toyo toi Granice su - Oris...14 oris, number 80, year 2013 toyo ito, Interview 15 ORIS — I will...

12 13oris, number 80, year 2013 toyo Ito, Interview

of specific intellectual tendencies of Japanese architecture in the 1970s and 1980s, and developed his own method which has left a remarkable impact on the leading protagonists of the younger Japanese generation. At the very beginning of his career Ito left the tectonics of concrete and examined light-ness and transparency, disclaiming all monumentality and prominently moving towards conceptual thinking that was not based on broad and idealistic visions. He was among the first international architects to reflect deeply on the trans-forming metropolis in the late 20th century in the context of the dominance of visual domains, new lifestyles and the influence of the then economic expansion on the built envi-ronment. Ito remains the leader in research trends in Japanese architecture today and is devoted to complex three-dimen-sional spatial configurations and an entirely new conception of the relation of ‘internal’ and ‘external’ as his permanent themes. Ito is the winner of the 2013 Pritzker Prize.

Interviewed in Tokyo, 13 March 2012

¶ The Japanese architectural scene is clearly marked by gener-ational sequences and transfer of knowledge. Toyo Ito holds a special place in this sequence as he continued the activi-ties of post-war modernists, participated in the formation

oris, broj 80, godina 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju

Razgovarali u Tokiju 13. ožujka 2012.

¶ Japanska arhitektonska scena jasno je obilježena generacij-skim sljedovima i prenošenjem znanja. U tom slijedu Toyo Ito zauzima posebno mjesto jer se nastavlja na djelovanje poslije-ratnih modernista, sudjeluje u formiranju specifičnih intelek-tualnih tendencija japanske arhitekture 1970-ih i 1980-ih te razvija svoj vlastiti prosede koji je ostavio izuzetan utjecaj na vodeće protagoniste mlađih japanskih generacija. Već počet-kom svog rada Ito napušta tektoniku betona, ispituje lakoću i transparentnost, odbija svaku monumentalnost i naglaše-nije se usmjerava prema konceptualnom razmišljanju koje se ne bazira na velikim i idealističkim vizijama. Među prvim je internacionalnim arhitektima koji dubinski promišljaju tran-sformacije metropolisa u kasnom 20. stoljeću u kontekstu dominacije vizualne domene, novih životnih stilova i utje-caja tadašnje ekonomske ekspanzije na izgrađeni okoliš. Ito i dalje ostaje predvodnik istraživačkih tendencija u japanskoj arhitekturi i danas je posvećen kompleksnim trodimenzional-nim prostornim konfiguracijama i sasvim novom poimanjima odnosa ‘unutarnjeg’ i ‘vanjskog’, što su njegove trajne teme. Ito je dobitnik Pritzkerove nagrade za 2013. godinu.

Maroje Mrduljaš

razgovarao interview by

toyo ito

Granice su društveni fenomen

toyo ito

Boundaries Are a SocialPhenomenon

fotografijephotography by

Ishiguro Photographic Institute (IPI); Daici Ano (DA);Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects (TIAA); Nacasa & Partners Inc. (NPI); Koji Taki (KT); Nagano Consultant (NC)

portretiportraits

Yasuhiro Takagi

ORIS — Započet ću s pitanjem koje je u određenoj mjeri povijesno, ali mislim da se odnosi i na suvremenu situaciju i na početke vašeg rada. Upravo se održava izložba metabo-lističkog pokreta u Tokiju, a objavljena je i knjiga o metabo-lizmu, Project Japan, Rema Koolhaasa i Hansa Ulricha Obrista. Očito postoji znatan interes za metabolizam. Zašto je tako? Metabolisti su vjerovali da je moguć produktivni odnos uto-pijskog horizonta i društvene stvarnosti i da će biti prove-dene velike vizije. Moderna povijest pokazala je da arhitekti nemaju moć projektirati gradove kao cjeline. Ipak, mislite li da arhitekti danas mogu djelovati kao pokretači promjena, ali primjenjujući drugačije strategije? ¶ Toyo ito — Rem Koolhaas je moj blizak prijatelj i želio sam znati zašto je zain-teresiran za japanski arhitektonski pokret poznat kao meta-bolizam. Rekao je da se Japan u 1960-ima ubrzano kretao iz jednog urbanog projekta u drugi, dok u 1970-ima, što je vrlo misteriozno, nitko nije započinjao velike projekte. Znam da


ORIS — I will start with a question which is to some extent historical but I think is related to the contemporary situa-tion and also to the beginnings of your work. There is an exhibition of the Metabolist movement currently showing in Tokyo. A book by Rem Koolhaas and Hans Ulrich Obrist about Metabolism has also been published. Obviously there is considerable interest in Metabolism. Why is this? Metabo-lists believed it was possible to relate a utopian horizon and social reality and that large-scale visions would be imple-mented. Modern history has proved that architects don’t have the power to design cities as totalities. Yet, do you think that architects nowadays can act as agents of change, but deploying different strategies? ¶ Toyo ito — Rem Koolhaas is my close friend and I wanted to know why he is interested in the Japanese architectural movement known as Metabolism. He said that Japan in the 1960s was quickly mov-ing from one urban project to another, but in the 1970s very mysteriously there was no-one starting any large projects. I know there is a strong reason for this. I graduated from Tokyo University in 1965, and soon after that I was working in the office of Kikutake Kiyonori, one of the Metabolists who passed away recently. I worked there for several years and in that period the situation in Japan changed significantly. In the 1960s there was so much innovative and experimental architecture realized by Kenzo Tange and other Metabolists. In the second half of the sixties, students gained power and there were many demonstrations in 1969. The next year, 1970, there was an Expo in Osaka. I was extremely discouraged by the Expo. In the 1960s, many architects, Metabolists like Kenzo Tange met a dream of the future city, but when we saw the Expo we asked ourselves ‘Is this a dream?’ Also, the economic situation changed after the oil shock of the 1970s. In this context I started my own very small atelier. We didn’t work on urban projects; we had almost no projects except small private houses. For most of our generation of archi-tects, including Tadao Ando and Itsuko Hasegawa, the situ-ation was the same. I felt the architectural future was gone, and I started to criticize society through my projects. For our generation the possibility of making a beautiful utopia in a house no matter how small was essential; we were exploring how the future would go in small scale. And that was due to discarding bonds with society and finding a way of building in the 1970s.ORIS — You started to develop your ideas when faced with disillusion, knowing that the dreams of the 1960s welfare state were over, but you’ve managed to turn dissatisfaction into creativity. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes.

ORIS — You made a shift from the quite heavy concrete architecture of Japan towards lightness, towards a new con-cept of architecture which was mainly assembled from pre-fabricated materials like steel beams, aluminium sheets... You introduced a new architectural language at that time. What was the reason to start architectural research in that direc-tion? ¶ Toyo ito — In the 1970s everyone was very intro-verted and we tried to find utopia in closed spaces. I thought there was no future in architecture in the 1970s, but when the 1980s came Japanese cities became interesting again. At that time everyone would say that Japan entered a so-called social consumption ‘bubble economy’. And buildings at that time, because of the economic changes, had a value no greater than wastepaper. I think that was a very painful thing for me. The value of architecture was just like paper, while land costs were very high. Compared with the cost of land, the construction cost was nothing. Some architects worked just with beauty and paid no attention to use, buildings were demolished and plots sold. So at that time I was a little cynical about lightness. I wanted to design architecture with no weight, like paper.ORIS — Experiments with a small scale can be seen in the White U, whose concept is based on a sequence of spaces with distinct characters. These distinctions were achieved as encounters with simple architectural elements within a fluid, continuous undulating space. Could you elaborate a bit more on the concept of the White U, because I think it’s recurrent, it repeats itself in your work. Would you agree that the White U is a sort of prototype of fluid space which you continued to explore? ¶ Toyo ito — Freedom is my theme from the White U, until now because for me architecture is the experience of space, just like walking around an old Japanese garden. A Japanese garden has no strong axes or visual structure. There are many elements, usually around the pond, some trees or a tea house or stepping stones. Each person walking around the garden has a different experience, tracing many elements. I like that kind of thought, so when I think about my archi-tectural spaces I always think of some element floating in the air, and there are no boundaries. It is my ideal of space, but usually architecture has boundaries, must have boundaries. It is a contradiction which is painful for me.ORIS — In the White U, you created space which is not com-prehensible at first sight but you have to walk through it. You have to discover these subtle and even enigmatic changes. Here is a chair, there is a skylight and then an opening; dif-ferent elements gradually appear as the experience of the space unfolds. ¶ Toyo ito — That is right. In households the main theme has become sunlight, a light place and a dark


