15962. N.R.HANDELI

stand picketing, it 's a band of people who prevent those

from doing something contrary to what they were asked to

do. I use as an example 'stay at home'. Now, do you

agree with that?— I agree with that, my lord.

Now, what were your picketers - you mentioned

xo it - what were they supposed to do?— No, we had no

pickets at all , my lord.

I only use the word 'pickets' because you

did?— I appreciate that, my lord. . .

HUMPFF Js I understood you to say that your

organisation would prefer a stay at home to the ordinary

so called strike because with the stay at home you would

have no pickets?— That is so, my lord.

KENNEDY Js Then I may be wrong. There was

no question of an organised strike?— Not at all, my lord. 20 I'm sorry, I was under a misapprehension.

RUMPFF J ; Mr. Mandela, you say that the orga-

nisation took precautions to prevent violence, and you

quoted the Defiance Campaign, and then you quoted as an

example the desirability of having stay at homes in pre-25

ference to strikes?— Yes.

Now, although you were banned at the time

we have had the evidence about the Western Areas Removal

- you have listened to that?— I have, my lord.

Presumably you were interested in the time in 30

reading how things were proceeding?— Yes, my lord.

Without actively participating in the thing

itself. Now, what would you say were the precautions

taken by the A.N.C. to prevent violence at the removal

of the people on that occasion?— Well, my lords, I can 35

15963. TS.B..WLSBELL

only go by reports because I was no longer active.

X also invite you to go on the evidence that we

have heard here?— Yes, my lord; from my reports the

campaign in the Western Areas was going to be run on the

ordinary basis on which we run our campaigns. Our policy

of non-violence was to be maintained - it was to be

explained to the people of Sophiatown and if I remember

correctly a statement was issued calling upon the people

of Sophiatown to be non-violent and disciplined. What

further precautions were taken, my lord, I do not know*

I was merely content to hear the reports that a statement

tailing upon the people to be non-violent and peaceful

had been made. I am not aware of any other precautions »

there may well have been others, my lord, but that is all

I can tell your lordships.

Is there anything in the evidence that you

have heard that you would say constitutes a precaution?—

Except from the point of view of the speeches, my lord,

which have referred to the fact that our policy is one of

non-violence. Now, my lords, I know that thousands of

speeches were made in Sophiatown in connection with ihis

removal campaign, and the speeches that are before Court

are merely a fraction of the speeches which were deli-

vered in Sophiatown.

For what they are worth, having regard to

the defects intaking down the speeches, but for what they

are worth, having regard to the limitless number of

speeches, is there any one that you remember that would

indicate that the speaker gave particulars about the

precautions?— Not that I can remember, my lord.

15964. N.R. MANDELA

But your lordship, of course, will bear in mind that by

the time the Congress took up the Western Areas Removal

scheme the policy of the African National Congress - the

emphasis on discipline and non-violence had been advo-

cated throughout the country, especially since 1952, and

speaking for myself I would have expected that the

speeches which were made emphasise the question of dis-

cipline and non-violence0, having regard to the fact that

the emphasis had been laid on our policy of non-violence

this would have been sufficient, but my lords, I am speak-

ing here purely from hearsay because I was not active at

the time. There may well have been precautions taken, I

do not know.

How do you reconcile the going into action of

volunteers to try to save families from the compulsory

removal, with the idea of precautionary methods to avoid

violence?— Well, my lord, that may well be a precautionary

method.

In what way?— The fact of removing people who

were going to be moved - - you don't have to do that when

the police are there, you can move the people before the

police are there.

That is obvious, obviously it would be best

to remove them before the police arrived, but when the

police are busy removing and the volunteers move in

?— My lord, as I understood the position - - I may be

wrong, I may not have listened carefully - - but as I

understood the position it would appear that the day

before removal, the night before, families were eva-

cuated. I didn't get the impression that families were

evacuated as the police were removing the peoplr-.

15965. N.R. MANDELA

Yes, I may be wrong, it may have been in the 5

night before the police arrived?— I may be wrong, my

lord, but that is my impression . .

I don't think it 's very clearly stated, it 's

;)ust mentioned in one or two reports?— That was my

understanding, my lord. 1 0

Yes. Well, if they had been moved into the

area while the police were doing their work, what would

your opihion be then in regard to precautionary methods

to avoid trouble and violence?— My lord, in the first

place one, of course, would expect that the Congress ^

leaders to have acted upon the Congress' opinions which

they were given; that i s , to refuse to obey the notice

of the Native Re-settlement Board was not a criminal

offence, and the police themselves, as upholders of the

law, could not coerce anybody to move if that person was

merely served with a notice from the Native Re-settlement

Board. It would therefore be reasonable to assume that

all that the police would do would be to say "Listen,

are you prepared to go", and if a person said " I am not

prepared to go", they would leave the matter there, but

if a person was preparedto go then they would put him on

the lorry; and I don't think, my lords, speaking for

myself, I would not have expected the leaders of the

Congress to think that anything would happen as a result

of somebody refusing to leave. BEKKER J;

Have you any idea of the African Congress

membership in the Western Areas?— My lord, I remember

that at one time - - I'm not now certain — -

I'm referring to around about June, 1954 - 35

15966, N.R. MANDELA

1955?— Yes, my lord.

What was the figure, da you knoV?— I don't know

whether it w as 1954 or 1955, hut I do remember that in one

of those years the membership in Sophiatown was 1700, It

may have been in 1954,but during the course of this campaign

it increased to 1800.

I don't know whether it 's hearsay or not, but a

figure has been mentioned of I think 78,000 people in the

Western Areas; would that be correct?— Yes,

78,000 people were affected?— Yes - between

60,000 and 70,000.

MR. HOEXTERs I think the figure -mentioned was

58f000 my lord.

RUMPRF J; Y e s . , . . ?— Of course, there have

been various estimates, my lords, .

Yes, Mr. Hoexter. .

MR. HOEXTEER; Mr, Mandela, I want you to com-

ment on a brief passage which occurs in an article on

Bantu Education . . , .

