SE'lATE DEBATES AprillJ, 1931

thoc G.:ant.w.. I &;ttbu f.rcm the mmd~r's 'lalcmc•t t~t the ckJqatron 1oin1 to Wulti"'too i:s ~rplyatteh1ucal one. Wdl lhorre be an opportlutity for tbt".m to meet on 1~i1 matter •ith the lt~tc.tdtfd members of Con&n=~l? W11 hall• had so•ne­.w«ell.t In de~ling wilh the State Dc~nmcnt tnd techmcnl people.. bul not so much succe.~s with the nw:mbcn ol Coopes5 W/10. I red, fHC> the: prime ta rQe:t. Could the •u inl~t~r aay whct!Kr l1c th.inb l hal is going to ht1Jli'C11?

HUo1~. Rll}l1Wl114 J . Pmau/1 ( INIIdi'r til Cl1t Gt~~t-nl;,t'fet): 1-lonounable umators, I can lilY thut 001111~1 h.l\'il bet.n made at the politkal lcYd as well. However, the q"lle~don •·ill be Ubll u IM)tiCt. a.nd it may be po51fble to bnltJ. • lr'M)fe detailed 11iMnry to the dlambcl-. Bued 011 the rn.formattOil•ht<:h bu llca mdc '''a.ilable lO Me. I thW: Canaclia,. an (cd optimas• he aboutlM outCOnll! ot lheie ulls.

Tl:lE PUBLIC StRVICE

Oofll'l.OYMENT OF THE; OlSdLF.P AN I) Ttlli UA h OICAPP'IiiO

Hnon. Rofkort Muir: Honourable M:l\ltof1.. may I il...O: the Leader of tbe GO\-ernmem if he has any rctpooK to the question' I p011ed regarding the dl!uibled nnd the apparent difference ()( opinion bc:cwe:e:.n the tlonuu~Wc Jcf&l'l•.l;aoques Bl iii.J und l ite Honourable Uo,d Axworthy'l

llilil. lbyn1o011d .1. l 0t r"ult (Le.der or r•e Conrllllltnt): Ho"""uable lltn8tors, tholt matc:rial hu noc )'Cl bocn rc:ct:l~'t'd. We arc aw•ili.ftl its arriYSI -.·itb keen anticipation. ., ....

SH•t01r Mwir: Tbe OODoarabk tmtkm.ln athd me .r I VI!OIIJd prvride •o .-jtll tbt Worettioa u to ..te-a t&i$ ,.... Mppc:llkd lO a.aw bun !lOUd in the t'&'COrCb. AI tM bn.rtft& of lhc Comm.iuec 011 the: Oisabkd aad tlrle HudQ"'"'- ltekl on WcdMIIday. A,Ptil I. 1981. dtt witnoetJ wu tlte Hono•r~bk Jnn·J.aeqvcs Blab.. .-bo .szid, as repoort<d u P'IC 1'7.1 of tk procecd•n1• or tbe committee:

HoweYcr. I will not be able to mott your recommends• ck>n ti\11111\IJ)f)licrs' :.ffi rmath·e.ucc~n JI'Oi'll tnt be •ubjcct to contractmd undertakina•· 1 miJhl point out ttmt o~o~t Ct~nad inni7.ation ptogranl, to whkh I refert'od pi'C'viously, while auooe~rul, is nOt ac-hleYM throoah oontr :u.:tual ulldertekinp, but through pc:nua.-ion Hnd cfYe:.<:tlve co•n· •nunication in tbe marketplace.

Sr••tor l''err•~l: I tllanlt the honouraWe ~n1101 for hU htiJ!Iul inrorm~tion. HO'IIn:¥c:r, I am hopeM th.lt • ~

001npktc t hllemcnt caD be btoaght 10 the chl•bc:r a.plai11ina, .... offlcb.l P'»ftao...

TKE CONSTTfl.TfiO.N ,\lOTION f'Oit Alii AO()afSS TO HEit \fAJf.~TY ntl. QUEL"f­

M01'10N IN AMt.NDMEI\1--PROCEOOftti litESI'fCTI"''<I DfBATE

i'! l)ll, Jac-k AuJdn: Honourabk &enaton, I tt.ooJid Uke to uddr'OiiJ :a Qloli:lltiotl Ul the fho;puty Leader of I he Gorcmment. ~Id he tell u1 what tbe order of 1hc dt:t!!u~ ""Ill be. with rc.peot to t he Comtitution and. particulurly, 11 whillt time

""•'olol lh• .. ~.l

~u win be btou&ht bc(orc U.C ebmbet. ud •hat till'ftt •ill be pcr.,.iucd ror 4cbal.c oo tiKh amcr.imtllts? I am pttie:ularly 111totrctttd in hcarin& the. oppo$ition memben arJue tbc PQfilion ot tbclt p~u1y ~ the .wspemive YetO and how that woukl wotk In thi t clulmbcr.

Nc.~n . Murtial A~llnt In the committee you 'fOtcd agnin.-t the supremacy of Ood. Do )'{)!• Nmoember that? I wns there.

IICI• . Ro)'()e fri th (l)tputy JA.,u of tbt: G~H·ern .. r-~tl ): Ho1101.1r01ble 1e:n•tor._ in llllll.,.~r to the question uke:d by StiUtot Austin ((iCIIIdin.a. nut. the Co~itution re:ldutiOJI., the order c( the Senate .,. htdl hoftOUrable senators will find 01'1

Jllte I 132 of tbe AIIIUif#-1 (}j tlte Pro«'t'.4i~rgs 6/ tM S,-lftJ, for Wcdndd:ty, April 15, 1911 oont.elnpUt.cs that we wdlew moa of oer t1me t• a!\mlooe •114 ID ~ to disaaJ that rC$011•00.. h il u!ldtn1ood I CNIJ bt corteettd if I am wronrtkll no lilloftourabk teMtor IICICd:$ to rec~ lu ... ttd b)' tk f~ct that 1~ a-.-.dmmu t!IWI.t ·~ bdorc tltc otltct ~ to.:boic:ally are not yet bcrorc Id. 1,. ot.Mr words. uy ho..our· able S<tlttltor who 'AIAhCI to 'peal on tbe: amcr.dmenl3 tlut arc bcine dc:b.'ltetl in the otbtr pl.ace lhoold feel free to do $0.. So .. 't\' ~an use up our tllne m._,re ur le~ in anticipo.tioo or tbC'Iflc ite:nu.. be~u~c. we know Umtec.~ordine to our ordc:r we will be: mo'l'ins $111),uanti1111y tii(IM tUfliltwimeniS. In (a\!1, eee:on:lin& to o•u order"''<: will ffiO\'C: u;pct/y the lmutndnw:tlt tJaat is aocept· e:d by the other plrtco-

Hoe. Ja('lllloU Offtn (l.c"•dcr f1llilt Opposition): No, DO I t!!Utl:: the Oep11ty Lelder of llx O~memtnl is lt)'ifl& 10 susses• iOrntlhlfll that be rully does 1101 rneaJI. fie d.id not .say IUI ~ wed_ 1nd l hope he •ill rteract it immedi.llldy.

SN:I1or Frhk Tllc orckr PfV"''do-SH:IICir flr-: No. - Loot., •hat }Oil said Wt w-«L l.ct

llliiOtatSK

Seutor Frit•: I am ftOt tcdlllJ eo aralle anythmg. I Am aim ply tryina to p3in1 out '*hat tbc nloOC-ioo says. J do not want to :ugue anythina. P.roJ.tPph 4 1ay11:

·lltc Order t O ICJUilliC the doebntc 011 the mu in motion sball be eallocl ul 10.00 11.1t1. oo Ftiday. April '24, 1931 and. notwhblilfmtllna 1ny other motion in amcndntent thcrcu'l, t he te;~der t)r the GO\·e:rnment in the Sc:nute s.hnll forthwitb be &iven t~ n001 to move any amCJidmctlla to the uid Addrea• adopcod try the IIOU$e or Commons on Thu.rsd11.y, Aprllll. J981, J111t5U.Iilll to diC Spce:i:ll Order adopttd by that IIOUJO-

'T"bt is :all I ocarn to MY I( I aMt .,_..dam& difrueat from tlll.t. then I did accane~lld to do 10

Seutor F1Ju: I thtak )IOU .ta.d tiaa.l I would Uvc to !hOW:

curtly tbt ume.

SeldtQf" frlch: No, ~ Let U3 b.: very clc:~.r about that. The Leadc:r olthe Oppo~hlon 11 not bound in a.ny WilY tn move any amendment; no. noc ut 111. I tllt:allt thal the Leader ot the Gova:m11lC111 would-

Se••ator Fl)'tm: Th<ln I wlthtfnrw.

April 21. 1981 Si;NATE DEBATES 2325

Jl c11t. Raymood J , J)cftlltlfl (Lruder ()[ the GOYftllm~of) :

W~ were $peaking for <lur$clv~ . YOQ may ehoo;e t<t dlfrtr from your leader.

SeiUitor F1)'nll: I stand oorrected once more. SC'11•tor Frhll: In ter.nt of M~ndi11g anr«tcd, as between

)'l)u and nlc. I would !lily it is two to one in your fav<~ur-at t his point any"'·Ay.

Selllll()(- Flynn.: l 11.m 001 sure about that.

Settator Frith.: Jn any ~went, honourabk ~tn:uo.rs, that i5 whut the order provides. The rel~·:mc-e of ll-at is t hat no honourable scn:~ tor, in spc;~king today on the Cons.titut i011 tc»ahulon. needs to feel limited by the reSlOJutiOn in i t$ form bcfQre 1», and be or ~be ~bould fa:l fmc to $peak about the amending package :u it ha$ been tablod in the other boule..

'rhe next step will be oU 10 o'doel: tomorrow morning whet), pursu.anl to paragrapJ• 4, t he l.ead<:r of the Govern~nt will be giv-en t he opporumity lo move tbe amcndn)Cntt adopted in t.he Otlwlr place; foJ!O'Wing which t he l e;!dcr or the Opposition will be gi\•t.n tbt· opportunity to pro~c. any amendment he ••isbes. r then expect that the Le.1det ol the Oovcrnmc:nt n.n.c.l the l.e.'lder or tbe Opposition will be t he t'int to sped : •o tbc-ir proposed amend~nenu. Semator Yutyk.'s amendment will still teehnicli!Jy be before U$ at that poim. • CU:U)

We u'ill. th~eforo, spend the time betwetn 10 " ·'" · i111d ! 2 noo:~n t~morrow d isc:u.ssiog those tut'lendenent$, but, apin, we ean d i$CU$S tbem ar.so. to tJ1~ extent that • ·c fcnow alxun them. toda.y.

