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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION

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PRE-SOLICITATION CONFERENCE

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CITY PAIR PROGRAM

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THURSDAY

FEBRUARY 3, 2011

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The conference was held at

2200 Crystal Drive, Arlington, Virginia,

Kristen Jaremback, Contracting Officer,

presiding.

PRESENT:

KRISTEN JAREMBACK, Contracting Officer, GSA

AMBER GRAY, Contract Specialist, GSA

JERRY W. ELLIS, Business Management

Specialist, GSA

ERGENE LEE, Program Manager, GSA

VINCENT AQUILINO, Program Analyst, GSA

CURRY HELTON, ESQ., GSA

TIFFANY KO, GSA

ANNIE SCOTT, GSA

KEVIN SASIEH, AMC

ANDREA CARLOCK, DoD

SHIRLEY HALL, DoD

HOWARD HICKS, DoD

JAY JOHNSON, DoD

KEVIN DEROUM, DOJ

PAUL DVORAK, USSS


PRESENT: (cont'd)

ROBERT SMITH, DOI

DEBBIE VANSELOW, EPA

HERB WALKER, DOT

ANGIE MILLER, Treasury

SUSAN MONTENEGRO, DOI/NBC

LES WEISBECK, DOC

PERLA CORPUS, GSA OIG

CONTRACTORS PRESENT:

TOM BILLONE, United Airlines

SARA SISSON, Delta Airlines

JEFF HAAG, Southwest Airlines

DENNY CLIFFORD, Delta Airlines

MATTHEW KESSI, Alaska Airlines

GEORGE COYLE, American Airlines

DONNA CAVOS, Frontier Airlines

LINDA NELLIS, SunCountry

CHRIS GAMMON, US Airways

CLIFF SENTER, Hawaiian Airlines

MIKO SNYDER, Alaska Airlines

CAROLYN ALBERTS, JetBlue

DRISS BELMADANI JetBlue

TODD DUNYON, Alaska Airlines

TONY GOODMANN, Virgin America

KEVIN McMAHON, Airtran

JOSH JUNK, Airtran


C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Page

Welcome, Introductions, and Roll Call......4

Presentation of FY 12 Pre-Bid Overview

Comments by Amber Gray and Jerry Ellis....12

Question/Answer Session...................19

Adjournment...............................95


1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (1:36 p.m.)

3 MS. JAREMBACK: Hello. Hi. We're

4 going to get started. I think everyone who is

5 going to be here is here. I know there are

6 some folks on the phone, too, but first I

7 would like to welcome everybody on behalf of

8 the entire City Pair Team to the FY12 City

9 Pair procurement pre-solicitation meeting.

10 Before I introduce my team and

11 make a -- do a roll call of everyone in

12 attendance here and on the phone, I just want

13 to make a few general comments. Be mindful of

14 the purpose of the meeting is to discuss the

15 FY12 procurement, and any program issues

16 related to future procurements from FY13 and

17 beyond will be handled in another separate

18 meeting. So if you have any of those issues,

19 we have our program office here. We will be

20 glad to take note of them, but we will wait

21 for another meeting to take care of those.

22 And also, as most of you all know


1 through coming to other meetings of this type,

2 we have one microphone, apparently, here, so

3 we'll be passing it around. Make sure that if

4 you do speak to identify yourself before you

5 speak. And also, make sure if you want to

6 talk, have the microphone in your hand. We

7 are recording this, so we want to make sure we

8 have an accurate reflection of the meeting.

9 So with that said, welcome, and

10 thank you again for coming. I am Kristen

11 Jaremback. I'm the Contracting Officer for

12 the City Pair Program, and now I'm going to

13 let my team introduce themselves.

14 MS. GRAY: Good afternoon. My

15 name is Amber Gray. I'm the Contract

16 Specialist for the City Pair Program.

17 MR. ELLIS: Good afternoon. Jerry

18 Ellis, Business Management Specialist for the

19 City Pair Program.

20 MR. JOHNSON: Jay Johnson,

21 Department of Defense, U.S. TRANSCOM.

22 MS. SCOTT: Annie Scott, GSA,


1 Audit Division.

2 MS. JACK: Donna Jack, GSA,

3 Transportation Audits.

4 MS. HALL: Shirley Hall, Defense

5 Travel Management Office.

6 MR. HICKS: Howard Hicks, Defense

7 Travel Management Office.

8 MS. CARLOCK: Andrea Carlock,

9 Defense Travel Management Office.

10 MR. CLIFFORD: Denny Clifford,

11 Delta Airlines.

12 MS. SISSON: Sara Sisson, Delta

13 Airlines.

14 MR. BILLONE: Tom Billone, United

15 Continental Holdings.

16 MR. DVORAK: Paul Dvorak, Secret

17 Service, Logistics Resource Center.

18 MR. HELTON: Curry HElton, GSA

19 Legal.

20 MR. HAAG: Jeff Haag, Southwest

21 Airlines.

22 MS. CORPUS: Perla Corpus, GSA,


1 OIG.

2 MS. KO: Tiffany Ko, GSA IG.

3 MS. CHAPEL: Brittany Chapel. I'm

4 an intern with GSA, Contract Specialist.

5 MR. AQUILINO: I'm Vince Aquilino.

6 I'm a Program Analyst for GSA.

7 MR. LEE: Hi, everybody. Gene

8 Lee, GSA. I'm the Program Director for the

9 City Pair Program. And a point of

10 clarification, at the tail end of today's

11 meeting, we will conclude the pre-solicitation

12 conference at the end of whatever we need to

13 cover, and then we have time for some --

14 several issues that relate to the Program

15 Management Office. We can do the follow-on

16 meeting as soon as -- immediately after this

17 meeting.

18 So, thank you.

19 MR. DEROUM: Kevin Deroum,

20 Department of Justice, Systems Accountant.

21 MR. SASIEH: Kevin Sasieh, Air

22 Mobility Command.


1 MR. AQUILINO: Can we have people

2 on the phone give their names, please?

3 Somebody start off.

4 MR. SMITH: Robert Smith,

5 Department of Interior.

6 MR. AQUILINO: Robert Smith,

7 Department of Interior.

8 MR. KESSI: Matthew Kessi, Alaska

9 Airlines.

10 MR. AQUILINO: Alaska Airlines.

11 Say that again? Who is it?

12 MR. KESSI: Matthew Kessi, Alaska

13 --

14 MR. AQUILINO: Oh, Matthew. Yes,

15 Matthew Kessi.

16 MR. COYLE: Yes. This is George

17 Coyle with American Airlines.

18 MR. AQUILINO: George Coyle with

19 American.

20 MS. CAVOS: Donna Cavos, Frontier.

21 MR. AQUILINO: Donna Cavos with

22 Frontier.


1 MS. NELLIS: Linda Nellis with

2 SunCountry.

3 MR. AQUILINO: Linda Nellis with

4 SunCountry.

5 MR. GAMMON: Chris Gammon, US

6 Airways.

7 MR. AQUILINO: Chris Gammon, US

8 Airways.

9 MS. VANSELOW: Debbie Vanselow,

10 EPA.

11 MR. AQUILINO: Debbie Vanselow,

12 EPA.

13 MR. WALKER: Herbert Walker, DOT.

14 MR. AQUILINO: Herb Walker, DOT.

15 MS. MILLER: Angie Miller,

16 Department of Treasury.

17 MR. AQUILINO: Angie Miller,

18 Department of Treasury.

19 Anyone else?

20 MR. SENTER: Cliff Senter,

21 Hawaiian Airlines.

22 MR. AQUILINO: Clifford Senter,


1 Hawaiian Airlines.

2 MR. SENTER: Yes.

3 MR. AQUILINO: Thank you, Cliff.

4 MS. SNYDER: Miko Snyder from

5 Alaska Airlines.

6 MR. AQUILINO: Miko Snyder from

7 Alaska Airlines.

8 MS. ALBERTS: Carolyn Alberts,

9 JetBlue Airways.

10 MR. AQUILINO: Yes. Carolyn

11 Alberts, JetBlue.

12 MR. BELMADANI: This is Driss

13 Belmadani, JetBlue.

14 MR. AQUILINO: Driss Belmadani,

15 JetBlue.

16 MR. DUNYON: Todd Dunyon, Alaska

17 Airlines.

18 MR. AQUILINO: Todd Dunyon, Alaska

19 Airlines.

20 MR. GOODMANN: Tony Goodmann,

21 Virgin America.

22 MR. AQUILINO: Tony Goodmann,


1 Virgin America.

2 MS. MONTENEGRO: Susan Montenegro,

3 DOI/NBC.

4 MR. AQUILINO: Susan Montenegro,

5 DOI/NBC.

6 That's it? Thanks very much.

7 Anybody else on the line that we didn't get?

8 MR. McMAHON: Yes. This is Kevin

9 McMahon and Josh Junk with Airtran.

10 MR. AQUILINO: Kevin McMahon, Josh

11 Junk, Airtran Airways.

12 Did someone just join us?

13 MR. WEISBECK: Yes. This is Less

14 Weisbeck from Department of Commerce.

15 MR. AQUILINO: Les, what is your

16 last name again, please?

17 MR. WEISBECK: Weisbeck.

18 MR. AQUILINO: Weisbeck. From

19 Department of Commerce. Thank you.

20 MR. WEISBECK: Thank you.

21 MS. BENDER: This is Camille

22 Bender from IRS.


1 MR. AQUILINO: Camille Bender,

2 IRS. Thank you, Camille.

3 Okay. Anyone else?

4 (No response)

5 Thank you very much. Can somebody

6 tell me how they are hearing people, hearing

7 this conversation? Is it fine or speak up?

8 MS. ALBERTA: So far so good.

9 MR. AQUILINO: Good? Okay, great.

10 We have one of the microphones right near the

11 speaker's lectern, and we'll make sure that

12 people use the microphone in the room.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. GRAY: Okay. Good afternoon.

15 The City Pair conference [solicitation] will

16 start off with the agenda. I'll go over some

17 of the items that we are going to be covering

18 this afternoon -- the review of the general

19 requirements, changes to Section B, proposed

20 change to service evaluation, Section B.36

21 review of activity reporting, FY12 market

22 selection and market information, City Pair


1 Program website update, CPP points of contact

2 and general inquiries, and then we will take

3 questions. Following questions, we will have

4 the Program Office go over some items from

5 their office.

6 Attachment 1 of the proposal

7 checklist does not contain any changes to

8 date. All documents listed in Attachment 1

9 are to be completed, signed, and mailed or

10 carried to our office. All paper submissions

11 must be received by 3:00 p.m. Eastern Standard

12 Time on March 24, 2011.

13 Please be sure to make sure you

14 renew your information in the Central

15 Contractor Registration, CCR, and your ORCA,

16 Online Representations and Certifications

17 Applications system.

18 For those unfamiliar with COPS,

19 COPS is an online system for the City Pair

20 Program which we utilize to provide the

21 technical and price proposal from carriers.

22 It requires a user name and password, which


1 will be created and used, issued to all

2 carriers via e-mail. An e-mail will be sent

3 out to all carriers the last week of February

4 of this year requesting the names of all users

5 requiring access to the COPS system.

6 The test application allows

7 carriers an opportunity to practice in COPS

8 and become familiar with the system before it

9 opens into live production. It is important

10 to note that the test application will be open

11 on Monday, February 28, 2011, and it will

12 close on Friday, March 4, 2011.

13 For Group 1 offer uploads, all

14 carriers are to submit their technical and

15 price proposals for Group 1 and extended

16 connect markets in the live production system.

17 Please note that COPS will open for live

18 production on Monday, March 7, 2011, and will

19 close on Thursday, March 24, 2011.

20 COPS Group 2 offer upload allows

21 carriers to submit their technical and price

22 proposals for Group 2 markets in the live


1 production. Please note that COPS will open

2 for live production for Group 2 on Monday,

3 March 28, 2011, and will close on Thursday,

4 April 14, 2011.

5 MR. ELLIS: I would just like to

6 make a comment regarding COPS and your upload

7 of COPS. Please do not wait until the last

8 day, the last minute, to upload your data,

9 especially if you are uploading a lot of

10 market information. We have had instances in

11 the past, especially on the last day, where we

12 have more than one airline or several airlines

13 trying to upload at the same time, and it

14 completely closes the system down.

15 So COPS will be open for a two-

16 week period, both for Group 1 and Group 2. We

17 would appreciate it if you would -- once you

18 are getting ready to upload, is upload as soon

19 as possible and please not wait until the last

20 minute, so you don't close our system down.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. GRAY: Thank you, Jerry.