(COURT ADJOURNED FOR 15 MINUTES )

159 67. N.R.MANDELA

ON THE COURT RESUMING; 5

MR. KENTRIIG-E i My lords, before the witness

continues, on behalf of the Defence I would like to

register a formal objection, with respect, to the way

your lordship put a question to this witness, insofar

as your lordship asked the witness how he could recon-

cile certain plans about the volunteers and the need to

take precautions, because in our submission, my lords,

that question carries with it the assumption that there

are two things which need reconciling; it would suggest,

my lords, that the evidence given about the volunteers' 3-5

plans about the moving of families might have in it an

element of possibility of violence, and therefore needed

to be reconciled with the witness' statement that precau-

tion had to be taken. We would respectfully submit, my

lords, that insofar as your lordship's question might hsve 20

suggested that assumption about the activities of volun-

teers, it should with respect perhaps not have been put

that way.

RUMRFE J; No; what I meant to convey was

this: he mentioned the fact that the A.N.C. took pre- 25

cautions and he quoted certain examples. Then, having

put to him that he wasn't involved in the actual oppo-

sition to the removal - having regard to the evidence

before us - we have evidence that some volunteers, if

I may use the word, went into action to remove certain 3C

of the people before they could be removed by the police.

It was put on the basis that having regard to the fact

that precautionary methods were adopted, how would one

reconcile the fact of precautions being taken generally

with the fact that people were sent in to remove from 35

159 68. NR. MA.MDELA

the police; but the point then arose whether, as the

witness said, he didn't know - - whether they went in

at the time when the removal took place, so I said well,

I cannot r ememb er that either; if they went in to

assist with their own removal before the police came,

well, then therecouldn't possibly be any clash. The

idea I wanted to convey was, assume that the police were

busy removing, and in the face of the removal by the

police volunteers would enter the area and remove people

how would one reconcile the fact of precautionary methods

with a principle of sending people in to remove before

the police?

MR. KEHTRIDGE: My lord, our position, with

respect, is that one ought not to assume that even if that

was what the volunteers were doing, it was necessarily

inconsistent with precautions, and required reconciliation.

RUMPFF J; No; except the reconciliation that

I wanted to be enlightened upon was, if you have armed

police forcibly removing people and other people coming

into the same area and may I say in front of the police,

or within the vision of the police, removing other people,

whether theremight not be the possibility of a clash.

And i f that possibility existed, perhaps wrongly, whether

the two could be reconciled; in other words, whether

an instruction not to commit violence, and the existence

Of precautionary measures could be reconciled with an

instruction to people to go in and to prevent the police

from doing what they were doing. On that basis I put

the question.

MR. KENTRIIGEs Yes, my lord. As your lord-

15969 N.R.MAHDELA

ship pleases. I follow.

RUMPTP_J: Is it clear what I was after?

ME.. KENTRIDGEs Yes, I think I do understand,

ray lord.

RUMPFF J; The basic approach was, precaution-

ary methods were always taken to prevent the possibility

of violence, and then this thought struck me, well, if

that be so, how can one reconcile that with volunteers

going into action, provided they do go of course? in

the face of the police. His answer was, he felt that

the evidence might show that they went into action the

night before the police began their removal. In that

event there couldn't be any violence.

MR. KENTRIDGE: Yes, my lord.

RUMPFF Ji As far as I'm concerned the posi-

tion remains where it is , because I don't know what evi-

dence there is as to when. Then I asked him the question,

what was his view if , on the assumption that the volunteers

went into action at the same time as the police did - -

that is the point that I want cleared up.

MR. HCEXTER; Mr. Mandela, I want you to com-

ment please on an exerpt from an article on Bantu Educa-

tion which appears in the journal "Fighting Talk" 5 it is

the issue of May, 1955, and the article is headed "Shout-

ing the cause of the struggle against Bantu Education" ,

and I read a very brief paragraph on page 3020 of the

record where the author says: 'Threats and physical

force are reserved for last resort action against strike

breakers who use the protecting arm of the police to

break up and disrupt what the majority of the workers

have freely decided upon. The liberation movement must

15970. N.R.MANDELA

take that experience to heart.1 Do you agree that the 5

liberation should take that experience to heart, the

threats and physical force are reserved for last resort

action?—Well, as far as I understand the policy of

the African National Congress there is nothing whatso-

ever in its policy for threats and violence. If that 10

statement is made in order to explain the policy of the

African National Congress either on Bantu Education or

on any other matter, then I disagree because it is con-

trary to the policy of the Congress as I understand it .

Well, I'm putting it to you generally, as far

as the Congress Movement is concerned, I see that accord-

ing to the issue concerned the author was L . Bernstein?—

Yes,

Now, on the assumption if your information

is correct about the three lectures, do you think this 20

would be the same man? Or did you know more than one

person by that name?-- No, no, only one I . Bernstein.

Was he a fairly frequent contributor to the

journals supported by the Liberatory Movement?— I don't

remember seeing his name very frequently;as far as 25

liberation is concerned I saw an article now and again.

I don't also remember, my lord, seeing many articles

by him in 'Righting Talk' , but there may well have been

which escaped my attention. But I only know one L .

Bernstein. 3C

I want to put to you a further article also

in 'Righting Talk' , an editorial article; this is in

the issue dated January, 1956, and the editorial com-

ment is entitled 'Our New Age'; I am quoting a para-

graph entitled 'Last Ditch Disaster' which occurs on 35

15971. N.R. MANDELA

page 3037 of the record and it says the following?-

•But this is the year 1956; the Colonial peoples have

learnt the size of the struggle for liberty, and the

weapons of the past are proving ineffective against the

Movements of the present; against their oppressors the

people of Cyprus presented a national united front in 1 0

which all classes, groups and parties of the Island

joined to conduct a peaceful political campaign. When

that campaign became irrisistible by other methods the

British Government answered it with a military dictator-

ship, The United front held, despite every attempt to ^

buy off sections of it with constitutional plans for a

share in the spoils of exploitation. Prom political

agitation the people have moved to mass civil disobedience

marked by unity and discipline which comes only from pro-

found consciousness of the aims of the struggle. Where

military and semi-military action has become necessary

against the military dictatorship it has been taken with

discipline and courage inspired by a great revolutionary

spirit and tradition. There has been no sporadic indivi-

dual terror. There has been no sectarian running in 25

advance of the people which would have cut the Communists

and the left Wing off from Archbishop Makarios and the

Middle Class.1 Now, isn't it possible to conceive of

a situation where the establishment of a military dictator-

ship might compel the liberatory movement to use military

tactics against that dictatorship?— My lord, I don't know

what might happen in other countries, but as far as our

country is concerned we hold that here we have a dictator-

ship; notwithstanding that, we have employed for ourselves

the weapons which we feel is in a position to fight most 35

15972 N.R. MAKDELA

effectively against this dictatorship, the policy of non-

violence, and the Congress has not adopted that policy

as a mere expedient. It has adopted it because it be-

lieves that no violence in any shape or form should be

employed in endeavouring to realise the demands set out

in the Freedom Charter. It believes that even if it

means that we shall take a longer time to a ttain our

aspirations, nevertheless we commit ourselves to the

method of non-violence.