postoji jak razlog za to. Diplomirao sam na sveučilištu u Tokiju 1965. godine, a ubrzo nakon toga počeo sam raditi u uredu Kiyonorija Kikutake, jednog od pripadnika metabolista, koji je preminuo krajem 2011. Radio sam tamo nekoliko godina i u tom razdoblju se situacija u Japanu jako promijenila. Tijekom 1960-ih je bilo mnogo inovativne i eksperimentalne arhitek-ture koju su stvarali Kenzo Tange i drugi metabolisti. U drugoj polovici šezdesetih studenti su stekli moć i godine 1969. došlo je do mnogih demonstracija. Iduće godine, 1970., održan je EXPO u Osaki. Bio sam obeshrabren EXPO izložbom. U 1960-ima su mnogi arhitekti, metabolisti poput Kenza Tange, imali snove o budućnosti grada, ali kada smo vidjeli EXPO, zapitali smo se: ‘Je li ovo taj san?’. Jednako tako, ekonomska situacija promijenila se nakon naftnog šoka 1970-ih. U tom kontekstu pokrenuo sam svoj vlastiti, vrlo mali atelje. Nismo radili na urbanim projektima, gotovo da i nismo imali projekata osim malih privatnih kuća. Za većinu naše generacije arhitekata, uključujući Tadaa Anda i Itsuko Hasegawu, situacija je bila ista. Osjećao sam da je arhitektonska budućnost nestala, a ja sam kroz svoje projekte počeo kritizirati društvo. Za našu generaciju mogućnost stvaranja prekrasne utopije u kući, bez obzira koliko ona bila mala, bila je od ključne važnosti; istraži-vali smo kamo ide budućnost u malom mjerilu. A to je bilo tako zbog napuštanja veza s društvom i traženja načina građenja u 1970-ima.ORIS — Počeli ste razvijati svoje ideje kada ste se suočili s razočaranjem, znajući da su snovi o državi blagostanja iz 1960-ih nestali, ali ste uspjeli nezadovoljstvo pretvoriti u kre-ativnost. ¶ Toyo ito — Da.

ORIS — Učinili ste pomak od prilično teške betonske arhitek-ture Japana prema lakoći, prema novom konceptu arhitekture koja je uglavnom sastavljena od montažnih, prefabriciranih elemenata poput čeličnih greda, aluminijskih panela… U to ste vrijeme uveli novi arhitektonski jezik. Što je bio razlog za početak arhitektonskih istraživanja u tom smjeru? ¶ Toyo ito — U 1970-ima su svi bili introvertirani, a mi smo pokušali pronaći utopiju u zatvorenim prostorima. Mislio sam da nema budućnosti za arhitekturu 1970-ih, ali kada su došle 1980-e, japanski gradovi postali su opet zanimljivi. Svatko će reći da je Japan tada ušao u razdoblje takozvanog potrošačkog društva ‘bubble ekonomije’. U to su vrijeme zgrade, zbog ekonomskih promjena, imale vrijednost koja nije bila veća od vrijednosti papira za otpad. To je bilo vrlo bolno. Vrijednost arhitekture bila je baš kao vrijednost papira, dok su troškovi zemljišta bili izrazito visoki. U usporedbi s troškovima zemljišta, troškovi gradnje bili su beznačajni. Neki arhitekti radili su samo na ljepoti i nisu obraćali pozornost na upotrebu, zgrade su bile srušene, a parcele prodane. Dakle, u to vrijeme sam bio pomalo ciničan u vezi lakoće. Htio sam projektirati arhitekturu koja nema težinu, poput papira.ORIS — Eksperimenti u malom mjerilu mogu se vidjeti u kući Bijelo U čiji se koncept temelji na sekvenci prostora s jasnim karakterom. Značajke su postignute kao susreti s jednostav-nim, ali neočekivanim arhitektonskim elementima unutar flu-idnog, kontinuirano zaobljenog prostora. Možete li pojasniti koncept kuće Bijelo U, jer mislim da se on ponavlja u vašem radu? Biste li se složili da je Bijelo U vrsta prototipa fluidnog prostora koji ste nastavili istraživati? ¶ Toyo ito — Sve do

U to vrijeme sam bio pomalo ciničan u vezi lakoće. Htio sam dizajnirati arhitekturu koja nema težinu, poput papira

At that time I was a little cynical about lightness. I wanted to design architecture which has no weight, like a paper

Yatsushiro Municipal Museum, Yatsu-shiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1988 – 91

Gradski muzej Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1988. – 91.

(TIAA)


place and again a light place and a dark place, it is a rhythm. People inhabit a rhythm of light and dark and a rhythm of air and sounds.ORIS — You used the sound of the wind in the Silver Hut house and in the Yatsushiro Municipal Museum with the curved roof. You gradually moved in the direction of the architecture of sound, light, intense experience of non-phys-ical space. ¶ Toyo ito — In the 1980s more importance was given to materials than to light or sound. It was interesting walking through the urban space. I lost my gravity and got the impression I was floating in a space of light and sound. In that city created by light or sound or information I felt as if I was floating in the sky, in the air. Experiencing that type of city, I wondered how I could make architecture even lighter. Then the Tower of Winds project came, and the very light floating roof museum project.


danas je sloboda moja tema iz Bijelog U, jer je arhitektura za mene iskustvo prostora, baš kao i šetnja drevnim japanskim vrtom. Japanski vrt nema jaku os ili vizualnu strukturu. Postoje mnogi elementi, obično oko jezera, stabla ili paviljon za čaj ili kamenje u vodi. Svaki čovjek koji se kreće vrtom doživljava drugačije iskustvo otkrivajući mnoge elemente. Volim tu vrstu misli, pa kad razmišljam o svojim arhitektonskim pro-storima, uvijek mislim o nekom elementu koji pluta u zraku, a ne postoje granice. To je moj ideal prostora. Ali arhitektura ima granice, mora imati granice. To je kontradikcija koja je za mene bolna.ORIS — U Bijelom U stvorili ste prostor koji nije razumljiv na prvi pogled, već se morate kretati kroz njega. Morate otkriti ove suptilne, pa čak i zagonetne promjene. Ovdje je stolica, tamo je svjetlarnik, a zatim otvor, različiti elementi se postupno pojavljuju kako se odvija iskustvo prostora. ¶ Toyo ito — To je točno. U kućama je glavna tema postala sunčevo svjetlo, svijetlo mjesto i tamno mjesto i opet svijetlo mjesto i tamno mjesto - to je ritam. Ljudi nastanjuju ritam svjetla i tame i ritam zraka i zvukova.

Srebrna koliba, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1982. – 84.

Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76., tlocrt

Silver Hut, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1982 – 84

White U, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76, plan

Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76.

Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76.

White U, Nakano-ku,Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76

White U, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76

Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, Tokio, Japan, 1975.-76.

