The Axe Files - Ep. 13: Spike Lee · That was -- "Chi-Raq" which you're talking about -- AXELROD:...

Ep. 13 – Spike Lee 1

The Axe Files - Ep. 13: Spike Lee Released Nov. 30, 2015 [00:00:09] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now, from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, "The Axe Files" with your host, David Axelrod. DAVID AXELROD, :THE AXE FILES" HOST: When Spike Lee announced that he was coming to Chicago to do a movie called "Chi-Raq", the reaction was less than enthusiastic in many parts of town. I wasn't one of those people because we do have a problem in neighborhoods of our city that are war zones between gangs. He produced the film that will be out in a few days that is grim in some respects and broad body, satire in others, typical Spike Lee. And I had a chance to sit down with him and talk about the film, about politics, about race, and of course about the New York Knicks. Spike Lee, I'm going to say something that not everybody in Chicago said, which is welcome to Chicago. SPIKE LEE, DIRECTOR: Well, I mean, I get this when there was the Bulls and the Knicks but -- no, I've always gotten been treated great in Chicago, so I have no complaints. AXELROD: But you -- but obviously there was a lot of anxiety among some -- LEE: And I understand. AXELROD: Yes. Because of the name of the movie and -- LEE: Right, which is I did not come up with. That was -- "Chi-Raq" which you're talking about -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- that was invented you might say or thought by local Chicago rappers who felt that the South Side, Chicago is a war zone, so they equated that with Iraq. AXELROD: Yes. Not just the South Side but the West Side as well by the way. LEE: Oh, yes, yes, West Side too. AXELROD: Yes. So, what made you decide to do this film? LEE: Well, the co-writer, Kevin Wilmott, and I, tried to do this six years ago. He wrote a script, his adaptation of the Greek play "Lysistrata" which was written by Aristophanes 411 B.C. And the name of that script was called "Got to Give it Up." We had two readings for DreamWorks Studio, it didn't happen. And a year ago, I was getting a lot of comments from people in Chicago, "Spike, you need to come here. Spike, can you look at this? Spike is crazy. Spike, look at this." And so-- then I remembered this -- the project Kevin and I had wanted to do. So I said, "Kevin, let's rewrite this together and let's make it take place in the South Side, Chicago because the other script was a non-script urban area. And I said let's call it "Chi-Raq". So that's how it happened. AXELROD: You know, I had a chance to see the film -- (CROSSTALK) LEE: I saw you trying to get to that mob and I apologize for that.


AXELROD: That's all right. You should never apologize for drawing a mob. I thought that was a good sign. LEE: Yes, but it is a good mob or bad mobs. AXELROD: Yes. Well, that was a good mob, though. It's a good crowd. And the movie was a great experience. Let me tell you as Chicagoan how I reacted to it. LEE: Yes. And I respect your opinion, sir. AXELROD: I -- The scenes of violence and the scenes of grieving mothers tore me apart. Tore me apart because I lived here and I see those scenes play it out on television every night. LEE: Right. AXELROD: And you were so right that it is kind of a tale of two cities because I live in downtown Chicago and I'm just miles away from this, but it's a whole different scene, it's another world. LEE: Right. AXELROD: So I saw all of that. Jennifer Hudson, spectacular-- LEE: Amazing, amazing. AXELROD: -- in this film. LEE: I like to talk about it later if we could get to that. AXELROD: Yes, because she's experienced – LEE: Right. AXELROD: --the impact of violence. Angela-- LEE: Personally. AXELROD: Personally right here on this city. Angela Bassett, fantastic, also as an older grieving mother who lost her child. So I'm torn apart by this. And then you have this satire that is pretty faithful, the "Lysistrata", actually a play that was written 2,500 years ago. And I'm -- and it's funny and enjoyable in a way. But the question is do you worry that the satire will overwhelm the impact of the real life story that people feel in this city everyday? [00:05:09] LEE: And that's the legitimate question but I think that I have enough skill and craft that that won't happen. Satire, as you said, has been used -- I mean, Aristophanes, he satirize Greece at that time. One of my -- AXELROD: The Peloponnesian wars. LEE: Yes. Well, my favorite filmmaker is Stanley Kubrick and what could be more serious than a nuclear holocaust that will end this God's earth. AXELROD: Yes.


