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GLOBALFEMINISMSCOMPARATIVECASESTUDIESOF

WOMEN’SACTIVISMANDSCHOLARSHIP

SITE:NIGERIA

TranscriptofBolanleAweInterviewer:RonkeOlawale

Location:Ibadan,NigeriaDate:October31,2019

UniversityofMichigan

InstituteforResearchonWomenandGender1136LaneHallAnnArbor,MI48109-1290

Tel:(734)764-9537

E-mail:um.gfp@umich.eduWebsite:http://www.umich.edu/~glblfem

©RegentsoftheUniversityofMichigan,2017

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Dr.BolanleAweAdistinguishedscholar,feminist,andeducator,BolanleAweattendedSt. Anne's School,highschool in Ibadan,andcompleted theAdvancedLevelprogramatthePerseSchoolforGirlsinCambridge.Dr.AwegraduatedwithanMA(Honors)inhistoryfrom St. Andrews University, Scotland in 1958 and a DPhil in history from theUniversity of Oxford, England in 1964. She joined the Department of History,UniversityofIbadan(UI)onOctober1,1960--thedateofNigeria’sindependence--andbecamea fullprofessor in1976.Thesameyear,shebecameaSeniorResearchFellow intheInstituteofAfricanStudiesatUI,andshelaterservedasthefirstfemaledirectoroftheInstitute(1983to1991).Duringthisperiodshe focusedonwomen’shistory.Oneof hermost important contributions to feminismandscholarship is theWomen’sResearchandDocumentationCentre (WORDOC),whichshe founded in1985.For thisaccomplishment,sheisreferredtoasthematriarchoffeministhistoryinNigeria.WORDOCcontinuestoserveasaresourcecenterforthestudyofwomen.Amongothers,shewasthefoundingchair of the Nigerian National Commission for Women (1990-1992) (which laterbecametheFederalMinistryofWomenAffairsandSocialDevelopment),secretaryoftheNational Council of Women’sSocieties,WesternRegionBranch(1971-1973),andamember of the founding committee of the International Federation for Research inWomen’sHistory.ShespentmanyyearsworkingonthedevelopmentofhighereducationinNigerianuniversitiesandwentontoserveastheProf-ChancellorattheUniversityofNigeria,Nsukka(UNN).

RonkeOlawale isaPhDCandidateinSocialWorkandAnthropologyattheUniversityofMichigan.Broadlyspeakingsheisinterestedinculture,care,andinfectiousdisease;deathand dying, and meaning-making; kinship and child welfare/wellbeing; andintergenerational care.Herdissertationexplores the social and cultural context inwhichthe2013-2016EbolaVirusDisease(EVD)epidemicoccurredinLiberia.

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RonkeOlawale:OkayIthinkweareonnow.Goodmorning,MaBolanleAwe:MorningRO: My Name is Ronke. Thank you for accepting to participate in this project. Iwantedtostartoutbyaskingyoutointroduceyourself.Tellmeyourname,andhowyou would like to be addressed. But first, as you tell me your name, I will alsoappreciateitifyoucouldspellitsothatwedon'tmakeanymistake.BA: Well, my name is Bolanle Awe. My surname is Awe. My first name is Bolanle andnormally I like tobeaddressed like that:Mrs.AweorProfessorAwe,whateveryou like.Doesn’treallymattermuch.RO:Okay,canyouspellyournamelike:yourfirstname,thenyourlastname?BA:Yes;myfirstnameisBolanleandit’sB,O,L,A,N,L,E.RO:Andyourlastname?BA:Awe.A,W,E.Verysimple.RO:Allright;thankyousomuch.SowearegoingtospendaboutanhourorlessonthisconversationandIwouldjustliketostartwith,ifyoucouldtellmealittleaboutyourbackground.Thankyou.BA:Well, Iwasbornandbred in thispart of the country.Actually Iwasborn in aplacecalledIlesa1butmyfathercomesfromthistown:Ibadan.2MymothercamefromIlesaandthatwaswhere Iwent to school. Iwent to primary school there.When they decided tomoveto IbadanIalsomovedto Ibadan,andI finishedmyprimaryschoolhere in IbadanandtheschooliscalledStJames’sSchoolOke-Bola.3Itstillexistsandit’sabigschoolandthat'swherefromthereIwentontoundertakemysecondaryeducationinLagos.4Iwentto a school calledCMSGirl’s School Lagos and I amproud to say that that school is 150

1ThecityofIlesaisinsouthwestNigeria'sOsunState.("Ilesa."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilesa,5/31/20).2IbadanisthecapitalofOyoStateandoneofthemostpopulouscitiesinNigeria.("Ibadan."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibadan,5/31/20).3TheCathedralofSt.James,Oke-BolaisanAnglicanchurchinIbadan.("Home."TheCathedralofSt.JamestheGreat.http://cathedralofstjames.org/,6/6/20).4LagosisthelargestcityinNigeria,locatedonthecountry'ssoutherncoast.(“Lagos.”Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagos,5/10/20).

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yearsold.5 It istheoldestgirl’sschool inNigeria,andaftersometimeitwasmovedfromLagos to Ibadan and I joined another school here called Kudeti Girl’s School, which is asmallerschoolandtheschoolthenbecameknownastheSt.Anne’sSchoolIbadan.AndStAnne’shasbeenonsincethen.Butnotquiteamonth,notquiteaweekago,wecelebratedthe150thanniversaryfornotonlythosefromIbadanbutalsothosewhocamefromLagos;and it was a big affair. We had a big service in the church. People came from all overNigeria,butalsosomeoftheoldgirlscamefromotherpartsoftheworld.SomecamefromtheUS,somecame fromEngland,andall sortsofplaces;and itwasabigbigcelebrationanditwasfuntobepartofit.RO:Wow.BA:Itwasreallyreallybigandwewereallsoproudandhappyaboutitbecause,asIsaid,wewereoneofthefirstsetsofgirlstohavethesortofsecondaryeducationthatwehad.Wewerethevery firstset tohavewhatwecalledtheschool leavingcertificateandfromthere,wewentabroad.Iwentabroadwithanumberofmyschoolmates--someofthemarestill around. There’s Professor Olurinwho is an ophthalmologist, and ummwho are theotherpeople?6AndI’mthere,andanumberofusallwenttosecondaryschoolsinBritaintodoourA-levels,andfromtherewewentontotheuniversity.7IwasinthesecondaryschoolinaschoolinCambridgecalledThePerseSchoolforGirlsinCambridge.8ThatwaswhereIdidmyA-level.AndfromthereIwentontoStAndrewsUniversityinScotland.9

