UKRA AGM 2013 Minutes Active Participants · UKRA AGM 2013 Minutes 24th February 2014 United...

UKRA UKRA AGM 2013 Minutes 24th February 2014

United Kingdom Rocketry Association of 65 Chacksfield House, 31 St. Andrews Road, Leicester, LE2 8RE

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UKRA AGM 2013 Minutes

Active Participants (Abbreviations used throughout main text)

AM Andy Mell

CE Chris Eilbeck

DBe Dave Beeton

DBu Damian Burrin

JB John Bonsor (UKRA Council)

MH Mitch Hamilton

MP Mark Perman

MS Mel Sharpe

MT Martyn Turner (UKRA Council)

PB Peter Barrett

PC Phil Charlesworth

RS Russ Strand (UKRA Chair)

(See Appendix P for a full unabridged copy of the 2014 AGM forum posting in the original order.)

Contents

Open of the AGM 2

1 Chairman’s Remarks 2

2 Minutes of the UKRA AGM 2012 2

3 Annual Report of the 2013 Council 2

4 Financial Statements & Balance Sheet 4

5 Result of Elections to Council 5

6 Appointment of Auditors 5

7 Appointment of a Solicitor 5

8 Alterations to the Constitution of the Association 5

9 General Business 5

10 AOB 6

10.1 2014 UKRA National Event 6

10.1.1 National Event Vote 7

10.1.2 National Event Site 7

10.2 UKRA Membership Numbers 7

10.3 Role of UKRA Council 8

10.4 Purpose of UKRA 8

10.4.1 UKRA Certification 9

10.4.2 Publicising UKRA 10

10.5 UKRA Website Overhaul 10

10.6 Membership Involvement in AGM 10

10.7 UKRA Liaison with BMFA 11

11 DONM 11

Close of the AGM 11

Table of Actions 12

Appendix A – Forum Posting for AGM 13

Appendix B – Forum Posting RE: AGM 1 – Chairman’s Remarks 13

Appendix C – Forum Posting RE: AGM 2, AGM 6, AGM 7 14

Appendix D – Forum Posting RE: AGM 3 – Annual Report of the 2013 Council 15

http://www.ukra.org.uk/



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Appendix E – Forum Posting RE: AGM 3.2.4 – Prompt Processing of Membership 15

Appendix F – Forum Posting RE: AGM 4.2.2 – Smart Card Printer 16

Appendix G – Forum Posting RE: AGM 9.1 – UKRA 2013 Yearbook 17

Appendix H – Forum Posting RE: AOB 1 – 2014 UKRA National Event 18

Appendix I – Forum Posting RE: AOB 2 – UKRA Membership Numbers 24

Appendix J – Forum Posting RE: AOB 3 – Role of UKRA Council 25

Appendix K – Forum Posting RE: AOB 4 – Purpose of UKRA 28

Appendix L – Forum Posting RE: AOB 5 – UKRA Website Overhaul 36

Appendix M – Forum Posting RE: AOB 6 – Membership Involvement in the AGM 37

Appendix N – Forum Posting RE: AOB 7 – UKRA Liaison with BMFA 37

Appendix O – Forum Posting for Close of AGM 38

Appendix P – Complete Unabridged AGM Forum Posting 39

Open of the AGM

The 2013 AGM was opened at 12:15 on Friday 31st January 2014 by RS with a forum posting in the

UKRA Forums » Public Forums » General Discussion area.

A copy of the UKRA AGM 2013 AGM Agenda and Report was attached to the post.

(See Appendix A for a copy of the post content.)

1 Chairman's Remarks

MP commented that he expected a fuller account of UKRA activities in the Chairman’s remarks.

No further comments were made by the membership regarding this agenda point.

(See Appendix B for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

2 Minutes of the UKRA AGM 2012

DBu asked the current council how the vote on accepting the 2012 UKRA AGM Minutes would be

facilitated. RS proposed that the 2012 minutes were a true record of the 2012 AGM meeting. The

proposal was seconded by JB.


(See Appendix C for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

3 Annual Report of the 2013 Council

CE thanked the council for a comprehensive report.

(See Appendix D for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)




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3.1 Actions arising from the 2012 AGM

No comments were made by the membership regarding this agenda point.

3.2 Membership

3.2.1 2013 Membership Stats


3.2.2 New “Registered” Membership Option for 2013


3.2.2 New UKRA Membership Card

AM commented that the 2013 UKRA membership card was ‘very nice’.


3.2.3 New UKRA Membership eCard


3.2.4 Prompt Processing of Membership

MT stated that establishing a robust set of tools and processes is important to ongoing

operations of UKRA and that in particular, the role of Membership Secretary has relied upon

significant commitment from an individual on the council. MT stated that steps taken to improve

these processes will significantly help current and future Membership Secretaries.

PC concurred with MT’s statement and congratulated the outgoing council for sorting out the

membership database. PC also noted that a ‘nice looking’ membership card helps with the image

of UKRA.

RS commented that membership applications for 2013 were a prime focus for the outgoing

council and that with this framework in place, the incoming council will be in a position to make a

more visible contribution to UKRA in 2014.

(See Appendix E for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

3.2.5 HPR Level Certification Certificates


3.3 Safety & Technical

3.3.1 2013 HPR Level Certs


3.3.2 S&T eMail Address





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3.4 Council Newsletter – Centre of Pressure (CoP)


3.5 Email Ticketing System


3.6 Renewal of “ukra.org.uk” Web Domain


3.7 BMFA CEO, Dave Phipps made Honorary UKRA Member


3.8 Brighton Model World 2013


3.9 HSE Consultation on Proposal to Consolidate and Modernise Explosives Legislation


3.10 Council Resignations


4 Financial Statements & Balance Sheet

4.1 UKRA Finances


4.2 Noteworthy Expenditures

4.2.1 FoR 2012 @ Big EARS


4.2.2 Smart Card Printer

MS questioned the benefit to UKRA of the Smart Card Printer given the number of current

members. AM stated he felt that £2.39 per card (£1434.78 / 600) was a reasonable unit cost and

queried how long the 600 cards would last.

MT informed the membership that the factors that influenced the council’s decision to purchase

the card printer were:

Ease of production,

Reduction in time / effort spent by the Membership Secretary,

Desire to provide a good quality membership card,

Good value afforded by the system when looking at the total cost of ownership over

multiple membership years.




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MP stated he felt the purchase was excessive.

(See Appendix F for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

4.3 2013 Balance Sheet


5 Result of Elections to Council


6 Appointment of Auditors

DBu asked the current council how the vote on appointment of Auditors would be facilitated. RS

proposed that no Auditors be appointed at this time. The proposal was seconded by JB.



7 Appointment of a Solicitor

DBu asked the current council how the vote on appointment of a Solicitor would be facilitated. RS

proposed that no Solicitor be appointed at this time. The proposal was seconded by JB.



8 Alterations to the Constitution of the Association


9 General Business

9.1 UKRA 2013 Yearbook

PB thanked the membership for articles he has already received for the UKRA Yearbook. PB

made a request for the information:

Details of club flying sites and club contact details,

Club 2014 flying dates,

Stories / articles on interesting days / flights from 2013,

Reports on big events in 2013 e.g. Big EARS, IRW,

2013 HPR L1, L2, L3 certification articles and photos,

Reviews on altimeters / trackers etc.




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PB suggested that if he did not receive more content soon then the 2013 Yearbook should be

abandoned and focus be placed on a 2014 Yearbook from a much earlier point.

CE questioned the need for a Yearbook considering the availability of online forums etc.

DBu made the observation that at a previous AGM (2010 / 2011), the need for regular publication

was addressed due to the availability and speed of online updates as well as the difficulties

experienced in obtaining articles from the membership. As a consequence of that, the publication

of …10…9…8 was withdrawn. DBu also implored the members to support in the publication of

the Yearbook but noted that it may be a struggle to complete.

MP suggested dropping the 2013 Yearbook and asking PB to create newsletters with the

material instead. MP also stated that when Clubs are promoting themselves that it would be

useful to have something tangible to represent UKRA for interested parties to take away with

them.

(See Appendix G for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

10 AOB

10.1 2014 UKRA National Event

DBu asked if there are any plans for a UKRA National Event in 2014. Noting the disappointing

attendance at previous events, DBu suggested the 2014 council could organise a smaller, more

cost effective event, without a large marque and bar, as a way of encouraging flyers to meet and

talk to other flyers and council members. He also stated that previous recent events have not

been well promoted or driven by council. CE agreed with DBu and added that a national event is

of paramount importance to the future of UKRA.

RS suggested that the motivation for a national event was not felt by as strongly by all and called

upon the membership to post their thoughts on the matter. He also noted that organisation of a

national event should not be left entirely to the council. JB agreed. DBu and CE expressed

opinions to the contrary.

A discussion ensued about the 2013 National Event (or lack thereof). It was noted that the 2013

council requested volunteers to help, but none were forthcoming.

RS agreed to take an action point similar to the one placed at the 2012 AGM.

AP1: UKRA will look into the possibility of providing a National Event in 2014.

DBu expressed that he is prepared promote the event ahead of time, help to set up an event, to

do RSO duties, man desks and help pack away after the event.

Ideas which came out as part of the discussion:

JB noted that any such event should be strongly promoted outside the current

membership and organised and structured in a manner to gain new rocketry enthusiasts

and UKRA members. MP also suggested this approach.

DBu noted that if an event was organised well enough in advance, local members to the

launch location could be called upon to do the manual labour.




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DBu suggested a list of jobs be circulated well in advance to provide volunteers a chance

to sign up to them.

DBu suggested a pre-registration and/or a deposit of £10, i.e. the event only goes ahead

(bulk of organisation) when a feasible number of members have signed up. Updates

should be posted regularly to keep members abreast of the activities, upcoming

launches, etc. (membership numbers could potentially be bolstered if there are

spectacles to behold). Prepaying members could be afforded a discount over those

paying on the gate.

(See Appendix H for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

10.1.1 National Event Vote

RS proposed a vote be circulated to the membership to better determine the motivation form

a national event. Options suggested were YES (I would like to see a National UKRA event in

2014), NO (I have no strong desire to see a National UKRA Event in 2014) and NEUTRAL (I

am neither passionately for nor against a National UKRA Event IN 2014). JB seconded. DBu

suggested the pole be done via the website. RS suggested both the website and email be

utilised.

AP2: A vote regarding a 2014 National UKRA Event will be circulated to the

membership to gauge the motivation and interest in holding one.

10.1.2 National Event Site

DBu asked if the offer of the old Heckington, Lincolnshire UKRA site and the contact details

of Hilbastow Sky Diving Club were followed up. RS requested DBu supply them again and

took the following AP.

AP3: The Council will attempt to contact Graham Platt for information regarding the

owner of the previous Heckington launch site and contact Hibaldstow airfield as part

of the considerations for a National Event in 2014.

DBu also suggested a club be approached to provide a location and provide them a fixed

budget to work to. MP also suggested this approach and suggested that time not be wasted

on

10.2 UKRA Membership Numbers

In relation to UKRA not providing a National Event in 2013, CE expressed a concern about

dwindling membership numbers and the future of UKRA.

RS stated that UKRA displayed a health growth in membership in 2013, with 65 new members to

the organisation, a 7.8% increase on the total number of people UKRA had on its books in 2012.

JB commented that a National Event should be organised in such a way as to try to gain new

participants to rocketry in the UK and UKRA.

CE inquired as to the trend in full memberships of UKRA over the past 5 years. JB also showed

an interest in this data and that it could possibly be achieved through the analysis of archived

membership data.

AP4: The 2014 Council to look into publishing the historical membership statistics for

UKRA.




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(See Appendix I for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

10.3 Role of UKRA Council

DBu suggested that a lot of issues seem to be down to the membership not understanding the

roles of the council. DBu requested a list of tasks / action points assigned to specific council

members to enable the membership to see what the council did on behalf of UKRA’s members.

RS stated that getting membership applications sorted for 2013 was the main priority for the

2013 council and took significant time from several council members. RS stated that the minutes

of the 2013 council meetings and the 2013 AGM report adequately identifies the main activities

of the council carried out in 2013. RS affirmed that the activities of the council were performed as

a collective and therefore it is not appropriate for individual activities or tasks to be quantified.

RS confirmed that a lot of tasks performed by the council last year were ‘behind the scenes’ and

by building on this framework, the 2014 council should be in a position to make a more visual

contribution to UKRA in 2014.

JB concurred with the comments made by RS.

DBu stated that when he was a member of the council, it was the council’s responsibility to plan

and organise two events per year. He suggested that providing a tangible benefit to the

membership (such as National Events) should be the reason that members stand for council.

DBu offered his ongoing support in providing assistance at a UKRA National Event but that it

should be the role of the council to promote the hobby through organising and promoting events.

JB agreed with DBu’s comments but stated that unfortunately not enough members are standing

for council and so, has too few members to fully achieve day-to-day tasks, let alone

improvements and activities suggested by the membership. JB stated that due to the 2013 tasks

undertaken by the council and personal commitments by the council volunteers, it was not

possible to run a 2013 event as there was little support offered up by the membership when

requested.

CE asked how it is possible for members to organise an event without access to UKRA finances

and stated that such a task needs to be led by the council.

JB addressed CE’s question by referring the Handbook page 23, 11.1 The Council, and page 24,

11.8 Delegation of Powers, pointing out that council can co-opt willing members and empower

them as necessary to enable completion of tasks.

MP stated that if the hobby is to grow then, as a minimum, the council needs to promote the

hobby. MP stated that this could be achieved by Council members turning up at larger events

and supporting clubs on stands or having a separate UKRA stand.

RS indicated that there is an intention among several council members to ensure a council

presence at as many of the clubs’ (at least one per club) events in 2014 as possible. DBu, CE

and DBe all expressed their approval at this announcement.

(See Appendix J for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

10.4 Purpose of UKRA

AM expressed that as a new member, he felt that the purpose of UKRA and the benefits

provided to the membership were not well articulated to the membership. He requested more

information.




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RS responded with the following points regarding this:

To provide an "enabling and advisory" role for rocketry in the UK, whether that be Model

(A to G motors), High Power (H to M motors) or Large (N and greater power motors)

rockets.

To provide and maintain a Rocketry Safety Code and Certification Scheme to promote

and foster safe launch practices.

To ensure that the BMFA recognises and supports the above such that they will provide

insurance cover.

To stay abreast of legislation and guidance from the CAA, HSE etc. to both inform the

membership and ensure that the UK rocketry interests are considered.

To bring UK rocketeers together to benefit from eachothers experience and advice.

RS noted that these things are ‘behind the scenes’ activities but are very necessary to the

continuation of the hobby. RS concluded that purpose and benefit of UKRA needs to be better

articulated to the membership as part of the website overhaul exercise (see next section).

PC expressed that membership benefits above and beyond those provided by a rocketry club

who is affiliated to the BMFA need to be identified to attract people back to UKRA. DBe agreed

and added the purpose of UKRA had become blurry since the introduction of the free

‘Registered’ membership option. PC added that the UKRA mission statement (to promote

rocketry and act as a BMFA specialist body) is covered by the role of the clubs and the BMFA.

PC further expressed that the Safety Code and S&T activities are essentially activities on behalf

of the BMFA and therefore could be taken on by the BMFA, MP noted this to be an interesting

point.

PC stated that in his opinion UKRA needs an overhaul to identify how it can be relevant in the

future and where effort should be focused. He offered to help with this exercise in 2015.

JB noted that whilst only of benefit to a small number of members UKRA was responsible for

devising the Large Rocket Scheme and getting it agreed and sanctioned by the BMFA.

JB also highlighted that the BMFA does not represent rocketry and only recognises and insures

rocketry at all levels because UKRA represents rocketry to them. JB strongly expressed an

opinion that the BMFA will not satisfactorily represent and support rocketry in the absence of

UKRA. JB provided some history regarding “SpaceCom”, a BMFA endeavour which he surmised

in his opinion if not resisted by the then UKRA council, would have taken over responsibility for

rocketry and abolished HPR. JB expressed that the Safety Code, Model Rocketry Achievement,

HPR Certification, and Large Rocket Schemes, RSO network and Safety and Technical

Committee are all owned and administered by UKRA and could not (and would not) be

adequately administered by the BMFA. JB also noted the CAA, NATS and ATCs all recognise

UKRA as the legitimate national body for rocketry which facilitates affiliated clubs to negotiate

altitude limits for their sites.

DBe clarified that he was not advocating the reduction of UKRA authority, rather he would like

the benefits and role of UKRA to be clear such that he can proudly represent UKRA without

confusion.