LEE: But "Dr. Strangelove" is a funny as a motherfucker. AXELROD: It is, yes. LEE: So, I know that there's a chance that people might think that, you know, but I think that I'm in control of my craft that people get it. AXELROD: Yes. I mean, I was going to ask you that. How do you balance the two? Do you think about that as you're sitting there at a suite, do you think about that? LEE: I will go to another film. "Wizard of Oz", very delicately. No, juggernaut and it's easy to do. "Do the Right Thing" is not a satire. It's a very serious film but also as funny as hell. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: So, it's a juggernaut act and you find the tone. And as you stated, find the tone in editing room. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: You find the balance, the correct balance. AXELROD: The thing I found shocking was this wasn't a huge production. It felt like maybe because we were sitting in the Chicago Theatre which is an incredible place and it was huge and the sound was really great. And -- but it felt like, you know, a huge production and you were still shooting it this summer, which means that you were -- you -- I'm -- how are you editing this thing? LEE: Well, my editors Ryan Denmark, Hye Mee Na, they were in Chicago with me editing while we're going along. Because there was urgency to this film, we knew we had to get this film as soon as possible. AXELROD: Why. LEE: Because we want to save lives. I'm always going to believe that art can used for good and I felt that this film could save lives. So, everything was at accelerated pace. We just finished shooting July 9th. So, we finished July 9th and then it's being released nationwide December 4th, that's not normal. AXELROD: Have you ever worked on a schedule that expedited before? LEE: Yes. "Get on the Bus" we had the rush for the anniversary of the "Million Man March", but I mean that was a very -- that budget -- not just the budget, the scale of the film was smaller than what we have here with "Chi-Raq." AXELROD: You -- the sense of urgency that you -- So you spent a lot of time with Mike Pfleger -- Father Pfleger at St. Sabina Church. LEE: Father. Father. That's my guy. AXELROD: Yes. Mine as well. You know, I did a documentary but -- (CROSSTALK) LEE: Yes. I wish you have somebody to send to it me, please?


AXELROD: Yes, I will. I meant to bring in and I apologize but I'm going to -- I will send that to you. LEE: Now, you guys go way back. AXELROD: Yes, we do. And he obviously lives this every single day. LEE: Right. Can I ask you a question? AXELROD: Yes. LEE: Do you think people in Chicago really appreciate as a whole Father Pfleger? AXELROD: Well, he's -- I think a lot of people do. LEE: OK. AXELROD: I think he's a controversial figure. I think the most -- I have to tell you that, you know, when I was working for Barack Obama – LEE: Right. AXELROD: -- back in the early 2000s, he was running for the Senate. And we took a poll because we wanted to put leading black figures on the radio endorsing him. And we listed a whole bunch of leaders in the black community and far and away the most popular figure was this white Catholic priest -- LEE: From St. Sabina. AXELROD: On the south side of-- from Saint Sabina, Father Pfleger which really, really interested me. But, you know, he's walked those streets for decades. LEE: Right. AXELROD: He's lived it. He's experienced the loss, he lost -- he had adopted children. LEE: Right, I think two. AXELROD: Yes. Who -- and so, you know, he is sort of in many ways the face of the fight against these problems. LEE: I think he's a living saint myself. AXELROD: Yes, I'm -- listen, I -- in interviewing Father Pfleger for this documentary, you know, the reason I did the piece was I thought he was going to get essentially thrown out of there by the archdiocese. LEE: Yes. AXELROD: Because he was, you know, controversial and I asked him about that. And he said, "You know what? I just -- I try and do what I think Jesus would have me do. And I really believe that. I think that's what he does. LEE: Courageous.


AXELROD: But tell me what you've learned about the Chicago in this situation and where you think we are in terms of all of this? [00:10:00] LEE: Well, two words, diocese straits But I would like to say that -- I mean, there's been some grumble and I just got here. I mean, I was -- we didn't start shooting to June 1st but I was doing research coming back and forth between Chicago and New York in January. So I was here going back and forth for six months before we started filming. Chicago is a great, great city but also one of America's biggest segregated cities. And unlike other cities, there is a historical element of gangs. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: You know, you have Capone-- (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: Have you figured out why? LEE: You had, you know, black gang, too – AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- so tell me why. AXELROD: Well, I mean, I don't know. One of the things it -- this town has always been very much divided into wards, into parishes. It's a very parochial town and, you know, everybody is aware of the ward they lived in and who the leaders of the ward war and who the -- LEE: The new leaders, too, right? AXELROD: Yes. And so, so, you know, it lends itself do that kind of organization. It's also a crossroads for drugs. I mean it is a crossroads for the drug trade. This guy down in Mexico who dug his way out of -- LEE: That guy? AXELROD: Yes. LEE: That has a bounty on Trump? AXELROD: Eighty percent of his drug trade in the U.S. passes through -- or 80 percent of the drug trade in Chicago comes from him. So, there's a big business here that fuels these gangs but you travel the country, this is maybe a particularly pernicious problem here but it's a problem in cities across -- LEE: I mean-- AXELROD: What do we do about it? LEE: I mean, here's the thing, I think we say -- I mean, Angela Bassett's character says it's not just the fact, her character hates the term Chi-Raq, in the film. AXELROD: Yes, yes. LEE: And she says, not just Chicago, it's Killadelphia, it's Bodimurmuland (ph) and it's Bucktown which is Brooklyn, New York. And that's true. This black violence is happening all across this great country. But


