US Supreme Court: 05-1631

8/14/2019 US Supreme Court: 05-1631

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Official - Subject to Final Review

JUSTICE BREYER: I don't see how -- I mean,

you know, given our prior discussion here, I don't see

how that's the issue. Because you say we have to assume

that the Defendant here didn't know that, in fact, all

that was at issue was a violation of the traffic law.

MR. JONES: Well, I'm not talking about the

underlying violation here. I'm talking about the

conduct observed by the officer who made the decision to

use deadly force.

JUSTICE BREYER: That conduct -- it could be

conduct -- you could say exactly your same question,

just as the Chief just said. I mean, I don't know how

to get around this. You could say the question was,

does a person who reasonably thinks he might be being

pursued for a murder --

MR. JONES: This is the issue. This is the

issue. If what this person is doing is driving, say

driving unsafely, but they are not driving violently,

they are not driving aggressively, they are not menacing

anyone on the road. They are simply driving fast trying

to get away, that in and of itself, is that going to be

justification for the use of deadly force or is

something more going to be required?

JUSTICE ALITO: When someone is fleeing and

creating a grave danger, let's just assume that that's

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Alderson Reporting Company



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the case, creating a very danger for other drivers on

the road, when in your view is it reasonable for the

police to use deadly force to stop that, as opposed to

breaking off the chase? What, what is the test.

MR. JONES: Well, under Garner the test is

they have to be threatening violence or inflicting

violence against someone. There have to be no other

alternatives other than deadly force available to effect

the apprehension. And assuming there is justification

for deadly force, then there is a duty to give a warning

where feasible before using deadly force. And the court

below felt none of those three factors --

JUSTICE ALITO: How could you possibly give

a warning in this situation?

MR. JONES: It's academic in this case,

because the first two factors were not met. I mean,

it's our position that you don't worry about giving a

warning unless you have the right to use deadly force,

and if you don't get to that point then it's -- it's a

moot question.

JUSTICE GINSBURG: Why wasn't there warning?

There were lights, there were sirens. Surely the

defendant knew that the police were trying to stop him.

MR. JONES: There was certainly warning that

he needed -- that he was expected to pull over. There

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was no warning of any intent to use deadly force.

JUSTICE BREYER: What am I -- you said

factually. What am I supposed to assume? You said in

light of -- I mean, I looked at the tape and that tape

shows he is weaving on both sides of the lane, swerving

around automobiles that are coming in the opposite

direction with their lights on, goes through a red light

where there are several cars that are right there,

weaves around them, and there are cars coming the other

way, weaves back, goes down the road.

Now, what in fact -- am I supposed to

pretend I haven't seen that? What am I supposed to

pretend to here?

MR. JONES: Well, I didn't see that.

JUSTICE BREYER: You didn't see that?

MR. JONES: I --

JUSTICE BREYER: You didn't -- I thought

that -- you didn't see that?

MR. JONES: Well, the point is most people

use the word weaving to describe the motion of

Mr. Harris's car is when they are going through the, the

shopping center --

JUSTICE BREYER: No, no. I -- what I saw is

he is driving down one lane, what I mean by weaving, and

this lane goes with me in traffic. And there is some

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cars in front of him, so he goes in the other lane where

the cars are now coming right directly at him. And then

before they hit him, he goes back to the first lane and

he does this while going through a red light, it seemed

to me.

Am I -- did I mis-see that? I'll go look at

it again if you --

MR. JONES: The -- feel free to look at it

again.

JUSTICE BREYER: Yeah.

MR. JONES: But those are not the facts that

were found by the court below in this --

JUSTICE BREYER: Well that's, that's what I

wonder. If the court says that isn't what happened, and

I see with my eyes that is what happened, what am I

supposed to do?

MR. JONES: Well, I think you apply the law,

Your Honor.

JUSTICE KENNEDY: The district --

(Laughter.)

JUSTICE KENNEDY: Under, under -- under your

rule, what you're concerned with is the bumping, the use

of the force. Under your rule, if the police continue

the chase without using the, without trying to ram him,

and then there is an accident and innocent people are

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killed, or injured, I assume that under the tort laws of

most states, the police could be liable.

MR. JONES: Well in theory perhaps they

could be if the officer was a joint proximate cause of

the accident, but in most states --

JUSTICE KENNEDY: Well, aren't they the

proximate cause if they continue the chase without

trying to terminate it?