(See Appendix K for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

10.4.1 UKRA Certification

DBe expressed that the only benefit of UKRA he still understood is that the USA rocketry

organisations (Tripoli and NAR) recognise UKRA Level Certifications, thus enabling UKRA

members to fly HPR in the USA without the need to re-certify.




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PC asked if the cert scheme is a BMFA requirement or a ‘club’ aspect of UKRA. He noted

that a previous AGM held at the IRW formed a sub-committee to look at the purpose and

method of the cert scheme but none of the recommendations were adopted. JB agreed that

the certification scheme could be subject to review, but only on the basis of real safety and

operational needs.

DBe suggested that HPR fliers should be expected to maintain a logbook to show continued

competency at a given HPR level and suggested that UKRA pursue the idea of producing

an official compulsory logbook. JB agreed that this is a good idea and noted that many fliers

already keep an unofficial log of their flights.

10.4.2 Publicising UKRA

DBe expressed that UKRA needs a more tangible and regular publication. DBe also

questioned the last time UKRA produced promotional literature (brochures, cards, posters),

he stated the need for a central stock that can be purchased or sent out for suitable events.

CE noted that before UKRA produces more publicity literature a decision on the target

market needs to be made. He suggested getting information into T3 or Wired magazines, or

a table in the Science Museum (with membership support) during the summer holidays. CE

expressed that he was prepared to support this.

MH noted that Simon Mayo on Radio 2 on Friday afternoons at 5pm has a slot called “The

Friday Fixture” where people promote an unusual sport or pastime

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/simon-mayo/contact/friday-fixture/).

MP suggested that promotion is key to the growth of the hobby. He suggested attendance at

events such as Space Day or Brighton Model World with UKRA/clubs stands. He noted that

he has been asked if anyone from the rocketry public would be interested in giving a talk on

rocketry from the ‘80s to present at the BIS Cosford IV conference and asked if anyone is

interested.

10.5 UKRA Website Overhaul

AM stated that most membership organisations have a statement on the front page of their

website to highlight why they exist and what benefits are offered to the membership. He noted

that this does not appear to be articulated on the UKRA website.

RS responded that it is the intention of the council to overhaul the current website as a 2014

priority, both in terms of content and appearance.

AP5: Better articulation of the role and purpose of UKRA needs to be provided on the

UKRA website.

DBu suggested that a regular news/updates and flight/event report section would be a welcome

addition for the public facing pages of the website.

(See Appendix L for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

10.6 Membership Involvement in AGM

CE suggested that a link to the AGM be put on the front page of the website and an email sent

out to the membership to maximise membership involvement in the online AGM.

RS established that CE and DBu had not received the global membership email that was sent

out to the membership. RS resent the email to CE and DBu and put a link to the AGM forum post


http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/simon-mayo/contact/friday-fixture/



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on the front of the UKRA website (on Sunday 2nd February 2014). DBu established through the

Amateur Rocketry Society of England (ARSE) Facebook group that members of that forum did

receive the initial mailshot informing them of the online AGM.

(See Appendix M for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

10.7 UKRA Liaison with BMFA

MP commented that UKRA need to work closely with the BMFA to avoid misunderstandings and

to offload administrative duties (wherever possible).

(See Appendix N for a copy of the forum post content relating to this section.)

11 DONM

The date of the 2014 AGM was not discussed during the course of the 2013 AGM. The 2014 Council

will propose a date for the 2014 AGM at an appropriate time later in the year.

The 2014 report noted that the council requested feedback on the format and successfulness of the

2013 online AGM. DBu noted one issue with a forum based AGM is that it can be easy to misread

who posts what.

In the closing post RS concluded that the online AGM had been very useful and has enabled open

discussion, the council will discuss how it can incorporate this type of exchange into future AGMs.

MP commented that separate AGM’s are not a realistic option, and that to attract involvement, they

need to happen at an event of value / interest to the membership.

AP6: The 2014 Council will look into providing a 2014 AGM which maximises both the

usefulness of and attendance at the meeting.

Close of the AGM

The 2013 AGM was closed at 20:29 on Friday 7th February 2014 by RS.

RS thanked everyone who participated in AGM and surmised that there had been a lot of useful

discussion, he also wished all the membership an excellent year of flying in 2014.

(See Appendix O for a copy of the post content.)




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Table of Actions

ID Action 2014-AGM-AP1 UKRA will look into the possibility of providing a National Event in 2014.

2014-AGM-AP2 A vote regarding a 2014 National UKRA Event will be circulated to the membership to gauge the motivation and interest in holding one.

2014-AGM-AP3 The Council will attempt to contact Graham Platt for information regarding the owner of the previous Heckington launch site and contact Hibaldstow airfield as part of the considerations for a National Event in 2014.

2014-AGM-AP4 The 2014 Council to look into publishing the historical membership statistics for UKRA.

2014-AGM-AP5 Better articulation of the role and purpose of UKRA needs to be provided on the UKRA website.

2014-AGM-AP6 The 2014 Council will look into providing a 2014 AGM which maximises both the usefulness of and attendance at the meeting.




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Appendix A – Forum Posting for AGM

UKRA on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 12:15. The UKRA council welcomes you to the 2013 AGM post. The council has decided to trial this online AGM. The Agenda and Council report can be found here:

UKRA 2013 AGM Agenda and Report Document If you have Any Other Business (AOB), a question regarding the report content or simply just something UKRA related that you would like the council or membership to address, please add a comment. If your comment or question relates to a section of the report, please include the relevant section number in your post. This post will be open for comments until 20:00 on Friday 7th February. After which time the AGM will be closed and the minutes will be produced and circulated to the membership shortly afterwards. The council looks forward to speaking with many of you over the next week. The UKRA Council

Appendix B – Forum Posting RE: AGM 1 – Chairman’s Remarks

Mark Perman on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 17:49.

Hi all Have been following the thread and looked at the Minutes Here are some comments and suggestions Personally I would have expected a somewhat fuller account of UKRA activities in the Chairman’s remarks. …


http://www.ukra.org.uk/user/2

http://www.ukra.org.uk/files/UKRA_AGM_2013_Agenda_and_Report.pdf



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Appendix C – Forum Posting RE:

AGM 2 – Minutes of the UKRA AGM 2012,

AGM 6 – Appointment of Auditors &

AGM 7 – Appointment of a Solicitor

Damian Burrin on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:28.

Russ/John/Council members et al. How are we going to facilitate the vote on accepting the minutes, selecting an auditor etc? Do you want to do it via a post on here?

Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 21:15.

Damian, Approval of minutes can be done via the forum at a later date, or as a first order of business at the next AGM. As Sections 6 and 7 of the Report indicate there is no intention to appoint auditors or a solicitor at this time.

Damian Burrin on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:55.

Russ, I was refering to the 2012 minutes as they need to be accepted as a true record of the last meeting and voted in and the decision not to appoint and audutor/solictor is something the chair can and should propose as part of this agm but it has to go to a vote and agreed via the members as has happened in previous ukra meetings i've attended which is why i asked how we were doing such things.

Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 01:11.

Ok then: I propose that the 2012 minutes are a true record of the 2012 AGM meeting... I propose that we will not appoint an Auditor or Solicitor at this time... I will take lack of disagreement as indication that the membership agrees with these statements/decisions (although feel free to post an agreement if you do).

John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 04:05.

I Second the acceptance of the Minutes of the 2012 UKRA AGM. I was present at that AGM. I've just re-read the 2012 Minutes, and checked them against my own notes from said AGM. I Second that we not appoint an Auditor or Solicitor at this time.




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Appendix D – Forum Posting RE: AGM 3 – Annual Report of the 2013 Council

Chris Eilbeck on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 19:32.

Thank you for the very comprehensive report.

Appendix E – Forum Posting RE: AGM 3.2.4 – Prompt Processing of

Membership

Martyn Turner (UKRA Council) on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 09:10.

… Establishing a robust set of tools and processes (e.g. for membership) is important to the ongoing operations of the organization. In particular the role of membership secretary has traditionally relied on a significant commitment by an individual on council, and steps taken to ease this burden will go a long way to helping the current and future membership secretaries.

Phil Charlesworth on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 20:14.

I think getting the tools and processes right is important, and I recognize that a lot has been done in that area. Well done to the outgoing council for sorting out the membership database. A nice looking membership card helps with the image of the organization. …

Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 20:53.

… Focusing on getting the membership applications sorted in 2013 was a priority for the council and as such took a significant amount of time from several of the council members. … Hopefully, building on the framework put in place last year, the council will be in a position to make a more visual contribution to UKRA in 2014.




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Appendix F – Forum Posting RE: AGM 4.2.2 – Smart Card Printer

Mel Sharpe on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 10:29.

Item 4.2.2 Purchase of a Smart card printer. What is the benefit of a Smart Card printer (£1,434.78) to an organisation of 170 members who rarely meet in groups of more than 30? Does the cost include a Card reader? Despite my pretentions, I admit to ignorance in many things technical, hence my query. I note the comment that: "Research showed that this printer holds its value well". However, given the rate of technological change and that the card stock of "600 cards.. .. and two extra ribbon cradles for gold and silver ribbon for special cards" is more than the requirement for 3 years at current numbers, I find this difficult to follow.

Andy Mell on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 22:16.

I did balk at seeing this item 4.2.2, but 1434.78/600 = £2.39 per card, which is pretty good. How many years do we expect 600 cards to last?

Martyn Turner (UKRA Council) on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 09:10.

Hi Mel, There were multiple factors that influenced the council's decision to purchase the card printer. These included - the ease of production facilitated by the printer and the reduction in time/effort expected of the membership secretary, the desire to produce a good quality card for the members, and the good value afforded when looking at the total cost of ownership over multiple membership years. …


… Spending that amount of money to purchase a printer to print membership cards was in my opinion excessive! However its done move on. …





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Appendix G – Forum Posting RE: AGM 9.1 – UKRA 2013 Yearbook

Peter Barrett on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 19:39.

HI all, firstly thankyou to everyone that has so far sent me articles for the yearbook about your great rockets. unfortunately apart from getting launch dates for Black Nights for 2014 I have not received any of the following - Someone from each club to supply some details of your flying site and contact details etc. - Someone from each club to supply flying dates for 2014. - Stories / articles on an interesting flight / day. - Reports from big events in 2013, i.e. Big Ears, IRW, Midland Sky, etc. - 2013 HPR L1, L2, L3 certification articles and photos. - Tips on rocket building or how to do something, - Reviews on altimeters, trackers etc. If this yearbook is going to be made, I really need articles about events that happened in 2013 as thats what is supposed to be a YEAR BOOK Please send any information ASAP to [email protected]. I even e-mailed the complete UKRA membership and only got 2 replies. Surely if we want UKRA to be bigger and better and we need to advertise it. so a few people must have written articles for local newspapers etc. if I dont get anything soon, I suggest we forget the yearbook for 2013 and concentrate on doing a proper one for 2014 If so can I please ask people to make notes / short reports for each meeting etc for this year and send a copy to me

Chris Eilbeck on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 20:05.

In the days of online fora an facebook groups, does anyone really want a yearbook?


"There needs to be a more tangible and regular publication of a magazine or newsletter" It's interesting that at the last agm i attended which was prb 2010 or 11 the members dicussed what was then 10,9,8 and whether it was now needed due to the speed and proliferation of photos,articles etc now online and difficulty in getting articles from members. Chas as chair proposed to cancel the magazine which im sure went through, so i was surprised that the year book suddenly appeared and though i have contributed some pics and an article im not shocked that there has been provblems getting enough content. I do hope that Pete can pick up the batton and get content and i implore members to help him get it out this year as it was a promised benefit but i do think it will struggle this year …


… 2013 Yearbook forget it it’s too late. Ask Pete B to be Newsletter editor instead and use the material so far gathered in this year’s Newsletters, fold Centre of Pressure into the revamped 10, 9, 8 (ahem newsletter). Why do we need a newsletter for a start see the comments in the thread. In addition when clubs are promoting themselves/the hobby at events such as Space Day they have something tangible to represent UKRA – people who are interested really do like to take away this sort of material. In fact BIS don’t produce much publicity material we just put out a selection of our magazines which generally include some joining details/info about the society somewhere within. …


mailto:[email protected]



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Appendix H – Forum Posting RE: AOB 1 – 2014 UKRA National Event

Damian Burrin on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 17:54.

What are the plans for a ukra national event in 2014? I acknowledge the dissapointing attendance at previous events however UKRA could organise a "smaller" more cost effective event without the huge marque and bar as a way of encouraging flyers to meet and talk to other flyers and even council members. Previous recent events have not been well promoted or pushed by council with the last ukra event not even making to the ukra news or banner page until very late. Chris Eilbeck on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 18:47.

I agree with Damian. There must be a UKRA national event if we are not to wither and die. It doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be elaborate but it does have to be promoted outside of the dwindling current membership.


Whilst I agree with you both that it would be good to see the resurrection of the UKRA National event, I do not agree that UKRA is going to "wither and die" without one, last year we had 65 new members join UKRA, that is a 7.8% increase on the total number of people UKRA had on its books in 2012. I think that the 'need' for a National Event is not felt as strongly by all the membership. I would like to invite those that do feel strongly about this post here so that we can fully understand the membership's thoughts on this matter. Organising a National Event is no small undertaking and I do not believe that this should be left entirely to the Council. Last year we called upon the membership for volunteers to help us organise an event and no help was forthcoming. You two seem very passionate about this, can we count on you to help with a 2014 event? Chris Eilbeck on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 19:20.

Russ, you miss the point. It's not about the organisation, it's about telling people it's gonna happen! Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 19:35.

I apologise for any miss-understanding. The 2012 AGM agenda action point, said that the 2013 council would look into a National Event, not that we would provide one. The council were not in a position at that time to be able to deliver an event by ourselves. Without the man-power to deliver an event, it is not possible to provide one, hence the call to the membership for assistance. It is likely that a similar situation will occur in 2014, we would very much appreciate any help you can provide.


That wasn't the question Russ. I was simply asking if council plan on organising one. I guess from your response the answer is no unless a member steps forward to do it for council.


The answer is definitely not no. The council has not yet had a chance to discuss this either way. Without conferring with the whole council I cannot at this point state if UKRA will provide an event. I will however take an action point in the same guise as last year's AGM, i.e. AP: UKRA will look into the possibility of providing a National Event in 2014.

Our next council meeting is Monday night and so I will ensure that this is given proper consideration.

John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 19:30.

Dear Chris. The points that Russ (UKRA Chair) makes in response to your comments and Damian's about continuing the National Launch event are entirely relevant.




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However, should there be another National Launch event (and personally I do see quite some merit in that, but again we must be fully informed by all previous experiences, good and bad, with this event, going all the way back to 1997), I do agree with your point that such an event should be strongly promoted outside of the current UKRA Membership. However, the event itself should be organised and structured in such a way as to try to really gain new participants to rocketry in the UK and new UKRA Members, and in that respect it should perhaps be part of a wider effort for those purposes. Damian Burrin on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 19:39.

When i served on council it was the council that planned and organised two events per year i was directly involved with it during my tenure. I assume that the current council joined for the betterment of the organisation. I am as always happy to do rso duty, man desks etc but it should be a council job to actually promote the hobby through organising and promoting events et al. After all surly this is why you all stand four council.


Yes, all quite so. But the situation now is that repeatedly not enough UKRA Members are standing for Council each year. So the Council has too few people to accomplish everything that it is mandated to do (which things it does do), along with other things that the Council itself, with the approval of the Membership, would like to do, and other things that the Membership might wish the Council to organise and accomplish. As has been several times pointed out, Council service is a voluntary, part time activity. As reported, the 2013 Council had a lot to deal with, and we focused our efforts on the areas and items identified. That was quite a full workload for the people on the Council. Yes, the Council should deliver leadership and initiatives for the betterment of UKRA and for rocketry in the UK. However, the Council cannot do that fully effectively in isolation from and without the assistance and participation of the Membership. Personally, I think we need a more two-way process of Council-Membership co-operation. The above reasons are why the call was made by the Council in April 2013 to the Membership in respect of the National Launch event. It's a not a matter of the Council abrogating its responsibilities and role, but a matter of recognising our practical limitations and seeking to overcome those with the help and involvement of the Membership.

Chris Eilbeck on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 18:43.

…How can members organise an event when they are not officers of the association and therefore cannot commit the associaton to financial expenditure? This needs to be led by council even if some other members do some of the leg work

Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 19:26.