Chicago is on another level. New York City has three times the population of Chicago, yet more homicides are committed in Chicago. But when we talk about the populous Chicago, it's really not the whole city. It's really the South Side and the West Side. So, that will make their number jump even higher. AXELROD: I'm just -- you know, I'm assuming the women of Chicago are not going to go on strike as they do in your movie. LEE: Oh, a lady started -- AXELROD: I saw that, I saw that, yes. LEE: I think it's up to 33 people signed up. AXELROD: But-- LEE: We got two ladies in the room right now that signed up. You can make it 39. AXELROD: The-- LEE: Lock it up, lock it up. AXELROD: Assuming that that is not the case, what do you see as the answer to this? I mean, I know -- that's not your -- LEE: Right. AXELROD: -- it's not your area, you're trying to raise consciousness but, I mean, as you're traveling around the city, what do you hear what can help? LEE: Well, I think what could really help, we got to do something about these guns. Chicago has a very tight, tight, tight gun laws but how long is Gary, Indiana from here? AXELROD: Not a long way. LEE: So, Indiana is lax. You can get anything that you want. You get a bazooka with whatever you want. And, I mean, so that's -- I mean, there was a other story that came out the other day that majority of the guns, the legal guns that come into the city are from Indiana. New York City has a very, very tight gun laws, really put in there by Mayor Bloomberg but it's not so for Virginia. AXELROD: Right. LEE: But Georgia, Florida -- AXELROD: And New York is surrounded by states that are relatively good on gun laws. LEE: Right. AXELROD: So, you know, they don't have the problem of neighboring states -- LEE: Yes. AXELROD: --where guns can pour in over.


LEE: But it still happens but not as prevalent as having Illinois with-- AXELROD: Indiana. LEE: -- Indiana. AXELROD: Yes. Yes. What do you make of the -- LEE: I mean, like Father Pfleger is really pushing for less title guns like cars. I think that we have to have just more very simple legislation put in to -- so it's not, you know, background checks. And I think that we have to really go toe to toe with NRA and the gun manufacturers. And for this-- really for the soul of this country. Because, I mean, so often -- number one, United States is the greatest country on this God's planet but also so many times we go around the world saying we're the moral force, the moral force of the world, and then new town-- AXELROD: Right. LEE: -- Charleston and people around the world saying, "What the fuck. What are you talking about?" AXELROD: Right, right. [00:15:13] LEE: I mean, they think -- they view it like it's the wild wild west. AXELROD: Right. And, well, you just saw an example the other day because there's a human cry about refugees coming in from Syria but -- LEE: That was Donald -- (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: Let's talk about Donald Trump for a second, because -- let's set him aside for a second but. LEE: OK. AXELROD: But you as a New Yorker, you need to explain Donald Trump to the world, but we'll do that in a second. LEE: I can't. Even though it's Brooklyn, I don't claim him. I don't claim him. AXELROD: If it makes you feel any better, he probably doesn't claim you either. LEE: It's mutual. AXELROD: But, you know, you have people on the terrorist watch list who were allowed to buy guns because the NRA is so powerful in Congress. It is -- you know, Obama when he was in the legislature here, had a debate with a guy from Downstate Illinois, that I'll always remember where he said to the guy, I understand what the guns -- you grew up with guns and your father took you to hunting and his father took him hunting as a young boy. And we don't want to destroy those traditions but I come from a community where mother sit by the window hoping their kids come home from school alive. And we've got to find a way to reconcile those things. Do you think we ever will? LEE: I think so. And I just think that we have to really explain to people that gun violence -- I mean, anti-


gun violence is not taking away people's second amendment rights. And I -- look, there was a time where my ancestors were enslaved, there were times when most recently gay people weren't allowed to be married. So we've had these things throughout this history of this great country I think that get to the point where we won't -- we want to bow down to tyranny of the NRA and gun manufacturers. AXELROD: If I were sitting in front of the police commissioner-- LEE: Where. AXELROD: Police superintendent of Chicago. LEE: Right. AXELROD: McCarthy. LEE: And I ask him, what was the best thing we could do, most important thing to stop the killing, he would have said exactly what you said. He would've said we're awash in guns here that are coming in from Indiana and elsewhere and we've got to be able to stop those. Talk a little bit about police in the community. You know, we've seen all of these -- we've seen Ferguson, we've seen Baltimore -- LEE: Staten Island. AXELROD: Staten Island, yeah, which was maybe the most chilling of all. And, you know, as we speak and there's a tape that's going to be released in Chicago of a young man who was shot 16 times by a police officer, apparently while he was on the ground, we'll see what the tape shows. But -- and this is really exacerbated police community relation. And I would tell you, when I was a young reporter, the first column I ever wrote 43 years ago, I was an 18-year-old columnist was about police brutality and police community relations in Chicago, 43 years ago. So, it's not new. LEE: It's not new. AXELROD: It's -- what's new is we've got -- now people have cameras. LEE: Right. AXELROD: We're faced with it, you can't run away from it. LEE: And also social media. So before -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- it was a national story you didn't hear about it. But now with social media, I mean, like even at the local press doesn't report it -- like Sandra Bland, that started through social media. AXELROD: Right. Yes. So -- LEE: And I do not believe -- we have a line in that in the film where one lady says, "Do you believe Sandra Bland hung herself?" I don't. AXELROD: Right, right. Yes. I mean, but -- and there's a -- there's so much of that reverberating around. On the other hand, you know, when I was a young reporter I also saw police do heroic things. LEE: Yes.