White U, Nakano-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 1975-76

(KT)

(TIAA)

(KT)

18 19oris, number 80, year 2013 toyo Ito, Intervieworis, broj 80, godina 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju

Toranj vjetrova u Yokohami, Nishi-ku, Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan, 1986., kolaž

Tower of Winds in Yokohama, Nishi-ku, Yokohama, Kanagawa, Japan, 1986, collage


ORIS — In the 1980s metropolis cityscapes were changing, becoming a sort of digital media ‘image’, especially in Tokyo. You included this new experience of urban environment as media space in the Tower of Winds and Egg of Winds projects. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. In the 1980s Tokyo was most exciting for me, and thinking about other cities in the world I was wonder-ing if Tokyo was the only city in the world that consists of non-material things like light, sound and information. From there, I was interested in what kind of architecture would emerge from those places. That was the time when I was thinking how to make architecture as light as possible or as transpar-ent as possible.

ORIS — Your interest in the new metropolis condition was not only about the visual aspects but also about the new and emerging lifestyles which you presented in experimental projects and exhibitions like Tokyo Nomad Woman. ¶ Toyo ito — That time and the city founded by information were enjoyable for me, but for single young women it was even more enjoyable. That’s why Tokyo Nomad Woman was a criti-cal project. Looking at and studying those women, the city was their home so they did not need a real home; even if they owned just a tent, that would be enough for them. For them the important thing was eating out, drinking out, going to movies, urban life as excitement. The project itself was their city lifestyle. For me that kind of relationship and consumma-tion of architecture was a new problem.ORIS — Are there some negative aspects of this way of life, especially when you observe the phenomenon of urban nomadism from today’s perspective? Extreme mobility and lack of rootedness could have seemed like liberation and even emancipation, but they also undermined the fabric of local communities and promoted an extremely individualistic self-perception. So it is quite an ambiguous situation. ¶ Toyo ito — My feeling was in a sense positive and in a sense nega-tive. I was enjoying the new aspect of the city but enjoyment in the new lifestyles was dependent on money. In consumer societies everything is buyable. People are satisfied spend-ing money. Young girls were enjoying themselves but they all spent money so I was critical about that aspect. Anyway, that kind of lifestyle brought an architecture that was only


ORIS — Koristili ste zvuk vjetra u kući Srebrna koliba ili u Gradskom muzeju Yatsushiro sa zaobljenim krovom. Postu-pno ste krenuli u smjeru arhitekture zvuka, svjetla, intenziv-nog iskustva ne-fizičkog prostora. ¶ Toyo ito — U 1980-ima je materijalu dana veća važnost nego svjetlu ili zvuku. Bilo je zanimljivo hodati kroz urbani prostor. Izgubio sam gravitaciju i dobio dojam da lebdim u prostoru svjetlosti i zvuka. U tom gradu, stvorenom od svjetla ili zvuka ili informacije, osjećao sam se kao da plutam na nebu, u zraku. Doživjevši taj tip grada, pitao sam se kako bih mogao napraviti čak i lakšu arhitekturu. Tako je došlo do projekta Tower of Winds (Toranj vjetrova) i projekta vrlo laganog plutajućeg krova muzeja.

ORIS — U 1980-ima se gradske vizure metropola mijenjaju i postaju neka vrsta digitalnih medijskih ‘slika’, posebice u Tokiju. Vi ste ovo novo iskustvo urbanog okruženja kao medijskog prostora uključili u projekte Tower of Winds i Egg of Winds (Toranj vjetrova i Jaje vjetrova). ¶ Toyo ito — Da. Tokyo mi je 1980-ih bio najuzbudljiviji grad i razmišljajući o drugim gradovima u svijetu pitao sam se je li Tokio jedini grad na svijetu koji se sastoji od ne-materijalnih stvari poput svjetla, zvuka i informacije. Zanimalo me kakva će arhitektura nastati iz tih mjesta. U to vrijeme sam razmišljao kako napraviti što je moguće lakšu ili što je moguće transparentniju arhitekturu.ORIS — Vaš interes za novo stanje u metropoli nije bio samo u vizualnim aspektima, već i u novim životnim stilovima koje ste prikazali u eksperimentalnim projektima i izložbama poput Tokyo Nomad Woman (Tokijska žena nomad). ¶ Toyo ito — To vrijeme i grad temeljen na informacijama bili su mi ugodni, ali jednoj mladoj slobodnoj ženi grad je bio još ugodniji. To je razlog zašto je Tokyo Nomad Woman bio ključan projekt. Gledao sam i proučavao žene kojima je grad bio dom jer im nije bio potreban pravi dom. Čak i da su imale samo šator, to bi im bilo dovoljno. Bilo im je važno da jedu vani, piju vani, idu u kino, urbani život dožive kao uzbuđenje. Sam projekt je bio njihov gradski stil života. Ta vrsta odnosa i konzumiranje arhitekture bio mi je novi problem.ORIS — Postoje li negativni aspekti takvog načina života, pogotovo kada se promatra fenomen urbanog nomadizma iz današnje perspektive? Ekstremna mobilnost i nedosta-tak ukorijenjenosti mogli su izgledati kao oslobođenje, pa

Pao I, skica za ‘Pao: obitavalište za Tokijsku ženu nomada’, Tokio, 1985. U eksperimentalnom projektu Obitavalište za tokijsku ženu-nomada, Ito reagira na socio-urbane dinamike Tokija 1980-ih koji je tada na vrhuncu ekonomskog prosperiteta što utječe i na radikalno nove načine života. Ob-zirom da se život tokijskih urbanih žena tada odvija između posla, zabave i kulture - dakle konzumiranja grada uz minimalno korištenje stalnog obitavali-šta - projekt predlaže lagane stambene jedinice koja uključuje mikro-prosto-re posebno opremljene za specifične funkcije koje se obavljaju "kod kuće": užina, uljepšavanje, intelektualni rad.

Pao I, sketch for ‘Pao: A Dwelling of Tokyo Nomad Woman’, Tokyo, 1985 With the experimental project Dwellings for a Tokyo Nomad Woman project, Ito reacts to the social and urbanistic dynamics of 1980s Tokyo. It was at the peak of its economic prosperity, which radically influenced new ways of life. Since the life of urban women in Tokyo took place between work, entertainment and culture, i.e. consuming the city with the minimum use of a permanent residence, the project suggests light housing units containing micro-spaces that wo-uld be specially equipped for specific functions that are performed ‘at home’: snack, styling, intelligence.

Jaje vjetrova, Chuo-Ku, Tokio, Japan, 1991.

Egg of Winds, Chuo-Ku, Tokio, Japan,1991 (TIAA)


interesting on the surface, and that was interesting in itself. At the time I wrote an article. The title was ‘If We Don’t Jump into the Consumer Sea, New Architecture Will Not Come’. There’s a Japanese saying: if we don’t go to a dangerous place, interest-ing things won’t happen...ORIS — In 1997 you wrote the influential text ‘Tarzans in the Media Forest’ arguing that human beings have a real body and a virtual body which is, I think, essential for your work. How did this idea of having two bodies affect your architec-tural work? How do you translate the concept of these two bodies into the articulation of space? ¶ Toyo ito — Tra-ditionally, humans possess a physical body, and from differ-ent information we make a body of consciousness that was combined in this virtual body. However, slowly our unified human body began to be torn apart into two. This led to a variety of social issues and differences between the old way and new way of thinking. Bodies could no longer be success-fully combined together. Here I found myself in the middle of a dangerous situation, waiting to see what would occur. I wanted to see what would happen, while still using this virtual body (that began to be torn apart) and continuing to build. This led me to create architecture in the pursuit of its lightness and transparency.ORIS — This thinking about the physical and virtual body relates to the question of boundaries. Architecture has boundaries, but there is one boundary for the physical space and a second boundary for the virtual body related to percep-tive space. I think this ambiguity between physical bounda-ries and mental boundaries plays an important part in your work. It’s about the difference between literal and phenom-enal transparency. ¶ Toyo ito — I wanted to design lighter or more transparent architecture but all architecture, if it is


