Tiananmenat30

EventTranscriptFairbankCenterforChineseStudies,HarvardUniversityMay8,2019https://fairbank.fas.harvard.edu/events/panel-discussion-tiananmen-at-30/Speakers:HaoJian,Professor,BeijingFilmAcademyLouisaLim,SeniorLecturer,UniversityofMelbourne;Author,ThePeople’sRepublicofAmnesia:TiananmenRevisitedWangDan,FounderandExecutiveDirectorofDialogueChinaJeffreyWasserstrom,Chancellor’sProfessorofHistory,UniversityofCaliforniaIrvineModerator:RowenaXiaoqingHe,CurrentMember,InstituteforAdvancedStudyatPrinceton;Author,TiananmenExiles:VoicesoftheStruggleforDemocracyinChina[MichaelSzonyi]-Allright,goodafternoon.WelcometotheFairbankCenterforChineseStudiesatHarvardUniversity.Myname'sMichaelSzonyi.IamthedirectoroftheFairbankCenteranditismyprivilegetointroducetoday'ssessionmarking30yearssincetheextraordinaryeventsofMayandJuneof1989.Whilewehavecalledtoday'ssession"Tiananmenat30",ofcoursetheseeventsoccurrednotjustatTiananmenSquareorevenjustinBeijing,butincitiesalloverChina.Theseeventsculminated,asweallknow,onJune4th,1989inaactofmilitarysuppressionthattookplacealsonotonly,orevenprimarilyinthesquareitselfbutthroughoutthecityandbeyond.Anyonecouldhavepredictedthatthisyear,2019,wouldbeasensitiveyearforanniversariesinChina.AsJiayangFanwroteinTheNewYorkerthisweek,fortheCCP,"certainanniversariesteeterbetween"theemblematicandtheproblematic."Asthingshaveunfolded,theyearprovedfarmoresensitiveforfarmoreanniversariesthanwehadanticipated.Problematicdefinitelyoutweighedemblematic.Besidesthe40thanniversaryoftheestablishmentofUS-Chinarelations,the40thanniversaryoftheTaiwanRelationsAct,hereattheFairbankCenterwe'veheldeventsincludingacommemorationof40yearsofreformandopeningupwhichweco-hostedandco-organizedwiththeUniruleInstituteofEconomicsandthatevent,webelieve,provedtobeoneoftheverylast,ifnottheverylast,publiceventforthatveryinfluentialliberalthinktankinChina.WesimilarlycommemoratedthecentenaryoftheMay4thMovementwithatwo-dayconferenceorganizedbyProfessorDavidWang.Someofyou,likeme,wereatthatconferenceandIthinkmanyofuswhoattendedthatconferencewerediscouragedthat,asoneofourguests,JeffWasserstrom,pointedoutinhislongNewYorkTimesop-ed,acenturyafterMay4th,afreeandopendiscussionofthateventanditssignificanceremainsimpossibleinChina.AswithMay4th,sotooJune4th.Buteveninayearofsensitiveanniversaries,there'ssomethingdistinctiveabouttheeventwecommemoratetodaybecauseofcoursetherearenocommemorationsatallofthis

event--ornopubliccommemorationsofthiseventatallinChina.ThisisaneventthatcanonlybespokenofoutsideofChina.TheFairbankCenteratHarvardishomeforChinastudiesinallforms,even,andinsomewaysespeciallywhenthetopicissensitive.Wevalueourcommitmenttointellectualfreedomtopursuequestionsandresearchthatothersmightwantustoavoid.It'sourresponsibilitytoholdeventssuchastoday's,bothasanacademicendeavorinthefaceofofficialsuppressioninChinaandasamarkofrespecttothosewhoselivesweretakenorscarredbytheevents30yearsago.TheimportanceofourdiscussionsontheCCP'srelationshipwiththeChinesecitizenryisonlyelevatedbythecontextofotherhumanrightscrisesthatareunfoldinginChinatoday,inparticularthecurrentcrisisinXinjiang,reinforcestheimportanceofourpersistentpursuitoftruthinthefaceofrepression.Letmejustsayacoupleofwordsaboutthegroundrulesfortoday'sevent.Iwillintroduceourmoderatorinamomentandthenaskhertointroducethepanelists.Today'seventisbeingrecordedbytheFairbankCenterforfuturebroadcast.Please,forobviousreasons,weaskthattherebenoadditionalrecording,noprivaterecordingoncellphones,andsoon,andwewillcomeandaskyoutostopifweobservethathappening.InabreakfromtheusualFairbankCenterpractice,wewillnotaskthosewhoaskquestionstoidentifythemselves,soyouareperfectlyfreetoaskyourquestionsanonymouslyandIshouldalsoaddthatwhateverformtheultimatebroadcasttakes,onlythespeakerswillberecordedforbroaderdistributionsoyouneedhavenofearsonthatscore.Letmenowbegintoday'seventbyintroducingourmoderator,ProfessorRowenaHe,currentlyamemberoftheInstituteforAdvancedStudyatPrincetonUniversity,theauthorofabook,"TiananmenExiles:VoicesoftheStruggleforDemocracyinChina",abookwhichshecompletedwhileshewasapostdochereattheFairbankCenter.WhilealsoattheFairbankCenter,shecreatedthefreshmanseminar,"TiananmeninHistoryandMemory",whichwasanextraordinarilysuccessfulandimportantcoursethatshetaughtforfiveyears,from2010to2015.SheisanoldfriendoftheFairbankCenter.It'sourhonortosupportRowena'swork.SopleasejoinmeinwelcomingRowena.-[Rowena]Thankyousomuch,Michael,andIwouldliketothanktheFairbankCenterfororganizingtheevent.WhatMichaelsaidjustnow,I'msuremanyofushere,likeProfessorShiRuipingintheaudience,whohadbeeninTiananmenthewholetimein1989,andEddie,whohadbeenreportingfortheWallStreetJournalin1989,I'msureitmeansalotforustobeheretoday.Also,asMichaelmentioned,wealwayshavespecialruleswhenweorganizeeventsfortheanniversary.AllthoseyearswhenIorganizedmystudenteventsImadethatrule,andprobablythat'stherealitywehavetoface:wecare,werefusetoforget,butthenwefaceallthisfearevenoutsideChina,andthat'sabattle,awaragainstmemorythatwehavebeentryingtofightagainstcollectively,insideandoutsideChinaalltheseyears.SoIthinkthat'sexactlywhyit'ssoimportantforustobeheretoday.BeforeIintroducethespeakers,Ialsowouldliketotalkaboutsomeonewhohasbeenveryimportantsupportingthisworkalltheseyears.He'smydearmentor,ProfessorRodMacFarquhar,andeverytimehewouldbesittingatthefront,supportingandencouraging.He'sbeenarolemodelforsomanyofusasWangDantoldDianaatthedinnerjustnow.AndnowRodisgone,butforthoseofuswhoaredeterminedtofollowhisstepsandhisinspirations,wearegoingtopickupthejob.It'shard,it'sdifficult,it'schallenging,it'sdauntingbuthealwaysshowedusthatweshouldstandupfortheprinciplesandnotjusttounderstandtheChinesepolitics,toreconstructhistory,butalsocareabouttheChinese

people,theirlivesandChina'sfuture.AndwhenRod,whenItoldhimaboutthispanelhewroteme:"Excellentnews.""Nolongerwillyouhavetodoallthework"torememberTiananmen."AndIamsavingthismessagetoremindmyself.IknowthatRodisnotsittinginthefronttoday,buthisspiritiswithusinthisroomasalways.SoIwouldliketointroduceourfirstspeaker,ProfessorHaoJianprofessorfromtheBeijingFilmAcademy.I'msureit'sparticularlymeaningfulforProfessorHaoJiantobeheretodaybecausefiveyearsago,whenheorganizedaprivatecommemorationinhishomeinBeijing,rightafterwards,fiveofthemweredetainedandarrestedandmanyofyou,likePuZiqianghadlosthisfreedomafterthatevent.Soit'sparticularlymeaningfulforustowelcomehimtoday,tospeakforus,freelyandopenlyonthiscampusforthefirsttimesince1989.Let'swelcomeProfessorHaoJian.-[HaoJian]I'msogladthatProfessorMichaelSzonyiupdatedtheChinesesituationforyou.Thefirstsentenceofmyspeechis,after30years,thisisthefirsttimetocommemoratetheJune4thincidentinpublic,forme.IgivemysincereappreciationtoFairbankCenterforChineseStudies.Thankyouforholdingthisopendiscussion.Thankyoutoallofyou,theaudience.Today,I'mhappytohavetheopportunitytocommunicatewithyouandexchangesomeideas.TheTiananmenmassacreofJune4th,1989wasnotonlyavitalmilestoneinChinesehistory,butalsoahistoricalturningpointfortheendoftheColdWar.ThefailureoftheCommunistswasatragicexampletopeoplefromEasternEuropeanCommunistcountries.ItalsomadepeoplefromallovertheworldknowmoreabouttheviolentnatureoftheCommunisttotalitarianregime.After1989,weChinesepeopleboreimmensepressureineveryaspectofoursociallife.Manycountriesaremovingtowardsconstitutionaldemocracyandsocialjustice,butChinaisnot.TheJune4thincidentalsochangedmyunderstandingoftheChineseregimeandmypersonallife.IwasatTiananmenSquareonJune3rd.HearingtheroarofarmoredtrucksIworkedoutofBeijingFilmAcademy'stent.Laterthatnight,astudentwasshotdown20metersinfrontofme.WhenweescapedoutofChang'anAvenue,wewerestillchantingslogansandthewholestreetwaspermeatedwithsmokefromsmokebombs.ThemorningofJune4th,Igotacalltellingmethatmymalecousinhadnotreturnedhome.IimmediatelywenttoFuxingHospitalandsawhisnameonthecasualtylistonthewall.Thereweredozensofcorpsesonthefloor,butIfailedtorecognizehimamongthosecorpses.Maybebecausepeople'sfaceschangeafterdeathbutmorelikelyIdidnotwanttorecognizehimamongthosecorpses.InthefollowingdaysIwenttodozensofotherhospitals,openedtherefrigeratorstocheckcorpses.AfterhalfamonthIreturnedtoFuxingHospitalandIfoundthathiscorpseatthattime,hisbodyhadturnedjet-black.AftertheJune4thcrackdownChinahassufferedfromterror.WhenIorderedthisgravestoneIdidnotdaretoputtheinscriptionsonit.OnlyaftersixyearsdidIhireastonemasontowritethenameonit.TiananmenMothersalsowentthroughthisprocessofwalkingawayfromfear.BecausetheyeachhadfamilymemberskilledonJune4th,theybecametargetedgroupsandtheywereoftenfollowedandharassedbythepolice.Onthehearingstand,ZhangXianlingdiscoveredanote.ZhangXianlingistherightone.Shefoundanotesaying,"Ihavethesamedestinyasyou."ThisnotewasleftbyYouWeijieTheyhaveworkedtheretogethereversince.NowYouWeijieisthespokespersonoftheTiananmenMothers.IhavebeentryingmybesttohelpTiananmenMotherstodosomething,suchasattemptingtocontactandvisitbereavedfamilies.Intellectualsof1989'sgenerationsuchasLiuXiaobowrotealotofjointpetitionsandlots