AXELROD: Police who have their own families go in and do heroic things to try and save other people: LEE: But here's the thing, I think that we still have to -- I'm not going to be like another film director and say -- I won't mention his name. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: (INAUDIBLE) AXELROD: Yes, it does start with a Q, yes. LEE: But most -- I will say most policemen do a great job. But that is not -- have anything to do with the ones that don't. AXELROD: Right. LEE: And so it's -- AXELROD: As a matter of fact, the ones don't actually make it harder for the ones who do. LEE: Oh, they do? And I agree with that. And so, I think police had to be less sensitive to the ones that are fellow members in the ranks who are fucking up. You know, they stand toe to toe, arms locked and, you know, would defend their brother no matter what. And that doesn't help with the community. [00:20:04] AXELROD: You know what worries me a little -- I know that there's been a lot of debate back for this controversial to say it. Kind of seems to me like human nature that -- and may be in many ways this is good that police are going to be more hesitant or more thoughtful about using force. That's good if there -- if they throw their hands up and say I'm not going to get involved, that's bad. And it strikes me that in each case the community that's going to be impacted are usually communities of color. They need strong policing, but they need cooperative policing. LEE: And I'll give an example with -- I'm going to say the murder of Eric Garner, and then -- AXELROD: This was the choking death in Staten Island. LEE: The choking death in Staten Island. And Mayor De Blasio says some statement by this that could have been a, you know -- AXELROD: His son. LEE: -- his son and that Patrick Lynch -- AXELROD: Right. LEE: -- with the Zurich. AXELROD: The pull of the FOP got ahead of the police union and -- LEE: The police union saying that the blood --there's blood on studio on --because two cops were killed after that. And the blood is on the steps of City Hall and he -- that the family asked him. The family who's off shores was killed after they'd come to the funeral and the service and all the cops turned their back on


him. And then for awhile they were doing, no -- I mean when you new -- a scene in New York state eight million people and no rest in one day. I mean -- AXELROD: You're suspicious. LEE: Oh, yes, yes. It was like miles walked off the job. You know, it was a slow down. AXELROD: Right. LEE: Definitely. AXELROD: You've been -- no one has done more sort of on the race through the arts and shining a bright light on these issues and you have over last 25 years. Where do you think we are today, have we made progress and -- because it feels very edgy sometime. LEE: Yes and I would like to say that it's -- when we take one step forward and one -- two steps back. I -- when your guy, our guy put his hand, his right hand -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- and then we have Lincolns -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- Bible, I thought it was a great day in history of this country. But I now by the Kool-Aid that we were now on a posts -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- racial for that. I'm like, what the fuck is that. AXELROD: Nor did he, by the way and nor did any of us, you know that. LEE: I'm not saying it came from him. ALXEROD: No, I know. LEE: But there was this thing like now we have a black President, racism and prejudice is like abracadabra, hocus-pocus, shazam, out of here. AXELROD: Right. LEE: And now -- and I am just, oh, that is not the case. And I know you and the president were bind to that. AXELROD: Right. LEE: But there was that -- it was out there. It was out there. AXELROD: So I hope as well. I mean, you know, the thing that you have to deal with or we had to do with them were, you know, expectations that were hard to grow. The one thing that he did say that I think is true, that I think is really moving when he was taking a running


for president. Michelle asked him what do you think you can do that no one else can do. And he said, I don't know, but I know this when I raise my hand and take that oath through a lot of kids in this country are going to look at themselves differently. And I've seen that and I've seen that when I talk to young black kids who couldn't imagine, you know, the possibility. And that certainly is progress. But we've seen a lot of angry voices. Do you think that some of those voices have been directed on him because of race? LEE: Oh yes. And I think that there has been -- you might not make it upon, but this is a spike in racism. I would say since he has been in office. I know they will never make it public but I would say it's safe to say he's probably had more assassination attempts on him. Don't answer -- AXELROD: No. I'm not going to and I wouldn't. LEE: But I put money down. That David Moyer (ph) assassination attempts on him, to any of the president in history's country that you just don't know about it. AXELROD: Or a threat. Right. LEE: Or threats. I also like to say that last Saturday I received the honorary Oscar. AXELROD: Yes. I want to ask you about that. LEE: And I brought up the President and addressing diversity in the industries of the Hollywood in T.V. network. AXELROD: Or a lack there of -- [00:25:00] LEE: Black of black, then I said it's easier for African-American to be President of the United States of America. The president of the Hollywood studio network TV arcade. And it's true. AXELROD: Yes. Why is that? A part of it is we can't run campaigns first. If you decide to run for network studio, I'll come out of retirement, Spike, and I'll help you. But we can't run campaigns for that. But what is it about Hollywood that has been so impenetrable for people -- LEE: Like I will just say is part of racism and also people to understand what diversity is about and what it means. I also think I also brought up in my acceptance speech is that the United States Census Bureau, not Spike Lee, United States Census Bureau states by the year 2043, white Americans are going to be minority in this country. And that if you and I said it looked out on the origins, if you are in a position of hiring you should really think about maybe your workforce should look like reflect this country. Plus forget about where your views are, it's good for the bottom line. So that's -- AXELROD: Did you -- you've been teaching for 20 or more years. LEE: Fifteen yeas at NYU graphing (ph). AXELROD: Yes, yes. So, you're working with the young filmmaker. LEE: Yes. AXELROD: Presumably of diverse --