5In1869,theChurchMissionarySociety(CMS,nowtheAnglicanChurch)createdSt.Anne'sSecondarySchool(previouslyknownasKudetiGirlsSchool)inIbadan.TheschoolwaslatermergedwiththeGirls'SchoolinLagosandbecameknownasSt.Anne'sin1950.(Aladeojebi,Gbade.(2016)."HistoryofYorubaLand."PartridgePublishing.https://books.google.com/books?id=jbBODQAAQBAJ&pg=PT141&lpg=PT141&dq=cms+girls+school+lagos&source=bl&ots=I-0lsMbxu2&sig=ACfU3U23CHdA9WjWRPKn2Z9LUY6cOmygdw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjI28ikx97pAhXaVs0KHWWMAGIQ6AEwDnoECBsQAQ#v=onepage&q=cms%20girls%20school%20lagos&f=false,5/31/20).6ProfessorOyinadeOlurinisthefirstfemaleProfessorofMedicineinNigeria.See:Oderinlo,O.,Hassan,A.O.,&Bogunjoko,T.(2019).TheHistoryofModernOphthalmologyinNigeria:ASynopsisofInstitutions,EventsandPersonalities.OphthalmologyResearch:AnInternationalJournal,1-8.(http://journalor.com/index.php/OR/article/view/30135);http://dawncommission.org/professor-oyinade-olurin/7"ALevel"isanabbreviationfor"AdvancedLevel"andreferstoaqualificationoftheGeneralCertificateofEducationthatsecondaryorpre-universitystudentscompleteincountriesincludingEnglandandWales.("GCEAdvancedLevel."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCE_Advanced_Level,5/31/20).Generally,NigeriahasabolishedthissystembutitisstillbeingusedbyprivatehighschoolstopreparestudentsforstudiesinBritain.8ThePerseSchoolforGirlswasapublicdayschoolfoundedin1881.In2010,theschoolopenedaco-educationalPre-Prepprogram.TheSixthFormCollegeisalsoco-educational.(Kendall,Bridget."130yearsofPerseGirls:Ahistoryin10objects."StephenPerseFoundation.https://www.stephenperse.com/attachments/download.asp?file=283&type=pdf,5/31/20).9TheUniversityofSt.Andrews,foundedin1413,isoneoftheoldestpublicuniversitiesinScotland.ItislocatedinthetownofSt.AndrewsinFife.("UniversityofStAndrews."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_St_Andrews,5/31/20).

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ThePersewasavery,veryhighlycompetitiveschooland toget into thePerse itselfwastough now to get from there to the universitywas even tougher and therewere only, Ithink, about twowomen’s colleges in thewhole of theUniversity of Cambridge.10 And itwas really tough to get in andanumberof us justdecided therewasnopoint trying sosomewenttoLondon,butIdecidedIdidn’tlikeLondon.IdecidedtogotoScotlandwhichIreally liked. Iwas inScotlandfor fouryears; thatwaswhereIdidmyfirstdegree. IreadHistoryandIreallyenjoyedbeinginScotland.Itwasalwaysaveryniceplace,veryfriendly,andtheuniversitywasalsoverysociable,veryfriendly.AndafterthatIdecidedthatthebestthingformewastotryanddopostgraduatelevel.Ididmyundergraduate level. Igotmyfirstdegree inScotlandatStAndrews.Fortunately,mytwoprofessorsinStAndrewswerefromOxfordandwegotonverywellandtheysaid“look,forpostgraduateworkyouhavetogoontoOxford”soIwentontoOxford.IwenttoSomerville College in Oxford.11 There are five colleges, women’s colleges, in Oxford andSomerville,Ithink,istheoldestofthelot.AndwhenIgotthereIhadtobeinterviewedbythe history don--the woman who is in charge of history, and I told her I wanted to doAfricanhistoryandshejustsaid“nonsense”thatthere'snothinglikeAfricanhistory.AndIsaidthereissomethinglikeAfricanhistory,andwearguedaboutitforquiteawhile,andshesaidallsheknewis that there’s thehistoryofEuropeans inAfrica,which isdifferentfromAfricanhistory.But fortunately formebefore I came toOxford, I had read twobooks by twoNigerians,ProfessorKennethDikewhowroteontheNigerDelta12andProfessorSaburiBiobakuwhowroteontheEgba.13ThesewerethefirsttwoNigerianstowriteonAfricanhistoryandI

10TheUniversityofCambridge,foundedin1209,isaresearchuniversityinCambridge,UnitedKingdom.Currently,onlytheMurrayEdwards,Newnham,andLucyCavendishcollegesattheUniversityofCambridgearefemale-only.Twenty-oneoftheuniversity'scollegesadmitbothmaleandfemalestudents.("UniversityofCambridge."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge,5/31/20;"CollegesoftheUniversityofCambridge."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleges_of_the_University_of_Cambridge,5/31/20).11SomervilleCollegeintheUniversityofOxford,foundedin1879,wasoneoftheuniversity'sfirstall-femalecolleges.Thecollegenowadmitsbothmenandwomen.("SomervilleCollege,Oxford."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerville_College,_Oxford,5/31/20).12KennethOnwukaDike(1917–1983)wasanIgboNigerianhistoriancreditedwithplayinganintegralroleinthenon-colonialinterpretationofthecountry'shistory.HealsoservedasthefirstNigerianVice-ChancelloroftheUniversityofIbadan.HisbookTradeandPoliticsintheNigerDelta1830–1885focusedon19th-centuryeconomics,politics,andanti-imperialistactionsintheregion.("KennethDike."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Dike,5/31/20).13SaburiOladeniBiobaku(1918–2001)wasaYorubaNigerianacademic,historian,andpolitician.HeservedasViceChancelloroftheUniversityofLagosaswellaspro-chancelloroftheObafemiAwolowoUniversity.His1957bookTheEgba'sandTheirNeighboursiscenteredaroundtheEgba's(anethnicsubgroupoftheYorubapeople)historyinthecontextofpoliticalchangesinYorubalandandthe19th-centuryarrivalof

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wassoexcitedthatIactuallywrotetotheeditorofthepaperwhichreviewedtheirbooks,that I wanted to reach them, and he introduced me to Profesor Biobaku and Biobakuinvitedme to lunch,andwe talked,and I saidhowdidyougoaboutdoingwhatyouaredoing.Hetoldmehowhediditandhesaid,“lookyoutoocandoAfricanhistorynow.WehavedonetheEgbas,youalsocandoontheIbadans.”AndthatwashowIgottodoontheIbadansandwhenIgottoOxford,myhistorydonjustthoughtIwaswastingmytime;andshesaid“lookwecan'ttakeyou.Ifyousayyouwanttodothehistory,colonialhistory,thatis thehistoryofEuropeans inAfrica,we’llbepreparedtotakeyoubutnot thehistoryofAfricans inAfrica.”Andshesaidsorryanddismissedme,but Iwasquite sure therewassomething likeAfricanhistory after those twomen. So I justwentout, but adayor twoafter that, theprincipalsof thecollegesent formeandsaid theywanted toseeme. Igotthereandhelookedatmeandsaid“lookMiss.Fajembola,wellwehavedecidedtogiveyouachance,we’regoingtoadmityouintothiscollege”andIwassurprised.Butyourhistorydonjusttoldmethatthere'snoroomforsomebodylikeme.SohesaidyesIagreewithherbutwelikedthewayyoustoodyourground;Ithinkthatwasmyhallmarkthen.Theysaidtheywere surprised that Iwas able to standmy ground even though I hadn't done anyAfricanhistorysohesaidwhattheyhaddecidedwastogivemeachanceandthatIhavetoprovetothemthere’ssomethinglikeAfricanhistory.AndsothatwashowIstartedAfricanhistoryinOxfordandIwasfortunatetohaveasmysupervisor a lady called Margery Perham.14 You might have heard of Margery Perham;Margery Perhamwas the lady who actually gave Nigeria its name. And she was a veryfierce,impressivewoman.SheknewsomuchaboutthehistoryofAfricaandsoon.Andshewasaconsultanttothecolonialoffice15;andallthepeoplewhoweregoingtobeworkinginthecolonialofficeinoneformoranother,evenincludingpeoplelikeTomMboya,16TafawaBalewa,17 and so on: they used to come to her college inOxford,Nuffield College, 18 for