I don't think anyone was ever saying that a non-council member would organise an event in isolation, the council were simply asking for some extra help. I think we've covered this in significant detail now, I would like to suggest we draw discussion on a National Event to a close. APs have been taken and therefore this will be discussed and reported back on. I do think it is worth understanding what motivation for a National Event exists from all the membership and so I propose an email vote with simply YES (I would like to see a National UKRA event in 2014), NO (I have no strong desire to see a National UKRA Event in 2014) and NEUTRAL (I am neither passionately for nor against a National UKRA Event IN 2014). Would someone care to second?

John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 08:20.

I am happy to second your motion for a vote on the National Event question, in the terms that you state in the third paragraph of your post on this. The result of such a vote, if it gets a good "turn out", would help to inform Council discussion, action, and leadership on this matter. Even if the vote attracts very little response, that would still tell us something.




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Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:23.

Thanks John, AP: An email vote regarding a 2014 National UKRA Event will be circulated to the membership to gauge the motivation and interest in holding one.


Can i suggest a poll on the members section of the website rather than an email vote. Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:41.

How about both and the website poll numbers are only counted in the case where an email response has not been provided?


Up to you Russ - Just thought that with a poll people can see what the

interest level is straight away. I'm happy either way…

John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 23:09.

… it seems to me, for some cases (each considered on its merits), that Co-option onto the Council, or Delegation of Powers meet the valid point that you make. Both are provided for in the UKRA Constitution. See the 'Handbook, page 23, 11.1 The Council, ii), and page 24, 11.8 Delegation of Powers. I take your points about expenditure commitment authority (but any

significant expenditure always needs to be approved by Council anyway), and Council leadership. Hope that this meets what you ask about.


First of all, just for clarification, both for yourself and all other UKRA Members, it has been agreed by the Council that all Council Members can respond individually to all comments posted for the 2013 AGM conducted on-line. Hence my individual response here (and not "through the Chair" as it would be in a face-to-face AGM). Taking your comment under the Agenda AOB, which I think is the appropriate place for it - The situation as regards a UKRA National launch event in 2014 remains the same as stated in the relevant paragraph in the "UKRA AGM 2013 Agenda and Report" - see page 2, 3.1 Actions arising from the 2012 AGM, see fifth Action - that is, that there are at present no plans for such an event.

Effectively your comment here is the first response, so far as I can recall, to the call in April 2013, mentioned in the above Action, to Members for expression of interest in and willingness to take the initiative, with

Council support, on the continuation of a UKRA National Launch event. Therefore Damian, I'd be interested, as I am sure many others would be, to hear a bit more about your ideas on this and what you would be prepared to do yourself to help such an undertaking along? With regard to your comment about what you perceive as lack of promotion of previous National Launch events, and I think you are particularly referring to the Festival of Rocketry in 2011 and in 2012, personally I'd rather not comment on that. I can however say that the members of the current Council have a good understanding of the shortcomings that you allude to, and other problems that there were with the Festival of Rocketry event, which did however, also have some successes in both years. These are lessons valuable to any future National Launch event,


Firstly John let me appologise the comment wasn't aimed at yourself rather a reply to Russ's response, i missread the sender. One of the issues with this type of meeting rather than face to face or voice based. Secondly i clearly misread the minutes which said there were no plans for a 2013 event which is why i asked regarding a 2014 event and if anything was planned




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Thirdly i allude to nothing, for what ever reason the last two events were not promoted am i not allowed to ask why or suggest that future events could be better promoted to both members and the public. As for what am I prepared to do. The same as always. Help promote it through generating discussion, offer my time at the event as rso, front desk. Arrive the day before as always and help setup as well as usually helping with tear down if I am able. But probably most importantly of all actually turn up despite the weather because someone spent time to organise it on my behalf. What do others plan on doing? What do our council members plan ob doing? If ukra are truly interested in my ideas. I'd say go back to basics. Work with a club, use their luanch site and facilities but hold it a weekend or a single day when it's not their club launch so it feels like a distinct event. Forget marques and tables but get people interested, start and enguage threads about the event, drum up a buzz. Let the local media know. …


Assurance.

Let me in turn assure you that I did not take your comment personally. I took your comment to be general within the compass of the question about viable organisation of, promotion of, and future for an annual National Launch event. My response was intended to be similarly general within the same question compass. Your help with National Launch events, future and past.

I note, appreciate, and fully accept all that you say about the practical assistance that you stand ready to give to any future National Launch events (which assistance you have rendered in the past), on the "days of the race", so to speak. I also understand what that preparedness represents in regard to how you see the role of the Council, and the Membership of UKRA in relation to a National Launch event. Promotion of past National Launch events.

You are of course entirely entitled to ask about what you perceive as a lack of adequate and timely promotion of the 2011 and 2012 Festivals of Rocketry to the UKRA Membership and more widely. I was not seeking to be evasive in not responding to that question. Others, in a position to do so, may wish to speak on your question here. However, the fact is that, particularly in respect of the 2012 Festival of Rocketry, I believe, from long experience, that it would be potentially unhelpfully contentious for me, and I mean me particularly, to speak to what I think was the core problem with that event. The UKRA Council and the Festival of Rocketry, personally and generally.

I had, as a member of the 2011 and 2012 Councils, some, I believe helpful, input to the development of the Festival of Rocketry (FoR) efforts to revive the UKRA National Launch event. I also directly added to the wider publicity for the 2011 FoR, which I know directly was effective in drawing in public attendance at that event. Also, as you may recall, Bobby Wark and I were there with the "Rockets To Go!" workshop programme, which was very busy, with members of the public building and flying model rockets, on both days. At the 2012 FoR the public rocket workshop sessions were provided and run by Pete Barrett, as was quite proper as that FoR was hosted, and substantially arranged and run, at their preference, by EARS, and hosted at the EARS Elsworth site. I mention this history only as one example of one Council Member's very direct involvement in the creation, organisation, promotion, and direct practical "on the day of the race" contribution, to the most recent UKRA National Launch events. Added to that, other members of the 2011 and 2012 Councils were actually far more involved in the respective FoR's than I was. For the 2011 event, Ben Jarvis, James MacFarlane, Charles Simpson, and Martyn Turner in particular put in a great deal of demonstrably effective effort, greater than mine. The support of the Black Knight's Club, and the hosting of the 2011 FoR at their Oxhill site, was of course of great material assistance. My question to you about a future for a National Launch event.

My question to you about organising future National Launch events was not about your "day of the race" practical assistance, but rather your thoughts and ideas on the form and advance organisation of any such future events. In several of your comments on this thread, you have in fact made some good suggestions in that regard, which I for one appreciate, and which I think merit consideration. Resolved.

In fact with your constructive responses to the question that I put to you, Chris's comments, and Russ's response, as UKRA Chair, in posting an Action Point about a National Launch event in 2014,

the discussion has had a definite and positive result, upon which we can all build and advance.




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Apology.

I apologise for the delay in this response from me. I had to go out mid-Friday evening, and did not get home 'til quite late. Damian Burrin on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 11:06.

I have not limited my time in the past to on the day suport when we had event in lincolshire I was able to directly be involved with the organising and preparatipn of the event and this continued while I was on counci and after. There were many other members that did to. I still strongly believe it is a council role to organise and lead such an event. The difference is that then ukra had an event site these are days long gone. If ukra council organised the event and administeated it well enough in advance it could then rely on members 'local' to the event to do the manual labour as it was in the past. Memberships can't organise it, it needs to be lead. Graham Platt and Charles were very good at this. How about this. Ukra council proactivly speak to a club and fix a date for an event. Publish it well in advance, promote it but for it to go ahead make it clear that specific jobs need to be completed, lead, provide a list of jobs and support the volunteers in doing it. Provide the host club a fixed budget to work too. If money is an issue then make the event pre registered only. If flyers want an event make them pay a £10 deposit, the event only goes forward if enough members express an interest. The deposits could be returnable if the minimum has not been met and the organisation doesn't begin until it has. You are then offsetting tbe risk and putting the onus on us. Here is the event you want it to go ahead we need 30 pre registered members by x date. Publish updates, whats been done which members have registered. I remember going to a ukra event only because I new Ben Jarvis was going, before I knew wbo he was I just wanted to see the bloody big rocket I'd heard he was bringing. Pre reg members could even get a discount to those paying on the gate. What do you think?


In brief reply, as per your paragraphs. 1. I've not been questioning your involvement in assistance to and organising previous UKRA National Launch events, as a Council Member, or not. 2. As you say. 3. As Russ has stated in his AP about a National Launch Event (NLE) this year, we will be discussing this at the Council Meeting on Monday evening. All ideas, suggestions, proposals, and offers re the NLE possibility, your's, and those of any other UKRA Members, will be considered. Re, "What do you think?", it's not just what I think, it's what the rest of the Council thinks too. You've made it clear that you want the Council to take the lead here. Well, in that case you need to let us act as a Council, as we will on Monday evening.

Damian Burrin on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 13:12.

Excellent - i look forward to reading the outcome. The "ask what you think" was as the most senior council member with problaby the most experience in being involved in organising events on similar scale, ie ukra, klob, irw and big range i was asking what you thought of the method, do you think it would work. But as you i would like the council to lead so i'll leave it at that and will wait for you to meet. Can i suggest though that other members might have some comments regarding this so might make sense to leave council discussion until after the agm has closed - unless i am truly the only member that wants to engauge in discussion




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… Did anyone from council follow up the offer of use of the old ukra site but access from the other side I passed these details on a cpl of years ago and never heard of a anything back. I also passed details of hibaldstow sky diving club who seemed aimable to supporting a launch if we could work round their events. Did anyone contact them?


I was not aware of these details, please can you supply them again. My UKRA email address is russ.strand-at-the ukra web address. I will see that these options are looked into.


I no longer have the number for the farmer but we used the land foir long enough so there will be records i'm sure. The origional land owner of the Heckington site had passed details via ex member Graham Platt the fact he was still willing to allow ukra fly from this site still but we would need to access via the other village where the old house is. I passed the details to ukra at the time. Was Jim chair then? I will email you the hibaldstow details Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 20:59.

Thanks Damian, we will try to follow up with Graham Platt or failing that look into the records. AP: The Council will attempt to contact Graham Platt for information regarding the owner of the previous Heckington launch site and contact Hibaldstow airfield as part of the considerations for a National Event in 2014.


… UKRA event – Council don’t waste your time on a separate event. Contact a club and agree for a joint event then support it - promote it heavily and constantly and then the Council need to turn up on mass and do the jobs reqd to make the thing run successfully. The problem here is that most clubs are small and have limited resources so if UKRA wants an event it needs to help make it happen and that means the keen rocket flyers, who are Council members anyway, turn up and do/share the work. Do not waste your time looking for a separate flying site, to clubs sites for UKRA events. Finding flying sites can be very time consuming – utilise and therefore help maintain the existing assets.

…


Excellent Russ so with membership on the way to being resolved maybe there will be time to look at the

possibilites of 2014 event




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Appendix I – Forum Posting RE: AOB 2 – UKRA Membership Numbers

Chris Eilbeck on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 18:47.

… if we (UKRA) are not to wither and die … the dwindling current membership.


… I do not agree that UKRA is going to "wither and die" without one, last year we had 65 new members join UKRA, that is a 7.8% increase on the total number of people UKRA had on its books in 2012 …


… the (National) event itself should be organised and structured in such a way as to try to really gain new participants to rocketry in the UK and new UKRA Members, and in that respect it should perhaps be part of a wider effort for those purposes.


… What is the trend in full membership, not just in the last year but, say, over the last 5? …


I'm sure that the analysis that you ask about could be done with available archived membership data, perhaps by the present Membership Secretary (Russ Strand) - 'though that's up to Russ and the Council. However, it's a good question.






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Appendix J – Forum Posting RE: AOB 3 – Role of UKRA Council


Russ as chair. A lot of issues seemed to be down to membership not understanding the roles of council. Yes we know it's volentary and not enough members stand, it's been like that for as long as i can remember. If it's not confidential can you let members know what were the spefic jobs or APs given to council members, what did council actually do on behalf of its members outside that of processing membership applications. This might give us a better understanding of the time and effort individual council members put in. Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 20:53.

Damian, Focusing on getting the membership applications sorted in 2013 was a priority for the council and as such took a significant amount of time from several of the council members. The report linked at the start of this thread identifies the main council activities and the minutes of specific council meetings identify several other discussions/activities that took place. The activities of the council were performed as a collective and as such it is neither relevant nor appropriate to quantify the efforts of individual council members. The purpose of preparing the AGM report was to communicate the work done by the council (which was largely administrative and behind the scenes) to the membership. Hopefully, building on the framework put in place last year, the council will be in a position to make a more visual contribution to UKRA in 2014.


Since posting my reply comment to you, as below, I realise that this essentially duplicates Russ's reply to you. I apologise for this mistake on my part, and for any irritation caused. … as the answer to what ask about is, with respect, so obvious, I feel it not inappropriate to point it out to you myself. And which I hope you will not object to me doing. Please read the document UKRA AGM 2013 Agenda and Report in full, and the UKRA Council Meeting

Minutes linked in that document, and all three of the "Centre Of Pressure" issues by UKRA Secretary Jonathan Rhodes, also linked in said document. I would hope that that level of detailed reporting will answer your questions.




Yes, all quite so. But the situation now is that repeatedly not enough UKRA Members are standing for Council each year. So the Council has too few people to accomplish everything that it is mandated to do (which things it does do), along with other things that the Council itself, with the approval of the Membership, would like to do, and other things that the Membership might wish the Council to organise and accomplish. As has been several times pointed out, Council service is a voluntary, part time activity. As reported, the 2013 Council had a lot to deal with, and we focused our efforts on the areas and items identified. That was quite a full workload for the people on the Council. Yes, the Council should deliver leadership and initiatives for the betterment of UKRA and for rocketry in the UK. However, the Council cannot do that fully effectively in isolation from and without the assistance





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and participation of the Membership. Personally, I think we need a more two-way process of Council-Membership co-operation. The above reasons are why the call was made by the Council in April 2013 to the Membership in respect of the National Launch event. It's a not a matter of the Council abrogating its responsibilities and role, but a matter of recognising our practical limitations and seeking to overcome those with the help and involvement of the Membership.


1. What is the trend in full membership, not just in the last year but, say, over the last 5? 2. How can members organise an even when they are not officers of the association and therefore cannot commit the associaton to financial expenditure? This needs to be led by council even if some other members do some of the leg work


Re your Q1, I'm sure that the analysis that you ask about could be done with available archived membership data, perhaps by the present Membership Secretary (Russ Strand) - 'though that's up to Russ and the Council. However, it's a good question. Re your Q2, it seems to me, for some cases (each considered on its merits), that Co-option onto the Council, or Delegation of Powers meet the valid point that you make. Both are provided for in the UKRA Constitution. See the 'Handbook, page 23, 11.1 The Council, ii), and page 24, 11.8 Delegation of Powers. I take your points about expenditure commitment authority (but any significant expenditure

always needs to be approved by Council anyway), and Council leadership. Hope that this meets what you ask about.

John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 19:10.

… If the Safety Code and the Certification Schemes were to be reviewed and improvements in them made (and I would always support that if there's a real case for it), then that needs to be done by experienced and qualified UKRA Members, and they, I would certainly say, have to be UKRA members. If not undertaken by the Council itself (which may at any time be well qualified to do so, consulting more widely as seems useful), Such an effort could be undertaken by a Sub Committee with properly delegated authority from the Council, as is provided for in the UKRA Constitution, and answerable to the Council. The same I would certainly say applies to any and all other changes and developments in UKRA, it's role and purposes, and mode of operation, and standing in relation to the BMFA. The reason that I emphasise the above, is that I get the distinct impression that from time to time, and possibly now, there are one or two who, with I am sure every good intent, want to be given carte blanche to go off and on their sole authority make the changes that they want, with no involvement with or by the UKRA Council (except for the Council to rubber stamp their changes), and no accountability to the Membership of UKRA. It's been said again and again, and I make no apology for repeating this, if you want to help UKRA, as UKRA, either stand for election to the Council, or agree to be Co-opted to the Council, for particular purpose, or serve in your capacities of capability, knowledge and experience on a properly appointed Sub-Committee that has properly Delegated authority. But please, do not expect to be allowed to just go off and "do you own thing", "behind the scenes" - two very ambiguous phrases which, in my judgement and experience, just mean that people want to use UKRA to pursue their own agendas. With regard to UKRA now, and for the future, (and as it ever has been so), to quote Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the American Declaration of Independence in 1776, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately".