1 Okay. Now we're going to go over

2 the subcontracting plan. Basically, the

3 commercial plans cover the offeror's fiscal

4 year, and they are to be renewed within 30

5 working days prior to the end of the offeror's

6 fiscal year.

7 The individual plans cover the

8 entire contract period, including option

9 periods, and must be renewed by April 13th.

10 There are only two carriers who need to review

11 their individual plans. I have pretty much

12 spoken with everyone here regarding their

13 commercial plans. Most of you have been

14 pretty good with getting everything that I

15 need back to me, so I appreciate that.

16 As far as the electronic

17 subcontracting reporting system, this system

18 allows offers who submit an individual plan

19 that covers the contract and option periods to

20 submit their ISR reports. And they are due

21 twice a year, by April 30th and October 30th.

22 In addition, offerors must


1 complete the SSR once a year. For SSR

2 reports, all offers, regardless of the plan

3 type, reports are due once a year by October

4 30th. If you have any reporting data for SSR,

5 it is supposed to be reflective of the

6 subcontracting accomplishments during the

7 government's fiscal year and not the calendar

8 year.

9 Changes to Section B -- there was

10 language changes that has been added to

11 Section B.4, B.21, and B.26 regarding the

12 Native American Housing Assistance and Self-

13 Determination Act. All of that has been

14 updated in the contract.

15 And next we will have Jerry -- he

16 is going to go over the proposed service

17 evaluation changes.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. ELLIS: Thank you, Amber.

20 Jerry Ellis, GSA, Business

21 Management Specialist. Our customers asked

22 that we make a proposed change within the


1 service evaluation change for the Group 1

2 markets, that being to include regional jet in

3 with the turboprop and prop as opposed to full

4 or large jets. Reason being is because of the

5 difference of the amount of passengers, but

6 more especially the lack of cargo space on the

7 regional jets.

8 So we were asked to award -- or

9 make awards based also on points, full jets as

10 opposed to regional type jets. So our

11 proposal is to include regional jets in with

12 the propeller and turboprop as opposed to full

13 jets as an evaluation factor.

14 So I will show you our definition

15 of RJs in the B.1 section definitions, change

16 the subchapter 4 to include jet versus R jet,

17 regional jets, propellers, and turboprops, and

18 assign the appropriate points for full jets as

19 opposed to RJs, and also in Section D.1 for

20 the evaluation in Group 1.

21 Okay. So, in definition, a jet is

22 defined -- means a jet-driven aircraft, not


1 including regional jets, propeller planes, or

2 turboprops, and an aircraft with a total

3 passenger capacity of 100 or more passengers.

4 Regional jets will be defined as a

5 commuter-type jet aircraft with a total

6 passenger capacity of 99 or fewer passengers.

7 So those -- if we have any

8 comments on whether we are defining a regional

9 jet as opposed to a full jet.

10 MR. BILLONE: Yes. This is Tom

11 Billone, United --

12 MR. ELLIS: Wait a minute. Wait.

13 They will talk --

14 MR. BILLONE: You asked if there

15 were any comments.

16 MR. ELLIS: Wait a minute. You

17 have to have the microphone.

18 MR. BILLONE: I have to have the

19 microphone. Okay.

20 MR. ELLIS: And you have to

21 identify yourself.

22 MR. BILLONE: This is Tom Billone,


1 United Airlines. And I am trying to

2 understand here. You are going to include

3 regional jets in with -- that have 99 or fewer

4 passengers. And with a turboprop or prop that

5 has 29 passengers, you're going to evaluate

6 them the same?

7 MR. ELLIS: Well, basically, what

8 happens, if you remember, in the evaluation

9 factor, you get a point for a full jet and

10 zero points for any others. So basically it

11 will be thrown into, you know --

12 MR. BILLONE: The jet.

13 MR. ELLIS: -- in the jet versus

14 R jet factor.

15 MR. CLIFFORD: Denny Clifford,

16 Delta Airlines. You mentioned earlier that

17 the reason is mainly because of the cargo

18 limitations on a regional jet?

19 MR. ELLIS: Yes.

20 MR. CLIFFORD: All right. Now,

21 understandably, the regional jet carries less

22 cargo than a full mainline jet, but it is a


1 lot more than it is on a commuter airline, the

2 turboprop for example.

3 So there is two issues I guess

4 that we would have from Delta. One, it is

5 really not a cargo issue. We don't have many

6 cargo issues on regional jets. Number two,

7 regional jets are the mainstay of the airline

8 in a lot of major carriers in here. We've got

9 hundreds of them. I think we got 700 at last

10 count. That is our bread and butter.

11 And you say a commuter-type

12 aircraft. A regional jet is not a commuter

13 aircraft. They fly long routes. Some fly

14 1,500-mile routes. So you are mixing up --

15 you are mixing apples and oranges here, and I

16 think you are putting a bias in the system in

17 the evaluation criteria when regional jets are

18 a mainstay of this entire contract as we fly

19 it.

20 So I think that's a disadvantage,

21 and we totally disagree with the proposal.

22 MR. ELLIS: Okay. Your comments


1 will be surely taken under consideration.

2 The one thing that we have is

3 where we have 50- and 70-passenger RJs flying

4 in and out of cities that are traditionally

5 the gateway cities in and out of the military

6 installations, the cargo pits get maxed out of

7 B4 bags pretty rapidly.

8 And the problem is, when a person

9 is going TDY or even PCSing or going to a duty

10 station across the seas, and they have their

11 B4 bags or their flight bags if they are

12 aviation types or NBC bags if they are going

13 over to an area of conflict, they have to have

14 that go with them.

15 And our customers ask that we do

16 put consideration or more consideration on

17 full-type jets than regional-type jets that

18 have a limited capacity in the cargo pit for

19 their equipment.

20 MR. CLIFFORD: And just for the

21 record -- Delta Airlines -- we used to have

22 that problem about two years ago, specifically


1 in Norfolk. And I have not heard of one

2 problem with bags on regional jets in the last

3 two years. So I don't know where your

4 information or what basis it is coming from,

5 Jerry, but we have not seen that as any kind

6 of a problem. And we would have heard about

7 it operationally if we knew that, you know, if

8 it was happening.

9 MR. BILLONE: This is United

10 Airlines again. This proposal is not going to

11 change what servicing --

12 MR. ELLIS: No.

13 MR. BILLONE: -- an airplane. I

14 mean, if only regional jets are servicing an

15 airport, this really doesn't affect them.

16 What it does do is when there is a carrier

17 flying only mainline -- what we call mainline

18 jets into an area, this is going to bias your

19 program toward them. That is our position.

20 MR. ELLIS: Is there anybody from

21 DoD that would like to make a comment?

22 (No response)


1 Okay. Let's talk a little bit

2 about the activity reporting -- in other

3 words, the dual fare reporting. Just a few

4 reminders. Most of you are doing a very good

5 job about sending the reports in. Some of

6 them are a little bit more timely than others,

7 and we sincerely appreciate it, because it is

8 showing the actual value of the dual fare

9 program, both for the government passenger,

10 but also for the airlines, where you are able

11 to regulate and capacity control some of these

12 contract fares.

13 One thing that I would like to

14 advise everybody about -- we have had a few

15 problems this year -- only include those

16 markets in this report in which you have bid

17 and won that market using dual fares. If you

18 do it with markets where you have only been in

19 the YCA level, obviously, it is going to be

20 100 percent YCA fare.

21 So it throws off our factors, and

22 it throws off our calculate -- as we are doing


1 the final calculations on how much we are

2 getting from capacity control fares and how

3 much on YCA fares.

4 For the FY10 contract, we saw a 56

5 percent usage overall for domestic markets,

6 which is up one percent over FY09, and

7 international markets, 51 percent for

8 international. It is down one percent,

9 because we saw more usage on the YCA fares.

10 However, as you see, both calculates are --

11 we're over 50 percent usage on our capacity

12 control fare, and that is moving up year by

13 year.

14 So our customers are becoming more

15 comfortable with the capacity control fare,

16 and the carriers are bidding this way, and,

17 you know, able to control some of the capacity

18 on their contract fares. So it's a win-win

19 situation.

20 Moving on to the market selection

21 for the FY12 contract -- again, we used two

22 areas. We used -- actually, three areas. We


1 used SmartPay and ARC data, and this came back

2 from -- we're always lagging by about a year

3 or so. This is the data we used, and it came

4 up from FY09. That is the historical data

5 that went all through -- also through modified

6 forms. We heard from our customers on the

7 markets they require, and to come up with the

8 market requirements for the FY12 contract.

9 So here is the final calculations

10 on that. We are soliciting 3,977 Group 1

11 markets. Group 1 domestic is 2,822. Group 1

12 international is 643. Group 1 extended

13 connection domestics are 102. Most of those

14 are out of Hawaii and Alaska. Given the

15 circumstances of the long haul, sometimes you

16 need a double connection to get to the east

17 coast. And then, a Group 1 extended

18 connection international are 410.

19 Group 2 markets, 2,750Domestic

20 markets and Group 2 international markets are

21 970. So we have a total domestic markets of

22 4,704, total international 2,023, for a total


1 markets of 6,727.

2 Yes, Denny?

3 MR. CLIFFORD: Jerry, wasn't there

4 6,000 last year about?

5 MR. ELLIS: Last year it was

6 6,500. We are about 190 markets more than we

7 solicited last year.

8 MR. CLIFFORD: And where did most

9 of those come from, do you think?

10 MR. ELLIS: International,

11 especially in the interior into Asia, Middle

12 East, and Western Africa, and Middle Eastern

13 countries quite a bit.

14 MR. CLIFFORD: EC markets?

15 MR. ELLIS: Yes. The extended

16 connection markets actually jumped from like

17 283 to 410. I don't know whether you would

18 like a breakdown of the A, B, C, D markets. I

19 don't -- do you want to know how many A, B,

20 and C, D markets there are? Yes? No?

21 MR. CLIFFORD: Only if there's a

22 big difference in --


1 MR. ELLIS: No. It has stayed

2 pretty steady. I think we see a lot more A

3 markets this year. We have 57 A markets --

4 actually, 59 A markets this year, so we see

5 the numbers steadily increasing year or year.

6 Tom? Hang on just a sec.

7 MR. BILLONE: Tom Billone from

8 United. I want to -- I was looking through

9 the solicitation, and I need to go back to

10 your breakdown of 51 and 51 on domestic -- 51

11 percent, 51 percent.

12 One of the issues we brought up

13 last year -- 56, 51 -- one of the issues we

14 brought up last year was how you do the

15 composite -- how you figure the composite

16 fares, the price evaluations for Group 1 and

17 Group 2. Okay? And when we gave you figures,

18 it appears that in looking at the solicitation

19 you didn't change any of the evaluation

20 criteria of going on an international 64

21 percent, 34 percent, 36 percent.

22 But your own figures are showing


1 the by stated usage is in the fifties, which

2 is what we suggested you go back to, and you

3 evaluate evenly on the markets based on the

4 actual spread, not some theory that you've got

5 that this is most important, because obviously

6 the YCA on the international market isn't

7 being used 64 percent of the time.

8 I mean, so why was there no change

9 made in that composite figure? I'm curious,

10 especially when your own figures support what

11 we ask.

12 MR. ELLIS: The formula for the

13 calculate for the -- percentage for the

14 capacity control as opposed to the YCA fare

15 was never intended to be based on actual

16 usage, because that -- you know, as it started

17 out, you know, it was quite a bit of

18 difference.

19 And the one year that we did make

20 it closer, if you will, is that we saw some

21 airlines that would only bid a dollar

22 difference between their YCA and their


1 capacity control fare. And so it was -- the

2 determination was made that this should be a

3 reflection -- the difference of the amount,

4 the percentage, should be a reflection on

5 value to the government, what the value of

6 those seats are to the government.

7 And in this case, for domestic

8 markets, we placed more value on the capacity

9 control fare domestically, and in the

10 international markets we placed more value on

11 the less seat availability on international

12 flights.

13 MR. BILLONE: But then that -- the

14 revenue that you show --

15 MR. ELLIS: Wait a minute.

16 There's people who can't hear you.

17 MR. BILLONE: Oh.

18 MR. ELLIS: We have a lot of

19 people on the phone, and it's not fair to them

20 if you start --

21 MR. BILLONE: Well, what that for

22 the airlines is when you come out with the


1 results and you say, "X amount of awards in

2 this market equals this value," and you come

3 up with an estimated dollar figure, all right,

4 that is never going to happen, because you are

5 using an invalid set to come up with those

6 figures.

