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Coach Mentor Podcast Transcript – Episode 19: Bill Lindberg – Legal Issues in Coaching Page 1 of 17
Transcript
LEGAL ISSUES IN COACHING
Podcast Interview by Robert Holmes with Bill Lindberg
Male Voice: This is the Coach Mentor Podcast proudly brought to you by Frazer Holmes and
Associates making the most of your greatest asset. This podcast covers a wide range of
topics related to the coaching industry. Interviews with industry leaders, coaching
experts and exploring areas of expertise closely related to the coaching industry. Here's
your host Robert Holmes.
RH: Hi and welcome to the Coach Mentor Podcast. In today’s episode we’ll be looking at the
issue of Legal Issues in Coaching with William Lindberg, President of The Ash Grove
Group in Minnesota.
Bill is the contributing author to Law and Ethics in Coaching which is put up by Patrick
Williams and Sharon Anderson. He’s written and spoken extensively for the National
Association of Law Placement and the American Association of Law Libraries as well as
other associations. Alongside that though, Bill is also a practicing coach, working with
executives for the Marshall Goldsmith Partners and The Goodstone Group in North
America.
Bill received his JD from the University of Minnesota and he’s a member of the bar
there. He received his certification as a professional coach graduating from the Hudson
Institute in Santa Barbara where he remains on faculty. He now holds his MCC with the
ICF and Bill has served as the Executive Director of the Association of Coach Training
Organizations.
He’s also past president of Rotary in Montecito, California and spent two years as a
Board Member with the Wilderness Inquiry which is something I hope we get into in
our discussion.
Bill’s been described as five parts brilliant, five parts storyteller and ten parts
humanitarian and that description should tell you a lot about his placement between
the worlds of law and coaching.
So now for the interview.
Hi Bill.
Coach Mentor Podcast Transcript – Episode 19: Bill Lindberg – Legal Issues in Coaching Page 2 of 17
BL: Hello Robert.
RH: How are you doing today?
BL: I’m doing well. It’s Minnesota and winter so it’s chilly but I’m doing well.
RH: It’s great to talk with you today. You came highly recommended from Margaret
Kringbaum who had a lot to do with setting up the professional standards at the ICF so I
appreciate her passing on the detail. Before we get into the core of our discussion I
think we probably let the listeners know about the legal implications of our discussion.
BL: That’s a good thing to do, I think, Robert. We’re going to be covering general issues that
impinge upon coaches and their work. As a good lawyer would do in a situation such as
this, there are several disclaimers to clarify. We’re not creating any attorney-client
relationship during our call today. This is just a general discussion of themes and issues
that might arise in a coaches practice and their work. Whether that be you as individuals
or organizations.
And because your podcast is a global podcast, it’s very important to remind listeners
that every jurisdiction has its own nuances and specifics. So many of, I’ll reiterate this
during our podcast today, that many of the areas and issues that we’ll be considering it’s
wise for the prudent coach to seek legal guidance in that jurisdiction from a lawyer or
other professional that’s knowledgeable in the specific area of law. That can range from
liability issues or insurance, copyright and other intellectual property issues, and so on.
So there’ll probably be a few of those comments that we refer to during our
conversation today. It’s just a good thing to remember, especially in a global setting,
there is common law, civil law and many details that may have significant repercussions
depending on the specific jurisdiction.
RH: Right. So my hope for the listeners today would be that they at least begin to see what
the universe of legal implications are and they begin to think about their coaching within
that setting. Hopefully ask themselves questions that they may not have asked before.
Of course, you’re going to need to go get local help if you think something turns up
today that impinges on your practice.
BL: Exactly.
RH: Brilliant! Why don’t we start at the start. A large part of your early career was in law. It
was with the West Group, both West Publishing and Thompson West, before they
joined Reuters. Tell us about that?
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BL: Well, it was very interesting. I had gone, immediately after I finished my law studies, I
had gone on an AIESEC Internship to Copenhagen. I worked for a savings bank that was
350 years old and I had always thought I would be a trial lawyer and I did that. I was at
West Publishing, which is a large premier legal publisher in the United States for a
couple of years.