MR. JONES: That's correct. If the officer

terminates the chase then he is never going to be liable

because number one he is acting prudently; he is going

based upon Department of Justice studies showing 70

percent --

JUSTICE KENNEDY: No. No. Well, I meant

terminate the chase by -- by -- by forcing him off the

road.

MR. JONES: Well, if he terminates the chase

using deadly force, that that creates a whole host of

other problems.

JUSTICE KENNEDY: But isn't there -- but

isn't that one way to assure that the police are not

liable, both from a moral standpoint and a legal

standpoint, for causing the injury of other people?

MR. JONES: Now from a constitutional

standpoint the Fourth Amendment doesn't protect other

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people. It protects those who have been seized. And

that's, that's the framework we are dealing with here

today.

JUSTICE KENNEDY: Well, you mean it's

irrelevant to our analysis to consider that he might

injure other people?

MR. JONES: The potential for danger to

others is certainly part of the justification for deadly

force, just as, if deadly force cannot be used

endangering other people, then that certainly goes into

the matrix, too.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Mr. Jones, could I --

MR. JONES: Yeah.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Could I ask whether the

portion of the opinion that you say establishes that he

was not endangering anybody is this portion? The court

is mindful that traffic laws are designed to -- safely

-- and Harris acted in an unsafe manner. However, the

record reflects" -- - is this the portion?

MR. JONES: Yes.

JUSTICE SCALIA: -- "that he maintained

control over his vehicle." Well, that doesn't prove

he's not endangering anybody. "Used his turn signals"

-- wonderful.

(Laughter.)

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JUSTICE SCALIA: "And did not endanger any

particular motorist on the road." I think that's true.

In that scary chase he, he didn't come close to hitting

any particular car, but I don't think that's, that's a

finding that he was not endangering anybody. "Any

particular motorist," but he was endangering the public

at large.

MR. JONES: Well, this is my point is that

if, if the drive --if the hazard caused by driving in

and of itself is the only threat here, does that rise to

a level of imminency and immediacy that justifies the

use of deadly force? If it does, then any officer who

perceives that someone is driving unsafely and that they

may cause an accident to someone who may or may not be

down the road if not stopped, would be justified in

using deadly force, to literally take out anyone who is

speeding.

JUSTICE SCALIA: It depends on how fast --

if depends on how fast the car is going, whether it's a

two-lane road or four-lane divided highway. All those

factors come into, into account. And it doesn't seem to

me that we have to adopt a rule that will, that will

discourage police officers. There's, there's enough

disincentive to engage in this kind of activity in the

fact that the police officer may hurt himself. It's

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pretty risky to conduct this kind of a maneuver, don't

you think? I wouldn't have done it if I was Scott.

MR. JONES: Well that's --

JUSTICE SCALIA: I would have let the guy

go.

MR. JONES: Now what he, if he --

JUSTICE SCALIA: Driving 90 miles an hour

and comes up, approaches that car, that car swerved.

Scott could have been killed, couldn't he?

MR. JONES: Absolutely. Or because he's

also --

JUSTICE SCALIA: So I don't think we need a

whole lot of disincentive to stop police officers in

engaging in frolicsome conduct.

MR. JONES: Well, not only that, Justice

Scalia. The officer had no control over what was going

to happen once he used deadly force, like the officer

who fired into the cab of a flying vehicle in Barn v

Cox, once you disable the driver the car keeps going.

And in this case, when you -- when you hit the vehicle

and knock a vehicle that has been in control and make it

out of control, then it's now an unguided missile that

could just as easily cross the center line and hit an

innocent person.

JUSTICE STEVENS: Let me just ask this

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question. In trying to assess the likelihood of harm to

innocent people who would be hurt by this by this guy

driving so fast, is that, do we measure it by assuming

that the chase will continue? Or do we measure it by

assuming that the chase would be discontinued?

MR. JONES: The officer --

JUSTICE STEVENS: Just as we did in Garner?

MR. JONES: The officer has both options. I

mean Garner simply commands that he not use deadly force

if it's a choice between letting him go and using deadly

force. Now in the Sacramento v Lewis case, it does say

that involves a different, a different type of claim and

a different standard. But in the Sacramento case it

does say that an officer in a pursuit has a duty to

always be weighing the risk of the continued pursuit

against the risk to the public. So there is an

independent duty there to act reasonably.

JUSTICE STEVENS: If it were -- clear that a

jury could find that there would be no unreasonable risk

to innocent motorists if they discontinued the chase --

assume that's a possible finding. If that were true,

would there be a duty to discontinue the chase?

MR. JONES: Not under the Fourth Amendment.

