STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT AND PLANNING · 26 September 2016 Standing Committee on the...

26 September 2016 Standing Committee on the Environment and Planning 33

T R A N S C R I P T

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT AND PLANNING

Inquiry into fire season preparedness

Morwell — 26 September 2016

Members

Mr David Davis — Chair Ms Samantha Dunn

Ms Harriet Shing — Deputy Chair Mr Khalil Eideh

Ms Melina Bath Mr Cesar Melhem

Mr Richard Dalla-Riva Mr Daniel Young

Participating Members

Mr Greg Barber Mr James Purcell

Mr Jeff Bourman Mr Simon Ramsay

Ms Colleen Hartland

Staff

Secretary: Mr Michael Baker

Witnesses

Mr Robert Auchterlonie (affirmed),

Mr Walter Aich (affirmed), and

Mr Brian Brewer (affirmed), Country Fire Authority district 9 and South Gippsland group.


The CHAIR — I welcome three new witnesses: Walter Aich, Robert Auchterlonie and Brian Brewer. Evidence given here is protected by parliamentary privilege, but that is not necessarily the case if it is outside. I ask members of CFA district 9 and the South Gippsland group to begin evidence, and then we will ask some questions. Robert, are you leading off?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I will, yes. My name is Robert Auchterlonie, and I am a professionally trained unpaid volunteer at Dumbalk fire brigade, which is in south Gippsland, 20 kilometres east of Leongatha and in CFA district 9. I have been a volunteer for 38 years. Dumbalk is my third brigade, and I hold firefighting competencies up to strike team leader, including hazardous chemicals, plantation firefighting, breathing apparatus and structural firefighting. I am also the VFBV state councillor for that area — there are 43 brigades, 2000 members in it. I am also a critical incident support peer within the CFA and have been for 20 years. I am the coordinator of my district and have been that for six years.

The CFA CIS unit helps firefighters, unpaid and paid, to cope with stress and trauma which affect them as emergency responders. We also provide support to family members if required in a number of areas. We are part of a broad range of support available to all CFA members. I have actually got two submissions, so that bit about being a peer is probably quite relevant, particularly to the second submission.

The CHAIR — Do you want to make both of those available to us?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I have already given Michael copies. My submission to you is in relation to the enterprise bargaining agreement between the UFU and the CFA. Unfortunately many clauses will have negative effects on brigades around Victoria, which may have long-term effects on brigades’ abilities to recruit, train and retain members, and therefore affect their ability to assist DELWP and Parks Victoria in future firefighting operations. There are no paid firefighters in my district; it is only volunteers. We do have an operational staff that support us and provide us with our resources.

The CHAIR — They are support officers; is that correct?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — They are operational. Their responsibility is to support us and make sure we are well resourced and trained, but they are actually in charge of the area. They do not actually turn out to fight fires as such. We are well trained and equipped the same as our paid firefighter colleagues. We wear the same protective clothes and drive similar vehicles, although we do use a range of smaller vehicles which are more suited to bush firefighting and hilly terrain and hard-to-get-into areas. We actually find that those smaller vehicles are very popular in supporting DELWP and Parks Vic in their bush firefighting areas. We actually send strike teams of those vehicles away now quite regularly.

Of course the federal government is going to introduce a Fair Work amendment which will address a hole in the current legislation which allows the EBA to override the CFA act. If successful, this amendment should get us out of the cycle of every three years a new EBA surfaces, which brings changes which affect volunteers, but we cannot actually comment on or cannot influence how those things progress into the CFA.

I do understand the EBA is the paid staff’s mechanism for negotiating pay and conditions for the CFA. I have no interest in that. I respect paid staff; they play an important role in our organisation, and their pay and conditions should be excellent. But the EBA should not override the CFA act, which it seems to, and it should not be able to introduce operational procedure changes without the chief officer’s agreement or after consultation with volunteers.

This EBA affects volunteers in many ways. There are three areas that I would like to highlight that affect every brigade in Victoria. I will start with clause 148. I know you probably do not have the EBA in front of you, but that basically limits recruiting CFA training instructors to only paid staff, those that have done the recruit training course which is for paid firefighters. It came in in 2010 with the EBA that was signed in that year. That has meant that we have not been able to recruit volunteers into the paid role of CFA training instructor since 2010. Around the state we have got 15 or 16 CFA trainers who were recruited as volunteer firefighters from the volunteer ranks.

The CHAIR — That is before that time.


Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Before 2010. We have got a number in district 9, and they all do a good job. We have got a lot of CFA trainers that are from paid staff, and they do a good job too. We cannot really see a difference between the two. It is just a discriminatory practice, which in the CFA act is not allowed. You are not allowed to discriminate against volunteers under the CFA act. The CFA act actually says that volunteers should be encouraged and supported to get paid roles in the CFA. That is actually in the act.

The other problem we have with getting paid staff firefighters to take up instructor roles is that they are reluctant to leave a station. They are well paid to be firefighters, but they also join the CFA to be firefighters. They did not join the CFA to be paid instructors. It is hard to get them, and sometimes it is very slow to fill vacancies in the instructor ranks. The significant problem is that then we have trouble getting training for our brigades, because they do not have enough instructors. Because we have got a relatively small number of instructors for a very big area, that is quite significant. It causes a great deal of angst amongst our members when they cannot get training when and where they want it.

Basically it should be the best person for the job. Whether they are paid staff or volunteers, they should be able to compete for those jobs through the appropriate process the CFA has in place; but the best person should get the job, and it should not just be paid staff. If we could achieve that by not allowing that clause, that would be very helpful to us. Because it overrides the CFA act, then it is something hopefully that will be dealt with in what is happening at the moment.

Ms SHING — What do you mean by ‘what is happening at the moment’? Do you mean the federal Parliament amendment?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes, and we do not know what is going to come out of the Supreme Court actions at all. The next one I wanted to highlight was clause 16 in the EBA which is about the volunteer support officer roles. I did table a bit of paper up there, which is titled ‘Wellbeing education and training’. All that training is available to all our brigades. Mental health, resilience, strengthening team relationships, EO, that is the sort of thing that our volunteer support officers roll out to our brigades. The Brumby Labor government gave the CFA enough money to employ 64 of these people to support volunteers after the Black Saturday fires. The whole state suffered, but a lot of volunteer brigades were the first people in to find what was left of the people after the fires had gone through. So the Labor government wanted to help the volunteer brigades so it gave them those positions; and now the union, in clause 6, wants to renegotiate those roles.

The CHAIR — Clause 6 or 16?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Sixteen, sorry. I have broken my oath already!

Ms SHING — No, you corrected yourself; you are all right.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — The union wants to renegotiate those positions under clause 16 with the CFA but without any discussion with volunteers, because the EBA excludes volunteers from that discussion, yet that role of volunteer support officer does not work with paid staff; they only work with volunteers. So that is against the CFA act as well, because you cannot change anything that affects volunteers without discussing it with volunteers. That is clearly in the CFA act, and it is a clear clause that cannot be misread; it is very straightforward.

Clause 15 is to do with our brigade administrative support officers. These people support brigades all over the state and are very, very popular for accessing support resources, information, publicity material and where you go to when you have got a problem. I know it is probably difficult to realise this, but the CFA is actually quite a complex organisation and sometimes it is very difficult to find what you want. So these people are used over a wide range of issues. They are very, very popular. They are only available for volunteer brigades. Integrated stations do not use them because they have already got their own paid staff in there. So once again the union wants to change those roles.

Ms SHING — Can you just flesh out what you mean by ‘changing’? How does clause 15 in the proposed agreement differ from earlier provisions in the current agreement?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — It is very similar to the early provisions. It is that they need to renegotiate or review those positions over the next 12 months between them and the CFA.


Ms SHING — So there is no change though to what is in the current agreement to clause 15?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes. Clause 15 to the current 2010 EBA is that they wanted to replace — sorry, I do not know what 2010 actually says.

Ms SHING — So what are we currently at, because the proposed agreement has not come into operation.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Correct.

Ms SHING — It is at large.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes.

Ms SHING — Things may happen depending on what happens at a federal level, depending on what happens with the Supreme Court proceeding. What is the current arrangement as regulated by the substance of clause 15?

The CHAIR — The numbers may be different.


Mr AICH — My understanding at the moment is that VSOs and BASOs are covered under a PTA award.

The CHAIR — What is a PTA award?