… If we want the hobby to grow - Council if you do nothing else you need to promote the Hobby. That could be by turning up at events like Space Day or Brighton Model World and supporting clubs on the stands or even having a separate UKRA stand. Going back in time members of the UKRA provisional committee and early Councils manned stands at County shows and other public events and generated lots of interest. We used to get considerable No’s of spectators turning up and new members at events why – promotion! If you need evidence of why this is reqd look at current and recent membership levels. …




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Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:00.

… There is also an intention to attend launches of as many of the UK clubs as we can, to meet its members and discuss how UKRA (and it's council) can better serve it's members. I look forward to being able to discuss many of the points made here in person.


That Russ is a real step forward in my opinion.

Chris Eilbeck on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:55.

I agree

Dave Beeton on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 23:36.

I whole heartedly agree!





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Appendix K – Forum Posting RE: AOB 4 – Purpose of UKRA

Andy Mell on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 21:34.

If I may interject, as a new member in 2014... this might be helpful in any case, as seen through a fresh pair of eyes. I'm struggling to understand what the benefit of UKRA is to the membership. Surely this alone is what drives existence and membership growth. Most membership organisations will have a statement on the front of website of WHY the organisation exists, and what the bullet pointed benefits are of being a member of said organisation. I have just now been looking at the UKRA website and cannot find this clearly articulated anywhere. Why did I join? I wanted to get a card (and a very nice card it is too!), the ability to get L1 certification and some BMFA insurance. I was also looking for an active online rocket building forum - which doesn't seem to exist here. What other benefits are there? If the organisation is to grow you need to be able to clearly and unequivocally tell people at rocket events whats in it for them. I'm not quite getting this at the moment. Hope that helps, all in a constructive spirit!

Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 23:13.

Andy, The council acknowledges the obsolescence of the website and it is a first priority for this year to overhaul the website, both in terms of content and appearance. As you rightly point out most membership organisations use their websites to clearly articulate it's purpose to the membership. Rest assured this will be rectified soon. As for why UKRA exists and what it gives to the membership, John Bonsor covered this in detail on this forum but I'll reiterate the sailient points again here: - To provide an "enabling and advisory" role for rocketry in the UK, whether that be Model (A to G motors), High Power (H to M motors) or Large (N and greater power motors) rockets. - To provide and maintain a Rocketry Safety Code and Certification Scheme to promote and foster safe launch practices. - To ensure that the BMFA recognises and supports the above such that they will provide insurance cover. - To stay abreast of legislation and guidance from the CAA, HSE etc. to both inform the membership and ensure that the UK rocketry interests are considered. - To bring UK rocketeers together to benefit from eachothers experience and advice. Yes in the past UKRA has been in a position to offer a National Launch event and yes it has had glossy publications to keep the membership abreast of UK rocketry activities, and these are things I personally would love to see come back. As also stated elsewhere on this post, the council has noted that it must focus on stability this year and no doubt we will be looking into making sure the purpose and benefit of UKRA is articulated correctly moving forward. You will notice that the majority of the points I bulleted above are 'behind the scenes' things which are very necessary for the hobby to continue to be possible, but not very overt and obvious to the membership. I hope that you are not too disheartened by your first impressions and will afford us the chance to brush up on our image. It is my hope that you will see a marked improvement over the course of 2014. I wish you the very best of luck for your Level 1 flight and look forward to sending you the certificate in due course.




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Phil Charlesworth on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 20:14.

… The membership benefits need to be identified to attract people like me back. I know, for example, that the subs for FOG give access to a good model rocket range (when its not flooded) with friendly & helpful people who know when its time to stop launching and go to the pub. A FOG member can get BMFA insurance through the club on the day, and will get a say in the AGM, which is held in a pub two minutes from the range. Our few HPR fliers get an invitation to do demonstration launches at Woodspring Wings every July. OK, these are fairly modest member benefits but our annual subs are lower than some clubs' day rates. I think it would help if I would see what I would get for UKRA subs that I can't already get through FOG.

Apart, that is, from a nice looking membership card

Dave Beeton on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 21:59.

I agree with Phil, to some extent, and I know that some of the lads who have joined UKRA as full Junior members have asked me for clarification on what the benefits are as compared to flying under the BMFA banner. With all the brouhaha that was bandied about over the last couple of years, I have to say that I am not totally sure anymore. I was always under the impression that if I wanted to fly HPR then membership of UKRA was mandatory, particularly if I wanted to fly with motors greater than G impulse. Now it seems that I only need to be a member of BMFA and there was even talk of allowing non members, albeit holding an acceptable form of insurance, the facility to undertake certification flights. To some extent that denigrates the standing of my own certification flights and certificates. The only benefit that I can see, at present, is the fact that Tripoli have accepted my UKRA certs and have granted me parallel certification levels so that I can fly in the US whenever I get the chance to cross the pond. When I first started to fly AP motors and needed a storage permit and an "acquire and keep", I had to show evidence of membership of a recognized organization. Since the efforts to rationalise the explosive regulations, I am no longer convinced that it will still be a vital issue. Can someone enlighten me as to the continued benefits of paying the UKRA subsidy, if for nothing else than I can convince my school club members to keep paying theirs.

Phil Charlesworth on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 09:09.

Dave's mention of the cert scheme triggers another related issue. For several years I've held the view that UKRA needs to review its basic structure and role. It's mission statement effectively says that it exists to promote rocketry and to act as BMFA specialist body. The first is the role of a club, the second is a direct role on behalf of BMFA. I think that there is some ambiguity between these roles, resulting in some confusion as to what UKRA is really about. In the early days of UKRA that probably didn't matter too much, but time and circumstances have changed. I'll cite a coupld of examples: It could be argued that the safety code and signficant amounts of the S&T activity are, in effect, activities on behalf of BMFA. If this is correct then the safety code should be appropriate to all BMFA members, so clauses about UKRA disciplinary processes are inappropriate. This is not a criticims of the technical content of the code, which is generally very useful, but of the underlying message that the code presents to the casual reader. The cert scheme is useful, but is it a BMFA requirement or somthing that belongs to the "club" side of UKRA? At the AGM held in IRW a few years ago we formed a sub comittee to look at the purpose and method of the cert scheme but none of its recommendations were adopted. I suspect it was simply ignored by the incoming council. The general view of the sub committee was that the process needed to be tightened, and a process doc was floated to the council for comment. We were undecided about the role of the scheme whether it should be just a proof of competence within the UKRA community or whether, like the BMFA "A" and "B" certs, it should be a requirement before anyone can launch in public (definition of "in public" was obtained from BMFA). There are other examples, but the general theme is that UKRA needs an overhaul to decide how it can be relevant in the future, and where it should focus its effort. Any review of this type will probably have to go back to the constitution and to the BMFA mandate as specialist body and work outwards from there. A dedicated team could conduct a review of this size a year. I recognise that this is not a trivial task but I'll make the same offer to this council as I've made to previous ones. If there is a genuine desire to change then I'll contribute my time and effort, but not until 2015 when I should have finished my current studies.





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… Phil – interesting points ref the Safety Code and Disciplinary process …

John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 19:10. Dear friends and fellow rocketeers. In this comment I am trying to give a useful and relevant response to the posts on this thread by Phil Charlesworth and by Dave Beeton. Over these three posts several points are made, and I'll try to address them all. I apologise for this being a long post, but I'm trying to cover everything that's been said, fully, and with what I believe is necessary emphasis. I hope that all who may be interested will bear with me here. Please, none of these remarks are intended to be personal criticisms, but are given as comments on and criticisms of the substance of what you have had say Phil and Dave. Actually, in your first comment Phil you recognise that the 2013 UKRA Council got the Membership process sorted out, back on track, being properly serviced, and with an improved and more useful UKRA Membership Card that provides more information about UKRA Membership and BMFA Insurance status on it. So that's a plus mark from

you then. However, the bulk of your first comment is about the FOG club situation, site, and activities, and the social side of FOG. You say all that in reference to the FOG subs. Well I'm glad to hear that FOG rocketry and activities are well set up and running along nicely, and I hope that the same applies in their various ways to all the rocketry clubs in the UK. However, I can't see what that's got do with your criticisms of UKRA. It is not, and never has been the job of UKRA to organise and run the internal set-ups and activities of the clubs. It has been and still is UKRA's role to provide an "enabling and advisory" role for rocketry in the UK, that is all power levels of rocketry - Model (A to G motors), High Power (H to M motors) and Large (N and greater power motors)rockets. Is FOG going to go off now and develop it's own Safety Code and Certification Scheme, and then enter into negotiations with the BMFA to get all that, if significantly different from the UKRA standards, accepted for BMFA Insurance? Well FOG could do that if it wanted to, as could any club, but I frankly I can't see the point, unless there is major dissatisfaction or real defects in the UKRA Safety Code and Certification Scheme. If that is or were the case, there are ways of addressing and dealing with such defects, within UKRA -

please see my remarks in second last paragraph below. May I remind you that it was UKRA that devised the Large Rocket Scheme in recent years, and got it accepted by the BMFA. Now I accept that the Large Rocket Scheme is of direct use only to a small number of UK rocketeers, however it does increase the capabilities of UK rocketry overall. I go back to my point, which has been fundamental ever since the meeting at the 1996 IRW that effectively founded UKRA, that UKRA is here for all rocketry, and over the years has been of benefit to all rocketry in the UK, and to all rocketeers who have flown in the enabled environment that UKRA has created. I accept that it was not just UKRA that got the BMFA to recognise Model rocketry. Stuart Lodge and the British Space Modelling Alliance/Association had a lot to with that too. But it was UKRA, and UKRA alone, speaking for all its members, present at the time, and for those who would join in later years, that got the BMFA to recognise and accept for their insurance cover High Power Rocketry, and as I have said, more recently Large Rockets. Frankly I grow weary of the "what has UKRA done for me lately" attitude that now seems to apply in some quarters. If you want an association that ticks all your personal boxes every day of the year, including high days and holidays, that's just unrealistic. People have to take the broader, long term view. Let's be clear, the BMFA does not represent rocketry. It recognises it as a legitimate, in their terms, aeromodel flying activity, or "Space Models" as the BMFA terms rocketry. And the reason that the BMFA recognises rocketry at all its levels, and will insure it, is because UKRA, and only UKRA, has represented all rocketry to them. It is UKRA that owns and runs the HPR and Large Rocket Certification Schemes, not

the BMFA. It is UKRA that owns and promulgates the overall unified Safety Code for rocketry, again, all rocketry, to the benefit of all UKRA Members, whatever level or




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levels of rocketry they fly; quite a few fly Models and HPR, and some also fly Large Rockets, which thanks to the Large Rocket Scheme they can now do in the UK. There's a strong suggestion in your comment Dave, and in your second one Phil, that we are moving into a regulatory situation where we can dispense with UKRA and look to the BMFA and a looser set of certification and insurance arrangements to cover rocketry. This in my view is dangerous nonsense. For example Dave, the reason Tripoli recognises your UKRA Certifications is because they are UKRA Certifications; it's got nothing to do with the BMFA. If anyone thinks that the BMFA will satisfactorily represent and support rocketry without UKRA, they need to think again. Those who forget history, or don't know it, are condemned to suffer its injuries all over again. In 2004 the BMFA made a very determined effort to take over the ownership and running of the whole of rocketry in the UK, under an attempted coup called "SpaceCom". I was one of those who opposed that. UKRA was invited as part of the SpaceCom move to give up its Specialist Body status in the BMFA. Fortunately the UKRA Council of the time declined that invitation. Also fortunately SpaceCom foundered and ran into the sands, partly because of UKRA's strong opposition to it. If however, it had succeeded, I for one am quite convinced, from all that was clearly stated in the SpaceCom prospectus, the BMFA would have shut down all HPR, i.e. withdrawn its insurance cover, and limited rocketry to Model level only, and that coerced into an entirely competition flying activity codified within the strictly ruled disciplines of "Space Models" or "Sport Rocketry". Now I have nothing at all against that area of rocketry, indeed I am impressed by the accomplishments of the rocketeers who fly that kind of rocketry. Also, Stuart Lodge in particular deserves great praise and recognition for his untiring promotion of that area in rocketry in the UK. However, Stuart has never tried or schemed to shut down and prevent in the UK all other forms of rocketry. The BMFA has done so, as you know full well Phil. And in my view, left to their own devices, without a UKRA to speak for all of

UK rocketry that it represents, that's exactly what the BMFA would do. This is not an attack on the BMFA. I fully appreciate the support that they have and are giving to rocketry, and the fact that they provide our insurance cover. But the BMFA is only doing that because of UKRA's past and continuing unified voice speaking for all. Take that away, or allow that voice to fade and die, then you're all on your own, having to negotiate separately with the BMFA. Bluntly, I regard the suggestion that rocketry in the UK can henceforth, or in the near future operate in some quite undefined and amorphous regulatory environment, as suggested in your comment Dave, as dangerous and damaging nonsense. If you want a "Wild West" for rocketry in the UK, that's the way to get that. Phil, I do not see the ambiguity that you suggest in your second comment. I have always taken the view that UKRA Specialist Body for rocketry status in the BMFA is UKRA's "embassy" in and to the BMFA. It does not mean that UKRA is somehow part of the BMFA apparatus and establishment. The BMFA does not own UKRA. We own ourselves, and co-operate and negotiate with the BMFA from that position of strength. As I have said above, we give that up at great peril to rocketry in the UK. To go on to the wider points you make in developing your case Phil, well we can get ourselves tied up in nuances of interpretation of administration and regulation responsibilities, and discuss them until the cows come home, all to no useful effect. UKRA and all UKRA Members need to be clear. UKRA owns the rocketry Safety Code. UKRA owns the HPR and Large Rockets Certification Schemes. UKRA also owns the Model Rocketry Achievement Scheme. The BMFA owns none of these things. It didn't devise them, it doesn't administer them. Range Safety Officers are qualified by UKRA, not by the BMFA. The Safety & Technical Committee is a UKRA Committee , appointed by the UKRA Council, and staffed by qualified UKRA Members. It has nothing to do with the BMFA organisation, and it astonishes me that anyone might think otherwise. What all this means is that when any UKRA Member goes to to any rocket flying meeting anywhere in the UK, they know what the Safety Code to work and fly to is, they know what standards the RSO's are expected to be up to, and they know that everyone else knows all this too. Of course ensuring that all that is kept up to top standard all the time requires vigilance and care. But the point is that these standards exist, and are understood. Move to the looser and more amorphous situation that you seem to see as a potential alternative Dave, and I predict chaos, accidents, and the end of rocketry, certainly as we have all known and enjoyed it these past almost twenty years. UKRA is in partnership with the BMFA. It is not owned by, or acting as an agency of the BMFA.




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Dave, you have just recently succeeded in negotiating with NATS and the CAA an increase in the altitude ceiling at the Black Knights Club site. Which is excellent. It is in part the previous pioneering and development of such co-ordination and arrangements by UKRA Affiliated Clubs, with the CAA, NATS, and local Air Traffic Control Centres (ATC's), enabled because they were UKRA Affiliated Clubs, and the good impression that carries with NATS and the CAA - as I know very well from direct personal experience here in Scotland with SARA and the IRW - that eased your path to getting the higher ceiling for the Black Knights club. The BMFA I believe played a part in getting new clauses covering rocketry written into UK Air Navigation Law some years ago, but so too did the UKRA Safety & Technical Committee. The CAA, NATS and local ATC's recognise UKRA as the legitimate national body for rocketry, albeit partly because of our Affiliation to and Specialist Body status within the BMFA, but by no means entirely so. UKRA is trusted in its own right by the CAA and NATS. That means a great deal to any UKRA Affiliated Club that seeks to successfully negotiate altitude ceilings, as you have recently successfully done. I do agree with you Phil that the UKRA Certification Schemes, and the Safety Code can always be subject to review, reconsideration, change, and development, but only on the basis of real safety and operational requirements and necessities. I was not on the

UKRA Council at the time of the Sub Committee and its recommendations that you mention Phil, though I seem to recall (without going back to the Minutes) that that Sub Committee was agreed at the 2008 or 2009 AGM held at the IRW, either of those years. So, I really can't comment on the history in that regard that you refer to. If the Safety Code and the Certification Schemes were to be reviewed and improvements in them made (and I would always support that if there's a real case for it), then that needs to be done by experienced and qualified UKRA Members, and they, I would certainly say, have to be UKRA members. If not undertaken by the Council itself (which may at any time be well qualified to do so, consulting more widely as seems useful), Such an effort could be undertaken by a Sub Committee with properly delegated authority from the Council, as is provided for in the UKRA Constitution, and answerable to the Council. The same I would certainly say applies to any and all other changes and developments in UKRA, it's role and purposes, and mode of operation, and standing in relation to the BMFA. The reason that I emphasise the above, is that I get the distinct impression that from time to time, and possibly now, there are one or two who, with I am sure every good intent, want to be given carte blanche to go off and on their sole authority make the changes that they want, with no involvement with or by the UKRA Council (except for the Council to rubber stamp their changes), and no accountability to the Membership of UKRA. It's been said again and again, and I make no apology for repeating this, if you want to help UKRA, as UKRA, either stand for election to the Council, or agree to be Co-opted to the Council, for particular purpose, or serve in your capacities of capability, knowledge and experience on a properly appointed Sub-Committee that has properly Delegated authority. But please, do not expect to be allowed to just go off and "do you own thing", "behind the scenes" - two very ambiguous phrases which, in my judgement and experience, just mean that people want to use UKRA to pursue their own agendas. With regard to UKRA now, and for the future, (and as it ever has been so), to quote Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the American Declaration of Independence in 1776, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately". Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:00.