But I wanted to practice law, so I did, and went from a large corporate setting to
entrepreneurial lawyer setting by hanging up my shingle and doing the general practice
of law which at that time you could do. This was in the 70s.
But I discovered that the time I had spent in the Danish savings bank as an intern, there
were many elements of that that I liked. So I had an opportunity, after practicing law for
some time, to return to West Publishing. That was initially on the print side dealing with
faculties of law and authors at universities throughout the US primarily.
Then during my time there, things shifted to the electronic side and I begin work on the
West Law side. There were a lot of issues. It was a situation where business met law and
also the academic world because many of our authors were law professors and so on. I
had an opportunity to travel and meet many very brilliant legal minds in the US and
occasionally other countries. I had a trip to Shanghai on a Lu’s Foundation venture one
time and also to Europe visiting with other publishers in that setting.
So in all I was there for about 20 years. Then when the transaction happened with
Thompson, it was time for members of the old team to pursue other interests. I
discovered how that goes in a merger and acquisition setting. I did some consulting for
Thompson on the way out for a time.
That was when, 15 years ago basically, that I began my enterprise, The Ash Grove
Group. We just celebrated our 15th anniversary of becoming incorporated.
RH: Fantastic! On the way out from Reuters, how did you grab the overhead branches of
coaching?
BL: Well, it was very interesting.
Initially, I thought I was going to be doing fundraising work. I did do advancement work
for a small non-profit association in Minnesota called Wilderness Inquiry.
I later learned, as I became familiar with the Hudson model and the Cycle of Renewal
and so on, how disorienting it can be when so much of one’s identity is connected to a
long term employment situation. I was known as Bill Lindberg, the man from West, as I
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would go around to many universities and so on with my kind of relationship marketing
role and educational role. I had, of course, thrown myself into that role for many years.
It was very destabilizing to leave such a steady role. Coaching in the mid-90s was still
early on in its development and evolution so it was quite a shift.
I had this brief stint with this non-profit. Taking folks on outdoor adventure trips
regardless of their ability or disability or age and so on. That was an interesting venture
but I discovered, when I do fundraising for my local Rotary Club, I can sell a lot of raffle
tickets but I can do that better as an avocation rather than a vocation.
So it was clear to me that as I learned more about coaching, and went to a seminar in
Santa Barbara about Life Launch and learned more about this, that this sort of fit with
my management style in the corporate setting. And having been a university dormitory
counselor during my studies, this all sort of coalesced and came together. So in a burst
of enthusiasm, 15 years ago I started the Ash Grove Group.
RH: Wonderful! Was there any particular leading lights that you turned to, ran into, any
conferences that got you started?
BL: Well, there were several and I felt very fortunate to have some really excellent mentors
along this way.
A colleague of mine, a senior and well-known coaching colleague in Minnesota, Richard
Leider, who has written The Power of Purpose and about eight other books in this
domain about purpose and so on, was somebody I turned to initially. He was the one
who steered me to the Hudson Institute of Coaching in Santa Barbara. Then there were
others such as Richard Strozzi-Heckler who’s well-known in the domain of somatic
coaching.
As a lawyer, one does their due diligence, I was at that time – again that was the mid
90s – much like Gertrude Stein, I wanted to inquire whether there was a there there
because when you’re coming from a world of law and bar association conferences and
so on where there aren’t so many people or at least there weren’t in those days,
meeting in circles and sharing the way coaches share that was quite a leap but it was
one that I intuitively felt drawn to.
I suppose, for listeners on this podcast, it would be a fair disclosure to say I’m probably
more of a right-brain lawyer than many transactional, analytical lawyers who just in
rough terms are much more on the left brain side of their work.
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RH: Yeah, I love that distinction. That’s something I’m fairly sure people will recognize that
creative side relationships.