7 You're using a composite based on

8 the number of passengers. And if 64 percent

9 of your passengers are not using the higher

10 YCA fare, and you're evaluating that -- an

11 award on that 64 percent, that award is not

12 correct as far as the dollar value goes, as

13 what the carriers were sort of looking at and

14 saying, "Well, hey, we're expecting this kind

15 of money."

16 So when they do their evaluation

17 for the next year they go, "Well, gee, maybe

18 I'll just do a YCA, because I'm going to get

19 the same amount of money." And it ends up

20 hurting you guys. That's all I have to say.

21 MR. ELLIS: Okay. Any more

22 comments?


1 (No response)

2 Thank you very much.

3 Okay. Let's talk a little bit

4 about the website. Our website is -- again,

5 just to reiterate, is very proactive, as you

6 can go out there and find the answers to your

7 frequently asked questions. You can go out

8 there and actually do a much better job of

9 should cost estimate, because when you pull up

10 a fare in the fare shop on our website you can

11 then go out and click and see if there is a

12 fuel surcharge from that airline, and also

13 what the baggage charges are for the first

14 bag, second bag, and additional bags. So you

15 can do a much better job of your should cost

16 estimate.

17 One thing that I want to bring to

18 your attention that is a change on our website

19 as far as the baggage goes, industry has made

20 a recommendation, which we have followed. We

21 have put a caveat in there, or a disclaimer if

22 you will, about the military bag waiver.


1 Attention military members, the

2 waiver of the baggage fee charges for military

3 members, uniformed, may not be extended by the

4 U.S. codeshare partners operated by a foreign

5 flag carrier as the baggage rules of that

6 codeshare partner will apply. Military

7 members should ensure or be prepared to pay

8 for their bags should they be going on a

9 codeshare flight that is operated by a foreign

10 flag carrier rather than the host carrier.

11 So we just have put that

12 disclaimer in there just as a heads up to our

13 military members, even though that the free

14 baggage waiver allowance is not a City Pair

15 issue, we certainly want to keep our customers

16 as informed and intelligent as possible, so

17 they can be prepared to pay if they have to.

18 Are there any questions on that?

19 (No response)

20 Okay. I will leave this up for a

21 little while. These are your contacts with

22 the City Pair Program and the Program Office.


1 You can jot those down. And the rest of the

2 meeting will be conducted by our Program

3 Office. Vince or Gene, do you want to

4 facilitate the rest of this?

5 MR. LEE: Absolutely. Now --

6 MR. ELLIS: Wait for the

7 microphone. Wait for the microphone.

8 MR. LEE: Oh.

9 MR. ELLIS: Introduce yourself and

10 speak slowly.

11 MR. LEE: Hi, everybody. Thank

12 you so much. Wonderful job. We really

13 appreciate, always, your feedback.

14 A couple of issues that we wanted

15 to talk to you about from a Program Office

16 perspective. One had to do -- the airline

17 carriers have recently received a letter from

18 the Transportation Audits Division. We have

19 invited Annie Scott to address that issue. It

20 is not that big of a deal, but obviously I

21 will let Annie speak to it.

22 So, Annie, if you could please?


1 Thank you.

2 MS. SCOTT: Hi. My name is Annie

3 Scott, and I am the Branch Chief of the

4 Accounts and Collection Branch for

5 Transportation Audits. You did receive a

6 letter from us, and basically it's just to

7 inform you of some changes that we are going

8 to be making with our collection procedures.

9 As you know, the majority of the

10 airlines have 60 days to receive our notice of

11 overcharge and respond to that notice of

12 overcharge. And what we have been asking is

13 that once you receive our notice of

14 overcharge, and you review it, that if you

15 agree that our notice of overcharge was

16 correct you would pay us or you would protest

17 it.

18 And we are finding that this is

19 not happening. We have three years to collect

20 our notices of overcharge. And if -- once

21 they are not collected, we have to write them

22 off.


1 So, basically, what we were

2 wanting to let you know is that if you answer

3 the letter, and you agree that you are willing

4 to receive our notice of overcharge, we would

5 continue to give you the 60 days to review the

6 notice of overcharge, contact the TMCs or the

7 agency, and then decide whether or not you

8 wanted to pay it or you wanted to protest it.

9 If we do not receive a reply from

10 you, basically we are going to put you back to

11 the 30 days. So that after 30 days, if we

12 have not received your protest on our notice

13 of overcharge, we are going to try to start

14 collecting that, because the limitation we

15 have is that even after three years we cannot

16 do an internal offset.

17 Yes?

18 MR. BILLONE: This is Tom Billone.

19 Just a quick clarification on it, because

20 this is confusing to me. You normally take

21 the money out of the TICs, the TTUS. That's

22 how my accounting people are telling me to do


1 it. We never send you a TIC.

2 MS. SCOTT: Okay. Let me explain.

3 When you were using a lot of GTRs -- but

4 basically the GTRs have been restricted. So

5 now there is no longer any funds out there for

6 us to deduct from, and DFAS has not been doing

7 any deduction from it.

8 If you will check with your people

9 to see, if you are not using GTRs, and DFAS is

10 not collecting for us, then we are not getting

11 any money. You are basically holding those

12 overcharges that you know to be correct, and

13 some airlines are not protesting those

14 overcharges that they have question with.

15 That is the problem is that we are

16 no longer at this time able to collect through

17 DFAS. We are working on it, but right now we

18 have not been able, unless you are processing

19 GTRs, and not too many airlines are really

20 using GTRs anymore.

21 MR. CLIFFORD: Just so you know,

22 we had something like 500 to 1,000 GTRs a


1 month just out of Kuwait. I don't know if

2 you've got that problem, Tom, but that's one

3 -- the one place in the world that GTRs are

4 used more than anywhere. So would you -- if

5 that's the case, would you take the funds away

6 from those GTRs?

7 MR. AQUILINO: Folks on the phone,

8 can you hear this?

9 MS. SCOTT: This is Annie Scott.

10 MR. AQUILINO: Hold on, Annie,

11 just a sec. The airlines on the phone, can

12 you hear this conversation?

13 MR. COYLE: Yes.

14 MR. AQUILINO: Everybody good?

15 MR. COYLE: If everybody could put

16 their phone on mute when they're not talking,

17 because there is some background noise.

18 MR. AQUILINO: Thank you, George.

19 Thank you. If everyone would put their phone

20 on mute if they're not going to speak. If you

21 are going to speak, just let me know and I'll

22 let the folks here in the room know you plan


1 to ask a question, and we'll get those from

2 you airlines on the phones.

3 Thanks.

4 MS. SCOTT: DFAS went over to a

5 new system, and right now they are not able to

6 do any deductions for us. So until we get --

7 and that is the problem. For the past couple

8 of years we haven't -- they have not been able

9 to do a deduction for us, so we are not

10 getting any money.

11 So basically, yes, you are paying

12 -- you know, we are being paid for GTRs, but

13 we can't do any deductions. So that was the

14 issue is that we can't get any money through

15 GTRs right now.

16 MR. CLIFFORD: Now, if we wanted

17 to protest, would we have to do it within the

18 60-day window?

19 MS. SCOTT: Yes.

20 MR. CLIFFORD: Has it always been

21 that way?

22 MS. SCOTT: Yes.


1 MR. CLIFFORD: Okay.

2 MS. SCOTT: If an airline has a

3 problem, you can always come into us, and we

4 can discuss if you need additional time, and,

5 you know, we are open to that as long as you

6 agree that once we give you that additional

7 time you are going to either pay us or you are

8 going to protest it.

9 MR. CLIFFORD: Can you just tell

10 us, industry wide, what your level of

11 overcharges is versus, let's say, a year or

12 two ago?

13 MS. SCOTT: Actually, right now

14 that -- we changed it over to the new SmartPay

15 card, and really we have not been -- we have

16 not been able to get the data. The SmartPay

17 banks have had a problem in providing us with

18 that data, so you probably have not received a

19 lot of overcharges from us, because we have

20 not been able to get the data from them. So

21 we are still working with them to provide us

22 with that data, so we can get up and start


1 auditing again.

2 MR. CLIFFORD: That's okay.

3 MS. SCOTT: I know it's okay.

4 (Laughter)

5 MR. BILLONE: This is Tom again.

6 I want to thank you for clarifying that,

7 because the memo I saw was very confusing. It

8 basically said you have 30 days to respond,

9 and if you didn't respond we were taking the

10 money and we were going to collections and --

11 which kind of freaked out our Accounting

12 Department.

13 So I appreciate your clarifying

14 that. I really do. Thank you.

15 MS. SCOTT: Any other questions?

16 MR. AQUILINO: All right. George

17 Coyle has a question. Go ahead, George.

18 MR. COYLE: Annie, is there a plan

19 to go to an electronic format, or would these

20 NOCs actually go out in U.S. mail, you know,

21 hard copies?

22 MR. AQUILINO: Is there a plan to


1 go to an electronic format? Or will it still

2 go out in hard copy?

3 MR. COYLE: For NOCs.

4 MS. SCOTT: Right now, our notices

5 of overcharges are required to go by U.S.

6 mail. We are looking at some time in the

7 future -- I won't say near future, because

8 right now it is required that -- through Legal

9 that we do do it by U.S. mail. But, as you

10 know, you can protest via e-mail. We have an

11 e-mail box that you can send your protest in

12 to, and that makes it much easier for us to

13 handle and get it protested into the system.

14 MR. AQUILINO: George, did you

15 hear that?

16 MR. COYLE: Yes, I did.

17 MR. AQUILINO: All right. Thanks,

18 George.

19 Anyone else on the phone?

20 (No response)

21 Okay. Thank you.

22 MR. LEE: Okay. Well, the other


1 issue we wanted to raise from the Program

2 Management Office was we are seeing that there

3 are some problems when our military members

4 check in at the kiosk, and I want to invite

5 the Air Mobility Command to speak to that, if

6 he will, please. Thank you. Kevin?

7 MR. SASIEH: This is Kevin Sasieh,

8 Air Mobility Command. We've gotten some

9 information that military members have gotten

10 -- whatever airline that they're using,

11 they're going to get the three bags. We

12 understand that.

13 What is happening is, is that when

14 they go to check in at a kiosk, they are --

15 you know, the kiosk asks them how many bags

16 they want to check. And when they put in two

17 or three or whatever it is, they wind up

18 getting charged instead of getting the waiver

19 that the airline is offering when they check

20 in that way.

21 What we want to know from the

22 carriers is, is there a way -- do the kiosks


1 out there have a way to identify whether or

2 not the passengers are military beforehand,

3 and what their procedures would be?

4 MR. AQUILINO: Any of the airlines

5 want to take a shot at that? Tom, why don't

6 you lead us off on that.

7 MR. BILLONE: Okay. This is Tom

8 with United. I have talked to my airport

9 operations people about this, and they say

10 that there's no way we can do it at the kiosk

11 unless we go through this massive

12 reprogramming expense.

13 So, unfortunately, the members

14 would have to go -- and they can, you know, go

15 to the united.com check-in line where they can

16 get their bags cleared rather than the check-

17 in, because there is no way for us -- you

18 could put in you are a military member, and --

19 but there's no way for us to track that.

20 So if someone says, "Oh, yes, I'm

21 a military member," boom, and they get away,

22 and they go and, you know, get away with free


1 bags. So, unfortunately --

2 MR. CLIFFORD: Yes. Delta's kiosk

3 -- we prompt them if you're military or not.

4 And if you check yes, then you have to go to

5 the counter and get your clearance, and that's

6 where it's authorized. That's our process.

7 MR. AQUILINO: Anybody on the

8 phone want to talk to the issue of military

9 members going to the kiosk and not being

10 recognized as having the three-bag capability?

11 George, do you have anything you want to say

12 on that?

13 MR. COYLE: No. Actually, ours is

14 very similar to the other legacies, in that

15 they would show their active duty military

16 card to get that waiver. So they would have

17 to check in at the counter and show that ID.

18 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. Thanks very

19 much, George.

20 Anyone else out there that wants

21 to discuss that, or have the capability to

22 discriminate the customer at the kiosk?


1 MR. GAMMON: (Off mic comment.)

2 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I

3 can't hear him.

4 MR. ELLIS: That was US Airways.

5 MR. AQUILINO: All right, Chris.

6 Thanks a lot. We appreciate it.

7 Anyone else?

8 (No response)

9 Thank you.

10 MR. LEE: Okay. Well, most

11 importantly, we wanted to -- we want to thank

12 our carriers for their comments. We

13 appreciate our agencies and customers coming

14 to assist us in these meetings. The carriers

15 -- we certainly appreciate your participation

16 and your continued partnership in this entire

17 program. So we appreciate it.

18 With that, what we will do is we

19 will open up the floor to any problems you

20 want to discuss. And, obviously, this is

21 opening the flood gate, but -- Tom?

