STUDY GUIDE AND INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

TO ACCOMPANY VIDEO TAPE

“PSYCHOTHERAPY WITH THE EXPERTS”

FEATURING ERNEST ROSSI

Jon Carlson

Diane Kjos

Governors State University

University Park, IL

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MIND-BODY THERAPY

with

Ernest Rossi

Introduction

This video is one in a series portraying the leading theories of

psychotherapy and their application. This series presents the predominant theories

and how they are practiced. Each video in the series features a leading practitioner

and educator in the field of counseling or psychotherapy. The series is unique in

that it features real clients with real problems. During the course of the series

these clients bring up a number of issues with the therapists.

A theory is a framework that helps us understand something or explains

how something works. Just as there are many different people and personalities,

there are different theories of understanding how people live and how change

occurs, each with its own guidelines for understanding and procedures for

operation. The primary differences between these theories are related to the

relative importance each theory places on cognitive (thinking), behavioral (doing),

and affective (feeling) factors. Each theory has devotees who think and act as the

theory prescribes in order to help people change their lives. Certain theories

explain certain phenomena better than others. The individual counselor or

psychotherapist needs to develop his or her own approach to helping others with

problems of an emotional, behavioral, or cognitive nature. Specific objectives in

therapy include (1) removing, modifying, or retarding existing symptoms, (2)

mediating disturbed patterns of behavior, and (3) promoting positive personality

growth and development.

The video begins with a brief discussion with the practitioner concerning

the theory. We then move to the actual counseling session. After the session,

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Rossi discusses the session with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and an audience made

up of counselors, graduate students, and counselor educators.

Because the video series contains actual counseling interviews, professional

integrity is required to protect the confidentiality of the clients who have

courageously shared their personal lives with us.

Purpose

The series is designed for pre-professional training in graduate and

undergraduate classes in counseling theory. Students will learn about the theory

and watch a leading practitioner work with a client in a “first session” interview.

The series is also appropriate for workshops or individual study for the

professional development of practicing counselors, social workers, clinical

psychologists, or psychotherapists. Professionals will learn from the practitioner by

gaining new ideas and insights which can be helpful in working with current or

future clients.

How to Use the Video

1. As a stand alone activity for professional development or orientation to

Mind-Body Therapy. If you are using the video this way, it might be helpful to first

read about Existential-Humanistic Therapy. See page 35 of this guide for a list of

suggested readings. Or, you may wish to watch the video, read about the theory

and then watch the video a second time.

As you watch the video, note the questions included on the enclosed test.

This will help you identify key points related to this theory. If you wish continuing

education credit, complete the test and submit it as directed.

2. As an integral part of a course in counseling theory with the textbook,

student study guide and instructor’s guide. The text by Jon Carlson and Diane

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Kjos (1998), Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham Heights,

MA: Allyn & Bacon with accompanying Study Guide to Counseling and

Psychotherapy, and Instructor’s Guide to Introduction to Counseling and

Psychotherapy, published by Allyn & Bacon of Needham Heights, Massachusetts,

are coordinated with the video tapes and can assist in guiding the student through

the learning process, including key concepts, application, and techniques.

3. As an adjunct in classes to demonstrate a practical application of Mind-

Body Therapy or to demonstrate specific interventions and techniques. Guidelines

and suggested discussion topics will be included in Carlson and Kjos (1998),

Instructor’s Guide to Introduction to Counseling and Psychotherapy, Needham

Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon..

4. As a basis for a series of class sections or a workshop for either

professional development or counselor education. You may choose to use all or

parts of the video to support specific teaching objectives. Suggestions for

scheduling, discussion questions and other activities will be included in Carlson

and Kjos (1998), Instructor’s Guide to Introduction to Counseling and

Psychotherapy, Needham Heights, MA: Allyn & Bacon.

Mind-Body Therapy with Ernest Rossi

Rossi hold a Ph.D. from Temple University in Philadelphia and a Diplomat

in Clinical Psychology from the American Board of Examiners in Professional

Psychology. He is a member of the International Association for Analytical

Psychology. In addition to his work in psychology and psychotherapy, Rossi is also

a biologist and mathematician. He hold membership in the Mathematical

Association of America and serves as an adjunct professor of biology, Baylor

University, Waco, Texas.

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Rossi travels throughout the world giving lectures, demonstrations and

workshops. He finds that he is spending more of his time teaching professional

than in his own private practice.

Learning Objectives

1. Identify theoretical concepts which are descriptive of Mind-Body Therapy.

2. Recognize specific interventions or techniques related to Mind-Body

Therapy.

3. Describe the range of applications of Mind-Body Therapy.

Abstract of Mind-Body Therapy Video

This video is approximately 107 minutes long and is divided into three parts:

Part I: Introduction of the theory with Jon Carlson, Diane Kjos, and Ernest Rossi

(21 minutes).

Part II: An initial therapy session with Ernest Rossi and Robin (43 minutes), a

white female, where the presenting issue is Robin’s need to please people.

Part III: Discussion of the therapy session (43 minutes) with Jon Carlson, Diane

Kjos, Ernest Rossi, and a panel of counselors, counselor educators, and graduate

students.

Transcript

TH 1 Okay, Robin. I guess we are on. Do you want to say anything about what

you hope we can accomplish here today?

CL 1 Um, I guess maybe just get to know you a little bit.

TH 2 Alright.

CL 2 And, um, something that you might have that you could share with me that

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might help in . . .