If I m:'ly UIJ:e the opportunity to:1 &a)' wi~St I tJ1ink will be h;~ppening toda)' and tomorrow, it ill th:et i ( Senator Smith ts ready with hit report , tben berore "''e get to tl~ tcoolution <)n

the Constit1.1tion we V.'iJI bear his teport :111d dc:.1l wilh thi rd rc:adins or the post otnce bilL When we h;we disposed of tlt3l. there is a bill, Bill C·.SO. that Senator Buck..-'())d will be sponsoring, ;end he is ready to J'lf'OOCed with it. but SeJl<llor f'lyon a nd I luwe ngrecd th.at we w;1n1 to give tbc maximum time to the Co11.1titutlon. $0 I hav-e ptoposc.d that that .u:tnd on tbe order pur er, and 'A'e will conti11ue to stand it nnd DQt deal with it ill all, OO)C$$ 'o'C Ita~ tJ1e time.. ff WC do hat'e tbe time, "''<:will ghoc it !ltrond rt:~~ding. Th~n we. will pr«:ecd to the Cotlstltution ~~Jut ion, dealing

with it in the manner we h:·evc. ju~t di$CU!SS<:d. I will be yieldiog to Senator l ang, :~nd when he ba.s spoken we " 'ill proce~d and prob:!lbly uk :Ill of the time available to u~ to di$eQs,s t he Co11~tituUon . Only whe-t~ we h.1Yc nm out, $0 to speak, will we deal with Gther bul1illeJ8, l 'hat is bow 1 6CC the prooecdin£,<~ for the rttt of U,)(I<IY and IOm<M'ro'A·. If thCI'\' i.s ~me!hing I bal•e AO'l m.1dc clear. r wilt bG gl:3d t~ try tO de> w.

J.fl)(l. J tu·P3ul Deithatdct.: Honour.1bJe senatoFS, my q uestion bas to do with the VQie on tbc. amendments tom<trrow. CouiCI y<lu tell U$ <:le.u ly bow you intend to proceed'? Will tJeae be a $pcx:ifi-c vote for each ~pccilic l\mcndmem. « one vote for .s~·tr3 l amendment$? lt i~ not ~-cry clear in thi:s order ol the bou~i: .

Se~~:ator t 'rilh: T he wording of tbc. otder is meant to estab­lish only wnnibu.s ;em(;J'Id ments in the same fonn-