22 MR. BILLONE: When will we get a


1 finalized copy?

2 MR. LEE: The transcript copy will

3 be posted --

4 MR. BILLONE: No, not the

5 transcript, but this -- when are we going to

6 get the final solicitation?

7 MS. JAREMBACK: Within about three

8 weeks.

9 MR. BILLONE: We need it way

10 before three weeks, because I have to send it

11 to my headquarters management people. There's

12 a new evaluation that was included, and it may

13 have --

14 MS. JAREMBACK: Is that on --

15 MR. BILLONE: I'm talking about

16 the proposed language for the evaluation of

17 the regional jets. I can't wait three weeks

18 to get that. I need that like ASAP, because I

19 have to send that to headquarters for review.

20 It may -- I'm not saying it is, but it may

21 have an impact on how we approach this whole

22 thing.


1 MS. SISSON: Is there any changes

2 on the markets from the draft to the final, or

3 the markets are final?

4 MR. ELLIS: It's largely --

5 consider the markets are final.

6 MS. SISSON: Okay.

7 MR. AQUILINO: Did everyone hear

8 that? As far as we are concerned, the markets

9 are final.

10 MR. COYLE: Got it.

11 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. Does anybody

12 on the phone have any questions?

13 MR. LEE: Questions from the

14 phone.

15 MR. SENTER: This is Cliff from

16 Hawaiian Airlines. Just a question based on

17 Tom's comments earlier, the weighting used

18 between a YCA and a Class 3 controlled fare.

19 You know, at Hawaiian Airlines we are in

20 agreement with the comment that Tom made, but

21 do we foresee any changes in the weighting

22 used based on the concerns that were brought


1 up on this call? Or are we going to keep them

2 the way they are in the draft that was sent

3 out?

4 MS. JAREMBACK: For FY12, they

5 will stay as they are in the draft. This is

6 something we can talk about in the future --

7 for future procurements. It could be an open

8 dialogue for a future meeting. Some of the

9 things that Gene is going to be talking about

10 happening in the future, you can probably --

11 you can bring them up at those situations, and

12 we will discuss them for future procurements.

13 But for this one, it will stay as stated in

14 the draft.

15 And just -- you know, as to what

16 Tom said about the draft being released in

17 three weeks, or the final, it probably still

18 will be three weeks. We have our own internal

19 reviews. I --

20 MR. BILLONE: Should I, then,

21 assume that that language is going to be

22 included in the final?


1 MS. JAREMBACK: Don't assume

2 anything. We can have still -- we can have

3 discussions. Whatever we talk about -- if you

4 have concerns, anybody in the room, if you

5 have concerns about the language, shoot us an

6 e-mail, and then we will talk about it. We

7 will put some more language together to see if

8 we can come up with a mutually beneficial

9 response, and it will go out to the entire

10 airline community.

11 But this is -- it's proposed.

12 That's why we have brought it up here. It's

13 not -- I'm not saying that it's going to be in

14 the final. It's just proposed, something we

15 were thinking about and wanting to take your

16 pulse on it and see what you thought about it.

17 Anybody else?

18 MR. CLIFFORD: Delta just has one

19 issue -- ticket time limits. Shouldn't be any

20 surprise to anybody. As background, I sent

21 the GSA a letter with --

22 MR. LEE: Today.


1 MR. CLIFFORD: Today.

2 MR. LEE: Sent it today.

3 MR. CLIFFORD: Today. But you had

4 the statistics back in, what, January 12th,

5 okay? The stats that you have been asking for

6 you had January 12th. Those statistics showed

7 the percentages by day going out 180 days, or

8 whatever, of when somebody cancels a trip from

9 the time of booking. It also had a separate

10 chart that basically said, for about the same

11 period of time every day, what percentage of

12 passengers cancel how many days out.

13 All right. With that data, we are

14 suggesting that there be a -- definitely be a

15 ticket time limit. We've got way too much

16 spoilage, and we talked about this at the

17 industry meeting in December. I think it was

18 in December. And I think several people who

19 are in this room today and on the phone were

20 in support of the ticket time limit. We've

21 got way too much spoilage. We're losing way

22 too much revenue.


1 It seems to me that if the

2 commercial business is like -- there is

3 nothing like it. We have for our commercial

4 customers a 24-hour ticket time limit. Okay?

5 That covers the vast, vast majority of all of

6 our commercial traffic. The only ones that

7 aren't covered are the real high end, less

8 seat availability, YO type fares. Okay?

9 So our proposal is this -- and the

10 terms of this can change, you know, we can

11 talk about it, whatever, but something along

12 this construct -- that we are offering up and

13 proposing that a 10-day ticket time limit from

14 the time of booking until the time it is

15 ticketed. You have to ticket within 10 days.

16 If it's within seven days out from departure,

17 you are on a 24-hour clock, because we can't

18 sell them, we can't sell those seats.

19 And I'm not going to go to the

20 stats. You have the stats. Some of that is

21 proprietary information. You know what those

22 numbers are, and that's what we're


1 recommending, that's what we're suggesting

2 that we do.

3 We have got to somehow correlate

4 this program to what we do for our commercial

5 traffic, and that is with ticket time limits.

6 MR. LEE: As I pointed out, we

7 just got the data this morning. I was not

8 aware of it being submitted in December, to be

9 honest with you. But --

10 MR. CLIFFORD: I'm sorry, January.

11 January 12th.

12 MR. LEE: January 12th. And so

13 far we have one carrier's statement. We need

14 -- we will need more than that.

15 MR. CLIFFORD: Well, we've a few

16 weeks -- three weeks. We'll look at it.

17 MR. LEE: We will look at it. We

18 have never said that we will not look at it,

19 but --

20 MR. CLIFFORD: Well, this was

21 keyed up in December. Everybody knows that,

22 right?


1 MR. HAAG: Jeff Haag with

2 Southwest Airlines. I just want to agree with

3 Denny. We are working on a similar analysis

4 that we will forward on to you all when it's

5 done. But ticketing time limits definitely,

6 as they are outlined today, result in a loss

7 of revenue for Southwest and probably all of

8 the other carriers, and it's something that we

9 feel pretty passionately about needing to

10 change.

11 So we will forward the data to

12 you, and hopefully we can continue our

13 conversations for a change in the short term.

14 MR. CLIFFORD: Yes. I want to add

15 one thing. You know, you looked at this two

16 years ago. I think it was for FY09, maybe

17 FY10. And you did the financial analysis, and

18 the result came back that the GSA rejected

19 this concept.

20 The difference between then and

21 now, we've got the data, and it's very

22 succinct, it's very accurate, and I think


1 knowing that you've got that data, the

2 questions can't be asked any longer, "Well,

3 give us the proof," because that is the proof.

4 And hopefully other carriers can -- Jeff,

5 thank you for your support, but hopefully

6 other people will have, you know, similar data

7 or at least their own data to be able to

8 support this. But the bottom line is we need

9 to have it.

10 MR. LEE: We appreciate your --

11 some of you did, obviously, but we need to --

12 MR. BILLONE: This is Tom Billone

13 from United Airlines. Right now, our ability

14 to get you that kind of data is very

15 difficult, since we are merging systems with

16 Continental Airlines. And I can't get reports

17 myself, so it -- until we get all ironed out

18 what we're going to do.

19 However, an issue came up today --

20 and Jerry Ellis is fully aware of it -- is all

21 of our fares require a three-day advance

22 purchase. All right? So all our fares are


1 somewhat restricted in that they require an

2 advance purchase.

3 The contract states that if we

4 have a similar fare, it needs to be lower than

5 the commercial fare. We'll call it a non-

6 restricted commercial fare. Well, all we have

7 now are YCA fare being higher than a YUA, but

8 the YUA has a three-day advance purchase on

9 it.

10 So we are being told we have to

11 lower our fare, but we -- but, really, we

12 don't have the non-restricted fare to lower it

13 to. So this is -- if you put an advance

14 purchase requirement in there, then that

15 levels the playing field, since all of our

16 fares require advance purchase. All right?

17 It used to be the YUA fare would

18 -- except for the F and the C fares are -- or

19 the J fares, now the business class fares. So

20 it kind of really -- without taking the time

21 limit that we are using on all of our fares on

22 the commercial side, it kind of rolls into


1 your contract, because there is no comparison

2 between what's a non-restricted fare and a

3 restricted fare, because we don't have the

4 restricted fares anymore. So how do we make

5 that market price comparison?

6 Did I confuse everybody? I hope

7 so. No.

8 (Laughter)

9 MR. AQUILINO: Does anybody on the

10 phone have a comment on restricted fares?

11 MR. COYLE: Yes. This is George

12 with American. It is something we are working

13 on as well. We just haven't been able to get

14 our arms around the data to share it. We have

15 always been in support of having a time limit.

16 MR. AQUILINO: Okay, George.

17 Anyone else?

18 MS. CAVOS: Frontier would support

19 a time limit of some sort as well.

20 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. Say that

21 again? I'm sorry.

22 MR. SENTER: This is Cliff with


1 Hawaiian Airlines. We would also support a

2 ticket time limit.

3 MR. AQUILINO: All right, Cliff.

4 Thanks very much.

5 MR. GAMMON: Me too, guys.

6 MR. AQUILINO: Chris, is that you

7 at US Airways? Okay. So you are going to

8 support -- you support a ticketing time limit.

9 MR. GAMMON: Yes.

10 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. Thanks.

11 Anyone else?

12 (No response)

13 Thanks very much.

14 MR. LEE: Okay. Well, the

15 carriers that have supported it, you know, we

16 appreciate your voicing your opinion. We need

17 your data, though. Give us the data, please.

18 MR. BILLONE: Well, your data

19 shows three days. That's your own data. So

20 why -- I mean, your own data shows that three

21 days is when you purchase your tickets. So I

22 don't know what the pushback is. We don't


1 know if there's pushback.

2 MR. AQUILINO: It's not

3 necessarily pushback. We just need the data.

4 MR. BILLONE: You've got it.

5 You've got your own data.

6 MR. AQUILINO: I understand.

7 Okay. We have our own data. We have numbers

8 of when we buy tickets.

9 MR. BILLONE: Right.

10 MR. AQUILINO: We understand that.

11 We have also heard in this forum that you are

12 interested in ticketing time limits. Delta is

13 interested, you're interested, and we heard

14 from the other airlines. So it's something

15 that now is on our radar screen, and we

16 actually have to, once again, put together the

17 impact to the government on advance tickets.

18 Yes, we know we ticket, so we do our -- we are

19 able to do that. I mean, that's what we want

20 to do to cut down unused tickets.

21 And then, we had problems with

22 unused tickets, because then they could be


1 cancelled and not be unused tickets, but just

2 a cancelled ticket. So there's implications

3 for that. So now we ticket 10 days after we

4 make the reservation, and the mission goes

5 away, and we have to cancel the ticket.

6 And how long does it take for us

7 to get a refund, and what the process is, and

8 how long it takes to get that money back into

9 the coffers, and we are talking about the

10 government, you know, lots of tickets, and

11 that adds to lots of money.

12 So that was one of the concerns we

13 had. That is what Jerry BrisTOW talked to

14 this forum about the last time ticketing time

15 limits came up, and what it would cost the

16 government in that study to do a seven-day

17 ticketing time limit.

18 So now I'm hearing from Delta a

19 10-day time limit from the date that I guess

20 you make the reservation -- I don't want to

21 misstate that -- or within seven days, a 24-

22 hour time period. And I'm hearing from United


1 a three-day -- a 72-hour ticketing time limit.

2 MR. BILLONE: Well, I'm going to

3 say that there has got to be a compromise here

4 somewhere. You know, it can't be just one way

5 or the other.

6 MR. AQUILINO: And all I'm saying

7 to you, Tom, is that, okay, now it's back on

8 the table once again. We have data from Delta

9 Airlines. We hear that others have a problem

10 providing that data. We have our own internal

11 data. We will once again look at that, look

12 at the impact on the government, look at the

13 impact on the airlines, and see if we can come

14 to some sort of mutually agreeable solution.

15 Andrea?


17 Defense Travel Management Office. I just have

18 one request. While we're looking at this, we

19 also need to have the airlines help support

20 methods in order for us to process unused

21 tickets for our carriers as well as on our

22 carriers, because if we do impose ticketing


1 time limits, there will be an increase in

2 unused tickets, and we, for the DoD, are

3 trying to put processes in place to be able to

4 process unused tickets. And sometimes that is

5 a problem.