TH 3 About my background.

CL 3 Yes.

TH 4 Well, it’s very mixed and rich. I was originally trained as a psychotherapist

and psychoanalyst. First I was a Freudian analyst, then I became a Jungian analyst,

and I studied how to become a hypnotherapist with a very famous hypnotherapist,

and I’ve written a lot of books in the past twenty, twenty-five years in the area of

dreams, psychotherapy, hypnosis. Also mind body work. I am very much

interested in how mind and body communicate and stuff like that.

CL 4 Ooh, that’s some really, that’s some good stuff though. Do you, do you think

there is a lot of importance in dreams?

TH 5 Oh yes. My very first book was about dreams.

CL 5 Was about dreams?

TH 6 Do you recall your dreams easily?

CL 6 Sometimes I can. You know, sometimes I have dreams that I don’t like,

[Uhm] and I don’t know if they are like telling me that something is going to

happen or you know I’ve had some, some strange dreams.

TH 7 Really?

CL 7 Like if I look back on them like I might be at a weird place, like I might be at

the Sears Tower, and I might have visited the Sears Tower maybe a month prior

but it got put in [Yes] and I’m with somebody else that I don’t have a clue who

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I’m with, [Yeah] and just strange, strange situations.

TH 8 Yeah, dreams are like that. They bring parts of our life, and usually there is

something new, and that’s what makes them interesting because often it’s the

growing edge of our personality. Do you want to say more about that dream, or is

there another dream you would like to share?

CL 8 Well, why is it that we remember some dreams and don’t remember other

dreams. Like, I can say boy I had a really good dream last night, [Yeah] but I just

can’t remember what it was. [Yeah] Is that to do with the levels of . . .

TH 9 Yeah, it has to do with your level of sleep, but you know it’s really a

mystery. There are a lot of theories, a lot of different opinions. I’m of the theory

that in dreams it’s like an experimental theater. We are rehearsing or we are

looking exploring possibilities for our life, and it’s just precisely those things that

seem strange or bizarre or unusual.

CL 9 That’s the interesting thing.

TH 10 So if you have any strange or unusual dreams, those would be the ones

that . . .

CL 10 I’m trying to think. [Um] My husband has more strange ones than I do to

be quite honest. Oh, but I, I, I have had dreams in the past where like I’m [Uhm]

by myself, [Um] and it’s like I don’t know anybody around me. [Um] I’m trying to

think, and I sometimes feel isolated. I’m like calling out to somebody and can’t

find them, [Yeah] and they are nowhere to be found. [Yeah] I don’t like those kind

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of dreams.

TH 11 Right. Obviously it’s like some part of you feels isolated, [Mhm] and you

are trying to make connections, but you’re not.

CL 11 No, it’s hard.

TH 12 Can you see this as the story of your life in any way? Any sense . . .

CL 12 If I had to relate live, that I don’t like to be, I’m not a loner. I don’t like to

be a loner. I like to be, I’ve been tested diagnosed whatever, as like a people

pleaser person. [Umh] And I would say maybe [Yeah] that might be why those

dreams are [Yeah] scary to me.

TH 13 Yeah, it’s like dreams are usually trying to solve a problem, but sometimes

we get stuck in the middle, like this dream is presenting the problem to you Robin

in some way. You want to make contact, but you are alone among strangers. Now,

what would be a nice way for that dream to continue? Suppose you . . .

CL 13 Well, if I could make it continue, I would run into somebody that would

[UmHm] say, you know, here I am, here I am. I’d be calling out to somebody, and

they would find me, [Umh] and they would be like, okay, then we can continue on

the path together, [Right, yes.] whatever. Wherever that might take us, you know.

TH 14 Why don’t you go with that right now [Uhmh] and see where you take that

path together, you and your new found friend.

CL 14 Um, I guess I’d just be searching the unknown. [Uhmh] If [Um um] I could

take somebody with me, I, you know I wouldn’t, I’d have somebody there for

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support . . .

TH 15 To help you face the unknown.

CL 15 Whatever might come, you know.

TH 16 Yes, that’s right. So really that’s what you are looking for, ideal friends,

partners, to give you the support for the unknown. What is, whatever.

CL 16 The unknown.

TH 17 Yeah, what would the unknown of your life be?

CL 17 Oh, it could be just waking up tomorrow morning because [Um] I have a

two and a half year old, and it’s like I can wake up and something new happens.

[Yes] Like, I’m a very organized person, [Um] and anything and everything could

happen. [Yes] My whole day could be totally changed.

TH 18 That’s your life with a two year old. I raised a couple of kids myself, so I

really know.

CL 18 So, it’s like, you know, it could change. And I could get phone calls

because I’m real involved in things. I might say today I’m staying home. I’m not

going to do anything. And then I get a phone call, it, like, and I’m like okay I’ll go.

And then I’ll run errands all day and things like that. So it changes from day to

day. So it’s like [Yeah] the unknown, I never say never anymore.

TH 19 Right. Unexpected.

CL 19 Like, because I usually eat those words. I’m not going to do this, no I’m

not, and then I end up doing it.

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TH 20 Yeah. In other words there is a part of you that wants a little shelter, a little

time for yourself, but you are involved with people, and there’s a lot of demands

on you. You’ve got your own child to take care of and people are continually

pulling on you for stuff. [Mhm] And that could be using up a lot of your energy

that maybe you really want to keep inside for your own development for what you

really need.