ofarticles.In1995,LiuXiaoboandtheTiananmenMotherspresentedthosepetitions.Iconvincedmyuncleandaunttoovercometheirfear.TheysignedthejointpetitionoftheTiananmenMothers.AfterthatpublicationofCharter08,LiuXiaobowasarrestedbytheChineseauthorities.We,hisfriends,sufferedatoughcrackdown.WhenwewenttovisitLiuXiaobo'swife,wedon'tknowwhattosaytoher.InApril2009,wehesitated.Shouldwecontinuetospeakupinthishigh-handedpoliticalenvironment?Eventually,webecamefirminourdecisiontocommemoratetheJune4thincidentandtospeakforit.Wethought,"ThisisthebestsupportforLiuXiaoboinprison."So,inApril2009,wesecretlyconvenedaJune4thseminar.Wecouldn'tfindaformalmeetingplace,soweusedthemeetingroominarestaurant.Afterthemeeting,wepublishedtheinformationandthephotosontheinternet.Becauseofthegovernmentcontrol,Imadetheseminar'sbannerindifferentstores.Yousee,Icutthesebanners...inspots,andpiecedthemtogetherintoone.DuringJune4th,duringtheearlyJunethatyearIwasfollowedbyapolicemanandmystudent...Theyfindhim:"Oh,youarethestudentofHaoJian.""Okay,youdon'tfollowHaoJian."HewasassignedtofollowanotherprofessorinBeijingFilmAcademy,CuiWeiping.Thiscommemoration,in2009youknow,hereitissocrowded,it'shardforyoutofindmebecausewegotnoplace.WedidthisinZhangXianling'sapartment.In2014,acommemorationofthe25thanniversaryofJune4thwasheldatmyhome.IeliminatedthisbecauseHeXiaoqinghasintroduceditforyou.Thesearethetopicsofthatseminarin2014.Yousee,afterthatseminar,XuYouyuofferedtotakeresponsibility.Heemphasizedtothepolicethathewastheonlyorganizeroftheseminar.Also,thisisPuZiquiang,averyfamoushumanrightslawyer,andalsoanintellectual,whokeptusspeakingupinpublic.Heisoneofthe1989generationasWangDan,HislifewasdramaticallychangedbytheJune4thincident.ItwasIwhoaskedthatPuZiquiangattendtheJune4thseminar.Ifeelguiltyaboutthat.SoIwasverysurprisedthathesenthisthankstomeforinvitinghim.Hesaidthathehadbeeninvestigatedbythepoliceandthatitwasjustamatteroftimebeforehewouldbesenttoprison.HewaswillingtoattendthatJune4thseminaratthecostofimprisonment.HebelievedthathehadtheresponsibilitytospeakforJune4th.Hewasproudtodoso.PuZhiqianggotprobationofthreeyearsduringwhichtimehehadtowearamonitoringdevice.WhenImetwithhim,hewasbusytryingtofindapowersupplytorechargehisGPS.Ifoundthispicturefromtheinternet;it'snotarealone.AndElderHuShigenwhoattendedthismeetingisstillinjail.Becauseofthetimelimit,Icannotintroducemanyotherindividualsandtheirgroups.Forexample:somepeoplewerelabeledasthugsbytheChinesegovernmentafterJune4thincident,someofwhomweresentencedtodeath;someofwhomweresenttoprisonforyears.Thisislastyear.Wecommemorateourrelatives.Youseealotofpolicemenaroundhere.Sometimes,therearemorepolicementhanus.IwillendthisspeechbyshowingabamboopaintingbyaJune4th"thug",WuWenjian.HewassentencedtosevenyearsinprisonbecauseoforganizingandprotestinginBeijing.Preservethebloodymemory.Preventthetragedyfromrepeatingitself.ImustdowhatIshoulddo.Wemustdowhatweshoulddo.Thankyou.ThankyouforsufferingthroughmybrokenEnglish.-[Rowena]ProfessorHaoJianhaspublishedmanybooks.Heiseloquentandheknowshiswork,butwhenhefoundoutthathewouldhaveachancetospeaktoday,Ican'trememberhowmanytimeswecommunicatedandhowmuchtimehehadworkedforthis10minutetalk.Notbecausehetriedtolookgood,notbecauseheproveshisEnglishisgood,not

becausehewantstoshowthatheknowsbetterbutbecausehewantedtomakesurethatheusedthis10minutesforthefirsttimein30yearsinhislifethathecanspeakopenlytoouraudienceandtotellthemwhathappened,asMichaeleloquentlyspokeatthebeginning,sothatthosevoicesthathavebeensilenced,thosememoriesthathavebeenraisedandthoseyoungliveswhocannotspeakforthemselveswouldbeheardandthememorywouldberemembered.AndthiswouldbeagoodtimetointroduceLouisaLim,whohadwrittenthisimportantbook,"ThePeople'sRepublicofAmnesia:TiananmenRevisited".AsweallknowhowdifficultitistoworkonsensitivetopicslikeTiananmensoit'sreallycourageousofhertopickupthistopicandtowritethisbook.Inherimportantbook,shealsomentionedthecrackdowninSichuan,inChengduwhichhadnotbeencovered,sothisisveryimportantforustoknowthat,notjustinTiananmen,inBeijingthatthekillinghappenedbutalsoinotherplaces.Solet'swelcomeLouisa.-[Louisa]ThankyouRowena,thankyouMichaelandeveryoneattheFairbankCenterfororganizingthis.And,particularly,thankyouHaoJianfordescribingwhattheactofmemoryislikeinsideChinatoday.I'mgoingtotalkaboutBeijing'samnesiaonJunethe4th:howit'sbeingenforcedandexported.AndI'mgoingtostartwithwordswrittenbyLiuXiaobo,China'sNobelPeaceLaureatewhodiedinpolicecustodyfromcancer.Asyouprobablyknow,hewasoneofthosewhohelpedbrokerthetrucethatallowedstudentstoleavethesquarein1989andafterthat,everyyearhewroteanelegytoTiananmen.Thesearewordsfromhis2002elegy,butIthinktheysumupBeijing'ssuccessinerasingTiananmenfromthecollectivememoryandthatwassowellillustratedbyHaoJian'sslides.Hesaid,"Allroadwaysareblocked."Alltearsareundersurveillance."Allfreshflowersareshadowed."Allmemoriesarepurged."Alltombstonesarestillblank."17yearslater,17yearsafterhewrotethosewordstheyarestilltrueandevenmoresothanbefore,Ithink.TheauthorYanLiankedescribedamnesiainChinaas"astate-sponsoredsport",andoneofthemostpopulareventsinthatsportisforgettingTiananmen.IwroteinmybookabouthowChina'smanagedtoerasethecollectivememoryofJunethefourthsosuccessfullythat,whenIwentaroundcampusesaskingstudentsiftheycouldidentifyapictureofTankManonly15outof100studentswereable,atthattime,toidentifythepicture.Anditreallyshowshowmemoryhasbecomesopoliticized,butIthinksincethen,thecontroloverhistoryandmemoryhasonlytightened.We'veseenhistorybeinglegislatedwithnewlawstoprotectheroesandmartyrsandincreasinglyprivateremembrancesarebeingpenalizedasHaoJianillustrated.ButIthinkwhat'sreallyinterestingisnowwe'realsoseeingattemptstoexportthatamnesiaandwe'reincreasinglyseeingWesterncorporationsluredbytheChinesemarketthataredoingBeijing'sbiddingandcensoringcontentaboutTiananmenbutinsideandoutsideChina.Sojustacoupleofexamplesthathavehappenedinrecentyears:justinthelastmonthwesawAppleremovingTiananmen-relatedsongsbyCantopopstars,includingJackyCheungfrominsideChina,fromthecatalogthere.Overthepastfewyears,there'sbeenacoupleofincidentswhereLinkedInhascensoredusersoutsideChinafrompostingcontentonJunethe4th,andthespokesmanevenexplainedthisbysaying,"Itwasamovetocreatevalueforourmembers".AndthenwesawtheChinaQuarterly,ascholarlyjournalbeinggivenalistoftitlestotakedown,andoutofthemorethan300titlestheauthoritiesaskedtheChinaQuarterlytoremovefromitswebsiteinsideChina,it'sinterestingthat10%ofthosehadTiananmenorJunethe4thintheirtitle.Anothercase,whichisparticularlyinteresting,wasreportedbytheWallStreetJournalaboutaChinese

educationcompanycalledVIPKids,andtheyfiredtwoAmericanteachersfortalkingaboutTiananmenandTaiwanintheironlineclasses.TheinterestingthingaboutthisisthattheteacherswerenotinChina.TheywereinAmerica.TheywereteachingonlinetostudentsinChina.So,thinkaboutthat:thisisacompanythatemploys60,000teachersintheU.S.andCanada,butmainlyteachingChinesekids.Sointhiswaywe'reseeingthoseclosed,discursiveplacesofChineseclassroomsbeingexportedoverseas.Andwe'realsoseeingthissustainedandcoordinatedcampaigntoinfluenceWesternreportingontheTiananmenanniversary.SoI'drecentlydoneasurveyofjournalists'anniversaryreportingandthree-quartersoftherespondentsinmysurveyreportedexperiencingharassmentofvarioustypesfromtheauthorities.ThemostobvioustypewasbeingblockedfromgoingtoTiananmenSquare.Thathappenedto60%ofrespondents.Andalmostthesamenumberhadaccesstosourcesblocked,afifthofjournalistshadtheirsourcesharassedordetained,andthesamenumberalsohadcomplaintsabouttheircoverage.Evenintheharassmentthere'sallkindsofinnovation.Recentlytherehavebeenpicturesthatyou'veprobablyseenofTiananmenSquareincreasinglybeingblanketedbysecuritycameras,andoftenthesesortofA.I.poweredfacialrecognitioncameras.Buttherearealsoverylow-techmethodsthatarebeingusedandin2009,therewasaparticularyearwhentheinnovationwassuperlow-tech.Thesecurityforces,plainclothespolicemen,tooktothesquarewithumbrellasandtheywouldliterallystandbetweencameramenandthejournaliststoruintheirpiecestocamerasotheycouldn'treportfromthesquare.Soallofthisisacoordinatedcampaignfromdifferentarmsofthegovernmentwhichreally,itlimitsthereportinganditlimitsthetypeofstorythatgetstold,becauseaccesstothosepeoplewhorememberwhathappened,thosememory-carriers,islimited.Andsoweareseeinginthisway,theprocessofforgetting,theactualmovementitselfbeingacceleratedandexportedbecausejournalistscanonlywriteonestory:thestoryofoppression.Theycan'twriteanyotherstories.PhilipGrahamveryfamouslysaid,"Journalistswritethefirstdraftofhistory",buthere,throughthesekindofattempts,Ithinkwe'reseeingarepressivestatewhichisslowlyandverypatientlyredactingandretroactivelyeditingthatdraftofhistorysothatweforget,intheWest,weforgetthemovement,weonlyrememberthatactofoppression.Somybookcameoutfiveyearsagoandinthetimesincethen,I'vetalkedinclassroomsaroundtheworld,intheU.S.,theU.K.,Australia,Germany,HongKongaboutTiananmen,andit'sbeenreallyinterestingbecauseI'veseeninthequestionsthatmainlandstudentshaveaskedalmostashift.Atthebeginning,studentsareoftenquitedefensiveandtheywouldaskquestionslike,"Allcountriesdothingslikethis,"whatmakesChinaanydifferent?"Orsometimestheywouldask,"China'seconomicsuccesstoday"isbasedonwhatthegovernmentdidbackthen,"surelyitwasworthit."ButrecentlyI'veseenanotherlineofquestioningwhichIthinkisveryinterestingandI'mgoingtoreadyouaquotefromastudentwhoaskedaquestioninSydneywhosaid,"Whydowehavetolookbacktothistimeinhistory?"Whydoyouthinkitwillbehelpfultocurrent"andnowadaysChina,"especiallyouryounggeneration?"Doyouthinkitcouldbeharmful"towhattheChinesegovernmentcallstheharmonioussociety?"Well,isn'tthatinteresting?TheChinesegovernmenthassucceededinmakingknowledgedangerous.It'ssucceededinseedingthatideathatknowledgecanhaveapriceandthatpricecouldbetoohigh.IthinkLiuXiaobo'swordsaremoretruethanevertodayasweseethesenewmethodsofsocialcontrollikethesocialcreditsystem,andweseethepriceofmemorybecomingmoreandmoreconcrete,andweseesilencespreadingthroughchannelsincludingWesternones.Recently,someofthemostpoignant