6 MR. AQUILINO: Thanks, Andrea.

7 MR. CLIFFORD: To your point,

8 Andrea -- and I think we were asked recently

9 by the government about, you know, unused

10 tickets. Our position is that that is not an

11 airline issue. We are not to build the

12 processes to keep track of and to basically

13 sit over the unused ticket issue. That is a

14 system that every passenger is responsible

15 for. So pushing those back on the airlines is

16 not going to work. That is an individual

17 decision.

18 Now, having said that, I have got

19 one question for everybody here in the room

20 and also on the phone. There are -- as I

21 reported, I think there is 11 airlines

22 represented, maybe a dozen, both here and in


1 Crystal City as well as --

2 MR. AQUILINO: There are 13 now.

3 MR. CLIFFORD: Thirteen airlines

4 on the phone? Can I ask this question: does

5 any airline not agree with some term that has

6 ticket time limits in it, the concept of

7 ticket time limits? Does any airline, of the

8 13 represented here, not want ticket time

9 limits?

10 (No response)

11 Nobody in the room here has spoken

12 up. I don't know if everybody on the phone --

13 I want to get a count here, of all 13

14 airlines, who disagrees with the concept of

15 having ticket time limits? And I will wait

16 for an answer.

17 MR. AQUILINO: Let's say

18 internally, in the room, does anybody have any

19 problem with that?

20 MR. CLIFFORD: We've got

21 Southwest, we've got United, and Delta

22 represented in the room, right? Did I miss


1 anybody?


3 phone would have any objection to some

4 language regarding time limits?

5 MR. McMAHON: This is Kevin

6 McMahon, Airtran. I don't have an objection

7 necessarily, but we would -- we really need to

8 see what the -- and I think that if there is a

9 ticketing time limit, it needs to be

10 accompanied by a change in the evaluation

11 criteria between that CA and the YCA fare,

12 which is something that I already talked about

13 today.

14 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. That was

15 Airtran, and they were saying that they -- on

16 the face of it -- on the face of it, they are

17 saying that they don't have any -- they would

18 like to see exactly what that language was

19 with regard to the time limits. But they also

20 wanted to ensure that there was some

21 discussion about the breakdown of the fare,

22 75/25, and 66/34, along with that. So that


1 factor they would want to go over.

2 MR. LEE: I will address Tom's

3 concern earlier that the government has data.

4 You said that if we booked 72 hours out,

5 that's correct, but that is on the back end.

6 What I believe Denny is requesting are the

7 front end -- booking the ticket, correct?

8 MR. CLIFFORD: Well, we are

9 willing to look at all of it. What we are

10 trying to do is reduce spoilage. Tom's

11 concept of advance ticketing, you know, the

12 whole ticket time limit issue, we just need

13 the parameters around which we reduce the

14 spoilage. You can't have empty seats out

15 there not being sold, and that's the whole

16 issue.

17 You know, the details of how that

18 would be put together, we can talk about that.

19 That is all negotiable, and we can compromise

20 and whatever.

21 Now, based on the straw mode here,

22 you've got 13 airlines, with Airtran's caveat,


1 with what their representative just said,

2 you've got 13 airlines that agreed to have

3 ticket time limits. Why would the GSA not

4 want to have some construct to do a ticket

5 time limit in its FY12 contract?

6 The entire population of people

7 that bid on this contract have said, "Yes, we

8 need it." How can you say no? If this is a

9 partnership.

10 MR. LEE: It is a partnership.

11 We're not saying no. However, we need -- we

12 need data, and you are the first that has

13 provided us that data. You've got to give us

14 time to process that data. And we have

15 internal government data as well, but whatever

16 data that can be provided, we will look into

17 it, absolutely.

18 And, again, at this point, we'll

19 address it, and I do believe that it has to be

20 in conjunction -- we have to have a refund

21 clause as well.

22 MR. CLIFFORD: All right, Gene,


1 but I've got to say this. And it applied two

2 years ago when you guys looked at this. You

3 wanted the data, you kept asking us for the

4 data. We didn't have the systems last time to

5 give you much data. Now, Delta at least has a

6 system, Southwest has a system. Why do you

7 have to have that data? What is it that you

8 are missing that is going to enter into the

9 analysis that you put forth to make the

10 decision?

11 I mean, intuitively -- and we took

12 -- we said this two years ago. Even if you

13 didn't have any data, the rest of the world is

14 on ticket time limits. Everybody, as I said,

15 except that high end fare, which is a couple

16 percent of our business. Okay? Everybody is

17 on some kind of parameter of a ticket time

18 limit or an advance purchase.

19 Why is the GSA so reluctant to go

20 that route? Regardless of whether you have

21 stats or not. What are the stats going to

22 tell you? We can give you the detailed stats.


1 Maybe we can formulate some things. But the

2 fact that other carriers don't give you

3 statistics and the data, why is that going to

4 change your decision? This is a yes or no

5 kind of deal.

6 As far as the terms, we can figure

7 out how that will work. But for the life of

8 me, I still -- in the last two years I cannot

9 figure out why the statistics that we are

10 talking about here is so paramount to your

11 decision when 13 carriers have said, "We need

12 it."

13 MR. AQUILINO: Gene?

14 MR. LEE: Let Jerry go first, and

15 the I will chip in as well.

16 MR. ELLIS: Your point is very

17 well taken. Jerry Ellis, GSA. Your point is

18 very well taken. But you have to remember

19 that it's not just GSA. GSA is the

20 contracting conduit for over 100 governmental

21 agencies. We are representing the entire

22 Federal Government. And for us to make a


1 fundamental change to this contract, we can't

2 do it in a vacuum. We can't do it

3 unilaterally.

4 We have to make a business case to

5 our senior management. Our senior management

6 has to make it to the senior management of

7 Department of Defense, Department of Commerce,

8 State Department, NASA, ad infinitum. And

9 just as we did with the fuel surcharges, which

10 we got excellent data from the carrier

11 industry, we were able to make a business

12 case.

13 Right now, we have one carrier

14 that is providing us with data. We did a

15 report that we did with data that showed

16 somewhat different. Now, if other carriers

17 and a multitude of the carriers can give us

18 data that we can build a business case, we

19 would probably support that. But we cannot do

20 it on hearsay, supposition, and, you know,

21 "The carriers want it," because we have over

22 100 agencies who said, "We don't want it."


1 So, again, it's not just GSA. We

2 are representing the entire Federal Government

3 here.

4 MR. LEE: What Jerry just said. I

5 couldn't have said it better myself.

6 MR. BILLONE: This is Tom Billone.

7 Please don't take any inference from what I'm

8 about to say. Who is going to get the blame

9 when carriers pull out of this program? Is it

10 going to be individual departments, or is it

11 going to be GSA?

12 That's what you've got to start

13 thinking about, because there are certain

14 things that are coming down that I am looking

15 at here that are like real scary for the

16 airlines. And I could see multiple airlines

17 saying, "We don't want to deal with this."

18 You know, we know -- this is a

19 voluntary process. Every carrier is in this

20 based on a voluntary participation in this

21 program. They're not forced into it. Once

22 you start putting things in here, like if you


1 put in requirements to track unused tickets

2 and automatically refund after a year and one

3 day, that's not going to happen. So if that's

4 part of the contract, I'll guarantee you every

5 carrier -- I won't get a fee, I'll just take a

6 statement. The carriers are going to tell

7 you, no, we don't want to do that. We can't

8 do it. There's no way we can do it.

9 So, and why does that happen? If

10 you put that in the contract, and it's

11 something that people can't do, they're not

12 going to participate. You really have to be

13 careful about what you're doing here, because

14 this program is starting to fall apart.

15 You can see it year by year, we

16 try to put bandaids on it, and try to do

17 different things, and you guys keep adding

18 things in there, and we're going to change the

19 evaluation criteria to RJs at 100 seats or

20 less, and now, you know, we're not going to

21 change the splits, even though we've shown the

22 splits to be what they are. Totally different


1 than what you have, and we requested that

2 eight months in a meeting after the last bid.

3 So, you know, this is -- it's like

4 we talk -- and we're going back to the days

5 where you're not listening anymore. You're

6 listening, but you're not doing anything. You

7 just disregard what we say. And this is the

8 way it was about four years ago where we had

9 real problems with this program, and every

10 time we mentioned something to GSA it was,

11 yeah, and it was specifically said to me,

12 "Well, we listened to you."

13 Yes, but you don't do anything.

14 You listen, but it's like, "Okay, we'll listen

15 to you and that's it." I've got news for you.

16 This is a different day and a different game

17 with these airlines -- with our airlines. And

18 our airlines are looking at this and

19 wondering, is this really something we want to

20 do?

21 I don't care if I make $700

22 million. If it's costing me $700 million to


1 participate in this program, then it's a wash.

2 So we really have to get together. This is

3 supposed to be a partnership, and I'm not

4 seeing the partnership, and I'm not feeling

5 the love. That's it.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. LEE: What do I say to

8 something like that? We will take all

9 opinions under consideration.

10 MR. BILLONE: Okay. Well, just --

11 MR. LEE: I will reiterate that.

12 MR. BILLONE: We've heard that in

13 the past.

14 MR. LEE: I will reiterate that

15 GSA's job is to protect the entire

16 government's business, and that is what we are

17 charged with. So exactly what you're saying,

18 we have to coordinate multiple interests. And

19 it takes time.

20 But we have made tremendous

21 progress in the spirit of partnership. You

22 cannot deny that. Fuel surcharges, groups,


1 baggage fees -- we have --

2 MR. AQUILINO: Cost reimbursable

3 contracts.

4 MR. LEE: There you go.

5 MR. BILLONE: Yes. How many

6 years? Thirty years. Thirty years. You need

7 a new program. I mean, that's it. This

8 solicitation just doesn't work anymore.

9 MR. LEE: Duly noted. Okay. I

10 appreciate what you're saying, trust me. And

11 we don't just take these lightly, obviously.

12 Again, as I said in my opening part,

13 partnership, I mean your participation is

14 critical, without your participation we would

15 not have a program.

16 Any other comments?

17 MR. CLIFFORD: This is not so much

18 a comment, but I notice the folks from the

19 West Coast, right, that we talked about the

20 phone, I think you approached all the other

21 elements regarding changes to the contract.

22 Is that -- I don't want to throw the agenda


1 off kilter here, but are you folks going to be

2 presenting anything, or are you just here

3 mainly to listen to the input that we are

4 providing?

5 MS. CORPUS: We're here to observe.

6 MR. CLIFFORD: What time do we go

7 to dinner?

8 (Laughter)

9 Was that for FY -- that was future

10 -- is that FY12, or is that '13 or '18, or

11 what were we talking about? Was that -- were

12 the questions asked primarily for future

13 beyond FY12, or FY12?

14 MR. CLIFFORD: Denny Clifford, to

15 the OIG group here, GSA's OIG group, you may

16 have had conversations with.

17 MR. CLIFFORD: This year for FY12,

18 okay. Well, you've heard a lot today, but we

19 can also sit down and talk. Okay. I just

20 want to -- I just didn't know what the process

21 was here as far as their input and where we go

22 next.


1 MR. CLIFFORD: And since I have

2 the mic, I might as well say this, because I

3 was thinking about it. We have reduced

4 capacity. The airline industry has reduced

5 capacity for a number of reasons. Okay? But,

6 collectively, we have pretty much reduced

7 capacity, which means what? You are vying --

8 that military government passenger is vying

9 for 30 other sectors of business for that same

10 seat.

11 And tagging on to some of the

12 things that Tom was saying, that is a main

13 issue here that you need to consider in a big

14 way, because you're not -- you know, we can

15 make money by other avenues and other sectors.

16 And is this business -- is this business

17 consistent? Yes. But there are also a lot

18 higher yielding businesses out there in the

19 same sector vying for that same seat.

20 And when you are deliberating on

21 whether we are going to have ticket time

22 limits or not, you can't ignore that.


1 MR. LEE: We never do that, but we

2 are still the single biggest buyer of your

3 airline tickets. Even though we only amount

4 for 2 percent, as a total corporation, it is

5 still the biggest buyer of your airline

6 tickets.

7 So now, again, having said that,

8 any other comments, questions, from our

9 industry customers?

10 MR. SASIEH: Kevin Sasieh again

11 from AMC. One of the issues that was brought

12 up was military working dogs, and I would just

13 like to address this to the airlines. We are

14 still seeing some issues with trying to get

15 our military working dogs on the aircraft.

16 They show up, and, for whatever reason, the

17 passenger service agents won't allow the dog

18 on. And I know this is something that was

19 brought up to ATF as well back in November.

20 We just like to know what we need to do to

21 make sure we get these dogs moved.

22 MR. BILLONE: Kevin, in


1 particular, is there a problem with United?