Mr AICH — Sorry, I am not sure what it is.

The CHAIR — That is all right. You can tell us later.

Mr AICH — It is professional and something or other — I am not sure.

The CHAIR — Technicians or something.

Ms SHING — Professional and technical, yes.

Mr AICH — Yes. So they are covered under that award and so would not normally fall under the EBA for firefighters, as I understand it. I do not know what the current agreement says, but the new EBA points to VSOs and BASOs needing to be recruit trained, and if you are talking about volunteer support and brigade admin support, there is no need for these people to be recruit trained, because they are essentially a support for brigades and individuals.

The CHAIR — So what do you think the purpose of the clause is?

Mr BREWER — I had discussions with a member of the UFU with regard to the role of BASO. This is one of the positions, and the current EBA wants the position of BASO to be filled by a permanent firefighter.

Ms SHING — The current EBA?

Mr BREWER — Yes. This member of the UFU said it would be a terrific position for a firefighter who for some reason could not or was no longer fit to get on trucks or someone that was injured; and they would be great for doing training and those sorts of things. After I spoke to him, I went home and I thought about it. Because currently our BASOs are young people trying to get a foot in the door and work their way up in the CFA, as volunteers I do not think we need a paid firefighter who is in the twilight years of their career that just wants to drive a desk.

The CHAIR — A retirement home.

Mr BREWER — That is right. I think it turns the whole role around. We need someone that has not come out of paid staff. We need someone who understands volunteers. We need people who are computer savvy, who understand the organisation backwards, and who are prepared to work with volunteers. We do not need someone who, as I say, is just doing time.


The CHAIR — What would the UFU member do in that role?

Ms SHING — Well, not necessarily a UFU member. Do you mean the person who spoke to you about how it might work for somebody as opposed to being that person themselves?

Mr BREWER — That is exactly right.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — They have not told us. They do not say in the EBA what their thinking is. The only thing we have got as a guide is an earlier version of this current proposal, which said they wanted to replace them with paid firefighters and they wanted to change the roles and positions. That was an earlier version, and they have changed it now to just reviewing. I mean, sitting here I feel they want to replace them with paid firefighters — —

The CHAIR — Their intent is clear.

Mr BREWER — Yes.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — And to do that, change the role and position so that they can fit the job. It is like VSOs in an earlier version of this agreement or this proposed agreement: they wanted to replace VSOs with paid firefighters. They cannot do the VSO jobs because they are not qualified psychologists and counsellors. So they had it in their proposal to change the roles and the positions to whatever — and they do not outline what they wanted to do there — so that paid firefighters can do them.

We do not want to change that. No volunteers want to change it. They are happy with what they have got. That is really important. The possibility of them trying to change it without us being able to comment on that or even, if it goes to the Fair Work Commission, for us even to put a case to it is really, really unfair, very discriminatory, and clearly against the CFA act.

Ms SHING — How does that fit with clause 7 of the proposed agreement?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Clause 7 is a bit of fluff and feathers, because it is a general clause. It is not actually a clause. Clause 7 says that a specific clause adds clauses to a general clause. So the one that you are referring to, which is about 7 — —

Ms SHING — ‘Nothing in this agreement shall affect the work that is undertaken by volunteers’.

Mr BREWER — That is a proposed catch-all.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — That is a general clause. Any other clause in the EBA adds clauses to that, so it does not mean anything.

Ms SHING — Is read subject to that, is it not?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — No, because it is a general clause. I just assume that this is in all EBAs. I have never struck it before, being a dairy farmer.

Ms SHING — No, it was added after the Fair Work Commission process.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes, so it is just a fluff and feathers thing. It means nothing unfortunately.

Ms SHING — Is that based on your own understanding or is that from the VFBV?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I have had it explained to me.

Ms SHING — So from the VFBV.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes, through the VFBV.

Ms SHING — Okay. Thank you.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I have not spoken to any lawyers about that.


Ms SHING — No, that is all right.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Now I have just taken up almost 20 minutes —

Ms SHING — Keep going.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — and I am wondering if I can quickly discuss my other submission?

The CHAIR — Quickly.

Ms SHING — And bushfire preparedness as well if you want to get into the detail.

The CHAIR — This is part of it.

Ms BATH — I think this relates to bushfires.

Ms SHING — I am not saying that it does not, but that is the other part of the inquiry that we are looking at.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — The second is on peer support. I have given peer support at Wye River. I was there for about 10 days. I worked out at Birregurra for about five or six days. I was there specifically as a volunteer CFA to support paid staff out of DELWP and Parks Victoria and there were some MFB people and CFA paid staff.

Ms SHING — You mean during the fire?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — During the fire, yes. There were a few of us based there and I was working with them. The types of issues: obviously their crews were younger people, men and women — a lot of women. Of course there can be pressures there. There can be being scared on the fireground at the fires they attend, as they pulled people from out of their organisation to be firefighters at that time. So there is that level of unexpectedness — being in the bush and being involved in a fire. There can be relationship issues with DELWP and Parks Victoria have their processes for dealing with conflict, bullying and harassment issues. But sometimes people are not comfortable going through their organisation to report those things and to have CFA peers there, or any peers — they can come to us and have a quiet chat and then we can actually take that appropriately. It helps keep it quiet and more confidential. There are a range of things: going to hospitals if people get injured and explaining to them where they can get stuff and that sort of thing.

Moving on from that explanation of what peers do and the types of problems that you see, I have actually listed a few thoughts on how we can improve how we work having peers there at a base camp working with DELWP and Parks Victoria in the future. The reason they are using us is that their own peers are all used in operational roles, either in incident management or on the fireground. So I believe they should actually train peers and that is all they do; they are actually confined to that role so they cannot work to anything else. I would also suggest — —

The CHAIR — Just on that, is not one of the strengths of your role that you are actually a firefighter too? With the greatest respect to the very learned professional colleagues and so forth, is it not the strength of a peer-to-peer arrangement that you are an actual firefighter talking to a firefighter?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — That is perfectly correct. That is the case in the CFA, but when you are working outside of the CFA with DELWP firefighters you are not actually their peer because we are CFA firefighters. They are younger, they are paid, they have been to university usually and they have come in for a summer crew. Some permanents are older. So a different type of person does the two roles. Whilst I like to think that our peer scheme is better than their peer scheme —

Ms SHING — Healthy competition is not a bad thing.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I just believe they need to provide some of theirs and we should be working with them. We should have CFA peers and DELWP peers working together, and in that way we train each other. On CFA peers, we do not know their reporting processes within DELWP. They have got psychological support like we have, but we do not know what their processes are. We need training on that. So there are a number of recommendations there on them providing training to us to prepare us for the summer periods and to


prepare us for possible deployments into their base camps and with their crews. I have got that there. There is a lot of stuff in there for that. Are you happy if I just leave that with you like that?

Also, we have got a memorandum of understanding between the CFA and DELWP in mutual support arrangements in the psychological care area. That memorandum of understanding could possibly be expanded to cover this briefing of how they do their business so that we are better skilled when we go and help them. I am certainly not against going and helping them. I think that is great and it helps them a lot. It supplies them with capacity that they do not have, but we just need to be better prepared for it. I think I will let someone else talk now.

Ms SHING — Good. Thank you, Mr Auchterlonie. Mr Aich or Mr Brewer?

Mr AICH — Good afternoon, everyone. As I said earlier, my name is Walter Aich. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to talk to this committee. I have been a member of the Dumbalk fire brigade since 1998, so unlike these two guys I am a bit of a latecomer to the CFA. In that time my career as an unpaid firefighter has included, obviously, the training and meeting national competencies to become an active firefighter for both wildfire and what is called remote or isolated structural firefighting. I have also trained to take fireground leadership roles, which include currently endorsements for sector commander, and I am hoping during this current season to get the necessary experience to be endorsed as a divisional commander. Having said that, the hoping bit is sort of a bit conflicted because it means that there is obviously an incident running.

I also have held and hold leadership roles in the brigade, in the group. That includes my current role as group officer for the South Gippsland group. As well as a whole range of calls out in my local brigade, my service has included a number of campaigns, starting with Sydney, East Gippsland, the Great Dividing Range and Black Saturday, as well as the more recent Hazelwood, Hernes Oak and other campaigns.