Now, the -- the only expert testimony in this record on

that subject says there is a 7 percent chance --

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JUSTICE STEVENS: You're saying there is a

duty not to use deadly force.

MR. JONES: That's what Garner says, if you

don't use deadly force. And that's what our claim is.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: And aren't you

concerned that that creates an incentive in every case

for anyone who, that sees the blue lights behind them to

know that all they have to do is keep fleeing and the

police are going to have to give up eventually?

MR. JONES: Well, let me respond by reading

a portion of Garner that deals with that point,

Mr. Chief Justice. These, these same important policy

reasons were raised in Garner, that we don't want to

encourage disobedience of issues. We want to discourage

people from fleeing. And this is what the Garner Court

said --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, Garner --

Garner was the case involving shooting the guy in the

back, right?

MR. JONES: Yes. He might easily break into

someone else's house and perhaps end up killing them.

This was a vigorous dissent in Garner. But this is what

the majority said: "Without in any way disparaging the

importance of these goals we are not convinced that the

use of deadly force is a sufficiently productive means

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of accomplishing them to justify the killing of

nonviolent suspects."

And if unsafe driving --

JUSTICE KENNEDY: But your, your answer to

Justice Stevens as I understand it was the police not

have the duty to discontinue the chase? The obverse of

that is that the police may prolong the chase, i.e.,

prolong the injury to the public. I'm surprised at your

answer.

MR. JONES: Well, I think there is an

independent duty, it doesn't rise under the Fourth

Amendment, but there is an independent duty to do that.

But my concern is that under Garner, given a choice

between --

JUSTICE STEVENS: It is certainly the case

that if there is going to be a, a risk of deadly harm to

innocent third parties, there would be a duty to

discontinue the chase rather kill him. But you don't

seem to buy that.

MR. JONES: Well, experience shows most of

the time when you discontinue a chase, the person who is

running discontinues driving unsafely. That is the --

that is experience. This officer's own policy says that

JUSTICE SCALIA: Did this study show what

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future fleeing speeders would do?

I mean, I will accept that for, for the sake

of argument that -- in fact, it's probably true. I

would have guessed that, if the police stopped chasing,

you don't go 90 miles an hour anymore. But did this

study show what the effect of a rule that says stop

chasing when he hits 85, what the effect of that rule

would be on, on fleeing speeders or fleeing felons, or

fleeing anybody?

MR. JONES: Well, the rule simply says you

don't kill him just because he is driving unsafely. And

if, it simply says that if the choice is between killing

him and letting him go, you have to let him go if the

Garner factors aren't present. And we find nothing in

the law and no reason to create a new exception in the

law that says that Garner doesn't apply if you're

fleeing by vehicle.

Thank you. We ask that the Court of Appeals

be affirmed.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

Mr. Jones.

Mr. Savrin, you have four minutes remaining.

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF PHILIP W. SAVRIN,

ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER

MR. SAVRIN: Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

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Let me refocus for a moment that in order

for the officer to be denied qualified immunity in this

context a jury would have to be able to find two things.

One, that no -- that there was no probable cause, and

second, that that was clearly established. And I think

that the discussion this morning if nothing else shows

that it's not clearly established.

As far as the Fourth Amendment is concerned,

I think the measure needs to be exactly as this Court

stated in Graham versus Connor, which is looking at the

facts from the standpoint of the officer on the scene,

because after all, he has to make split-second

decisions. He does not have the benefit of taking

depositions of Mr. Harris --

JUSTICE BREYER: What am I supposed to do?

I mean, I'll look again at the tape. I certainly will

do that. But suppose I look at the tape and I end up

with Chico Marx's old question with respect to the Court

of Appeals: Who do you believe, me or your own eyes?

MR. SAVRIN: Your Honor, I think the answer

to that question was provided in this decision in

Ornelas versus United States, a decision by this Court

in 1996 that came up in the context of a criminal, a

direct criminal appeal involving the question of

probable cause. And this Court set forth very clearly

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that the historical facts are given deference. The

question of, a legal question about whether those facts

reasonably give rise to probable cause is an independent

de novo review.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Whether he is endangering

anybody is a historical fact, no? So what do you do

about that finding?

MR. SAVRIN: I don't believe that is

historical fact.

JUSTICE SCALIA: It is.