CL 20 Mhm, yeah, I probably, I guess when I get down and feel like I’m

completely empty, it’s because I’m drained and I haven’t taken some time for

myself.

TH 21 Exactly.

CL 21 Yeah, yeah.

TH 22 Exactly. Very, very important we take that time for ourselves. As a matter

of fact, that’s just what one of my books is about. That the idea is that every hour

and a half we go through a natural mind body cycle. For the first part of the hour

and a half the mind has energy, the body has energy. It wants to go out there. It

wants to do something, and then you do something, and then other hormones flow,

and you need a quiet time, twenty minute break so to speak. So, it’s like if this

happens continuously throughout the day, every couple of hours you have a

chance to do a nice unit of work and be with your child to do the shopping or do

the cooking, but then you really need to take that time to take a break because

that’s when the body heals itself. [Mhm] So this could be, I’m just giving you

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ammunition so you can say no when you really need to.

CL 22 Yeah, well I would think that, I mean I can understand that because when

my son takes his nap, that is like my time. [Right] I have to take that time for

myself because if I don’t, [Yes] I mean if I do do work fine, I’m doing work. [Yes]

It’s something that I want to do.

TH 23 That’s right.

CL 23 But I make the decision if I’m going to or if I’m not because . . .

TH 24 Fantastic. That’s the best. Yes.

CL 24 It gets hard.

TH 25 Yes, you have to be tough because the outside world will just use you up.

[Mhm] And you’ve been so put upon by a lot of people [Hm] that you tend to get

used up that way. [Mhm] And the ideal circumstance like now you are learning

how to say no appropriately [Mhm] and how to take time for yourself, that’s going

to give you extra reserve, time for things to be created within yourself. Do you

have any idea, Robin, like where you are headed five, ten years. What would your

whole system like to do. What would you like to be five, ten years. In other words

what are you shooting for when you . . .

CL 25 I, you know, I can’t see five, ten years down the road. [Yeah] I mean I

come up with ideas, you know, things that I would like to do. Like I like to work

with crafts. [Mhm] I mean I could go back to work. [Mhm] I was real successful in

the banking industry, uh . . .

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TH 26 Banking industry, really?

CL 26 Yeah, I, I enjoyed that a lot. Did that for ten years. [I see] And it’s like

okay there are options available to me, but after I had my son, all of a sudden my

mind changed there and said okay. This is my first priority. [Right] This is what I

want to do, [Absolutely] and everything else then will revolve around that. [Yes]

So, who knows. Like if he does well in school, [Yeah] I might be able to go back

to work. [I see] If he doesn’t, I might be real involved taking care of him and

making sure he gets the proper education and stuff. [Yeah]

TH 27 Are you married?

CL 27 Yes. My husband, he’s not real good at giving that good support. Actually,

he’s in the doghouse right now.

TH 28 Oh, that’s the problem.

CL 28 Well, I mean he’s supportive in the fact of me staying at home, but far as he

happens to be one of those people that likes to take from me too and not give

anything back sometimes.

TH 29 Oh, I see. [Yeah] Wow, I wish he were here now.

CL 29 And he’s glad he’s not.

TH 30 Oh, he knows what’s up here maybe.

CL 30 Oh yeah. No, but it makes it difficult, but it’s sort of like if I can take myself

out of the day to day and think about what the actual long term goal is, [Yes] that

it makes it a little bit easier. [Yes] But sometimes that day to day I can get really

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overwhelmed.

TH 31 Yeah, with a two year old child you’ve really got your hands full. But even

if it’s only that when he goes down to take a nap, there is some time for you,

[Mhm] and I think you are wise. You do have to just wonder how is life going to

unfold.

CL 31 Yeah, yeah, because we try to make plans as a family where do we want to

be, you know, far as say socially, economically, what are our goals. What do we

want to do?

TH 32 You talk about these things with your husband, okay.

CL 32 Mhm.

TH 33 And how is that going?

CL 33 Well, it’s one of those things. He doesn’t, you know, far as he is concerned

all he wants to be is debt free, and soon as he is debt free then everything else is

fine. So I know he is worried about financial ends where [I see] as long as I am

taking care of Cameron that’s not a problem, [Right] and as far as some of the

other things like getting stuff done around the house, he’s like oh it will get done

when we get to it. [Yeah] You know, he’s a procrastinator with things like that.

[Yah] Where I want things done and want them done on a specific timetable.

TH 34 But he’s worried about debt. Do you have unusual debts or is this just

paying off your mortgage or . . .

CL 34 No, he, well, all we really have is our mortgage, but, he, his parents when

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they were younger did have financial problems and then got themselves completely

out of debt themselves, and now you know . . .

TH 35 He’s got that same philosophy.

CL 35 He’s got that same philosophy, he’s got to get himself, you know. I mean

some economists say this is a goal you should attain.

TH 36 There is some virtue in it. But still there is life to be lived.

CL 36 It’s just a fact of life. You know, like you want to enjoy life now. You can’t

wait until you are, you know, so . . .

TH 37 Yeah.

CL 37 But, we struggle with that. But I think everybody does. You have one

that’s a saver and one that’s a spender, and you need to compromise.

TH 38 I see. He’s the saver, and you’re the spender. Is that . . .

CL 38 Well, yes and no.

TH 39 It’s not really a fair way to divide it up.

CL 39 No. Well, it depends on what type, what type, it is. You know, like I’m

very conservative [Mhm] and make sure that I get my money’s worth, [Yeah] but I

don’t hesitate spending a dollar if I’m going to get a dollar’s worth.