Mr. Mandela, apart from the policy upon

which you have decided, the Congress Movement was cer-

tain, was it not, that violence would be used by the

ruling class?— It reckoned with that possibility.

Well, were you not at pains to stress it?—

It may have been so.

I 'd like to put to you a brief exerpt from

an article in 'Liberation', an editorial article called

"War against 7/hom" and it occurs in the issue No. 8 of

1954. I read first from page 3483 of the record where

the editor says2 'War, that is in the Kenya manner,

the ruthless massacre of thousands of innocent unarmed

folk, the deliberate attempt to grind a nation into the

dust of trembling fear and servile submission; that is

what War means here in Africa. We know these people,

we have met them before, and our fathers and our grand-

fathers have met them. We know their contempt for

humanity and their disregard for human l i fe . We know

that they will stop at nothing, that they will spill

rivers of blood, that they will strip themselves of

every vestige of the civilisation they pretend to up-

hold, to retain their grasp on our land and on our labour.

15973. N.R. MANDELA

Then on the next page, page 3484, line 23, it says this:

MR. KENTRIDGE? My lordg, this is rather a

long passage.

MR. HOSXTERs My lords, perhaps it would he

better if the witness read from the record; I've marked 10

the portion.

RUMPEE J; Yes.

MR. HGEXTER: Mr. Mandela, I'm now reading from

the last paragraph on page 3484?-- Yes.

•The Malanites will try to stifle the true cause 15

of the Congress with lies, and strangle the movement of

the people with provocation, repression and violence; they

shall not succeed. They will fail because the Movement

of the people of South Africa is united, conscious and

determined as never before and because we live in a world 20 where the people are vigilantly on guard for peace. But

let us have no illusions; let us not ask a gainst whom

war is being prepared, or for whom the bullets are intend-

ed; they are meant for us. Only the conscious determined

participation of the South African people in defence of 25

peace can avert the massacre that is being plotted. No

task before us is more urgent.' Nov;, here 'Liberation'

sees fit to warn its readers that a massacre is being

plotted against the oppressed people of this country.

It gives a very clear warning in several passages of

the article, that the Congress Movement must expect

violence at the hands of the ruling class. Would you

agree with me, Mr. Mandela, that these sentiments, these

warnings are fully representative of Congress thought?—

My lords, as I have said these views may have been ex-

15984. N.R.MANDELA

pressed by the African National Congress. Certainly

Congress reckons with the possibility of violence and

a lot of blood shed has been committed time without

number by the Nationalist Government, and Congress has

on several occasions warned its followers that they

should expect this.

Would you agree with the role played by Libera-

tion, which is described in the Liberation of November,

1955 - - you needn't turn it up - - it 's a brief passage

which has been read into the record. It says: 'This

magazine is devoted specifically to giving what assist-

ance it can in this vitally important search for

Clarity.' Then it says: 'Where are we going and how do

we get there?' The answer to these questions is the

key to our rapid and successful advancement.' Now, Mr.

Mandela, would you agree with me that the bulk of articles

in this publication was devoted to a consideration of

the question 'Where is the Congress Movement going,

where is the Liberatory struggle going, and how do we

get there?'. Is that a fair description of the role of

this paper?— I don :t know if it is a fair description.

I know that 'Liberation' has discussed matters of

vital interest to the liberatory movement, but whether

it has devoted its pages to the question of investigat-

ing 'How do we get there?' - that I don't know. It

might well be.

What is your impression?— Well, the 'Libera-

tion' is, of course, discussing matters of primary

interest to the liberatory struggle, but I must point

out that Liberation is not the mouthpiece of the A.N.C.

It does not necessarily follow that the views which it

15975c N.R. MANDELA

expresses are consistent with the policy of the African

National Congress. The Congress may reserve the right

to disagree, or to agree with any article that is pub-

lished in Liberation; it 's not the mouthpiece of the

Congress .

Mr. Mandela, the view that a clash is certain

was the view that you personally held?— Oh, yes, most

decidedly.

BEKKER J: You hold that view?— Most decidedly,

in the sense in which I explained it, my lord, in my

evidence-in-chief.

MR. HOEXTER: Now, Mr. Mandela, still in the

same volume that you have before you, vol.18, will you

turn to page 3536 in which Liberation dated April,1956,

has been read into the record, again an Editorial ar-

ticle which is entitled 'Wreckers at work'. In the

original it 's on page 8 of the document, in the record

it was read in at page 3536, and it says: 'The people's

alliance which has grown up in our country has an ex-

traordinarily difficult and dangerous task before it .

It 's adversary, the South African ruling class, is a

formidable one. It is backed by and closely linked

with Foreign Imperialism. It isarmed and ready to use

violence and it will stop at nothing to retain its

oppression and unjust rule. It is ruthless, cunning

and desperate.' Mr. Mandela, whether or not Libera-

tion was the official journal of the African National

Congress, I want to put to you that that sentiment

again is representative of an oft repeated idea in

the Congress Movement generally, and especially in the

African National Congress - the ruling clique will atop

15984. N.R.MANDELA

at nothing? it is armed and ready to use violence?— Oh,

yes, those views have been expressed in Congress, in the

African National Congress.

And they have been expressed because they re-

veal the Congress viewpoint on this branch of the matter

?— It may well be, because they reveal the experiences

which the African National Congress have had in its rela-

tions with the present Government.

Then still in the same volume before you, Mr.

Mandela, if you would turn please to page 3520 of the

record; this is the issue of October, 1955 and there

is an article 'Respector of Belsen and Buchenwald'. I

think you were the author of that article, were you

not?— I was, my lords.