St•u. tor Fl)'ftll: Nd. No!

~~~fl»" f rith: Th:u i$, there. arc onJy th ree amendments that 11.re before us for v·oting. lite"' will be- the <>mn ibU$ amendmem of the govtumw:nt, the omnibus amendme:nt o f the oppo$ition-S~nator fly11n: No! N<>!

Se .. a«or Oc$e;h:delets: The Depuly leader will realize. tl!f!ll , thnt if I am a.g:a inst one a mcndmcnl. and in fnvour of .111~ther amc.ndment. 11.nd if the t'A'U arc. put tt~gcther, 1 will have to vote against. 'l'hi$ is the position I will be. in,

Senator f'rltlt: That is my undtruanding of tl-.c ordct that was ag.r\'Od to In the other ph&ce. t hc$an'tt as bcte. ~•r.ator Flyfl~ : I di~llgrcc wtir<:ly with the position taken by

the IXpu~y leader of the GO\-ernment. I s uspected tb:u he •'Qldd try to pull tbat. I shoukfnO( say 11ta1. l thought he was pr<:parin.g the ground for what he i ~ $l•y:ing now, j ust a few nt<lmenll:l :ego.

There i$ noth ing in this onler lh:u "''OUld pcnnit tbe majori­ty ber~ to impose- on u5 tbe ne'"~ity to \'Ote an omnibus amendmwt. There i ~ no1hing of that kind here. In tl~ hou.se. .111 ritbt, btU that ill their problem. h is nl)t our pn)Ncm, and the :uncndnt-erttll havt-to be '1\'Jttd the W<~.}' the)· are prC$entcd, and if thq $re presented .separatcly,tJtey are going to be \'otcd !i<:paiateJy. 11 )'00 arc uying to hl'lpt:$e d (l$ure on IJS in th i$ way. )'Oll had bettc-t thinl ag:dn.

SeAator f'rhh: Pcrbap!l we art !;~illS to <:nd up with a two·two ~core, bcc:iu$c I nm not attempting to ••pull" IU'Iy· thing, or to ha\'C anything happen except what is in t.he wder, The order providC$ that 110 amendment$ or sub·amcndments may be pr.:.p0$cd to the $ttid motion exocpt those moved by tJ•e LeAder or the Govc:rnmcnt and the Leader of dt.e Opp<~ition in the Senate 011 Frid'lly. April 24, aJ pr~idcd herein. The. Uader of tbe Oovcrnmcllt CM move t he adoption of amend menu 11lrcudy t~eclopted in the othei place, We. ba\'C· ahx~dy 00\-trcd tbat.

--1'10 Amendments may be mO\•ed to such amendments.., l.wt t he Lcadc:r of tbe Opposition may. immediately after the .saHf motion of the Leader ()!' the Oovcmmenl, move any amc:ndmcmt IQ tile uid motion f« an AddJcss; and both the ameDdments of the l eader or the OoV\'lmmc.nl and the Amcmdnlenl of tht l,.cader Q( the Opposition may be. deb-ated at the snme tini-C but without fuJtJ1<:r amendment.

ParagNiph 5 sa)'S: Rw:ry question n~ary to di$pose of any a mcnd me11 tS

roovcxl by the Leader or 1he Gcwern.•l'lent o r by the l.cader or tbe Opposition in tlle Senate ur 1he molioo in amend­ment by the Uonl)uneble Senator Yuzyk, if it is s till bcrore the Senate.. sbt~ll be put, in t hat m dcr, no latu than 12.00 1mn oo J~day, April 24, 1981.

am ocrtilinly not SIIB&C:>ting that "''e propose an amend· menl and tbat oo other amendment i:J :~.v:allab!e; but lbc

Se,.. ATE DEBATES AprillJ. 1911

amendmdlt that is proposed by tlte Lad« eltht Oppc.itiorl. a«""rdin:a to panyaph 4, 1 tale it. 11eod Ml ~an Oflllnibu:s amendment. 11 k neverthelm one amendment Ofll)'. • (HJOI

St"IIIOt nynn: Th~ deputy luder ~-a C(IIWCJiient memWy. When w~ di.scuued this motion, I mentioned tl'ull tl1e~ wu ocrtulnly nn error made by usinc the •111$ulrn In tbut pilnt· aruph wl1\'ln, in the: foUQWi n& paruyuph, th\'1 plural ~Ao'ai 1ded. I mauloncd that, aDd tbcre wu no c:orrcceion made by either t.hc deputy lesder or the Le:tdtr of tbe Govctttmoc:nt. Tbc:re wu n~r tn undcntandi;~g; there ..,.;u never • dl.eua:io" to tM dfcct tbl,t we would have ollly one quut.on un all the amend· mc:ftU lltl t •e • ist..:d to ~. I W'ill u " my <kpn y ktdct to ••PP"" .. , .aatcman tNt, ic ctw d~ "'"* had, t.hc:tiL'" 'III'U ~teW:r uy fjucstioa lhat we wwJd be k,.itcd eo c:.c wuc oo all tht alhttld~Mats that •'e ~ .. JW'OPI)IIIIt.

$HI111., f ri1!11: Tllete. if de~r!y a mtMndcrt:t.ancli'l& Stall or flyaa: ~ i$ more lll&n a mi•uncktundinc. S.n11t0t 17rith: N'o.. tbcrc I.S not an)1hina more th11n a

milundcratandin.g.. There is a misundcl'ltandlns 111c intention wu ea nu1kc thlll order rcJetnblc a~~; cloaely n1 po.uible the order in the ochcr phu:e.

S"nalilf 1•1ynn: Th:ll is $1()nw:thm.& ct_,c, Sct~;thlf' J''rilh: In my opinlQn, OIIC or 111" l&mhl tfll y key

ckmcnu or the: onkr in tlle Olher place wu tbe omni"'-'s amendment ptovii.ioft.. lt ...-:u deatl) my under~tu~lrtg-

Sfaator ftyn: No! Stutor Frhlilc Oroll"t say nolO whit my•lllknt•ndina wu. Stucer Fl.)-..: I ay110. Sttlator Prick The bonourabk Ladcr of tile OppoQt.ion ft

lcllifl$ "~ t~o u to •kat my Ulldtt'itl.ndut.& wu Ld me say ..-hat my undel"$tanduta w;t.s; we •Jrudy know what l'n•Y·

Sc••tor l<lrn.rc I dla.IJe.,gc your 1inoerhy SctUIIOr l"t!ruult: Liiiten Jlnd grow in wl~dotn . Selllfl)r frilll: I am $1()1rry 1hat the l.e:ula or,, •• OJ~Ositloo

c:hullenacll my tinc;eril)'. Wbethc.r it is clullh:naell ex 110C, here it ill. lt 'if>'fl~ clearly my und~ntand.inc-nnd. I thought, every· one'• undertttllwfin.&- that w~: .... c:rc aucmpdt~& to nuke tl\ill order resemble at <:lo$c:ly at ~siblc- the order In t be Qlher ptlce. 11 ..as my u.ndctsta~tdiflg. &eOOndly. that 1. very imp«· IUI Pltl-l.tl abiolllkly Yit;al put, 1• tn)' opituO.....-ol tbt Ofder '" the odw:r place ...._. tk con«pt o( omn1bu atMnd· mcftU lftlck b)- tbc ~t. the Of!PC*hon and t he New Ottnocratk Pstty. la tll't'f opia.a.. thal h • ky M; u'itd 1bt 'li"'f'4 ""atnendmcat.'"

&a1110or Hp~~~: No.

St•at;J<f" J."ritil: I rcpc;et., rn •ny opnlon that w•s why we.u~ the .-ord ·•amendmct~ c ... and it wu l'CfY dc:finice tha1 •'C W<:re OI>CrAtlna whh a vie•· to kcepin,t u di.Midy Ill I)OK•ib.le to the order in chc other plaoc.

/SC'11•1or I"C'nlnlh: Ht11r, h\".ar. ~*,....,. ,

Scwtor t:"rith: T'h.at " •ky, •'hen I ~~ IIIOlice el tbe motiofl. I Mid that ·~ •c.rco try•rta to keep il as clo5~e to tbe ronu of tbe onkr 10 the ochct place •• possible.

My undt:r,..andln.& ol daute 4- 1 suppose we will hll\'e to luw~ a rulm,s on il 11nd I 111n lOrry •bout the-•ulsun<knltand· int-~ ... wr tlJ •m: Surty! Spill\'! rn.e! Se~t.afilr .Frith: There 18 "o doubc 11tl,t w~ do •wt have the

ability to rt•avc !Ill )' n.cwc tluln ooc amendment; the 9P1J011ttk:K1 h:as the ri&]ll to move one 11mcndmc.nt: and cbe: amcndmc11111 tbal arc voted on, accordlna to clause 5, arc the ~mmcnt'• ;amcodmcnt. tbc op,_.uoa's amcndmtat ud Sella tor Yu:q .. ·a amctldOICIDI.

HH. 0.11 RoWia (Dt,.ty LH4tr .t lk o,o.Mt"""): Hon­OIIF*bk SCNtan.. I •• NI certai• tbt I eu shed 1.00 much liVn Oft this 0011volur.od anrd arJ,NWe nu;c~. but 11 .s pttf-=-1) dca, lhat the p~.net~l aM the opJ'l(Kitiotl $!ar1 rrom d .• rru. en1 point5 qf v~e• ltt the whole dnoclopmea1 of tlJjs proceduraJ tesolf.ltioo thlll WC hiYC before UJ,

As the Deputy l.eflder of the Gcwernruent hu qui\c corroct• ly stated, it'"' hi t OOjcct AIIAIOn! 10 iteure a ttSlOI'-t~ ftwn tills cbamber which •·u Identical in nil rc.spcds h> "''1:\;,t hil!d bt'Cn aa_rttd tO al lltCI f)rOCcdure 10 be (olfowcd in the Ollltt chamber. HQ'!\'i:Vc.r, I think tt it equally cortec• to say tbnl it was the ciC*r objective; or the Leader of the Opl)(lelhioll to do no '"eh thJna. Tbe quciii\ICI wai how rar wooJd we m tbc opposition be: able to ao eo meet an <>bjectivt with •bleb we dld liOt :lgltt. btu wfllch •e •·e~ willil'll to d isc:u.ta.. becaliSC • • W2.nUd to <01ne to tile- l.trpt (X*ibk DCUI1re of •arccmc•• • to t.oo- - s~Kwtd proceed wtt• tha ou.ner bu<c.

Pctha,. it • 110( IPIIf'OIW'IIe (ot me oo dftll too miiC• on wlta~ ....u .a.ld 11ft OI,N' pnnte ~ ilut if I c:&JI by i•fetU~CC dea.l wt tb the potl110ft taken by the depw.1y kackt. kt me say tbal muy o( IJI on thit. Jide of t he houK obJI:('ltd,asa runcbmcntll .natter or principle, to the fact that the &Q'renl• rnent wa• intistina th" only the Lcsader of the Opposition (:1111 move amoeOOmenll on thlt •ide of the c:bnmbcr. Muny •11C•n· bel"$ q( tho CllltCUJ 10 w11ich I belong wish lO produce unlc.nd• menta of tbcir <.1""'" I do noc kn()w whether all of tbe indcpc.nd· ent•ncmbers of 11~ c1'1111nbc:r n1i,.t.1 aive. up thdr right to n1ovc ~mc:odmcnts, b.lt it 1et1ned to Ill to be t fundamental abrop· tion or the riallu ot • mc.mbc:.r of thii body to ptohibit bim or Iter (to«l llb.Wlncamendn~nll.

.SO.. H••· Sta11on: Hear, bcJr. StMtw R.~h.: IIU¥11 to ad1m1 1Mt trre ClOfloOedcd tlaal poeal,