BL: Right. That I think was something that drew me and attracted me to coaching because
as I was out of my corporate role, I think I was able to find more of my essence in this
work. I enjoyed the advising part of law. I had, during my brief time in practice, I had
about 10 jury trials, so I certainly had experience on the litigation side and there was a
part of me that was fed by that, but I think in the longer term I am very fortunate to
have found coaching at the time when it was emerging as a profession.
RH: Absolutely. You’ve stuck at that ever since. I’m guessing you’ve spent then 15 years
powering on in there. So incidentally, how did you get into the academic world? How
did you get over on faculty?
BL: Well, it was somewhat fortuitous I guess. I had finished up the program and the
program was sort of taking off. They needed help and they felt that I could fill a gap
there. So that’s how it worked.
RH: What areas are you teaching on?
BL: Well, among others, just sort of the general coach certification process and things that
many of your listeners have experienced. Offering feedback tied to competencies of
coaching. It’s covering the waterfront in an 8-month program using probably about 20
texts and highlighting some of the contents there both at skill level and the
knowledgebase basically of coaching. As there is more and more research, much of that
research coming from Australia, over the years, certainly the knowledgebase in the field
of coaching has been expanding.
RH: Does the legal world keep knocking at the side door?
BL: Well, in the sense that I worked with many lawyers and law-related organizations over
the years, just during the intervening time I moved from the Middle West in America
out to California for eight years. That was very interesting shifting locations for my
practice. My clients weren’t necessarily simply local and I have had a very close
relationship both with the Hudson Institute and Fielding Graduate University over time.
Those clients and educational experiences were both on a national and international
level rather than simply local. This work, as your listeners know, provides you sufficient
independence and flexibility that you can operate pretty nimbly.
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RH: Beautiful! Why don’t we turn to, I guess the core of the discussion is to talk about legal
issues in coaching, one of the things I want to start with is the distinction perhaps
between ethics and legal issues?
BL: Legal or regulations, rules, whether it’s a statutory rule or a regulation derived from
that, has the force of law. There’s probably a continuum, I suppose, between morality,
ethics, law, and conscience – a lot of these domains which is very interesting. I think
this is something that the coaching field has wrestled with along the way.
Periodically there had been calls for a regulation on the profession much like, I’d say, a
mental health discipline and so on. That has an attendant set of infrastructure that goes
with it typically such as licensure, professional boards and perhaps examinations along
the way to enter the field.
For example, those that are therapists – having a mental health regulatory scheme –
have a situation in which their license can be withdrawn thus far at least.
I’m most familiar with the International Coach Federation and its structure because I
served on the internal review board which is kind of the appellate body of ethics
complaints and so on over the years. I had a three year term in that mode and I know
the European folks and others have disciplinary procedures. At least, in so far as I know,
the most severe sanction is – in the ICF for example, you could lose your credential or
you could be expelled from the organization by an ethical breach of the ICF code of
ethics for example.
A legal situation or an example of the force of law would be, for say a doctor or a lawyer
or some other field, you can lose your license, be disbarred and prohibited from
practicing law and there are other disciplinary measures short of that.
I suppose that’s just the difference in some respects, is that law attempts to, in some
cases codify or regulate ethical norms that are often the hallmark of an established
profession.
RH: Right. So at the moment the coaching profession is governed by adherence to ethical
principles rather than codifying that and having a set of regulations around it?
BL: Right. There are attempts, for example, the ICF Code of Ethics, which is really a set of
guidelines more than an exhaustive code.
Perhaps an example here just to show the difference would be if you have a well-
established or long established profession. For example, the practice of law in the
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United States has model rules of professional conduct. Each of those rules has extensive
regulations and annotations to clarify in great detail what those regulations mean. In
coaching, you have approximately 28 principles. Again, depending on which code you’re
looking at whether it’s the European code or other organizational codes, this is at a level
of generalization. Of course lawyers’ definitions are very important. Parsing of statutory
construction is very important. But you don’t have the breath and depth of guidance
that more established, more long established, fields have.