čak i emancipacija, ali su isto tako potkopali tkivo lokalnih zajednica i promovirali iznimno individualističku samoper-cepciju. Dakle, to je prilično ambivalentna situacija. ¶ Toyo ito — Moj osjećaj je bio u jednom smislu pozitivan, a u dru-gom negativan. Uživao sam u novom aspektu grada, ali uži-vanje u novim životnim stilovima je ovisilo o novcu. U potro-šačkim društvima sve se može kupiti. Ljudi su bili zadovoljni trošeći novac. Mlade djevojke su uživale, ali su svi oni trošili novac, pa sam bio kritičan u tom pogledu. U svakom slučaju, ta je vrsta života dovela do toga da je arhitektura bila zanimljiva samo površinski, a to je bilo zanimljivo samo po sebi. U to vrijeme sam napisao članak čiji naslov je bio ‘Ako ne skočimo u potrošačko more, nova arhitektura neće se dogoditi’. Postoji japanska poslovica: ‘Ako ne odemo na opasno mjesto, neće se dogoditi zanimljive stvari...’ORIS — Godine 1997. napisali ste utjecajan tekst ‘Tarzani u medijskoj šumi’ tvrdeći da ljudska bića imaju fizičko tijelo i virtualno tijelo koje je, mislim, bitno za vaš rad. Kako je ova ideja o postojanju dva tijela utjecala na vaš arhitektonski rad? Kako prevesti koncept tih dvaju tijela u artikulaciju prostora? ¶ Toyo ito — Tradicionalno, ljudi posjeduju fizičko tijelo, a iz različitih informacija stvaramo tijelo svjesnosti koje je u kom-binaciji s ovim virtualnom tijelom. Međutim, naše jedinstveno ljudsko tijelo polako se počelo razdvajati na dva dijela. To je dovelo do raznih socijalnih pitanja i razlika između starog i novog načina načina razmišljanja. Tijela više nisu mogla biti uspješno kombinirana zajedno. Tu sam se našao u središtu opasne situacije, iščekujući da vidim što će se dogoditi. Htio sam vidjeti što će se dogoditi još uvijek koristeći ovo virtu-alno tijelo (koje se počelo razdvajati) i nastaviti graditi. To me dovelo do stvaranja arhitekture koja je u potrazi za lakoćom i transparentnošću.ORIS — Ovo razmišljanje o fizičkom i virtualnom tijelu vezano je za pitanje granica. Arhitektura ima granice, ali jedna granica je za fizički prostor, a druga granica vrijedi za virtualno tijelo koje se odnosi na perceptivni ili mentalni pro-stor. Mislim da ova dvosmislenost između fizičkih i mental-nih granica igra važnu ulogu u vašem radu. Riječ je o razlici između doslovne i fenomenološke transparentnosti. ¶ Toyo ito — Htio sam projektirati laganiju ili transparentniju arhi-tekturu, ali sva arhitektura, ako je realizirana, nije protiv gra-vitacije i uvijek ima unutrašnjost i vanjštinu. Dakle, kao što ste rekli, arhitektura ima fizičke granice i virtualne granice, dvije granice koje nikada ne mogu biti iste. To je bila vrlo zanimljiva situacija, ali imao sam dvojbe.ORIS — U Sendai Medijateci ste koristili različite vrste stakla kako bi se postigle različite razine transparentnosti.

Vatrogasna stanica, Yatsushiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1992. – 95.

Dom za starije, Yatsushiro,Kumamoto, Japan, 1992. – 94.

Fire Station in Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1992 – 95

Old People's House in Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro,

Kumamoto, Japan, 1992 – 94

(tiaa)

(tiaa)


realized, is not against gravity and always has an inside and an outside. So as you said, architecture has a physical boundary and a virtual boundary, two boundaries which can never be the same. It was a very interesting scene, but I had doubts.ORIS — In Sendai Mediatheque you used different types of glass in order to achieve different levels of transparency. You were combining transparent and semi-transparent bounda-ries between the inside and outside, but also within the building. You also explored reflections, which also played an important role in your earlier projects. In many of your projects you use similar effects but different types of materi-als. You treat space like liquid, so the space gets density and one can experience and feel the space as a tangible phenom-enon. ¶ Toyo ito — There are seven floors, and usually every floor’s activity is different and they are separated, but always connected to each other by the tubes. The usual order of 1st floor, 2nd floor, 3rd floor was not what I wanted to do, but to make a change, for example, with a hole leading from the 1st floor to the 3rd floor. That solution had an interesting feel to it.ORIS — The idea of overlapping programmes is already present in the Yatsushiro Fire Station where you reinter-preted typological conventions. You lifted the building up and created a public space below it. It’s an original concept which introduced public space into a normally closed typol-ogy. There is a continuous trajectory of typological research from the fire station to the Old People’s House in Yatsushiro and then to Sendai. You explored new ways of creating some-times unexpected types of public space embedded in the projects. ¶ Toyo ito — I finished the museum in Yatsushiro in 1991. It attracted attention and became popular. The expres-sion was good and fresh but the programme itself was very classical and I couldn’t touch or change it. It was a big regret for me, so after that I wanted to change the programme for public buildings and, as you said, the fire station and the old people’s home. That kind of space is more ambiguous, and people can be more comfortable and relaxed in it. I like the Yatsushiro Fire Station project, it is next to a primary school. The children went to the fire station after school; the firemen’s training is so exciting and they can see it every day. The sec-ond floor especially is a good space for watching the training. Usually fire stations do not have neighbours because they are always noisy, but people should understand the firemen’s ordi-nary, everyday lives that are so hard, they cook for themselves and it is tough training. So the programme has changed a little and the Old People’s House is also a little better than the usual programme; to me it was a touching and innovative project. After 25 years I could finally influence programmatic aspects.


Kombinirali ste transparentne i polutransparentne granice između unutrašnjeg i vanjskog prostora, ali i unutar zgrade. Jednako tako, istraživali ste refleksije koje su odigrale važnu ulogu i u vašim ranijim projektima. U mnogim svojim pro-jektima koristite slične učinke iako koristite različite vrste materijala. Prostor tretirate kao tekućinu tako da dobiva gustoću i može se doživjeti i osjetiti kao gotovo opipljiv fenomen. ¶ Toyo ito — Sedam je katova i obično svaki kat ima različite aktivnosti pa su odvojeni, ali međusobno pove-zani cijevima. Uobičajeni redoslijed, prvi kat, drugi kat, treći kat, nije bio ono što sam htio učiniti, već napraviti promjenu, primjerice s rupom koja vodi od prvog do trećeg kata. To se rješenje činilo zanimljivo.ORIS — Ideja preklapanja programa je već prisutna u vatro-gasnoj postaji Yatsushiro gdje ste reinterpretirali tipološke konvencije. Podigli ste zgradu i stvorili javni prostor ispod nje. To je originalan koncept koji je uveo javni prostor u inače zatvorenu tipologiju. Tu postoji kontinuirana putanja tipo-loškog istraživanja od vatrogasne postaje do Doma umirov-ljenika u Yatsushiru, a zatim do Medijateke Sendai. Istražili ste nove načine projektiranja ponekad neočekivanih tipova javnog prostora ugrađenih u projekte. ¶ Toyo ito — Muzej u Yatsushiru završio sam 1991. To je privuklo pozornost i postao sam popularan. Oblikovanje je bilo dobro i svježe, ali program je bio vrlo klasičan i nisam ga mogao dotaknuti ili promijeniti. Zbog toga sam jako žalio, pa sam nakon toga htio promijeniti programe za javne zgrade i, kao što ste rekli, za vatrogasnu postaju te Dom umirovljenika. To je dvosmislenije i ljudima može biti ugodnije pa su opušteniji u takvom prostoru. Sviđa mi se projekt vatrogasne postaje Yatsushiro. Nalazi se pored osnovne škole. Djeca odu do vatrogasne postaje nakon škole, a vježbe vatrogasaca su izuzetno uzbudljive, tako da ih sva-kodnevno mogu promatrati. Drugi kat je posebno pogodan za gledanje treninga. Obično vatrogasne postaje nisu u blizini stambenih zgrada jer su uvijek glasne, ali ljudi bi trebali razu-mjeti običan svakodnevni, vrlo teški život vatrogasaca. Oni kuhaju za sebe i imaju vrlo naporan trening. Dakle, program se ponešto promijenio. I Dom za umirovljenike je isto tako malo bolji od uobičajenog programa. Za mene je to bio dirljiv i inovativan projekt. Nakon 25 godina napokon sam mogao utjecati na programske aspekte.ORIS — Bilo je potrebno uložiti mnogo napora u pregova-ranje s različitim stranama uključenim u proces projektiranja u Sendai. Ako sam u pravu, trebalo je pet godina za izradu projekta. Svaki kat Sendaia je vrsta krajolika: krajolik infor-macija, krajolik namještaja, krajolik događaja. Korijeni ovog otvorenog kocepta prostora mogu se pratiti od natječaja za

Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000., lijevo: crteži Toyo Ito

Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000, left: sketches by Toyo Ito

Tlocrt 7. kata7th floor plan

Tlocrt 1. kata1st floor plan

Tlocrt 2. kata2nd floor plan

Tlocrt 3. kata3rd floor plan





Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000.

Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000

(TIAA)


ORIS — It took a lot of effort to negotiate with the different parties involved in the design process of Sendai. If I’m correct it took five years to develop the project. Each floor of Sendai is a sort of landscape: landscape of information, landscape of furniture, landscape of events. The origins of this open plan can be traced from the competition for the university library in Paris which is a non-hierarchical system defined by a sim-ple layout and the bookshelves. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. I always want to create non-hierarchical space because architecture is usually very strict and wants to keep a hierarchy. Programmes always control people and I always want to be free from such control. When people are walking outside architecture or the city, they are freer, especially children. They cannot run inside architecture, they have to sit quietly, but when they go out of the house or the building they can be free. I’d like to make more space where people can be free.ORIS — Sendai’s spaces are quite extrovert and alive, they are open spaces where people can read or browse through multimedia but also wander around and meet each other. Was it your intention to encourage mixing between diffe-rent social groups, to stimulate integration between peo-ple? ¶ Toyo ito — Yes, it was my intention not to separate social groups, children should be here, old people should be here, but it happened more than I expected. Even in the library there are small children running and sometimes being a little noisy, while older people are watching videos, DVDs, all day and next to them there is a student computer workshop. They are always mixing. A year after the opening, I heard from the staff in Mediatheque that the older people’s habits had chan-ged. It was very nice.


Natječaj za Sveučilišnu knjižnicu u Parizu, 1992.

University Library Paris, competition project, 1992

sveučilišnu knjižnicu u Parizu koja je nehijerarhijski sustav definiran jednostavnom strukturom i policama. ¶ Toyo ito — Da. Uvijek želim stvoriti nehijerarhijski prostor jer arhitektura je obično vrlo stroga i želi zadržati hijerarhiju. Programi uvijek kontroliraju ljude, a ja želim biti slobodan od takve kontrole. Kada ljudi hodaju izvan arhitekture ili grada, slobodniji su, a osobito djeca. Unutar arhitekture ne mogu trčati, moraju mirno sjediti, ali kad izađu iz kuće ili zgrade mogu biti slobodni. Htio bih napraviti više prostora gdje ljudi mogu biti slobodni.ORIS — Sendai ima prostore koji su prilično ekstrovertni i živi. To su otvoreni prostori gdje ljudi mogu čitati ili pregledavati multimediju, ali i lutati okolo i upoznavati jedni druge. Je li vaša namjera bila da se uključi socijalizacija između različitih društvenih skupina kako bi se stimulirala integracija između ljudi? ¶ Toyo ito — Da, moja namjera je bila ne odvajati društvene skupine jer bi djeca trebala biti ovdje i stari ljudi bi trebali biti ovdje, ali se dogodilo više nego što sam očekivao. Čak i u knjižnici mala djeca trče, ponekad su malo bučna, stariji ljudi po cijeli dan gledaju video i DVD, a do njih se nalazi stu-dentska računalna radionica. Oni su uvijek pomiješani. Godinu dana nakon otvaranja čuo sam od osoblja u Medijateci da su se navike starijih ljudi promijenile. To je bilo jako lijepo.ORIS — Inovativni strukturalni sustav u Sendaiu je bitan za prostornu artikulaciju zgrade. Polazna točka projekta bila je poetična metafora plutajuće alge u tekućem prostoru. Jeste li razmišljali o strukturnim izazovima od početka? ¶ Toyo ito — Doista, prvi koncept je bio da treba biti izrađena od materijala sličnim algama. Međutim, bilo je očito da to nije moguće napraviti od te vrste mekog materijala. Materijal Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000. Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000 (tiaa)

(TIAA)


ORIS — The innovative structural system in Sendai is essen-tial for the building’s spatial articulation. The project’s star-ting point was a poetic metaphor of seaweed floating in liquid space. Did you think about the structural challenges from the beginning? ¶ Toyo ito — Indeed, the first concept was that it should be made from materials similar to seaweed. Howe-ver, it was obvious that it was not possible to make it from that kind of soft material. That’s why the structure’s materials had to be changed to harder materials. That was completely different from the original idea; however, going to the con-struction site and seeing the light but strong standing shape tubes made me rethink. To divide rooms with walls was not something I intended to do. Rather, by using tubes I wanted to create a space similar to a forest. Creating freedom in space that resembles moving through a forest of tubes was what I intended to do. For example, every person uses space for different things, someone wanting to read a book wants to go to a smaller silent space, and when people want to gather and talk they go to larger, wide spaces, that’s how the space conception was decided from the beginning.

ORIS — There is a similarity and a difference between the Sendai Mediatheque and Tama Art University Library (Hac-hioji campus). Both are non-hierarchical open systems but in Tama Art University you defined sub-spaces using an arched structural system. The structure is visually very simple and discreet but it articulates the space. I imagine it was very demanding to design the structural system in Tama because you have very slim, gently curved walls with arches and big spans. It couldn’t be possible without sophisticated structural calculations. ¶ Toyo ito — Sendai was also like that... The structural engineer who worked on Sendai and Tama is Mut-suro Sasaki. He is excellent and always understands immedia-tely what I want to do, I am very happy with him. As you said, Tama is very simple but in a sense also more complicated. In Tama there are many winding lines, each space is articulated. In Sendai it is always continuous space; Tama is simplified by the arches but you have both articulation and continuation. That is more exciting for me. The space is a little articulated, but the function, rounding furniture, continues the space again.


nosive konstrukcije morao je biti promijenjen u čvrsti materi-jal. To je bilo potpuno drugačije od originalne ideje, međutim, odlasci na gradilište gdje sam vidio lagane, ali čvrste oblike cijevi potaknuli su me na razmišljanje. Nisam namjeravao dijeliti sobe zidovima. Umjesto toga, pomoću cijevi sam želio stvoriti prostor sličan šumi. Namjeravao sam postići stvaranje slobode u prostoru nalik kretanju kroz šumu cijevi. Na primjer, svaki čovjek koristi prostor za različite stvari: netko tko želi čitati knjigu ići će u manji, mirniji prostor, a kad se ljudi žele okupiti i razgovarati, ići će u velike, široke prostore. Tako je prostor koncipiran od početka.