In my roles as brigade captain, deputy group officer and group officer I do have some involvement in preparation for the coming summer season and the potential for needing to fight fires both locally and in the campaign mode. These preparations for me are essentially a grassroots thing, so I am not involved in any negotiations around interagency agreements and things like that, but I need to be aware of them, I need to know their contents and I need to be able to educate the people around me in those so that the members we work with understand what readiness means, what command and control means and what chief officer’s intent means around getting an emergency under control as quickly as possible. I need to make sure that we have the necessary skills maintenance so we can work safely in the environment. We know what the vehicles are that we use, we know what the tools are that we use and we know what the communications procedures are and we understand those. We know how command and control and transfer and control work, both up the scale as an incident might escalate and then back down the scale. Then we need to understand how incident control centres work and, very importantly in a group context, how local command facilities work.

Also, we need to make sure that the endorsed fireground leaders, as in strike team leaders and sector commanders, understand what the state and regional interagency agreements are and what the procedures are for activating the different components. So if a fireground leader decides that air support is needed, how do we get it? It is not just a matter of screaming over the radio, ‘Get me a helicopter’, and what the trigger points are for getting that.

As well as that, we work very hard at establishing personal contact with other agencies. For example, one of the things that we have been doing is we have been training at the local command facility that is in the Parks Victoria building at Foster so that we are getting those personal contacts as well as understanding how that facility works and so that we have more efficient communications and more efficient dispatch of requests.

As well as that, we are currently working in cooperation with DELWP staff, CFA vegetation management officers and local government personnel around vegetation management plans. In the spring in South Gippsland there is not a lot of opportunity for control burns, because it tends to go from too wet to too dry relatively quickly, or it has so in recent years, but in the autumn there is a larger window of opportunity, and we have cooperatively worked on a number of controlled burns. The one that comes to mind most immediately is part of the Baths Road Reserve at Mirboo North.

In the past few years we — i.e., firefighters from southern Gippsland — have made great contributions to deployments outside of our area. We have sent people to Western Australia, we have sent people to Tasmania,


and early last summer we sent people to Lancefield as well as to more local incidents like at Grantville, Devon North, Yannathan Road. So as to what will happen this summer, I am reasonably confident that we will put the necessary crews into the field, though I am finding as a group officer it is getting harder and harder to do that, and I believe that there are a number of limiting factors to that. Some of those limiting factors include that it is extremely tough in a business environment for small and medium-size enterprises. Rob has ready said that he is a small dairy farmer. It costs him and the rest of his family, who are all CFA members, hundreds of dollars to leave the farm, and that is obviously a big decision to make. Fortunately the Auchterlonies are great contributors and, as you heard from Rob, in terms of the peer support, there is every chance that that will continue.

Another thing that is a limiting factor is the availability of people during peak times. We are about to start phyto-harvesting. Last year we had the first fires in mid-October, so people were in the middle of phyto-harvesting. It is really important to be aware of that and to work around it.

As I stated in my introduction, I have achieved national competencies and have endorsement for strike team leader and sector commander and, as I said, anticipate that during this summer I will gain endorsement for divisional commander. In that respect I have a very personal concern because, if I am acting in one of those roles — i.e., sector commander or divisional commander — as an unpaid firefighter, there is every chance that I could be told by a paid firefighter that they are not going to take my instruction. And while it has not happened to me, it has happened to two of my colleagues, and the excuse given was ‘EBA’. I have read three versions of the EBA, including 17.6, and I do not read into that a clear instruction as to how chain of command should work on the fireground. That is of personal concern.

I also note that the acting chief officer, in one of the online Q and A sessions which they have run and which can be accessed online from the CFA, makes the comments that in trying to clarify this issue to a question, he will be seeking clarification from the UFU before making a decision. I have to say personally that really worries me, because chain of command to me is clearly a chief officer thing, not something that needs to come out of the EBA or needs to be confirmed with the union.

Ms SHING — Sorry, where was that citation from? You referred to the chief fire officer indicating he would need to — —

Mr AICH — Yes, the — —

The CHAIR — This was in a Q and A with the chief — —

Ms SHING — Sorry, Chair, I would just like to hear from Mr Aich.

Mr AICH — The acting CEO, together with the acting chief officer, have run two or three — —

Mr BREWER — Two.

Mr AICH — Two Q and A sessions, which are online, and in the first one of those, which I think was run in the middle of August, around 17 August or so — —

The CHAIR — Do you have a copy of those?

Mr AICH — No, I do not have a copy — —

The CHAIR — Can you obtain one?

Mr AICH — But it is accessible through the CFA website. I do not have a transcript, but I actually heard it again yesterday, and that was — —

The CHAIR — Where was that?

Mr AICH — Online.

Ms SHING — Where from?

The CHAIR — Where?


Mr AICH — I had to go into the CFA website as a member and then do a search for Q and A, and the options came up there and I went into the one.

Ms SHING — If you could provide that link?

The CHAIR — Those documents would be very helpful. We are not CFA members; we cannot access those.

Mr AICH — Okay. I can certainly try and find that link, yes. As I said, that does concern me because if I am in a situation — and fortunately I have never been in a really tough situation, but if I am in a tough situation — and somebody is questioning my ability to make decisions or to communicate with them, that is going to be a real issue.

The CHAIR — Essentially what you are saying is it would lead to unclear lines of authority —

Mr AICH — Exactly.

The CHAIR — in a fire.

Mr AICH — Yes.

The CHAIR — And that would cause confusion —

Mr AICH — Yes.

The CHAIR — and, potentially, risk not just to you but to the firefighters and community.

Mr AICH — Yes. I mean, I am not sure. I have actually been told an anecdote over the weekend, and the anecdote goes along the lines of a lieutenant from a volunteer brigade was incident controller, a crew from an integrated station, paid staff, turned up and they refused to take instruction from that incident controller unless each instruction was preceded by a directive from the rostered duty officer of that district to the paid staff.

Ms SHING — When was that?

Mr AICH — The anecdote said it happened within the last month.

Ms DUNN — Do you know what incident that was?

Mr AICH — No, I do not because the anecdote said that that might still be subject to disciplinary action or further investigation, but that is as much as that person was trying to tell me.

Ms SHING — And that is under the current enterprise agreement?

Mr AICH — That is under the current enterprise agreement.

The CHAIR — And that is in your region here, do you think?

Mr AICH — I think it was in another district. I got the sense that it was in another district. But having said that, I know that when the Hazelwood fire was here one of my colleagues turned up to be a sector commander — he has actually got a lot more fire line experience than me — and he was eventually sent home because a strike team of paid firefighters refused to take direction from him. And another colleague, who was the operations officer in the incident control centre at the mine, was told by paid firefighters they would not take his direction, and that was resolved by actually replacing that person.

Ms SHING — Under the current enterprise agreement?

Mr AICH — The current enterprise bargaining agreement was used as the excuse for that stance, and my understanding is that not a lot changes with the proposed one.

The CHAIR — Just so that I understand this, what is your understanding of the legal situation in such an occurrence where a CFA senior officer is incident controller, or the responsible officer, and a UFU group or a paid firefighter group failed to take instruction? What is the legal situation there? Do you have any — —


Mr AICH — I do not have any advice on that. I personally would hope that they would be subject to some sort of disciplinary action, because I think that it is really vital that if you have got an incident that needs to be managed, there is a clear chain of command. Having said that — —

The CHAIR — It was potentially disastrous.

Mr AICH — Yes.

Ms SHING — We will take that as your own personal view, Chair.

The CHAIR — Sorry, keep going.

Mr AICH — Okay. Further to that, I believe that this — what I said before about the chief officer’s response to the Q and A — is actually quite strong evidence that the proposed EBA impacts on the CFA and the chief officer’s ability to manage human and physical resources. It does this by imposing a consultation process that gives the UFU an effective veto power, because every time I read ‘consultation and agree’ I refer back to clause 21, and it basically says that if the UFU holds out, in the end nothing can happen. I am not sure how the final arbiter, as in Fair Work Commission, or Fair Work Australia, can make decisions around equipment, around uniforms, around safe fireground practices and things like that.

Ms SHING — Is there not a separate consultative process for volunteers in relation to uniforms? There is a consultation committee that occurs with the VFBV and volunteers and the CFA that the UFU is not part of.

Mr AICH — I am not aware of that, but even if that were the case, why should there be separate consultative processes around equipment and uniforms and those sorts of things for paid firefighters? We are all firefighters. We have all been trained to do what we do to national competencies so we act professionally when we are on the fireground, even though we are not getting paid. Surely the processes should involve mutual support rather than exclusive processes.