Yes. Turn to page 3520 and it refers to a

portion which starts 'Taking advantage of this situa-

tion the Peoples organisations have embarked on a

broad programme of mutual co-operation and closer

relations' - - have you got that?— Is that on page

3520?

Yes - - I'm sorry, it starts on the previous

page?— Oh, yes, I 've got it now.

'The Freedom Charter recently adopted by

people of all races and from all walks of life now

forms the ground plan for future action. However,

the Fascist regime that governs this country is not

meeting this situation with arms folded. Cabinet Minis-

ters are arming themselves with inquisitorial and arbi-

trary powers to destroy their opponents and hostile

organisations. They are building a mono-party State

15984. N.R.MANDELA

the essence of which is the identification of a National-

ist Party with State power.' Pausing there, Mr.Mandela,

do you consider that an evil feature, the identifica-

tion of single party with the State - complete identifica-

tion?— Well, our experience is that that identification

has led to a great deal of suffering, as far as we are

concerned.

Do you feel it might work: in other regimes?—

Well, I don't know, but I know that in our regime it

has had this effect.

Now I read on: 'All opposition to the Nationa-

lists has become opposition to the State; every faoet of

National life is being subordinated to the overriding

necessity of the party's retention of power. All con-

stitutional safeguards are being thrown overboard and

individual liberties ruthlessly suppressed', and then

you say: 'Lynchings and pograms are the logical weapon

to be resorted to should the onward march of the

liberation movement continue to manifest itself ' . As

far as you know has the onward march of the liberatory

movement continued to manifest itself?— Yes, it has.

Congress has become much more powerful and much more

strong to-day.

And in your opinion is the possibility of

this violence to which you refertherefore heightened

- increased?— Oh, yes; we feel that the Government

will not hesitate to massacre hundreds of Africans in

order to intimidate them not to oppose its reactionary

policy.

Mr. Mandela, I now want you to turn to the

theme which we began to explore on Friday - - you

15978. N.R.MANDELA

remember we were discussing the problems of Imperialism

and Capitalism. I suggested to you that as far as the

Congress Movement was concerned they were regarded as

being essentially twin-problems, interlocked problems,

and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your answer was

that while the Congress Movement certainly was opposed

to Imperialism in any form, it had nothing to do what-

soever with the problem of Capitalism; it is not con-

cerned with Capitalism, and the struggle was in no way

aimed against Capitalism. Is that a fair summing up of

your answer?— Yes, that was my answer. Certainly at

the time when I was active in Congress, and even after

I was there - after I was banned.

On that point a question was put to you this

morning by a Member of the Court. I take it that you

kept yourself carefully informed, after your banning,

of what was happening in Congress circles?— As much as

it was possible at the time.

And I take it - - it is suggested by the fact

that you wrote for these journals - - that you tried to

advance the liberatory struggle as much as you could,

having regard to the fact that you were not allowed to

speak at meetings?— Yes.

Mr.Mandela, I want to put to you that in

fact the Congress Movement did see Imperialism and Capital-

ism as twin problems and that the struggle of the Congress

Movement was consciously directed against Capitalism, that

it sought explicitly to overthrow Capitalism. Would you

look please at Exhibit 203 and will you tell me whether

you recognise this as the bulletin of the Youth League in

15979. N.R.MANDELA

the Transvaal?— Yes.

That is the bulletin issued by the Youth League

?— Yes.

Well, did you know that publication at the time

when you were still active in Congress?— Yes, ay lords.

And does that appear to be one of their bulle-

tins as far as you can judge?— It does, ay lords.

After your banning did you still continue to read

these journals of the Youth League?— Yes, I did.

Can you remember this particular issue?— No, my

lords, I can't.

What is the date of this issue?— November,1953*

I'm reading from the record at page 8 4 6 , a very

brief portion, and tell me if you'd like the record to

follow, Mr. Mandela. It says: Line 16, page 8 4 6 : 'It

is the bounden duty . . . . " , well, Mr.Mandela, would

you please read that aloud?— 'It is the bounden duty

of all the working class- leaders to combat relentlessly

the perpetual threats of attempting to isolate the

economic struggle from the political struggle which

is advocated and pursued with impunity by some trade

unionists in reactionary circles. Politics and econo-

mics are inseparable because trade union organisations

are for political organisations for freedom and

democracy.'

Read on please?— Then there is a section on

trade unions unique position.

Yes, just read that please?— 'The existence

of working class organisations does not imply the end

of working class trade unionism. It is in fact the

15984. N.R.MANDELA

beginning of the class struggle on a higher level which

is destined to culminate in the elimination of class

contradictions. These contradictions are precipitated

by conditions that render trade unionism an indispen-

sible for working class unity. Therefore, the means

of the working class struggle justify the logical ends

and objectives of trade union organisations. The

existence of the working class trade unions within

the context of the national struggle ensures and guaran-

tees to the highest degree the constant perpetuation

of the struggle to its logical end. It also ensures

the perpetuation of the unbending and uncompromising

trend of our national policy in the struggle. It

guarantees freedom.'

Thank you. Mr. Mandela, do you agree with

me that that passage shows some pre-occupation with the

theme of Capitalism?— Well, my lords, it might, but

what I say is that the Congress has no policy on the

questionof Capitalis m, and this passage with due respect

doesn't take the matter any further.

You say that that passage is neutral on the

subject?— No. I haven't, in the limited time I 've

had, been able to study it very carefully. If it con-

stitutes an attack on the Capitalist system then, of

course, it does not express the policy of the African

National Congress.

Well, disregarding that question, and to come

back to the first question, so far as you know it, is

that the express policy and view of the African National

Congress Youth League?— No. Not even the view of the

Youth League. This article expresses the point of

15984. N.R.MANDELA

view of the person writing the article. It is not in

any shape or form the policy either of the African Na-

tional Congress or of the Youth League, as far as I

understand it .

Can you speculate as to why such an article is

printed in such a journal?— Well, the article does not

conflict with the policy of the African National Congress,

but as I said earlier this morning the Afcican National

Congress is itself an alliance of various social classes

which are united not by any specific ideology other

than the broad aims of achieving equality in the coun-

try, and we have deliberately refrained from discussing

this theoretical question, because we feel that by

doing so we will break the unity which we have taken

so many years to build.

In your opinion, Mr. Mandela, is that portion

I read to you fully consistent with the policy of the

African National Congress as known to you?— I beg your

pardon?