actsofmemorythatwe'veseenemergingfromChinahaveactuallybeencompletelywordless.Idon'tknowhowmanyofyouhaveseenit,butthere'sthisastonishing11-secondvideothatemergedthisyearofayoungmanre-enactingtheTankManphotographintheBeijingMilitaryMuseum.Sohe'sstandinginfrontofarealChinesearmytank,andhe'sholdingtwobags,oneplasticbagineitherhand.Nowordsatall.Onthe26thanniversary,anactivistcalledDuYanlinwenttoTiananmenSquareandheopenedablackumbrellaonthesquareandhewasimmediatelydetainedforpickingquarrelsandstirringuptrouble.Ithinkitjustshowsthatinatimewhenwordshavebecomedangerous,eventhelackofwordsnolongeroffersanyprotection.Andjustasafinalthought,Ijustwantedtounderlineonething:I'mnotanactivist,I'majournalistbutIthinkthesuccessofBeijing'sstate-imposedamnesiameansthatanypublicdiscussionofTiananmenhasbecomeachallengetoBeijing'snarrative.Becauseofthis,there'snotreallyanywaytotalkaboutTiananmenandnotchallengeamnesia.SoanyonewhotalksaboutTiananmen,whoremembersitpublicly,whowritesaboutitalot,bydefaultyoubecomeseenasanactivist.AndIwouldalsoliketopointoutthatIthinkthisreflectsBeijing'ssuccessinsettingtheparametersofdiscussion,evenwellbeyonditsborders.Thankyou.-[Rowena]Thankyousomuch,Louisa.Ithink,asLouisamentionedthere'salltheseeffortstomakesurethatweforget,andwewouldnolongerrememberbutthefactthatsomanyofyouareheretoday,yourpresence,alreadyshowedthatwecollectivelyrefusetoforgetandwestillremember.Isawsomanyfaces,peopleprobablyIonlywillseeeachtimewhenthereisaTiananmeneventandmaybeforoveradecade.Andpeopleoftenaskme,"Howcanyoustillcontinueafterallthis?"andIthinkit'sthesefacesthatIalwaysrememberwhenstrugglingindarknessbecauseIknowthatIamnotalone.Somanypeopleactuallyaredoingthesamethingintheirownwaytorememberandtorefusetoforget.Andthebeautyoftoday,Ithink,istodayweareabletoseesomanyofthepeoplemaybeinthepast,yousawthattheywerestrugglingthere,theywereimprisoned,theywerebeingharassed,theywerebeingtorturedandatthattimewewerenotabletotellthemhowmuchwecare.Buttoday,weareinthesameroom,inthesamespace,sharedspaceandouridentitiesaredefinedassomeonewhorefusedtoforget.AndonthisnoteIwanttointroduceournextspeakerDr.WangDan,whogothisPhDfromHarvard,here.Ofcourseyouallknowthat,in1989,hetoppedthe21most-wantedlistandhewasimprisonedandlaterexiled.IrememberthefirsttimeImanagedtogotoBeijingandvisithismom,andshekeptmefordinnerandshetoldmethatshealwaysrememberedtheimagewhenhewascarryinghisschoolbagandbikingtoschoolandshealwayswishedthatimagewouldappearinthewindowagain.Thatwasmorethanadecadeagothatshesaidthattome,andnow,WangDanstillcannotreturntoChinabuthe'sherewithustoday,andhe'snowthefounderandthedirectorfortheDialogueChina.He'shopingthatwecancontinuetoengageindialogueswithChina.Let'swelcomeDr.WangDan..-[Dr.Wang]Ineedyoutopardonme,toallowmetosaythatI'mnotfeelingverywellandsittinghereismakingmemore'cause,forme,likegoingbacktohome.It'sreallygreattogobacktotheFairbankCenter,whereIgrewuphere,notphysicallybutspiritually,andIthankMichaelandRowenatomakethispossible.It'sveryimportanttohavethisevent,torememberwhathappenedin1989.Icanstillrememberthe10thanniversaryof1989,alsohappenedatHarvard.WehadamuchbiggereventinthePresident'shall.Withabonus

speaker,NancyPelosiandavideoofMartinLutherKingJr.attended.After20years,somanyinstitutionsaremakingmespeak,butIhavetosaysomethinghere.Duetothetimelimit,Iwillfocusonlyononequestion.Thisisahypotheticalquestion,whichis:ifthe1989DemocracyMovementhadsucceeded,whatcouldChinalookliketoday?AlsothisquestionIthinkfirstrequiresustodefine,whatissuccessforthe1989democracy?BecauseIthinkoneofthebiggestmisunderstandingspeoplehaveofthe1989DemocracyMovementisexpressedbyaquestionlikethis:"Ifyou",theopponenttome,"ifyoutakethepowerofthePresidentofChina,"wouldyouhavebeenbetterthanChineseCommunistParty"orXiJinping?"Ithinkthisisreallythewrongquestion.Ican'timagineIcouldbetheleaderofChina,Ievencannotcontrolmyclassmates.Sothisishardtochallenge,it'sinfactcompletelybogus.Becausein1989,thestudentsnevermentionedreplacingtheCommunistPartyorproposedtakingpowerourselves;andregardlessofhowthe1989DemocracyMovementwouldhavedeveloped,therewasnopossibilityofstudentleadersbecomingnationalleaders.Successin1989,forus,meansachievingourobjectives.Whatwerethose?Thepoliticalpositionofthe1989DemocracyMovementwerefirstproposedinwhatwecalledTheSevenProngsPetitionthatstudentrepresentatives,includingmemyselfsubmittedtotheleadersoftheleadersoftheCCP.ThoseSevenProngsrequirementincludedre-evaluationoftheheroesandachievementofformerGeneralSecretaryHuYaobang,andcompletelynegatingthecampaignto,so-calledeliminatespiritualpollutionandthecampaignagainstthebourgeoisliberalization.Andthepublicationofthesalaryandallotherformsofincomeofstateleaders,etcetera,etcetera.Thatwasourgoal.Ifweachievedthosegoals,thatissuccess.Sothere'snocategorylikebeinganationalleader.However,Ibelievethesuccessofthe1989DemocracyMovementshouldbemeasuredagainsttwoveryimportantconditionsraisedduringtheMay13thstudenthungerstrike.Becausethehungerstriketurnedfromthewholestudentmovementintoapopularmassmovement,orwhatwecalledDemocracymovement.Andfromthefullforceofnationwidesupport,phonecallsdemandingthatthegovernmentacceptthedemandsofstudentsintheirhungerstrike,thisimpliesthat,ifthe1989DemocracyMovementhadsucceeded,thegovernmentwouldhaveautomaticallyacceptedthesetwodemandsbythehungerstrikestudents.Somepeoplecriticizedourstudentmovementasveryradical.Let'ssay,iftheseradical3,000studentssacrificedtheirlivesinTiananmenSquareonlywantedtwoachievements,weonlyhadtworequirements--ifthegovernmenthadtakenthosetworequirements,ofcoursewewouldwithdrawfromTiananmenSquare.Andthetwodemandsisone-weekdemandthatthegovernmentpromptlyengageinaconcretedialogueonequalfootingwiththedialoguededicationofBeijing'suniversityandotheruniversities.Thisisadialogue...that'swhyIcalledournewthink-tank"DialogueChina",westillhavethisdreamofdialogue.We'rejustaskingfordialogue!Weusedourlivestoaskfordialogue.Isthisradical?Andnow,seconddemandis,wedemandthatthegovernmentfairlyevaluatethisstudentmovementandaffirmitsasapatrioticandademocraticstudentmovement,notcriminal.WehopedthatthegovernmentcanchangetheirtoneintheApril26theditorial.Don'tseeusasacriminal,wearepatriotic,wehopeourcountrycanbebetter.Isthisrequirementreallyradical?Sowhensome,theycriticizedstudentsofthattimeasradical,isthatfair?Youcanthinkaboutit.Ofcourse,Ihavemyanswers.Butdiscussingthequestionof,"Whatif1989DemocracyMovementhadsucceeded?"thereforedemandsdiscussingtheeffectonChina'sfutureifthegovernmenthadbegunadialoguewiththestudentsandhadaffirmedthestudentmovementaspatrioticinnature.Ifeelit