Christianmissionaries.("SaburiBiobaku."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saburi_Biobaku,5/31/20;"Egbapeople."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egba_people,5/31/20).14MargeryPerham(1895–1982)wasaBritishhistorianandscholarwhostudiedandwroteaboutAfrica.SheisspecificallyknownforhersupportofBritishdecolonizationofAfricainthe1950sand1960s.("MargeryPerham."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margery_Perham,5/31/20).15TheColonialOfficewasaBritishgovernmentdepartmenttaskedwithoverseeingseveralofthecountry'scolonies.TheColonialOfficewasestablishedin1854andre-mergedwiththeCommonwealthRelationsOfficein1966,formingtheCommonwealthOffice.In1968,theCommonwealthOfficewasmergedwiththeForeignOfficetocreatetheForeignandCommonwealthOffice.("ColonialOffice."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Office,5/31/20).16ThomasJosephOdhiamboMboya(1930–1969)wasaKenyanauthor,politician,andactivistfortradeunions,PanAfricanism,andKenyanindependencefromBritain.MboyaisregardedasoneofthefoundingfathersoftheRepublicofKenya.Heservedasthecountry'sCabinetMinister,aidedinthecreationoftheKenyaAfricanNationalUnion,andservedastheparty'sfirstSecretary-General.("TomMboya."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Mboya,5/31/20).17AbubakarTafawaBalewa(1912–1966)wasthefirstPrimeMinisterofNigeriawhenthecountrygainedindependencefromBritainin1960.Hewasmurderedandhisadministrationwasoverthrownbyamilitary

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consultationandshesaidthatshewasgoingtohaveanumberofusasherstudents--herresearch students--and that was how I got to beMs. Perham’s student. It was not easybecausetherewereabout8or9ofuswhowereherstudents,andshewassobusyandshewaswritingthehistory,thebiography,ofLordLugardatthetimeshewassupervisingus,andwheneverwecameforsupervision,she’dgiveusachapterandsay“look,goandreadthat chapter andgivemeyour comments.”19And thatwasall the supervisionwegot. SosomeofhercolleaguesthenstartedtalkingtomeandsaidwellhowareyougettingonwithMs.Perham,soItoldthemI’mnotgettingalongwithMs.Perham;allI'mdoingisreadingthe chapters on Lord Lugard, so she heard about and she said “look I hear you’ve beentalking about me and you told the people I’m not supervising you I’m just giving youchaptersfromLugard’sbook”butIsaidMs.Perhamthat'sthetruth.Shesaidyouareverynaughtybutnowwearegoingtostartworking.Andwestartedworkingandshewasextremelyniceandsheusedto—shehadasisterwhohadlivedinEastAfricawhowasextremelynice,soanytimeIcameforsupervision,Iwouldfirsthavebreakfastwiththembeforethesupervision.20AndaftersometimeMs.PerhamthoughtIwasgettingtoorelaxedandshetoldmethatshewasgoingtosendmeaway.Thatnormally. studentswho come for supervision come in the academic gowns.And that thenext timeIcamewithoutmynextacademicgownshewasnotgoing tosuperviseme.SothereafterIstarted,andwebecameverygoodfriends,andshewasveryrelaxedandverynicethoughnoteverybodyinOxfordwaslikethat.WehadagroupofuswhoweresupposedtobelearningWestAfricanhistory,andsomeofourprofessorsdidn’tbelievethatthoseofuswhoweretheresupposedtobedoingAfricanhistory, they feltwewere justwastingour time.Theywerenot interested inus and themostterribleonewassomebodycalledProfessorHarlow.21Hewastheoverallboss,andhewouldgiveyouapapertoreadandyouwouldreadthepaperandthenhewouldcommenton it, and everybody else would comment. And there was this day when one of our

coupinJanuaryof1966.("AbubakarTafawaBalewa."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abubakar_Tafawa_Balewa,5/31/20).18NuffieldCollegeisasmallsocialsciencesgraduatecollegeattheUniversityofOxford,establishedin1937.("AbouttheCollege."NuffieldCollege,UniversityofOxford.https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/the-college/about-the-college/,5/31/20).19Lugard:TheYearsofAdventure,1858-1898andLugard:TheYearsofAuthority1898-1945byMargeryPerhamfollowthelifeofBritishsoldierandcolonialauthorityFrederickLugard.("FrederickLugard,1stBaronLugard."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Lugard,_1st_Baron_Lugard,5/31/20).20MargeryPerham'ssister,Ethel,wasmarriedtoaDistrictCommissionerinSomaliland.("ChronologyofMargeryPerham'slife."TheJournalofImperialandCommonwealthHistory,19(3),229.https://doi.org/10.1080/03086539108582857,5/31/20).21VincentHarlow(1898–1961)wasahistorianandscholarofBritishimperialhistoryattheUniversityofOxford.HeismostfamousforhisbookTheFoundingoftheSecondBritishEmpire,1763-1793,publishedin1952.("VincentT.Harlow."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_T._Harlow,5/31/20).

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colleaguesfromGhana,abrilliantboy,verybrilliant,IsaacTuffour.22HegotafirstclassinLegonbeforecomingtoOxford.23HegavehispaperandProfessorHarlowwassupposedtomake his comments. He refused to make any comments, just kept quiet. We were allwaiting,waiting forProfessorHarlow;andhiscolleagueswhowererelatively junioralsocouldn’t say anything. After some time, he turned to all of his colleagues and said “wellwhatwas thepaper fornextweek?”Whichmeans that thepaper for thisweek isanon-starter.AndthatalmostdestroyedIsaacTuffourbecauseweallthoughthewasabrilliant,brilliantperson.And in factmostof theGhanaianswereveryveryupset that thisshouldhappenedtoIsaac.Butatthattimetherewasalotofprejudice.Trevor-Roperwasanotherprofessorofhistoryandhegaveaninterviewontelevisionandhesaidthatthere’snothinglikeAfrican history, that perhaps in the future theremight beAfrican history but at themomentthere'snoAfricanhistory.24There'snothinglikeAfricanhistory,andhedismissedtheideaofAfricanhistoryontelevisionandthatbecameknownalmostallover!RO:Wow.BA:Peoplewerequoting itandquoting it,butanyhowwestruggledonandstruggledonuntil we were able to- there was a library in Oxford, Rhodes House,25 which is RhodesHouseLibrary,whereanumberofourAfricanstudentsusedtoconsultthebooksthereandso on and we had quite a group of us who used to go around together. And we had awonderful time there; therewasaprofessorof socialanthropologywhowe thoughtwasverygood,inthesensethat,atleasthetaughtabouttheanthropologyofAfricaandmadeus realize that it does exist. Well, there were a number of them like that made lifeinterestingforusandsomeofourco-studentswereveryfortunate.One of them unfortunately is gone now: Professor Antonio. He was one of the mostbrilliant. He had a scholarship from one of the universities and he had a very generousgrant,soheusedtotakeusalongandwewouldfollowTunjiallovertheplace.TherewasapubnottoofarfromRhodesHouseandnottoofarfrommycollegeeither;andthispub,hewouldtakeusallthereandyouwouldchooseyourdrinksandchoosewhateveryouwant.Andhewouldpayforitandtakeusbacktothelibrary.AndIrememberIhadtheprivilegeofbeingtakenbyhimtotheUnion--theOxfordUniversityUnion--whichatthattimeasa

23TheUniversityofGhanaislocatedinthetownofLegon.Theuniversityisoftenreferredtobythetownname.("Legon."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legon,6/1/20).24HughTrevor-Roper(1914–2003)wasaBritishhistorianandprofessorattheUniversityofOxford.HespecializedinthehistoryofearlymodernBritainandNaziGermany.("HughTrevor-Roper."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Trevor-Roper,6/1/20).25Rhodeshousewasconstructedin1928inmemoryoftheUniversityofOxfordalumCecilRhodes.("RhodesHouse."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_House,6/1/20).