Ms SHING — Very welcome words there.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — The only thing is that the EBA, because it is federal legislation and because the CFA act has not been used, to make sure that the CFA act is not overridden, the process in the EBA of negotiating what they wear, it is stipulated quite clearly what they are to get — —

Ms SHING — Career firefighters?

The CHAIR — Paid firefighters.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Paid firefighters; that is correct. They want to have exclusivity or clearly distinguishable different turnout gear than volunteers. The interpretation from our point of view is that they want to have distinctively different gear. That means we would have to have different gear. They have already said they want to have different wildfire gear; that is in this current EBA. That is okay as long as, if they get something, it then cannot be had by volunteers.

The CHAIR — It cannot be forced upon volunteers; is that what you are saying?

Ms SHING — No.

The CHAIR — They are not allowed to have it.

Ms BATH — It cannot be replicated.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — It is possible if there is exclusivity — I am not getting that word right. If they are getting gear that only they can have, there may not be an alternative, so it may actually stop volunteers from getting certain — —

Ms DUNN — But some things you are accessing because it is already allocated for the paid — —


Ms SHING — Sorry, but not in terms of technology of fabrics or protection for uniforms. That is something that can be incorporated into uniforms, and indeed has been off the back of the Lewis report and inquiry into changes to volunteer uniforms that happened through the volunteer consultative process.

Mr BREWER — The Lewis report essentially ended up with two different sets of structural ensemble that members, whether they be paid or volunteer, could pick which one they wanted. That was because of a clause that in recent times Lewis himself actually said should not be in any further EBA, and that was the consult and agree clause, which is essentially the veto clause.

Ms SHING — But to go back to the construction of materials — and this is something particularly for people fighting wildfires and really high temperature fires — as I understand it, the construction and material used in uniforms is not at issue here. It may relate to livery, to colour, to shape — that sort of thing — but in terms of safety requirements, and this is something that I have understood uniformly from people talking about the way in which equipment and uniforms are distributed, that is not the key here. The key is distinguishing features so that at sight people look different.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — The other issue is the structural helmet. The current structural helmet across the CFA does not meet national standards.

Ms SHING — For volunteers, you mean?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — For anyone, so there needs to be a new structural helmet. The UFU have stated that they want the similar helmet to the MFB — that is in the EBA — but they want that only for themselves. That could be an issue as well, because if there is not something of a similar nature for volunteers, then you have got that issue that volunteers are being stopped.

Mr BREWER — The way I look at it, if I go into a house fire with a paid firefighter following us in, I would hope that all of my gear was equal in quality to their gear.

Ms SHING — Yes.

Ms DUNN — Absolutely.

Mr BREWER — Essentially, Ms Shing, if your house was on fire, I do not think you would care whether it was a permanent crew or a volunteer crew that attended as long as they were well trained and well equipped.

Ms SHING — I would want everyone to be fitted out properly with the relevant equipment and appliances. With a structural helmet, for example, you can have a structural helmet that is one colour and a structural helmet that is another colour, and they will both do the same job if the core materials are the same. Again, that is something that I am keen to flesh out here, because if what you are saying is that you are being denied access to the same materials and the same construction in safety equipment and uniforms, then that is a very significant position to be taking. Is that the position that you are taking?

Mr BREWER — To use a term our ex-CEO used to use extensively, we are one CFA. As opposed to the Metropolitan Fire Brigade, the CFA is an integrated organisation with volunteers and staff working side by side. We should all be the same. As one of my colleagues said, there should be no differentiation. If I am trained to the same qualification as a permanent firefighter, why differentiate?

Ms SHING — But that is a different question though around construction and materials. This is actually really, really important, because if you are saying that you are being denied access to a structural helmet in construction or materials that would present a comparative danger to you on the basis of what the UFU has argued for in the construction of its own proposed model that is based on the MFB model, then that is a really significant claim to be making.

Mr BREWER — The UFU claims it is for OHS reasons. If they have got significant OHS reasons to go one way, we are one CFA. We should all be going that one way.

Ms SHING — But what are they claiming is for OHS reasons? I do not understand. Maybe Walter can shed some light on this.


Mr AICH — In schedule 20 there is a clause there which says for OHS reasons there has to be a visual differentiation between paid and unpaid — —

Ms SHING — So we are talking visual only, because that is really key. I am struggling with this.

Mr AICH — There has to be a visual difference between paid and unpaid firefighters. The rest of that clause, to paraphrase, says something like: the CFA may choose to provide equipment of similar quality to its volunteer — —

Ms SHING — Volunteer base, which is where the consultative — —

The CHAIR — But there is a second wing to this conundrum, as I understand it — that is, that the UFU may have a tick off on what is used inside the CFA.

Ms SHING — For paid staff.

The CHAIR — No, it may be broader.

Ms SHING — That is where the volunteer consultative committee in though, on uniforms and appliances.

Mr AICH — As I understand it, the UFU claims the right to approve equipment and personal protective equipment and things like that before it is issued.

Ms SHING — To whom?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Anyone. It is a catch-all thing. Any gear, anything that is going to be used by the CFA has to be approved by the UFU.

Ms SHING — Under what, the enterprise agreement?


Ms SHING — But the EB only applies to employees, so how could it apply to everyone?

The CHAIR — It applies to the whole of the CFA, as I understand it.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — The wording is quite clear. It is everything, so a volunteer brigade may want a fire truck for use in hilly country that has tracks on it. That has to be approved by the UFU according to the EBA.

Ms SHING — Where does it say that? Again, the enterprise agreement is between the CFA as the employer and the UFU representing its members who are employees.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I understand that.

Ms SHING — I am really struggling to understand how that then has been extrapolated out to mean that the UFU gets to actually reach into — particularly when you have got consultation processes around uniforms for volunteers — —

The CHAIR — Like the tail wagging the dog.

Ms SHING — No, and particularly when there are established processes that clearly do not involve the UFU as far as uniforms and equipment for volunteers. Talk me through that, because I am keen to hear how it works.

Mr AICH — My reading of various clauses around equipment gives me the impression that the UFU has the opportunity to claim the right to approve any equipment that leaves the manufacturers, whether it be used exclusively for UFU members or in integrated stations used by both unpaid and paid firefighters or goes to volunteer brigades.

The CHAIR — Whether it is intended for volunteers but may be used in a fire situation by anyone?


Mr AICH — That is right. Those clauses include things like, I think, schedule 25, where it actually specifies the make of the cabin chassis as Scania cab chassis for a number of appliances. Personally I do not see the value in that. Any changes to that, if a better vehicle comes along, would have to be first approved by the UFU.

Ms SHING — Because we have had evidence that directly contradicts that to this inquiry, so this is where again it is important to flesh out what your understanding of all this is.

Mr AICH — Yes. But that equipment schedule very specifically lists Scania, and then if you look at torches, for example, if I remember correctly, the quote says, ‘Not yet agreed but has to be yellow and it has to be eventually agreed’. That is to paraphrase what it says on all those other bits.

The CHAIR — So let us be clear here, CFA management then cannot buy a particular torch unless it is ultimately agreed by the UFU, even though it may be being used by the organisation in a different capacity?

Mr AICH — That is my understanding, yes.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Like Walter, I have read all the EBAs they have sent to us, including the last one, and it is clearly in there. I am sorry I did not write the clauses down that it was in, but for the consultation process it clearly says that the union has to be consulted through the consultative committee that they want to set up between the CFA and that if there is no agreement, then it goes on to their process up to the Fair Work Commission.

Ms SHING — And you are saying that clause 7 does nothing?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — No, because it is a general clause. It is not 7, it is 7 point whatever, because that is a general clause.

Ms SHING — 7A, I believe it is.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — All the other things add to it, so it is not strong enough by itself to actually — —

Ms SHING — Who says that, apart from the VFBV of course? That is their position.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I have been advised through the VFBV, that is right.

Mr BREWER — I was just going to offer comment on the implication of specifying a make for a tanker, such as in the EBA where they specify Scania cab chassis. Currently the CFA will tender out, for example, to bring online 15 Hino heavy tankers or 15 Iveco pumpers, where they have deemed a cab chassis to be fit for purpose. By the union specifying a make that is top end, instead of getting 15 trucks the CFA may only get 10 trucks for the same dollar.

The CHAIR — So you think the cost will be increased by closing down a competitive process?