ORIS — Postoje sličnosti i razlike između Sendai Medijateke i knjižnice Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus). Obje su nehijerarhijski otvoreni sustavi, ali u Sveučilištu Tama definirali ste podprostore koristeći se strukturalnim susta-vom lukova. Struktura je vizualno vrlo jednostavna i diskretna, ali artikulira prostor. Pretpostavljam da je bilo vrlo zahtjevno projektirati strukturalni sustav u Sveučilištu Tama jer imate vrlo tanke, lagano zakrivljene zidove s lukovima velikog ras-pona. To ne bi bilo moguće bez sofisticiranih izračuna. ¶ Toyo ito — Sendai je također bio takav... Građevinski inženjer koji je radio na Sendai i na Tami je Mutsuro Sasaki. On je odli-čan i uvijek odmah razumije ono što želim učiniti. Vrlo sam zadovoljan njime. Kao što ste rekli, Tama je vrlo jednostavna, ali u određenom smislu također i složenija. U Tami postoji mnogo vijugavih linija, svaki prostor je artikuliran. U Sendai uvijek postoji kontinuirani prostor; Tama je pojednostavljena pomoću lukova, ali imate i artikulaciju i kontinuitet. To mi je uzbudljivije. Prostor je blago artikuliran, ali funkcija, zaobljeni namještaj, čine prostor kontinuiranim.

Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan,1995. – 2000.,crtež Toyo Ito

Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan,1995 – 2000, sketchby Toyo Ito

Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai,

Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000., presjek

Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai,

Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000, section


ORIS — You are increasingly interested in treatment of the floor. In Tama the ground floor is sloped, while the first floor is horizontal. The experiences of spaces are different, and you achieved that using very simple means. ¶ Toyo ito — The slope on the ground is the same slope as the surrounding terrain. We made a slope inside the building and the student can go through the building. If it was horizontal, the surroun-dings and the architecture would be separated.ORIS — The ground floor is partly passageways down the hill. Looking from inside, you almost can’t tell where the building’s boundary is because the structural elements of the façade and interior are the same. The glass is very thin, it has only one sheet, so it is ambiguous when you are inside the space, you are not completely sure which arch is inside and which is defining the exterior perimeter. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes, some people said it’s a boundary, the glass is always a boun-dary but in my concept it is the arch, the arch line is continuing, more extending. The space spreads as far as it can, but in the end it has to be cut somewhere.


ORIS — Sve ste više zainteresirani za arikulaciju poda. U Tami je prizemlje nagnuto, a prvi kat je horizontalan. Iskustva pro-stora su različita, a postigli ste to koristeći vrlo jednostavne načine. ¶ Toyo ito — Nagib prizemlja je isti kao nagib na okolnom terenu. Napravili smo nagib unutar zgrade, a stu-denti mogu proći kroz zgradu. Da je pod horizontalan, okolina i arhitektura bili bi razdvojeni.ORIS — Prizemlje je dio prolaza niz brdo. Gledajući iznutra, gotovo da se ne može reći gdje je granica zgrade jer su struk-turni elementi pročelja i interijera isti. Staklo je vrlo tanko, ima samo jedan sloj. Kada ste u interijeru, niste potpuno sigurni koji luk je unutra, a koji definira vanjski perimetar. ¶ Toyo ito — Da, neki ljudi su rekli da je to granica. Staklo je uvijek granica, ali u mom konceptu to je luk, linija luka je kontinuirana, više se širi. Prostor se širi koliko je to moguće, ali na kraju mora negdje biti prekinut.

Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007.

Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007.

Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007., presjek

Tama Art University Library (Hachioji campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan, 2004 – 2007

Tama Art University Library (Hachioji campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan, 2004 – 2007

Tama Art University Library (Hachioji campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan, 2004 – 2007, section

(ipi)

(ipi)

5275

2400

3600

3675

2150

1710

0

B1FL

1FL

2FL

M2FLFloat Glass t=15

(Curved)

Closed StackLaboratoryOpen Stack & Reading

Temporary TheatreCafe Arcade Gallery

Seismic Isolation Pit Machine Compact Stack

FCU

GutterBook Holder + Duct Cover

Tempered Glass t=5(For Fire Crew)

Float Glass t=12(Flat)

FCU

Void Slab

Fire Protection ScreenTask Lighting

Air Conditioning (Outlet)Asphalt Prepared Roofing+Heat Insulation+Concrete PanelIndirect Lighting Disc

FloorRaised Access Floor+Tile Carpet 500x500 t=10

Folding Doors (Gallery Carry-in Entrance)

Grating CoverGutter

Seismic Isolation ClearanceW=500

Gutter

Upper LightingAHUAir Conditioning (return)

Seismic IsolatorSlip Bearing Compact Stack

FCU (Hung Under Floor) Pendant Lighting Air Duct

Ceiling & WallExposed Concrete

FloorExposed Concrete

+Toughening Agent Finish

Air Conditioning (Outlet)

Grating Cover

Gutter

Carrel

1/40

1/20

D 4 6 10 1 7 9 B

(Office Floor Level)

Expand-metal Screen

+Hydrophobizing Agent Finish


ORIS — One of the effects you wanted to achieve is to have identical finishes of the inside and outside surfaces. That is what you introduced in TOD’S Omotesando Building for example. In Tama it is the same. What is the reason for that? ¶ Toyo ito — Until Sendai the transparency was just glass, but if I used more glass it looked to me as if it was a wall and I wanted to find another method for treatment of inside and outside. In TOD’S, the wall outside and inside is completely the same. So, when people go inside they feel as if they are outside. It was a new discovery for me. So after that I tried it again in Mikimoto Ginza 2.ORIS — The design process in Mikimoto was quite complex because you were exploring where to place openings and then you were calculating the load stress in the wall and then you would place another opening so the layout of the façade is not totally random; it is a combination of random and structural calculations. The arrangement of the openings is not arbitrary but follows the inner logic of the wall. A simi-lar synthesis of free form and perfect structural logic was achieved by Gaudi. You can design optimized free forms more efficiently today because you have new computer tools and software. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. Until 20 years ago, we were unable to proceed with plans to make random buildings just like that. However, now we can use technology and run simu-lations to predict and fix any unpredictable problem using the laws of physics. Looking at Gaudi, we find it interesting that he needed ten years to complete something that nowadays with simulation would take only one week.


ORIS — Jedan od učinaka koji ste željeli postići je da unu-trašnje i vanjske površine imaju identične završetke. To ste, primjerice, uveli u zgradi TOD’S Omotesando. U Tami je isti slučaj. Što je tome razlog? ¶ Toyo ito — Do Sendaia je tran-sparentnost bila samo u staklu, ali da sam koristio više stakla, izgledalo bi kao da je zid, pa sam htio pronaći neki drugi način za rješavanje unutrašnjeg i vanjskog. U TOD’S-u je zid izvana i iznutra potpuno isti. Dakle, kada ljudi uđu, osjećaju se kao da su vani. To mi je bilo novo otkriće. Kasnije sam to pokušao ponovno u Mikimoto Ginza 2.ORIS — Proces projektiranja u Mikimotou je bio prilično složen jer ste istraživali razmještaj otvora, a onda su se izra-čunavala opterećenja u zidu i potom bi smjestili drugi otvor tako da izgled pročelja nije posve slučajan. To je kombinacija slučajnosti i statičkog izračuna. Raspored otvora nije proizvo-ljan, već slijedi unutarnju logiku zida. Sličnu sintezu slobodne forme i savršene konstruktivne logike postigao je Gaudi. Danas je moguće učinkovitije projektirati optimizirane slo-bodne forme jer postoje novi računalni alati i softveri. ¶ Toyo ito — Da. Do prije dvadeset godina nismo bili u mogućno-sti tako lako projektirati zgrade s kompleksnim strukturama. Međutim, sada možemo koristiti tehnologiju i koristiti simu-lacije kako bismo predvidjeli i popravili neki nepredviđeni pro-blem koristeći zakone fizike. Gledajući Gaudija, zanimljivo je da je njemu bilo potrebno deset godina da dovrši nešto za što bi nam danas sa simulacijom bilo potrebno samo tjedan dana.

TOD’S Omotesando Building, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 2002 – 2004

Zgrada TOD’S Omotesando, Shibuya-ku, Tokio, Japan, 2002. – 2004.

MIKIMOTO Ginza 2, Chuo-ku, Tokio, Japan, 2003. – 2005.