This is certainly then evolving the code of ethics. During my time as a coach, it has
undergone three major revisions. At least between the code of ethics and the set of
competencies, there’s guidance expressed in that code of ethics. But it’s slightly
different than a statutory regulation, for example, where there might be a disciplinary
board that again can provide sanctions so severe including loss of one’s license.
So for the moment, at least in the world of coaching that I’m familiar with, there isn’t
that licensure provision. There are guidelines and there are codes to guide a coach and
the coach-client relationship.
RH: From my point of view, my opinion there is that’s great. We should leave it that way
because, at least here in Australia, heavily regulated industries like psychology become
just really bogged down underneath red tape. A third of the person’s time is spent with
compliance issues rather than getting on with the job.
BL: Absolutely. I think that’s been one of the fundamental distinctions between the
flexibility of coaching. You have a continuum, of course.
Anyone that begins their studies in this field understands how at one end of a
continuum you have business consulting and so on. Then you have mentoring, coaching
and therapy. Again the distinctions are often blurred but the distinction at least
between mental health professionals viewing therapists in that mode. Oftentimes a
client comes to that professional because there’s some pathology involved. Whereas in
coaching, most coaching programs that I’m familiar with, the CIT for example describes
a client as creative, resourceful and whole.
Virtually every coach is approaching their client in the Carl Rogers unconditional positive
regard way that we relate to clients. That that person is fundamentally healthy or is
probably not a good candidate for coaching but rather to some other modality.
RH: I agree. Do you know of any cases in which coaches have been sued by clients?
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BL: I’m not familiar at the appellate level and I don’t have the access to West Law or
LexisNexis that I once did. But if that were the case, I think word travels pretty fast
among associations. I’m really not familiar with that. My hunch is that if there has been
some kind of breach and we can get into professional liability insurance and I think we’ll
plan to do that.
There are more informal ways of resolving disputes that coaches are involved in.
Certainly the complaint process and the ethics committee of professional coaching
organizations provide an opportunity to mediate those differences. More and more
coaches are involved in higher stakes situations of Executive Coaching that’s been going
on for a long time. In my view it’d be who’s somebody with assets to protect, to have
professional liability insurance, for example.
My suspicion is if there are grievances and those grievances have then been filed that
they’d been resolved short of at least appellate litigation and that takes awhile to work
its way through a system. At the moment if there have been disputes, and I know there
have certainly in ethics committees and so on, often those are probably resolved
informally through either mediation or arbitration. That’s my sense.
RH: Certainly that was the same response that I received from the ICF in Australasia. They
knew of no law cases that have been resolved within the legal system. They knew of the
number that have been resolved out of court.
BL: Right.
RH: Just a quick definition, you’ve used the word there appellate level or appellate
litigation? What does that mean?
BL: Well, in law, and I think this is true in most jurisdictions, whether its common law
country or civil law country, if there’s a dispute that goes to a court or a tribunal for
resolution you would have the trial court where the parties would both go. Then an
adversary system at least present their case and then a judge typically would decide that
case. If the losing party is disappointed with that matter they can appeal the matter to a
higher court. Then those are the decisions that are typically reported by legal publishers.
Now with services such as LexisNexis or West Law or Bloomberg’s Legal Service, with
computer precision and accuracy you can search in a keyword search context for those
precedents which are important in an Anglo-American legal system such as Australia.
That’s why it’s the appellate court – the appeals from these disputes at the trial court
level – which form the basis of precedents and guide judges in interpreting the law.
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RH: I’m wondering what the main circumstances would be under which someone may get
sued because an appellate level litigation suit will take place at some point? Can we
theorize about where that might happen? You’ve mentioned big business and CEOs.
That’s obviously a beginning.
BL: Well, if a coach is involved I would say with any client, again in a high stakes situation.
Just as an example, if confidentiality was breached. I could imagine a situation in a
securities context for example. If a company was making a public offering of stock
issuance and so on and a coach inadvertently or just oblivious to the codes of ethics
disclosed something that ought not to have been disclosed or inaccurately. Or there was
a conflict if there was some merger and acquisition about to happen and somehow
confidentiality was breached. I could imagine if that could be traced to a particular
individual that was in a coaching setting, it would be an actionable matter.