TH 40 If it’s needed for your real life at this time.

CL 40 Yeah.

TH 41 Whereas he’s a little bit more conservative that way I suppose.

CL 41 Yeah, unless it’s like for a bass boat or something. Then he would be like,

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"Oh, but we need this. It’s important." Those male toys that he needs.

TH 42 Right, that’s just what I was curious about. Are you able to find areas

where you want to spend your money, do you see eye to eye in the way you have

fun together, the way you . . .

CL 42 Um, we have differences there. [Mhm] Far as like, his idea of fun and my

idea of fun are like totally, like I like the arts. I would like to go to a theater, to a

play, where he would prefer to go to a ball game.

TH 43 Yeah, classic stereotype.

CL 43 Oh yeah.

TH 44 Oh wow.

CL 44 I’d call him like an old jock or something, you know. [Yeah] He likes all

that but doesn’t get into any of the things that I do. So there has to be an

appreciation on both, so.

TH 45 Right, that’s the secret.

CL 45 He’s learning. But . . .

TH 46 You can open up new areas for him, [Mhm] and you say he’s learning.

What areas have you got his interest in.

CL 46 Um, what have we done? Well, we’ve gone to, well no I’ve done that by

myself. I was going to say we did this, but no I did that myself. Um, concerts. He,

he doesn’t necessarily always like the kind of music I like to listen to, [Mhm] but

he will go with me to a concert or something like that. We are at a different stage

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in our marriage. We’re really I want to say almost struggling right now because I

think we need to have some couple time together [Yes] where he thinks that you

know we wanted children so therefore we should spend all our time with our son

and not take that time for each other. [I see] So I’m trying to work on that right

now.

TH 47 Right. Some good quality time together as a couple. [Mhm] Apart from the

child being with you.

CL 47 Mhm, I see other mothers doing it and how much fun it’s been for them,

[Yeah] and it makes [Uhuh] them enjoy their children more.

TH 48 Of course.

CL 48 Then [Yeah] you appreciate your husband too.

TH 49 Yeah. I sense you are a deeply romantic kind of a person.

CL 49 Yeah.

TH 50 Very, [Yeah] very important.

CL 50 Yeah, not important at all for him.

TH 51 Uh oh. Too much take me out to the ball game with this guy.

CL 51 Well, actually, I, I, I can make that a really fun time. I mean, we have

gone . . .

TH 52 Going to the ball game, mhm, that can be okay, mhm. It’s trying to find

some of your quality time where he comes into your ballpark. I think this is the

very important crux because if your life is going to continue happily together,

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[There’s got to be] it is going to be very important that he learn to share with you

[Mhm] and grow just as you have shared his life.

CL 52 Yeah. I’ve had different people give different advice about either a) going

and buying the tickets to a show and say okay I’ve arranged the babysitter, we’re

going and a discussion, you know, here’s the tickets. But I just don’t, and then I

thought you know, what if it backfires on me and I am sitting here and I’m

thinking, well, I can take somebody else that would enjoy it, [Yeah] and I’d still

enjoy the theater myself you know, but um . . .

TH 53 It’s something.

CL 53 I guess the thing that I have the hardest time with is I can’t make him do

something I want him to do. The only person I can change is me.

TH 54 Yeah, mhm, yah, mhm, that’s true.

CL 54 But, ah . . .

TH 55 So you’ve received a certain amount of advice on how to handle it, an

external kind of way, buying tickets and so forth. [Mhm] I would like to take,

since you’ve already gone that route and it’s left something to be desired, I would

like to explore another route where you are interested in arts, you are interested in

creativity, I would like to help that side of you develop today. [Okay] Would that

be okay?

CL 55 Yeah.

TH 56 I call it doing inner work. [Mhm] In other words you’ve got to focus inside.

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I would like to have you, right at this moment, just tune into this whole issue with

your husband. [Mhm] How you’d really like it to be, and you know a lot of this is

private by the way. You only share with me what’s appropriate to be shared

publicly, but a lot of this work takes place privately within you, and I would like to

see you really get a, go on an inner journey so to speak. What’s your husband’s

name?

CL 56 Ed.

TH 57 Ed. Okay. What would be an ideal situation for you and Ed to be together,

and I don’t want you to talk to me about it. I want you just to tune into yourself

for a couple of minutes and see where your mind takes you. Let’s see if a new

fantasy is created, a new idea, a new possibility. Or is it maybe something you’ve

had in mind for some time?

CL 57 You mean take, go to a place that I would want to go?

TH 58 Yeah. Go to that ideal situation with Ed. Just you and Ed romantically

together, and just allow that to develop within you. That’s right. Really going with

that.

CL 58 Hm, you talk about the impossible. It could happen, but it would take a lot

of work, take a lot of work.

TH 59 But you found a nice . . . is it something new or is it something that you

daydreamed about before?

CL 59 Um, probably yeah. I’ve day dreamed about it before.

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TH 60 Okay, but I heard you use the word impossible. It seems like it would be

impossible?

CL 60 Mhm.

TH 61 Okay. So obviously it’s going to take a little preparation somehow for that

to happen.

CL 61 Mhm.

TH 62 Would you be willing to go back inside again, and what would be the

circumstances that could possibly lead to this nice outcome?