LEE: Yes, yes, NYU is very diverse, very. A lot of -- AXELROD: And you came out of that program, right? LEE: Yes. AXELROD: And do you see -- do you see a new generation of -- LEE: Oh yes. AXELROD: -- talent coming out of there? LEE: Yes. Very talented, very talented. And I like to add that we kick UFC (ph) in ass. They could kill us on football but when it comes to film school, they can't get that. But it's this thing -- I mean imagery is so important. I mean if people want to see themselves. Imagery, you know, a positive imagery of who they are. I had a note and my speech was not written out by (inaudible) things. Another thing I had in my note the Buffy (ph) got the say was that even forgetting about being a president of a network or a studio. We have to get those -- there's not one African-American, let's leave animation out of it because an African-American woman is present of animation at Fox. First name is Vanessa. Always blank on her last name. Vanessa, please forgive me for the hundredth of time. But have you be able to -- I know the presidency in twice. Have you seen Hamilton yet? AXELROD: I have. Yes. One of the most amazing things I've ever seen play. Everybody should see Hamilton if they get -- LEE: Please. AXELROD: -- fans. LEE: Well, if they get tickets. AXELROD: Yes, yes. It could take six or seven years to go see it. But you should go and see it. LEE: And I think the tickets come around in September. But, one of my favorite songs in Hamilton is a song called -- sung by the great Leslie Odom Jr., I want to be in the room when it happens. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: So here's a thing. The way how it would works and the studios, they -- the people who decide who gets who made have a green light vote. And then no people color who have a vote. So we're not in a room. So if you're not in a room, you don't have to say. And asked -- and I know that I love Benzel and Sam and everybody, Ms. Winfrey, but they are not -- they won't have a vote. They're not part of the structure (inaudible) Miss Winfrey because she has her own thing. AXELROD: She has her own structure. LEE: She owns a structure. But as far as a Hollywood network that's give some goes, we don't have the


green line votes so therefore we're not -- you know, you're not in a room. And if you're not in a room, you don't have to say. AXELROD: Yes. So, does do -- the question is do -- does Hollywood have to open its doors or do minority entrepreneurs have to kick the doors down by creating their own? LEE: It's like the Bill Walsh Sam (ph) school office. You know, you going to run the ball. And you guys, so it's multidimensional. You going to run, you got to throw. And then, this thing is at -- I lost my chance thought. AXELROD: Well, let me read. Will you try and put the train back on the track. Let me just pick up on the Hamilton thing for a second. [30:04] LEE: Yes. It's not made of -- AXELROD: This is a play written by a young Puerto Rican -- LEE: Balikwa (ph). AXELROD: Lin-Manuel Miranda. And it is a biography of Alexander Hamilton performed essentially in rap -- LEE: Right. AXELROD: -- by an all -- LEE: Cast of color. AXELROD: --black and Hispanic cast. LEE: Yes. AXELROD: And it is -- it's just killing. It's -- and compelling and historically accurate by the way. LEE: Did you ever read the book, it was -- AXELROD: By Ron Chernow. LEE: Yes. Did you know? AXELROD: Chernow. I haven't. LEE: That thing is like 20,000 pages. AXELROD: No I know. I know. He -- LEE: I'm a little bit of exaggeration. AXELROD: Lin-Manuel said he took the book on vacation and he thought this -- I want to start writing about this. It must be a long vacation -- LEE: But it --


AXELROD: -- because that was a hell of a long book. But I suppose I read this because it's great book. LEE: I think he got the book an, you know, in the airport and you can go to the book I heard is like that. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: Grab the book and read on a beach. AXELROD: Yes. Well, it's a great story. But I mean my point -- my point is this, who would have thought and -- LEE: Who would have thanked it? AXELROD: -- that an all black and Hispanic cast doing rap would have this smash hit on Broadway and it's a play about one of the founding father. So it -- that suggest some sort of progress. LEE: Oh, yes. I mean I'm not one to say that we've not made progress. I mean, you -- sir, you were there first hand. AXELROD: Wow. LEE: I mean you had insight. One day when you can. One day we will able to. We'll get the really real. I know a little to close now -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- but I know it's going to come. But you are witness -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- to one of a great -- AXELROD: I was lucky to be a witness. Yes. LEE: You are blessed. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: And you were therefore reason because you needed to be there. AXELROD: Well, let us talk about this next election that's going on right now. We manually -- LEE: Help me, Jesus. AXELROD: We mentioned -- LEE: Help me, Jesus. AXELROD: We mentioned the -- we mentioned Euro fellow Brooklynite -- LEE: And also Bernie -- they're both from Brooklyn.