These are human interactions, I can imagine if a client were depressed or something and
perhaps in need of therapeutic intervention rather than coaching. And in a very serious
matter, if somebody committed suicide and this was a client of a coach and there was
no indication of that. I could imagine a family being very upset if the coach didn’t spot
warning signs, if there were warning signs.
RH: It’s really good to raise those scenarios. Those are clear and present issues. Hanging out
with coaches one gets the feeling of invulnerability, you know. We’re coaches. We’re
not experts. We’re not telling people what to do. They’re coming up with their own
solutions.
BL: Right. At least in the United States and I think many other countries as well, there are an
awful lot of lawyers around. Sometimes frivolous matters get taken up. I could imagine a
situation where, just this goes back to the regulation front, if a son or daughter or
spouse of a legislator had a coaching experience that went in a very bad way. This could
cause any number of repercussions such as cries for regulation and so on. Thinking the
consumers and the public weren’t protected and need protection for example.
RH: Wasn’t there are an example of that in Colorado? A regulatory push?
BL: I think that was part of what happened. That is where, and I am not sure of the
particulars or what triggered it, but it went to legislative hearings in Colorado. Then at
the time, budgets were tight and there wasn’t an appetite to create another regulatory
structure. I think there was a sufficient showing by Colorado coaches and the ICF that
the self-regulatory procedures were quite responsibly in place. But it took a great deal
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of effort to fend off that regulatory initiative. That’s the kind of example where
something could quite easily be triggered.
Or somebody had disappointing result in a career coaching situation. You know, coaches
have been known to give advice rather than just elicit the client’s decisions. If somebody
lost a job, again say a breach of confidentiality, or things get complex in sponsor and
client and team interactions, for example, in a corporate setting. There can be any
number of conflicts that could become adversarial.
RH: So what steps could a coach take to reduce the likelihood of a lawsuit?
BL: Well, I think there are several things and perhaps it begins with clear contracting with
your client. Having a clear written agreement with a client about focusing on what your
work would be. It’s hard to know how you could stop a disappointed client form suing
you. But I think if you were sued in a court of law, there are aspects of your practice
such as choosing the corporate form you would practice in by becoming a corporation
where that might limit to your exposure. And as I mentioned earlier, having professional
liability insurance that would include something like the cost of defense if you were
sued, because that can be an enormously expensive proposition if a matter does go to
trial for instance. The cost of defense of that as well as the time and energy involved can
be a very significant issue for a coach or anyone.
RH: So getting your agreement in writing upfront: what are the terms and conditions, how
long is it going to last, how do we measure success, what are the billing requirements...
BL: Right, so the things such as fees, timeframes, and again, it’s very interesting for me
sometimes to see how coaches that are eager to get business may promise things that
are beyond their control to deliver. I think keeping your promises and representations
close to what you have some control over.
For example in a transitional career coaching, it would be highly risky to promise that a
client in working with you will get a job. That’s not necessarily in the coach’s control. But
giving your best effort to assist them in a career search or job search, that’s perhaps a
better way of stating it.
Another element of this is in retainer agreements or engagement agreements. If you
have a code of ethics that you subscribe to. I, for example, have an addendum of ethical
concepts or principles that I adhere to. Some people incorporate by reference or attach
the code ethics of the ICF or another organization and attach it to their engagement
letter. So that somebody knows, first of all, that this is a coach principled and adheres to
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ethical principles and it’s a good discussion point if a client has questions of a coach to
discuss those upfront.
RH: Would you raise issues about certification, or I belong to this professional body?
BL: You could. There again, that potentially creates legal issues of its own. If you think of the
distinctions, again I am most familiar with the ICF, professional certified coach or
associate certified coach, or master certified coach in turf law at least in the United
States. If you hold a credential, you might be held to a higher standard of care in your
coaching work. Those credentials have pretty thoroughly articulated standards that are
described in holding such a credential. And if in a particular coaching engagement you
did not adhere to that level of standard of care that would be the sort of thing that a
lawyer representing a plaintiff would be quick to point out.