2 MR. SASIEH: Yes, we have -- we

3 have gotten a couple of stories from our Air

4 Force military working dog functional manager

5 at the Pentagon. He is reluctant to give

6 specific airline names, of course, because of

7 -- I can provide the stories, if you'd like.

8 MR. BILLONE: You've got to have a

9 specific airline. Otherwise, we can't --

10 MR. SASIEH: Right.

11 MR. BILLONE: -- attack the

12 problem.

13 MR. SASIEH: Right. I understand

14 that.

15 MR. BILLONE: If we could get

16 them, I'd appreciate it.

17 MR. SASIEH: Okay.

18 MR. BILLONE: Even if it's -- you

19 know, if it's us, great. If it's Delta,

20 that's even better.

21 (Laughter)

22 MR. SASIEH: Right. We'll just go


1 back, and I'll ask him to -- because I'm not

2 even sure he has it, you know, if we can find

3 out what that information is.

4 Thank you.

5 MR. JOHNSON: Actually, I have a

6 question I guess. Jay Johnson, U.S. TRANSCOM.

7 I guess this is to Kristen. Any idea on when

8 FY12 contract will actually be solicited and

9 awarded?

10 MS. JAREMBACK: Kristen Jaremback,

11 GSA. The final solicitation should go out in

12 about three weeks, and I cannot comment on

13 award. We -- I can't say the exact time, the

14 exact timeframe, but before October 1st next

15 year.

16 MR. LEE: Any other issues?

17 MS. CARLOCK: I have a question.

18 Andrea Carlock, Defense Travel Management

19 Office. With the threat from some of the

20 airlines to not allow their inventory to be

21 displayed in the global distribution systems,

22 is GSA looking at making any changes to the


1 contract to accommodate that being a

2 requirement, to be able to be displayed in the

3 global distribution systems?

4 MR. AQUILINO: The contract

5 currently states that we will -- that the

6 airlines will publish their fares, and we will

7 get those fares in whatever -- however they do

8 it, whether they do it on their own website or

9 they do it in a GDS, or what have you. So

10 that's how the contract currently states.

11 Now, I think that we are going to

12 -- the issue with the GDS is in American

13 Airlines.

14 MS. CARLOCK: I didn't say --

15 MR. AQUILINO: I know, I am. I'm

16 saying that. But currently we have that in

17 the contract, and I think the CTO contracts

18 say that you are to return the fares for the

19 government, you'll return the fares. That

20 means that the CTOs that have to go out and

21 find those fares and return them, that's a

22 requirement. They have the capability, the


1 technical capability to do that.

2 If they're on SABRE, well, they --

3 and the fares might not be in the SABRE, let's

4 say, but in some other GDS, well, they can go

5 and get that other GDS and return the fare.

6 Now, if that becomes an issue --

7 you're right, Andrea -- we need to look at

8 having language in the contract that says,

9 "Well, that we need to be in all GDSs," or

10 something like that, so we are going to try

11 to, you know, use our buying power to tell the

12 airlines where they need to post their fares.

13 I don't know how far along we could get with

14 that. I don't know if we have the power to

15 tell the airlines where they need to put their

16 fares.

17 So that's why we have it written

18 the way we have it written.

19 MR. COYLE: Can I comment on that?

20 MR. HAAG: Jeff Haag from

21 Southwest. I just --

22 MR. AQUILINO: Hold on. George


1 wanted to talk as well, so -- hold on, George.

2 MR. HAAG: You know, I just wanted

3 -- I mean, I think it's a great point. I just

4 -- Vince, if I could echo what you said in

5 caution to GSA on mandating/requiring any type

6 of participation in a global distribution

7 system by your airline partners. I think that

8 would be detrimental to the carriers that

9 participate in your program.

10 But I would encourage the GSA and

11 DoD to look at other alternatives to accept

12 our inventory, direct connect relationships,

13 or whatever it may be, that technology is

14 emerging very quickly. GSA, ETS, DTS, seems

15 to be a little bit behind the times in

16 allowing feeds from -- directly from a

17 respective carrier or vendor.

18 So in light of what is happening

19 in the industry as it relates to global

20 distribution systems, this is a great reminder

21 to ensure that the online booking tools of the

22 Federal Government are up with current times


1 and available to accept direct connect feeds

2 from their respective carriers.

3 MR. LEE: Okay. George,

4 microphone.

5 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. George,

6 you're on.

7 MR. COYLE: I don't think I could

8 say it any better than -- I'm not sure who

9 spoke --

10 MR. AQUILINO: That was Jeff Haag

11 from Southwest.

12 MR. COYLE: Oh, excellent. I

13 think, you know, I've sent some information

14 just so you know what was going on. There is

15 a lot more hesitation it is really -- the

16 current environment we are in with all of the

17 GDS systems, whether they're on EDIFACT, which

18 is a 30-, 35-year old technology, versus what

19 we see today on the internet with XML. So

20 it's about providing full content to the

21 customers and recognizing their needs, and

22 giving them the ability to bundle as needed.


1 So I would also echo the

2 sentiments about cautioning you to force your

3 vendors to do business a certain way. I don't

4 think that's a win-win scenario.

5 MR. AQUILINO: Thank you, George.


7 Defense Travel Management Office. I would

8 just like to add, you know, with the American

9 Airlines, since you did bring it up, if the

10 change is made -- say, if it's the next month,

11 DoD -- and I don't know about the other

12 agencies -- we would need time in order to

13 prepare our system and our processes to be

14 able to accommodate those needs for the

15 travelers to utilize American or Southwest.

16 This is not something that we can

17 implement tomorrow and be able to support in a

18 month or even two months. This is something

19 that is going to take us -- and we are meeting

20 with GSA, actually, next week to address this

21 -- that this is something that is going to

22 take some time for us to be able to look at


1 and to implement.

2 MR. AQUILINO: Annie?

3 MS. SCOTT: Annie Scott, GSA. And

4 also, one thing as far as from an auditing

5 point, right now we don't audit against

6 tickets purchased on the internet or through

7 the airline's private system. If we issue an

8 overcharge against that, we allow those

9 overcharges. So if that is going to take

10 place, something has also to be extended to

11 the fact that we can now audit those tickets,

12 if they are going to be issued by the

13 carrier's systems.

14 MR. AQUILINO: Thank you for that.

15 MR. BILLONE: This is Tom at

16 United again. And Jerry may remember this,

17 because it was before he was with GSA, so it

18 was -- it was about 50 years ago, I think it

19 was, but --

20 (Laughter)

21 -- we had a meeting in Tim Burke's

22 office way back when when he was Program


1 Manager for ETS. And one of the main topics

2 -- and this has got to be at least six years

3 ago, maybe seven years ago. One of the main

4 topics was moving towards a direct connect

5 scenario.

6 And if we had -- or GSA had

7 continued down that path, we would be there

8 now. You know, because at that time it was

9 the rage, all the new GDS standards were

10 coming out. And I've forgotten what their

11 names were, but they have come and gone.

12 But it was the scenario that was

13 being seriously looked at, and it seems to

14 have gone away. But I think the time has come

15 where that might be something that needs to be

16 looked at again and move forward on it.

17 But, you know, and somebody might

18 want to talk to Tim about that, because that

19 was quite some time ago. And that was his

20 intent.

21 MR. HAAG: The time is here. We

22 need to stop looking at it and talking about


1 it and do it. I mean, the technology is out

2 there in the corporate environment. In the

3 corporate world, direct connect functionality

4 is available and being utilized today. So

5 it's not something that we need to start

6 looking at. It's there. It's something that

7 we need to integrate into the online booking

8 tools that are used by the Federal Government.

9 Period.

10 It is more cost effective for you.

11 It is more cost effective for us. It

12 provides a more enhanced customer service

13 experience. It improves the booking process.

14 It increases the level of data that goes back

15 to your agencies that utilize your program.

16 There is no reason not to embrace

17 this technology and make it available today.

18 Everybody wins. So just for what it's worth.

19 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. Vince

20 Aquilino from GSA. I'm not so sure we haven't

21 done that, we are not doing that. There is a

22 new ETS2 coming out very shortly. And, you


1 know, although I am not privy to all the

2 features and capabilities you may have, but

3 this is definitely state-of-the-art types of

4 online booking engine and all of the

5 accoutrement that goes with that, the way it

6 handles reservation.

7 So I'm not sure it wouldn't allow

8 for that, but, you know, that's something that

9 has to be put out, and it should come out

10 soon. I don't know when they are going to be

11 finished, but it --

12 MR. LEE: All I need is -- I'll

13 call Frank Robinson. He is the new program

14 manager.

15 MR. AQUILINO: Can you provide an

16 update to us as to where we are --

17 MR. LEE: Yes.

18 MR. AQUILINO: -- with that

19 functionality?

20 MR. LEE: Be glad to.

21 MR. CLIFFORD: Denny Clifford with

22 Delta. Yes, Delta would be on board with


1 that. I think it's another option.

2 I think the last time, if I

3 remember right, one of the issues was about

4 legitimacy and making sure that the parameters

5 were there and the technology setup, so that

6 there wasn't abuse in the system. And if that

7 could be done away with, or not an issue,

8 then, you know, we would be on board with

9 that.

10 And, obviously, it saves us a lot

11 of GDS fees. We just have to construct it in

12 a way that, you know, you don't have abuses.

13 MR. LEE: Any comments on the

14 phone?

15 MS. CARLOCK: Andrea Carlock. I

16 totally agree with you. I don't think we

17 disagree. I think my comment and the point

18 that I'm making is the GSA contract, the way

19 it reads, because I have talked with Gene

20 about this, doesn't allow us -- right now we

21 can't support having the inventory provided to

22 us any other way besides a GDS right now.


1 The way it is put in place right

2 now, so if next month American Airlines

3 decides to pull out of the GDS, we are going

4 to have a problem. Right now, ETS or DTS or

5 our CTO contracts don't support supporting

6 that right now.

7 MR. LEE: We will work in

8 partnership, Andrea. I know that.

9 MR. ELLIS: Vince? Jerry Ellis,

10 GSA. Actually, as far as the booking and

11 distribution, the GSA contract is somewhat --

12 we don't point that. Basically, the contract

13 reads that the airlines will make their

14 bookings and their fares through their normal

15 distribution channels. That's how it is

16 addressed.

17 So it is not addressed that you

18 have to go through a GDS. It is not addressed

19 that you can't use online booking. It just

20 says that the fares and the schedules will be

21 made to the government through your normal

22 distribution channels.


1 MR. AQUILINO: Yes. And I think

2 that's Andrea's point, that they are being

3 used -- they are using GDSs -- DTS is set up

4 to get the fares off the GDSs. And that if

5 they were to be achieved in the industry,

6 where these fares are no longer distributed --

7 I mean, GDS, that DTS and ETS would have an

8 issue catching up to that right now.

9 And Tim Burke didn't sit on his

10 hands for six years. He has worked on -- he

11 has worked this issue, and ETS is an answer to

12 that. All right? Keep light on their feet,

13 being able to, you know, reflect the changes

14 in the industry and the way distribution of

15 fares are being done.

16 And so we owe you anything we can

17 release with regard to ETS2 and its

18 capabilities to gather fares, whether it's

19 direct capability, direct connect capability,

20 or some other way, through maybe third party

21 integrators, information integrators, and that

22 kind of thing. So that's possible. So we owe


1 you that, and we'll get that to you.

2 That was what he was talking

3 about. It takes time. The industry didn't

4 even have its capabilities to do that. The

5 industry is moving. We understand that GDS

6 distribution is a cost center for you, and

7 that you are looking for ways to reduce costs

8 of your distribution. We understand that, and

9 we are chasing that.

10 Hold on.

11 MR. BILLONE: I don't need the

12 microphone. If I gave the impression that I

13 felt that Tim wasn't doing anything, I didn't

14 mean to give that impression. Okay? I didn't

15 know it went anywhere, didn't know it was

16 years ago. And we had -- like it was a big

17 thing, like a fire for a year, and then it

18 went away. We haven't heard anything since,

19 you know.

20 And I guess it's our position as

21 carriers, if you're going to do something like

22 this that is going to impact us, we would like


1 to have some input into how it's done.

2 Because when we looked at the original ETS

3 when it first came out, in the room, in the

4 demonstration, we were horrified about what

5 was happening with the demonstrations.

6 You know, ETS was the first one to

7 give a demonstration, and we all had heart

8 attacks because it was just a total mess. And

9 it was like, "Oh, we didn't -- we have

10 involved industry." And so obviously you did.

11 So what is the partnership in

12 this? And sometimes it is going to affect how

13 we sell our product to you, but it would be

14 good if we all got together and said, "Okay.