AXELROD: Yes, I know. I know. LEE: I'm only claiming one. AXELROD: I know. Bernie actually -- Bernie sounds like he's from Brooklyn. I mean he's faithful doing his Brooklyn accent. LEE: He's been in Vermont more to have it. AXELROD: I'll tell you. We had him on a -- he's our first show. LEE: Yes. AXELROD: And we're talking of -- he grew up in Brooklyn in the '50s -- LEE: Right. AXELROD: -- and he was an athlete, you know, at James Madison High school. LEE: Hey, that's the same that William Alice's too. They both went to Madison. AXELROD: But yes. And he -- and I said well used -- were you Dodgers fan. He looked at me like I was nuts. So what you think? And he said there were three guys when I was growing up who was hated in Brooklyn. Since Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Walter O'Malley, he says it -- it was not necessarily in that order. He said. So he was -- yes he's a Brooklyn guy. LEE: Right. AXELROD: But -- so tell me about Trump though. You know, because I'll tell -- I'll tell you why I raise it because in the last few days as we sit -- LEE: Because what happened Paris. AXELROD: What happened in Paris and because he there was a black man who was hassled at his rally and he said maybe he should have been -- LEE: The roughed up. AXELROD: Roughed up. And he circulated some statistics that have -- since been debunked about black on black crime. LEE: No. But he also said that people were put and stand up and cheering. AXELROD: Yes. In Jersey. LEE: In Jersey. It's to Washington Towers for. AXELROD: Right. Right. LEE: And --


AXELROD: But, you know, he is the -- LEE: Is that a boldface lie when he said I saw what I saw? What did you see it then? AXELROD: It was, it was. LEE: Where did you see it? AXELROD: Well, that question hasn't been answered. I mean, you know, the things he said that -- LEE: But they have on other thing. It kept saying have you seen -- AXELROD: No, I know. I know. But my question is why do you think he is -- he's got a lot of take-up, you know. He's not like being treated like a serial exaggerated or lie or whatever. He is -- he is leading the Republican race for president now whether he ends up there and has no -- LEE: These all reaction to eight years of Obama. I have this -- that's why I feel my heart this is a reaction to like, look, the conscience gone his way for eight years. And we got to get control this shit and there could be some -- we get into the White House. They have the reason why like it changes up in here. AXELROD: Well, and he's just a -- LEE: And it need some policy changes. AXELROD: It's just about that blunt. LEE: Yes. Oh, he's not me that -- I can't -- AXELROD: Do you know him? LEE: I see him once in a while in Knick game. And that's about it. I don't know the guy. AXELROD: Does he have seats as good as yours? LEE: He doesn't have seats. Jim Dolan gives some seats. And so actually don't that -- [00:35:03] AXELROD: He doesn't pay for anything. LEE: Not, did not when he goes to the Garden. AXELROD: Does it bother you. Does it scare you? Does it -- LEE: Oh, it's scary. I mean want to stand -- I mean just he's the things he said about Hispanics. I mean, and then was scariest that he is, he is -- like you just said he is number one and their cars are scary too. So I was like it's one or two. AXELROD: Yes. Scary but figures about the thing. LEE: But I do feel that this is -- a portion of this country said, look, we don't like this black guy. We like this African. Did he had a joke in Iraq. When they're in General King Kong's office and she has read the names of the people. I said no -- AXELROD: Oh, yes, I did it.


LEE: I'd rather have -- it's a bumper stick. I'd rather have a lion Africa. AXELROD: A lion Africa. I'd rather have an African lion and lion African. Yes. That was totally -- LEE: We got that from a bumper sticker. AXELROD: Oh, is that right? LEE: Yes. I mean how long did Trump pushes thing that about Obama's a birth certificate? AXELROD: Yes, yes, yes. You know, at this point you raise a better reaction, I have this theory which was what made me think that he could win in 2008 and that is that we tend not to choose the replica of what we have. We always choose the remedy. Even if people like the guy they have they choose the remedy and, you know, they chose Obama because they thought Bush was, you know, was too aggressive, too impulsive. Didn't see the world the way the world is. But another guy -- LEE: How would it be (inaudible) president of the United States? And you would never let the confident. He just been the Mexico and Canada. That was it. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: How do you even run? AXEROD: But not just an interest to tell me, I want to rehash all of that. But my point is -- LEE: We've been this forever. AXELROD: Nobody's the bigger sort of antithesis of Barack Obama than Donald Trump. He is, you know, he is bombastic, he's impulsive, he's unrestrained. LEE: Mean? AXELROD: Yes. I mean, you know, he is not -- LEE: What he did he say to that lady? That was horrible. AXELROD: Which lady? LEE: She was on a -- on period or somewhat like that? AXELROD: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, during the debate, Megyn Kelly from Fox. LEE: How do you say that? AXELROD: Well, you know, the thing that he is getting a lot of reinforcement because he says he seems to have -- but I think this will, you know -- (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: You should appreciate the fact that you coming out of the world you come out of, whatever


else he is, he's entertaining and he knows how to use TV. LEE: Right. AXELROD: And, you know, he is he, you know, he said that his childhood hero was Flo Ziegfeld of the Ziegfeld Follies. That was his childhood hero. He sees this as a big TV show, you know. LEE: But, I want to bring up a film that was made in '57 I think, that had the crystal ball all of this. A face in the crowd -- AXELROD: With Andy Griffith. LEE: Andy Griffith written my main man is known with this Budd Schulberg and directed by Elika Sander (ph) (inaudible), please look at this film -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- a face in the crowd. It had to -- it forecast Viagra. I mean a whole bunch of stuff. It's a great film of used -- the character also roads could is Donald Trump who said that he is not out some country bumpkin, but he's still the same thing. AXELROD: Before we go. I have -- we share a few things. I grew up in New York City. We're about the same age -- LEE: You born in '57? AXELROD: I was born '55. LEE: Cool. AXELROD: So I grew up a Knicks fan. I live through those '69, '70 -- LEE: Yes. AXELROD: --Nixon, you know, great teams. LEE: How'd you get to Chicago? AXELROD: Milt Bradley (ph) . I came out here to go to the University of Chicago -- LEE: Great School. AXELROD: Yes. It's a great school. And it's far enough from New York that I knew my parents wouldn't surprise me with a visit. That was the other thing. LEE: Where's your going at? AXELROD: And the politics were good. Stuyvesant town in Manhattan. LEE: You went to Stuyvesant high school? AXELROD: I did go to Stuyvesant high school.