Mr BREWER — If we have still got the same bucket of money, we are not going to have the same amount of replacement trucks.

Ms SHING — What makes you think you have got the same bucket of money?

Mr BREWER — I would welcome more money.

Ms SHING — We are looking forward to giving you more money. That is half of the discussion.

Mr BREWER — But if it is the same bucket of money, there will be older trucks in some of the outlying brigades because obviously all the integrated stations and the busier stations, such as Warragul, my station, will have rather modern vehicles. But because we are not getting the flow through of new trucks because we are specifying a ridiculously high-end vehicle, a lot of older trucks will still be in service.

Ms SHING — Like Mallacoota’s grande dame, the oldest truck in the entire Victorian fleet.

Mr AICH — I do not know, the captain from Foster would probably claim — —


Ms SHING — No. I have talked with Foster about that competition.

The CHAIR — Is there any other general comment that you three wish to make?

Mr BREWER — I would just like to first of all offer a personal introduction to myself. I am actually from Baw Baw group, not South Gippsland group. I am an active professional firefighter at Warragul fire brigade. My wife is a brigade member and my daughter has just transferred from the juniors to become a senior firefighter. I come from a family with extensive CFA involvement over four generations. I personally have 35 years CFA involvement, a national medal — a national emergency services medal. I am an honorary life member of the Keysborough fire brigade, ex-captain of Keysborough brigade and have held numerous other roles. My father died with 55 years service and my grandfather actually donated the land for the Keysborough fire station. The current land value there would be probably $500 000.

I have been an active member of the CIS team for nearly 30 years, having completed certificate III and IV in community service work. I am qualified to hazmat level and also strike team leader. Just this year I have attended 115 call-outs, so that is this calendar year, and I respond with Warragul as well as Erica and Inverloch, where we also have property. Like Rob, I have had extensive involvement. Some of the fires I have been involved with go way back to Ash Wednesday; numerous campaign fires, including as strike team leader in New South Wales in the Sydney basin in 1996; obviously Black Saturday; and Hazelwood mine. I have attended everything from house fires to motor vehicle accidents, factory fires to bombs, chemical spills to plane crashes, so I have had a fair bit of involvement and thousands of incidents over 35 years in the CFA. I have got serious concerns with the current UFU EBA and its impact on bushfire preparedness now and into the future.

Ms SHING — Do you mean the current EBA or the proposed one?

The CHAIR — The one that has been endorsed by cabinet.

Mr BREWER — Yes, well, it is held up by federal — —

Ms SHING — Sorry, you are okay with the one that is operating now?

The CHAIR — No.

Mr BREWER — Well, the current one — what is it — 17 point — —

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — No, she is talking about 2010.

Ms SHING — No. I am saying we have one agreement that is the subject of the Supreme Court challenge; it is the subject of discussion at a commonwealth level.

The CHAIR — Endorsed by cabinet.

Mr BREWER — That one has been signed, but it is held up by federal — —

Ms SHING — No. What I am saying is we do not — —

Mr BREWER — Yes, that is the one I have got concerns with.

Ms SHING — So the proposed agreement, not the current agreement?

Mr BREWER — Yes.

Ms SHING — It is not operating.

The CHAIR — The endorsed agreement.

Ms SHING — We just need to be clear about that.

Mr BREWER — It is not operating, but it has been signed by the — —

Ms SHING — It has not been voted on. Let us just put it that way.


Mr BREWER — Yes. So I have got serious concerns with the UFU EBA and its impact on bushfire preparedness now and into the future. The EBA is clearly divisive, as the three of us here have discussed, and numerous clauses differentiate between career and volunteer firefighters and in some cases discriminate against volunteers. This has a serious negative impact on volunteers and, in particular, their morale. It has to be remembered that volunteers make up over 97 per cent of the state’s firefighters. The current widely acknowledged morale issue in the CFA at the moment is largely caused by the current EBA.

Ms SHING — The proposed EBA; we are talking about the proposed agreement.

Mr BREWER — Okay, yes.

Ms SHING — We just need to be clear about the terminology.

The CHAIR — The cabinet-endorsed agreement is the one you are referring to.

Mr BREWER — Yes.

Ms SHING — The one that has not been to a vote yet, let us just put it that way.

Mr BREWER — The EBA should be thrown out and a new one negotiated that has no impact on volunteers. The CFA is a volunteer-based, fully integrated emergency service and has been since its inception. Volunteers fight fires alongside their permanent firefighter colleagues. As I mentioned before, the ex-CFA CEO Lucinda Nolan’s quote, ‘We are one CFA’, should be remembered. All professional firefighters, whether they are paid or volunteer, are trained to national competencies. The best person for a job is the best person for the job. As Walter said, if a volunteer has the qualifications, he should run with it. It should not come down to pay. The only way that I believe morale can improve is if volunteers and staff are treated as one. We are one CFA.

Some 25 years ago I was a breathing apparatus instructor at the CFA-MFB training ground at Bangholme in the south-eastern suburbs. As an appropriately trained volunteer I was actually instructing CFA and MFB paid firefighters. Another role I had at the same time was as voting delegate at what was back then the region 9 regional planning committee for the Dandenong operations group, so I was the person voting on behalf of some of the busiest staffed stations in the state, including Dandenong, which is the busiest. Again, a volunteer and at the time, the right person for the job.

Another concern that I have is that there are serious implications in the EBA for the chief officer of the CFA and his ability to delegate his responsibility. This was acknowledged by the last chief officer, Joe Buffone, and all the deputy chief officers below him prior to his resignation. It was interesting to see some of the correspondence that came out from Joe, because it was countersigned by the DCOs below him so it was pretty unanimous — they were all concerned about the implications for the chain of command.

The CHAIR — Do you have copies of those?

Mr BREWER — Again now they are all on the CFA’s website. The previous Minister for Emergency Services, the previous CEO, Lucinda Nolan, the previous chief officer, Joe Buffone, and the previous CFA board all acknowledged that the EBA was totally unworkable. Replacing these people does not make the EBA any different. At the last meeting of the VFBV in district 9 the new government-appointed CEO, Frances Diver, and one of the current government-appointed board members, Gillian Sparkes, both acknowledged that there were problems with the current EBA and that it was not ideal.

The CHAIR — So where was that?

Mr BREWER — That was the last meeting of Volunteer Fire Brigades Victoria in district 9 held at Leongatha about — —

Ms SHING — On 1 September.

Mr BREWER — About a month ago.

The CHAIR — You can come back with the date.

Ms SHING — Sorry, it was reported at the start of September.


Mr BREWER — Yes. It was actually interesting, because everyone was asked, ‘Who’s got concerns about the current EBA?’, and everyone in the room put their hands up. There were about 70 people in the room. Frances and Gillian both put their hands up, so it was pretty unanimous.

Ms SHING — What did they say their concerns were?

Mr BREWER — There were all sorts of discussions. They said it was not ideal.

Ms SHING — No, but what did they say that their concerns were.

Mr AICH — They did not specifically. There were questions about potential discrimination by, for example, having different uniforms and turn-out gear and things like that. If I remember the conversation correctly, Ms Diver agreed that that was a potential but she made the statement that they were working with the chief officer to find ways around that so it was not as obvious. I think that was the gist of the conversation. I cannot remember the exact words.

Ms SHING — So it was not as obvious. That is a curious turn of phrase.

Mr AICH — So, for example, you could have similar coloured turn-out gear but have different helmet badges or something like that.

Ms SHING — So it was not as visually obvious to people, the discrepancy, but that firefighters would understand the difference.

Mr BREWER — But that is the current situation anyway.

Ms SHING — No, but what else did she say were areas of concern, or Ms Sparkes? You have indicated they had a number of concerns; you need to now express what they were.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — She actually said she had a number of concerns. To my recollection — —

The CHAIR — She did not elaborate.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — She did not — —

Ms SHING — So it was just a uniform discussion that she gave some clarity on then?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — She did not clarify it.

Mr BREWER — She also made a general-type remark that she hoped that she could implement the EBA and not affect volunteers, where someone replied, ‘Why scramble the egg and then try to unscramble it?’.

The CHAIR — And the response to that?

Ms SHING — Was that all part of the Craig Lapsley implementation process or was that — —

Mr BREWER — No. The two ladies left soon afterwards.

