, the ATO will not ask about the ease of it but whether you have given them the right to do it?

And the risk. Who takes on the risk if something goes wrong? You or them? If they do, they are more of an independent contractor. If you do, they are more of an employee.



Assets - who pays for them or provides them? If they do, they are an independent contractor. If you do, they are more like an employee.

There are a lot of problems with these indicators, if you have not already noticed. They are not nuanced to the kind of work that support people do and the environment in which they do it. It is part of the bulk of the work that is being done at the ATO, to better understand the circumstances and nuance the way these indicators are considered.

There have been some private rulings with the ATO and they have come back as people being contractors. So, it is possible.

You must go through the indicators and having done that, decide whether the support person is an employee or contractor.

Suffice to say, they cannot be a contractor or employee just because you want them to be. As an employer, there are less obligations if the person is a contractor. The ATO will determine the facts, using the six indicators, to determine whether the person is an employee or contractor. Any questions? I can take questions as I go because sometimes there are a lot of questions.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: (Inaudible)

SU-HSIEN LEE: We have both. It is a growth period. In WA we have a long history of people engaging their own support people. A long history of doing it possibly without the right understanding if they are an employee or a contractor. There is a lot of change back home with people understanding they must go through this to make this decision between employee and contractor, so I think there will be a shift in what they are. But we have had both, absolutely.


SU-HSIEN LEE: You can ring the ATO and get verbal advice from them, absolutely. Suffice to say, our experience is that the advice differs between people. But you can get a private ruling – written advice specifically to your circumstances. The problem with that is it takes time to apply and even longer for them to give you the ruling.

We have one member that just got it back – it has taken 1.5 years. Whereas the first one, a couple of years ago, only took a few months. But that is the way to get specific written advice about your specific circumstances.

If you go through all of that – the six indicators... Let me go back.

Some people will say that they are not sure as to how to decide on the indicators. What if they have three and three? The advice we give – if you are not sure, honestly, if a person is an employee or contractor, play it the safe route and treat them like an employee.



If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. If you kind of know they are in employee, even if you don't want them to be, treat them as an employee.

If your support person is an employee, you have responsibility for withholding tax, as required. You need to register yourself for PAYG Withholding with the ATO. Because you are not running a business, you do not need an ABN – you can get a WPN, a Withholding Payer Number, a non-business equivalent to an ABN. That's done with the ATO as an employer.

Like any other employee, your support person needs to complete a Tax File Number declaration – in all honesty, that is your safeguard, because that then provides their details and declares whether or not they are claiming a tax-free threshold, because you will then know how much or how little tax, if any, to withhold.

Then there is the responsibility of reporting and paying the withheld amount using an Activity Statement, completing a Payments Summary at the end of the year, and keeping a copy of the record and giving them copies.


SU-HSIEN LEE: I do not disagree. When we... Don't shoot the messenger! Absolutely.


SU-HSIEN LEE: The question was that a lot of this would be way too much responsibility for someone to manage, to understand and be able to go through. I agree. Part of the reason why… Having said that, though, when we have done this in WA many people said that they do not want to choose to self-manage, but many people do choose to do it despite this.

Also in WA, over the last 20 years, because of the associated responsibilities with this, we developed shared management. People are self-managing, employing their own support person, but an organisation supports them with back-end business such as payroll and tax. That has been happening in WA because of our history with self-management.

We are trying to make it clear to people that unfortunately the simplicity or complexity of it is out of our hands. We are just saying what needs to be done for the ATO.

COMMENT FROM FLOOR: It is possible to self-manage where you might be using the services of providers and you pay them. This is direct employment.

SU-HSIEN LEE: Self-management is broader than people engaging their own support people. This afternoon is purely for people who choose to self-manage and, within that, to engage their own support



person.

COMMENT FROM FLOOR: But people can self-manage...

SU-HSIEN LEE: And purchase services, absolutely. I tried to say that at the beginning. We are targeting a specific group of people who may want to choose to employ people as well. Self-management is broader than that.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: I employed (Unknown term). We have found if somebody is withholding tax for the workers, that person becomes the employer and not the (inaudible).

I was doing it originally. When another agency took over, just doing the withdrawal of the tax and the WorkCover, they are treated as the employer and not the family by the ATO.

SU-HSIEN LEE: That is something that has just come to our attention in the last little while and we are trying to get clarification from the ATO because we actually have other rulings and advice that suggest otherwise. Whether that is a change in policy, we do need to clarify that.

COMMENT FROM FLOOR: Originally we got the opposite...