MIKIMOTO Ginza 2, Chuo-ku, Tokyo, Japan, 2003 – 2005

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ORIS — Did this experience with the free shaping of vertical structural elements influence the new concepts of three-dimensional space you introduced in the Taichung Metro-politan Opera House and other projects? I would say that this experience of vertical elements enabled you to start with the exploration and investigation of cave-like spaces. ¶ Toyo ito — Using the technology of computer simulations available today, we are able to make complex three-dimen-sional architecture. Now we can design and calculate almost anything but to make something like that is very difficult, because eventually the last person making the structure is human. Analysis is now possible but construction is very dif-ficult. It’s not so expensive but it always involves fights with the construction company. Maybe robot technology will help construction in the near future.

The New ‘Real’ in Architecture, retrospektivna izložba Toya Ita, Tokyo Opera City Art Gallery, Tokio, Japan, 2006.

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The New ‘Real’ in Architecture, Toyo Ito retrospective exhibition, Tokyo Opera City Art Gallery, Tokyo, Japan, 2006


ORIS — Je li ovo iskustvo sa slobodnim oblikovanjem verti-kalnih konstruktivnih elemenata utjecalo na nove koncepte trodimenzionalnog zaobljenih prostora koje ste upotrijebili u zgradi Taichung Metropolitan Opera i drugim projektima? Rekao bih da je ovo iskustvo vertikalnih elemenata omogu-ćilo početak istraživanja i korištenja prostora poput špilja. ¶ Toyo ito — Koristeći tehnologiju računalnih simulacija koja je dostupna danas, u mogućnosti smo napraviti složenu trodimenzionalnu arhitekturu. Sada možemo osmisliti i izra-čunati gotovo bilo što, ali nije jednostavno tako nešto izve-sti. Na kraju je onaj koji gradi čovjek. Analiza je sada moguća, ali izgradnja je vrlo teška. Nije tako skupo, ali uvijek iziskuje borbu s građevinskom tvrtkom. Možda će u bliskoj budućnosti u izgradnji pomoći robotska tehnologija.

Zgrada za Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002. – 2005.

Zgrada za Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002. – 2005.

Building for Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002 – 2005

Building for Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN, Higashi-ku, Fukuoka, Fukuoka, Japan, 2002 – 2005


ORIS — What is the reason for introducing this new spa-tial concept, for more organic architecture which resembles Kiesler’s Endless House for example? Why did you start with the exploration of landscape like architecture where the floor is no longer flat but folds? ¶ Toyo ito — This is an issue about boundaries. Usually when we go to the opera or a concert, we enter the building from the outside, walk on the floor and enter the hall. I wondered if it would be possible to change that process, to be able to enter the hall but still have the feeling that we are outside. I wanted to make that kind of architecture, that was a challenge for me. Figuratively speaking, inside the human body there are a lot of tubes, and when humans eat food that food is in their stomach. Is that stomach inside or outside? We can say it is both.ORIS — You collaborated with Andrea Branzi. How did it happen, was it because of an affinity to his work or did he approach you, how did you meet? ¶ Toyo ito — When we worked together I drew some image and he always explained the concept of my image. It was a very good relationship. My cloudy visions were explained to me with words, and then those thoughts became clear to me. When he designs pro-ducts, he is a genius. He always enjoys the ride.


ORIS — Što je razlog za uvođenje ovog novog prostornog koncepta, za više organsku arhitekturu koja sliči Kieslerovoj Beskrajnoj kući? Zašto ste počeli s istraživanjem arhitekture koja nalikuje krajoliku gdje podovi više nisu ravni, već savi-nuti? ¶ Toyo ito — To je tema o granicama. Kada idemo na operu ili na koncert, obično ulazimo u zgradu izvana, hodamo po podu i uđemo u dvoranu. Pitao sam se je li moguće promije-niti taj proces, da uđemo u dvoranu, ali još uvijek imamo osje-ćaj da smo vani. Htio sam osmisliti takvu arhitekturu. To mi je bio izazov. Figurativno rečeno, unutar ljudskog tijela postoji mnogo cijevi, a kad ljudi jedu hranu, ona je u njihovom želucu. Je li taj želudac unutra ili izvana? Možemo reći da je oboje.ORIS — Surađivali ste s Andreom Branzijem. Kako se to dogodilo? Je li to bilo zato što cijenite njegov rad ili je on vama prišao? Kako ste se upoznali? ¶ Toyo ito — Kad smo zajedno radili, nacrtao bih neke skice, a on bi mi uvijek objasnio koncept skice. Bio je to vrlo dobar odnos. Moje zamagljene vizije rastu-mačene su mi riječima, a zatim su mi te misli postale jasne. Kad dizajnira proizvode, on je genij. Uvijek uživa u procesu.

Metropolitan Opera Taichung, Taichung, Tajvan, 2005., presjeci

Taichung Metropolitan Opera House, Taichung, Taiwan, 2005, sections

Metropolitan Opera Taichung, Taichung, Tajvan, 2005.,maketa – konceptualna faza

Taichung Metropolitan Opera House, Taichung, Taiwan, 2005,model – conceptual phase

One year after the opening, I heard from the staff in Mediatheque that older people’s habits had changed. It was very nice

Godinu dana nakon otvaranja, čuo sam od osoblja u Medijateci da su se navike starijih ljudi promijenile. To je bilo jako lijepo


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ORIS — Krećete se u smjeru ne-euklidske arhitekture. Raz-mišljate li o tome kao o naprednom obliku javnog prostora? Mislite li da će bogatije prostorne konfiguracije potaknuti više življih društvenih susreta? Kako protumačiti ovaj novi tip prostora? Kako će ga ljudi doživjeti? ¶ Toyo ito — Pod-zemna konstrukcija zgrade Taichung Metropolitan Opera je završena i sada se ide prema gore, iznad površine tla, a ja to mogu osjetiti sada, vrlo djelomično, unutar trodimenzional-nog prostora. Mogu zamisliti ove prostore i oni su stvarno flu-idni. Naravno, možda jedno staklo odvaja unutrašnje i vanjsko. U velikom parku je to tako da ljudi hodaju i nesvjesno prošeću unutra i iskuse stepenice, predvorje i ulazni prostor. Možda je to potpuno drugačiji tip ulaznog prostora i predvorja, to je tekući prostor.ORIS — Testirali ste pregibanje horizontalnih ploha u Island City Central Park GRIN GRIN u Fukuoki, ali ovoga puta je krov bio presavijen. Počeli ste s istraživanjem krajolika kao arhi-tekture. Mislite li da se u vašem radu arhitektura i krajolik sve više približavaju? ¶ Toyo ito — Da, to je moj ideal prostora. Kad sam imao retrospektivnu izložbu, dizajnirao sam valoviti pod i svi ljudi, posebice djeca, ušli su u taj prostor i počeli trčati ili sjediti. Pregibi su prostorna konfiguracija u kojoj se ljudi osjećaju kao da su vani. Uvijek želim stvoriti prostor koji ‘osobu odvodi van’.ORIS — Iznimne su ove vrste naprednih projekata i novih prostornih koncepata. No 99% izgrađene okoline je vrlo jednostavno i odvija se na uobičajen način. Ako zamislimo da je cijeli grad izgrađen kao kontinuirani fluidni prostor, to bi moglo biti u koliziji s generičkom povijesti grada. Možda gradovi trebaju neutralno tkivo. Mislite li da grad može biti projektiran kao beskrajan valoviti prostor ili ovaj novi koncept treba biti rezerviran samo za javne zgrade ili specifične situa-cije? ¶ Toyo ito — U mom umu prostor se uvijek se nastavlja i širi, ali svaka arhitektura ima granicu. Granica za mene nije pročelje, pitanje granica je pitanje društva. U mom umu ne postoji kraj. To je na neki način apstraktni prostor. Ne mogu zamisliti da cijeli grad postaje jedan valoviti prostor; međutim, grad i krajobrazne strukture su fleksibilniji i mogli bi se proširiti i postati više nalik starijim zgradama.