wouldhavehadthefollowingthreemaineffectsiftheyacceptedourdemands.First,if1989DemocracyMovementhadsucceeded,thereformistfactionsweseeinthepartyrepresentedbyformerGeneralSecretaryZhaoZiyangwouldcertainlyhavebeenfortified.It'scommonknowledgethatZhaoZiyangwastheseniorCCPleaderwhowasmostinclinedtowardmarketeconomicreformsandalsothemostopen-mindedleader.IfZhaoZiyanghadgreaterpolicymakingauthority,IbelievehewouldsurelyhaveleadChinatoundertakemoreprofoundmarketreformsineconomicaffairs.Andthistrendcouldbeseeninthebankruptcylawinitiatedin1988.Inotherwords,if1989studentmovementhadsucceeded,Chinawouldnothavefalleninsocialinstabilitylikehashappenedtoday.Rather,wouldhavesteppedupthepaceofeconomicreformwithevengreaterresults.Secondly,if1989DemocracyMovementhadsucceeded,thepoliticalreformwhichlaunchedin1988wouldhavebeeneasedforwardwiththestrongersupportofthepopularviewespeciallythepartoffreedomofthispress.Thatistosay,economicreformwouldhavebeenpromotedinabetterenvironmentofsupervisionbypublicopinions.Today,eventheChineseCommunistPartyacknowledgedthatexpandingthepowerofsupervisionbypublicopinionistheonlywaytoeffectivelycontainthespreadofcorruptionthroughoutthecountry.Soifexpansionoffreedomspeechhadbegunbackin1989,corruptionwouldnothavespreadthroughoutthewholeChinasystemasithastoday.Certainly,if1989DemocracyMovementhadsucceeded,itwouldhavecreatedamodelforthedialoguebetweenstateandsocietywhichissoimportant,notforthepast,evenforthefutureofChina.Infact,thepoliticalreportofCCP's13thNationalCongress,draftedunderanotheropen-mindedhigh-levelofficial's,BaoTong's,leadership,establishedconsultationandadialoguealwaystothepublicasthefocalorientationofpoliticalreform.Andwhenthestudentscalledfordialogue,theywereeffectivelyechoingthisdemandforpoliticalreform.Intoday'sChina,theprospectofthegovernmentandthepeoplebeingofoneheartandmindhasvanished,andthepeoplehavelostallconfidenceinthegovernment.Theyarecollectivelygivinguptheirresponsibilityforthiscountry,andtheythinkthegovernmentalsogivesuptheresponsibilityforthecountry,too.Thisisthemainreasonwhysomanysocialconflictsautomaticallyadoptaviolentmethod.Whenreformbecomesagamebetweengovernmentandasociety,adialoguebetweenastateandsocietybecomesafundamentalsafeguardforsocialstability.Onlythencanthetwosidesmakeanefforttoensureasmoothandsteadytransformation.Taiwan'sexperienceprovidedabiasedreferenceofthis.Soifthe1989DemocracyMovementhadsucceeded,wecanimaginethatitwouldhaveprovidedamuch,muchbetterenvironmentforreformforChina.AndIthinkthisisthequestionIwon'tdiscussduetothetimelimit--justfocusonthisquestion,butbeforeIstopIhavesomethingtosayhere:personallyIwanttosaythatwhathappenedin1989hadacriticaleffectonmypersonallife.Mainlymanifestedinthefactthathavingthishistory,therearesomethingsnotleftentirelytomychoicetoday,suchastheidealofpromotingsocialprogressorlivinguptocertainexpectations.Asanordinarystudent,Icouldhavechosenapersonallifeorapubliclife,butnowIhavenochoicebuttoliveunderthepubliceye.It'shardtosaywhetherthisismygoodorbadfortune,butIfeelIcanonlyfaceandacceptthis.Furthermore,ifthesamethingweretohappenagain,IbelieveIwouldstillnotturnbackbecauseembracingsocialidealswhenoneisyoungisnotamatterofarationalchoice.Itcanalmostbeconsideredasanemotionalnecessity,anecessarychoice.Ihavetosaythatthisemotionisreallygoodandalsotime-sensitive.Whenoneisolder--asoldasme--it'sverydifficulttoexperiencethepassionofyouth.Humanlifeisreallylimited

andIwouldnotgiveuptheopportunitytodrawonmylifeexperiencetothefutureofmycountry,andmysocialidealsevenifonlytemporarily.That'swhyIhaveabsolutelynoregretforthepriceIhavepaid,tohavewaitedsevenyearsinprisonandnowcannotgobacktomycountry,probablyforever.Ithinkthisismyownlifechoice,andIwillcontinuetogoforwardwithoutanyhesitation.Thankyouverymuch.-[Rowena]IrememberinthoseyearswhenIwasworkingonmybookwithWangDanandmanyoftheexiles,onethinginourgroupdiscussiononedaywhenwewerehavingourshareddiscussionandweweresayingbeingidealisticinChinameansyouareveryselfishbecausewechosewhatwehavetodoforourcountrybutourfamily,mymom,hismomcannotchoosenottobeourfamilymembers.Thepricethatyouhavetopayforyouridealism.AndWangDanmadetheverygoodpoint,importantpointearlier:in1989westudentswerenotlookingforrevolution.Wewerenotlookingforregimechange.Twobestexamples,WangDanmentionedthesevendemandsonthedayofHuYaobang'sfuneraloutsidethePeople'sGreatHall,thethreestudentswerekneelingthesevendemands,kneelingdown,beggingthegovernmenttocomeoutandlistentothem.Sothat'soneexample.Thesecondexample,ofcourse:thethreemenwhothrewpaintonMao'sportraitandimmediatelyafterwardstheyweretakentothepolicebythestudents.Thestudentsturnedtheminbecausetheywantedtoshowthatwearenottryingtogiveyoutrouble,wearejustyourloyalkidshopingthatyouwilllistentous.AndIinterviewedoneofthesementwomonthsagoinIndianapolis.Hehadbeenbeatensobadlyhetotallylosthismind,he'snowmentallydisabled,hedoesn'thear.Heonlycouldsayafewincompletesentencesbutthere'sonesentence,hesaiditagainandagainanditwasstuckinmymind.Hekeptrepeatingthesamesentence:"Thisisnotdonebythepeople."Thisisnotdonebythestudents."AndIdidn'tunderstandwhathewastalkingaboutsoIwentbacktomyarchivematerials.Itturnedoutthatthere'sabigphotoinTiananmenSquarethatthey,whenthestudentstookthemtoreturnthemtotothepolice,thestudentshadabigbannerinbothChineseandEnglish:"Thisisnotdonebythestudents."Thisisnotdonebythepeople."Meaningthatthesearetroublemakers,butwearenot.Wearejustyourloyalkids.Weareonthesideofthegovernment.Ifthestudentshadknownthatjust10dayslater200,000armysoldiersequippedwithAK-47andtankswouldbecoming,maybetheywouldhavechangedtheirmindtoturnthesemenin.Butthere'sjusttwoexamplestoshowthattheywerenotlookingforrevolution.Ournextspeaker,ProfessorJeffWasserstrom,hehasbeenverysupportivehelpingtheyoungergenerationandhelpingustounderstandanddothisworkonChina.He'sofcourseanimportantprofessorinthefield,aChancellor'sProfessorofHistoryattheUniversityofCalifornia,Irvineandalsohehadpublishedthisimportantbook,"ToUnderstandChinainthe21stCentury",that'sthetitleofthebook.Let'swelcomeJeff.Thanks..-[Jeff]Sothisisalsoahomecomingforme,IgotmyMaster'shereatHarvardandwasinvitedbackthefirsttimetogiveapublictalkwasrightafterfinishingadissertationatBerkeleyonthehistoryofstudentmovementsandtospeakon1989,aneventwithWu'erkaixi,anotherofthestudentleadersthen..IfeelveryhumbledandIfinditdifficulttothinkofhowtospeakafterhearingtheseinspiringtalksbypeoplewho'velived,anddocumented,andpushedbackagainstmemorysomuch.I'mgoingtotrytotakeadifferenttakeonthisthrough,ofallthings,someworksoffiction.Oneoftheeventsthathasstayed

withmealotinthinkingthrough1989'smeaningwasin2003,IwasinvitedtospeakatHeidelbergCollege,aliberalartscollegethatwashavingabondingexperiencefortheincomingfreshmen.Theywereallwatchingthefilm"TheGateofHeavenlyPeace",whichisaninspiringfilmabout1989thatIhadtheprivilegetobeaconsultanton.AndtheyaskedmeifIwouldcomeandspeaktothefreshmeninakindoforientationaboutthatandIsaidyesimmediately.Thentheycalledmeaweekbeforetheeventandsaid,"Bytheway,"thestudentswhoareincomingclass"arealsoreadinganoveltogether"asasharedexperience."Thatnovelis'BraveNewWorld',"Ihopeyoucantalkaboutthataswell."Andmyfirstthoughtwas,"Damn,"Whycouldn'tithavebeen1984?"Aswe'veheard,"1984"isthebookthatintroducedtheideaofamemoryhole,whichiswheretheChineseCommunistPartyhassoughttoputTiananmenMen.It'sinNewspeak,allkindsofthingsaboutthecontrolofmemory.Orwell's1984describedthereinofoppressionbeing"thebootonthefaceoverandoveragain."Allofthesethingscometomindwhenwethinkaboutthesuppressionof1989andtheofficialeffortstoforgetit,tomakepeopleforgetit.ButthenIread"BraveNewWorld",whichIhadn'treadsinceateenager.Ididn'trememberanythingaboutitfromreadingasateenagerexcepttherewasthisdrugcalledsomathatmadeyoufeelgoodallthetime.AndthereweretheseverydistractingsomewhatpornographicmoviesyouwatchedcalledFeelies.ButIrereadit,andIthoughtaboutthisandIthoughtaboutwhathadhappenedinChinasince1989andhowtheChineseCommunistPartyinparthadstayedinpower.Orwell'svisionwasthebootontheface,Huxley'svisionwasrulebydistractionandplayingtopeoples'pleasuresandhedonism.Andinmanyways,since1989theChineseCommunistPartyhasstayedinpowerinpartbyacombinationofthesekindsofthings,blended.I'mnottheonlyonewho'sthoughtaboutthesetogether,asfarbackasthe1950s,Huxleywassaying,actuallyinsomepartsoftheworldyouseeamix-and-matchofthesetwotechniques,ofOrwell,hisformerstudentatEton,andhisownvisionforthat.Sothatchangedmywayofthinkingabout1989andpost-1989,andIthinkit'sstilltherethewayinwhich,tosomedegree,peopleinChinaarekeptinplace.Peopleresistinallkindsofinteresting,daringways,butwhentheydon'tsomeofitisdistractionandhedonism,materialism,consumerism,aswellasfear.Then,in2014,IgotwrappedupinandexcitedbytheumbrellamovementinHongKongandonceagaintherewasanOrwellbookthatwasbroughtup.Thestudents,whentheywereabouttoproteststartedreadinganOrwellbook.Butnot"1984","AnimalFarm"."AnimalFarm",ifyouboilitdown,it'softenseenasacritiqueofStalinismbutactuallywhatitisinmanywaysisanallegoryaboutacaseinwhichyouhavearevolutionthat'ssupposedtodoawaywitholdformsofoppressionandthenthenewpeopleinpowerarejustlikewhattheoldpeopleinpowerwere.Soinpart,forHongKong,itwasaftertheendofBritishcolonialism,wehadaneworderanditactuallyseemsverymuchlikeanewkindofcolonialism,thistimefromBeijingratherthanfromLondon.I'vebeenthinkingabout"AnimalFarm"alotsincethen.Itwasn'tonethatwasonmyradarscreen,andI'vebeenthinkingaboutitwith1989andactuallyasfarbackas1919andIthinkaboutitwithwhat'sgoingoninChinarightnowincludingthethingsthatMichaelbroughtup.Xinjian,Imean,oneofthethingsthattheChineseCommunistrevolutionwassupposedtodowasdoawaywiththekindofimperialismthatwasassociatedwiththeJapaneseinvasionofChina,inwhichtheJapanesehadsaidinManchuria,"Thesepeoplearebackward,"tobecomemodern,theyneedustobecivilizingthem,"theyneedustoberemakingthem,reformingthem",andinmanywaysthat'snowwhatBeijingissayingtoXinjianandTibetiswhattheJapaneseempirewassayingtoparts