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womanyouwerenotallowedintotheunionexceptyouhadamantotakeyoualong.26AndhetookmealongandIhadlunchtherewhichwasagreat,greatthinginthosedays.ButweenjoyedbeinginOxfordandbeingveryfreeandtalkingandhavingalltheseotherstudentswhoalsodidpostgraduateworkandwereallstrugglingtoprovethatyoucandoAfricanhistory.AftersometimeIcamehomeforfieldworkandthenwentbackagainandall that,sobytheendof it, wasgreat funandthePrincipalofmyCollegewasextremelyfondofme.Andshemadesurethat--IhadtoprovetothemtherewasAfricanhistory--andmadesureIgotagrantsothatIcouldgototheLondonPublicRecordsOfficetolookattherecords.27AndshearrangedagrantformefromtheCollegetodothat,andshealsomadeitimportantthatImetanumberofotherstudents--especiallyknownAfricansintheCollege.AndshewouldhavecocktailsandthatwaswhenIreallydecidedtodislikecocktails.RO:*laughs*BA: Because she would arrange cocktails and she would make sure that I attended thecocktail,andafterIhadtalkedtosomeoneforaboutfiveortenminutesshewouldtakemeaway,saying“look,you’vehadenoughdiscussionwiththatone,comeandmeetthisone,comeandmeetthisone.”Butitwasfun.RO: Yeah, thank you! So you’ve said a lot of things talking about your getting intohighschoolhere,andhow itwas like the firstgirl’s school,and then tocontinuingyourgraduateschool,youweren’tgoingtobeacceptedsomewhere,andyouhadtogo somewhere else. Would you say girls’ child education was late in coming, inNigeria?BA:Itwasabitlateincoming,butneverthelesssomeofthemissionarieslikeinmyschool,for instance--CMS Girl’s School--they had started a girl child education and they wereencouraginggirls tocometoschoolbut theywerethe firstgroupofpeople toencouragegirls’childeducationandIrememberafterthatsomeoftheotherpeopleinLagosleadbyLadyAbayomi,28LadyAdemola,29andsoon,wenttoprotesttothegovernmentthatthere

26TheOxfordUniversityStudentUnionisacampusbuildingthatrepresentsandservicesuniversitystudents.("OxfordUniversityStudentUnion."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University_Student_Union,6/1/20).27TheLondonPublicRecordOfficehousesthenationalarchivesforEngland,Wales,andthecentralUnitedKingdomgovernment.In2005theFreedomofInformationAct2000waspassedintheUnitedKingdom,whichgavethepublicgreateraccesstothenationalarchives.("PublicRecordOffice."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Record_Office,6/2/20).28IyaloyeOyinkansolaAbayomi(1897–1990)wasawell-knownfeministandnationalistfromLagos,Nigeria.LadyAbayomiheadedtheNigerianGirlGuidesmovementandfoundedtheNigerianWomen'sParty.("OyinkansolaAbayomi."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyinkansola_Abayomi,6/2/20).

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shouldbeschoolsforgirls;notonlythatbutthatgovernmentshouldberesponsibleforit,and therewasa lotof to-do. I can't remember the fulldetails,but Ihave the feeling thattheyalsohadtocontributemoneyforthat.Andofcourse,itwasnottoolongafterthatthattheMethodistsalsostartedagirl’sschool--theMethodistGirlsHighSchool--aftertheyhadstartedonefortheboys.30Soitwasabitlatecoming,butitcame.RO:So inyourreflectionsaboutyourwork, for instance,whatwouldyousayweresomecentralcommitmentstogetgoing?BA:Well,MyessentialcommitmentwasreallytoseethatonceIgotintoCambridgeatThePerse, that I goton there.And fortunately Ihad two teachers, twohistory teachers,wholikedmeandreallyencouragedmetogeton,andtheywouldaskmequestions,allsortsofinterestingquestions:whatdidIthinkabouttheQueen?31isitrightthattheQueenshouldbe the head of the commonwealth? and all sorts of interesting questions like that. ThePrincipaloftheschool,Ms.Scott,wasanxiousthatIshouldbeabletospeakgoodEnglish.SosheusedtoorganizelessonsformejusttomakesurethatIspokegoodEnglishandsoon.ThentheyencouragedmetotraveloutsideCambridge.Look, first of all, even to get acclimatized in Cambridge itself: cricket! I didn’t knowanythingaboutcricket,buttheytoldmethatthiswasoneofthegamesthattheyplayedinCambridgeandtheydecidedtotakemeforcricket--Ithinkalmosteveryweek.Oneoftheteacherswouldgowithme,andtheywouldtellmeallthemechanismsofplayingcricketonthe cricket field, and then theyalsoencouragedme todoa littlebit ofworkon classicalmusic,thatIshouldalsoknowsomethingaboutclassicalmusic.AndalsoaboutEuropeanart.AndoneofmylecturersactuallyorganizedthatIshouldgotoItaly,andseewhatwasgoingoninItalywithEuropeanartthatwasbeingdisplayedinItaly.Iwentthereandshealsomademewrite an essay on that. So therewas that sort of exposure right, left, andcenter, just tomake sure Iwasn’t just in Cambridge just for that purpose--that I had tolearnaboutotherpeopleaswell.

29OlooriKofoworolaAinaAdemolawasthefirstpresidentofNigeria’sNationalCouncilofWomenSocietiesaswellastheco-founderoftheGirlsSecondaryModernSchoolandNewEraGirls’SecondarySchool,bothinLagos.In1959,shebecameaMemberoftheOrderoftheBritishEmpireandwasalsorewardedmembershipintheOrderoftheFederalRepublicbyAbubakarTafawaBalewa’sgovernment.(“KofoworolaAdemola.”Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofoworola_Ademola,5/10/20).30TheMethodistGirls'HighSchoolinYaba,Lagoswasestablishedin1879bytheAfricanMembersoftheWesleyanMethodistMission.In1980,theLagosStateGovernmentgainedcontroloftheschool,butreturnedittotheMethodistChurchNigeriain2001.("BriefHistoryofMGHS."MethodistGirlsHighSchoolOnline.https://mghsyabalagosng.com/about-our-school/,6/7/20).31SheisreferringtoQueenElizabethII,theQueenoftheUnitedKingdomandtheCommonwealthstates.("ElizabethII."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II#cite_note-constitutional-3,6/2/20).

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RO:Soattheendoftheday,seeingyourworkandthosearoundyou,whatwouldyousayarelikethemostsignificantlifeachievementsprofessionallyforyou?BA:When?RO: Like now, professionally what would you say were some most significantachievements,nowthatyouareretiredandlookingback.BA:WellI’mgladthatIwasabletobeahistorianandbefirmaboutitandbeproudofthefactthatI’mahistorian.AndIcouldtalkaboutit,andalsothatIhadalotoffriendswhowere also historians,whowere classmates. Some of themwerewithme at St. Andrews,someofthemwereinOxfordwithme,andsomeofthemactuallycamebacktoNigeriawithmeandstartedteachinghere.IhadafriendJennyDobbin32whowas-webothreadhistoryinOxfordwereadhistoryinCambridge,andshewasextremelykeenonhistoryandwhenshegothere, shedecided togo tooneof thecollegeshere, in theUniversityof Ibadan,33whereshedidmoreandmorehistoryuntilsheeventually...Idon’tknowwhathappened,she eventually went back. But we became very friendly and also she got to know myrelations:mybrother,mymother, andmyother relations. Just as I alsogot toknowherrelations! Her father was a farmer and he was a huge man, and had a very generousappetite,andhewouldreallygiveusbigslicesofmeat.YouknowtheBritishdon’teattoomuchmeatbuthemadesurethathegaveusgoodslicesofmeatandallsorts,soIreallyenjoyedtheirpresence.RO:Okay,solet'smovetoyourworknow.Whatwouldyousaykindofdrewyoutothekindofworkyoubegantodoasyoustartedtoteach?BA:Ican’thearwhatyouaresayi-RO:*louder* Isaidwhatspecificallycanyousaydrewyoutothekindofworkyoustartedtodowhenyoubegantoteach?