SU-HSIEN LEE: That's why I'm thinking it is a change in policy. They need to promote that. This is where the Agency is doing the work for you – bear that in mind.

If you go through the indicators and assess a person as an independent contractor, you do not have a responsibility for withholding tax because as a contractor they have responsibility for declaring their income and paying their tax to the ATO. There are two ways – obviously, firstly, they are an independent contractor with an ABN.

There is some experience, though, that if they do not have an ABN, the alternative is that they can use what is known as a Statement By Supplier Form, but only in limited circumstances, an option of last resort and only in response to certain circumstances. This is where the payee as an individual has given you as the engager a written statement saying that the work being provided relates to a private pursuit or hobby or something of a domestic nature. That is a form that the ATO can actually provide you.

Bear in mind, this Statement By Supplier Form, one can only be used by contractors - not employees - only if their employment is solely of a private domestic nature. If not, it cannot be used. Only if they are not entitled to an ABN. If they are entitled to an ABN for the work they are doing, they cannot use this. This is why I am saying this is only in very limited circumstances.

Any questions on that?




SU-HSIEN LEE: Sorry, I can't hear you.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: Is an independent contractor required to be registered with the NDIA?

SU-HSIEN LEE: No. Within the context we are talking about, if somebody is self-managing, if somebody is privately engaging a support person, they don't need to be a registered provider with the NDIS.

Any other questions?


SU-HSIEN LEE: In itself? No. That's the short answer. We have got experiences of people back home where what has happened is support workers are basically told to get an ABN, “There you go, you are an independent contractor.” All well and good, if the ATO doesn't come in and audit the arrangement. But, say, for some reason the ATO comes in and has a look, the ABN doesn't say they are an independent contractor (inaudible).

Anything else?

Taxation. We find that is the hardest area for people to grapple with and comes with deciding whether somebody is an employee or contractor. The hardest bit is if somebody is deciding that, and then setting it all up. The minute it is set up, there are software systems in place that make the process much easier for you.

Superannuation is actually easier. We rely on the common law definition, but they actually have an extended definition, which pretty much applies to all our support persons.

That extended definition is… If a person works under a contract, wholly or principally for the labour of the person, that person is an employee for the purposes of superannuation. Labour means physical, mental or artistic effort. So in our case, every support person is deemed an employee. But we have a threshold when the superannuation (inaudible) extends.

However, for a general employee, the threshold is $450 gross, before tax, per calendar month. However it has typically been found that the support person supporting somebody in and around the house and community, it is seen as private or domestic work. If it is private or domestic in nature, the threshold changes. It is $450 per calendar month and 30 hours worked per week.

If they work 30 hours or more, the superannuation obligations extend. If they work less than 30 hours, you are not legally required to pay the extended (inaudible).



Our experience is, if you engage the support people to perform work relating to work for you, or relating to household affairs or organisation, this is when the threshold becomes 30 hours of $450 per calendar month. It is an 'and', not on 'or'. We say focus on the 30 hours, and you only pay the super obligations for the weeks they work more than 30 hours.

To meet your obligations, you need to pay the minimum 5.9% guarantee to the super fund. It has to be to the super fund, not an additional 5.9% to their bank account.

As of July 1 this year, the ATO has 'super streamed' - things have to go to the super fund in a certain way, so everything has to go through an online clearing house and the ATO has a (inaudible) called a Small-Business Super Clearing House. It is the clearing house that you can use. In case somebody asks, (inaudible) has been rectified and you can use the Withholding Payer Number with the clearing house.

Any questions on superannuation?

Health and safety. Everybody has the responsibility to provide a healthy and safe work in environment. Your body is Victoria Health and Safety. They have a whole heap of stuff to help you work out what your responsibilities are.

Very quickly, as an employer, you must provide a safe and healthy workplace for your workers and contractors, and this includes a list of things – providing and maintaining safe plant and equipment, safe systems of work, to make sure it is safe for them to work, implementing arrangements for the safe use, storage and handling of chemicals which most likely won't apply here, making sure the workplace is in a safe condition, providing adequate facilities and ensuring workers have adequate instruction, training and supervision.

Workers compensation is state-based, but you must consider whether you need workers compensation insurance or not. Back in WA, pretty much everybody has to take out workers compensation. The advice we have been given, is everybody needs to take out workers comp in WA. I'm not sure how dissimilar it is over here. WorkCover insurance is compulsory for employers and provides insurance cover for the cost if your worker becomes ill because of their work. There is a link to WorkSafe Victoria. They provide tools and information as to whether or not you are covered and need to take out insurance.