I Uw to .clmil tMt rt wu out ;114J;maK tN.t, i" \'1C'W tl the time- dcmal 1Ut .., lrwotwd beK aid tbe qtee-=atJ IUt bd beca lhldc cbtwltuc. - Uloa.ld c:o..c:cdc t.Ut poull. 'Therefore:. •c I~MJ~oe4 • t.!tp ltt tbc dim::tioo of I be £0"'CruKnt by a,gnx•~ to 1.hc pr01l<OIIIthll61'11)' the lcadc:l$ (lOO Id produce amendment~. even thOu.Jb we recc:i~ ~ry nro•tg aDd Yip· om pi"(((CSIII frool lllembefll of our Clnl~o.t u to I he proprtet)' Q( cntcnng intO IIUCh 1111 fljl.rtC:n1C:II1. f-lo .... -~·C(, for better (lr ror wor.se, we d id IIJI.fC'CI and we •re pr.qnrtd to Sl!lltd by th:1l :tg,!CC./111!".[11. We lOO~ dtll ! lt f) to mc:el lbc view of t ltc govun•

I

Aprii 2J, 1981 SBNATE DEBATES 2321

m~t tlul •c ah.Quld do here c:.uctly what was dor.;c io the Olhct dtambor

The $CCCNIICI pn:II)C*llt.holt -u •• to m wu tbt ..,.. 0111 ~ side wo.ld ORiy produce .u alllc:IICI~LC•·hat was prochlccd .u ame:.dmuu by 0\lr oountcrpariJ In the Progrc:63i"YC: Co~~~tt"'*' ti\"e P01r1y oppoi;ition in the: Jlotae of Conlmons. h _..unid 'o us that the llmtre.'$i'"e CoM«'Itti ... c enucus in thi, IIWto •·u to plodue~ throu,J.h the mouth o( iu le.tdct, the rciOiudoos aDd amcodmc:nu-:tnd noth1n1 but the rC'30iutio~t ud ~m.c~· met~u-introdl&«d by tkc oppo~itioe i• 111c otlter houx. To t!ut ._toOk ottpliola. lt wu out "KW du.t DO Mbt 111 IIDJ\f n:spcds .-e •ill be prod..d"' molu:t.._ w'bidl are .lmiJn to those in the other pboe. but we ill DO vray wiSh 10 be t=o.nd

We 1.'0wkl IM)4 con«de the co~athutioMI proptic:ty ol•arce· ing thal U'le oppo.,ilion i:n thi• bou~e should be bQ11nd 10 do prtclstly wh"t was done by the opopo..itioo in th.e otbu house. becau3C 11 wat noc our ~iew that tucti a ptOCCM ...,..., in (OArormit)' w11a oer undcr.J~.ndillt oJ the rolt ol t1le S.Ntc or, iadetd. ol uy tNcpcockrlt democ,.tir: body. u we arc to f<ll'ld of tdhq peoflk we are.

We saW to the gqyunmc::nt, "You ean dG •'hat you lit~" We could~. (rom a proccduraiJIOint ofview.their ptoblcm if they d id not pt"oduoo am~nd•11enb c:o.n&i~tent with tiW>te In the ocher eh.ambc:t. We bad no diffic:uhy 'f'itb that. However, h did not seem 10 \Ill that we $hould be bound in the $amc ~o<~ay bcre, nor .-u it c¥cr qrecd by rt'lt-llncl h wu oertaialy DOl IJ«ed by my IQdct. as JOlt N'O'C ll«rd I'DOSI ~tJCaU)' (1"0111 bitll~t 11'1 raol•tiom 0..1 "'0 prodiXII!: tbouW be: dealt Wllh as • bi.J;l:ct ease. I think t-t iJ a tatb« approprutc exprc:35ion eo u.e 111 tbi3 5IIIJC in our procttdinsa. bcc.uK • OOskct cue jg ccnainly whal thil C(u~tilutiorull debote has b~..·'<»mc at the present ti.me. At no time did •-e aare-e 10 c/1at propos.icion. 1t mtly h;ave bcc:n wun'ltd tb:u wt :.gtccd to it o~~ly. thlf a.uum,ptiom • v II'Qdc,. becausc th.o Ekpet)' leadn of tk ~CI'llmtal 11 a mu of prol:lil)' u4 be wouJd IIOt blft a.a.id lht that 1II'U .,.. '*- if .. did .. ~ bclic:"e tt, I &hoc him r.n fa1tb aad C«!d.lt u1 that rc~r«t I a~pt h1$ .. .,.,.IK'C •·ithoot any doubt, but J ha1'C to .ay that it is not my \'lew or the m11Uer.

Tbc point lt underlined boco~ I aald to my lemler , hnYing re.:~d ()ft.t thl• ~utioo. that tho word ··amend"'tCIU" ltl peF!lil'llPb 4 b 1n tM: .anaub-r and it OUJIU to be: ''* tbs ptvrd, if •1 •.ck,..;and:tq of the proccdiirt ons CIOrf'CCt Acc:onlinc· ~. tk Leackt of lk Oppa.At.on lftltde tM p:dl-ud )"'Ojj an fiod it at Pile 2307 oltbc Scnlt~ Hamltrd of Apnl U-4hat tbe wotd "an"nd ment'' 3houkl bo ht the pf11-rzl w •• 10 avoid any po.tllibllhy of doubt Or tiHI J(l~ or debate • ·c llfC luwin& here. No objection -A·t~s tllkcn 11) tbiH. No one said to 1111, "'r'hat ii oot risht You hll'~ iOl the wrooa end or the 3tidt "As far as I cuu.ld •cc. that wu aooeptcd by thofe 011 tDc otbc:r .dde or &be bolue u betA, • CCII'rcd, •«~~nt.e a.d accq!Ub,. natc­racflt of tk pa.it I!Oit.

You ea• lm1.&i.ne. t~. my lftt«ot. ,r nothilll c.be. wha~ I read the 1/om.a,d of that d11y in ••hicb that oorroctioo had ooc been lnadc. &tld tn which the woro 11111 exists in the! tln,y.ll lar (l)nn ~thcr lhlul in the plural rorm. lt $terns to me that it

woo.ld be quhc wron.g for llS to a.Jfee that we h.ad aiven ilny utldtttakl"&thon cbc ba.1l« app.-01e:a to atnc:lldmcciU •ouJd be llppn:lll'f'aiC

I ba''C to ay that, apart rrom any proccdaraJ matter, I have tbc s-tr<MIJC~t ob)OCtion io prinaple to d~ling w1tb a mend· ment3 to th(l Constitut.iotl in thl~ way. Hooonro~blo tcnauws on the oll>er ttdc of the dmrnbcr m11y •·ant to deal whit a mbccll:tncou.s &rollp of amCJ~dmcntll •hich ~ve no rclacioo to one 11nother, Jocica.!ly ot ~~~~te~ady. except that they arc patt ola very kl'lathy c:omtttu.tiOIYJ raotulioc. but bow <NI earth eaa IOCinbc:n cl lkis houc u.pa.s aa opi••? We ltec -. (~ ...

Jr. fat cx1rnple, thi$ Jmc.:k!lje oontains amendmeniJ dealing with the powen1 or t.he Senate, rlthta of w011'1~t1, tiWI umcndin.g formula and 1111 tbcse vartoos INIHCI'lf which boYi: no logi~l. inui-.k conn-ection OM '!With the ochct, t.ow ill tM M. me. or toodMM can pcoplc.lo@icall) 1nd i.e t:ooc! comc::.ct~CC ,...,ad up uc1 ~e ,a or ao. 11 is .at a q•esdon ol &i"tJa a bdl aecatld readift& -.hell one If COIIfrootcd wnh the dileii!DI of deodin& •·~"tether tbcn are more pluliCi or minllltS. and Wttiftlllccotd· ingl)'. We 11rc dealing w1th the ConlldU,ltion or the country tlnd 'llith mOAt funda mental princlplw If we are bein.IJ ll•kcd to ton.-,.KJu molutions on r~o~ndam<lniBI principJu that tu, .,.c no relationlh p OfiC' • -ilh t.lte o.htt, all toactbu, b•ucr-mu.acu ln a l:loslc:L. I beliocvc. rt dc~q;~tu frOJa tbc. probity ollhc people w-ho $it liiCK I, Cot oae., wouN aot be prepared to~~ Atdl . ...,....

I fuJJy aarce •·ith t!K PQI'ItiOn ta.ken by the Lc1der <~f t he Oppo.s..itlon, that ~~•c are una••re af any ll ltdt:l'li'Uuwtlna that th" 3ide of the house was obllacd 10 11ubmit ~0h1tions In a baskel and .,.ote an them hQI~»o-lxltu.t We ta.ke tbc ... kw t hat it i3 " mauer or cood judamcnc. con1mo~t s:ensc and ptudcnc:c. in disc•-.int the: affairs tJl tbc: OCMifltry, ud i11 duhna wit• tk wick Jro'IP ol ddplnttc ruum w1llda oae ClO e-1~ -.ill be m()oi.'Cd from this side ol the IIOI.Iw., tllat •"t s.houllct be abk: eo tcsa in thit chamber. sepa.rate:ly and qne at 11 tnnc, tbe:se rnauen or JN'inc1ple ltll they nre dh;eus:sc:d. I bc:lieYC that to do anythini else makes a joke of the entire pt'oootdhtSI.

Sw;~~t(lt f,c:rr1111Jr: Honourabk ieRBtot!. ooe t~d,a.ht have hoped: thlllt chc Deputy Ladcr or the Oppaution wouW ba¥e .s-poken i.ll thete lCnU or O.ltqe aad COIICern to tlk own <ea•cut.. 10 tk leader of U pen) or to this ct.ambc:r ~I wcc:b qo. da.}'l ·~or eYCII hail,. •to- Senator R~in thoold be telnil!dcd or.c:e again of the untqtlC sit~»;Hon we ha.,.e l1ae. Tltis tii'IUIIIIII I tltlullti<ln l11u bocn 11dnlittc:d b)' all t i\C 1\ll t.ot~al p:1rtie3 nnd t heir leaders.

~f11lllllf •1yn11: No. s~utot P«n•lt: The R~t Honou.rabh! tM Pnmc M utb·

tu. tile R.Pt llonou.n.bk tM Ladet or the (,)pp:tliuo• and tht J..n6« ol tile """ l.)cmocndc: Pany have qt'CCid that m view ol thi• unique &:itu.ation. i• \'tew of lhe fact ttlat an)' addrCM 10 WttiitminstCJ ft0111 tb~ f\em1tc •nd tht'- I IOUIOC of Conunon• tllllil &0 ((H'ward Ill klentklll rorm, bc:Qu~e h Mlll$1 be a joint nddresa. and in view or the many d:t.)'$ :utd ""«ks of

2328 SENATE DE8ATI3S Aprill3, 198 1

debate :md di5Cussion rq:ardina tbe c;;omdtutional proposals. togethcr witll a decision to ltesr f(()tl'l the Suprctne-Court of Canada bcf<IC'e any flnlrl l-qte_ 11 l.lni<rue format wu wvrflntcd in order to expedite lite passage of dtis measure:: through Parliament. More spccificaiJy, it wall 3treecl that th e nme;nd· m~nu passed by ParHameni sbollld be made known to the Supreme Co~om by April 24. h was agrood that tbe Supreme Court mUS-t know tile ideas of P:uilarnent before it ~rendeB its judgn.cnt.

Hooour1.ble Sc:.nator Frith spoke very eloquently on this point se~ral days 3&'Q y,•ben he reported upon the hbtoric :&rt'ement :1chievod by (he J>()litical panjes and the leadel'$ of the parti«. This is oot a matter ol a wilful Prim~ Miaistcr or tlle gov«nment unllatc~lly imposing a prqt;Cdure upon lxlch hO~»C$ of the Pu.rl iament of Canada. We have an agreeme-nt made by the Lead« of the. Liber!ll Party, tlle Lt3der of the Cooiervatiw P:srty a nd the Lcud er of the New i)(:mocr-~tie P•rty on bchu.tf of both elt.ambel'$ of Parliament. We have been informed of that-