15 This is what we're looking for."

16 MR. AQUILINO: Okay. The RFP is

17 out on the street. We have responses to it.

18 We owe you what that means to you in terms of

19 your distribution. We'll go back to the

20 program manager and ask him what he can

21 provide us with regard to that, and, specific,

22 how we can gather your fares, you know,


1 however you are going to do it, what ETS will

2 bring to this, and let you know.

3 MR. BILLONE: No, I -- yes.

4 MR. AQUILINO: Do you understand?

5 MR. BILLONE: We've got to get our

6 people -- our ISD people, if necessary,

7 involved in the process, so they are ahead of

8 the curve also. They know what's coming down

9 the road, what we need to do, because we don't

10 want to here, "Oh, the new ETS2 was out on the

11 street," or EDO2, whatever. I could like

12 download that proposal. It is an impossible

13 thing to try to get down, though, so you can

14 understand it.

15 So, you know, we need to get

16 people on board, so they can say, "Okay, this

17 is what we can do, and this is what we can't

18 do." And when it hits the streets, when it's

19 time for it to come into play, we're all on

20 board and it goes smoothly.

21 MR. LEE: We'll relay that concern

22 to Frank Robinson.


1 MR. BILLONE: Appreciate it.


3 phone have a comment?

4 (No response)

5 Thank you.

6 MR. LEE: All right. Well, unless

7 there are further concerns, thank you

8 everybody for your time. We appreciate your

9 partnership and your cooperation our agency

10 partners and our carriers. Thank you so much.

11 Thanks, everybody. Thank you.

12 (Whereupon, at 3:02 p.m., the proceedings in

13 the foregoing matter were

14 concluded.)

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22



Aability 55:13 83:22able 24:10 25:17

37:16,18 39:5,840:16,20 55:757:13 59:19 62:369:11 80:2 84:1484:17,22 91:13

absolutely 34:566:17

abuse 89:6abuses 89:12accept 82:11 83:1access 14:5accommodate 80:1

84:14accompanied 64:10accomplishments

17:6Accountant 7:20accounting 36:22

41:11Accounts 35:4accoutrement 88:5accurate 5:8 54:22achieved 91:5Act 17:13active 45:15activity 12:21 24:2actual 24:8 29:4,15ad 69:8add 54:14 84:8added 17:10adding 71:17addition 16:22additional 32:14

40:4,6address 34:19 65:2

66:19 77:13 84:20addressed 90:16,17

90:18adds 60:11Adjournment 3:6ADMINISTRAT...

1:2advance 55:21 56:2

56:8,13,16 59:17

65:11 67:18advise 24:14affect 23:15 93:12Africa 27:12afternoon 5:14,17

12:14,18agencies 46:13

68:21 69:22 84:1287:15

agency 36:7 95:9agenda 12:16 74:22agents 77:17ago 22:22 40:12

54:16 67:2,1272:8 85:18 86:3,386:19 92:16

agree 35:15 36:340:6 54:2 63:589:16

agreeable 61:14agreed 66:2agreement 48:20ahead 41:17 94:7Air 7:21 43:5,8

78:3aircraft 18:22 19:2

19:5 21:12,1377:15

airline 15:12 21:1,732:12 34:16 40:243:10,19 50:1062:11 63:5,7 76:477:3,5 78:6,9 82:7

airlines 2:7,7,8,8,92:9,10,11,12,136:11,13,21 8:9,108:17 9:21 10:1,5,710:17,19 15:1220:1,16 22:2123:10 24:10 29:2130:22 35:10 37:1337:19 38:11 39:244:4 48:16,1954:2 55:13,1658:1 59:14 61:961:13,19 62:15,2163:3,14 65:22

66:2 70:16,1672:17,17,18 77:1379:20 80:6,1381:12,15 84:990:2,13

airline's 85:7airplane 23:13airport 23:15 44:8Airtran 2:14,15

11:9,11 64:6,15Airtran's 65:22Airways 2:11 9:6,8

10:9 11:11 46:458:7

Alaska 2:9,12,138:8,10,12 10:5,710:16,18 26:14

ALBERTA 12:8Alberts 2:12 10:8,8

10:11allow 77:17 79:20

85:8 88:7 89:20allowance 33:14allowing 82:16allows 14:6,20

16:18alternatives 82:11Amber 1:14 3:4

5:15 17:19AMC 1:18 77:11America 1:1 2:14

10:21 11:1American 2:9 8:17

8:19 17:12 57:1280:12 84:8,1590:2

amount 18:5 30:331:1,19 77:3

analysis 54:3,1767:9

Analyst 1:16 7:6Andrea 1:19 6:8

61:15,16 62:6,879:18 81:7 84:689:15 90:8

Andrea's 91:2Angie 2:3 9:15,17

Annie 1:18 5:2234:19,21,22 35:238:9,10 41:1885:2,3

answer 36:2 63:1691:11

answers 32:6anybody 11:7

23:20 45:7 48:1150:4,17,20 57:963:18 64:1,2 95:2

anymore 37:2057:4 72:5 74:8

apart 71:14apparently 5:2appears 28:18apples 21:15application 14:6,10Applications 13:17applied 67:1apply 33:6appreciate 15:17

16:15 24:7 34:1341:13 46:6,13,1546:17 55:10 58:1674:10 78:16 95:195:8

approach 47:21approached 74:20appropriate 18:18April 15:4 16:9,21Aquilino 1:16 7:5,5

8:1,6,10,14,18,219:3,7,11,14,17,2210:3,6,10,14,1810:22 11:4,10,1511:18 12:1,9 38:738:10,14,18 41:1641:22 42:14,1744:4 45:7,18 46:548:7,11 57:9,1657:20 58:3,6,1059:2,6,10 61:662:6 63:2,17 64:264:14 68:13 74:280:4,15 81:2283:5,10 84:5 85:2

85:14 87:19,2088:15,18 91:193:16 94:4 95:2

ARC 26:1area 22:13 23:18areas 25:22,22Arlington 1:11arms 57:14ASAP 47:18Asia 27:11asked 17:21 18:8

19:14 32:7 55:262:8 75:12

asking 35:12 51:567:3

asks 43:15assign 18:18assist 46:14Assistance 17:12assume 49:21 50:1ATF 77:19Attachment 13:6,8attack 78:11attacks 93:8attendance 4:12attention 32:18

33:1audit 6:1 85:5,11auditing 41:1 85:4Audits 6:3 34:18

35:5authorized 45:6automatically 71:2availability 30:11

52:8available 83:1 87:4

87:17avenues 76:15aviation 22:12award 18:8 31:11

31:11 79:13awarded 79:9awards 18:9 31:1aware 53:8 55:20

BB 12:19 17:9 27:18


27:19back 16:15 26:1

28:9 29:2 36:1051:4 54:18 60:861:7 62:15 65:572:4 77:19 79:185:22 87:14 93:19

background 38:1750:20

bag 32:14,14,22baggage 32:13,19

33:2,5,14 74:1bags 22:7,11,11,12

23:2 32:14 33:843:11,15 44:1645:1

bandaids 71:16banks 40:17based 18:9 29:3,15

31:7 48:16,2265:21 70:20

basically 16:2 20:720:10 35:6 36:136:10 37:4,1139:11 41:8 51:1062:12 90:12

basis 23:4becoming 25:14behalf 4:7believe 65:6 66:19Belmadani 2:13

10:12,13,14Bender 11:21,22

12:1beneficial 50:8better 32:8,15 70:5

78:20 83:8beyond 4:17 75:13bias 21:16 23:18bid 24:16 29:21

66:7 72:2bidding 25:16big 27:22 34:20

76:13 92:16biggest 77:2,5Billone 2:7 6:14,14

19:10,11,14,18,22

19:22 20:12 23:923:13 28:7,730:13,17,21 36:1836:18 41:5 44:746:22 47:4,9,1549:20 55:12,1258:18 59:4,9 61:270:6,6 73:10,1274:5 77:22 78:878:11,15,18 85:1592:11 94:3,5 95:1

bit 24:1,6 27:1329:17 32:3 82:15

blame 70:8board 88:22 89:8

94:16,20booked 65:4booking 51:9 52:14

65:7 82:21 87:787:13 88:4 90:1090:19

bookings 90:14boom 44:21bottom 55:8box 42:11Branch 35:3,4bread 21:10breakdown 27:18

28:10 64:21bring 32:17 49:11

84:9 94:2BrisTOW 60:13Brittany 7:3brought 28:12,14

48:22 50:12 77:1177:19

build 62:11 69:18bundle 83:22Burke 91:9Burke's 85:21business 1:15 5:18

17:20 52:2 56:1967:16 69:4,11,1873:16 76:9,16,1684:3

businesses 76:18butter 21:10

buy 59:8buyer 77:2,5buying 81:11B.1 18:15B.21 17:11B.26 17:11B.36 12:20B.4 17:11B4 22:7,11

CC 27:18,20 56:18CA 64:11calculate 24:22

29:13calculates 25:10calculations 25:1

26:9calendar 17:7call 3:2 4:11 23:17

49:1 56:5 88:13Camille 11:21 12:1

12:2cancel 51:12 60:5cancelled 60:1,2cancels 51:8capabilities 88:2

91:18 92:4capability 45:10,21

80:22 81:1 91:1991:19

capacity 19:3,622:18 24:11 25:225:11,15,17 29:1430:1,8 76:4,5,7

card 40:15 45:16care 4:21 72:21careful 71:13cargo 18:6 20:17

20:22 21:5,6 22:622:18

Carlock 1:19 6:8,861:16,16 79:17,1880:14 84:6,689:15,15

Carolyn 2:12 10:810:10

carried 13:10carrier 23:16 33:5

33:10,10 69:10,1370:19 71:5 82:17

carriers 13:21 14:214:3,7,14,2116:10 21:8 25:1631:13 34:17 43:2246:12,14 54:855:4 58:15 61:2161:22 68:2,1169:16,17,21 70:971:6 82:8 83:292:21 95:10

carrier's 53:1385:13

carries 20:21case 30:7 38:5 69:4

69:12,18catching 91:8caution 82:5cautioning 84:2caveat 32:21 65:22Cavos 2:10 8:20,20

8:21 57:18CCR 13:15center 6:17 92:6Central 13:14certain 70:13 84:3certainly 33:15

46:15Certifications

13:16change 12:20 17:22

18:1,15 23:1128:19 29:8 32:1852:10 54:10,1364:10 68:4 69:171:18,21 84:10

changed 40:14changes 12:19 13:7

17:9,10,17 35:748:1,21 74:2179:22 91:13

channels 90:15,22Chapel 7:3,3charged 43:18

73:17charges 32:13 33:2chart 51:10chasing 92:9check 37:8 43:4,14

43:16,19 44:1645:4,17

checklist 13:7check-in 44:15Chief 35:3chip 68:15Chris 2:11 9:5,7

46:5 58:6circumstances

26:15cities 22:4,5City 1:6 4:8,8 5:12

5:16,19 7:9 12:1512:22 13:19 33:1433:22 63:1

clarification 7:1036:19

clarifying 41:6,13class 48:18 56:19clause 66:21clearance 45:5cleared 44:16click 32:11Cliff 2:11 9:20 10:3

48:15 57:22 58:3Clifford 2:8 6:10

6:10 9:22 20:1520:15,20 22:2027:3,8,14,2137:21 39:16,2040:1,9 41:2 45:250:18 51:1,353:10,15,20 54:1462:7 63:3,20 65:866:22 74:17 75:675:14,14,17 76:188:21,21

clock 52:17close 14:12,19 15:3

15:20closer 29:20closes 15:14


coast 26:17 74:19codeshare 33:4,6,9coffers 60:9collect 35:19 37:16collected 35:21collecting 36:14

37:10collection 35:4,8collections 41:10collectively 76:6come 26:7 27:9

30:22 31:2,5 40:350:8 61:13 86:1186:14 88:9 94:19

comfortable 25:15coming 5:1,10 23:4

46:13 70:14 86:1087:22 94:8

Command 7:2243:5,8

comment 15:623:21 46:1 48:2057:10 74:18 79:1281:19 89:17 95:3

comments 3:4 4:1319:8,15 21:2231:22 46:12 48:1774:16 77:8 89:13

Commerce 11:1411:19 69:7

commercial 16:316:13 52:2,3,653:4 56:5,6,22

community 50:10commuter 21:1,12commuter-type

19:5 21:11comparison 57:1,5complete 17:1completed 13:9completely 15:14composite 28:15,15

29:9 31:7compromise 61:3

65:19concept 54:19 63:6

63:14 65:11

concern 65:3 94:21concerned 48:8concerns 48:22

50:4,5 60:12 95:7conclude 7:11concluded 95:14conducted 34:2conduit 68:20conference 1:4,10