Is the passage that you have just read fully

consistent with the policy of the African National Con-

gress, as known to you, or as you see it?— Well, the

African National Congress has neither policy nor a

view on the question of Capitalism. We just have no

view; we just have no policy.

Well, . .?— The African National Congress have

never discussed the question of an attitude towards

Capitalism. I , as an individual, have got a view, but

not the African National Congress, and I say that the

author of this article was expressing his own point of

15984. N.R.MANDELA

view. We will print an article like this, it makes no

difference; it 's not inconsistent with the policy of

the A.N.C.

Now, on your reading of it, Mr. Mandela, how do

you understand the sentence which says: in referring to

working class trade unionism, he says: 'The existence

of working class organisations does not imply the end

of working class trade unionism; it is in effect the

beginning of the class struggle on a higher level which

is destined to culminate in the elimination of class

contradictions.' Now, was the A.N.C. at all concerned

about class struggles . . . . ?— No.

Did it interpret the liberatory struggle as

being in any sense allied or linked to a class struggle

?— No, no. The African National Congress has neither

theory nor a viewpoint on the question of class struggle.

Now this other reference to a contradiction,

have you struck that phrase before in your reading, in

your political reading?— I may have, my lords.

As you understand it, isn't that something

which according to Communist theory can only be elimi-

nated through the surgical operation of a dictatorship

of the Proletariat?— It may be, my lords, I do not know.

Well , how do you understand a contradiction

in political theory; has it any meaning for you?— My

lords, I haven't gone into the scientific analysis of

the term contradiction. I may have used it, I don't

know if I have - - I may have used it, but I haven't

gone into the question of what the theoretical meaning

of a contradiction is.

15983, N.R.Mandela

Well, let me hastento assure you that it is a

phrase which you used, but we'll come to that in due

course. At all events you say there can be nothing - -

there is nothing inconsistent in this paragraph with the

policy of the African National Congress?— No. Of course,

with qualifications.

For the reason that there was no policy. Will

you turn now to the same volume, page 850, Mr. Mandela.

Beginning at page 850 there is a quotation from 'The Lode-

star' of May 1954; would you read please from the foot

of page 850 beginning with the phrase, 'Subjective libera-

tion'?— 'Subjective liberation - an immediate necessity.

It is asserted by most advanced political thinkers that

objective conditions produce not only the need but the

desira for change. This does not imply a negation

of the role that the subjective plays, in any movement.

On the contrary, by cutting across the . . . . views of

the idealist which merely serves to camouflage the true

nature of reality this formulation renders more concrete

and lends content to the oft stated truism that subjective

liberation is a prelude to freedom". 'When a people dis-

cover that they are living under conditions that mili-

tate against any further advance . . . .in other words,

when they are conscious of the objective realities of

oppression, economic . . . . sickness, starvation and

violence, they have taken the first step in the 10,000

mile journey to liberation. It is not sufficient, how-

ever, for them to recognise and be conscious of the

conditions of the world around them? they must prooeed

to see the need for change, for a new society, to plan

15984. N.R.MANDELA

the destruction of the old and the creation of the new sys-

tem; the combined realisation of the badness of the old

society and the need to change it and create another is

referred to aspolitical consciousness", and then in

brackets (that much abused expression), "depending on

the extent to which subjective factors are linked with

contempt and above all revolutionary activity on the part

of the mass of the people, their political consciousness

will be heightened and developed. At this stage political

consciousness " again in brackets (which is a subjective

factor) "itself becomes an objective fact which must

be taken into account. Thus the almost complete rejec-

tion of the leaders by the masses in present day South

Africa can be attributed to the higher level of political

consciousness. In other words, this political conscious-

ness which is an attitude of mind has become an import-

ant objective factor."

Pausing there for a moment, Mr. Mandela. As far

as you have read, do these views seem to accord with what

you know of African National Congress policy?— Well, once

again I mustexplain that to me this sounds very theoretical

- very academic; it 's coached in very heavy language and

I don't follow it very clearly.

New in May, 1954, the Freedom Charter hadn't

been adopted yet?— No, it was adopted in June, 1955.

Yes, and in the second paragraph, the concluding

sentence, 'They must proceed to see the need for a change

fora new society,to plan the destruction of the old, and

the creation of a new system'?— Yes.

As you read it, bearing in mind the state of

15985 N.R, MANDELA

mind of the people writing in May, 1954, what would the

author appear to you to have in mind?— Well, I think

this is an interpretation of society in terms of the

Marxist philosophy.

Yes; so do I?— It appears to me to be so.

Mr. Mandela, may I just have the book for a mo-

ment please. Now, as still part of the same article, the

author stresses on page 855 the necessity for gleaning in-

formation from original sources and not relying on any

sort of hearsay evidence; then he says in the middle of

the pages 'We must read what the man himself says and

reach our conclusions. It is only on this basis that we

will be justified in describing our stand as independent.

Only thus can we ensure a balanced rational scientific

dialectic approach.' Now what would you understand there

by the dialectic approach, seen in relation to the intro-

ductory part of this article which you have just read to

the Court; what do you think the author was getting at?

What sort of approach was he urging upon the readers there

?— Do you want me to read this aloud?

Yes, please, it 's a very short passage?— 'We

must read what the man himself says and reach our conclu-

sions. It is only on this basis that we will be justified

in describing our stand as independent. Only thus can

be ensured a balanced rational scientific dialectic ap-

proach. Even if we are oppressed, fellow Africans, we

can possess a mind if freed from obscurantism ( ? ) . . . , '

Now pausing there, you see there that refer-

ence to the necessity for a dialectic approach?— Yes.

What would that convey to you?— My lords, it

conveys nothing to me, with due respect. I know that

1598 6. N.R.MAMDELA

dialectical materialism is part of the Marxist philosophy, 5

but I don't necessarily accept that the use of the term

'dialectic' always and invariably must be used in the Marxist

sense. I should suppose that the word 'dialectical' was

in the dictionaries long before Marxism was or any of the

Marxist philosophers. I don't know whether the author 10

here is using it in the ordinary sense, or whether he is

using it in the Marxist sense.

Does it confirm the suspicion you had when you

read the opening part of the article?— Well, quite ad-

mittedly I think the article is full of theoretical stuff, 15

Leftist stuff; quite clearly the cursory glimpse I've had

at that article does not make it clear to me whether he's

using it in that sense . . .