RH: Anyone going to PCC or MCC for example would, you would hope, be aiming for those
higher ethical standards anyway.
BL: Exactly. I mean, that part of the rigor and I think the credentialing process is becoming
more rigorous rather than less. Personally, I think that’s a good thing for the profession
because it gains more respects as a profession or as a field.
RH: So you mentioned two other things there. One was have a look at your corporate
structure and the other insurance. If you we get dig down in to that a little bit. What do
you mean by your corporate structure?
BL: Well again, this is going to vary greatly depending on jurisdiction.
A person can go into business and just print off business cards, declare themselves a
coach and be a sole proprietor. You could be in a partnership with one or other coaches.
Or you could form with a group of people, say a corporate structure. There are tax
implications. There are recordkeeping implications of these business structures. There
are also benefits.
For example, one of the reasons that I chose to become a corporation was there’s a
limitation of liability. If there is a dispute or something, it’s the assets of the corporation
that are vulnerable not your entire personal assets. So long as you perform the
standards and requirements such as annual meetings, articles of incorporation and by-
laws, and that you adhere to that, and keep that corporate form intact. And of course,
there are accounting and tax regulations that is important to stay not run afoul with the
local taxing authorities. Again, that’s beyond the scope of our conversation but it may
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relate. If you have a more complex structure, it may require unemployment insurance or
other deposits that get made to your taxing authority.
RH: Yeah. Paying your taxes properly certainly does pose a legal issue for companies running
themselves properly. Cash flow, making sure that you pay your staff properly – many
small businesses collapse under the weight of those things so it would be good to look
at it for coaches.
BL: Absolutely. The statistics aren’t encouraging on that front. It’s very interesting because
in my observation, many people are drawn to coaching because they enjoy the
interaction with people and I’ve heard it described as ‘administrivia’.
You know, many people don’t like the business side of sending out invoices and often
they’ll try to delegate that or do it and bookkeeping or accounting but those are
important elements. The way I reframe that basically because I don’t particularly like
sending out invoices or doing that side of the business. But the way I’d reframe that is –
and I think this applies to all aspects of the regulations that small businesses work under
– if I want to do this work, doing that work enables me to continue to do the work, and
if I ignore or just give up on it, that’s not going to bode well for the sustainability of
staying in business. That helps to some extent.
The one thing I will point out here is that as there are more and more coaches in the
world, just as your podcast as an example, there are many more business interests
willing to create products for coaches that helps streamline this operations and are
specifically customized for coaches.
RH: So insurance... You’ve mentioned unemployment insurance? I guess director’s
insurance, public liability, professional indemnity, any other sort of insurances, getting
good advice from an insurance agent would be advisable?
BL: Right. I think some kind of professional liability coverage that covers your work as a
coach.
It’s very interesting. I noticed that at least the underwriter, which is affiliate of Lloyd’s of
London, for ICF has boosted their coverage possibility. There used to be a cap of a
hundred thousand U.S. dollars but now their incremental coverages... which I think
again is an example of how coaching is beginning to arrive and people at least have the
possibility of higher earning power. It used to be that if your revenues exceeded
$100,000.00, you were out of luck for purchasing that insurance. Now, there’s a pro-
rated premium to cover a higher level of revenue as well.
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Check your local jurisdiction. Be sure the type of coverage you get covers the work that
you do and be sure you disclose accurately the questions on the application or that
could be a problem.
RH: Well, especially if you work overseas or if you are working say on Skype and you’ve got a
completely different legal jurisdiction to where your client lives.
BL: Exactly. It points out, the world is becoming more the term VUCA, the acronym of
Volatile Unpredictable Complex and Ambiguous. Those forces that inhabit the world
that I’m part of are sort of how lawyers stay occupied.