LEE: And it's just smart. AXELROD: Well, I don't know. LEE: I know. You had to get the test, Stuyvesant Science or Brooklyn Tech? AXELROD: Right. Yes. LEE: And depended on your school, that's where you go. AXELROD: Yes. Yes. Well, I caught my way in there and -- but most of the time I was like thinking about the Knicks. And it was a great team. LEE: OK. They were back now. AXELROD: Willis Reed, well, we'll get to that in a second. Willis Reed, DeBusschere, Bradley -- LEE: Earl Monroe (ph). AXELROD: Yes. Yes. LEE: Let's go deeper. Bill Hosket -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- Danny May (ph). AXELROD: What about -- LEE: Mike Riordan. AXELROD: How about Phil Jackson? [00:40:00] LEE: Cazzie Russell. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: Dave Stallworth. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: Trainer big time Danny Whelan. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: Chris Holtzman (ph). AXELROD: I remember -- LEE: Nate Bowman. AXELROD: Dick McGuire was a general manager?


LEE: Yes. AXELROD: Yes. I king go tow to two with you. LEE: Oh we're fellow follow believer -- AXELROD: Who is your favorite -- who is your favorite … LEE: Walt Frazier. AXELROD: Yes. He's great . LEE: But Brooklyn, my guys were Walt Frazier, Joe Namath -- Joe Namath. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: Muhammad Ali (ph). AXELROD: Yes. LEE: And Willie Mays. Those were my guys. AXELROD: Yes. LEE: And just a kid go in Brooklyn … AXELROD: Didn't see you my -- were like black and white brothers separated at Brook. That would have been my list -- LEE: Name of two. AXELROD: -- as well. Yes. I love that, I love Namath and who couldn't. LEE: Joe Willy (ph). AXELROD: Yes. LEE: We take a quick story. Yes, we had a teacher at fourth grade. Her name was -- her misses name was Ms. Erba and -- AXELROD: You went public school? LEE: Yes. At the fourth grade, big breast, very attractive, blonde hair. So, the first meet name it, I said Joe, do you remember I had teacher says she used to date you. And he said, "Spike was she looked like?" He said "What's the color? I said "Blonde." He said, "Blonde?" That could be the (inaudible) over." He said, "I gave more than that. A blonde." AXELROD: Yes. LEE: Back then. AXELROD: Yes. He owned the time bomb there.


LEE: Then I said, "She had big breast. You got to give more than that." AXELROD: Yes. Did you ever -- you never got to the bottom line on that one I bet? LEE: Not I -- long, it's a long time ago little Spike, long, long, long time ago. AXELROD: Did you -- so -- LEE: Now would you -- did you become a Bulls fan? AXELROD: I did. I -- when around the mid '70s, I -- you know, the thing is when you're -- when the players who you loved are gone. LEE: Gone, yes. AXELROD: Then you don't have the same loyalty. Like I gave up on the Mets when they traded Tom Seaver to Cincinnati n '77. LEE: So Met, we -- AXELROD: I'm a -- LEE: Did you want the Cubs to beat the Mets? AXELROD: I did, oh yes, I did. I wanted it but I didn't get it. LEE: Too much fishing baby. AXELROD: I know but it's just the beginning, Spike, it's just the beginning. LEE: Beginning of what? AXELROD: The beginning of great years here in Chicago. It's only been a 107 years since you -- LEE: I know, I don't want -- AXELROD: Don't -- don't be greedy. LEE: I (inaudible) you Bull of 1908 (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: You're supposed to be a voice for justice, man. You should be for the Cubs. We deserve it. But -- so the Knicks today, you've got this big kid -- LEE: Porzingis. AXELROD: -- from Latvia, 20 years old, 7 foot 3, when they picked him -- LEE: There was one of those guys -- AXELROD: -- people were booing in New York.