SellltOr All!ldi": No. impos.1ible.

~m1tor Ptnault: - through rop«Sct~tati\'CS of all the pat· ties in t~ od1~r pl:aet:. Yet todl1y we h:rve • situ;rtion wberc the lt::lderihiJ> of the: official opposition in tbe Senate is tclling us that t hjs agreement is oolllra.ry to all ptincipl.es of d.emocr11cy, wltere the oppcM~ition leadeB fdgn outrage nnd condemn n proeedur3l ~grcemwt which their Q'Wn national party leac.tcr bas affirmed ~suitable. and to which evcty Progr«~sive Con~ sctv3ti \'C member or ParliAment in the other plnec h41ll asreed. Hae- Is a p:'lrty whid the otbcr day elllerc::d into a solemn agi'QCment that l"""O hoots lll'l30id be se• ~side to djspcm of the various amcndmet~ts in grOtrped fOrm :1nd now ditim$ thlll tl1e enlire p~ure i.s wrone and undeowe.rati<; ond tbat it tram· pies on the rigbu of Parliament. Where were- tltcse s.peecbes a fev.· days ago-

Sen;ator l~lyaa: T h-e)' •re tb«e in Ha!U(Ird. if )'OU 'olt.'()U)d just read them.

&.crator Ptmndt: - when ..,.~ had our di$eut>Sjoon on tbe res.ofulion'? Tbc.re i:s an elem«<t­

Se•ator Fl)'nn: I said t lt:~tlast week.

StlllltCK J)emurll: -of abs1.1rdity here.

Struhrr Flynn: Only in what you say.

Sen:ator J)ernt11ll: The opposjtion h.u inili<Hed a spurious d eb.ue. A few days ago. tbe go\'ctnrocnt in this plaoc stated that it would not "-'ish to resttict the tig.Jrt of the ocrtclal oppoUtioo to move it~ p.1ck~ge Qf amendmcn t11. \\' e ilg.reed thatlbe p.1ck.'lge need not to be the same ss the package in the other c.bamber.

Se.utor Robfia: Bravo: soil dodn't need to be lheJtl!.nte.

Settator Ptrr~ult: The Lca<kr ol tbe ~itioo knows tbnt. We did not agree to s:orne proc:edure, which would tr:rmP'e-On lilt r ightt of the oppos.ition in tbi.s hoose. We did not say that the opposition here must march in lock step with the l'iews of t.he Progressive Consen•.11 tive member.! in the other .C::htunbt:r. ~~m.,lll

B·ut .,.,'C d id agree tbat, in vie•• of the time av~ilabie to \IS and in order to m~l:e CC4't:tin that the&e matters ""'ere gi ~'Cf'l fair a.mfiderution. amendment! propo~~ed bot.lr by the go'I'Crnmcnt side and the oppo~ition side would be gro1.1ped totethcr in ord er that tbey may be debated and in order to make known the mind of P:rrli~ment. T hde-3te. the-f3CU.

Setl3tor Fl)•rut: Come to tbe point and tt)' to be ob jeetive and practical.

StnJtor Pernuk I WM party to the negotioHio~. and the l~der of the OppOJition is aware of tbat fact.

Senator Fl)'•u•~ You are aware or what I told you in your ()fitt:e.

Se•Helor l'euuult: Not <lnCe d ie! the booourablc- senator ever eApres~ tbi.s view durill.i ~ny of the nes-oti.;ttjons. W e t;r.lked in terms ot art.endnlcntJ.-

SeMtor Flyao: Never.

Stllator Ptrnult: -«nd in terms of tbe ornnibU$ package pr,lduecd by tJ;e g~~rcunent.

Scautl)r Flr•ur: No, I never said t.hat. I challenge you. I ~Y you are lyins-

Staut.,- Perraalt: l·lonQurablc- s.en0110r, y()u dlsgt:lee the ruks of Parliament by popping up like a ja~~in·tbe·bo.x .

Sertat.w flrrur: I do not care: I should not have to listen to YOI.Ir A)'ing tbill.g$ which Ut: lies.

Suator Pemuh: ptcase. mnintain your calm . Let us h~o;,: li()me order.

T•e Hoo. the Spea.ller: Order. please.

Hoo . . o\llb-ter Crotan: His H ooour is on his fcc:t. Sit down.

St11ator P<rntult: There is no d i.$order c>n thi$ $ide.

T l;e Hoa. tbe Speaker: Honoumble .senators. I suggest that we e.1lm down and d iscuss tltl$ very importarn point in a n orderly fashion.

HOil. G. I. StJtitlt: Honourable SICQIItots, f havc-

Scaator Perrsuh: U(lnl)umblo llen:lloril, f h:1d tJ1e Ooor. I$ tbe booourablesenator raising a point of order?

Seauh>r St~riUc \Vhal are you ~ylng here? I did 1101 get up to .speak to )'OU·

The Ho• . U•~ Sp~aktr: l.s the boDOUrable senator ris.ing an a poinl of order'!

Sertator Smith: I rose be>ciiiiSe I thought the hon()IJrable scoator was fini:shcd.

T lte llc.rrr. tile Speaker: I( the hooour:~bJe senator it n()t rising on a poiot of order. then tbe Hono1.1rabk l.eudtr of the Oovemmetlt ~hOuld be al.lowcd to continue.

Sw111tc.rr Smith: l wu.nt to muke it very detrr th:ll r tbought tbat the hooourable senatoc bad finished. otherwi$e I wouJd not have tlsctl.

Serr~tfor Pemroull: I took my plao: bec:.<lnlle His HOflonr I he Speaker ••as on his foet . If the honourable $enator btu 11. point or .:>rder, I would be. pl~$td to sit down.

Aprill), 1981 SENATE DEBATES ,, St•tor S•hk I am J'IIOC ast U., you to •it dowo 1 thoqll

t!Nit )'OV were fin_iabtd.

Scnacer Crotart: Or t.hat it was lime tbtlle w:u OntShcd.

St•11ur Pcrn uJt Honourable $enutort, In my view, tbe ncsodotlons with the o£Titi.al opposition In thl t plact~ have. PfOCCCdt.."<< with uncommonly good zrae., 1'here tmvc been nol)e of tho diAgcccmcnts ruch tu h-11~ ernc:r1od th~ ancr· noon, to the aurpr:IS:t or all or u.s on thia aklo. Wo tuc proi)08in&. In .,Jew o( th.o fact that tbcie omtubUJ pack~t.ja mut~t be prodiXlcd 11 10 o'clock tomorrow mornina, .nd tbc voctc mu.u be 11 I~ o·cloct. that the nut c:ff.ci<c:nt way or bandlina lhe .ll'lllltf lt to have the i.mc:od:mcnts ~ped 11 ha• been done iA the otltc:r piKe.

S.....t., Rru: No.

~~..- P«nldt: You may dilqrte •ilh )"'iJU ,.tty's ptll~y. but dtac- is ttiU llri:5 t«<fd ••le• ...., IC'-h:tcftd bJ tile ladcr of ~~ ~Utional patty.

StiUttl"" ftplnc No.

Stnlllor l)t:rrault: Out i.n c.hjs place the oppo.~Jtklfl i• pying that .1uc:h • proposal ill ulldcm()Cratlc:, and th111 h ttnmpfes on poople'a rifhts. The Jl&itic.>n 1.ake11 by the L~dcr or th~ Oppc~~itlon hctc l1 cf.eurfy i:nojical and ludloroul

& 1t.IICH' Flynn: Whul 'joke, coming from )'OU.

Sf'tlaiOr Pt:rraull: Wbul we •••nt is an ~rly debate. w~ WOij)d like IO lislcn witb iotcrt'$t to lhe ame:nd.metut pn;IP05Cid by the t.c.der of the Opposltiocl .a.nd ~ Oil wttll the job,

Stutcw Fly..: I would like tO c:ortoc1 two tbtn,p. As nponcd in H4M111ni.at pagcll07,1aidthe follotliq::

Of course. I OUIS.:l uy ript any tlaat wc on dw sick of the Houe had JIIOC $i"n>:n uy Nlllbk eo tbt dfm. Lcaally we do noot CMSidCf that we 11"' 10 bound

Ttlat ttattnwnt ht Yery dear. Wbtntlle Lead~ ar the ~rll­mcnt Mtd that he spoke of the omnibu.5 antendmcnt. he nevtr lltcd th11t word In the COO~r1111iOM that wo h.ad tlc:vcr; " clear '"nt¥tr". e ( U jO)

SC'•Iahlf Pur11uU: ,.hnt is not acc11rllte 111 all.

& ..acor f'rltJi: Ht>ll()Urt~bJc ~>cttators,, to cry to ft.~rlhcr dnnry the •llllatlon, tbete b ooqucstioa thal dun"-& I he COOn:ftlalions the Loader of the Oppol'ilion, ._. poincrd owe here iJI the dlambc.t. m•de Jt wry cleu tb.at he n1 1101 boufld by the or*r of l .. othu p&aoc or by tlte ~ cUt _.., mtde. Oc.rty. the politioa takdt by dw Ocpucy loldcr cl tbt ()ppowtiOII, rcptdin& to1:rx asp«:U of the qrccMellt • adot m tile otkr pilot. wu a.bo quite tculld. I rcomcmbtt h c:uctly tlt<lt ••r T~ diffc:rc~M:t that we hit~ i$ elcatly, in my IIMW, " loC.al

miiundctttandina on something we took for antnl.ed. 1 afl!l41mod «h.ut •ben we used th~ word -umcndmcnt'' w-e meant amendment, I 111l1Utned we ••ere bringinB it co,etbet with che llll·pili i.Y flgl'ec:menl in tbat omnibus .u~nil~ f.loy,.C"~cr, Senator fllynn teems not to have that undeut.anding.

I do wut 10 llk.c tM ~•nity eo remiod boltourabk sc.ttuort that the pa~hiOft I 1100t: "ere ia tbe chmber .--u Oon$i,tenl wilb I~ po.hion tllat I am no" tald . .n&- I qu-:Me from my introductory commcnu Olt the motiOn for the Selllllt order, at Pl!t 2211 1 or l(o,•Mnl . where 1 t~a id:

Honmmabk Mll.ltOil, the purpose or this motion b eo implement in the Senoto the: all· jXlrty a.greemtttl tl\nl Parlitment should not vot0 011 lhe mot.ion for • joint addreu until I he Sup~mo O::turl of Canada ball tuJ.cd Wl it$ OOfl5tilulionalacccpc•l>iJIIy-

wc referred to thllc pu~J~a~c.. J then qid:

Ncrl, I wttlltO u,pllln the k:ey elements ollhe t.U·party ~ tlaa.t "' rcadaed a oocap&e cl weeb qo. 'lbr ftrSt tkme.t h tllat tk S.prcme eo.rt sbolld haw be(on it tk fomt oltt.c raolution to be woccd IIJ'IOO-