CL 62 It would have to be a lot of me doing a lot of the work and me being patient

when Ed said well I don’t really want to do that, and basically stroking him to

agree to do something like that. And I have a problem with that because

sometimes when he puts up a front, instead of trying to look at it in a positive and

keep stroking him, it’s like . . .

TH 63 You’ve had too much of this. You’ve been doing too much stroking of

other people.

CL 63 Uhuh, and it’s like I can let loose with him and then it gets nowhere.

TH 64 Yeah, it gets to be hard work. Okay. So it seems like on the outside there

is something that’s stuck in the relationship. You’ve tried, and I’m sure he is trying

in his way. So we have to go to another level. Are you a spiritual person?

CL 64 Mhm. Very much.

TH 65 Very much so? Okay. That’s where I’d like to have you take another inner

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journey and commune with your spirit in whatever way that happens, and let’s

see . . .

CL 65 Well, see then you hit the nail right on the head, because that’s one thing

that I go back to the scripture which says nothing is impossible with God, and so I

shouldn’t be sitting here saying it’s impossible. Ed will never change. That’s not

true. [Yeah] I know that that’s not true. [Yah] If I have enough faith, if I believe

enough, it will happen, [Mhm] but it’s sort of like the phrase we’ve coined is it will

happen in God’s time. Well, it’s sort of like God is moving awful slow right now.

[laughter]

TH 66 Yes, too slow.

CL 66 Just not, [Yah] but it does make it difficult at times. But I know that it’s not

impossible, but it takes a lot of prayer, dedication on my part, and steadfastness.

TH 67 I want to explore something a little bit different. I would like to have you

commune with your spirit in a way that’s . . . you’ve tried prayer, you’ve tried

strong faith. [Mhm] Somehow another way of relating to your spirit. Going to

your inner spirit just with what you just told me right now and say look, in God’s

time or is it possible now. Come on spirit, you are supposed to be so great. What

can you tell me? Why don’t you take a little journey with that. Let’s see if anything

new develops.

CL 67 Still go back, not that it’s new, but that I have to be patient. That I have to

be understanding.

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TH 68 Yeah, those are very good conventional virtues. But, uh, something more

intriguing, something more interesting. Let me ask you this. Were you one of those

kinds of kids that was fascinated with fairy tales when you were a kid? What

fascinated you when you were a kid? What was intriguing?

CL 68 Um, well, I loved math, mathematics.

TH 69 Really? Mathematics? Wow.

CL 69 Analytical thinking. The process . . .

TH 70 I see. That’s probably how you got into banking. Fantastic.

CL 70 So, I analyze things.

TH 71 You like to analyze things. [Mhm, mhm] Are you using that talent in any

way in your current life?

CL 71 Oh, I do a lot. Like this is the situation I’m in. What are my options. What

are ways that I can do things to make it better, or get things accomplished. You

know. [Yeah] I do use it a lot. [Yeah] But sometimes I do think in my spiritual life

and things like that, that can hinder you sometimes, because you are not letting

God work, [Mhm] in other words, you are trying to analyze God, [Yeah] and you

can’t do that.

TH 72 That’s like two different universes. They don’t always mix.

CL 72 Sure. But I do analyze a lot. [Yeah] I can analyze this to death, and I guess

that’s the thing that bothers me the most is that I can talk about it until I am blue in

the face, but I am not getting anything accomplished if I keep talking about it.

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[Yes.] It takes action.

TH 73 Right. Action and imagination.

CL 73 Imagination is very low on my ability or skills.

TH 74 Okay. Then, maybe that’s how I can best help you if I help you find the

access to your imagination, the intuitive, because you’ve obviously got a very

bright analytical mind. You’ve obviously got a wonderful spiritual connection.

You’ve got all the human virtues of patience and all this, but you finally found the

developmental point you need to evolve with your imagination. Would you like to

explore some new conventional approaches?

CL 74 Sure.

TH 75 Place your hands about like so.

CL 75 Okay.

TH 76 That’s right. And now, Robin, look at your hands almost as if you’ve never

seen them before, and tune into your hands with a certain amount of sensitivity,

and in a moment or two, just share with me a sentence or two of what you are

actually experiencing in your hands. The same or different or what.

CL 76 I’m bad. See, I can’t . . . there’s a warmth that it’s picking up from, from

the lights. [Yeah?] They can feel the warmth.

TH 77 Good. Go with that warmth. Let’s say like if the warmth is a messenger

coming from your body, I wonder where that warmth is going to lead you next?

Remember, this is an exercise in sensitivity and just letting your imagination go.

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CL 77 Well, it causes the hand to almost tingle.

TH 78 Tingle? Yes, that’s good. That’s even more intriguing. Go with that tingling

now.

CL 78 It’s like you know how the, um, the blood flows through, mhm, and goes

back out, and it’s like you can, you can, feel that. You can sense. And it’s

intriguing sometimes to know that you know, you have four fingers and a thumb

and . . .

TH 79 Yeah, go with those intriguing things.

CL 79 That they are important. They all serve a function. [Yes] You take it for

granted.

TH 80 Yeah, sometimes you take it too much for granted.

CL 80 Yeah, because I sometimes see people with a missing finger and you know

they’ve had to learn things differently to be able to function, so, um there’s . . . um,

there’s . . .

TH 81 Mhm, stay with your hands for a little while yet, and again, well, I am

asking you to tune in with great sensitivity. You felt warmth, you felt tingling.

Mhm, I wonder if any other experiences or sensations, feelings . . .

CL 81 Well, being like this it can almost by looking at them they can become stiff.