LEE: They had this famous shout when this yonkey was crying, when he made the pick but -- by is now seen -- oh I want him all the time which is B.S. AXELROD: Yes. Phil Jackson who was had a kind of bad first here in New York running the Knicks. LEE: Bad isn't a word. AXELROD: You are kind of critical, right? LEE: It was the worst year in the history of the franchise. AXELROD: Are you feeling better about him now? You rate in six? LEE: We'll make play this year. AXELROD: Maybe we'll you -- you come out of here for around? LEE: You don't want us. You don't want -- do you want a deal with orange and blue, baby. AXELROD: We would like -- LEE: I want my men nowhere to get well because he's from Brooklyn -- AXELROD: Yes. LEE: -- and we got to get him physically. AXELROD: We're going to get him on this podcast, Jokim Noah, you know, he is very -- LEE: Very intelligent. AXELROD: Tremendous work in the -- LEE: Yes. AXELROD: Honest issue of crime and violence. LEE: Right. AXELROD: He's been, you know, he is put a lot of his own money into it. LEE: Yes. AXELROD: He's running an art and sports program with his mom. LEE: Now he's doing great. AXELROD: He's a good man. Since you brought up the -- since you brought up the teacher of the big breast, the blonde teacher. LEE: Right. AXELROD: I want to ask you about -- we walked out of there last night and got into a conversation about


whether now you were stealing from Aron Stephanie (ph), so he would have to take the hit for this, whether it's a sexist depiction of women -- LEE: Oh no, I didn't -- AXELROD: I too or is it a sexist depiction of men who are depicted as sort of thinking with their dicks. LEE: Well, here's a thing, if a film is about women who's trying to start I would draw a sex strike. They have to be appealing to the men or defeat the purpose. AXELROD: Right. LEE: If you look like, I won't use the word, if you look like sort of not attractive, then say, OK, I don't want your funky ass anyway. The women have to be attractive. And I'm glad you brought that up because that come before to where we given -- the (inaudible) typical images of women in this film, I would disagree. But I understand that comment. AXELROD: Yes. Well, I guess the (inaudible) of it is that the thing that they had to offer was sex. Now, the Angela Basset -- LEE: Right. AXELROD: -- character is really a doubtful character. So it's not all of the characters. LEE: Right. [00:45:07] AXELROD: But again, you borrow not to give your answer for you, but you are too are borrowing from a -- LEE: Something written 411 B.C. But when you think about many wars being fought over women and sex is, I mean, besides breathing and eating, dependent for you, dependent for you all -- (CROSSTALK) AXELROD: Yes. Yes. Well, you're not -- LEE: Some people -- AXELROD: I'm not going to ask you to write that. I'm not going to ask you to write that. LEE: Oh you know what though, I may have some problem in the home. My wife start talking about some type of strike, so wait a minute now. AXELROD: I've met your wife (inaudible) business herself and she brought her -- one of her films to University of Chicago about the civil rights movement. LEE: Yes, welcome to the watch (ph). AXELROD: And it was -- LEE: The (inaudible) called a Birmingham. AXELROD: And we brought some students in from the publics schools on the South Side. It was a


great, great program. So we were grateful to her. LEE: You know, I have love for Chicago and as I know we have the closest output in no way shape or form, I want people think that that I came here to do some harm to Chicago or this is done for all love, this is done for to save lives. And then they close it out, David. I was just like pull these questions. With Jennifer Hudson, whose mother, brother, and nephew were murdered on the South Side, will she be part of a film? They will make a mockery of the desk -- she put on the desk, will she make a film? Will she be part of a film? That they've laughed at her loss. With the women in purpose of the pain, the organizations comes out and say in Sabina, these are mothers who belong to organizations with children were murdered, shut down on the west of South Side, Chicago. Would they betray the children's legacy by being in the film to mean a mockery? All the children (inaudible), you said to asked that question, I mean and the answer is no. AXELROD: Well, I was thinking about that when I watched Jennifer Hudson's performance because that came from a very, very personal place in this. LEE: Yes. AXELROD: She was entirely in that character. LEE: And I was -- AXELROD: And maybe a little bit was that character. LEE: Yes and that's why I cast her. That's why I thought of her. But when I got her number, I did not call her right away because I had to really think long and hard how I was going to approach her because no way that one would think that I was trying to exploit her family tragedy. But when we spoke, she says, "Spike, I go this everyday. Come on, I want to do this role, let's go." So, as soon as we talked, she got the script, Jennifer was gone call, she said "Come on, let's do this. Let's save lives." AXELROD: Well, I -- my fervent hope is that this film does help save lives and that we can make some progress on this because anybody who has a child. Now I have a grandchild looks at these mothers on television and it just breaks you -- LEE: It does. AXELROD: -- it breaks you apart, so something has to be done. LEE: You have to. AXELROD: Spike Lee, it's great to have you here. LEE: Thank you. Thank you. AXELROD: You come back to Chicago. LEE: Oh yes. AXELROD: You don't have to wait for the playoffs, we -- LEE: We asked from regular season games here.


AXELROD: Yes, yes. Come -- LEE: In United Center. AXELROD: Come on back, we can sit together, I shall I can explain to you as we -- as the Bulls are winning, why it's happening. It will be a lot of fun. LEE: Well, look I love basketball, I love Chicago and Chicago is a great, great, great, great city. AXELROD: Come back. Come back a lot. LEE: All right. AXELROD: Thanks a lot. LEE: Thank you. My man. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for listening to "The Axe Files." For more podcasts like this, subscribe to "The Axe Files" on iTunes. And for more programming from the University of Chicago, Institute of Politics, visit politics.uchicago.edu.

The Axe Files - Ep. 13: Spike Lee · That was -- "Chi-Raq" which you're talking about -- AXELROD:...

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Transcript of The Axe Files - Ep. 13: Spike Lee · That was -- "Chi-Raq" which you're talking about -- AXELROD:...