If they are a worker, and you expect to pay more than $7,500 per financial year, you must take out WorkCover insurance. This does also cover contractors. We were talking about employers, this is contractors. As I said, it is a very broad definition, this definition of work.

The worker can be full-time, part-time, casual, a person working under a contract of service, someone working on work experience, an apprentice… It is very broad.

I mentioned earlier – we are not providing this information by ourselves – we are working with KPMG on a lot of this, trying to make sure that the information we are giving is above board and current.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR:



(Inaudible)

SU-HSIEN LEE: Employers have to take out workers compensation. If you go to WorkSafe and WorkCover insurance, they will provide you with the contact details for you to ring through. In WA there are several insurers providing workers compensation, and no doubt WorkSafe will provide you with those details, and then you ring them and take out the workers compensation insurance.

You pay the premium – if it is like WA, it is based on the amount of money you will be paying in total to all your support people. The minimum is $180 per year, which will go up and down. At the beginning of the year they ask you to estimate how much you will fork out in salaries to your employees over the year. Based on that, you pay a premium set by them. At the end of the year, you tell them what you paid out and they will adjust the premium up or down.

COMMENT FROM FLOOR: (Inaudible)

SU-HSIEN LEE: Yes. On monies... That's right.


SU-HSIEN LEE: Yes, the type of industry. There is one cover for all employees, it is not based on the number of employees, it is based on the totality of money paid.


SU-HSIEN LEE: Yes.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: Are there other considerations if you have live-in carer?

SU-HSIEN LEE: If you are talking about a live-in carer in your own home, yes, because they would be deemed to be a worker and you would most likely take out workers compensation for them. Is that what you mean?


SU-HSIEN LEE: You will need to think about whether they are an employee or contractor, it depends on your arrangement with them. That will dictate your taxation obligations and, depending on the hours they work, that dictates your superannuation obligation to them.




SU-HSIEN LEE: Not in terms of legal elements where you are legally obliged. There are optional extras that you can think about. We can talk about that. But we are talking now about the bare legal obligations you must undertake.

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: From my understanding, you can stretch your funding (inaudible). I'm wondering if their insurance you have to pay is an extra cost, (inaudible) or are there separate line items? The NDIA might be $44 per hour and you might be paying $30, (inaudible)?

SU-HSIEN LEE: This becomes part of the planning conversation you have with them if you are opting to self-manage. You must take into consideration the totality of the costs, including the premium. In WA they have a separate line item for compensation and a separate one for superannuation. But the NDIA will start looking at the hourly rate for the support person and you have to take into consideration the additional costs that come with that. Is that right, Marisa?

Other questions?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: If a family chooses to self-manage, is it the client with disability who is the employer?

SU-HSIEN LEE: It depends on the individual. We have many family members who employ on behalf of their child.

SPEAKER: So, is the family member technically the employer?

SU-HSIEN LEE: It can be either, it depends on the arrangement. Sometimes the person with disability is the legal employer and the parent helps them with their responsibilities. We have other examples where mum or dad is actually the legal employer on behalf of their son or daughter.

SPEAKER: Where the employer is the client and issues come up, they may not have the ability to follow through...

SU-HSIEN LEE: This is where we have supported decision-making as a way forward and the ability to have family support them in their decisions. This is not available to everyone, of course, there are decisions that must be made around people's ability and interest and capacity to self-manage and engage their own support person. This is why many parents do tend to be the employers, rather than the person themselves.



SPEAKER: So, a decision is made about whether a person has capacity...

SU-HSIEN LEE: It depends. With the NDIA, I imagine it is a conversation between yourselves and the planner.

I am mindful because in WA we have three different systems and three ways of doing it, so I have to pause and think about it. Other questions?

QUESTION FROM FLOOR: Regarding legal guardianship, if I have guardianship and we were looking at self-managing, do I become responsible for... When it comes to paying workers compensation and all the other things, if I did not have guardianship in Victoria, does that mean somebody else would be appointed to look after the financial and legal issues for my child? (Inaudible)

SU-HSIEN LEE: No, I think I understand the question, do tell me if I'm not understanding – there are lots of mums and dads who are employing support people on behalf of, and for, their son or daughter and they do not have guardianship orders. It is not necessary because they are seen to have natural authority. So, you having legal guardianship adds another legal notch onto your belt for being able to employ on behalf of your son or daughter.

Other questions?

I have run through a lot of information in about half an hour. There is probably a lot more thinking that goes into it. If you happen to have any questions after today, feel free to contact us even though we are in WA. We are only a phone call away. My contact details are on the table and I will be around for a while if you have questions.

(Applause)


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