TH 82 Yeah, go with that. Explore that stiffness.

CL 82 Because you have to be able, you know, just holding them like this there’s a

stiffness, and it’s like they want to have a tendency to want to curl in.

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TH 83 Good, let them curl in, that’s it. You can make a fist. Now go with that.

You have a fist now. Go with that fist.

CL 83 It uses energy. It, it stretches them.

TH 84 Yes, express that energy, Robin. Nice fists. Really enjoy that for a moment,

let’s see where it leads you to next.

CL 84 It gives you, but it gives you release when you hold it nice and tight.

TH 85 Yeah. Hold it nice and tight and let that tightness take you someplace now,

holding it nice and tight.

CL 85 It’s like you can’t let go.

TH 86 Good, stay with that. You can’t let go. And you’re really going with that,

something you can’t let go of.

CL 86 I can’t let go, I can’t let go of control.

TH 87 You can’t let go of control. Okay go with that now. You can’t let go of

control.

CL 87 I like to be in control.

TH 88 Yeah, yeah. Continue with that. This is like a metaphor, the story of your

life. You like to be in control, and go with it now. I don’t know if your mind wants

to take you to where you learned that or what you need to control or just what.

CL 88 Well it’s a sign of frustration. It’s a sign of you know the tightness is a sign

in, of anger. Um, it creates pain.

TH 89 Yes. Really receiving that, anger, pain, frustration. Let yourself experience

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all those things for a moment and then where they take you next.

CL 89 They want release.

TH 90 Yeah, they want release.

CL 90 I mean I dug the nails into the side of my hand.

TH 91 Yeah, I noticed they’re actually red.

CL 91 So, sometimes I have a tendency to do that with my teeth. I clench my

teeth.

TH 92 Grit your teeth. But so it feels good to stop so to speak. They want release.

[Mhm] Okay tune into yourself now, Robin, and let’s let yourself experience to

what extent, are you still feeling release, and if so going with that release?

CL 92 Well, it’s like it wants release, and my hands can make it do it, but I don’t

know that I can make it do that.

TH 93 That’s right. You don’t know how yet, but something in your hands is

guiding you. That tension, the fists. See you can clench and you can’t let it go.

CL 93 Yeah, but, uh, it’s letting go of control. I don’t like to do that.

TH 94 Oh. That’s why we’re creating a safe little therapy situation. It’s like a little

experimental theater where you can explore control and letting go. [Mhm] That’s

kind of an exercise we are starting to create. So yeah, it’s a continued effort to get

that tight control and then when you get it really tight hold as tight as you can for a

moment or two, and then let yourself fully experience what it’s like to release

actually.

25

CL 94 All the pressure is gone. [Mhm] Almost feels like a let down.

TH 95 Really. Yeah, go with that. A let down, let’s see what that . . .

CL 95 The pressure was all there, and it built up, and then as soon as you release

it’s all gone. It’s like for nothing, you know, so . . .

TH 96 You might have been building up pressure you mean?

CL 96 Yes. You build up to a point where you are like this and then you explode,

[Yeah] and then you are left with nothing.

TH 97 Yeah, unfortunately.

CL 97 That’s where I get to.

TH 98 Yeah, okay, so this is the point where you need to learn something new.

You feel that, see that tension is like an energy coming up in your system. It wants

to do something creative. It wants to break out of the box you’re into and wants

you to break out of your frustrations, but then the energy is used up, and it doesn’t

get channeled into anything. That’s the point where I’d really like to be able to

help you.

CL 98 Okay.

TH 99 Because in everyday life you’ve learned this habit of just the tension

building up and then nothing happens. How are we going to channel this energy

into a creative process that’s really one of your talents whether it’s the

mathematics or art. So I would like to have you just go with that. Go with it in

yourself, this energy that builds up.

26

CL 99 It’s just letting go of some of that control. Not letting it build up.

TH 100 Okay let yourself experience what it’s like to let go of control, not let it

build up so much, and just let yourself really explore and really feel in your body

what’s that like. Is it a good feeling, or is it a scary feeling, or what?

CL 100 It’s a good feeling.

TH 101 Good, now go with that good feeling, Robin. This is what we are looking

for.

CL 101 Because it’s a calmness, and if I stay in tune with that, then it keeps the

energy level on an even keel. In other words, it doesn’t get too tense, but I can

hold a fist to have the energy without holding it tight.

TH 102 Building up your energy.

CL 102 And then that way it’s free to release, but there doesn’t feel like there is a

big let down.

TH 103 Yes, you let the energy build up, and it’s free now to explore, and you

mentioned that it felt good. I’d like to have you enjoy that good feeling for a

couple of minutes right now Robin. Really, if there is anything you deserve Robin,

if anyone deserves to feel good, certainly you do, and you know that. You’ve done

so much for so many people. Now it’s time for you to really appreciate . . .

CL 103 The quietness is what I enjoy. The stillness.

TH 104 Let yourself experience that. The quietness, the stillness. Yes.

CL 104 The things that . . .

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TH 105 So your needs, you deeply crave need quietness in this hurly burly two

year old kid and all these people calling you and stuff. So you really, it’s nurturing.

It’s, can be, healing for you to have that quiet.

CL 105 Quiet, mhm.

TH 106 Okay, stay with the quietness for another moment or two, and just

wondering, is it really going to be possible to have a even deeper appreciation of

the quietness? Find some ways of bringing it into your life?