MR. SAVRIN: The historical facts here are

whether Mr. Harris was driving excessively, whether he

was driving across the line, whether he was driving at

high rates of speed, whether there was anybody in his

path, whether he had collided with anyone. I think the

question about whether or not those facts give rise to

probable cause to believe that Harris was a threat of

serious physical harm is a legal issue, and I think the

Court of Appeals recognized that in this case when they

applied a different analysis or came out with a

different result to those same undisputed facts.

JUSTICE GINSBURG: What is the, the court

saying -- and this is on page 39 A of the petition

appendix -- when Harris was driving away from officers

and when there, when there were no other motorists or

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pedestrians nearby, thus casting doubt on defendant's

assertion that at the time of the ramming, Harris posed

an immediate threat of harm to others.

This is a finding that there were no other

motorists or pedestrians nearby when the ramming

occurred.

MR. SAVRIN: And that is a fact that we

accept as true in the immediate vicinity. The tape

shows that there was a vehicle just 12 seconds before,

and I think that a reasonable officer at the time would

believe that that wasn't going to be the last vehicle on

that road.

JUSTICE SCALIA: I would hope he would wait

until there were no pedestrians or vehicles coming

before he, before he did the ramming.

MR. SAVRIN: Yes, Your Honor.

JUSTICE SCALIA: I assume he waited

precisely for that kind of a gap in the traffic?

MR. SAVRIN: Yes, Your Honor. Exactly. He

had limited options and I believe it was a no-win

scenario. And he took the best course that he

reasonably believed he could at the time. And --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Do you agree with

Mr. Jones' statement that none of Mr. Harris' conduct

rose to the level of a felony?

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MR. SAVRIN: I would not, Your Honor. In

our brief we did list a number of felonies that

Mr. Harris, that we believe he committed. But I would

go back to Garner, and Garner says that an armed suspect

would have been a different case. And Garner also says

that some misdemeanors such as drunk driving are more

dangerous that some felonies such as white collar crime.

So I think the question should not be whether it's a

technical issue of crossing the line from misdemeanor to

felony, but the harm that is being caused by the

continued driving that's exactly what occurred in this

case.

And if I could respond to Justice Breyer's

question about what to do in terms of responding to

Mr. Marx's question, I think the Ornelas case says that

you would review it for clear error. And in this case

you would not owe deference of a finding of fact by the

lower court.

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,

Mr. Savrin. The case is submitted.

[Whereupon, at 11:47 a.m., the case in the

above-titled matter was submitted.]

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13:2 14:2426:9,12 36:1846:4,7 48:1454:4,25 55:355:17

caused 5:1013:13 48:957:10

causes 15:19causing 6:17

46:23center 3:21,24

4:4,5,9,24 5:722:3 27:5,1227:17 44:2249:23

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29:1 31:9,1132:23 35:1140:1 43:2447:8,10 52:15

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chased 19:11,1120:1 21:8chases 23:5

25:21 31:23chasing 21:12

53:4,7Chico 54:18Chief 3:3,8 8:23

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choice 29:1938:12 50:1052:13 53:12

chose 9:9 37:2circuit 10:6,12

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14:19 34:2235:12,14,21

41:11 54:5,754:25client 27:19close 15:1 48:3closed 27:14Code 10:12 11:8collar 57:7collided 3:22

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40:13 48:3,21comes 33:6 49:8coming 28:8

40:15 44:6,945:2 56:14

command 18:8commands 25:3

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31:25 38:1239:12 40:257:3

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Court's 34:1534:16 35:11

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findings 41:19Finish 12:9

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39:6 40:2541:25 42:9,2243:3,8,10,1143:18 44:145:23 46:1847:9,9 48:1248:16 49:1750:9,11 51:2,451:25

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16:11,15,1917:3,9,18,2518:6,14 19:1,319:10,19,23,2520:3,5,9,10,1220:16,20 21:321:17,20 22:622:12,19,23,2322:24 23:8,1824:12,17,2525:4,16,2326:3,11,19,2427:3,7,23 28:228:5,7,14,1729:7,24 30:5,830:11,14,18,22

31:4,13,13,2232:2,16,2533:12 34:6,1734:20 35:16,2336:4,9,13,2136:22,25 37:537:6,14,1938:1,7,16,1939:2,5,10,1539:19,22 40:140:3,11,1741:1,4,12 42:142:10,24 43:1343:21 44:2,1544:17,23 45:1045:13,19,2146:6,12,14,2047:4,12,14,2148:1,18 49:4,749:12,15,2550:7,18 51:1,551:12,17 52:452:5,15,2553:20,25 54:1555:5,10,2256:13,17,2357:13,19

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US Supreme Court: 05-1631

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