32JennyKnauss(maidennameDobbin)attendedthePerseSchoolforGirlsbetween1945and1954.SheworkedfortheNigerianInstituteforSocialandEconomicResearchattheUniversityofIbadan,theHistoryDepartmentattheUniversityofGhanainAccra,andtheAfricanStudiesProgramatNorthwesternUniversity.ShewasalsoinvolvedintheformationoftheChicagoWomen'sLiberationUnion,co-directedtheUniversityofIllinoisMedicalSchoolUrbanPreceptorshipProgram,workedfortheSuburbanHealthSystemsAgencyinOakPark,andfoundedtheAlzheimer'sSpokenHeregroup."Knauss,Jenny."NorthwesternArchivalandManuscriptCollections.https://findingaids.library.northwestern.edu/agents/people/2237?&filter_fields[]=subjects&filter_values[]=Feminism,6/3/20).33TheUniversityofIbadan,foundedin1948inIbadan,Nigeria,wasoriginallyacollegewithintheUniversityofLondon.TheUniversityofIbadanisnowanindependentpublicresearchinstitution.("UniversityofIbadan."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Ibadan,6/3/20).

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BA:Well,whenIbegantoteachthereweredifferent….Ididn’tbegintoteachuntilIcameback to Nigeria, where I was in the Department of History. I must say, it was a toughassignment because even though I had done postgraduate work in History and so on, Ihadn't really done much work in African History per se. But I was in this department,DepartmentofHistoryhere,inIbadan.WhichwasoneoftheoldestdepartmentsofHistoryandyoujusthadtolearntobeabletoknowwhathistoryisallabout.And I remember--this is very interesting, --the head of the department at one point,AbdullahiSmith,wasanEnglishman,buthehaddonealotofAfricanhistoryandsoon.34Even when I was in Oxford he had shown interest in me coming to teach there. HesuggestedthatthebestthingformewouldbetodoalittlebitmoreAfricanHistorybeforestartingtoteach.Heusedtoteachthemostseniorstudentsinhistory,andhesuggestedtomeoraskedifI’dlikedIcouldcomeandsitatthebackofhisclasssothatIcouldpickupmore information, which was very nice of him. I started doing that, but of course thestudentsthoughtthatitwasbecausemyhistorywasinadequateandthatIwasn’treallyyetready for that. Iwasstaying inoneof thehallsof residenceand Iused towalk fromthehistorydepartmenttotheplace,andsomeofthestudentswouldcomeandwalkalongwithme. Not really because they were that chummy, but they just wanted to know howcompetentIwas.Theywouldaskmewhatareyoudoing?Youknow,tryingtofindoutifIreallyknewenoughhistoryordidn’tknowenoughhistory.Thatwasaninterestingperiod,but I also had a set of students, young students, who I was asked to teach at the verybeginningand I reallyenjoyed thatbecause theywereall students fromreally first classschools inNigeria.They cameand I decided that Iwas going to give themsomething—Iwouldliketomentorthem.Andwhenwe’dsittogetherI’dgivethemanessayandthey’dwriteitandthenI’daskthemtocomment.Andwewouldallspeaktoit,andtheyenjoyedthat,thatIwasableto,andIsaid“lookdon’tbeafraid,justsaywhatyoufeel.”Theyenjoyedthat.Imustsayanumberofthemdidwell.Infact,afewofthembecameprofessorslater.Ithink there’s even one right now here in Ibadan. He’s a professor, um not of History,Economics,buthestartedoffasaprofessorofhistorybuttheyallusedtosaythatIwasabit hardon them, and that Iwasnot generouswithmymarks and soon.Butwegotonextremelywell,webecameverygood friends.And theyallbecame--There’soneof them,

34AbdullahiSmith(1920–1984)wasaprofessorofhistorywhoworkedtodeveloptheAfricanHistorycurriculumattheUniversityofIbadan.In1955,hehelpedestablishtheHistoricalSocietyofNigeriaandservedastheSociety'sHonorarySecretary.HealsoestablishedtheZariaSchoolofHistoryatAhmaduBelloUniversityandtheCentreforDocumentationandHistoricalStudiesinKaduna,Nigeria.(Aondofa,ChilaAndrew."ProfAbdullahiSmith:TheScholarwhofoundedtheHistoryDeptatABUZaria."https://www.theabusites.com/prof-abdullahi-smith-the-renowned-scholar/#google_vignette,6/3/20).

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whoisalso inIfe35,he’saprofessorofhistory in Ife.Onewas inABU36andweallgotonverywell.RO:Soforinstance,wouldyousayyourworkisshapedbyyourlifeexperiences?BA:Well,yesinaway,yes.Myuh-RO:Andhow?BA:Well, as I told you earlier on the idea of evenwanting to do history, thatwas a lifeexperiencewhichshapedmywork.Butapartfromthat,Ihadtoshow--itbecameamissionformetoshowthatthere’ssomethinglikeAfricanhistory,andthatwegottotalkaboutit,we’vegottomakepeoplerealizethatthere’sAfricanhistoryandmakepeopleappreciateit,andofcoursewhenIstarteddoingmyownpostgraduatework,especiallyasIspecializedinthehistoryofIbadan,andthatwasaveryexcitingthingformebecauseIbadanhasbeenoneof the largest towns inNigeria. Itwasatownwhichwasabletobeadefencestationagainstothergroupsofpeople,likethoseinthenorth,whodefeatedpartoftheworldweusedtoknowastheOyoEmpire37;anddestroyedthem;andsomeofthepeoplecamedownsouthandsomeofthemsettledinIbadan.AndinfactwhentherewasanotherattempttodrivethemawayitwasIbadanpeopleatOsogbowhocametogetheranddroveawaythepeoplefromthenorthandthatwasatremendousthing.38I’vealwaysbeenveryproudofthefactthatIbadanissuchalargetown.Atownwhichhasachievedsomuchinsomanyways,andIthinksomeonewastalkingtome yesterdayorthedaybefore, it’soneofthelargesttownsaroundhere.Andoneisextremelyproudofit,thatonecouldliveinatownlikethis.Andthatthetowncoulddevelopasithasdeveloped.AnytimeIhavevisitorsItakethem toMapoHall39 andmake them go to the very top and see thewhole of the town.

35 ObafemiAwolowoUniversity(previouslytheUniversityofIfe)isagovernment-rununiversityinthesouthwesternYorubacityofIfe,Nigeria.Theuniversitywasestablishedin1961andrenamedin1987tohonortheNigeriannationalistChiefObafemiAwolowo("ObafemiAwolowoUniversity."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obafemi_Awolowo_University,6/3/20;"Ife."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If%E1%BA%B9,6/3/20;"ObafemiAwolowo."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obafemi_Awolowo,6/3/20). 36 Ahmadu Bello University (ABU) is a research university in Zaria, Kaduna State, Nigeria. The university was established in 1962 as the University of Northern Nigeria and was then named after Ahmadu Bello, the first premier of Northern Nigeria. ("History of Ahmadu Bello University." Ahmadu Bello University. https://www.abu.edu.ng/history/, 6/3/20). 37 TheOyoEmpireexistedinmodern-dayBeninandWesternNigeriainthemid-7thtolate18thcenturies.Itwasoneofthemostpowerfulempiresofitstimeduetoitscavalryandtraderelations.("OyoEmpire."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyo_Empire,6/7/20).38ThecityofOsogboisthecapitalofOsunStateinsouthwesternNigeria.("Osogbo."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osogbo,6/3/20).39 MapoHallisIbadan'sCityHall,locatedonMapoHill.("MapoHall."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapo_Hall,6/5/20).