Ms BATH — Can I raise a point on that? I can come back to it, but it will get lost. I have also had discussions with a CFA member of district 9 who was at the meeting and who said that they ran out of time for questions. There were many questions to Ms Diver, and she said, ‘Please put them in a letter’, and send them off to her and she would respond to them. Then people did send a number of questions off and the response they were given back was that these were all operational matters and that she could not answer them. They needed to go to the chief officer, Mr Warrington. The comment I was told by one of the members of district 9 was that they were not all operational matters; they were in fact a mixture. I am wondering if you can respond to that.

Mr BREWER — I can ascertain that that is correct, because our vice-president, Janet Auchterlonie, who is Rob Auchterlonie’s wife, actually discussed it with the CEO, wrote down a heap of questions and emailed them to her. I got a copy of the email that came back. One of the questions was — —

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — What is your understanding of the professional firefighter?.


Mr BREWER — Of a professional firefighter; that was a pretty directed question, ‘What is your’, not, ‘What is the chief officer’s’, or, ‘What is Ms Diver’s — —

Ms BATH — Potentially I could google that to get the answer.

Ms SHING — So have you received a response from Mr Warrington as yet?

The CHAIR — From Ms Diver.

Ms SHING — No, Ms Diver has responded and indicated that she has referred the matters on.

Mr BREWER — No. I sent Frances an email and said that the questions were directed to her, could she please reply. That would have been three weeks ago, and I am still waiting.

The CHAIR — We would appreciate a copy of the questions and any responses that you have received.

Mr BREWER — Okay. Just to finish up, any clauses that differentiate or discriminate against volunteers must be removed. We are one CFA, a volunteer-based, fully integrated service. The only way to truly be prepared for the fire season is to be one force, not two. And just a little statement: if the EBA is implemented, for me personally I am just going to see how it all pans out and then I may just resign from the CFA, because I have got enough to occupy myself without getting entrenched in this sort of rubbish.

The CHAIR — Which brings me to my overarching question to the three of you. If the EBA is signed in its current form, or close to its current form, what will be the impact on firefighting capacity in Gippsland, because this is obviously the area that you know — and I am not necessarily expecting you to understand the details of elsewhere in the state, although, Mr Brewer, you obviously know the south-east of the city? What will be the impact?

Mr BREWER — Wearing a couple of different hats here, in district 9 we have tried to minimise damage. We do not want to lose any firefighters. This dispute is not over. We do not want anyone throwing in the towel at this stage. But wearing my hat as a CFA peer, I had a member — and at the time I had no idea who it was — who sent me a text message saying, ‘I have had a gutful of this. I am going to quit’. I thought, I will just keep him talking via text until I can work out who the hell it is, and then I will give him a ring. He is still with us, but there are some pretty significant people who are saying that they are thinking of throwing it in. I know at my brigade — —

The CHAIR — So what would be the impact of that on the community?

Mr BREWER — A significant loss of experience. I know in my brigade as well as me there is another senior member who has 45 years who is looking at options.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Also the removal of volunteer support, as I explained, in clauses 15 and 16, if that is what the UFU’s intentions with that were, based on reading the proposed EBA, and also if the training instructors are not allowed to be drawn out of the CFA volunteer ranks, then it will continue to create gaps in our trainer instructor — —

The CHAIR — So it will effectively weaken the — —

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes, it takes longer to fill those spots. So it means the districts will have a lack of capacity for training in the future.

Mr BREWER — And particularly for new members, for instance. It is important if you get an influx of members and interested people to get them trained up as quickly as you can.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I look at that as being an experiment the UFU got through in 2010. I believe it is an experiment that has not worked, that we need to go back to allowing the best person for the job. We will fill our vacancies faster. It will not create a breakdown in providing some training to our districts right around the state. It influences every district and every brigade. It needs to be fixed — that is clause 148. If this EBA goes through as it is and that problem continues, that will impact on training and the frustration that causes amongst our people is really significant.


Mr BREWER — It is immense.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Changing the support that has been happening with our volunteer support officers and our brigade administrative support officers — that sheet I gave you. It explains that they go in. The VSOs particularly are helping with the people issues within our brigades, creating capacity.

The CHAIR — The VSOs.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes, the VSOs; that is correct. So that is a really viable way of creating resilience and better performing brigades, making them more attractive for people to belong to, less conflict, less bullying, harassment. I know it is hard to believe, but in 60 000 you will get a little bit of that, and it happens. I know these — —

Ms SHING — Not just a little bit.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Well, yes, it varies, but most of the brigades are good, but you only need a little bit. The other thing, of course, is that the consultative clause — I think it is 20?

Mr AICH — Twenty-one.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Twenty-one, sorry. It requires disagreement between the UFU and the CFA to go to the Fair Work Commission, and then the Fair Work Commission makes a decision on this disagreement. Previously it has always been the chief officer who makes that decision. Now that is a significant one. The chief officer is — —

The CHAIR — It takes a lot of power from him.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — It does, but he is the expert. He is a fully qualified, paid firefighter usually — not always, but a fully qualified firefighter — with a lot of experience. He has been put there because of his knowledge and capacity to lead the CFA. His knowledge of the industry, the whole industry, is very, very high. That is why he is there. So he is the most qualified person to make decisions that govern the CFA, not the fair work commissioner.

The CHAIR — Can I just press a little bit further below the surface on this to understand what those impacts mean for the local communities in Gippsland?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes. If brigades are not working properly because they have had an interruption to their training, which can slow up recruits into the brigades and capacity within those brigades, and if the administrative support is not well done, they will provide less community training, because they cannot get the materials. They may not have class A foam, or B, on their trucks. Without VSOs the people are not getting as well trained for leadership and for managing people. Conflict resolution will be slower, so you get more brigades that are impacted by internal strife. These things break down brigades, and they make brigades less capable of doing the job.

The CHAIR — And the outcome of that?

Mr BREWER — As I said in my statement, morale is affected. Well, there is no winner in the community. In some small communities the CFA is it. You know, there is no pub, there is no hall, there might not even be a school. It is just a fire station in a district.

Ms BATH — And a hall.

Mr BREWER — And a hall, yes.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — It has implications on the brigade’s ability to service their communities with firefighting, and neighbouring communities and interstate, because we do all those things. We have to do everything we can to make sure our volunteer brigades are working well — they are working well together, they are well trained —

Mr BREWER — Well equipped.


Mr AUCHTERLONIE — they have got good support, and if you take away that ability to be well trained and to have good support, the brigades are not going to perform as well and it will threaten our communities and the work that they do.

The CHAIR — All right; thank you.

Mr AICH — Can I just throw in an example?

The CHAIR — You can, quickly.

Mr AICH — When CFA crews are involved in a campaign there are usually 12-hour shifts. If it is a 24-hour operation, there are 12-hour shifts, 7 to 7. Now that does not fit in with the paid firefighters’ shift arrangements. So rather than the chief officer being in a position to make a decision to be able to send paid firefighters to a campaign, they first need to get the UFU approval on deploying those with different shift arrangements. What often happens is the later part of the day is the most active firefight. I have gone on strike teams expecting to be relieved at about 7 o’clock, and we were right in the middle of a firefight and we were not relieved until 10 o’clock. So again, that arrangement would need to be somehow negotiated. I have also gone on what I call swing shifts, which are 12 midday to 12 midnight. Again, that is outside the EBA-listed shift arrangements and would have to have some sort of — —

The CHAIR — So the chief fire officer would have to negotiate that with the UFU —

Mr AICH — Yes.

The CHAIR — in the circumstances of any individual fire?

Mr AICH — That is my understanding, yes.

The CHAIR — What would happen if the UFU said, ‘No, we don’t want that’?

Mr AICH — Then the paid firefighters could not be sent to that firefight.

The CHAIR — Shocking!

Ms SHING — Okay, I might just pick up there, just to provide some clarity in relation to the ready, willing and able to work requirements of the proposed agreement. Are you aware of the pre-election promise to provide an extra 350 paid firefighters to the CFA?

Mr AICH — Yes.


Mr BREWER — Yes.

Ms SHING — And what we have heard in the course of this parliamentary inquiry is that these additional firefighters would be used in fact to relieve the shift and rostering arrangements that would otherwise potentially present challenges to the deployment of firefighters at any time of the day or night to respond to call-outs. What do you say to that in light of what you have just said?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I would put to you that the person who should be deciding this, under the CFA act, is the chief officer.