Next, the ~ coroUalie$ to tile perpoiie. a.rwt to those key ckt'MIIll, 1/C IU fol&oJd: (tl li:x .. ,Oit$C Of ComtMnt the forta,olna h~tKlric aarecmcnt rourtd u.ptu. StOn rn. 1t unulmollt houJC order that meant an ttld to amendment• except omnlb11s tt znendmenu pro!)()fCd on behalf or ellth puny by chc p.&rty't~ house leader. P.ad• member or the I-IOUIC of Commons. for thl!i CAti!JiflOflll l occasion, i"ubcwdlntfc:d hit or her individual riB}It to pro. pc»e ametldmentt to the tl,iV!t of his or het part)' to do so: so tluH he or 1he l~d to •-ork out his or bet indlvldu.al wi'be$ in I be party tl~US fOI' C\'ttltu.aJ bprel:iiM)fl i11 the bouse by the party lc.deti.lup.

SeDUOf Ay .. b11 •• r.on.t mjwnclerst:andiq abol:c ,..het happeaed; ob\o.a.sly, I .. w too. I q11t t.o andcrliftc that I did 110t, iD aay WliJ, I ltopc. • blcad hollolarabk ttaaun u to what .. Ja!lldcmandiq was wlwe J said, Qv!Jc duriy, tUt tbt m'J dtiq dut Sca;.tor Ftp• fecb: lie w-u J'IIOC .,mi'IC to wu. I tkouJbc., what he .... lJICeiQf to. That ••:u the p:M:nt I wtll ttyina to mate at lh3ttiCM,

How C"an "!'-c settle t hit mutter? We cannot dcb;ttc it forcvt".r. when the~ d 11 11\hli.lnd•nc.-nd~na.. ,.bcrc must be a •ay ol settling it. rr ~nti!Ot Smllh htu a oompromi§e solution 10 thl;f problem. let ut hear it bc(o•e I pi'(IJIO'C :lnyching cl$e.

& n.attM- S••ilh: I think I have • IIOiution, I do 004 profcu eo undt".T$1.nnd what hat Jl8~cd bct•-ccn the rour JXI.rtieip:lnlt in this dcbale jC) ra, llo.-'C\'er, I got one deur imprC$s-ion ta a rewh ol the avec:rm~nt In thn bouse.. aod that wu 1bat •-c w-ere commincd to liolthl"' the debate by a cuu.i.n time, but 1 <lid 110t get any imprftllo. thJt thd bd to be. at"h~ in a octtaia way, to far •• a~ •we COIICCiiled.

Wl!ct:her I ._ ntfM or tm1111C M tbu ~ raay I Migc.stthat, after all. •• I al!dtruand it, 11tc 'N-iR ~ ol .all ~med s to liMit the clcblte by a certtit time.. Ca. .,._ aot proceed Of'l tbc t.sf1 the Lcador or tht ~t.on .l"Uftt!IU.. namely. th:u we deaf •rth tk s~peratc amcndmcn" •• , opposed to tbe omn~bUJ llll!c.nd.n1c.nt, 11$ Iona"',.~ can s«kl: 10 the fun<bmenllilll ifiUIC or Mnishing by I o'dock Comotrow? b tbac not all v.·c. nca:d?

& 1111hW Rtlbll•t: 'fhlll u 1111 ,.,-c need.

2330 SSNATE I)€HA1'f.S Apri\23, 1981

f1hrnslution) Hoo. Mardal As~Un: Honourable scn:Hots, I h~ve a pet·

$0n:tl problem to submit to the Oeputy l.Qdcr o( I he Govern· ment. Qf CWI$C, I Wit$ not htre last 'o11«k and I fit~d th.al the arrangemcou wbkb tbc Deputy Le3dt r of the Gownu»cnt cltlims to have made- wi!h the- leader of the Opposition ue very $1.1rprisins.

In any evem. 1 s:u.ggcst tlt3! one or tbe other of the par1ies Ius mbundcrStood; they h:n·e miilundcriltood one llMQther. 61H ht re is m)' persooal problem; if you foroe me (0 gi"e an omnibus vote you :!rt going to affect s01ne- of l'nly perlon.al JWi\·ikges, and here iJ Ydty: it i~ quite po:ssible tbo1t lhe government ma.y iDClude in i~ package. in its omnibos amend· ments. certain 30)Cndmenu which I would suwort, which I •Vuld like tQ $11pport, but tlatthe par.:k.age as a whole may not interest me. Should be want to ptooetd that way. nhe Deputy L~der of the Govtrnn•ent w~uld foroe tn~ to l"(>te :~g;•i nllt principles which ( would $Uppor1 in rell.1,tion to a oc::rtain item contained in the package. The same thing goes for otbei members of t.he oppo!>itlon.

lt ts quite poS$ible at> well l.h<U t.he Leader or the ·Opposition ma)' include in his package cettain amet~dn~~ts whic-h I do not Jlke, .... ·bich I w~uld n~t iluppo:t, but th;~.t I find nc•thing repuanllnt in the puclwge 11$1& whQfe. You arc.tbcn for<:ing me to forego my privilege to "'Otc according to my conS~Ciencc and )'OU att · forcing me to vote for the p:1c.kag-e- whicl1 "'ill be present-ed by the l.e<1du Q( the Opposition. We 11~~ ncvtr been in such a situation. I have been in the House of Co(llmons and tbe Sen:ue for nearly 20 years but newr have r $CCn such a situlllion. I bl•ve nC\'et $C:CII tbe privilege$ of tbe members of tbc Hout>e of Commons or of the Senate aiToctcd in such a way. That is .,..,hy. conscientiously, I fafl to undcr~t:\nd how it ean be thut you, the Deputy Leu.der of the Gol-ernment a nd the Leader or the Opposition. ba\•e Utought of denying me thi:s personal prh·ilege.

Senator Frith: Senator A.uelln was perfe« ly right whe~• be. ex.phtin-ed the situlltion which derive$ frQm tbe ~srcc:mcnt made i.n th~ other place.

&a11tor Audin: I am not talking a bout tbe ochoer plaoc, am talking about this place.

Seutor Frltlt: Oh yes.. hcte. agreed.

S~M!tor As5tlln: We are not sitting in tbe House. of Com· tnGtlS, we are sittfn,! in tl~ Senue. :wd we h~ve to t~l:o on• 0"''" tied~ ions. Set~tttor Frith: V ou are quite-right. A$ I t>aid be re in &gli$h

on Tue511~)', u d in French on Wedndday. there are excep­tional eircunutanoct., and tbe privileges ~fenl'd hl &y Sen.:!t<lr A.f$elin were su3pendcd in the other place.

Sco.n.aiM A3~c:Ur.: I C~:~,nnQI accept tllilt my privilcr.cs. be Sll$pc:11<l~d .

Sqnatot Frith: That is exaetl)' what I u id. That is wl•y I do n~t un<ler.U3nd hl>w <:umc th il); qucsti<)fl wns not n:ai9:d during the debate ~nd before the \'Ote. I did say that there were t:\Ct ption.al cirC'Umstances and that \IO"'e were .• S<l to speak.

($u-1Wtll.,l

$U$pending oor privileges. ll.'l the hQnoumble senator .by$. We made our own decision. 11 WOIS not the doci~ion Qf the otb~ plate; it '!\'as our dcci~ion to oomply v.•ith the same principles. 1'h:H is why, as I explained ),e,e and 11()( there. that wt- find our.selves in the situation d~ribed by Senator Allsclin.

Seutor Audin: That is nQI poosible. S.:Mt(lr t<rith: 11 is mQte-th:1n po$11ii)lc. h i$ not l:IOmCIIling

we made up, that I can assure you!

Sto~U~tor Asst-lilll: On a point of order. My leader ~annot take aw;,y my privileges :U :l seml.tOr. I h:sve t.he 1)1'lvileg.e to v<lte on an amcndment or another, ~ocording to my coMciencc,, Now, you ate forcing, me to vote ag11inst my views and my (;()m;c;icncc.

Sna111r frith: Th:u is ~,~o•bat the Senate has decided.

St-.utur A1111dh•: I cannot :~ocept that. 'n1ose are my pch•i· leges. My privileges have been suspended. nnd I annut aeoept it. I cannot 11nderlitand bow my leader OO\Lid ha\'e aoocpted­

& nator Frith: Honourable senators, let us U)' lhut I put che m~tion and that t11e Se1l11tt decided.

& n11tor Lan&lols: Let him blame. his leader. S~n3f0r Ffitl1; I pot the mottoll and, as I dearly safd, the

ret>tll ts a rc: just 1111 d oeribed by Senator A$ll:elin. lt el•entl~-.1 1ly became a n order of the Senate. I am not the one who made tbe order. What does tbis mean tbctl? You say no. that il "'u not an ortter? fh1t it w:..s an <nder! f-lo.,.oever, I h:we. e.xplaincd th:u thi~ does not go against the explanation I gave in Eoglish on Tuesday and "''hich I repeated in French later. This explana· tioo Co'ln be f<1u nd a.t I gave it cwlce. Have the.se !actt been im-ented by $0tnCOne?

Se• atm Asstlltt: I do 1101 know. I was llOI here. Se~tatOf Frith: Wet!. what do )'(141 Wlllnt if yc.>u v.·cre not here'!

I explained tbi$ clearly, I hop~ I said tbat w-hat ~,~o-c were going tO do wat to apply lite principles app1owd in the other pltlce., siDec. tbelie u.re quite ex~ption-11 <:ircumsun~. :u I cfcl~:rly explained. . ~~~ (English)

rn tht house or Commons c.he hou.se ord~r meoman end to ~mendment$. F.ach member o.r tl1e House of Commt•n:~, for chi8 ex.~eptional occasion, ~ubc>rdin<~(.e(l hi ~ or her ind1vidutll right.

!Trml.!lafi~ll) An<! then I sai4 tbai tbi$ was whlll we. w;.nted tl> do bere. 1t

is unfortuna te if this is nol clear and if SCIIators Mselio and Flynn do no• .sec my exptlw:ation in tl1at light. In any c.ase., it is truc-Sw~tcor A.~~lht : 11 U a ~hame. il is absurd. You a~ not

going (O pcrt>i$t in trying IQ I~v-e u.1 :1d1nlt that-Scllalor Frlt11: No. it is not abwrd, h seems to me that there

i$ nc>thing 11bl:urd a t all. 1t ill only tbat tbtse are very excep­tional cir~umsUnocs. as I h"\'C CJtpUiined tv.·ice-not ooc:c, but t~,~oice.

April23, 1981 SF.NATE DEBA1'F.S 2331

[£ngli.rA) Scoator Perr.ault: Your leader :t.g.real to it.

Seaaror Asselin: No. he $aid that he did not.

f TFQIISfotiOtt)

& nator Frltll: In nny e~s.e, what can you say? You st~y n<l! For my JX:rt, vrh;al I want to say d this: this ide:r h113 been explained twi~e in HanUird. in French ~&nd in EnaiW.. Even thoug.h I e.xph<lined twice the same pri:nciple whicb is now c:tus::ing Ull I& problem, there setms to be some mbunders!l¥md· ing: we must therefore. try t<l setde this maue.r. HowC'Ioocr. I believe tluu 1111 tbL' i$ quite clear in H(mumi.