Just look at the original again please; can

you r ecall this particular issue of the Lodestar?— No, 20

my lords, I cannot recall it specifically.

Now next, Mr. Mandela, I would lite your com-

ments please on an extract from Exhibit B.18 which is

'Afrika' - Journal of the African National Congress Youth

League; would you tell me please whether or not this 25

appears to you to be one of the publications of the Youth

League?— My lords, it does purport to be a publication

of the Youth League. I cannot, however, remember seeing

this copy.

You can't remember that particular issue?-- No. 30

Nov/ in that issue there is an article called

'Ballyhoo', and I will read you a short portion which was

read into the record at page 1148 - - or perhaps you had

better read it yourself; it begins at line 29 - I've

marked the portion with a cross?— Yes.

15987 N.R. MANDELA

•Anyone who has not allowed himself to degenerate and

followed the pernicious line that ..the end of Capitalism

and Imperialism is the end of civilisation and culture,

will he able to see that mankind, united and collectively

is ready to make one mighty leap towards a new and higher

stage."

Pausing there, Mr. Mandela, how would that sen-

tence strike you, 'Mankind is ready to make one mighty

leap towards a new and higher stage's how do you under-

stand that?— It 's certainly a very dramatic phrase; I'm

afraid that's all I can say about it .

It means nothing else to you? The concept of

leaps - sudden leaps - - have you not encountered those

phrases in your political studies?— I may have, my lords.

Particularly a leap to a higher stage?— I may

have come across that phrase.

Does it ring a bell?— I don't know if it rings

a belle

At all events, Mr. Mandela, would you say that

that paragraph that you've just read is not inconsistent

with the policy of the African National Congress'7— No,

actually it has no relation whatsoever to the policy of

the African National Congress.

So it 's neither consistent, nor inconsistent

?— Yes. The Congress has no policy of 'mighty leaps' .

Well, has it any policy about the end of

Capitalism?— No, it hasn't

In the same journal, Mr. Mandela, there is an

article on the Congress of Democrats; it begins at page

- at the foot of page 1149 of the record, and it says

there has been an important conference in Johannesburg,

15988 N.R. Mi,MELA

to establish organisations in South Africa committed to

the struggle for the achievement of the principles of the

African National Congress. Is that how you understood

the role of the South African Congress of Democrats?— That

is how I understood it.

And as far as you know, Mr. Mandela, was there a 1 0

complete identity of aims and methods between these two

organisations; your organisation and the South African

Congress of Democrats?— My lords, I wouldn't say that

theye was complete identity of aims and objects but this

I know,that the Congress of Democrats endeavoured to the 15

utmost of its ability to carry out the aims for which the

Congress is fighting. ^

Mr. Mandela, from another witness we've had the

apt phrase that the African National Congress was the

senior partner of the Congress Movement?— That is so, my 2 0

lords.

There is a phrase in this article which seems to

be an echo of that, in the middle of page 1150; the

author of this article says that this - that is the Con-

gress of Democrats - this is a national movement of the 25

Europeans pledged to a policy of working with and under

the leadership of Congress?— Yes.

I take it that's a fair statement?— It is, my

lords, yes.

Now the portion I want to read to you follows 3°

immediately upon that, and it's very short. It says: -

'We would like to pause here and draw attention to a fact

that is often lost sight of, the expression 'liberation'

from the point of view of the European democrat cannot

bear the same meaning as when it is used by the Africa^. 35

15989 N.R .MANDELA

Thus liberation from the point of view of the Democratic 5

European would concretely mean freedom from class oppres-

sion. In other words, every time a European in this coun-

try speaks of liberation his mind must jump to the concept

of freedom from economic exploitation under Capitalism;

being relatively free from national oppression this concept

is the one that occurs immediately and spontaneously to

him. As for the African the tendency is for him to think

in terms of the removal of class or national oppression

whenever the expression liberation is employed. The fact

that national oppression and class oppression are twin

problems interlinked and interlocked is what occurs to

him when he thinks again. This crudely put is the con-

tradiction that has always existed between the European

and the African democrat in this country'. I want to put

to you, Mr. Mandela, that this is a terse but correct

statement of how the Congress Movement saw, or understood

the concept of liberation?--- I definitely disagree; as

far as the African National Congress, most decidedly; it

does not express the point of view of the policy of the

African National Congress. I also, as far as I understand

the policy of the Congress of Democrats, say it has no

policy on the question of class struggles at all , and

it has no such conception of the meaning of liberation.

I would say that that article - - I don't even know where

the Crown gets it from - - is an expression of the point

of view either of the author, or the man who delivered

that speech.

Mandela, the Crown gets it from Afrika, a

journal of the African National Congress Youth League?—

Yfell , the Youth League is an organisation - - Afrika is

r

10

15

r i

15990, N.R. MANDELA

a publication of the Youth League, and I suppose that

the Youths are free to express their point of view as

they see it, but it has no bearing in any shape or form

- as far as the policy of the African National Congress

is concerned.

Well, Mandela, disregarding for the moment

where it is stated, must we infer from your r eply that

as far as you are concerned, and the African National

Congress is concerned, this passage I've just read to

you is a gross and wicked distortion of the role of the

South African Congress of Democrats?— No, my lords.

Well, is it inaccurate?— Well, if it pur-

ports to explain the policy or the point of view of the

African National Congress, then it is most inaccurate.

But I don't think it does, my lords.

RUMPEF J" It says that in regard to the

Africans, the term 'Liberation' certainly means a thing.

It primarily means liberation from national oppression?—

Yes, my lord.

Now, coming to the Europeans, liberation

primarily doesn't mean that, because comparatively speak-

ing they don't suffer under national oppression, so in

the opinion of th writer liberation to those Europeans

who adhere to the principles of liberation, it means

something else, and in the opinion of the w riter it

means liberation from class oppression?— Yes, my lord.

Well, I say . . .

"That wouB you say was the point of view

of the Congress of Democrats as far as you knew it?

In regard to this particular statement, Mr. Mandela?— 35

20

25

50

L

15984. N.R.MANDELA

Well, my lord, as far as I know the point of view of

the Congress of Democrats, they unreservedly support

the point of view of the African National Congress,

that ours is a struggle against white supremacy. We

are committed to fight for the realisation of the de-

mands set out in the Free don Charter, and for that pro-

gramme we need collaboration and co-operation between

all the various social classes amongst the African people.