Ms SHING — But under the arrangements, as far as the additional firefighters are concerned, if there is a call-out required and there is a turnout required, it happens. There is no agreement required for that to occur, because the requirement is there under the contract of employment for those people to be discharged from those integrated stations to attend to a fire.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — But under the CFA act the chief officer has to make the decisions on how many firefighters he needs and where he puts them, and that discussion should be between the chief officer and the communities. The UFU is proposing to force the chief officer, through the EBA, to have those


350 firefighters — and I understand it was Labor Party policy to have those 350 people brought into the thing, but that is a decision between the CFA, the chief officer; it has got nothing to do with us.

Ms SHING — But you know they are only going to go to those integrated stations, don’t you?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — But it has got nothing to do with us where they go; it is between the chief officer and the — —

Ms SHING — Correct, but they are only going to go to those 34 — or 35, if we add the additional one — stations as far as the rollout is concerned.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — That does not make sense because those stations cannot handle all those people. There are 880 people in those; you have just put in 50 per cent more people and they cannot fit, so they cannot go in those integrated brigades.

Ms SHING — Just to allay any concerns you may have, they cannot go to anywhere other than integrated stations. What I want to also pick up on is the point that the federal employment and industrial relations minister, Michaelia Cash, has made on the record indicating that this agreement, this proposed agreement, will only affect people working at integrated stations. Do you disagree with the coalition federal minister for employment and industrial relations?

Mr BREWER — I have not heard those comments.

Ms SHING — It is available. That is an interview that she has given; she has expressed that position very, very clearly.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I am sorry, I have not heard them either. I cannot — —

Ms SHING — That is okay.

Mr AICH — I have not heard that, but I think in our evidence we have indicated that there are anticipated and potential knock-on effects to the way that unpaid firefighters do their job.

Ms SHING — You have also indicated in your evidence that what you would like to see is that any clauses that discriminate against volunteers must be removed, yes?

Mr BREWER — We are one CFA; we are not two CFAs.

Ms SHING — Please, just work with me here. That is what you have actually said.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — In the CFA act it is quite clear in regard to the volunteer charter that you cannot discriminate against CFA volunteers.

Ms SHING — All right. So how do we work that then? I am asking this very, very genuinely. How do you work that situation into reality when to pay somebody for doing a call-out is to discriminate against somebody who is not paid for being requested to attend a call-out?

Mr BREWER — But volunteers in Victoria have always said they do not want to be paid.

Ms SHING — No, that is not my question, though. My question is: is it not discrimination, based on what you would like to achieve — namely, to take out all discrimination from the enterprise agreement, whereby it treats volunteers differently — to be paying career firefighters for doing their jobs as compared with volunteer firefighters?

Mr BREWER — No, we work alongside career firefighters. We acknowledge that there is a need for career firefighters. We are one CFA. We are a volunteer-based, fully integrated emergency service, and that is the way it should happen.

Ms SHING — But I am struggling to understand how it is that you can say that on the one hand you are happy for employee firefighters to have — and I would like to quote one of you; I think it may have been you, Mr Auchterlonie — excellent terms and conditions.


Mr BREWER — They should be well paid and — —

Ms SHING — Okay. But in paying them, you are discriminating against volunteer firefighters.

Mr AICH — I am sorry. I actually see that as a bit of a distraction, because while the dictionary definition of ‘discrimination’ might agree that that is a form of discrimination, I do not think any unpaid firefighter would see that as a form of discrimination. It is the other bits of discrimination that separate paid and unpaid. We acknowledge that there is a need for paid firefighters in areas where the volunteer base is just not available and where the business of being a firefighter is just so intense that a volunteer brigade cannot do that.

Ms SHING — So where are volunteer brigades not available? Where are volunteer responses not available?

Mr AICH — Not available to the extent to meet the need. For example, a few years ago I happened to be in a conversation with the captain from Shelby, a fire brigade. At that time he was telling me that they did just over 300 calls a year and they trained twice a week and they sent letters to people who had not turned up for three weeks in a row. I am pretty sure Shelby is still a volunteer brigade. At the time that was the situation. That is an extraordinary commitment from people who are volunteers. If you step up a little bit further, you get to brigades where there might be 350 or 400 calls a year. When you get to that level, no amount of intent will allow a person who needs to be removed from their job, removed from their work, removed from their home to attend to that call will make that possible, so you need people whose job it is to do that.

Ms SHING — So how do we reconcile that then with the concerns that you have raised earlier in your evidence about the cost of leaving work to turn out for people who work for small to medium enterprises, for example, and the availability during peak working times such as harvesting. How do we deal with that around the issues of population growth, because the state’s population is exploding and the fire services review, the bushfires royal commission and a whole lot of other reports — —

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Under the CFA act — if we allow the CFA act to be the dominant thing and not the EBA — the chief officer will work out where brigades are just not turning out fast enough, and that happens. As you said, you cannot bring 100 000 people a year into the greater Melbourne metropolitan area and not expect a brigade — —

Ms SHING — No, absolutely.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Some brigades are asking for day shifts, day manning, so that they can actually increase their capacity during the hardest time to get people onto trucks, and we acknowledge that. The paid staff numbers have to grow and 40 per cent of those paid staff come out of the volunteer ranks. So it is an acknowledgement that we need to grow paid staff but we also need to have non-discriminatory employment practices in the CFA so that non-operational roles can go to volunteer people as well as to paid staff. They should be able to compete equally based on their skill level to get non-operational roles.

Ms SHING — Yes. So there are increases to the operations officer roles in the proposed enterprise agreement. It will nearly double, going up from 8 to 14. Is that the sort of situation that you are talking about in terms of additional staff to assist with operations work?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — No, I am not talking about that at all.

Ms SHING — Okay, because that is a benefit in relation to what you are talking about.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — That is the chief officer’s role again. Once again that is the EBA — —

The CHAIR — I think we are just about done.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — That is the EBA overriding the CFA act by telling the chief officer how many people he has in different ranks, and it should be the chief officer’s role under the CFA act and not under an EBA.

Mr BREWER — And that is probably a classic. If you look at some districts, like district 8, there might be a need for more in a senior role than that, and if you look at some of the quieter districts, up around the Mallee and those sorts of areas, it is probably overkill.


The CHAIR — We are just about done.

Ms SHING — Yes, I am just about done.

The CHAIR — That is good.

Ms SHING — You referred to a meeting that took place I think in Leongatha and that was reported in the South Gippsland Sentinel-Times, which quotes Andrew Ford of the VFBV as indicating:

The meeting strongly endorsed the actions of the VFBV, with both a motion of support and donations to the Valuing Volunteers Support Fund, which the association has set up to fund this and other actions.

Can you just confirm that at that meeting, which I think two of you, or three of you perhaps, have indicated that you were at, that donations were in fact made to the valuing volunteers fund, and where this money came from, whether any brigades donate money from their own fundraising or brigade trusts to this fund, whether you have been undertaking any fundraising for the valuing volunteers fund and whether you do that in uniform?

The CHAIR — It is doubtful that you would ever donate to the valuing volunteers fund.

Mr BREWER — I will put my hand up. I have been a volunteer for 35 years. I have put $200 towards it.

Ms SHING — And have you solicited donations as well?

Mr BREWER — I have not solicited donations, but I have been given — —

The CHAIR — You put your hand in your pocket.

Ms BATH — Your personal money.

Ms SHING — Personally.

Mr BREWER — I put my personal money, and I was also approached by two different members of the community around Warragul who each donated $1000 because they were — —

Ms SHING — Wow! To the VFBV fund?

Mr BREWER — Yes, because they were horrified at the way volunteers were being treated, and those people were associated with the CFA; they were no longer active.

Ms SHING — Was that in response to Andrew Ford’s call for donations?

Mr BREWER — No, not directly related. They were not at that Leongatha meeting.

Ms SHING — But it is the VFBV fund that was talked about at that meeting?

Mr BREWER — That is right.

The CHAIR — Have you donated, Ms Shing?

Ms SHING — I donate to the CFA absolutely all the time, and the SES and to volunteers.

The CHAIR — But to the volunteers fund?

Ms SHING — Just to get your evidence as well in relation to fundraising — —

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — To be clear, though, they are not using money that they take out of their subscriptions from brigades and they do not use any government money, which is — —

Ms SHING — Or they did not in your case. How do you know that it is not the case that they are not using money?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Well, they have assured us that that is the case, and they have been quite clear.


Mr BREWER — I work hard for my money, and I can donate it wherever I like.