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SometimesIgotoBower’sTower40whichisevenhigherup,toletpeopleseejusthowbigIbadan is.Thenwedrivearound,especially theoldpartof Ibadan. It’s impressive whenyoudrivearoundtheoldpart.IfyoucomedownfromMapoHolandyou’redoingdown,ontheright,you’llbeamazedaboutthesizeofthetown.Thehouses,thevillages,andsoon.You’ll just be amazed that there’s so much. Then on the left, you will see all kinds oftraditions and things. There’s a place when they make the asude; what do you call thepeoplewhomake theasude?41 thepeoplewhohelp to, theydoall sortsof thingswith…well I can’t remember,But theAsudesarevery important for Ibadans.Aswarriors, theyprovidedallofthewarimplements.There’saplaceasyougotowardsBower’sTower,onthe left,youseethisplacewheretheAsudesare.Theymakeall thewar implementsthatonecouldpossiblywant.RO: Wow that’s very interesting. So, you are called the doyen of feminism inNigeria.42 I’m just wondering how that relates with you standing your ground inregardtoAfricanhistoryaswellasbeingcalled“verynaughty”intermsofwhatyouwanted to do. What’s the connection between your work, and these previousobservationsaboutyou.BA:Well, it’s interestingthatyou’reaskingthatquestion,Forme,Ididn’treallythinktoomuchaboutit.Ireallydidn’tthinktoomuchaboutit.ButIknewthatallthatcamefrommybackground.Mymotherwasateacher,andshewasoneoftheveryfirstsetofteachersinthispartofthecountry.TheUnitedMissionaryCollege--shewasoneoftheveryfirstsettobeteachers there.43So Iwasalwaysproudof the fact that Ihadamotherwhowaswell-versedandshewasveryencouraging.Shemadesurethatwewenttotherightschoolsandsoon.Forinstance,shewastheonewhotookmetoseethisGirlsSchool.Irememberthevery first day I went, she tookme there to the boarding house andmymother was so

40 Bower'sTowerislocatedontopofOke-Are("TheArmyChief'sHill")inIbadan.Constructedin1836,thetowerisnamedafterCaptainRobertListerBower,aBritishcolonialofficerandthefirstBritishresidentofIbadan.("BowersMemorialTower."NigeriaGalleria.https://www.nigeriagalleria.com/Nigeria/States_Nigeria/Oyo/Bower-Memorial-Tower-Oke-Aare.html,6/5/20).41Yorubametalsmithsareoftenreferredtobytheirlineagenames."Asude"isthenameusedinIbadanandIlorin.(Oyewùmí,O.(2012).Beyondgendercentricmodels:RestoringmotherhoodtoYorubadiscoursesofartandaesthetics.InN.M.Creary(Ed.)Africanintellectualsanddecolonization(p.167).OhioUniversityPress.https://books.google.com/books?id=OINMpWx4eCEC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=asude+metal&source=bl&ots=1LT6n9veEn&sig=ACfU3U1ejo7zVkSaySZGAkQsyx-v6FHM3A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiK_f-OsevpAhWFVc0KHchBBX0Q6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false,6/5/20).42Theterm"doyen"referstotheeldest,mostskilled,ormostknowledgeablememberofagroupofpeople.("Doyen."Merriam-Webster.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doyen,6/5/20).43TheUnitedMissionaryComprehensiveCollege(UMCC),establishedin1995,isagirls'boardingschoolinIbadan.UMCCistheproductoftheconsolidationoftheUnitedMissionaryChurchandtheGradeTwoTeacherCollege.("ShortHistoryAboutUMCC."UnitedMissionaryComprehensiveCollege.https://umcc.org.ng/about-us/,6/5/20).

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anxiousshehelpedmetomakemybedandpeoplewerelookingatmelikethisgirlmustbealittlebitspoiled.So,whentheholidayswerecoming,Iknewshewouldalsotrytocome.SoItoldmyPrincipal,pleasecanyousendatelegramtomymothertotheeffect:“mothernotneededIcancope”.WhenMs.Webb--shewasanEnglishwoman--sawit shelaughedand said “mother not needed, I can cope” and sent it like that tomymother. Thatmymotherdidnothave tocometoLagos, that Icancope, Icanget fromLagos to Ibadan. Itwasn’t difficult because therewere other people going to Ibadan andwere going to therailwaystationatIddo,andtherewerealotofschoolchildrenandwehadwonderfultimestogether.44 And some of us as we grew then we were having boyfriends, some of theboyfriendswouldoffertotakeyourluggageforyou.Andtobenaughty,justtotrythemout,you’dmakesurethattheluggageissoheavysothattheystartregrettingofferingtotakeyour luggage for you, but there’s nothing they could do because you can’t--at that pointtheycan’tsaytheycan’ttakeitbecauseitmeansthattheyareweak!SowewouldgototheIddoRailwayStationandfromthereIwouldgotoIbadan.RO:So,talkingaboutyourwork:howwouldyoukindofcaptureyourengagementinfeministacademicworkandactivisminNigeria?BA:Well,it’samazinghowone,it’salmostasifonedriftedintoit.ForoneIwasluckythatIwent to those colleges.Especially theOxfordones; there’snodoubt it: theywere femalecolleges,andtheymadesurethatyoudidwell.AndofcoursebeingtaughtbyMs.Perhamwasanotherplus.SothatrighttherefromtheverybeginningIknewthatIwasgoingtotryandbesomethinglikeafeminist.AndofcourseatthefirstschoolforgirlsinCambridge,thetwo teacherswho taughtmewerealsoverymuch feminists.Theywanted toknow, theywanted to encourage me in that field. When one went to St. Andrews, there was nodiscrimination; the two professors, although they were from Oxford, they were verygenerousandveryliberalandweusedtochatwiththemandsoonandsoforth.AndasItoldyou,theyalsoencouragedmetogotoOxford,thatthere’snopointinstayingonatSt.Andrews if I wanted to do postgraduate work in the field in which I wanted to dopostgraduatework.AndofcourseonceonegottoOxfordit’saverydifferentstory,becauseapart from—as I told you—the Rhodes House Library—so it’s amixed library; all of usweretheretogether.Andwewereallcompeting.AndthenwehadtheSocialAnthropologyschool there. And we also—many African students who had been taught socialanthropology: thatalsohelpedus.AndtherewasanotherCollegenearbywhereweweretaughtAfricanhistory.ButwhatIthoughtwasimportantwasthefactthatonewasabletoassertthatlearningisnotjustaboutmen;it’saboutmenandwomen,andwealsocandoaswellasthemen.Andthatthereshouldbenoreasonwhyweshouldbeafraidofprojecting

44IddoIsland,adistrictofLagos,housestheLagosTerminus.("IddoIsland."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddo_Island,6/5/20).