In telle ctuals, workers, people, peasants, small s hop-

keepers - - all those people must come together. We

have no doctrine whatsoever as to that . . whether

you phrase it in relation to the term liberation . . .

My question is - and if you don't know then

you must say so - - do you know what the policy is, or

rather what the point of view is of the Congress of

Democrats in regard to this statement?— Oh, I really

don't know, my lord.

In other words, whether the Congress of

Democrats regarded itself as an organisation pledged

to - - as far as the Europeans were concerned, their

own members only - obtain liberation from class

struggles?— I don't know if the Congress of Democrats

have such a policy, my lord, but as far as I know - and

I know some of its members - they are people who have

no particular theories in regard to the class struggle

and I should be most surprised if the Congress of De-

mocrats has such a policy as is contained in this pub-

lication.

Yes.

MR. HOXTERi Mr. Mandela, who are the mem-

bers of the Congress of Democrats who are known to you

15992 N.R.MAHDELA

10

15

who are so indifferent to this concept of class struggle

?— I don't know if I said indifferent, my lords.

Well, who would not touch it with a "barge

pole?— We have in this record Mrs. Helen Joseph; she

gave evidence and if I recall her evidence clearly she

said in specific terms that the Congress of Democrats

had . . .

No, in that respect I agree with you; she

took a very strong view there; is there anybody else

you can think of?— Well, I cannot think of any par-

ticular individuals now, but given time I could give

you a list of people who I think, rightly or wrongly,

have no such view.

I would be grateful if you would, Mr.Mandela

?— Yes.

Next, Mr. Mandela, would you look please at

Exhibit NRM.30 - this is an Isizwa of January, 1956; do

yourecall that this exhibit was in your possession?—

Yes, I do r ecall.

Can you remember what this publication was 25

?— My lords, I recall this Isizwa that was taken from

And what was Isizwa?— My lords, I'm not sure

now whether it was published as an organ of the A.N.C.

in the Cape, in the Eastern Cape, or whether it was an

independent publication.

On page 10 of this exhibit - I shall hand it

to you presently - there is an article called 'The Free-

dom Charter of the 1949 Programme of Action' . It starts

with an attack on certain people who are described as 35

20

30

15993. U.R.MANDELA

reactionary?— Yes.

Can you tell us, generally speaking, how you

or the African National Congress would understand a per-

son who in the political struggle is described as a

reactionary?— A person who for example who opposes the

demands of the Congress Movement for universal franchise, 1 0

and who s ays 'Gentlemen, I think we should have a separate

South Africa' . I would regard such person as a reaction-

cry.

On the first page of this article, the article

Criticises certain so called African nationalists who 15

co-operated with such reactionary groups as for example

the Liberal Party, or the Institute of Pace Relations?—

Yes.

Do you personally consider the Institute of

Race Relations to be a reactionary body?— Well, it 20

might depend on the issue, on the Defiance campaign for

example. In spite of all their talk about equality, and

freedom, when we launched the Defiance campaign they came

to us and said 'Gentlemen, we don't think that this is

the best way of expressing your grievances. Please with- 25

draw i t ' , and when we refused then they attacked us.

Well, in relation to that issue I think it would be quite

in order to refer to them as reactionary.

Despite the fact that the Defiance Campaign

created a situation which was detrimental to the safety 30

and security of the State?— Well, you have first to

explain what you mean by that, because the Defiance

Campaign has been before the Court, and with due res-

pect I don't think that is the view of the Court.

No; but your view?— In the sense in which I 35

15994. N . R . M D E L A

explained it , oh yes.

Well, you explain it in the sense that it was

highly undesirable from the point of view of the Govern-

ment and the State?— Yes; what I explained as undesir-

able was the fact that the overwhelming majority of the

citizens of the country are compelled, because of the

vicious policy of the Government, to break the laws in

order to register their protests, and to highlight their

Bufferings and difficulties. That was undesirable.

Now whether it was undesirable or not, the point is this,

this was our only method of registering our protests,

and we feel that we had every moral right to do so, and

anybody who was a Progressive in the sense of supporting

our claims for universal franchise, we feel that that

person's place was alongside of us.

So you think this description of the Institute

is a proper one?— Well, I would use it , as far as Ifm

concerned,in relation to their attitude towards the De-

fiance Campaign.

Then on page 11 of this issue, still in the

same article, the author sayss 'There were grave defects

in the 1949 Programme of Action which continued to agi-

tate the minds of thinkers in the A.N.C. in the years

following its adoption. During those years, through

the African National Congress, through its published

statements, presidential addresses and executive re-

ports clarified and defined the concepts contained in

the programme of action, and also made the policy crystal

clear on those matters which the Programme of Action

had left unsaid. To-day all these find concrete ex-

pression in a single document of tremendous power.

15995. U.E. WJTOELA

That is the Freedom Charter.. The elaboration of the

ideas which were badly or vaguely formulated in the 1949

Programme of Action can be summarised as followss' Then

it sayss (1) , ( 2 ) , ( j ) and (4) - I shall hand this to

you at once, Mandela - - (4) sayst 'The genuine equality

will be impossible unless the present economic system -1-0

based as it is on exploitation of the many a few is com-

pletely smashed and a newone put in its place in which

exploitation of man by man will be entirely eliminated,'

?—. Yes. Well, if by that phrase the writer means that

Capitalism . . . .

Before you go on, Just have a look at it and tell

me what you think the writer means?

(COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 2.15 P.M.)

25

30

15996. N.R.M/iNDELA

OK THE COURT RESUMING-s

MR. HOEXTEHs Yes, Mr. Mandela?-- My lords,

"before I comment on this passage put to me by the Crown

before the adjournment, the question had been put to me

in regard to the members of the Congress of Democrats

who did not share the views in regard to the meaning of

liberation, as putto me by the Crown. Now, I have been

trying to think the matter over between 1 and 2 o'clock,

and I think I can now mention one or two other names.

Would you please do so?— I have in mind Mr, Peter

Byleveld, a co-conspiretor in this case. Mr. Lee Warden,.

Do you know Mr. Byleveld well?— I know him well.