ofChinaandotherpartsofAsiaatthetime:"Wewanttoremakeyou".SothisisacaseinwhichtheChineseCommunistPartyhasbecomelikethepigswhotookoverthefarmin"AnimalFarm",amirrorimage,insomeways,ofwhatthevillainsare,I'vebeenthinking.In1989therewasastrongelementofthat,aswell,actually,eventhoughit'snottypicallybroughtup.OneofthepostersthestudentsbroughtupshowedDengXiaopingasakindofempress-dowagerfigureoperatingfrombehindthescenes,controllingpower.Thesuggestionwasthat'showtheoldChinawassupposedtobe,thenewChinawasnotsupposedtobelikethat.WhenIwasona25thanniversaryofTiananmenpanelwithWangChaoba,anotherofthestudentleaders,likeWangDanshesaidonethingthatpeopledon'talwaysappreciateaboutwhatleaduptotheprotestsof1989wasthedisgustthatpeoplefeltwhenDengXiaopingpurgedordemotedHuYaobang.It'salwaysthoughtHuYaobanghadsupportedstudentmovements,hewasputdown.Shesaidpartofitwashewassaying,"Ihaveachosensuccessor,"butnowI'mjustchangingthat."ThatwasathrowbacktoMao,whokeptchanginghissuccessors.Onceagain,thiswassupposedtobeanewerabuttherulerswereactingsurprisinglyliketheoldera.Again,itwasthekindof"AnimalFarm"syndrome.Youcangobackasfar--thisisthe100thanniversaryoftheMay4thmovement.May4thwasaboutallkindsofthings:itwasacritiqueofimperialism,allkindsofthings,butamongotherthingsitwasalsoasensethatarevolutionhadtakenplacethatwassupposedtochangeeverything,butinmanywaysthesamepatternswererecurring.The1919protestswerewhatstartedtheMay4thmovement,butmovementsalsooftenhaveprecursors.Before1989therewas1986.Beforetheumbrellamovementin2014therewasaprotestin2012.Beforethe1919protestinChina,therewere1915protestsinChina.ThoseprotestswereinpartaboutdemandsthatJapanwasmakingonthewarlordsandthewarlordsweregivinginto.ButitwasalsotheyearthatYuanShikai(seeifthissoundsfamiliartoanybodythinkingabouttoday),YuanShikai,whowasthePresidentofaRepublicofChinathatwassupposedtobecompletelyunliketheoldordersethimselfupasanEmperorwhocouldruleforlife.SoIthink,ifwethinkaboutsomeofthefrustrationsthatshowupinthesemanydifferentstages,from1919upto2019when,atTsinghuaUniversity,XuZhangruncomeunderattackforbeingacriticalintellectual,talkinginpartaboutXiJinpingreplicatingthepatternsthatweresupposedtobepartofanoldera,includingdoingawaywithtermlimits,nowmostrecentlywehavethetalkofsendingdownyouth,allofthesethingsthatseemthrowbackstoatimethatwassupposedtobegone.It'skindofoddtosay,"Well,"whyamIonlytalkingaboutbooksby"BritishwriterswhowenttoEton"aswaysofunderstandingChina?"Butyoudon'tneedtolookoutside,because"AnimalFarm",bymylights,isthegreatnovellaofthe20thcenturythattalksaboutpoliticswritteninEnglish.ThegreatnovellawrittenaboutpoliticswritteninChinesewas"TheTrueStoryofAhQ"byLuXun,apersonoftheMay4thgeneration,apersonthatthestudentsof1989sometimescited,oneChinesewriterwhosometimeswillstillbecitedinHongKong.And"TheTrueStoryofAhQ",partofitisaboutarevolutionthatdidn'tendupchangingthingsotherthanwhoexactlywasbullyingordinarypeople.AndsoIthinkwecanseeinthiskindoftrend,andit'snotjust,ofcourse,inChinathatyouseethiskindoffrustrationwitharevolutionthatclaimstobeaboutcreatingsomethingthat'scompletelynewbutfallsintothesebadoldpatternsofthat.YoucanthinkofthisasarecurringcryofChinesespeakingoutagainstaflawinanorder,ofteninanefforttobealoyaloppositionbutfindingitimpossibletohavespaceforalittleoppositionfromthedaysofChenDuxiu

andotherfoundersoftheNewCulturemovementontoXuZhangrun.Thankyouforyourattention.-[Rowena]Thankyousomuch,Jeff.IthinktheworstthingisChinaisnotjusthavingalloftheseproblemsthataresimilarinhistory,butalsotheCCPhasbeenexportingmanyofitsvaluesandinfluenceandinterferenceoutsideChinawithitsso-calledmodel,Chinamodelofgovernance,ahybridofstatecapitalismandauthoritariancontrolandit'smoreaboutmoneyandpowerandnothingmatters.Let'shopethatwewillnotletthatwinover,andwewillkeepourintellectualfreedom.Sowewouldbeableto,ifanyofyouhaveanycommentsoranyshorterquestions,wecandothat,otherwise,shallweopenthefloor?BecauseIseewehavelotsofveryinterestingpeopleintheaudiencewhowouldhavequestions.Shallweopenthefloor,orwouldanyoneliketojumponeachother?Okay,good.Solet'sopenthefloorforQandA,then.Aswementionedearlier,noneedtoidentifywhoyouare.IfyouaresentbytheCCP,yes,maybe.Yes.-[AudienceMember]Thankyouallverymuch.Somyquestionisabout,couldtherebeanotherstudentprotestthathappenedinTiananmen?Notsomuchtalkingaboutthemassacrebutcouldthereevenbeaprotesthappeningagainthinkingthat,rightnow,thecensorshiptechnologiesinChinahavebecomesoadvancedbut,ontheotherhand,thereareprotestslikethestudentsprotestingforlaborrights...Yeah,so:couldtheTiananmenprotestshappenagain?Thankyou.-[Rowena]Yes,Jeff?-[Jeff]Yeah,sure.SoIthinktheChineseCommunistPartyhasdevelopedverysophisticatedmethodstotrytominimizethechanceofthathappeningandparticularlywhatthey'vetriedtopreventisanykindofprotestthatspreadsfromonesocialgrouptoanother.There'sbeenaclampdownverymuchonthosestudentsbecause,inpart,they'retryingtoconnecttoworkers.ThereareprotestsinChinaallthetime,andtheprotests,someofthemaretoleratedifthey'reinonelocale,ifthey'reonesocialgroup.Sotherecertainlyareprotests,butthere'saveryspecificone.Sowebothneedtothinkaboutthefactofthecreativitythatpeopledotogetaroundcensorshipandotherthings.Onethingwedidn'tmention,onekindofprotestthat'shappenedrecentlyisfeministprotest,includingtheMeToomovement,whenyouarenotallowedtousethewords"metoo"ontheweb,they'vestartedputting"rice"-"bunny","metoo".Sothereisthisgreat...It'snotthatthedesiretoprotesthasgoneawaybuttheintensitywithwhichthingsarestampeddownuponwhenevertheyseemtobespreadingissomethingthat,sofar--youneversaynever,becausetheonethingI'velearnedstudyingstudentmovementsis,beforebigstudentmovementshappen,peopleareoftensaying,"Thisgroup,"thisgenerationwouldn'tleadaprotestmovement".WesawthatinAmericaayearandahalfago:"thisgeneration'sabunchofselfish"post-millennialsjustlookingattheircellphones",andthenwehadthebiggestyouth-ledprotestsindecadesaftertheParklandshootings.SoneverwriteoffagenerationbutIthinktheoddsareincrediblystackedagainstthingsrightnow.-[Louisa]AndIthinkthere'salsoaneconomicargumentagainst,thatsomanyyoungChinesearesofocusedonmakingenoughmoneytogetmarried,youknow,findingajob,

buyingahouse,andtheyrealizethatgettinginvolvedinpoliticsisnotgoingtohelpyouachieveanyofthosegoals.Ithinkpeopleeventalkaboutitasakindofeconomicstabilitymaintenance,thateverybody'senergiesarefocusedinthisonedirectionandagain,probablythat'salessonthattheCommunistPartyreally...It'smanagedtoimposereallywellonyoungpeoplethatpoliticalmobilizationandpoliticalprotestreallydoesn'tpay.SoIthinkthatalsowouldbesomethingthatactsagainstanotherstudentmovementanytimesoon.Andcertainly,ifyoutalkto,asI'msureyouhave,youngstudentsinChina,peoplejustaren'tthatinterestedinpolitics.They'remuchmoreinterestedinbuyingthenextiPhoneorhowtofindajob,howtofindanapartment,wheretofindahusbandorwife.ThosearetheconcernsthatIthinkobsesspeopletoday.-[Wang]Istillhavemyhopeonyounggenerations,actually,becauseIbelievedemocracyisnowhumannature.Alsobasedonhumannatureofayounggeneration.WhenItaughtinTaiwan,IhadthechancetomeetalotofstudentscomingfrommainlandChina,andIrealizedthatonethingisreallyinteresting:everybodycametothefirstday,theygrabatable,andtheyhaveaccesstotheinternet,theykeyinthekeyword,"June4th"or"Tiananmenmassacre."Imean,there'sonecharacteristicofyoungergenerationswhichiscuriosity.Well,curiosityalwayskillstotalitarianismifyoukeepthiskindofcuriosity,youwanttoknowthetruth.That'stheyounggeneration'scharacter.Asoldasme,I'velostallmycuriosityIalreadyknowalotofthings,buttheyounggeneration?SoIbelieveintheyounggeneration'shumannature.SoIstillhavemyhope.-[Rowena]HaoJian,doyouhaveanythingtoadd?-[Hao]Yeah,ifyoutalkaboutthedemonstrationonTiananmenSquare,Icannotfindanything.InChina,thesurveillanceiseverywhereandwithfacialrecognitionsystem.ButIbelievethatordinarypeoplewanttokeeptheirrights,keeptheirmoney,keeptheirfreedom.Infact,Ibelieveifyoureadsomeinternet,orWeChat,orWeibo,Ibelievethatcivilmovementhappenseveryday.Butnotademonstration.Notthemovementasyouimagine.Evenincollegeoruniversitytherearesomestudents,theywanttomakesomeunioninthefactory.Theysay,"Oh,IbelieveinMarxism".Buttheiractionhasbeenforbidden.It'snotaboutMarxismorcapitalism.SoIbelieveweshouldchangeourthinking:notsocrowdedademonstration,maybetheordinarypeopleeverywhere,eveninChina.And,bytheway,wewanttokeepthememoryaboutJune4th.AlotofpeoplewhotalkaboutJune4thoninternetorinWeChatusemetaphorsorambiguouslanguage.We'vecreatedalotoforsomethinglike---[Rowena]May35th.-[Hao]So,Imustemphasizefightingishappeningeveryday.-[Rowena]Ithinktheprice...peoplearetryingto,thepriceishigherandhigher.It'snotlikewetalkabout'86and'87,after'86,'87,thestudentmovementafterHuYaobangwasousted,thenthere'sstillanotherchancein'89forstudentstocomeout.Butthepoliticalenvironmentistotallychanged,youseeallthoseMarxismstudygroupswhotrytosupporttheworkers,recently,inBeijingandtheyhavebeenarrested.Andtheordinarycitizens