ORIS — You are moving in the direction of non-Euclidian architecture. Do you think about it as an advanced form of public space? Do you think that richer spatial configurations are going to stimulate more vibrant social encounters? What is the reading of this new type of space, how are people going to experience it? ¶ Toyo ito — The underground construc-tion of Taichung Metropolitan Opera House is finished and now it is going up above the ground and I can feel now, very partially, inside the three-dimensional spaces. I can imagine these spaces and they are really fluid. Of course maybe one glass cuts inside and outside. It is in a big park so people walk around the park and unconsciously walk through the inside and there are steps and the experience of the foyer and the hall. Maybe it’s a completely different type of entrance hall and foyer, it’s a liquid space.ORIS — You tested undulating floors in the Island City Cen-tral Park GRIN GRIN in Fukuoka but it was the roof which was folded. At that point you started the exploration of this landscape like architecture. Do you think that architecture and landscape are increasingly coming together in your work? ¶ Toyo ito — Yes, it is my ideal of space. When I had a retros-pective exhibition I designed a wavy floor and everyone, espe-cially children, went inside that space and started running or sitting. Webbing is a spatial configuration in which people feel as though they are outside. I always want to create a space which ‘takes one outside’.ORIS — These types of advanced projects and new spatial concepts are exceptional. But 99% of the built environment is very simple and done in an ordinary way. If we think of a whole city built as continuous fluid space it could be in colli-sion with the generic history of the city, maybe cities do need this neutral tissue. Do you think that a city can be constitu-ted as endless undulating space, or this new concept should be reserved only for public buildings or specific situations? ¶ Toyo ito — In my mind space is always continuing and expanding, but all architecture has a boundary. The boundary is not a façade for me, it’s just social. In my mind there is no ending. It is in a way an abstract space. I cannot imagine a whole city becoming one undulated space; however, city and landscape structure are more flexible and could expand and become more like older buildings here.

ORIS — Istraživali ste i projektirali prostore koji su fluidni i pokušali ste se odmaknuti od konvencionalnog pojma gra-nica. Možemo li se odnositi prema tom konceptu kao odjeku japanske graditeljske tradicije gdje se prostor slobodno pro-teže u svakom smjeru? ¶ Toyo ito — Stare japanske zgrade imale su razgraničenje unutarnjeg i vanjskog. One nikada nisu odvojene jednim čvrstim zidom, nego umjesto toga s puno lakih pregrada. Vjerujem da takav način gradnje ima buduć-nost u današnjoj arhitekturi. Japanska moderna arhitektura bila je pod utjecajem Europljana posljednjih sto godina. Zatim se način izgradnje zgrade promijenio, ako govorimo o razdvajanju vanjskog i unutarnjeg i odvajanju prostora. Ipak vjerujem da je taj utjecaj sada gotov.

ORIS — You research and design spaces which are fluid and try to move away from the conventional notion of bounda-ries. Can we relate to this concept as an echo of Japanese arc-hitectural tradition where space freely extends in every direc-tion? ¶ Toyo ito — Old Japanese buildings had a separation between outside and inside. They are never separated by one strong wall, but instead with lots of light partitions. I beli-eve that way of building has a future in today’s architecture. Japanese modern architecture was influenced by Europeans for the last hundred years. Then the style of making buildings changed, talking about separation of inside and outside and separation of spaces. Still I believe that influence is now over.

Muzej arhitekture, Imabari, Imabari, Ehime, Japan, 2008. – 2011.

Museum of Architecture, Imabari, Imabari, Ehime, Japan, 2008 – 2011


ORIS — You have influenced a new generation of Japanese architects: Kazuyo Sejima worked with you, you helped Sou Fujimoto a lot, many people went through your school. Can you recognize similarities between their concepts and your approach? Do you think that there is such a thing as the Ito school? ¶ Toyo ito — I am not conscious of that. As for Kazuyo Sejima and Akihisa Hirata they were working in my office so when we designed something together, we discussed a lot. I think I had no hierarchy working with them even if they were freshmen. Of course, first I tell them the very basic conceptual image of the new project and after that they are very free to make drawings, sketches and at that stage there’s no hierarchy if I feel the freshmen’s ideas are nice. The next day, we are changing again, changing, changing, changing in a very democratic way.ORIS — You initiated and designed the architectural museum in Imabari. Your activities have always been about communi-cating architecture – exhibiting, writing, teaching, it was not only practice. What was your intention and how is it related to your contemporary concerns? ¶ Toyo ito — There is no architecture in museums in Japan so I want that general audience visiting the museum to know about contemporary architecture. For me, architecture is not only designing and realizing my works, but also discussing them with the general public, students, children, how to help the local area, the tsu-nami area, my museum area. We want to construct buildings in a unity of one thought. What is architecture and for whom are we making it, they are the fundamental questions and by various activities we are answering those questions. I visited the tsunami area, especially Kamaishi more than five times every month and I talked many times with people who lost their houses. They lost their homes and not just their homes, they are thinking about their community, their future, safety and the city, even more than the local government. When I talk to them they present me with their thoughts and vision about their future and how they imagine it. For me that is really exiting since they don’t expect financial aid from me, instead they are asking me to design their future.

ORIS — Utjecali ste na novu generaciju japanskih arhite-kata: Kazuyo Sejima radila je s vama, puno ste pomogli Sou Fujimotu, mnogi ljudi prošli su kroz vašu školu. Prepozna-jete li sličnosti između njihovih koncepata i svojeg pristupa? Mislite li da postoji takva stvar kao što je Ito škola? ¶ Toyo ito — Nisam toga svjestan. Što se tiče Kazuyo Sejime i Aki-hisa Hirata, oni su radili u mojem uredu, pa kad bismo nešto projektirali zajedno, dosta smo raspravljali. Mislim da nije bilo hijerarhije u radu s njima, čak ni kada su tek stigli u ured. Naravno, prvo bih im objasnio osnovnu koncepciju novog pro-jekta, a nakon toga su imali slobodu napraviti crteže, skice i u toj fazi nije bilo hijerarhije ako sam osjećao da su ideje novaka bile dobre. Sljedećeg dana ponovno smo mijenjali, mijenjali, mijenjali i mijenjali na vrlo demokratski način.ORIS — Inicirali ste i projektirali Arhitektonski muzej u Ima-bari. Vaše aktivnosti uvijek su bile vezane za komuniciranje putem arhitekture - izlaganjem, pisanjem, podučavanjem. To nije bila samo praksa. Koja je bila vaša namjera s muze-jom i u kakvoj je vezi sa suvremenim problemima? ¶ Toyo ito — U muzejima u Japanu nema arhitekture pa sam želio da šira publika koja posjeti muzej nešto sazna o suvremenoj arhitekturi. Za mene arhitektura nije samo projektiranje i rea-liziracija vlastitih radova. O arhitekturi raspravljam s javnosti, studentima, s djecom, o tome kako pomoći nekom lokalnom području, području pogođenom tsunamijem, mojem muzej-skom području. Želimo graditi zgrade u jedinstvu jedne misli. Što je arhitektura i za koga je radimo, to su temeljna pitanja, a odgovaramo na njih raznim aktivnostima. Posjećivao sam područje pogođeno tsunamijem, pogotovo Kamaishi, više od pet puta mjesečno, i razgovarao sam mnogo puta s ljudima koji su izgubili svoje domove. Oni razmišljaju o svojoj zajednici, svojoj budućnosti, sigurnosti i gradu čak i više od lokalnih vla-sti. Kad razgovaram s njima, predstave mi svoja razmišljanja i vizije o svojoj budućnosti i kako su je zamislili. To je stvarno uzbudljivo jer oni ne očekuju financijsku pomoć od mene, nego zahtijevaju da projektiram njihovu budućnost.

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