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oneselfandspeakingoutattherighttime.AndallthetimeIwasatSt.Andrews,fortunatelyIhadprofessorswhoencouragedyoutospeakout.TheywouldcallyousometimesandsayMs.Fajimbola,youaretheonetogivethevoteofthanks,orIwantyoutocommentonxandy.Sothatbythenyougotconfidentthatthere’snobigdealaboutbeingawomanorbeing a man. And as I said when I was thinking of doing postgraduate work, my twoprofessors said—Iwasgoing toa teacher’s college inCambridgeand they said,Absolutenonsense!Youaregoingtoapostgraduatecollege,andbothofthemwrotereferencesforme.RO:SowhatIhearyousayingisthatwhengiventheopportunity,womencandoit.BA:Ohyes!Whynot?!RO: Okay, because it’s coming out very clearly from your responses. So I’mwonderingwhatyourfocushasbeenintermsofyourengagementsasahistorian.BA:Well,asIsaid,asahistorianIwasveryinterestedinthehistorynotonlyofIbadanbutthehistoryofwomenandIhavewrittenafewthingsabout…butapartfromthat,oneofmyfavoritewomen is IyalodeEfunsetan.45 Shewasa fierce, toughwoman.The ‘iyalode’wasthe leaderof thewomen.46Andshewasextremelyhard-working,verywealthy,andveryfierce.Andthemendidn’treallylikehertoomuch.Butshedidn’tseemtomindunduly,andwhenitlookedasiftheyweretryingtounderminehershestoodup—theheadofthetown,AareLatosa—hewastheheadofIbadan—hewasaverypowerfulsoldier,verywellknown.Buthewantedeverything tobedonehisownway. ButEfunsetan felt itwasgetting toomuch, that therewas toomuchwarfare, that theyshouldstep itdowna littlebit.Butherefused.Sotherewasatime—shewasverywealthy,andshewouldlendthemsoldierstogotowar.Andthesoldierswouldcomebackwithbootsandallthat,butaftersometime,whenshefelttheywerenotlistening,sherefusedtoallowthemtotakehersoldierstowar.Andofcoursetherewasrealtroubleafterthat.Shewasattacked,shewascalledallsortsofnames,andtherewasatimewhenitwasallegedthatshewastheonecausingalotofthetroubleinIbadan.Andtheytriedtopushheraway,andtheysaidthat—shedidn’thaveachild—and they said that because she didn’t have a child shewas always a nicewomanparticularlytoherfemaleservants.Anditwasallegedthatoneofthemdied,andthatsheherself had a hand in it, which I don’t think she did. So they attacked her and virtuallymobbedherhouse, andvirtuallydestroyedherhouse. IyalodeEfunsetan, fora long time

45ChiefẸfúnṣetánAníwúràwasIbadan'ssecondIyalodefrom1867to1874.SheisknownasoneofthemostpowerfulandaffluentYorubawomentodate.("EfunsetanAniwura."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efunsetan_Aniwura,6/5/20).46"Iyalode"isatitleforprominentfemaleYorubachieftains.("Iyalode(title)."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyalode_(title),6/5/20).

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stoodher ground.Herhouse in Ibadan still exists, if yougo toMaponow, verynear theOlubadan’s present house, and alsonear themosque and theplacewhere the chiefwhoinstallsthepeoplegivethemthetraditionalthingtomakethemchiefs—thehousewherethatchieflivesisnextdoortoEfunsetan’shouse.47AndEfunsetanstillhasabiggardenanda place where her people live and she’s still very well-known. But she was always myfavorite because of the way she stood up. Aare Latosa really wanted to finish her, butregardlessofthefactthathewantedtofinishher,shestillstoodup,shestoodherground,shemaintainedherreputationwithinthetownofIbadan.Evenuptilltoday.RO:Yousaidyoualmoststumbledintofeministwork.Butwhatdoyouunderstandbyfeminism?BA:Well, that’s a tough one. I almost also stumbled into it. I knew it was important toemphasize the fact that women also had a contribution to our history. I think this isextremelyimportant.AndIthinkthisreallyhitmehardwhenwewentfortheconferencein—thereweretwoconferences.Therewasabigoneandthentherewasasmallone.AndIwentwith theMacArthurFoundation.48And itwas there thatonegot toknowabout theimportanceoffeminism,andthatwomenalsohavetostandupforthemselves.Wejusthadtostandupforourselves.Andtherewasthiswoman—Ithinkfrom—shecamefromoneoftheseislands,Iremembermyhusbandwentthere;therearetwophotographsinoursittingroomthathebroughtback.Butthewomen—hegotveryimpressedbythewomenthere.AndofcourseImustsay:whenIwenttoCubaandIsawthatinCubaitistruethatthereweremanymoremenbut itdidn’tpreventthewomenfromcomingupontheirowntooandspeakingforthemselves.AndIrememberthey invitedmeto—NIPS—Idon’tknowifyou’veheardofNIPS.It’sagroup,selectedbythegovernment,civilservantsandsoon—andtheygoaroundthewholecountry,notonlyinthecountrybutallovertheworld.AndIgotfriendlywiththeCubanAmbassadorhereandheencouragedme—youcangotoCuba,theyspeakEnglish,andsoIfoundmywaythere.AndthenIfoundthisgroupofNigeriansandwestartedtalkingtogetherand in theendtheysaidwhydon’tyou joinusbecauseIwas alone. And the government was very generous with them, they treated them veryliberally.Iwasjustapoorrelation.ButtheyinvitedmetojointhemandIjoinedthemandwestartedtalkingaboutCuba,whatonecouldachieveinCuba,andfoundthatinfactCubawas a very important place. Though not as important as people thought because thePresident of Cuba then had just come on, and whoever was there was not as strong. IrememberIwasgoingtogobacktotheUS,andIhadtogothroughHaiti,andIstoppedin

47"Olubadan"(Yorubafor"LordofIbadan")isthetitlegiventothekingofIbadan.("Olubadan."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olubadan,6/5/20).48TheJohnD.andCatherineT.MacArthurFoundation,foundedin1970,createsgrantsandimpactinvestmentstoassistnon-profitorganizations.("MacArthurFoundation."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacArthur_Foundation,6/5/20).

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HaitiandthatwaswhereIboughtthis.Itwasdifficult.Firstofalltheywerenottookeenthat I, a woman, should be doing all this traveling by herself. And I said look, it’s mybusinessandI’mhere.SoIwentthroughHaitiandwentontotheUSandIfelttherewasnobigdealtravelinganywhere.IcanmovetoanyplacethatIwantedto.Andtheuniversitieswereopen,andtheywerefriendly.RO:Youdidsaythatyourhusbandwasimpressedthatthewomenhadthefreedomtorelateanddowhattheywantedtodo.Justthinkingaboutthat:beingmarriedtohim.ThistalkaboutAfricanfeminism.What’syourtakeonAfricanfeminism?BA:Well, fortunately,myhusbandwasasopenasIwas.HewenttoGovernmentCollege,whichisoneoftheoldestcollegeshere,whereasIwasatSt.Anne’s.49ThoseofusfromSt.Anne’shadnofearofanyman,oranymalestudent,oranything.Weusedtohavedebateswith them, interviews with them, and we would sometimes even floor them. And thenwhen I got to St. Andrews I met a number of his schoolmates, like Victor OmololuOlunloyo,50 and late Professor Oladapo,51 and we were all there, all in the universitytogether. Theywere fromGovernment College and Iwas fromCMSGirls School, butwerelatedwithout—therewasnofeelingthatonewas—thathe’samanandI’mawomanandall that. And I remember Professor Oladapo was the one who introduced me to myhusband,andhe—Oladapowasaverygoodfriendofmine.HewasinSt.AndrewsandhewasgoingbacktoSt.Andrews;hestillhadayearmore.SoIsaidletmeseeyouoffattherailwaystationatKing’sCross.52SoIwenttoseehimandloandbeholdmyhusbandwasalsotheretoseehimoff.Soheintroducedusandthatwashowitstarted,andmyhusbandhadacar—asmallcar,calledAnike?Whichhesaidheboughtfromhissupervisorfor25pounds.Andhegavemealift,inAnike,tothehostelwhereIwasstayingandfromthereheusedtocomeandseeusandbefriendswithus,andthatwashowitstarted.AndhewasatCambridge; IwasatOxford; andweused tomeet inLondon.And theyweremore livelythantherestofus.RO: That’s very interesting, especially because these days there is a lot of stigmaaboutmatchmaking.Wouldyousaythatwasmatchmaking?