whotrytocommemorate,forexample,thefourmenwhohavetheliquorlabelsandtheyalsohavebeensentenced,soyouhavetopayaheavypricewhenyoutrytoorganizeallkindsofevents.Andanotherthingis,Ithinkthatiftheykeepdoingthis,nexttime,ifsomethinglikeTiananmenhappens,itwouldnotbeoutoflove,outofhope,outoffaith,butitwouldbeoutofanger,outoffrustration,andoutofgrievances.Maybethat'ssomethingthatwouldbereallysad,ifthey--yeah,sure.-[Wang]CanIaddonemorething?Ithinkyoungergenerationchangesveryquick.IknowalotofpeoplefeeldisappointedabouttheyounggenerationnowadaysinChinabutthinkaboutwhathappenedin1989.In1987,whenIenrolledinBeijingUniversity,alotofmyclassmatesjustplayedcards,preparedfortheEnglishexam,wantedtogototheUnitedStates.Evenme,IgotoBeijingcitytolearnbreakingdance.Butthen,1989,everybodygotosituation.That'stheyoungergeneration.-[Rowena]IdebatedthiswithWangDanalongtimeago,aboutthisfourthings,playingMahjong,tryingtogettofu,anddancingin1989.That'swhyhe's---[Wang]Don'taskmetodance,Ialreadyforget.-[Rowena]That'swhyhe'salwayshopefulabouttheyoungergeneration.ButIthinktheregionhaslearnedabiglesson,too,after1989.Soin'89whenallthecollegedoorswerelockedstudentsstillfoundawaytogooutsothentheytriedtomakesurethenexttime,whenallthedoorsareopen,theywouldstillchoosenottogooutandprotest.Iftheyprotest,itwouldbedefendingtheirgovernment.Sothat'ssomethingthatIthinkIwouldliketokeepinmind,too,aboutthechangingpoliticalcontextaswellasthewaytheyoungergeneration,thevaluestheyhave.Evenwiththat,Iamstill,long-term,optimistic.IagreewithJeff,everytimewhenweseesomethingbighappen,bigchangeshappen,thedaybefore,peoplewillsaythatit'simpossible.Butthenwhensomethingbighappensthenextmorningonthestreet,everybodyistellingyouthatthat'sinevitable.IstudyhistoryandIbelieveinhistory,andIthinkhistoryisonourside.Eddie.-[Eddie]Youjustblewmycoverbysayingmyname.-[Jeff]Youdon'tlooklikeayoungChinesestudentwhomightgetintrouble.-[Eddie]Yeah,I'mprobablyokay.SoIhaveaquestionforWangDan.Ifirstmetyouin1988whenyouwereleadingthoseamazingsalonsatPekingUniversitywithanotherpersonwhoisaheroofmine,FangLizhi,butyouweredoinganexercise,"ifwehadsucceeded,whatwouldthathavelookedlike,whatwouldhavehappened?"SoIwannaaskadifferentquestion:iftherehadnotbeenacrackdownonJune3rd,June4th,whatwouldhavehappened?Mymemoryisthat,bylateMayofthatyeartherewerefewerstudents,certainlyfromBeijingmanystudentsweregoingbacktocampus.Yes,therewerestudentscomingfromoutsideofBeijingtohavetheexperienceinthecapitalbutthatthemovementwaslosingsteam...Iremember,Iwasaforeigncorrespondent,manypeopleincludingmyselfleftChinainlateMayfinally,togetsomevacationaftercoveringthemovementsincetheendofAprilbecauseitseemedtobewindingdown,itseemedtobelosingsteam.

Thenthegovernmentsendsintroops,unarmedfirst,thatbringseveryoneinBeijingouttothestreets,thenextnighttheycomeinwiththetanks.Italmostseemedthattheyweretryingtocreatearebellionthatcouldbesuppressedinordertoreconcilethepowerstrugglethatwashappening.Anyway,I'mgoingontoolong,butmyquestionis:iftherehadnotbeenthecrackdown,whatwouldhavehappened?Whatwouldthestudentshavedone?Howlongwouldithavegoneon?-[WangDan]Well,sinceyouknowme,youknewthatintheendofMaywealreadyproposedwithdrawingfromTiananmenSquare.But,Ihavetosay,inreality,evenotherstudentleaderslikeChaiLingorFengCongdeorLiLualreadyacceptedourproposal.IdonotthinkwecanreallyaskthestudentstowithdrawfromTiananmenSquare.It'sreallydifficult.It'snotaboutthestudentsofBeijing.MostoftheBeijingstudentswerealreadybacktocampus,ourhome,butwehadmoreandmorestudentscomefromalloverthecountry,otherprovinces.TheydidnotwanttowithdrawfromTiananmenSquare.They'djustarrived,theirfirstday!Alotofstudents,justforthefirstday...Soit'salmostimpossible.Idon'tthinkit'sfairtocriticizestudentleaderslikeChaiLinglikedtorejecttowithdrawbecauseIknowit'salmostimpossible.But,toansweryourquestion,ifwehadthischancetowithdrawfromtheTiananmenSquare,asourplan,wewentbacktocampustocontinuetodowhatwecalledcampusdemocracy,ordemocracyincampuswhichmeans,formemyself,myonlyhopeisthat,ifwecamebacktocampuswewillkeepwiderequirementsthatallowustoelectourownstudent'sassociationleader.That'sourrequirementifwecomebacktothecampus.But,again,Idon'tthinkstudentscanbepersuadedbecausethegovernment,theyneveracceptedourtworequirements.Idon'tknowifthisansweredyourquestion?Just,democracyoncampus,that'sournextstepifwecanrestorefromcampusgrounds.-[Rowena]Anyonewouldliketoadd?Okay,Ithinkalsothere'salso,Iknow,Eddie,wetalkalotwhenIinvitedyoutomyclassandwementionedthatthat'sapossibility,iftheyhadrejoined,whatwouldhavehappened.Butthere'ssomerecentdiscussionsbyXuXiaokangandChenXiaoyaandthentheysaidthat,accordingtosomeoftheunknownsourcesanddocuments,andactuallyDengXiaopenghadalreadymadeuphismindtohavethecrackdownaslongasApril,that'srightaftertheApril26theditorial.Soitreallydoesn'tmatterwhatthestudentsweregoingtodo,theyweredeterminedthatthearmywasgoingtocomeinandIhavebeenaskingforsources,butofcoursetheyarenotsureyet.Butthatcouldbeanotherpointthatitreallydoesn'tmatterwhattheyhaddecidedtodo,thestudentshaddecidedtodo,whatwouldhavechanged,becauseitlookslikeDengwasveryupsetaboutwhat'sgoingon,evenasearlyasApril.-[Wang]Ihaveonemoreopinionhere,it'sIthinktherewillhavebeenacrackdownanywayevenifthosestudentswithdrewfromTiananmenSquare.WhatisApril26theditorial?It's,backtothattime,thegovernmentalreadymadetheirmindtocrackdownsoifwewithdraw,maybethey'renotsobloodybuttheremusthavebeenanothercrackdown.-[AudienceMember]Thankyouverymuch.IhaveaquestiontoProfessorHaoJian.IreadofpresswrittenaboutyouinAppleDailyinHongKongyesterday.I'mwonderingwhenandwhereyougottheinterviewwithHongKong.AndalsotodayyoumadeaspeechaboutJune

4thoutsideofChina.IsthiscriticaltoChinesegovernment?AndifyougobacktoChina,doyouhaveanytroublewiththeChinesegovernment?And,ifyes,whatkindoftroublewillyouhave?-[Hao]I'llansweryourlastquestionfirst.Myanswerforyourlastquestion,whatkindoftroubleIwouldhavegotten.Idon'tknow.-[Wang]Weknow.-[Hao]IwillgobacktoChina,Iwill.HereIamjustavisitingscholar,andforyourearlierquestion,IacceptedtheinterviewinthebeginningofthisyearinBeijing,atmyhome.Infact,alotofmediapreparedtheirreportersaboutthis30thanniversary.Therearethreeforeignmediathatwantedtointerviewme.Infact,IacceptedtheinterviewinBeijingonpurpose.Infact,Ican'tacceptthisinterviewinHongKong...Infact,thecrewwouldgotoAmerica.ButIfelt,ifIcriticizetheChinesegovernmentandsaysomethingabouttheChinesesituationthemostsuitableplaceisinChina.Thankyouforcaringaboutmemytrouble.-[Rowena]DoyouwanttospeakChinese,isthatbetter?-[Hao]IfyoucouldnotunderstandmyEnglishIwillspeakChinese.-[Hao]Imustsay,Idon'tknowbecause,asMichaelSzonyimentioned,theChinesesituationchanges.Maybeinrecentyears,recentmonths,recentdays,wedon'tknow.Thankyou.-[Rowena]IthinkProfessorHaoJianisnotsonaivetothinkthathe'snotgoingtohaveanyconsequences.Ithinkthereasonthatwerespectpeoplelikehimisbecause,for30years,theyknowthattherewillbeconsequencesbuttheyarestilldoingwhattheyhavebeendoingandforthatreason,Ithinkthat'swhyhehasallourrespect.Yes,uh-huh.-[AudienceMember]Ihavetwoquestions.ThefirstquestionisforProfessorHaoJian.Youjustmentioned3,000studentswhohaddiedinTiananmenSquare,andIwonderhow---[Hao]Imentioned?-[AudienceMember]Or...-[Hao]No,Inevermentioned.-[Rowena]LiuXiaobo'sbookmentioned.-[AudienceMember]Ohyeah,sorry,sorry.LiuXiaobo,hementioned,andIwonderedhowtheydied.Aretheydirectlyshotbythemilitary,ordidtheydiebythemissiledevicebecauseintheinterviewbetweenPresidentJiangZeminandWallace,ourPresidentdirectlyannouncedthatnobodydirectlygotkilledbythemilitaryduringtheTiananmen