7:12 12:15conflict 22:13confuse 57:6confusing 36:20

41:7conjunction 66:20connect 14:16

82:12 83:1 86:487:3 91:19

connection 26:1326:16,18 27:16

consider 48:576:13

consideration 22:122:16,16 73:9

consistent 76:17construct 52:12

66:4 89:11contact 13:1 36:6contacts 33:21contain 13:7content 83:20Continental 6:15

55:16continue 36:5

54:12continued 46:16

86:7contract 1:14 5:15

7:4 16:8,19 17:1421:18 24:12 25:425:18,21 26:856:3 57:1 66:5,769:1 71:4,1074:21 79:8 80:1,480:10,17 81:889:18 90:11,12

contracting 1:11

1:14 5:11 68:20Contractor 13:15CONTRACTORS

2:6contracts 74:3

80:17 90:5control 24:11 25:2

25:12,15,17 29:1430:1,9

controlled 48:18cont'd 2:1conversation 12:7

38:12conversations

54:13 75:16cooperation 95:9coordinate 73:18copies 41:21COPS 13:18,19

14:5,7,17,20 15:115:6,7,15

copy 42:2 47:1,2corporate 87:2,3corporation 77:4Corpus 2:5 6:22,22

75:5correct 31:12 35:16

37:12 65:5,7correlate 53:3cost 32:9,15 60:15

74:2 87:10,1192:6

costing 72:22costs 92:7count 21:10 63:13counter 45:5,17countries 27:13couple 34:14 39:7

67:15 78:3course 78:6COURT 46:2cover 7:13 16:3,7covered 52:7covering 12:17covers 16:19 52:5Coyle 2:9 8:16,17

8:18 38:13,15

41:17,18 42:3,1645:13 48:10 57:1181:19 83:7,12

CPP 13:1created 14:1criteria 21:17

28:20 64:11 71:19critical 74:14Crystal 1:11 63:1CTO 80:17 90:5CTOs 80:20curious 29:9current 82:22

83:16currently 80:5,10

80:16Curry 1:17 6:18curve 94:8customer 45:22

87:12customers 17:21

22:15 25:14 26:633:15 46:13 52:477:9 83:21

cut 59:20C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

3:1

DD 27:18,20data 15:8 17:4 26:1

26:3,4 40:16,1840:20,22 51:1353:7 54:11,2155:1,6,7,14 57:1458:17,17,18,19,2059:3,5,7 61:8,1061:11 65:3 66:1266:13,14,15,1667:3,4,5,7,13 68:369:10,14,15,1887:14

date 13:8 60:19day 15:8,11 51:7,11

71:3 72:16days 16:5 35:10

36:5,11,11 41:8

51:7,12 52:15,1658:19,21 60:3,2172:4

deal 34:20 68:570:17

Debbie 2:2 9:9,11December 51:17,18

53:8,21decide 36:7decides 90:3decision 62:17

67:10 68:4,11deduct 37:6deduction 37:7

39:9deductions 39:6,13Defense 5:21 6:4,6

6:9 61:17 69:779:18 84:7

defined 18:22 19:4defining 19:8definitely 51:14

54:5 88:3definition 18:14,21definitions 18:15deliberating 76:20Delta 2:7,8 6:11,12

20:16 21:4 22:2150:18 59:12 60:1861:8 63:21 67:578:19 88:22,22

Delta's 45:2demonstration

93:4,7demonstrations

93:5Denny 2:8 6:10

20:15 27:2 54:365:6 75:14 88:21

deny 73:22Department 5:21

7:20 8:5,7 9:16,1811:14,19 41:1269:7,7,8

departments 70:10departure 52:16Deroum 1:21 7:19


7:19detailed 67:22details 65:17determination

17:13 30:2detrimental 82:8DFAS 37:6,9,17

39:4dialogue 49:8difference 18:5

27:22 29:18,2230:3 54:20

different 69:1671:17,22 72:16,16

difficult 55:15dinner 75:7direct 82:12 83:1

86:4 87:3 91:1991:19

directly 82:16Director 7:8disadvantage 21:20disagree 21:21

89:17disagrees 63:14disclaimer 32:21

33:12discriminate 45:22discuss 4:14 40:4

45:21 46:20 49:12discussion 64:21discussions 50:3displayed 79:21

80:2disregard 72:7distributed 91:6distribution 79:21

80:3 82:6,2090:11,15,22 91:1492:6,8 93:19

Division 6:1 34:18DOC 2:4documents 13:8DoD 1:19,19,20,20

23:21 62:2 82:1184:11

dog 77:17 78:4

dogs 77:12,15,21DOI 2:2doing 24:4,22 37:6

71:13 72:6 87:2192:13

DOI/NBC 2:4 11:311:5

DOJ 1:21dollar 29:21 31:3

31:12domestic 25:5

26:11,21 28:1030:7

domestically 30:9domestics 26:13Donna 2:10 6:2

8:20,21DOT 2:3 9:13,14double 26:16download 94:12dozen 62:22draft 48:2 49:2,5

49:14,16Driss 2:13 10:12,14Drive 1:11DTS 82:14 90:4

91:3,7dual 24:3,8,17due 16:20 17:3Duly 74:9Dunyon 2:13 10:16

10:16,18duty 22:9 45:15Dvorak 1:21 6:16

6:16D.1 18:19

Eearlier 20:16 48:17

65:3easier 42:12east 26:16 27:12Eastern 13:11

27:12EC 27:14echo 82:4 84:1EDIFACT 83:17

EDO2 94:11effective 87:10,11eight 72:2either 40:7electronic 16:16

41:19 42:1elements 74:21Ellis 1:15 3:4 5:17

5:18 15:5 17:1917:20 19:12,16,2020:7,13,19 21:2223:12,20 27:5,1027:15 28:1 29:1230:15,18 31:2134:6,9 46:4 48:455:20 68:16,1790:9,9

embrace 87:16emerging 82:14empty 65:14encourage 82:10ends 31:19engine 88:4enhanced 87:12ensure 33:7 64:20

82:21enter 67:8entire 4:8 16:8

21:18 46:16 50:966:6 68:21 70:273:15

environment 83:1687:2

EPA 2:2 9:10,12equals 31:2equipment 22:19ERGENE 1:16especially 15:9,11

18:6 27:11 29:10ESQ 1:17estimate 32:9,16estimated 31:3ETS 82:14 86:1

90:4 91:7,11 93:293:6 94:1

ETS2 87:22 91:1794:10

evaluate 20:5 29:3evaluating 31:10evaluation 12:20

17:17 18:1,13,2020:8 21:17 28:1931:16 47:12,1664:10 71:19

evaluations 28:16evenly 29:3everybody 4:7 7:7

24:14 34:11 38:1438:15 53:21 57:662:19 63:12 67:1467:16 87:18 95:895:11

exact 79:13,14exactly 64:18 73:17example 21:2excellent 69:10

83:12expecting 31:14expense 44:12experience 87:13explain 37:2extended 14:15

26:12,17 27:1533:3 85:10

e-mail 14:2,2 42:1042:11 50:6

FF 56:18face 64:16,16facilitate 34:4fact 68:2 85:11factor 18:13 20:9

20:14 65:1factors 24:21fair 30:19fall 71:14familiar 14:8far 12:8 16:16

31:12 32:19 48:853:13 68:6 75:2181:13 85:4 90:10

fare 24:3,8,2025:12,15 29:14

30:1,9 31:1032:10,10 48:1856:4,5,6,7,11,1256:17 57:2,364:11,21 67:1581:5

fares 24:12,17 25:225:3,9,18 28:1652:8 55:21,2256:16,18,19,19,2157:4,10 80:6,7,1880:19,21 81:3,1281:16 90:14,2091:4,6,15,1893:22

features 88:2February 1:8 14:3

14:11Federal 68:22 70:2

82:22 87:8fee 33:2 71:5feedback 34:13feeds 82:16 83:1feel 54:9feeling 73:4fees 74:1 89:11feet 91:12felt 92:13fewer 19:6 20:3field 56:15fifties 29:1figure 28:15 29:9

31:3 68:6,9figures 28:17,22

29:10 31:6final 25:1 26:9 47:6

48:2,3,5,9 49:1749:22 50:14 79:11

finalized 47:1financial 54:17find 32:6 79:2

80:21finding 35:18fine 12:7finished 88:11fire 92:17first 4:6 32:13


66:12 68:14 93:393:6

fiscal 16:3,6 17:7flag 33:5,10flight 22:11 33:9flights 30:12flood 46:21floor 46:19fly 21:13,13,18flying 22:3 23:17folks 4:6 38:7,22

74:18 75:1followed 32:20Following 13:3follow-on 7:15force 78:4 84:2forced 70:21foregoing 95:13foreign 33:4,9foresee 48:21forgotten 86:10format 41:19 42:1forms 26:6formula 29:12formulate 68:1forth 67:9forum 59:11 60:14forward 54:4,11

86:16four 72:8Frank 88:13 94:22freaked 41:11free 33:13 44:22frequently 32:7Friday 14:12front 65:7Frontier 2:10 8:20

8:22 57:18fuel 32:12 69:9

73:22full 18:3,9,12,18

19:9 20:9,2283:20

fully 55:20full-type 22:17functional 78:4functionality 87:3

88:19fundamental 69:1funds 37:5 38:5further 95:7future 4:16 42:7,7

49:6,7,8,10,1275:9,12

FY 3:3 75:9FY09 25:6 26:4

54:16FY10 25:4 54:17FY12 4:8,15 12:21

25:21 26:8 49:466:5 75:10,13,1375:17 79:8

FY13 4:16

Ggame 72:16Gammon 2:11 9:5

9:5,7 46:1 58:5,9gate 46:21gateway 22:5gather 91:18 93:22GDS 80:9,12 81:4,5

83:17 86:9 89:1189:22 90:3,1891:7 92:5

GDSs 81:9 91:3,4gee 31:17Gene 7:7 34:3 49:9

66:22 68:13 89:19general 1:2 4:13

12:18 13:2George 2:9 8:16,18

38:18 41:16,1742:14,18 45:11,1957:11,16 81:2282:1 83:3,5 84:5

getting 15:18 16:1425:2 37:10 39:1043:18,18

give 8:2 36:5 40:655:3 58:17 66:1367:5,22 68:269:17 78:5 92:1493:7

Given 26:14giving 83:22glad 4:20 88:20global 79:21 80:3

82:6,19go 12:16 13:4 16:1

17:16 22:14 28:929:2 31:17 32:6,732:11 41:17,19,2042:1,2,5 43:1444:11,14,14,2245:4 50:9 52:1965:1 67:19 68:1474:4 75:6,2178:22 79:11 80:2081:4 90:18 93:19

goes 31:12 32:1960:4 87:14 88:594:20

going 4:4,5 5:1212:17 16:1 17:1620:2,5 22:9,9,1223:10,18 24:1928:20 31:4,1833:8 35:7 36:1036:13 38:20,2140:7,8 41:1043:11 45:9 47:549:1,9,21 50:1351:7 52:19 55:1858:7 61:2 62:1667:8,21 68:3 70:870:10,11 71:3,671:12,18,20 72:475:1 76:21 80:1181:10 83:14 84:1984:21 85:9,1288:10 90:3 92:2192:22 93:12 94:1

good 5:14,17 12:8,912:14 16:14 24:438:14 93:14

Goodmann 2:1410:20,20,22

gotten 43:8,9 78:3government 24:9

30:5,6 59:17

60:10,16 61:1262:9 65:3 66:1568:22 70:2 76:880:19 82:22 87:890:21

governmental68:20

government's 17:773:16

Gray 1:14 3:4 5:145:15 12:14 15:22

great 12:9 78:1982:3,20

group 14:13,15,2014:22 15:2,16,1618:1,20 26:10,1126:11,12,17,19,2028:16,17 75:15,15

groups 73:22GSA 1:14,14,15,16

1:16,17,17,18 2:55:22 6:2,18,22 7:27:4,6,8 17:2050:21 54:18 66:367:19 68:17,19,1970:1,11 72:1079:11,22 82:5,1082:14 84:20 85:385:17 86:6 87:2089:18 90:10,11

GSA's 73:15 75:15GTRs 37:3,4,9,19

37:20,22 38:3,639:12,15

guarantee 71:4guess 21:3 60:19

79:6,7 92:20guys 31:20 58:5

67:2 71:17

HHaag 2:8 6:20,20

54:1,1 81:20,2082:2 83:10 86:21

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NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under

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true and accurate record of the proceedings.

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