StiUitQt' Flyrut: Do )"OU Jave a OOnclusion'!

M uator frith: There arc t\lo'O possibilities.

IEwglishj Stn:uor Gros:art: lolonollrable .scnatOf.s., it seems clear that

there i$ :1 m4 undenta00ing lt~re. I would think tbere wQllld be general agrcemeot t h~t if t hero is :1 mi$-understanding, ~her-e was oo a.greer•nent.

Secondly, we are confronted -A·ith wh;at il> un order or the Senate. There are difference~; or opinioo u to what that order actually says. 1 WJ~$ nQt a party to any ()f the discussioos. $0 I .. :.-nnQt, in any \lo'\ly, say who said wl1at :~.t any purciwlar •ime, but I am $Utpriscd to ltetlr il rcpe~tcd over and O'let again that son.ctbin.g 11131 wa~ dc.:icl«! by the p.uty lcadut -A'U bhtding on the Scn11.te or on members or ti!OU p:trtiell in the Scn.;~~te. I d() not bcJieve that tl~t iJ JO. I a m no• bound by any agreement rnade. by any le;•der of any party, any place.

I rise- if th-e lime oome.s when I can luve the llttenti(ln of the Deputy leader or the G(Wt:rnmcnt- to suggest tbat it i~ hnporuot tb:u th~rc nQW be agreement as to how we :SJ1all proceed. I lta,·e to $a)' that, in my Yiew, the whole problem ha.s been caused by inepthude and, perb.1ps, inexperience ifl the lutndling ()r thit mutter.

So111e Holf. &11ators: Oh. oh.

St'uator PerrauJt: 'J'h.;u 1$ d isgraceful.

S~~ttor (;I'(J~lllrl: I beg )'OUt pardon? J ;arn perfectly entitle<f to say tbat I think t.hc matter hq.$ been ineptly handled.

$t:IUII J.K" llt1ckwokl: By whom?

&oator Crosart: By the l~dcrsh.ip or the governtn('nt in the Senate. There i~ nothin3 new in this. This l1as been s:1id <)ver 11nd qver a.piD wit.h rC$peCt to bilb. Wl1at i:s everybody gellina .so e;(cited about? I say tbtl t it h:•:s bce.n ban<31ed inepcl)'. The resson I feel it h:ls been h11.ndlcd ineptly is tbat the .sugges tion wu mac.k earlier that the norma.! -A'S}' to proceed w;as rw 1.1$ to wait until we I'Ctci ~-td a m.e.tMtge from the House 1>1' Commons.. That is the n<M'mlll pr.-ctice ••ben a propositim1 U bc:fore P11.riU.mcnt llu t thC:Ie be a Joint Addri.'Si tO f-ler Mujt:$ty. The decisioo was made th:u we would nQI proeeod that wa.y. I rtpeat that I think it W\15 i.nept to make the decision Mt to proceed in the normal way, :111d tbat that in e~ptne$s h015 CiiiiSetl

the problems tha• ~re before us now.

30084- 147

I susacst that it is poss-ible to resolve tbe matter. I see rlO objection to dealing with tbese motioos one by one. expedi~

tiously, !'wd under what""•et 11.8tcement nu~y be f)((C$:SIIfY to met't t ho time· limit. Tben. if it is the wisb or tbe kadcr.sllip or the govemmct~t in the Sell3tc. we should match up, if I may U;SC lha.t phrase. tlte de<::i~ion tll.ken in the Sen:•te on tile rC!.'II)I utM>n with the decision taken in the other place. or cour$C, I can see thattbat is desirable. I fully und~rstand that .

Haviog d r:alt with thde mot.iQn:s, c:n::n ~·ilh a. limit.,tion on dcb;ate oo each one. we wooJd deal witlt each nlotioo sepa.rate.­ly and then htwc an umbrella moti<ln, if )'Ou like, which would deem the Scru~tc IQ h.wc ~uod 3 similar motion to tbat passed by the Ho~J.S~C or Commons.

I ha~e not disc~Used tJ1i$ with my lc<~:der, q.nd he m;ay n()( 118n:e with me, b~t I thin.k it is or the Utl1tC)St importance that this matter be resolved. I would eveo sugg.est, if it \$ ntei:S3:lry, tl1:tt the Se:n:tte adjourn at thi$ puoint $0 thut diswl>Si<.Jnl> can t:rke pbcc: in nn attempe to I'(:SOh-c this matter i.n a 111'1\)' that would be a crccjjt to tbe. Senate: and I beliew lh~t that \$ possible.

SeMtOf Frldt: HonouraWe senators. I will not mate :uly <:omments oo the adjecti ~·e uiled to dekribe IM,w.· we coune abuut thix. lt i$ n()l the udjectivc 1 woold ll$C. The:re 111-ere Jong and ca~fuf ncgotialiOit$ undertaken.. and I must say that they were undert~ke-n in good hun,our. Sc:nlttOt f'lynn, in pu ticul:tt, at '~~<-ell as Sen.:~wr R(lblin, $cn01Wr Pesrault and m )'$elf •wkcd long hour:s 0\'ct the period or a week or so to settle this malttr.

I believe d1At the purpose-

Se• •ll.K" Cr0$11rt: J rise on a point or order. When I u.sed the adjective "inepc", I ~'tls n()t tefeffing to wha• went on In the discus.~ioM. I wail referring IQ the original <.lcci$ion whtcb lund Qlhers protes-ted, 1'bat is all.

Sf'n3tor Frhll: I underStand. M I $aid, tbe. decisiOn and the wording Q( the order were meant to r'eflcct 1111'0 things; to adopc, as far a.s poS$ible. the decision nu~de in the ot.hcr plaee; and to rencct the ag~nw:nt rj::l.cllotd by Sen:rt(>r flynn, Sc.nu· tQr Roblin, Scn:HQI Perra.ult and mys-elf. 11111·ent through many versiOit$. I tried to explain clearly "''hat it~ eonscquetlee5 were when I inttoduced the niOC.km, and I beliCIIIe th:ll t he order expn:$Se:~ thllt intent and that it d()CS so clearly. I believe that tbe only way ou1 of thl$ dirf'tc:uh)'. since we ueat an order or the-Sen~te the same. a$ a rule, i~ tO have x rnlinJl on it rrom 1-ti~ I·IC)n(lur. We c;an debate funbcr to try to persuade His Hono1•r as to b~>w he sbould rule. but in my ' 'iew the wording iHicar arld I have r)()fhing to add to my position that there. i$ an intention w e!ltabli~h l.>oth bct e and in the other place. the principle or omnibus arneDdmcots with all the undesirable. or, at leut. unusual consequences thtlt flow from it. This is an ex:certknl31 $ilu:uiqn in whkh th-e 1hr«1 l)llrtit$ re.1ched th" ;,grcemenl.

The agtcemenl that \\'&S reached in t.he ()!.her plaoe we. tried to iruplerne.nt he;c:. One Qf the key clement.$, 11$ I cxpluincd. wa.s. thi$ omnibus feature. and I believe !hat that is wbat tlt<c order meal!$ and wb&t Hit Honout will ruk it provides.

SEII.AT£ DEBATES April U. 1911

Mut.or S.ltk H«<outable SCMtort. I rile 011 a poial ql Otdn. I wbll to rtist ooe poi11t wttil rctpect to 11 commcat made by tbc l>cput1 Lead« o( the CiO'fcmmrtlt '"' the rJfcct tbll t tbe oaly way to deal with the order W'll to ha"" e ruJU\& fi'Ofn th" Chair. While r ~uite aa.rte thll.t nn ordet> shoukl be t~tc:d 1n the 'amc: 111\\f a1 a rote, it fCcnu 10 me th.at it h perfectly proper-aDd then: is no ~a.on wl1y it 1bot1ld not be done If 11 la de:drcd-to an'len.d tii.At orde:t 10 that ""'e can lay out some ~;oun~e: of action t<l cMWc u~ to aet out of this dtrficulty. about whkb J mab no commc.n1 11 to do or what i• to blame.

Surd)'. OUT mtio wk oow iJ to filM! a way tO £d out or tbi.s d•rrtewdty .. d to ooqiy •·itll .Ut J 1tiiJ tlliok U the fnda· ~Mfttal ob,tt~M: ol everybody, Mmdy. to flftUb th~ debate by a ClCNua tune tomorrow. IJ we cu ammd tk «dc:r ... a way ••k• • iiR llll«t t.bt ccoc:raJ w&.ha ol die S.C.te u4 aot hnpcdr thr Jfort eo re;adltluit ~rve ot tl•. t~ h 5tftl'IS

to me tUtlhat miallt be (I)O$jdc~ u an alt<-rnatiT'C to &.Utll&; ror a r•li.na from tiLe Cb3ir. • (Uiot

& 11ator rrltil: The rtaSIOt'l I do not wlih to amend the order it becau,e. l bdfcvc the (lrder ll.C:OOn!pllsha wbru ll "''U meant eo uteompiL,h, n~mely, M ncMiy ~~~ f)OII•Iblil the: ltMplll!lrt•tJ•ta· don of the all-pany agtrenlent In che other pltu;c, whi~;h hw:ludcd the ooutlbus principle..

s,IUitCir n,...a: Not bere.

Stutor fill .. : Suitor f1)·n.n cka noc ~.,pt~e with me oo t!Mt. but I ~aa,~ 11o be bonet:t hy aylrta lhac it •hat I _.n<kntood we •ue ~ and d"l d •lt)' I do DOl . ... , 10 amced bcca.w I t.biat h s:a ys .-hat h 11 Mppoled 10 lilY

St•t• fl....-..: Yoa ..-crc:afnicloo teU .,a..c.. Sf111tw f'r[tll: NOlat a.!l.

St111IOf Smith: Horu:n.:n1ble ~M ton., ilt further d:IS(:~nsloa of the poi.nt of ordet. I am oat sugp~tins. by my I;OIIIJC of DC:tion, that t he Deputy Wdcr or lhlil 00'r'lltn11lent it wroog ot Chat the ordcs "wrona,. In rae4, wh.cn I f.liJICSt llniClndint il, I mu&l Implicitly be suggesting t hat it b tl3ht; bu•. right <K

wronJ, 11 d(lt:li not !ieCm 10 m~:et with &<uH!rll l fl lloJlf.OV!IJ. All 1 1m IUIII!JiinJ is 1.hat i~Utead or lr&uin& whellkr lt I~ fi&ht <w wroll£.. can we not atncnd il by ag.reement »0 tbat we Ciln act on whh wh.u •-c ncod to gei on with, thll la. the auempt to ttacll tbe end of tbe debacc by 12 o'clock or one o'clock toa\Oifrow. w~er it is? I am 1101 clear in my mind •·hit time 1t ll. n..t a aot any Ufla'iiCa o. t,k dtpny bder. rrt)' 0'*11 tc.dn or ••ybody cUe. t.c mndyaa e:tron 11o ·~ tile ..-ay i• wllil:• we tuy tt:SOfire Ut c~Ufk.lay.