RH: Absolutely. So earlier on, we mentioned the circumstances under which a coach may get
sued and we included mergers and acquisitions, the intelligence industry, therapeutic
intervention, political sensitivity. What I wanted to just drill down into a bit I guess is the
breach of confidentiality. What about coach-client confidentiality? Does such a thing
exist with coaches?
BL: Well, to a much lesser extent. And again, this relates to the kind of length of existence of
this field as an identified field.
If you talk about attorney-client privilege or doctor-patient privilege or priest or
minister-parishioner privilege, those are fields who have been around for hundreds of
years and those privileges such that the contents of conversations or writings are
privileged, that is privileged in a sense that they cannot be disclosed if they are part of
doctor-patient or attorney-client relationship for example. Or someone in the
confessional with a priest, the priest is under a responsibility not to disclose the
contents of those confession.
Coaching has not been around that long and at least in codes of evidence that I’m
familiar with, there is not a privilege unless it’s specifically identified and authorized by
the statutory framework. I am not familiar with any jurisdiction that respects a coach-
client privilege such that records cannot be subpoenaed.
So, I think be careful of what you note in your records. Some coaches use a code so it’s
perhaps difficult to decipher. This may have an impact on both how you keep your
records and, another element that sometimes can be ignored, how you dispose of your
records.
So the security in which you keep your records and not do that in a negligent way or
leave papers out on your desk if you’re meeting with other clients. Those are things to
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attend to. Then if it comes time to dispose of records, do that in a secure and
appropriate way.
RH: We do work for the government and we work for agencies that do work for the
government. In more than one case, we’ve had decisions overturned on the basis of
scrutinizing the records of our coaches.
Our coaches have been in a situation – they’ve written records, they’ve gone back to the
government department that funded the coaching and said we think you’ve got such
and such wrong and they’ve presented our record. We’re okay with that. Their opinion
will be relied upon. Not in a legal sense. Not in the sense that they’ve been viewed as a
psychologist or a professional. But just that they’ve had very, very engaging and intense
discussions with people and very often discover more information about a situation
than anyone else in that area has. But you got to have your eyes open and realize, “Hey,
who’s going to read this report. It isn’t just going to be my client. It could be a lot of
other people.”
BL: This goes back to what I was saying about clear and comprehensive contracting. I think
it’s wise in your engagement letter with a client to have a phrase along the lines of “our
conversations or interactions are confidential subject to the limitations of the law”...
RH: Right.
BL: ...or subject to whatever restrictions that would apply that you can’t control. But what
you can control is that it would be confidential unless ordered by a court.
RH: Right.
BL: But it’s not a carte blanche or totally airtight confidentiality that coaches have.
RH: So what about contracts that have three or four stakeholders? Let’s imagine a situation
where a CEO asks you to come in and do performance coaching with an executive. So
you’ve got the company that’s hiring you, the executive you’re seeing and yourself?
What are some of the implications for a coach to think about there?
BL: Well, a lot of this goes back to how that contract gets established. It’s very interesting.
Typically, in an organizational setting, you’ll have a sponsor for the project and
somebody’s paying the bill typically the organization and you have often involvement
from Human Resources and then the coachee or the client if you’re working with an
individual.
Coach Mentor Podcast Transcript – Episode 19: Bill Lindberg – Legal Issues in Coaching Page 15 of 17
Getting clear upfront about what can be disclosed and who’s going to disclose what to
whom and having that really clear at the outset is so important. Because otherwise, it’s
not at all uncommon in the situation you posed for the sponsor or the CEO or boss to
say, “Well how’s Fred or Joan doing?” and then what do you say as a coach. That’s
something to think about.
Remember what you’ve promised to your client because, as we all know in this work,
it’s your word and trust that is the foundation for this coaching relationship to work. If
that is not fully understood about what is and what is not going to be disclosed, it can
cause no end of trouble.
RH: So get that clear upfront really. That’s the...
BL: Right. That’s the best. Unanticipated things happen but do your best to get it clear at
the contracting stage...
RH: Beautiful.