Dave and Phil, John has made several relevant arguments as to why UKRA is important for rocketry and I agree with his position on the matter. However I think it is important that UKRA stays both relevant and up to date. To that end I would like to say that whilst we are not going to be able to detail everything here and now, the council has already taken an action to focus on stability this year. …

Phil Charlesworth on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 19:59.

I tried to write an objective and non-critical assessment of how I perceived the current situation but its obvious that my communications skills are inadequate. In future I'll keep my views to myself to prevent further misinterpretation of my intentions.




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John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 20:48. Dear Phil. Referring you to my previous comments, I merely gave my views on, and appreciation of your assessment. I am a UKRA Member, and a serving Council Member after all. Only part of what I had to say was addressed to your comments. Your communication skills are more than adequate. Any perception of what you characterise as "misinterpretation" of your intentions, lies entirely with you. Dave Beeton on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 21:18.

Thank you for your response John but I think that you have missed my point. I am not, in any way, proposing to go down the line of "What has UKRA done for me" and, as you are well aware, I HAVE gone down the road of trying to represent the sport by volunteering to serve on the Council. I stood down because I found that I needed to be able to concentrate on my full time job at a particularly busy time. I also tried, and failed spectacularly, to take on the Membership role and I take off my hat to Russ for picking up the pieces and getting it back on track. In my earlier post, I am not querying the standing of UKRA against the BMFA or any other organisation. I am pointing out that over the last two or three years there appear to have been moves to reduce or play down the importance of "my national organisation" as a supervisory body, if that's the right way to put it, and I am not very happy about it. If my certification levels are to stand for anything then I want someone to get up and state it or have it properly recognised in the rules for the organisation, as it IS for the BMFA "A" and "B" licences. We SHOULD be expected to keep a logbook of our launches and be able to show that we have practiced what we preach. Why can't there be an official UKRA logbook that can be purchased to be able to show the last time that a particular level was confirmed by a suitable launch. Make it compulsory to have to prove that you are "current" and they would certainly sell! There needs to be a more tangible and regular publication of a magazine or newsletter. I know that's going to cause more rhetoric about editing and the need for time etc etc, but it does not have to be a monthly mag, even a bi-annual broadsheet would be better than we have at the moment. We have a great title, Center of Pressure, put together by our Secretary but, as usual, it needs more support from the membership and clubs. Nearly all clubs have some form of launch report so why can't those get pulled in for publication. The only report that I saw about any of the recent National launch events, apart from IRW, was about the FoR, three years ago, and I had to read about that in an American magazine! What was wrong with offering it to the BMFA for publication, or was it offered and then not used? Why wasn't it published on our own website? Isn't that what it's for? When was the last time that UKRA had some promotional literature printed? Why do we always seem to be scratching round for brochures, cards or posters. We need a central stock that can be purchased or sent out for suitable events. In the past i have had to print off my own brochures and promotional stuff. If that was where some of my subs went I would not need to be asking questions. What happened to the UKRA stickers that used to be sent out with membership cards? Things like that went a long way to promoting the organisation, particularly when putting on displays for Space Day etc. If we are going to promote our sport, we need to be getting those areas under our control. No John - I am not advocating the reduction of the standing of UKRA in any way, far from it. I want to be proud to be a member and be able to point out the benefits and necessity of belonging to my national organisation.




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Chris Eilbeck on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:45.

Dave, I think before we generate more publicity literature, we need to decide what sort of people we're trying to recruit into rocketry. We've tried recruiting from other modelling hobbies e.g. the model engineering show and that's not been particularly successful - people think their aspect of modelling is already the best to be in. We've done a lot of rocket workshops for kids over the years but it seems to me that's only ever a one-off activity to interest the kids, not the start of a hobby. There seemed to be an influx after we did Tomorrow's World back in 2000 and after the Scrapheap/Scrapheap Challenge shows. I'm sure we've picked up people from UK SEDS type of activity but I do recognise the amount of effort it used to take to support student rocketry competitions. I'm not sure where we really should be aiming to recruit people from. Maybe if we can get a story in something like T3, Stuff or Wired magazines, we may be able to pick up some people. My suggestion a couple of years back was if we could get a table or two in the Science Museum and half a dozen rocket geeks for a weekend in the summer hols, we may at least interest some people into coming along to EARS, BK, SERFS launches. I'm still fully prepared to support this. If anyone has any ideas, please put them forward. If we can get membership numbers up, the effort to produce newsletters, publicity etc. all becomes less onerous on the few of us left.

Mitch Hamilton on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 17:38.

I sometime listem to Simon Mayo - Radio 2 on a Friday , 5pm onwards. He has a slot - "The Friday fixture " . Where people get to promote their unusual sport or pastime. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/simon-mayo/contact/friday-fixture/


"There needs to be a more tangible and regular publication of a magazine or newsletter" It's interesting that at the last agm i attended which was prb 2010 or 11 the members dicussed what was then 10,9,8 and whether it was now needed due to the speed and proliferation of photos,articles etc now online and difficulty in getting articles from members. Chas as chair proposed to cancel the magazine which im sure went through, so i was surprised that the year book suddenly appeared and though i have contributed some pics and an article im not shocked that there has been provblems getting enough content. I do hope that Pete can pick up the batton and get content and i implore members to help him get it out this year as it was a promised benefit but i do think it will struggle this year, i think that regular news update and flight / event report section on the website would be great especially the publuc facing pages.






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John Bonsor (UKRA Council) on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 03:46.

Dear Dave. Thank you indeed for your clarification on your previous comment here. I do apologise if my response seemed to you to be a misinterpretation of what you said. However, I did respond to the way that your previous comment - Tend to Concur - read to me. I

understand now that what you were expressing is your concern about an apparent decline in the perceived relevance of UKRA. And it is exactly to that percieved decline that I am about speaking against, and making the case for reversing. But also saying that, I think that some of that may be more in perception than in reality. However, that's not to the exclusion of recognition of where UKRA may be capable of improvement. Please see my comments in the fourth paragraph after this one. I'm just trying to acquire as accurate an assessment of the realities and misapprehensions as I can get and communicate here. I am entirely happy Dave, indeed rather relieved, to accept all that you say in your "'Clarification" comment, in its entirety, and without demur. Of course I fully recognise your service on the UKRA Council, and in other ways to UKRA, and to rocketry in the UK. I was never in doubt about that. Going on from those remarks Dave, you make a good suggestion about how to reinforce Certification "currency" verification, i.e. your log book proposal. I do know that some, possibly most, UKRA flyers keep their own personal records of their rocket flights anyway, apart from Flight Registration Cards (FRC's). I certainly keep my own personal rocketry logs. (Which run to quite a few

note books now! Some old enough to be "slightly foxed" ). So, keeping a standard log book would for many UKRA rocketeers be, I imagine, an adaptation and extension of their own flight record keeping. Your points and ideas on the publications side of UKRA, both reporting and promotional, are all excellent, and I would commend all of that for consideration with a view to practical implementation to the Council upon which I currently serve. Apropos your closing remark in your comment, to which this is my reply Dave. Never mind "tending" to concur, I wholeheartedly agree.


… If we want the hobby to grow - Council if you do nothing else you need to promote the Hobby. That could be by turning up at events like Space Day or Brighton Model World and supporting clubs on the stands or even having a separate UKRA stand. Going back in time members of the UKRA provisional committee and early Councils manned stands at County shows and other public events and generated lots of interest. We used to get considerable No’s of spectators turning up and new members at events why – promotion! If you need evidence of why this is reqd look at current and recent membership levels. On the subject of promoting the hobby - At the upcoming BIS Cosford IV conference I have been asked whether there is someone interested in giving a talk on hobby rocketry through the 80’s to the present. My plan is to contact Stuart Lodge however anyone here interested? …




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Appendix L – Forum Posting RE: AOB 5 – UKRA Website Overhaul

Andy Mell on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 21:34.

… Most membership organisations will have a statement on the front of website of WHY the organisation exists, and what the bullet pointed benefits are of being a member of said organisation. I have just now been looking at the UKRA website and cannot find this clearly articulated anywhere. Russ Strand (UKRA Chair) on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 23:13.

Andy, The council acknowledges the obsolescence of the website and it is a first priority for this year to overhaul the website, both in terms of content and appearance. As you rightly point out most membership organisations use their websites to clearly articulate it's purpose to the membership. Rest assured this will be rectified soon.


… i think that regular news update and flight / event report section on the website would be great especially the publuc facing pages.




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Appendix M – Forum Posting RE: AOB 6 – Membership Involvement in the

AGM


Can I suggest that a link to this is put on the front page of the website and, possibly, that an email shot is also sent to maximise involvement of the members in the AGM?


An email shot was sent Chris, did you not see it? I have put something up tonight on the front page.


Nope, not had anything from UKRA since confirmation of my membership renewal

Damian Burrin on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 20:12.

No me neither Russ - I only noticed the AGM as I get a daily archive of posts to the forums


I've forwarded you both the email again. Could it have found it's way into a SPAM box?


Just got it. Thanks Damian Burrin on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:24.

Russ, Not in any of my mail folders. Ive done a quick pole on the fb group and it would seem that members have recieved it but over a range of a few days so maybe its just delayed. Recieved the new one though


… AGM venues – How many times are we going to have to re-learn this! Separate AGM’s are never going to be a realistic option. AGM’s to attract an attendance by the membership or the council for that matter need to happen at an event of interest/value to the membership otherwise people can’t/wont justify turning up! So assuming this online version turns out not to be popular they need to be at flying events or some event which might attract members to attend for instance we had an AGM at an event at Waltham abbey in the past and room at Space Day was offered as was time at a BK flying session!

Appendix N – Forum Posting RE: AOB 7 – UKRA Liaison with BMFA


… UKRA needs to work closely with the BMFA to ensure we don’t have misunderstandings. Wherever possible administrative tasks should be off loaded to the BMFA. …




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Appendix O – Forum Posting for Close of AGM


I would like to thank everyone who has participated in the AGM on behalf of the council. The AGM is now closedmand no further comments/questions will be taken. There has been a lot of useful discussion and we will endeavor to capture the information into a concise set of minutes which will be circulated in due course. I think this method of holding an AGM has been very useful and has enabled open discussion, the council will discuss how we can incorporate this type of exchange into future AGMs. In closing I would like to wish everyone an excellent contrail filled year and I look forward to meeting many of you in person at one of the many Rocketry events of the 2014 calendar. I'll leave you with a little light hearted prayer I wrote to the Rocket Gods: Our forefathers who have been to orbit, Hallowed be thy rockets. When launch day comes, Rocketry shall be done, max altitude is never above the NOTAM. Give us this day loads of AP and forgive us our builds with negative static margins, as we forgive ourselves for setting the wrong ejection delay. Lead us not into bad weather, but deliver us from the CATO. For thine is the burn time, the impulse and the safe recovery, Forever and ever Heads Up! Russ Strand UKRA# 1441 L3 RSO Chair




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Appendix P – Complete Unabridged AGM Forum Posting

2013 AGM

Submitted by UKRA on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 12:15.

The UKRA council welcomes you to the 2013 AGM post.

The council has decided to trial this online AGM. The Agenda and Council report can be found here:

UKRA 2013 AGM Agenda and Report Document

If you have Any Other Business (AOB), a question regarding the report content or simply just something UKRA related that you would like the council or membership to address, please add a comment. If your comment or question relates to a section of the report, please include the relevant section number in your post.

This post will be open for comments until 20:00 on Friday 7th February. After which time the AGM will be closed and the minutes will be produced and circulated to the membership shortly afterwards.

The council looks forward to speaking with many of you over the next week.

The UKRA Council

UKRA Event What are the

Submitted by Damian Burrin - OSR on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 17:54.

UKRA Event

What are the plans for a ukra national event in 2014? I acknowledge the dissapointing attendance at previous events however UKRA could organise a "smaller" more cost effective event without the huge marque and bar as a way of encouraging flyers to meet and talk to other flyers and even council members.

Previous recent events have not been well promoted or pushed by council with the last ukra event not even making to the ukra news or banner page until very late.

Damian

Damian Burrin UKRA 1159 LARF

Old School Rocketeer There are 10 people in this world Those that understand binary and those that don't

I agree with Damian. There

Submitted by Chris Eilbeck on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 18:47.

I agree with Damian. There must be a UKRA national event if we are not to wither and die. It doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be elaborate but it does have to be promoted outside of the dwindling current membership.



http://www.ukra.org.uk/files/UKRA_AGM_2013_Agenda_and_Report.pdf

http://www.ukra.org.uk/node/2711#comment-8761






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Re: I agree with Damian. There

Submitted by John Bonsor on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 19:30.

Dear Chris.

The points that Russ (UKRA Chair) makes in response to your comments and Damian's about continuing the National Launch event are entirely relevant.

However, should there be another National Launch event (and personally I do see quite some merit in that, but again we must be fully informed by all previous experiences, good and bad, with this event, going all the way back to 1997), I do agree with your point that such an event should be strongly promoted outside of the current UKRA Membership. However, the event itself should be organised and structured in such a way as to try to really gain new participants to rocketry in the UK and new UKRA Members, and in that respect it should perhaps be part of a wider effort for those purposes.

Yours ever,

John B, UKRA Council, UKRA 1023.

Call for Assistance


Damian and Chris,

Whilst I agree with you both that it would be good to see the resurrection of the UKRA National event, I do not agree that UKRA is going to "wither and die" without one, last year we had 65 new members join UKRA, that is a 7.8% increase on the total number of people UKRA had on its books in 2012. I think that the 'need' for a National Event is not felt as strongly by all the membership. I would like to invite those that do feel strongly about this post here so that we can fully understand the membership's thoughts on this matter.

Organising a National Event is no small undertaking and I do not believe that this should be left entirely to the Council. Last year we called upon the membership for volunteers to help us organise an event and no help was forthcoming. You two seem very passionate about this, can we count on you to help with a 2014 event?

Russ Chair UKRA#1441 L3 RSO

Russ, you miss the point.


Russ, you miss the point. It's not about the organisation, it's about telling people it's gonna happen!

Damian, I apologise for any


Damian,

I apologise for any miss-understanding. The 2012 AGM agenda action point, said that the 2013 council would look into a National Event, not that we would provide one. The council were not in a position at that time to be able to deliver an event by ourselves. Without the man-power to deliver an event, it is not possible to provide one, hence the call to the membership for assistance.












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It is likely that a similar situation will occur in 2014, we would very much appreciate any help you can provide.

Russ

Russ, That wasn't the


Russ,

That wasn't the question Russ. I was simply asking if council plan on organising one. I guess from your response the answer is no unless a member steps forward to do it for council.



ACTION POINT FOR 2014 NATIONAL EVENT

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Fri, 31/01/2014 - 20:06.

Damian,

The answer is definitely not no. The council has not yet had a chance to discuss this either way. Without conferring with the whole council I cannot at this point state if UKRA will provide an event. I will however take an action point in the same guise as last year's AGM,

i.e. AP: UKRA will look into the possibility of providing a National Event in 2014.

Our next council meeting is Monday night and so I will ensure that this is given proper consideration.

Russ

John When i served on


John


Damian












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Re: John, when I served on


Dear Damian.

Yes, all quite so.

But the situation now is that repeatedly not enough UKRA Members are standing for Council each year. So the Council has too few people to accomplish everything that it is mandated to do (which things it does do), along with other things that the Council itself, with the approval of the Membership, would like to do, and other things that the Membership might wish the Council to organise and accomplish. As has been several times pointed out, Council service is a voluntary, part time activity. As reported, the 2013 Council had a lot to deal with, and we focused our efforts on the areas and items identified. That was quite a full workload for the people on the Council.