49GovernmentCollegeIbadan,establishedin1929,isanall-malesecondaryschool.("GovernmentCollege,Ibadan."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_College,_Ibadan,6/5/20).50VictorOmololuOlunloyoisamathematicianandprominentmemberofthePeople'sDemocraticPartyinNigeria.HebrieflyservedasgovernorofOyoStatepriortoMuhammaduBuhari'smilitarycoup.("VictorOmololuOlunloyo."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Omololu_Olunloyo,6/5/20).51IfedayoOladapo(1932–2010)wasascholarandCivilEngineeringprofessorattheUniversityofLagos.HegraduatedfromtheUniversityofSt.Andrewsin1959.("IfedayoOladapo."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifedayo_Oladapo,6/5/20).52King'sCrosspassengerrailwaystationislocatedinCentralLondon,UnitedKingdom.("LondonKing'sCrossrailwaystation."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_King%27s_Cross_railway_station,6/5/20).

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BA:No.Idon’tthinkitwas.RO:Isthereanythingbadaboutafriendintroducingyoutoyourspouse?BA: I don’t think it was matchmaking, but it may be that Oladapo was trying to be amatchmaker.[textdeletedperinterviewee’srequest]IjustfeltthatOladapowasmyfriendandthereforedecidedtogoseehimoff, just for fun.Especiallyaswewereboth fromSt.Andrews.ButIdon’tthink—I’mnotsureheknewmuchmoreaboutitthereafter.RO:Next,hesawtherelationshiphad…?BA:Well,wekeptonmeetinginLondon.PeoplewouldhavepartiesinLondonandthisandthatandwekeptonmeetingthere.Andthereaftertherewasatimewhenmyhusbandsaidhehadafewfriends,thatImustmeetthem,andtheyareallinLondon.SoIwenttomeetthem.Andwell,OladapowasoneofthemandWoleSoyinkawasoneofthem.53Therewereafewofthemheintroducedmeto.Akinkugbesaidifyouaregoingtobeanythingtome,thesearemyfriends.54AndIwenttomeetthem,wechatted,andthatwasit.RO:Itlookslikeyouhadalotmoremalefriendsthere,thanevenfemalefriends.BA:Well I had a lot of female friends too! Imean somebody like Professor Olorin,Mrs.Sanu.Theywereverygoodfriends—andtherewerequiteanumberofotherfriends.Ican’tremembertheirnamesnow.RO: How do you perceive the relationship between feminist scholarship andactivism?BA:AsfarasIamconcernedIthinktheyshouldgotogether.Andthat…Ididn’tseeanybigdeal in female scholarship and activism at all. I think that if you have the ability, use itwhereveryoucanuseit,andthatwell,Idon’tknow.RO:HowwouldyoudefineAfricanfeminism?WhatisAfricanfeminism?BA:Well, a few people have beenmaking somuch about African feminism. It’s a toughthing—onething.Like,fromtheverybeginning,onecouldevenseethatourwomenhadintheirownwaybeenfeminist.Theyhadtheirownviews.Theyknewtheirmind.Theyknew

53WoleSoyinkaisaYorubawriter,professor,andactivist.HereceivedtheNobelPrizeinLiteraturein1986.("WoleSoyinka."Wikipedia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wole_Soyinka,6/5/20).

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howtoexpressthemselves.Theywerenotpreparedtobepushedasidebyanyone.Andsowe’vealways feltwecanalsodo it.Thatwhateveranymancandoawoman too—if shetrieshardenough—candoit.There’snobigdealaboutit.RO: What would you say is the intersection between your work and with thewomen’smovementglobally?BA: Well, I don’t know about globally but I know that we were interested in women’sresearchanddocumentationcenter,andthatwasoneoftheareasinwhichIhadapush--Iwas interested inandone felt – andwehadcontactswithpeoplenotonly inNigeriaorevenAfrica,butoutside—peoplewecantalkto,wecandiscusswith.Andwhoalsofeelthatwehavesomethingtooffer.Sothat’sRO:Sohowwouldyoudescribetheprogressionofwomenmovementsinthepast2-3-4decadesinNigeria,forinstance?BA:Well, there’sbeena lotofprogress; therecertainlyhasbeena lotofprogress.That’swhy, for instance, we encourage all sorts of projects/programs like what WORDOCundertakes, and other institutions like that, not only WORDOC but other institutionsundertakeprogramswhichshowthatwe feel that—there’sstilla lotofworktobedone.Andpeopleshouldstillbeencouragedtointeractwithotherpeople,notonlywithinNigeriaor Africa, but outside to find out what exactly, what is happening and whether we aremakinganyprogressorwearestandingstill,andwhatwecando.Andthatwaspartoftheinterest of WORDOC to start with. When we started we got interested in a number ofinstitutionsoutsideAfrica,forinstanceinCanada.Whatisthenameofthe…CIDA?55Theyencouragedus,theymadesurewegottherightbooks,andencouragedusalsoto—someofourpeoplewentabroadtoCanadatoseewhatthey’redoingthere,andwealsoencouragedthemtoseewhatwe’redoinghere.RO: I promise thiswill bemy very last question: Can you giveme a sense of yourvisionfortheWomen’sResearchandDocumentationCenter?Andwhatdoyouthinkthatglobalclimatechangehastodowithfeminism,forinstance.BA:Theglobalclimatechangeand?

55TheCanadianInternationalDevelopmentAgency(CIDA)wasafederalagencyformedin1968.CIDAranthemajorityofCanada'sprogramsforsustainabledevelopmentandpovertyreductionindevelopingcountries.CIDAhassincebeenincorporatedintotheGlobalAffairsCanadadepartment.(Meehan,SusanTaylor."CanadianInternationalDevelopmentAgency."TheCanadianEncyclopedia.https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/canadian-international-development-agency,6/6/20).

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RO:andfeministmovement.BA:Well,that’satoughone.Ithoughttheglobalclimatechangeisaseriousmatter,anditgoes beyond feminism. It touches almost all of us in the world. And I’m not sure thatwomenhaveaparticularstandthattheyaretakingoverit,exceptthat—Isupposethatifpeople are alreadybeginning to thinkabout the climate, and the effect of the climateonpeople,whether theclimateaffectsonly thewomenorwhether itaffectseverybody,andhowwerespondtothatclimatechange.OntheotherhandIthinkyou’rerightinthesensethat there are certain aspects of the climatewhich affects thewomen--And perhapsweshould start thinking in termsof it, but at themoment itdoesn’t lookas ifwearedoingmuchinthatrespect.RO:Thankyouverymuchforparticipatinginthisinterview.Weareverygrateful;weappreciate you and this interview has taken place on this last day of October 31,2019.Iwishyouallthebest,Iwishyouwell,andIappreciateyou.BA:IwishyoutheverybestandIthankyouforinvitingmetobepartofyourprojectandprogram.I’msureitwillbequiteinterestingandIhopeyouwillletWORDOCknowwhatyourfindingsareultimatelyandalsoinwhatwaywecanparticipateinthedevelopment.RO:Thankyou.