CL 106 The only way I see bringing it in is setting that time.

TH 107 When your child’s asleep. That’s one very good time.

CL 107 But, I guess maybe I think more of like a morning, or being able to even I

guess, I talked about this before. People can sometimes day dream in the middle of

everything going around. [Yes] I can’t.

TH 108 You can’t.

CL 108 But I think that would be wonderful if I could just take myself away for a

little while. You know, just a . . .

TH 109 Again, it’s like the outside world grabs you, [Mhm] so you really need

some quietness and some retreat to be able to enjoy the inner peace [Mhm] and

inner creative imagination [Mhm] and stuff. Yeah. That’s, and it’s out of this that

the new idea is going to come, the new feelings can come, the transformations are

going to happen. Like you said yourself you know you can only change yourself.

Of course it’s only partially true. I think you might be hooked on the idea that you

28

are supposed to direct those changes. You know you are a very bright woman,

[Mhm] and you have been properly brought up, and so you have a certain

ideology, a certain belief of how you should make yourself change. I want to

explode that myth, and I want, I want to explore the idea that there is something

that’s growing in you autonomously all by itself. [Mhm] I think that’s what’s

happening in some of these dreams. Even when they are a little bit frightening to

you. Something wants to happen, but you don’t, you’re not used to doing this.

You are used to being hypnotized by the outside world. So you don’t know what

to do with the new that is spontaneously being generated in you. So I wonder if

there is another way in which we can help create that? Are you willing to explore

another path of inner work? [Mhm] Because I just got a cue, by the way. We only

have ten minutes left.

CL 109 Okay.

TH 110 But let’s use it [Okay] to the best.

CL 110 Okay.

TH 111 Place your hands up like this, this time, Robin. And again tune in with

great sensitivity, and you know the human body really does have a magnetic field.

Whether you are experiencing, whether you can experience that or whether this is

a metaphor, I don’t know.

CL 111 No, mhm.

TH 112 You can experience that magnetic field in some way?

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CL 112 It’s wanting to draw it’s hands together.

TH 113 Okay. Allow it to draw the hands together. So you are allowing it, but you

are not directing it. You are not controlling it. You’re just learning how to let your

inner nature do something it wants to do. That’s it. Nice and slowly. And as those

hands continue coming more and more together, I’m going to ask your deep inner

nature if it’s going to be okay for the next five minutes to simply, that’s right,

experience allowing something to happen to you from within, and you watch it,

and you nurture it. You help it. That’s it. And allowing your hands to remain there

for a moment, and if it’s going to be okay, Robin, to take another step and begin to

explore some possibilities for how you’re going to continue this kind of learning,

allowing yourself to receive your dreams, your intuition, your imagination. If that’s

going to be okay. Will one of those hands, just one now, Robin, drifting down

more or less by itself, just a signal yes. It’s really going to be okay. Take some time

for yourself. That’s right, and in that time you’re going to take for yourself, you’re

going to be sensitive, you’re going to be receptive to any feelings, any images.

CL 113 It still is connected. In other words, um, it’s still, I’m still me.

TH 114 Oh yes. You’re always still you. Yes.

CL 114 But I’m allowing, I haven’t lost the inner me, but I am allowing other

things to come in.

TH 115 Yes. Did you say you lost the inner me?

CL 115 No, I haven’t lost it.

30

TH 116 You haven’t lost it, but you are allowing new things to grow in your inner

garden so to speak. Stay with it now.

CL 116 Because it stays connected.

TH 117 Yes. Oh yeah. You are always aware of yourself. You’re just opening up

you might say a new little garden plot, a new little addition to the garden of your

soul so to speak. And you wonder what kind of flowers will come up here, or will

they be veggies, or what.

CL 117 It’s really like saying that if I don’t change, it’s still going to be okay. In

other words, if I don’t become the person that makes Ed necessarily happy, it’s

going to be okay because I am going to be the person that I am going to be.

TH 118 Yes, that’s right. And this is a way of allowing yourself to become a

person in a way that’s going to surprise even you rather than you directing and

trying to control yourself. Because if you are trying to control yourself, you are

just following an ideology, something you learned ten years ago from childhood,

that if there is going to be a chance to break through this kind of a stalemate you

and your husband. Something truly new has to be created, and we know that’s

happening in you as I said every hour and a half or two, we know at night we

dream every hour and a half, so that cycle continues. And most people have the

wrong idea about psychotherapy. They think that the therapist is supposed to be an

expert that’s going to tell them what to do. I mean, you’ve had a lot of experiences

on this level. But I’m not presuming to know what you’ve got to do. I go exactly

31

where you brought me today. You said “Oh, that’s where I am missing something.

Imagination.” And suddenly it became very clear. Exactly. Mhm. Here we have an

extremely intelligent woman. You know from the outside it looks like you have a

nice marriage, nice child, mortgage. What else do you want? It’s that inner garden,

your imagination, your creativity that wants evolution, [events] and out of that is

going to come a change in your manner without you even knowing it. [Uhm] Your

husband is going to pick up in some way that he doesn’t even know, and he is

going to be curious about it. And it’s that curiosity that is going to light the flame

so to speak, [Uhm] that can bring you closer together. [Okay] So, it’s anything

you can tell him to do, and further it’s not anything you can tell yourself to do, but

rather with these exercises that I am trying to help you open up a space where you

can welcome. Where is the new, where is the creative? How is that going to come

in, and it usually comes in with your dreams, with your fantasies, [Uhm] with little

exercises like, would that be a nice thing for you to do by the way?