Yes, the Council should deliver leadership and initiatives for the betterment of UKRA and for rocketry in the UK. However, the Council cannot do that fully effectively in isolation from and without the assistance and participation of the Membership. Personally, I think we need a more two-way process of Council-Membership co-operation.

The above reasons are why the call was made by the Council in April 2013 to the Membership in respect of the National Launch event.

It's a not a matter of the Council abrogating its responsibilities and role, but a matter of recognising our practical limitations and seeking to overcome those with the help and involvement of the Membership.

Yours ever,


1. What is the trend in full

Submitted by Chris Eilbeck on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 18:43.

1. What is the trend in full membership, not just in the last year but, say, over the last 5?

2. How can members organise an even when they are not officers of the association and therefore cannot commit the associaton to financial expenditure? This needs to be led by council even if some other members do some of the leg work

How about a vote?

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 19:26.

Chris,

I don't think anyone was ever saying that a non-council member would organise an event in isolation, the council were simply asking for some extra help.

I think we've covered this in significant detail now, I would like to suggest we draw discussion on a National Event to a close. APs have been taken and therefore this will be discussed and reported back on.

I do think it is worth understanding what motivation for a National Event exists from all the membership and so I propose an email vote with simply YES (I would like to see a National UKRA event in 2014), NO (I have no strong desire to see a National UKRA Event in 2014) and NEUTRAL (I am neither passionately for nor against a National UKRA Event IN 2014).

Would someone care to second?










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Russ Strand UKRA# 1441 L3 RSO Chair

Re: How about a vote?

Submitted by John Bonsor on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 08:20.

Dear Russ.

I am happy to second your motion for a vote on the National Event question, in the terms that you state in the third paragraph of your post on this.

The result of such a vote, if it gets a good "turn out", would help to inform Council discussion, action, and leadership on this matter.

Even if the vote attracts very little response, that would still tell us something.

Yours ever,


ACTION POINT

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:23.

Thanks John,

AP: An email vote regarding a 2014 National UKRA Event will be circulated to the membership to gauge the motivation and interest in holding one.


Russ Can i suggest a poll on

Submitted by Damian Burrin - OSR on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:30.

Russ

Can i suggest a poll on the members section of the website rather than an email vote.



How about both?

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:41.

How about both and the website poll numbers are only counted in the case where an email response has not been provided?












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Up to you Russ - Just


Up to you Russ - Just thought that with a poll people can see what the interest level is straight away. I'm happy either way. Oh by the way I've just received an email from UKRA with the event details so you've either sent it again or it was delayed and has just arrived.

It of course could be a syncing issue with my phone as well

Damian Damian Burrin UKRA 1159 LARF


Re: 1. What is the trend in full

Submitted by John Bonsor on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 23:09.

Dear Chris.

Re your Q1, I'm sure that the analysis that you ask about could be done with available archived membership data, perhaps by the present Membership Secretary (Russ Strand) - 'though that's up to Russ and the Council. However, it's a good question.

Re your Q2, it seems to me, for some cases (each considered on its merits), that Co-option onto the Council, or Delegation of Powers meet the valid point that you make. Both are provided for in the UKRA Constitution. See the 'Handbook, page 23, 11.1 The Council, ii), and page 24, 11.8 Delegation of Powers. I take your points

about expenditure commitment authority (but any significant expenditure always needs to be approved by Council anyway), and Council leadership.

Hope that this meets what you ask about.

Yours ever.


Re: UKRA Event What are the


Dear Damian.

First of all, just for clarification, both for yourself and all other UKRA Members, it has been agreed by the Council that all Council Members can respond individually to all comments posted for the 2013 AGM conducted on-line. Hence my individual response here (and not "through the Chair" as it would be in a face-to-face AGM).

Taking your comment under the Agenda AOB, which I think is the appropriate place for it -










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The situation as regards a UKRA National launch event in 2014 remains the same as stated in the relevant paragraph in the "UKRA AGM 2013 Agenda and Report" - see page 2, 3.1 Actions arising from the 2012 AGM, see fifth Action - that is, that there are at present no plans for such an event.

Effectively your comment here is the first response, so far as I can recall, to the call in April 2013, mentioned in the above Action, to Members for expression of interest in and willingness to take the initiative, with Council

support, on the continuation of a UKRA National Launch event. Therefore Damian, I'd be interested, as I am sure many others would be, to hear a bit more about your ideas on this and what you would be prepared to do yourself to help such an undertaking along?

With regard to your comment about what you perceive as lack of promotion of previous National Launch events, and I think you are particularly referring to the Festival of Rocketry in 2011 and in 2012, personally I'd rather not comment on that. I can however say that the members of the current Council have a good understanding of the shortcomings that you allude to, and other problems that there were with the Festival of Rocketry event, which did however, also have some successes in both years. These are lessons valuable to any future National Launch event,

Yours ever,

John B, UKRA Council Member, UKRA 1023.

Firstly John let me



Thirdly i allude to nothing, for what ever reason the last two events were not promoted am i not allowed to ask why or suggest that future events could be better promoted to both members and the public.

As for what am I prepared to do. The same as always. Help promote it through generating discussion, offer my time at the event as rso, front desk. Arrive the day before as always and help setup as well as usually helping with tear down if I am able. But probably most importantly of all actually turn up despite the weather because someone spent time to organise it on my behalf. What do others plan on doing? What do our council members plan ob doing? If ukra are truly interested in my ideas. I'd say go back to basics. Work with a club, use their luanch site and facilities but hold it a weekend or a single day when it's not their club launch so it feels like a distinct event. Forget marques and tables but get people interested, start and enguage threads about the event, drum up a buzz. Let the local media know.

Did anyone from council follow up the offer of use of the old ukra site but access from the other side I passed these details on a cpl of years ago and never heard of a anything back. I also passed details of hibaldstow sky diving club who seemed aimable to supporting a launch if we could work round their events. Did anyone contact them?



Details









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Damian,

I was not aware of these details, please can you supply them again. My UKRA email address is russ.strand-at-the ukra web address. I will see that these options are looked into.


Russ, I no longer have the


Russ,

I no longer have the number for the farmer but we used the land foir long enough so there will be records i'm sure. The origional land owner of the Heckington site had passed details via ex member Graham Platt the fact he was still willing to allow ukra fly from this site still but we would need to access via the other village where the old house is. I passed the details to ukra at the time. Was Jim chair then?

I will email you the hibaldstow details Damian Damian Burrin UKRA 1159 LARF


Thanks Damian, we will try


Thanks Damian, we will try to follow up with Graham Platt or failing that look into the records.

Russ

AP: The Council will attempt to contact Graham Platt for information regarding the owner of the previous Heckington launch site and contact Hibaldstow airfield as part of the considerations for a National Event in 2014.

Firstly John let me



Thirdly i allude to nothing, for what ever reason the last two events were not promoted am i not allowed to ask why or suggest that future events could be better promoted to both members and the public.

As for what am I prepared to do. The same as always. Help promote it through generating discussion, offer my time at the event as rso, front desk. Arrive the day before as always and help setup as well as usually helping with tear down if I am able. But probably most importantly of all actually turn up despite the weather because someone spent time to organise it on my behalf. What do others plan on doing? What do our council members plan ob doing? If ukra are truly interested in my ideas. I'd say go back to basics. Work with a club, use their luanch site and facilities but hold it a weekend or a single day when it's not their club launch so it feels like a distinct event. Forget










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marques and tables but get people interested, start and enguage threads about the event, drum up a buzz. Let the local media know.

Did anyone from council follow up the offer of use of the old ukra site but access from the other side I passed these details on a cpl of years ago and never heard of a anything back. I also passed details of hibaldstow sky diving club who seemed aimable to supporting a launch if we could work round their events. Did anyone contact them?



Re: Firstly John let me


Dear Damian.

Assurance.

Let me in turn assure you that I did not take your comment personally. I took your comment to be general within the compass of the question about viable organisation of, promotion of, and future for an annual National Launch event. My response was intended to be similarly general within the same question compass.

Your help with National Launch events, future and past.

I note, appreciate, and fully accept all that you say about the practical assistance that you stand ready to give to any future National Launch events (which assistance you have rendered in the past), on the "days of the race", so to speak. I also understand what that preparedness represents in regard to how you see the role of the Council, and the Membership of UKRA in relation to a National Launch event.

Promotion of past National Launch events.

You are of course entirely entitled to ask about what you perceive as a lack of adequate and timely promotion of the 2011 and 2012 Festivals of Rocketry to the UKRA Membership and more widely. I was not seeking to be evasive in not responding to that question. Others, in a position to do so, may wish to speak on your question here. However, the fact is that, particularly in respect of the 2012 Festival of Rocketry, I believe, from long experience, that it would be potentially unhelpfully contentious for me, and I mean me particularly, to speak to what I think was the core problem with that event.

The UKRA Council and the Festival of Rocketry, personally and generally.

I had, as a member of the 2011 and 2012 Councils, some, I believe helpful, input to the development of the Festival of Rocketry (FoR) efforts to revive the UKRA National Launch event. I also directly added to the wider publicity for the 2011 FoR, which I know directly was effective in drawing in public attendance at that event. Also, as you may recall, Bobby Wark and I were there with the "Rockets To Go!" workshop programme, which was very busy, with members of the public building and flying model rockets, on both days. At the 2012 FoR the public rocket workshop sessions were provided and run by Pete Barrett, as was quite proper as that FoR was hosted, and substantially arranged and run, at their preference, by EARS, and hosted at the EARS Elsworth site. I mention this history only as one example of one Council Member's very direct involvement in the creation, organisation, promotion, and direct practical "on the day of the race" contribution, to the most recent UKRA National Launch events. Added to that, other members of the 2011 and 2012 Councils were actually far more involved in the respective FoR's than I was. For the 2011 event, Ben Jarvis, James MacFarlane, Charles Simpson, and Martyn Turner in particular put in a great deal of demonstrably effective effort, greater than mine. The support of the Black Knight's Club, and the hosting of the 2011 FoR at their Oxhill site, was of course of great material assistance.

My question to you about a future for a National Launch event.

My question to you about organising future National Launch events was not about your "day of the race" practical assistance, but rather your thoughts and ideas on the form and advance organisation of any such future events. In several of your comments on this thread, you have in fact made some good suggestions in that regard, which I for one appreciate, and which I think merit consideration.






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Resolved.

In fact with your constructive responses to the question that I put to you, Chris's comments, and Russ's response, as UKRA Chair, in posting an Action Point about a National Launch event in 2014, the discussion has had a

definite and positive result, upon which we can all build and advance.

Apology.

I apologise for the delay in this response from me. I had to go out mid-Friday evening, and did not get home 'til quite late.

Yours ever,


John I have not limited my

Submitted by Damian Burrin - OSR on Sat, 01/02/2014 - 11:06.

John I have not limited my time in the past to on the day suport when we had event in lincolshire I was able to directly be involved with the organising and preparatipn of the event and this continued while I was on counci and after. There were many other members that did to. I still strongly believe it is a council role to organise and lead such an event.

The difference is that then ukra had an event site these are days long gone. If ukra council organised the event and administeated it well enough in advance it could then rely on members 'local' to the event to do the manual labour as it was in the past. Memberships can't organise it, it needs to be lead. Graham Platt and Charles were very good at this.

How about this.

Ukra council proactivly speak to a club and fix a date for an event. Publish it well in advance, promote it but for it to go ahead make it clear that specific jobs need to be completed, lead, provide a list of jobs and support the volunteers in doing it. Provide the host club a fixed budget to work too. If money is an issue then make the event pre registered only. If flyers want an event make them pay a £10 deposit, the event only goes forward if enough members express an interest. The deposits could be returnable if the minimum has not been met and the organisation doesn't begin until it has. You are then offsetting tbe risk and putting the onus on us. Here is the event you want it to go ahead we need 30 pre registered members by x date. Publish updates, whats been done which members have registered. I remember going to a ukra event only because I new Ben Jarvis was going, before I knew wbo he was I just wanted to see the bloody big rocket I'd heard he was bringing. Pre reg members could even get a discount to those paying on the gate.

What do you think? Damian Burrin UKRA 1159 LARF


Re: John I have not limited my


Dear Damian.

In brief reply, as per your paragraphs.








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1. I've not been questioning your involvement in assistance to and organising previous UKRA National Launch events, as a Council Member, or not.

2. As you say.

3. As Russ has stated in his AP about a National Launch Event (NLE) this year, we will be discussing this at the Council Meeting on Monday evening. All ideas, suggestions, proposals, and offers re the NLE possibility, your's, and those of any other UKRA Members, will be considered.

Re, "What do you think?", it's not just what I think, it's what the rest of the Council thinks too. You've made it clear that you want the Council to take the lead here. Well, in that case you need to let us act as a Council, as we will on Monday evening.

Yours ever,


Excellent - i look forward


Excellent - i look forward to reading the outcome.

The "ask what you think" was as the most senior council member with problaby the most experience in being involved in organising events on similar scale, ie ukra, klob, irw and big range i was asking what you thought of the method, do you think it would work. But as you i would like the council to lead so i'll leave it at that and will wait for you to meet. Can i suggest though that other members might have some comments regarding this so might make sense to leave council discussion until after the agm has closed - unless i am truly the only member that wants to engauge in discussion



Membership benefits?

Submitted by Andy Mell on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 21:34.

If I may interject, as a new member in 2014... this might be helpful in any case, as seen through a fresh pair of eyes.

I'm struggling to understand what the benefit of UKRA is to the membership. Surely this alone is what drives existence and membership growth.

Most membership organisations will have a statement on the front of website of WHY the organisation exists, and what the bullet pointed benefits are of being a member of said organisation. I have just now been looking at the UKRA website and cannot find this clearly articulated anywhere.

Why did I join? I wanted to get a card (and a very nice card it is too!), the ability to get L1 certification and some BMFA insurance. I was also looking for an active online rocket building forum - which doesn't seem to exist here. What other benefits are there? If the organisation is to grow you need to be able to clearly and unequivocally tell people at rocket events whats in it for them. I'm not quite getting this at the moment.

Hope that helps, all in a constructive spirit!








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If I may...

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 23:13.

Andy,

The council acknowledges the obsolescence of the website and it is a first priority for this year to overhaul the website, both in terms of content and appearance. As you rightly point out most membership organisations use their websites to clearly articulate it's purpose to the membership. Rest assured this will be rectified soon.

As for why UKRA exists and what it gives to the membership, John Bonsor covered this in detail on this forum but I'll reiterate the sailient points again here:

- To provide an "enabling and advisory" role for rocketry in the UK, whether that be Model (A to G motors), High Power (H to M motors) or Large (N and greater power motors) rockets.

- To provide and maintain a Rocketry Safety Code and Certification Scheme to promote and foster safe launch practices.

- To ensure that the BMFA recognises and supports the above such that they will provide insurance cover.

- To stay abreast of legislation and guidance from the CAA, HSE etc. to both inform the membership and ensure that the UK rocketry interests are considered.

- To bring UK rocketeers together to benefit from eachothers experience and advice.

Yes in the past UKRA has been in a position to offer a National Launch event and yes it has had glossy publications to keep the membership abreast of UK rocketry activities, and these are things I personally would love to see come back. As also stated elsewhere on this post, the council has noted that it must focus on stability this year and no doubt we will be looking into making sure the purpose and benefit of UKRA is articulated correctly moving forward. You will notice that the majority of the points I bulleted above are 'behind the scenes' things which are very necessary for the hobby to continue to be possible, but not very overt and obvious to the membership.

I hope that you are not too disheartened by your first impressions and will afford us the chance to brush up on our image. It is my hope that you will see a marked improvement over the course of 2014.

I wish you the very best of luck for your Level 1 flight and look forward to sending you the certificate in due course.


AGM 9.1 UKRA 2013 Yearbook

Submitted by Peter Barrett on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 19:39.

HI all,

firstly thankyou to everyone that has so far sent me articles for the yearbook about your great rockets. unfortunately apart from getting launch dates for Black Nights for 2014 I have not received any of the following

- Someone from each club to supply some details of your flying site and contact details etc. - Someone from each club to supply flying dates for 2014. - Stories / articles on an interesting flight / day. - Reports from big events in 2013, i.e. Big Ears, IRW, Midland Sky, etc. - 2013 HPR L1, L2, L3 certification articles and photos. - Tips on rocket building or how to do something, - Reviews on altimeters, trackers etc.