Ms SHING — No, that is fine. I am asking about the meeting at which Andrew Ford indicated that donations were given to the valuing volunteers fund. I am asking where that money has actually gone, if any of you know.

Mr BREWER — Another member who I will not mention, he handed over $200.

Ms SHING — Do you know where it is going, though, this money?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — The volunteer support fund, which is being used to fund the Supreme Court action. Traditionally it is being used to fund — the VFBV runs a leadership course across the whole agency. It comes out of that one. So that money is being used for running that leadership course. They are using that fund to fund the Supreme Court action.

Ms SHING — The Supreme Court proceedings.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes, that is right, which was given to them a number of years ago by an organisation.

Ms SHING — But they were also fundraising on this night at the meeting in Leongatha?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes. There was a motion —

Mr BREWER — There was a motion moved.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — for the VFBV district 9 committee to give some money out of their funds.

Ms SHING — Do you know if any money was given out of that fund as a result of that motion?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — I would expect it has gone.

Ms SHING — Could you please provide on notice to the committee what was donated as a result of that motion?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Well, it was $500.

Ms SHING — That was given from the brigade; is that correct?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — No.

Mr BREWER — No.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — The VFBV district 9 — —

The CHAIR — From individuals.

Ms SHING — From individuals of district 9 to the VFBV?

Mr BREWER — No.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — No, the VFBV district 9 committee.

Mr BREWER — Which covers brigades from Longwarry to Erica and as far south as Inverloch — —

Ms SHING — Yes, that is what I am asking. District 9 brigade members — —

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — VFBV.

Mr BREWER — No, their overall association, which is Volunteer Fire Brigades Victoria district 9 council.

Ms SHING — I beg your pardon. Okay, they donated money to the valuing volunteers fund in the order of $500 as a consequence of that motion.


Mr BREWER — Yes, and there were at least two private donations of $200 each that went across the table — —

Ms SHING — On that night?

Mr BREWER — Absolutely.

Ms SHING — Okay. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Mr AICH — Can I add to that that Andrew Ford is also on record as saying that if brigades choose to donate to that particular fund, they should not use money that has come from the government or the community; they should use other moneys that have come either from individuals for that purpose or from brigade business enterprises, like fire equipment maintenance and things like that.

Ms SHING — Just Andrew Ford or the VFBV all up says that?

Mr AICH — I think Andrew speaks for the VFBV — —

Ms SHING — So he is the VFBV in that context?

Mr BREWER — He is the chief executive officer.

Ms SHING — Thank you, gentlemen.

Ms BATH — First of all, gentlemen, I want to thank you for your years of service and dedication. You are volunteers, and you have given up countless hours and years to provide us safety and security.

Ms SHING — As have your families.

Ms BATH — I am just shocked by the fact that you have had probably the last 5 to 10 minutes being grilled about your free donations to a VFBV fund that would support your cause that you feel very strongly about.

There are a couple of comments I will make, and really you have covered off on most things I was going to ask because you have been so very thorough. On clause 148, in relation to paid firefighters now taking over the role where volunteers once took on that role, the comments I have had from CFA members in district 9 is that they have concerns that most people, not dairy farmers, sometimes have a 9-to-5, weekday job and that CFA volunteers like to train on the weekends when they can squeeze some time out. The comment I have had is that many career firefighters will not want to work on weekends and therefore they say, ‘We will offer this delivery on a Wednesday, you know, but during some week time’. So I guess my point is, as well as that shift, it also may squeeze out the availability for CFA volunteers to access that training. Would you have a comment on that?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes, we are already seeing some training, and the current sector commander’s training is one where they are running it during the week. They are not actually running sector commander training on the weekend, and there is an awful lot of complaints from our members right across the state on that because it is just not possible for a lot of people to get to those higher level training courses and of course that weakens our capacity to provide people into those roles during fires.

Ms BATH — The other two comments relate to clause 15 and clause 16, and I have the proposed EBA that Mr Marshall provided to the committee; I have brought mine along. I guess the comment that you were making before, Robert, in relation to that was that the parties have agreed that the CFA will consult under clause 21 and reach agreement with the UFU. I guess — and you can give me feedback from this — this does not say ‘CFA-paid’ firefighters; it does not specify anything but CFA. So my question — and the same relates to clause 16 — is that we cannot differentiate at this point what that will be, so it could encapsulate paid and volunteers; am I reading that correctly?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Yes. Unfortunately the issue is that the UFU negotiates that with the CFA and so the CFA does not — —

You would like to think that they represent volunteers, but if the agreement is behind closed doors between those two, and the CFA may not necessarily discuss it with the volunteers, in which case the decision would be


made which may exclude volunteers altogether and the agreement could just encompass paid staff and exclude volunteers, as it is my interpretation of the EBA that they seem to be trying to increase the number of paid UFU members or paid staff into positions in the CFA and not open it to non-paid staff’s ability to take on those roles.

Mr AICH — For me the VSO and the BASO thing goes back to intent and the clause is relatively ambiguous; it talks about coming to an agreement with the UFU. Earlier versions of the proposed EBA quite clearly said that these people should be filled by roles that have completed the recruit firefighter course and are firefighters.

Ms BATH — Some ambiguity there. The last question in relation to uniform and differentiation of uniform is — it goes round in my head — why? Why is there need for this? Why does somebody have to wear a blue hat and somebody have to wear a yellow hat? Why?

Mr AICH — We are one CFA. If I am a paid fire fighter and I are qualified to some level and Walter is a volunteer and qualified to the same level, why, for OHS issues, differentiate it? It does not achieve anything.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — And from our point of view, there should be no differentiation. There is no logic about it.

The CHAIR — It is nasty, isn’t it?

Mr BREWER — We are one CFA.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — It is just creating discrimination by creating difference. Why create difference unless there is some idea to actually preferentially treat one differently from the other.

Mr BREWER — And I think that, as in my submission, the biggest threat with regard to preparedness is that Victoria is one of the two most fire prone areas on earth, along with Southern California. We are protected by a volunteer-based, fully integrated emergency service. We have got to look after the volunteers.

Ms SHING — It would be a shame if you stopped turning up then.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — On the basis that we need paid staff as well, and we need to grow our paid staff capacity as well.

Ms SHING — It is about the balance, isn’t it.

Ms DUNN — Thank you, gentlemen, for your very extensive presentation this afternoon. You have outlined a lot of concerns, a lot of turmoil, the impact on morale of volunteer firefighters, concerns around chain of command and the chief officer — a whole range of different areas of concern. The CFA plays an incredibly important role in fire preparedness, so my question is: given this turmoil, given the potential impacts on morale this fire season, is it your view that in this region fire preparedness is being done adequately and to a level that the community generally has come to expect in terms of what is the outlook for five preparedness activities in this area, given this scenario?

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Unfortunately we will not know the results of what has or has not been done until the fire season gets in, but it could be more the response and the support as the season gets going. If we struggle to get people onto strike teams it is going to affect the interagency supports that happen and that DELWP require and need so much to build their own capacity, because they basically are a small firefighting force and they need to have a lot of support from the CFA, and if the CFA’s ability to provide that support is damaged by what is happening, that is going to have a big impact on our capacity in the state to fight fires.

Ms DUNN — So it is a bit too early to call because the test will be the scale of incidents and I guess the impact on morale.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Unfortunately it is.

Mr BREWER — And also what happens with the changes federally to the legislation.

The CHAIR — I thank the three of you for your evidence.


Ms SHING — And your service.

The CHAIR — I was about to say that.

Ms SHING — We are unanimous.

The CHAIR — I know this has been longer than we had planned, but I think it was very valuable evidence. There will be some need to follow up, and the secretariat will follow up over the coming days, but can I also add to the comments made by others that your service over so many years, the three of you, is something the community greatly respects and I for one would not want to see that diminished in any way. Thank you.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — Thank you very much for that, but can I just encourage you all to buy a lot more dairy products?

Ms SHING — Yes, hear, hear! I absolutely endorse your comments, Mr Auchterlonie.

Mr AUCHTERLONIE — As a Murray Goulburn cooperative supplier, this is one of the few times in my career I actually belong to two of the biggest volunteer organisations.

The CHAIR — Thank you, and I thank Hansard in particular, our DELWP representative and the local government minister’s office and the other representatives here. Thank you.

Committee adjourned.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT AND PLANNING · 26 September 2016 Standing Committee on the...

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