SquareeventHepersonallymadetheannouncementduringtheinterview.Sothat'swhyIhavethefirstquestionforyou,andthesecondquestionisforProfessorWangDan.Iwanttoaskaboutthedemocracy,becauseasIknow,ChinacannotbemadeintoanU.S.democracy.WhatImeanis,wecannotjustusetheUnitedStatestheirdemocracypoliciestoourcountry's,becausewehavedifferentcultures,wehavedifferentsituations.Andhowdoyoudefinethedemocracyfittedtous,toourcountry?Andyoujustmentioned,duringcampussquare,studentsproposedmanydemandstopushourcountrytobemoredemocratic.IalsoseeotherpeoplewhoexperiencedTiananmenSquareevent.Oneperson,hesaidthatthegovernmentdidacceptsomepartoftherequirementsofthestudents,buttheythinkthatstudentsbecametooradical,theylostcontrol,theydidn'twanttowithdrawfromTiananmenSquare.That'swhenthecome.Iwanttoknowthetruthfromyou.Thankyou,that'smytwoquestions.-[Jeff]CanIask,quickly?Ifthere'sonethingAmericanshavelearned,it'sthatpresidentssometimeslie.-[Wang]EspeciallyUnitedStates,or...-[Jeff]Butseriously,Imean,therehavebeencarefulanalysesofwhathappenedlateonthenightofJune3rdandearlyinthemorningofJune4th.Thereweremanypeoplekilled,exactnumbersarestillhardtocomeby.Atleasthundreds,probablythousands.Manyofthem,infact,themajorityofthemwerenotstudents,theywerebystanders,ordinary,eitherhadcomeouttosupporttheprotestsorwerebystanders.Mostifnotallofthemwerenotkilledonthesquare.That'sonethingthat'sdisputed:howmanypeople,ifany,werekilledonTiananmenSquare,butonthestreetsnearTiananmenSquaretherereallyisnoquestionthattherewerepeoplefireduponbysoldiers,whodied.There'salsonoquestionthattherewereatleastacoupleofsoldiers,orsomesoldierswhowerekilled,andinatleastonecase,burnedaliveinavehicle.Wecantalkandwecanargue,andthereneedstobemoreinvestigation,allofusIthinkwouldliketheretobeafullinvestigationaboutitbutthereisnoquestionthattherewasamassacrenearTiananmenSquareinwhichmanypeople,includingsomestudents,includingmanypeoplewhoweren'tstudents,died.That'sallI'mgonnasay.-[Rowena]HaoJian,doyouhaveanythingtoadd?-[Hao]Wouldyoupleasetranslateforme?BecauseIthankyouverymuchforyourquestion.-[Wang]Theydonotneedatranslator.-[Translator]Sowhetherit'stheChinesegovernmentorwhetherit'stheChinesePresidentorthePremierorme,oneofusislying,right?-[Translator]SoIcantellyouwhat'sbasedonmypersonalexperience.Ididwitnessonepersonbeingshot,andthatnightIalsosawfourorfivebodiesonacart,theywerebloody.Andwhethertheyweredead,Idon'tknowforsure.ProfessorWass...it'sadifficultname

-[Rowena]Jeff,Jeff,Jeff.-[Translator]So,justastheProfessorWasserstrompointedout,theChinesegovernmentwasplayingagamewithwords.IsChang'anAvenuepartofTiananmenSquare?Isthat,particularlythatsectionofChang'anAvenuethatisadjacenttoTiananmenSquare,doyouconsiderthatpartofTiananmenSquare?-[Translator]Formanyyears,IthoughtnobodywaskilledonTiananmenSquareandIalsoheardfromotherpeoplesayingthatnobodywaskilledonTiananmenSquare,butasTiananmenMothersstartedtheirinvestigationandtheystartedtolookfortruth,newinformationemerged.-[Translator]Ihaveevidence,youcancontinue.-[Translator]Iknow,I'veheardthatthreepeoplewereshotdeadwithinTiananmenSquare.We'renotincludingChang'anAvenue,justTiananmenSquareproper.-[Translator]So,again,backtomypersonalexperience,Iwenttolookformycousin'sbodysoIwenttoover10hospitals.-[Translator]Thebodieswithbulletsin,ofcourseIcan'tcountthemspecifically,Ican'tgiveyouexactnumbers---[Translators]...butIsaw40to50bodieswithbulletsin.-[Translator]WhenIwenttoFuxingHospital,thenatthattimeIdidseemycousin'smedicalrecord.Itdidn'toccurtometotakeitbackthenandthere'snowaynowformetogetit,butIdoremember,onthemedicalrecord,itstatedthatthebulletswentintohisshoulderbladeandafter20minutesofrescuework,hedied.-[Translator]SoIhopemymemorydidservetoansweryourquestion.-[Louisa]Ijustwantedtoaddacoupleofextrawordsaswelljusttoremindpeoplethatpeopledidn'tonlydieinBeijing,inChengduaswellthegovernmentadmittedthateightpeoplewerekilledincludingtwostudentsandthatwasaccordingtothegovernment'sownpropagandaleaflets.But,interestingly,inthelastcoupleofyearssomenewdocumentshavebeenemergingwithotherfiguresaswellthatwouldbewellworthfollowingupandinthelastcoupleofyearssomeBritishdiplomaticcableshavebeenreleasedthatputthefiguresmuch,muchhigher.SooriginallytheAmericansestimatedthat300peoplediedinChengdu,andtheBritishcablesthatwerereleasedtwoyearsagoactuallyputthefiguresevenhigher.Theyestimate,altogether,420peoplekilled,butthey'revery,veryroughestimates.Butitisworth,Ithink,notingthatthereweredeathsinotherplacesaswell.-[Rowena]SotherehasbeenevidencedocumentedinLiuXiaobo'sbookpublishedbyHarvardUniversityPress.Hisdata,ofcourse,onpagefiveandsixinEnglishsoeveryone

cancheck.So,accordingtotheinformationthattheTiananmenMothershadcollected.TherewerethreepeoplethatweredirectlyshotandkilledinsideTiananmenSquareandamongthem,thethree,isastudentnamecalledChenRenxinhe'sastudentofRenminDaxue,thePeople'sUniversity,andhewasaged25yearsold.Soagain,hewasshotandkilledrightnexttothetheflagpoleinTiananmenSquare.Sothat'soneexample,andhisfamilywasactuallydevastated.After,hisfatherdied,hismomtriedtohangherselfintheearly'90s,andthenthegrandchildsawthegrandmotherhangingandheusedhisshouldertodothissothatshewouldnot...Soshewouldkeepuntiltheadultscamehome.Sothat'soneexample,again:ChungYuenshin,aged25,shotandkilledinsideTiananmenSquare.Butalsoin2011,theChinaDailydidpublishanarticle,"TiananmenasaMyth",andthenitclaimedthat,basedontheWikileaks,noonewasshotandkilledonTiananmenSquaresothere'snosuchthingascalledtheTiananmenMassacre.But,ifyoulookattheinformationcollectedbytheTiananmenMothers,thereweretwomapsthathadbeencreatedbyvolunteersaccordingtothisinformationof202victims,withspecificlocationswherethebodieswerefoundandspecificlocationswherethevictimswerekilled.Soonlywhentheyhavetwolocationsweputthemonthemap.SoProfessorHaoJian'scousin,HaoZhijing,hewasshotandkilledinWuxidi.Thatwasoneofthemajorlocationswherepeoplewereshotandkilledinthearea,andHaoZhijingwasshottheretoo.AndthenanothermajorlocationisLiuBukou,wherethestudentswereleavingbacktoHaidianafterTiananmenSquarewasclearandthentheywithdrew,thestudentsweremainlycrushedbytankssothoseareoneofthetwomajor--soitdoesn'tmatterwhetherpeoplewerekilledinTiananmenSquare,that'snotthecentralquestion.Thefactis,themassacrehappenedthroughoutcentralBeijing,that'sbecauseasJeffWasserstromalreadymentioned,andLouisamentioned,thereareotherplacestoo.SothereisamassacreinTiananmenSquare.WecallittheTiananmenMassacreexactlylikewecallittheTiananmenMovement--itdoesn'tmeanit'shappeninginTiananmenSquareitself,it'sanationwidemovement.TiananmenMassacredoesn'tmeanthatitonlyhappenedinsideTiananmenSquare,butit'sthroughoutcentralBeijing.AndIhopethatansweredyourquestionaboutwhetherthereisamassacreornot.-[Rowena]Oh,yeah,WangDan,sorry.-[Wang]Ihavemyjobtodo,Ihaven'tfinished.Aboutdemocracy,IseeyouhavealotofhearsayIdon'tknowwhereyougotit.HaoJianactuallydidn'tsay3,000peoplediedinTiananmenSquare,andIdidn'tsayIwanttouseAmerica'sdemocracyappliedtoChina.Ineversaidthat!Ifyoucangivemesomelink,Iwouldappreciatethat.ButIdon'tthinkthatIsaidthatbecauseIdon'tknowwhatisso-calledUnitedStatesdemocracy.I'vebeenstudyinghereatHarvardfor20yearsandI'vewrittenonceaboutUnitedStatesdemocracy.IevenfeelmoreconfusednowadaysaboutdemocracyofUnitedStates,soIdefinitelywouldnotapplyUnitedStatesdemocracytoChina.AndmydefinitionfordemocracyisattheearlystateofdemocratizationofChinaisnottodosomething.Iadmitthatmightleadtosometurmoil,butit'snottodosomething.Ithinkthefirststageofdemocratization,iftheChinesegovernmentwantstodoit,isthestoppingofdoingsomething.Stopdoing!Thatwillnotleadtothesocialturmoil,right?Stopputtingsomebodyinjailjustbecausehesayssomethingoninternet.EvenChinesepeoplecansayit.Thatismydefinitionofademocracy,notUnitedStates.