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If this yearbook is going to be made, I really need articles about events that happened in 2013 as thats what is supposed to be a YEAR BOOK

Please send any information ASAP to [email protected].

I even e-mailed the complete UKRA membership and only got 2 replies.

Surely if we want UKRA to be bigger and better and we need to advertise it. so a few people must have written articles for local newspapers etc.

if I dont get anything soon, I suggest we forget the yearbook for 2013 and concentrate on doing a proper one for 2014

If so can I please ask people to make notes / short reports for each meeting etc for this year and send a copy to me

thanks

Pete

Role and relevance of UKRA.

Submitted by John Bonsor on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 19:10.

Dear friends and fellow rocketeers.

In this comment I am trying to give a useful and relevant response to the posts on this thread by Phil Charlesworth - Comment from a non-member & An interesting point, and by Dave Beeton - Tend to Concur. Over these three posts several points are made, and I'll try to address them all.

I apologise for this being a long post, but I'm trying to cover everything that's been said, fully, and with what I believe is necessary emphasis. I hope that all who may be interested will bear with me here.

Please, none of these remarks are intended to be personal criticisms, but are given as comments on and criticisms of the substance of what you have had say Phil and Dave.

Actually, in your first comment Phil you recognise that the 2013 UKRA Council got the Membership process sorted out, back on track, being properly serviced, and with an improved and more useful UKRA Membership Card that provides more information about UKRA Membership and BMFA Insurance status on it. So that's a plus

mark from you then. However, the bulk of your first comment is about the FOG club situation, site, and activities, and the social side of FOG. You say all that in reference to the FOG subs. Well I'm glad to hear that FOG rocketry and activities are well set up and running along nicely, and I hope that the same applies in their various ways to all the rocketry clubs in the UK. However, I can't see what that's got do with your criticisms of UKRA. It is not, and never has been the job of UKRA to organise and run the internal set-ups and activities of the clubs.

It has been and still is UKRA's role to provide an "enabling and advisory" role for rocketry in the UK, that is all power levels of rocketry - Model (A to G motors), High Power (H to M motors) and Large (N and greater power motors)rockets. Is FOG going to go off now and develop it's own Safety Code and Certification Scheme, and then enter into negotiations with the BMFA to get all that, if significantly different from the UKRA standards, accepted for BMFA Insurance? Well FOG could do that if it wanted to, as could any club, but I frankly I can't see the point, unless there is major dissatisfaction or real defects in the UKRA Safety Code and Certification Scheme. If that is or were the case, there are ways of addressing and dealing with such defects, within UKRA - please see my remarks in second last paragraph below. May I remind you that it was UKRA that devised the Large Rocket Scheme in recent years, and got it accepted by the BMFA. Now I accept that the Large Rocket Scheme is of direct use only to a small number of UK rocketeers, however it does increase the capabilities of UK rocketry overall. I go back to my point, which has been fundamental ever since the meeting at the 1996 IRW that effectively founded UKRA, that UKRA is here for all rocketry, and over the years has been of benefit to all rocketry in the UK, and to all rocketeers who have flown in the enabled environment that UKRA has created. I accept that it was not just UKRA that got the BMFA to recognise Model rocketry. Stuart Lodge and the British Space Modelling Alliance/Association had a lot to with that too. But it was UKRA, and UKRA alone, speaking for


mailto:[email protected]





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all its members, present at the time, and for those who would join in later years, that got the BMFA to recognise and accept for their insurance cover High Power Rocketry, and as I have said, more recently Large Rockets.

Frankly I grow weary of the "what has UKRA done for me lately" attitude that now seems to apply in some quarters. If you want an association that ticks all your personal boxes every day of the year, including high days and holidays, that's just unrealistic. People have to take the broader, long term view. Let's be clear, the BMFA does not represent rocketry. It recognises it as a legitimate, in their terms, aeromodel flying activity, or "Space Models" as the BMFA terms rocketry. And the reason that the BMFA recognises rocketry at all its levels, and will insure it, is because UKRA, and only UKRA, has represented all rocketry to them.

It is UKRA that owns and runs the HPR and Large Rocket Certification Schemes, not the BMFA. It is UKRA that owns and promulgates the overall unified Safety Code for rocketry, again, all rocketry, to the benefit of all UKRA Members, whatever level or levels of rocketry they fly; quite a few fly Models and HPR, and some also fly Large Rockets, which thanks to the Large Rocket Scheme they can now do in the UK.

There's a strong suggestion in your comment Dave, and in your second one Phil, that we are moving into a regulatory situation where we can dispense with UKRA and look to the BMFA and a looser set of certification and insurance arrangements to cover rocketry. This in my view is dangerous nonsense. For example Dave, the reason Tripoli recognises your UKRA Certifications is because they are UKRA Certifications; it's got nothing to do with the BMFA. If anyone thinks that the BMFA will satisfactorily represent and support rocketry without UKRA, they need to think again. Those who forget history, or don't know it, are condemned to suffer its injuries all over again. In 2004 the BMFA made a very determined effort to take over the ownership and running of the whole of rocketry in the UK, under an attempted coup called "SpaceCom". I was one of those who opposed that. UKRA was invited as part of the SpaceCom move to give up its Specialist Body status in the BMFA. Fortunately the UKRA Council of the time declined that invitation. Also fortunately SpaceCom foundered and ran into the sands, partly because of UKRA's strong opposition to it. If however, it had succeeded, I for one am quite convinced, from all that was clearly stated in the SpaceCom prospectus, the BMFA would have shut down all HPR, i.e. withdrawn its insurance cover, and limited rocketry to Model level only, and that coerced into an entirely competition flying activity codified within the strictly ruled disciplines of "Space Models" or "Sport Rocketry". Now I have nothing at all against that area of rocketry, indeed I am impressed by the accomplishments of the rocketeers who fly that kind of rocketry. Also, Stuart Lodge in particular deserves great praise and recognition for his untiring promotion of that area in rocketry in the UK. However, Stuart has never tried or schemed to shut down and prevent in the UK all other forms of rocketry. The BMFA has done so, as you know full well Phil. And in my view, left to their own devices, without a UKRA to speak for all of UK rocketry that it represents, that's exactly what the BMFA

would do. This is not an attack on the BMFA. I fully appreciate the support that they have and are giving to rocketry, and the fact that they provide our insurance cover. But the BMFA is only doing that because of UKRA's past and continuing unified voice speaking for all. Take that away, or allow that voice to fade and die, then you're all on your own, having to negotiate separately with the BMFA.

Bluntly, I regard the suggestion that rocketry in the UK can henceforth, or in the near future operate in some quite undefined and amorphous regulatory environment, as suggested in your comment Dave, as dangerous and damaging nonsense. If you want a "Wild West" for rocketry in the UK, that's the way to get that.

Phil, I do not see the ambiguity that you suggest in your second comment. I have always taken the view that UKRA Specialist Body for rocketry status in the BMFA is UKRA's "embassy" in and to the BMFA. It does not mean that UKRA is somehow part of the BMFA apparatus and establishment. The BMFA does not own UKRA. We own ourselves, and co-operate and negotiate with the BMFA from that position of strength. As I have said above, we give that up at great peril to rocketry in the UK. To go on to the wider points you make in developing your case Phil, well we can get ourselves tied up in nuances of interpretation of administration and regulation responsibilities, and discuss them until the cows come home, all to no useful effect. UKRA and all UKRA Members need to be clear. UKRA owns the rocketry Safety Code. UKRA owns the HPR and Large Rockets Certification Schemes. UKRA also owns the Model Rocketry Achievement Scheme. The BMFA owns none of these things. It didn't devise them, it doesn't administer them. Range Safety Officers are qualified by UKRA, not by the BMFA. The Safety & Technical Committee is a UKRA Committee , appointed by the UKRA Council, and staffed by qualified UKRA Members. It has nothing to do with the BMFA organisation, and it astonishes me that anyone might think otherwise. What all this means is that when any UKRA Member goes to to any rocket flying meeting anywhere in the UK, they know what the Safety Code to work and fly to is, they know what standards the RSO's are expected to be up to, and they know that everyone else knows all this too. Of course ensuring that all that is kept up to top standard all the time requires vigilance and care. But the point is that these standards exist, and are understood. Move to the looser and more amorphous situation that you seem to see as a potential alternative Dave, and I predict chaos, accidents, and the end of rocketry, certainly as we have all known and enjoyed it these past almost twenty years.

UKRA is in partnership with the BMFA. It is not owned by, or acting as an agency of the BMFA.




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Dave, you have just recently succeeded in negotiating with NATS and the CAA an increase in the altitude ceiling at the Black Knights Club site. Which is excellent. It is in part the previous pioneering and development of such co-ordination and arrangements by UKRA Affiliated Clubs, with the CAA, NATS, and local Air Traffic Control Centres (ATC's), enabled because they were UKRA Affiliated Clubs, and the good impression that carries with NATS and the CAA - as I know very well from direct personal experience here in Scotland with SARA and the IRW - that eased your path to getting the higher ceiling for the Black Knights club. The BMFA I believe played a part in getting new clauses covering rocketry written into UK Air Navigation Law some years ago, but so too did the UKRA Safety & Technical Committee. The CAA, NATS and local ATC's recognise UKRA as the legitimate national body for rocketry, albeit partly because of our Affiliation to and Specialist Body status within the BMFA, but by no means entirely so. UKRA is trusted in its own right by the CAA and NATS. That means a great deal to any UKRA Affiliated Club that seeks to successfully negotiate altitude ceilings, as you have recently successfully done.

I do agree with you Phil that the UKRA Certification Schemes, and the Safety Code can always be subject to review, reconsideration, change, and development, but only on the basis of real safety and operational requirements and necessities. I was not on the UKRA Council at the time of the Sub Committee and its recommendations that you mention Phil, though I seem to recall (without going back to the Minutes) that that Sub Committee was agreed at the 2008 or 2009 AGM held at the IRW, either of those years. So, I really can't comment on the history in that regard that you refer to.

If the Safety Code and the Certification Schemes were to be reviewed and improvements in them made (and I would always support that if there's a real case for it), then that needs to be done by experienced and qualified UKRA Members, and they, I would certainly say, have to be UKRA members. If not undertaken by the Council itself (which may at any time be well qualified to do so, consulting more widely as seems useful), Such an effort could be undertaken by a Sub Committee with properly delegated authority from the Council, as is provided for in the UKRA Constitution, and answerable to the Council. The same I would certainly say applies to any and all other changes and developments in UKRA, it's role and purposes, and mode of operation, and standing in relation to the BMFA. The reason that I emphasise the above, is that I get the distinct impression that from time to time, and possibly now, there are one or two who, with I am sure every good intent, want to be given carte blanche to go off and on their sole authority make the changes that they want, with no involvement with or by the UKRA Council (except for the Council to rubber stamp their changes), and no accountability to the Membership of UKRA. It's been said again and again, and I make no apology for repeating this, if you want to help UKRA, as UKRA, either stand for election to the Council, or agree to be Co-opted to the Council, for particular purpose, or serve in your capacities of capability, knowledge and experience on a properly appointed Sub-Committee that has properly Delegated authority. But please, do not expect to be allowed to just go off and "do you own thing", "behind the scenes" - two very ambiguous phrases which, in my judgement and experience, just mean that people want to use UKRA to pursue their own agendas.

With regard to UKRA now, and for the future, (and as it ever has been so), to quote Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the American Declaration of Independence in 1776, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately".

Yours ever,


AGM query re. Item 4.2.2

Submitted by Mel Sharpe on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 10:29.

Item 4.2.2 Purchase of a Smart card printer. What is the benefit of a Smart Card printer (£1,434.78) to an organisation of 170 members who rarely meet in groups of more than 30? Does the cost include a Card reader? Despite my pretentions, I admit to ignorance in many things technical, hence my query.

I note the comment that: "Research showed that this printer holds its value well". However, given the rate of technological change and that the card stock of "600 cards.. .. and two extra ribbon cradles for gold and silver ribbon for special cards" is more than the requirement for 3 years at current numbers, I find this difficult to follow.

Mel Sharpe 1045.






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online agm protocol


Russ/John/Council members et al.

How are we going to facilitate the vote on accepting the minutes, selecting an auditor etc?

Do you want to do it via a post on here?

Thanks Damian



In the days of online fora

Submitted by Chris Eilbeck on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 20:05.

In the days of online fora an facebook groups, does anyone really want a yearbook?

AGM query re. Item 4.2.2

Submitted by Andy Mell on Mon, 03/02/2014 - 22:16.

I did balk at seeing this item 4.2.2, but 1434.78/600 = £2.39 per card, which is pretty good.

How many years do we expect 600 cards to last?

Multiple considerations

Submitted by Martyn Turner on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 09:10.

Hi Mel,

There were multiple factors that influenced the council's decision to purchase the card printer. These included - the ease of production facilitated by the printer and the reduction in time/effort expected of the membership secretary, the desire to produce a good quality card for the members, and the good value afforded when looking at the total cost of ownership over multiple membership years.

Establishing a robust set of tools and processes (e.g. for membership) is important to the ongoing operations of the organization. In particular the role of membership secretary has traditionally relied on a significant commitment by an individual on council, and steps taken to ease this burden will go a long way to helping the current and future membership secretaries.

Best regards,

Martyn Turner

Comment from non-member

Submitted by Fins Over Gwent on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 20:14.














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I think getting the tools and processes right is important, and I recognize that a lot has been done in that area. Well done to the outgoing council for sorting out the membership database. A nice looking membership card helps with the image of the organization.

The membership benefits need to be identified to attract people like me back. I know, for example, that the subs for FOG give access to a good model rocket range (when its not flooded) with friendly & helpful people who know when its time to stop launching and go to the pub. A FOG member can get BMFA insurance through the club on the day, and will get a say in the AGM, which is held in a pub two minutes from the range. Our few HPR fliers get an invitation to do demonstration launches at Woodspring Wings every July. OK, these are fairly modest member benefits but our annual subs are lower than some clubs' day rates.

I think it would help if I would see what I would get for UKRA subs that I can't already get through FOG. Apart,

that is, from a nice looking membership card

Tend to Concur

Submitted by Dave Beeton on Tue, 04/02/2014 - 21:59.

I agree with Phil, to some extent, and I know that some of the lads who have joined UKRA as full Junior members have asked me for clarification on what the benefits are as compared to flying under the BMFA banner. With all the brouhaha that was bandied about over the last couple of years, I have to say that I am not totally sure anymore. I was always under the impression that if I wanted to fly HPR then membership of UKRA was mandatory, particularly if I wanted to fly with motors greater than G impulse. Now it seems that I only need to be a member of BMFA and there was even talk of allowing non members, albeit holding an acceptable form of insurance, the facility to undertake certification flights. To some extent that denigrates the standing of my own certification flights and certificates. The only benefit that I can see, at present, is the fact that Tripoli have accepted my UKRA certs and have granted me parallel certification levels so that I can fly in the US whenever I get the chance to cross the pond. When I first started to fly AP motors and needed a storage permit and an "acquire and keep", I had to show evidence of membership of a recognized organization. Since the efforts to rationalise the explosive regulations, I am no longer convinced that it will still be a vital issue.

Can someone enlighten me as to the continued benefits of paying the UKRA subsidy, if for nothing else than I can convince my school club members to keep paying theirs.

Dave Beeton BK UKRA 1180

An interesting point

Submitted by Fins Over Gwent on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 09:09.

Dave's mention of the cert scheme triggers another related issue. For several years I've held the view that UKRA needs to review its basic structure and role. It's mission statement effectively says that it exists to promote rocketry and to act as BMFA specialist body. The first is the role of a club, the second is a direct role on behalf of BMFA. I think that there is some ambiguity between these roles, resulting in some confusion as to what UKRA is really about. In the early days of UKRA that probably didn't matter too much, but time and circumstances have changed. I'll cite a coupld of examples:

It could be argued that the safety code and signficant amounts of the S&T activity are, in effect, activities on behalf of BMFA. If this is correct then the safety code should be appropriate to all BMFA members, so clauses about UKRA disciplinary processes are inappropriate. This is not a criticims of the technical content of the code, which is generally very useful, but of the underlying message that the code presents to the casual reader.