BL: ...in your statement of work or however you’re going to have the engagement letter
crafted.
RH: My mind turns to the fact that you’ve got a bit of an academic vein. You’re on faculty
with the Hudson Institute and so forth. The other piece that comes in to that is, I guess,
the issue of copyright infringement, articles, plagiarism and so forth. I see those two as
related because coaches often get into training, they produce manuals, you’ve done
that, I’ve done that. What are the implications there?
BL: Well, they can be serious. Both reputationally or just plagiarism is plagiarism. If you
borrow, and again, it’s not uncommon for a profession such as this with high levels of
collaboration and so on. That’s one of the principles outlined in the ICF code of ethics,
about respecting copyright.
At least in the United States, once an idea is transferred to tangible form, that’s
protected. Even without a copyright notice.
The safest thing to do is if you’re going to use something, someone else’s copyrighted
material, to ask permission and give credit for doing that. Sometimes there could be a
license fee involved and so on. But if you represent work to be your own and in fact it’s
someone else’s and not your own, there are potentially repercussions about copyright
infringement that can flow from that. Not just that, but reputational damage can be
done.
Coach Mentor Podcast Transcript – Episode 19: Bill Lindberg – Legal Issues in Coaching Page 16 of 17
There have been several instances where that’s happened. Where somebody has
represented work to be theirs and in fact their borrowed a little bit of this and a little bit
of that. In fact, it was someone else’s. Then suddenly they find themselves getting a
demand letter to cease and desist from copyright infringement and that can be
expensive.
RH: Especially if they’re making money from it. So if you’re in coach training let’s make really
sure you get permission. Let’s make sure it’s well-referenced, well-researched and that
you’re not taking credit from someone else’s work.
BL: Exactly. That’s just an example. There are a lot of dimensions of doing this work and
doing it at a high level, on a professional level. I think that’s just one example of many
where you have to adhere to the law or if you run afoul of it, well law has a long arm.
RH: Yeah it does… and Google finds everything...
BL: Well, particularly in a Google environment.
RH: So is there’s anything else that you feel we’ve missed that you might like to say to our
listeners?
BL: Well, despite the disclaimers, I hope we’ve done something that has specific value to
your listeners. It’s been a pleasure, Robert, working with you in doing this podcast.
RH: It’s been absolutely fantastic. Bill, thanks so much for your time and the effort that
you’ve placed in crossing these two fields. I don’t know how easy it’s been for you to
hold those two fields side by side. As you said, legal tends to be very left-brained and
coaching tends to be very right-brained.
BL: I think for many people coming, as many coaches do, from an existing field, perhaps this
is a thought to close on. When you come from a field where you’re respected and
rewarded for what you know and dispensing advice it’s very tricky to unlearn some of
those deep-seated behaviour.
I guess in my own case, lawyers, for example, listen in a certain way, particularly
litigators. Thinking how is this comment going to affect my client. It’s much different
than what I would describe as more pure listening or active listening with an open mind
as opposed to listening with an agenda. As I worked with many lawyers, some of whom
are lawyer-coaches, that often is an area of struggle – just listening with an open mind
as an open container as opposed to listening with an agenda or a thought in mind.
Coach Mentor Podcast Transcript – Episode 19: Bill Lindberg – Legal Issues in Coaching Page 17 of 17
RH: Beautiful. Well, thanks again for taking the time to speak with us today. I hope as we go
along, I get to call you again and do a follow up. Hopefully not because suddenly there’s
been an outstanding law case against a coach. I hope that doesn’t...
BL: That would be a sad reason to reconvene.
RH: I agree. Thanks Bill.
Well, we look forward to you joining us next time when we discuss the topic of
Managing Stakeholders with Ann Whyte from WhyteCo.
Remember to go to the podcast page on our website for the show notes from today and
links to organizations, businesses, books and all the research mentioned in the program.
Male Voice: You’ve been listening to the coach mentor podcast. Find us on the website at
www.frazerholmes.com/podcast. Join us next time for another exciting installment of
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