-[Rowena]Andthestudentsin1989,theyactuallyhadgottenthisdemocracythatlooksdifferentfromtheoneinNewYorkand...yes.-[AudienceMember]Thankyouguysforcoming,firstofall,especiallyforWangDantobehere.Iwanttoaskyouguysaquestion.Ithinkthatinthe'80swe'veseenthatwithintheCCPthere'salotofstrugglebetweentheliberalsandtheconservativesandthereisashort-livedperiodwheretheU.S.andChinawereverycloseandthenthereisliberalreformsgoingoninChinawithfreedomofpress,freedomofspeech,again,short-lived.AndIwouldimaginethatthosevoicesthatweretheretosupportthestudentmovementatthattimeshouldstill,somehow,existwithintheCCP,right?We'veseenleaderslikeZhaoZiyang,BaoTong,WenJiabaothosearesupposedlypeoplewhoaresympathetictothemovementandIwaswondering,whatarethelegaciesofthoseleaderswithintheCCPnowandaretherepointsofhistorywheretheywouldbeallowedtoexpressthosevoicesmorestronglythantheydonow?Thankyou.-[Wang]AboutthelegacyofthoseliberalleadersofCCP,Ithinkmaybethere'soneIcouldseeis...I'veexperiencedthewhole1989s.Atthattime,thoseleadersincludingHuYaobang,ZhaoZiyangandmaybeDengXiaoping,theystillcangivesomespacetosociety.Theyletsocietyconductthemselvestosomedegree.Butnowthesituationhasbecomeworseandworse,andunderthecontrolofXiJinping,societylosttheirspace.Butthat'swhyIthinkXiJinping'sleaderslostthelegacyoftheHuYaobangandZhaoZiyang.Idon'tknowwhatothers...-[Jeff]Playingonhistory,Ijustwantedtobringuponething,becauseitcanbeaverydepressing,itisaverydepressingmoment,thinkingaboutChina.Butit's30yearsafteramassacreandyoucan'ttalkabouttheevent,thingslikethat.There'salotofoppression.30yearsafterEr'erbainTaiwan,the1947massacre,30yearsafterittherewasmartiallaw,youcouldnottalkaboutit,youcouldnotcommemorateit.TheleaderofTaiwanatthatpointwasChiangChingkuo,adictator'ssonwhohadrunthesecretpolice.Notasproutsofliberalizationkindofleader.But,notthatmuchlongerbecauseofshiftsandallkindsofthingsyoureachedapointwheretherewasacknowledgement.Nowthere'saparkdevotedtoEr'erba.SoIdon'tseetherootsofanythinglikethatinChina.ButIthinkit'simportanttonot...Thechangesinauthoritarianone-partystates,theworldhastochange,unexpectedthingshavetohappenbutit'simportant,Ithink,tonotthink,becauseyoucan'tseethemthatthere'snochance.Ico-wroteapiecewithMargaretLewisonthis,shestudiesTaiwan,andshehadareallygreatline.Shesaid,"theCommunistPartyhasprovedremarkably"resilientinrecentyears,"butTaiwanshowsyouevenresilientobjectsbreak."Sothat'sonekindofthingtoholdonto.Butwedon'tknowwhen,andwedon'tknowwhensomebody,aliberalizingfigurecouldemerge.-[AudienceMember]Thankssomuch.Ihaveaquestioninregardstothemobilizationduringthemovement.I'mtryingtoask,whydoyouthinkthemovementsucceededinmobilizingalargenumberofstudentsintothecollectiveaction,which,youknow,wasrisky,right?Somescholarsarguethatthere'sadensedistributionofcollegesinHaidiandistrictinBeijing,andthatlowersthecostofcommunicationandmonitoring,andIwaswonderingwhatareyourtakesonthistopic?Longestquestion.

-[Wang]Sothequestionishowdidweorganizealargenumberofstudents?-[AudienceMember]Whydoyouthinkthemovementsucceededinmobilizingalargenumberofstudents?-[Wang]Oh,oh,.Idon'tknow.Really,wehadtheveryfirstparadewhichhappenedonApril17th,latenightonApril17th.Nobodyorganizedit.Somebodydroppeda--howdoyousayinEnglish?what'sa-[Rowena]Abasin,right?-[Wang]Abasin.Someonejustdroppedabasinintherestroom,anybodygoestothesomelocation,thentheygatherandtheygotoTiananmenSquare.Idon'tknowwhythatstudentdidthat,but...SoIdon'tknowhowto...Imean,undersomecircumstanceandundersomeatmosphere,that'swhywealwaysdecideit'snotanintentionallyorganizedmovement.Amovementisjust,dependsonthewillingnessofthestudentsthemselves.Wedidn'torganizethem.-[Hao]Myopinion,theTiananmenMassacreistheresultofthe1980s.Duringthe10years,that'stherealreopeningandthereformperiodofChina.Ibelieve,in1989,theCommunisttotalitarianregimeclashedwithWesternvalues.Youknow,wealwaystalkabout1980sinChina.Evennow,wealwaystalkaboutduringthe10years,wereadalotofforeignbooks,thetwobooksyoumentioned.AndalotofHollywoodmovies,translatedbyJiangXinAsWangDansaid,becausethecollapsehappened,wedidn'tneedtomoveanyone.Noone-[Rowena]Mobilized.-[Hao]Yeah,thathappened.Ibelievethecollapse,maybethathappenedtoday.-[Wang]Icangiveyouamoreseriousanswer.Imean,intheprocessoforganizationofsuchamassmovement,in1989,self-disciplinewasveryimportant.Weasleaderswerejustfellowstudents.Andallofthosestudentshadreallyhighlevelsofself-discipline.-[Rowena]ProfessorCuiWeiping-[Translator]SoProfessorHaoJianmentionedatthebeginningthatthisisthefirsttimethathecanandisopenlytalkingaboutJune4th.Iactuallysharedthatcommonmemorywithhim.-[Translator]Soitwas10yearsaftertheJune4thincident,itwasonly1999thatProfessorHaoJianandIwereabletostarttalkingaboutJune4theventhoughwehadbeencolleaguesformany,manyyearswewerealsosortofdistantrelatives.

-[Translator]So20yearsago,itwasinaspringlikethis,flowerswereallblooming,andIwashavingasortofnormallifeandthenProfessorHaoJiantookmetoacemetery,thatwasthefirsttimeIsawallthetombstonesofpeoplewhohaddiedonJune4th.-[Translator]ItwasafterthatwebecamegoodfriendsandthememoryofJune4thhasunitedus,hasbroughtusveryclose.Memoriescanhelpsaveus.-[Translator]Sincethen,onJune4theveryyearwewouldgettogetheronthatverydayandsince2004,HaoJianandIhavetogetherhavejoinedpublicpetitionsandwehavebeenbothcalledbytheuniversityleaderstohaveatalk.From2009to2014,wehavebeenpushing,wehavebeenorganizingandparticipatinginvariouseventsrelatingtoJune4th.-[Translator]DespiteourclosetiesandourmanyyearsworkingtogethertodaywastheveryfirsttimethatIheardthestoryofHaoZhijing,HaoJian'scousin.-[Translator]MyquestionforHaoJianis,afteryouhadfoundHaoZhijing,wasityouwhonotifiedhisparents?Whatwashisparents'reactions?DidtheycometoBeijing?Whatweretheirliveslikeaftertheylearnedabouttheirson'sdeath.-[Translator]WelookedforHaoZhijingforabouthalfamonth,andthemorewelookedthemorewefeltthatprobablythenewswouldn'tbegood.SoweactuallygotHaoZhijing'sfathertoBeijingfirstwithoutevenknowingforsureHaoZhijing'swhereabouts.-[Translator]Whenwefoundhim,hisbodyactuallywasinabigfreezerinBeijing,inFuxingHospital.Therewerealsoeightotherbodiesthere.-[Translator]Thebodieswerealljet-blackbecausetherewerealotofchemicalsonthemtopreventthemfromgettingrot.-[Translator]SoitwasonlyafterwefoundthebodythatwegothismothertoBeijingandwehadafuneral.-[Translator]HaoZhijingwashisparents'onlyson,onlychild.-[Translator]Nowhisparentsarebotholdandthey'rechildless.That'soneofthereasonsIgobacktoChinaandIjusttoldyouguysthatIwilldefinitelybegoingbacktoChina.-[Translator]I'mverygratefultoProfessorCuiPingforraisingthisquestion,foraskingaboutthepersonalexperience,askingtheparents'personalexperienceinsteadofjustfocusingonbighistory,bigtrends.-[Translator]Sothere'salittlebitofastory,alittlebitofinformationofaboutProfessorCuiPing,right?Inourschool,it'sonepolicemanfollowingoneprofessor,butsincetheinitialpolicemanthatwasassignedtofollowmewasmystudent,sotheyassignedhimtofollowProfessorCui.

-[Translator]Thankyou,ProfessorCuiPing.-[Rowena]Iknowtime'sup,butIsawalotofhandssoarewesupposedtoleaveontime,or...Okay,maybeintheback.Thegentleman,yeah.-[AudienceMember]Hi,thanksforyourpresentations.Iapologizeifmyquestionsarecontroversial.I'mverysorryforyourlossesandthetragediesthatarecausedbytheTiananmenevent,butmyquestion'smorefocusedonthequestionthatWangDandiscussed,whichwaswhatwouldChinabelikeifTiananmenSquaresucceeded?Butmyquestionis,whatwouldhappeninChinaifTiananmenSquaredidnothappen?Andwealsoknowthat,atthetime,IthinkDengXiaopingwasopentoreforms.SodoyouthinkthattheTiananmenincidentfurthereradicatedthepossibilityofreform?Imean,ifyoujustwaitedafewmoreyearsafter1989,wouldthereformhappen?Basically,didTiananmenSquarecausetheincreasedrepressionthattheChinesepeoplearefeelingnow?-[Wang]That'stypicallymyquestion.I'vediscusseditmanytimes.Whathappenedin1989,therearetwothingsIthinkarebigmisunderstandingsaboutwhathappenedin1989.WejustcalledinJune4th.No,it'snotonlyJune4th.There'stwothingsthathappenedin1989:one,there'sthe1989DemocracyMovement.Two,thecrackdownonJune4thbythegovernment.That'stwothings.Yes,theprogressstopped,butnotbythestudentmovement,bythecrackdownbythegovernment.Studentshaveeveryright,ontheconstitutionofChina,togotothestreettoexpresstheiropinion.There'snothingtocriticizethem,butthegovernmenthadachoice.YoucanacceptthosetwoverymoderaterequirementsandyoucandoabloodycrackdownandturnChinatoanotherway.Soitwasnotstudentswhotaketheresponsibility,thegovernmentshouldtaketheresponsibility.-[Rowena]Andalso,inZhaoZiyang'ssecretmemoirthatEddiewasoneoftheco-editors,hemadeitveryclear:oneofthethreereasonsthestudentsparticipatedin1989,numberthreereasonwasbecause,after1987whenHuYaobangandFangLizhiwereoustedthereformhadalreadycometoastandstillandthatwasthereasonthestudentsthoughtthattheyshouldtaketothestreetsandpushforthepoliticalreforminsteadofthemovementitselfstoppingthereform.-[Jeff]Youactuallycan'tdisentangleitquitethatwaybecausewhathappenedafter1989wasalsotheunravelingofCommunistPartyruleinEasternEurope,andthebreakupoftheSovietUnion,andalotoftherepressionnowisdoneinthenameofpreventinganypossibilityforthekindofchangesthathappenedthere.SotherearemorethingsinvolvedthanjustinternallywithChina.It'sareallyinterestingquestionbutIthinkthereallkindsofwaysthathistorycanunfold.-[Rowena]Okay,soIhavetobe...Oh,there'smore.Okay,soourCommunistPartyleaderistellingustostopnow--NotMichael,justme,dictatorship.Iappreciatealltheenthusiasm,Iseethatyouhavemorequestions,Iapologize,it'sallmyfaultthatweranoutoftimenowsoyou'rewelcometocomeupandtalktoourspeakers.Thankyousomuchforcomingtoday.Truthandreconciliation,withouttruththerewillbenoreconciliation.SoChinahastofaceitspastinordertohaveafutureandI'msurethatwewillseechange,ifnotinmy

lifetimeasmylatementor,ProfessorMacFarquharifit'snotinmylifetime,thaninyours--theyoungergenerations.Thankyou.