The cert scheme is useful, but is it a BMFA requirement or somthing that belongs to the "club" side of UKRA? At the AGM held in IRW a few years ago we formed a sub comittee to look at the purpose and method of the cert scheme but none of its recommendations were adopted. I suspect it was simply ignored by the incoming council. The general view of the sub committee was that the process needed to be tightened, and a process doc was floated to the council for comment. We were undecided about the role of the scheme whether it should be just a proof of competence within the UKRA community or whether, like the BMFA "A" and "B" certs, it should be a requirement before anyone can launch in public (definition of "in public" was obtained from BMFA).








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There are other examples, but the general theme is that UKRA needs an overhaul to decide how it can be relevant in the future, and where it should focus its effort. Any review of this type will probably have to go back to the constitution and to the BMFA mandate as specialist body and work outwards from there. A dedicated team could conduct a review of this size a year. I recognise that this is not a trivial task but I'll make the same offer to this council as I've made to previous ones. If there is a genuine desire to change then I'll contribute my time and effort, but not until 2015 when I should have finished my current studies.

RE Dave and Phil's Comments

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:00.

Dave and Phil,

John has made several relevant arguments as to why UKRA is important for rocketry and I agree with his position on the matter. However I think it is important that UKRA stays both relevant and up to date. To that end I would like to say that whilst we are not going to be able to detail everything here and now, the council has already taken an action to focus on stability this year. There is also an intention to attend launches of as many of the UK clubs as we can, to meet its members and discuss how UKRA (and it's council) can better serve it's members.

I look forward to being able to discuss many of the points made here in person.


" There is also an intention

Submitted by Damian Burrin - OSR on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:43.

" There is also an intention to attend launches of as many of the UK clubs as we can, to meet its members and discuss how UKRA (and it's council) can better serve it's members"

That Russ is a real step forward in my opinion.



I agree

Submitted by Chris Eilbeck on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:55.

I agree

Me too!

Submitted by Dave Beeton on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 23:36.

I whole heartedly agree!













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Comment from a non-member

Submitted by Fins Over Gwent on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 19:59.

I tried to write an objective and non-critical assessment of how I perceived the current situation but its obvious that my communications skills are inadequate. In future I'll keep my views to myself to prevent further misinterpretation of my intentions.

Re: Comment from a non-member.

Submitted by John Bonsor on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 20:48.

Dear Phil.

Referring you to my previous comments, I merely gave my views on, and appreciation of your assessment. I am a UKRA Member, and a serving Council Member after all.

Only part of what I had to say was addressed to your comments. Your communication skills are more than adequate. Any perception of what you characterise as "misinterpretation" of your intentions, lies entirely with you.

Yours ever,


RE: online agm protocol

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 21:15.

Damian,

Approval of minutes can be done via the forum at a later date, or as a first order of business at the next AGM. As Sections 6 and 7 of the Report indicate there is no intention to appoint auditors or a solicitor at this time.


2012 minutes/auditor etc


Russ,

I was refering to the 2012 minutes as they need to be accepted as a true record of the last meeting and voted in and the decision not to appoint and audutor/solictor is something the chair can and should propose as part of this agm but it has to go to a vote and agreed via the members as has happened in previous ukra meetings i've attended which is why i asked how we were doing such things.














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I propose...

Submitted by UKRA Chair on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 01:11.

Ok then:

I propose that the 2012 minutes are a true record of the 2012 AGM meeting... I propose that we will not appoint an Auditor or Solicitor at this time...

I will take lack of disagreement as indication that the membership agrees with these statements/decisions (although feel free to post an agreement if you do).


Re: I propose

Submitted by John Bonsor on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 04:05.

I Second the acceptance of the Minutes of the 2012 UKRA AGM. I was present at that AGM. I've just re-read the 2012 Minutes, and checked them against my own notes from said AGM.

I Second that we not appoint an Auditor or Solicitor at this time.

John Bonsor, UKRA Council Member, UKRA 1023.

A Bit of Clarification

Submitted by Dave Beeton on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 21:18.

Thank you for your response John but I think that you have missed my point. I am not, in any way, proposing to go down the line of "What has UKRA done for me" and, as you are well aware, I HAVE gone down the road of trying to represent the sport by volunteering to serve on the Council. I stood down because I found that I needed to be able to concentrate on my full time job at a particularly busy time. I also tried, and failed spectacularly, to take on the Membership role and I take off my hat to Russ for picking up the pieces and getting it back on track.

In my earlier post, I am not querying the standing of UKRA against the BMFA or any other organisation. I am pointing out that over the last two or three years there appear to have been moves to reduce or play down the importance of "my national organisation" as a supervisory body, if that's the right way to put it, and I am not very happy about it. If my certification levels are to stand for anything then I want someone to get up and state it or have it properly recognised in the rules for the organisation, as it IS for the BMFA "A" and "B" licences. We SHOULD be expected to keep a logbook of our launches and be able to show that we have practiced what we preach. Why can't there be an official UKRA logbook that can be purchased to be able to show the last time that a particular level was confirmed by a suitable launch. Make it compulsory to have to prove that you are "current" and they would certainly sell!

There needs to be a more tangible and regular publication of a magazine or newsletter. I know that's going to cause more rhetoric about editing and the need for time etc etc, but it does not have to be a monthly mag, even a bi-annual broadsheet would be better than we have at the moment. We have a great title, Center of Pressure, put together by our Secretary but, as usual, it needs more support from the membership and clubs. Nearly all clubs have some form of launch report so why can't those get pulled in for publication. The only report that I saw about any of the recent National launch events, apart from IRW, was about the FoR, three years ago, and I had to read about that in an American magazine! What was wrong with offering it to the BMFA for publication, or was it offered and then not used? Why wasn't it published on our own website? Isn't that what it's for?

When was the last time that UKRA had some promotional literature printed? Why do we always seem to be scratching round for brochures, cards or posters. We need a central stock that can be purchased or sent out for suitable events. In the past i have had to print off my own brochures and promotional stuff. If that was where










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some of my subs went I would not need to be asking questions. What happened to the UKRA stickers that used to be sent out with membership cards? Things like that went a long way to promoting the organisation, particularly when putting on displays for Space Day etc. If we are going to promote our sport, we need to be getting those areas under our control.

No John - I am not advocating the reduction of the standing of UKRA in any way, far from it. I want to be proud to be a member and be able to point out the benefits and necessity of belonging to my national organisation.


Dave, I think before we

Submitted by Chris Eilbeck on Wed, 05/02/2014 - 22:45.

Dave, I think before we generate more publicity literature, we need to decide what sort of people we're trying to recruit into rocketry. We've tried recruiting from other modelling hobbies e.g. the model engineering show and that's not been particularly successful - people think their aspect of modelling is already the best to be in. We've done a lot of rocket workshops for kids over the years but it seems to me that's only ever a one-off activity to interest the kids, not the start of a hobby. There seemed to be an influx after we did Tomorrow's World back in 2000 and after the Scrapheap/Scrapheap Challenge shows. I'm sure we've picked up people from UK SEDS type of activity but I do recognise the amount of effort it used to take to support student rocketry competitions.

I'm not sure where we really should be aiming to recruit people from. Maybe if we can get a story in something like T3, Stuff or Wired magazines, we may be able to pick up some people. My suggestion a couple of years back was if we could get a table or two in the Science Museum and half a dozen rocket geeks for a weekend in the summer hols, we may at least interest some people into coming along to EARS, BK, SERFS launches. I'm still fully prepared to support this.

If anyone has any ideas, please put them forward. If we can get membership numbers up, the effort to produce newsletters, publicity etc. all becomes less onerous on the few of us left.

Chris

Publicity

Submitted by Mitch Hamilton on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 17:38.

I sometime listem to Simon Mayo - Radio 2 on a Friday , 5pm onwards . He has a slot - "The Friday fixture " . Where people get to promote their unusual sport or pastime .


Hammy.

"There needs to be a more


"There needs to be a more tangible and regular publication of a magazine or newsletter"

It's interesting that at the last agm i attended which was prb 2010 or 11 the members dicussed what was then 10,9,8 and whether it was now needed due to the speed and proliferation of photos,articles etc now online and difficulty in getting articles from members. Chas as chair proposed to cancel the magazine which im sure went through, so i was surprised that the year book suddenly appeared and though i have contributed some pics and an article im not shocked that there has been provblems getting enough content.

I do hope that Pete can pick up the batton and get content and i implore members to help him get it out this year as it was a promised benefit but i do think it will struggle this year, i think that regular news update and flight / event report section on the website would be great especially the publuc facing pages.











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Re: A Bit of Clarification.

Submitted by John Bonsor on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 03:46.

Dear Dave.

Thank you indeed for your clarification on your previous comment here.

I do apologise if my response seemed to you to be a misinterpretation of what you said. However, I did respond to the way that your previous comment - Tend to Concur - read to me. I understand now that what you were

expressing is your concern about an apparent decline in the perceived relevance of UKRA. And it is exactly to that percieved decline that I am about speaking against, and making the case for reversing. But also saying that, I think that some of that may be more in perception than in reality. However, that's not to the exclusion of recognition of where UKRA may be capable of improvement. Please see my comments in the fourth paragraph after this one.

I'm just trying to acquire as accurate an assessment of the realities and misapprehensions as I can get and communicate here.

I am entirely happy Dave, indeed rather relieved, to accept all that you say in your "'Clarification" comment, in its entirety, and without demur.

Of course I fully recognise your service on the UKRA Council, and in other ways to UKRA, and to rocketry in the UK. I was never in doubt about that.

Going on from those remarks Dave, you make a good suggestion about how to reinforce Certification "currency" verification, i.e. your log book proposal. I do know that some, possibly most, UKRA flyers keep their own personal records of their rocket flights anyway, apart from Flight Registration Cards (FRC's). I certainly keep my own

personal rocketry logs. (Which run to quite a few note books now! Some old enough to be "slightly foxed" ). So, keeping a standard log book would for many UKRA rocketeers be, I imagine, an adaptation and extension of their own flight record keeping. Your points and ideas on the publications side of UKRA, both reporting and promotional, are all excellent, and I would commend all of that for consideration with a view to practical implementation to the Council upon which I currently serve.

Apropos your closing remark in your comment, to which this is my reply Dave. Never mind "tending" to concur, I wholeheartedly agree.

Yours ever,


Thank you for the very


Thank you for the very comprehensive report.

AOB











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Russ as chair.

A lot of issues seemed to be down to membership not understanding the roles of council. Yes we know it's volentary and not enough members stand, it's been like that for as long as i can remember. If it's not confidential can you let members know what were the spefic jobs or APs given to council members, what did council actually do on behalf of its members outside that of processing membership applications.

This might give us a better understanding of the time and effort individual council members put in.

Thanks Damian Burrin UKRA 1159 LARF


Damian,Focusing on getting


Damian,

Focusing on getting the membership applications sorted in 2013 was a priority for the council and as such took a significant amount of time from several of the council members. The report linked at the start of this thread identifies the main council activities and the minutes of specific council meetings identify several other discussions/activities that took place. The activities of the council were performed as a collective and as such it is neither relevant nor appropriate to quantify the efforts of individual council members. The purpose of preparing the AGM report was to communicate the work done by the council (which was largely administrative and behind the scenes) to the membership.

Hopefully, building on the framework put in place last year, the council will be in a position to make a more visual contribution to UKRA in 2014.

Russ


Excellent Russ so with


Excellent Russ so with membership on the way to being resolved maybe there will be time to look at the

possibilites of 2014 event



Re: AOB.











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Dear Damian.

Since posting my reply comment to you, as below, I realise that this essentially duplicates Russ's Damian,Focusing on getting reply to you. I apologise for this mistake on my part, and for any irritation caused.

John B.

Dear Damian.

You addressed these questions to Russ as Chair. However, as I know that Russ has a busy personal weekend ahead, and as the answer to what ask about is, with respect, so obvious, I feel it not inappropriate to point it out to you myself. And which I hope you will not object to me doing.

Please read the document UKRA AGM 2013 Agenda and Report in full, and the UKRA Council Meeting

Minutes linked in that document, and all three of the "Centre Of Pressure" issues by UKRA Secretary Jonathan Rhodes, also linked in said document.

I would hope that that level of detailed reporting will answer your questions.

Yours ever,


Can I suggest that a link to


Can I suggest that a link to this is put on the front page of the website and, possibly, that an email shot is also sent to maximise involvement of the members in the AGM?

An email shot was sent


An email shot was sent Chris, did you not see it?

I have put something up tonight on the front page.


Nope, not had anything from


Nope, not had anything from UKRA since confirmation of my membership renewal

No me neither Russ - I only


No me neither Russ - I only noticed the AGM as I get a daily archive of posts to the forums












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Sent yours again.


I've forwarded you both the email again. Could it have found it's way into a SPAM box?


Just got it. Thanks


Just got it. Thanks

Russ, Not in any of my mail


Russ,

Not in any of my mail folders. Ive done a quick pole on the fb group and it would seem that members have recieved it but over a range of a few days so maybe its just delayed. Recieved the new one though

Thanks Damian Damian Burrin UKRA 1159 LARF


Hi all Have been following

Submitted by Mark Perman on Thu, 06/02/2014 - 17:49.

Hi all

Have been following the thread and looked at the Minutes

Here are some comments and suggestions

Personally I would have expected a somewhat fuller account of UKRA activities in the Chairman’s remarks.

Spending that amount of money to purchase a printer to print membership cards was in my opinion excessive! However its done move on.












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2013 Yearbook forget it it’s too late. Ask Pete B to be Newsletter editor instead and use the material so far gathered in this year’s Newsletters, fold Centre of Pressure into the revamped 10, 9, 8 (ahem newsletter). Why do we need a newsletter for a start see the comments in the thread. In addition when clubs are promoting themselves/the hobby at events such as Space Day they have something tangible to represent UKRA – people who are interested really do like to take away this sort of material. In fact BIS don’t produce much publicity material we just put out a selection of our magazines which generally include some joining details/info about the society somewhere within.

If we want the hobby to grow - Council if you do nothing else you need to promote the Hobby. That could be by turning up at events like Space Day or Brighton Model World and supporting clubs on the stands or even having a separate UKRA stand. Going back in time members of the UKRA provisional committee and early Councils manned stands at County shows and other public events and generated lots of interest. We used to get considerable No’s of spectators turning up and new members at events why – promotion! If you need evidence of why this is reqd look at current and recent membership levels.

On the subject of promoting the hobby - At the upcoming BIS Cosford IV conference I have been asked whether there is someone interested in giving a talk on hobby rocketry through the 80’s to the present. My plan is to contact Stuart Lodge however anyone here interested?

UKRA event – Council don’t waste your time on a separate event. Contact a club and agree for a joint event then support it - promote it heavily and constantly and then the Council need to turn up on mass and do the jobs reqd to make the thing run successfully. The problem here is that most clubs are small and have limited resources so if UKRA wants an event it needs to help make it happen and that means the keen rocket flyers, who are Council members anyway, turn up and do/share the work. Do not waste your time looking for a separate flying site, to clubs sites for UKRA events. Finding flying sites can be very time consuming – utilise and therefore help maintain the existing assets.

UKRA needs to work closely with the BMFA to ensure we don’t have misunderstandings. Wherever possible administrative tasks should be off loaded to the BMFA.

Phil – interesting points ref the Safety Code and Disciplinary process

AGM venues – How many times are we going to have to re-learn this! Separate AGM’s are never going to be a realistic option. AGM’s to attract an attendance by the membership or the council for that matter need to happen at an event of interest/value to the membership otherwise people can’t/wont justify turning up! So assuming this online version turns out not to be popular they need to be at flying events or some event which might attract members to attend for instance we had an AGM at an event at Waltham abbey in the past and room at Space Day was offered as was time at a BK flying session!

regards

Mark UKRA 1010 LII RSO

Close of the AGM


I would like to thank everyone who has participated in the AGM on behalf of the council. The AGM is now closedmand no further comments/questions will be taken.

There has been a lot of useful discussion and we will endeavor to capture the information into a concise set of minutes which will be circulated in due course.

I think this method of holding an AGM has been very useful and has enabled open discussion, the council will discuss how we can incorporate this type of exchange into future AGMs.

In closing I would like to wish everyone an excellent contrail filled year and I look forward to meeting many of you in person at one of the many Rocketry events of the 2014 calendar. I'll leave you with a little light hearted prayer I wrote to the Rocket Gods:






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Our forefathers who have been to orbit, Hallowed be thy rockets. When launch day comes, Rocketry shall be done, max altitude is never above the NOTAM. Give us this day loads of AP and forgive us our builds with negative static margins, as we forgive ourselves for setting the wrong ejection delay. Lead us not into bad weather, but deliver us from the CATO. For thine is the burn time, the impulse and the safe recovery, Forever and ever Heads Up!



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