CL 118 Yes.

TH 119 Occasionally you notice . . .

CL 119 Sit there and think about that.

TH 120 Today your fists are tight, and maybe tomorrow they are not, but, you

know, allow that body language. In other words you are learning how to let your

body speak to you because you know the right hand doesn’t often know what the

left hand is doing and so on and so forth. So you are getting your deeper nature as

32

well as a deeper evolving spirit nature come to you. So you need an open garden

so to speak or create some new plants. [Mhm] Any of this new to you?

CL 120 It’s all new to me.

TH 121 Okay, very good. That’s what I hoped, to be able to bring something

really new. [Yeah] Your life frankly has gotten in a stale box so to speak. [Mhm]

But you are obviously a creative person. So now you’ve got to create, take the

time out, steal time so you can do this if you want to create within. Have you ever

kept a dream journal?

CL 121 Hmn.

TH 122 I would start doing that. And over, usually you don’t know what a dream

means, but next month you look back and you say oh, that’s what my dream

meant. And who knows, sometimes you might even see in the dream where your

soul is going or what you are struggling with. So it becomes like a little record,

and you don’t have to try to analyze it.

CL 122 Right.

TH 123 But over time it will be obvious.

CL 123 Yes.

TH 124 If you have to try to sit down and figure it out, you know, it’s just an

intellectual game. But, over time you notice a series of dreams they all have this

theme that becomes obvious to you. In other words, this is like a mathematics of

the fantasy of the inner mind. You really got a mathematical equation, you have to

33

write them out. So long as you don’t write them out, they can rattle around in your

head forever, and they never go to a conclusion. By writing this stuff out you are

going to get over this frustration. You feel the energy build up. That energy built

up is your health, it’s your creativity, but it doesn’t know where to go. We have to

create a field for it to go. Your dreams, fantasies, these private moments, times of

your life. So this is a secret place, and, you know, you don’t necessarily share this

with your husband, unless it’s appropriate, you know. So what else can I do for

you today?

CL 124 That gives me a lot to think about.

TH 125 Okay. See if I were continuing to see you, this is exactly where we would

set it. Okay between now and the next time I see you again let’s see what happens

with this. So you come in next time, and I see what you’ve done, and we talk

about it. [Mhm] So that gradually you become more and more of an expert in your

own mind body, how your own fantasy works, where your soul really is going.

You find yourself getting resistant even to your husband and your child as well as

yourself. [Mhm] So this is like a growth process just starting. Do you think you

will actually continue it, even though we are not going to meet again?

CL 125 Mhm, especially the dream journal.

TH 126 Yeah, and there’s a lot of books out there that are going to try to tell you

how to interpret them. Take it all with a grain of salt. You don’t have to work

hard. The meanings will come over time. So long as you are faithful in writing,

34

even during the daytime. If you have a fantasy that flips through your mind, write

it down. You don’t know what it means. It seems silly, but over time the text, just

like reading a mathematical equation written by Oiler years ago, the meaning will

come to you intuitively in a flash. And then you know it’s real stuff rather than just

artificial gobbledegook.

CL 126 Okay, that sounds interesting.

TH 127 Alright

Treatment Plan for Robin

In the next session with Robin, Rossi would ask if her efforts to explore her

dreams, fantasies or inner work had been satisfying. If not, he would recommend

that she participate in some group sessions of a very special sort. He believes that

Robin could progress much more rapidly in getting the idea of inner work in a

social learning setting. In these sessions, he would lead this group through a series

of processes such as those he presents in his book, The Symptom Path to

Enlightenment: The New Dynamics of Hypnotherapeutic Work (1996), and let

members of the group discuss their inner experiences. This would help Robin learn

how creative people function. Rossi believes that creative introspective self-

centered behavior has probably not ever been a part of Robin’s past experiences

and thus she needs to learn how creative people experience their inner world

before she can find the courage to do it for herself.

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To Learn More About Mind-Body Therapy

BOOKS

Lloyd, D. & Rossi, E. (1992). Ultradian Rhythms in Life Processes: An

Inquiry into Fundamental Principles of Chronobiology and Psychobiology. New

York: Springer-Verlag.

Rossi, E., & Cheek, D. (1988). Mind-Body Therapy: Ideodynamic Healing

in Hypnosis. New York: W. W. Norton.

Rossi, E., & Ryan, M. (Eds.) (1990). The Lectures, Seminars, and

Workshops of Milton H. Erickson. Vol. IV. Creative Choice in Hypnosis. New

York: Irvington.

Rossi, E. & Nimmons, D. (1991). The Twenty-Minute Break: The

Ultradian Healing Response. Los Angeles: Jeremy Tarcher.

Rossi, E. (1986, 1993 Second Edition). The Psychobiology of Mind-Body

Healing: New Concepts of Therapeutic Hypnosis. New York: W. W. Norton.

Rossi, E. (1996). The Symptom Path to Enlightenment: The New

Dynamics of Hypnotherapeutic Work. Pacific Palisades, CA: Palisades Gateway

Publishing.

VIDEOS

Check with The Milton H. Erickson Foundation, Inc., 3606 North 24th

Street, Phoenix, Arizona 85016, Voice: 602-956-6196 / Fax: 602-956-0519 for

36

information on video or audio tapes.

WEB SITES

http://home.earthlink.net/~rossi

http://www.erickson-foundation.org/index.htm#top