And you say that he is not prone to see the libe-

ratory struggle in the sense in which . . . ?— Not as far

as I know, my lords.

He is not interested in the class struggle?—

Not as far as I know. And there is Mr. Lee Warden,

Ruth Hayman, Phyllis Atlman, and there may be others:

but those are the names that come to mind.

Yes. You have referred in your evidence, Mr.

Mandela, to other members of this organisation - Lionel

Bernstein was one, was he not?— Yes. He used to be

before he was banned.

Now do you know what his views were in this

connection?— Well, I think his views are as set out

in the three lectures, and I know that he was a member

of the former Communist Party of South Africa.

And Lionel Porman, do you know whether he was

a member of this organisation?— He was.

And what were his views?— I think Lionel Porman

was a Marxist. I think so.

15997. N.R. MANDELA

(Witness); Whether, of course, he would share those 5

views as they are put there I don't know. In fact,whether

Mr.Bernstein shared that particular formulation, as to

the aims and objects, I doubt it.

Why, Mr. Mandela?-— Because I have never under-

stood that to be the aims and objects of the Congrress of 1 0

Democrats.

Well, you mentioned the names of some members

who do subscribe to that view, and you say you know others

who do not subscribe to that view?— Perhaps I didn't ex-

press myself accurately. I am not aware of any member of 15

the Congress of Democrats except the author; I am not aware

of any other member of the Congress of Democrats who feels

that the duty of the Congress of Democrats should be as

statedthere, but I do know some members of the Congress

of Democrats who believe in the theory of the class 2 0

struggle. That's the point I wanted to make.

Yes. Now, returning to the exhibit you were

considering before the lunch adjournment?— Well, my lords,

I hove now considered this passage and perhaps to refresh

the memory of your lordships I ' l l read its It says J - 25

'That genuine equality will be impossible unless the pre-

sent economic system based as it is on exploitation of

the many by a few is completely smashed, and a newone

put in its place in which exploitation of man by man will

be entirely eliminated'. Now, my lords, this to me is 30

capable of two interpretations. It may be used in the

sense that as long as the present economic set-up is

one of restricting free economy, then we cannot have

free enterprise as far as the majority of the people of

the country is concerned, and to that extent we cannot 3 5

15984. N.R.MANDELA

achieve equality until these rectrictions are broken 5

down, and free economy is introduced. If it means that -

and I suggest that that is a fair interpretation of the

passage - then it is consistent with the policy of the

African National Congress. But if , my lords, it means

that to achieve freedom we will have to break up, destroy 10

capitalism, and replace it with a socialist system, then

it is inconsistent with the policy of the Congress, and

as an expression of the policy and viewpoint of the

Congress it is most inaccurate.

Mr. Mandela, looking at the language, taking ^

the face value of the language, it uses the words ' ^ntil

the economic system is completely smashed'?— Yes,

Doesn't that suggest the break-up to which you

now refer?— No, my lord, not necessarily 1 that is a

possible interpretation, but there is also this other 2 0

interpretation which in my opinion is quite a fair in-

terpretation of the passage.

BEKKER J; Would you suggest that in a system

where there is no free enterprise you may have equality

of man being exploited by man? You see, you stated that 25

if as long as the present economic set-up is one of res-

tricting free economy, then you cannot have free enter-

prise, and you cannot achieve equality?— Yes, my lord.

And that document uses the phrase, I think 30

somewhere about 'exploitation of man by man'?— Yes.

'Until that is eliminated'?— Yes.

And I think on the evidence yesterday, or

before the adjournment, in reference to the three

lectures the phrase also occurred 'Exploitation of man

by man'?— Yes ,mylord.

15999. N. R.MANDELA

Which was really, I think, striking at the capital- 5

ist system?-- Yes.

It was used in that context?— Yes.

Now here this phrase also occurs, and I would

like to know from you is, in your view would there he

exploitation - - room for the phrase exploitation of man 10

by man where you haven't got free economic enterpris e?

It 's on the meaning of that article that I'm asking you?—

Well, - my lord . . . .

Let me put it this way; you say if the phrase

•exploitation of man by man' is not a happy phrase, to 15

put it that way, to refer to a system where there is no

free economic enterprise?— Yes, my lord.

But the phrase 'exploitation of man by man' is

a happy phrase when you deal with the capitalist system

as opposed to the socialist system?— Yes. 20

Then it may be that the interpretation of that

phrase in this passage goes one way?— I don't know

whether I clearly understand you or not, sir.

Yesterday I think - - you must correct me if

I'm wrong - - the phrase used suggested 'exploitation 25

of man by man' is with reference to the three lectures

directed at the capitalist system?-- Yes.

That in the capitalist system you find a

position of man being exploited by man?— Yes.

Now, when it comes to interpreting this pas- 30.

sage you suggest it may be capable of one of two mean-

ings?— Yes.

If it ' s the one meaning you say it is consist-

ent with A.N.C. policy?— Yes.

If it ' s the ther meaning it 's inconsistent with 35

16000. N.R.MANDELA

A.N.C. policy?— Yes. ^

Now I 'd like to discuss with you what is the

interpretation to be given to that passage? Here occurs

the phrase 'exploitation of man by man'?— Yes.

That we know is something that occurs in the

1C

capitalist system?— Yes.

Right. Now I ' l l put it this way to you: why

should that passage not be interpreted as an attack on

the capitalist system? The latter of the two meanings

you say is inconsistent with the A.N.C. policy?— Yes,

my lord.

Why should it not be interpreted in that way?—

Well, my lords, let me put my reply this way. This phrase

may be interpreted as an attack on the capitalist sys-

tem; it may. 2(

Well, that's clear?— Yes.

The question is: shouldn't it be so interpreted

- that is what I 'd like to know?— Well, not necessarily,

my lord, because assuming that the terms of the Freedom

Charter are realised, we would have a State in which ex- 2'

ploitation of man by man has, if not altogether but to

a very large extent, been eliminated, yet that would

still be a capitalist state.

MR. HOEXTERs Mr. Mandela, forgetting for a

moment the policy of the African National Congress, as 3

you understood it , on your reading of this paragraph,

does it or does it not constitute an attack on capitalism

?— It may constitute an attack on Capitalism.

Perhaps my question wasn't clear. We know that

it 's susceptible to two meansings. The question is - how

does it strike you personally; I'm asking you deliberately 35

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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