11-. Htatil M~.a.rrlr. Hot1011nbk tc:MWI.. ., ooc wflo it not IM"QQIo,ecf in any dl«:u$S.IOU aad,lllcrc.fOf~ I •• ~ ,.uy at •lr1i11 a.s Ux dri~n 1now, I •tu ltnl)fWlsrd b1 the .wqadon or the: '"''Y sct~ior legi•tator, Senator Orosilrt, that whcft tltlt honourable houst geLS into any difficulty there U a very u'dul n:nue.. 1100 that is to ltavl!l rrce aM in!ounal dltcutKion, like the British used to IHiy, .. behlncltltc outain~," rnthcr tha 11 pUJhing 11 towards sonWlt ltina. I thi.n I; Senator

llltu+(Jt l'tlt"l

Groptt's 111~ "a YCt) --* ooe.. and tbe wisdom of du.t senior kJbtlll'f'C body iiiO!fi+Ctbiag that we CXM~Id tRM i• thit rec1rd.

Senator lo'rlt~: HolloChlubJe 'enalor$. then~ u no quc!IUOO that more titan o~ nrncndnt4tlt could be proposc:d. T~,e Is no qu~tion nbout th:u ,

&11.1tvr Flym•: Then there is a mi$understandin11. I Will

goinc to i UaJe11 rollowht;, the. idea !)Ut forward by SenfUOr Smith., that all t l1c amondmcnt1 would be dull wrth, 001 in one ''Ote but at the ••mo~ ttme. aftd ~--e would riac the bell only oact .. l( the Ltackr or the Oorernmttll wuts 10 put the a.mend:mcnu '+llhK'h IYYC been adopted by the otbu plaoc $Cplll.ld)'--for 1Nt&DC&. the suprcoacy of God, i• one q•c:to tiolft: tlrlc. aq11slity q/ ._..... 1n uodta q•esdoe: a.nd liO ce­'IIK wotdd vote (tOfll 11 o'dod on witltoot intem~piJOa The YOte wo.W be c:.IW. ud 'llt'C '111"00:1 ¥Ore oo ea.c• quc:MICMI at proposed. The l..clckt o( IIM (iOtTtarncnt WOd.kJ Jt(ll.nte hb amendments the •2)' he witbet, a!Jd I ~1d move my amend menu one by OM the way I wisb. The quca•ion would be resolved wit bout the interruption ol the bell ria.ginc for taClh vote. and we W011ld be able lo dc.l with the amc:nd~nts In n very ordcsly ta•hion. 'Mlril woJ my understandins.

Sfll1116f l''rltlll: 1•101\0~UIWe ~rni l (lrS. I guest t he rlll1iundero $l11nding il widet tbll~t llhousbt. I oould noc ~lieve there Wlll any que..-tion about aft)' mbuude•-standiPg. 1 am ~ayina ~~ohat I uld. and SenatOf Auclin 'h11kcti hit head at If I did not ttty it 1tnd perhapa thit wa• made up b)' &Omebody, belt look <U what it N)'l ;. parq:rapll2::

No ai'IK:ftd~MJ~U or Mb.al:l1tndmtnLS may be propoll(ld to the aid moc• w:ept t1to1e II)Ollt'O:I by the lacier o1 the. Ciorcrai'CIIIt

SNatot llyn: n..-. ril.ht Sfltar., •"rilh!: A !Id I am .still qllotitlc:

-a.nd the Le.tdcr or ch:c Ops:losrtloo in tbc: Sc:mte or Friday, Aprll24. 198 1, aa pn,wided bercin;after.

Stnator Flyfla : I do 11()( lwow i( Senator Frith undc:r.ttood what I mc::t.nt.

Seflator Fthh: I did not.

Senat(lr F1)•n11: I nld tbc amcndrnerus y.•iJJ ha~e to be m<W<Id by the Leader or the G(n-crnmc.nl and by the Leader or the Oppositto.l, but h wtll not be an om11ibus ameDdment by the Lcadet of the Govenuncnt.. I r he wants ~~ to be so, that it M1 OW.'Q bvtr.ncss.

St.tcw 0..0.: I le a)'S •bit be Us to mote.

StcatCif R)'-..: Ya. S.ppDK I .. YC r~ amnd.lntllts.. We •'Ill YOtc- en 11! thole uteftdments wi•*• lu'tino& the bdl twna becwecfl cadt quntion.

A• l-lo•. Su11tor. Scpllnl.ldy .

Se•atl)r li'IJnn: Vet. You 1."1&n take a ~tand on 11ny que11ion, and by ooe o·clwlc we will ~ tluough. That is the objectlv~;,. That you should W'lnt I<J l'Oie on apples :md mangd; 111 11•• $lime time 11ce•~ rtdlculoiU. it ma)' be that in tbc <~•her l)liu:e

ApnllJ, 1911 SENATE D£8ATE$ 2Jl3

cilcy •uctd 10 do that; tNt tllat is 1'10 ~,. ol oun 1r dw clcptU)' luder a.ncf the Leader of tbe Oovanmcnc do lfi04 want to aettpt my propo~~ul, I will ul His Ho~Wtir to rule on tha qu~lOft, but I mu$t poi:ru out cbat nowhere '" tbt orde r 11 tltcn~any mention that tbete will be un omnibut llm(lldment.

A• lion, Se•lllor: Ncn in the other pbce.

Sfnlfor Jo'lynn: Yoo do 001 change the ruh:11 or nonnal praC'Iico-41\at of being able to mOYc 1eporatc: amc~ndn,entt. for u.amplo-whhout spclUna out tile fact, and you Cll ttnot lr'ltn• pr~ the order that •:as passed at cfl•ltJ!.ina that fund1.mentaJ prlntipk of orderty parliamentary dc:blle. If d11t wuc to be the dodslon. I think I wouJd simply cbpair ot tblt p&aoill.

n. IIM. lk S,n.br. H.oaoursbk ICNIAift­

Stutor Prrra••Jt: HOOOill'able teuiOr'r-

Tlw Uo.. tlilt s,tdtr. I wa111 to ~ my opalcMt oa iC. t.l lr you ha.-c JOmtth.fn;& to wy. plase proomt

St•~tDt' l'ffnttJt: Hooou.rablc u n:tto!'\1. ml)' I bncny add thi1: I do rec:all. in the ooune ur wr ducu.uionln tbc el'lamlb«. that the Ltlld.et or tile Oppo»itioo mad~ what he r.lt W;&.t a valid point, und I know d1ose who supp~>rt lite ~ltlon mull bnve rclt the P rtlC way. He ::mid, ··wr: wane to lune the opl Wln 10 luwt In our plt<:lwge of amendm~nls pcthll llll d llftr.tl'lt ft:nllm:t tiUin tho!lc advanocd by our pa.rty in tbc OC~\'.r pl•c:e:· All honourtble &C.Jtalott recall th11t di:scunion

Stmil(lf' Jlyt~.c Sure.

Snu• r 1~nn11h: 11 ~A'ti COM1naed. •t OM pola1. tMI tile effect or tH Nut Otdtr .mdet d~ • ·•• tUt tbe OIJP»i· don anw.dlr'K'Itt pacQae berc woald laaft 10 d•pllcatc t.ht OJmcn.dw lflitiatil'e ia tbr atber ~ ne fO"miDCDt 8Jt'C'IId tlllt var;ac..o.s shollltd mou cmain.ly be pcnutkd la lftc CCM'Ikt .. I~YIC motion.. Cett~ialy it ln.l IJIOmod by ~· lklnourable tcnators that tbe Consef"t'atiYC KIUIOn ln a•wa WCM~Jd moct tocdhtr tO detcrmiDC: and to dcx5dc tbc lltne.-14

menu thillt tht)' rcJt to be appropriate-

Se•ahlf Fl)tttt: " 'o.

$co111hlr l'tJT•ult: -.and bcx:ause of tit'n<l (OIISfrnlntll fi nd debi,tlniJ con~tnainu;, tbut tbcse would be v01od Ull<ln a~ • pac:knto.

Stllafor flput: '"TTme ootlstntinu""? I am ~uj!M.Citi., to 1011 that we: can deal W1th il in lulf u bour

S.u1or P~rl'll..tl: We havr; listeDCd eo you vuy card11.ny. a"'S OC!tWt~ly tile Dr:puty Leader ol the ao..en.~ntec ha dc:fcribol1 o.r 11~ of Ut lituat.on, atld tMl rcme.im. o.r •ndmt.lndlq. Wt rdt that 11 ._ a rare .onwd ~ it~ the •r"h of aooctwiJi1 io a aoiq•e parlia.~ne•ta,. ,.tudoo.

St•<~l., 1>1)••: Hab! &•:-.tiM' l)ilttta111t: I wa.nr to aNUnl hooouraM~ Knaton­

M.utilf f'l) IUll r agree wilh yoo tbut th«c .... JOO(IwiiJ then., bul I here lt.n 'c 11ny more.

S.:n1110r l't.r1'11ull: What $Urprise.s me IR thnt r1 p~ure which hM boc:n approved by his own n:Hi<lf111llcadcr

Stucor fly• : Ttlat is Mt llle q~~e~t"-.

Seutor Ptrnntll: -.ncl a YOIIIII pnxcd'u.rt: which has been cOOorscd by the J'it.riY itt <he otbcr plac~

StMtot FlJll•: Tlut b no1 mycooctrn at aU.

St:muor Pernult: HO'*!rublo 5enatol'll In optl(Uition iui"C!I}' aue11d the nat..lonll l c:t.ucu• m~dnjll or ChClir QWn po~rty, yet ""'C

have t.he $urprialna 11t1111tiM where Cbe)· )iavc di.sown~ the 8JI,r«mc:.nt-

Seltuor Fly•~~:: Blab, blab. blab!

~au:w Ptfnult: - they tlavcC»>Idemncd the procedurtt­

SeutOit Fl!-U: 81th. blah. bla.~

&r.ator P«n•tl: -alld Htdy il is a t:auSle roe ICide

m.~ifoliom.IO 11)' tile kaJt

Stutor .A..Isdlc So th~ place ck9crvu to be d~ ud •bolisbed.

Seutlw Roholin; Of c"'utc, we lw:ve not disowned what is JOing on i.n the other plbeo. 11 it ooc our business to disoy,n it. eltber iJt eaueua or out o( euucut.. h " thdr lxl$irte:s~;. We 11rc ju~;t wnoc:med ""'ilh our fntcrut here. If His Honour is going to t.al:e the matter under rc>t lew, llw:re Is a tCAtual lllt et•pteta~ cion which I tt~pec-trully du'«t h•• attenti-on to in dtt tl$C $, whcrt: il u.ya:

e~-ery qu«:cbl necaury to d1s-pose c.f 3.1l)' amend .. me:nu-

Tbe •Otd '"amend'.mccn•"' l1 in the phn.L ~cd by tk Ladtt ol llw: Go\~t oc by the l.ader oltlle ~do.

TUI mil.fM Uve *MM -tint 0. the q~~e&tiott of tile mtmbn" of atl'la'ldmmu tbt Nij:ht be ~ to be mc.ed by t" Lodu ol tbe OPI*iHon 1t doe& not ay lle cu oo.Jy ~ ....

Snuuor Fritll: Tbe wotd in the prCQCedin.g clause is used in tbea.ingulsr twice.

Srlllltl)r li.ly• n: I oorrcc:tcd I hut.

&wu cw Rolllill: Thnt l1 why .,.,.e cor~ected that.

Sen:~~cw frith: Whc.rc?

Smator Flfrut: In my 'P(<da.

Seurw RoWi•: Tbc dqM~~t)' ltadc:r •sb .-here we ClOIT"CCitd t.hat. 1t is fo-nd at .-,c 1l07 el H~~~tuvd of April U. i• tbt ~4uf pa.ragaph froat tile fllollom. h U)S:

1"ho$r: an tk ..,._...,1 poiftts. There wue • few~· m, opiaioM abo.c Lite ttJ.I, pc•hlPio Setlator bbequarne did tiOtiee thtm u wtll. indlldlAf u thoe- Wlp or p:l,te l'l4

th-e f.act t~t the l.caclct o( tile O<Nemment m.ay proporc

.. amcndmt:nll'", but thnt lbc Leader o( lbe Opp:~Sitlon may propose .. nn omendmcnf', Obviously. this is :l &ftHn• m.3ti.:al mistake., but I bellt"Yu th•t the plur;1l 1hol•ld be IJ.SoCd bodt for the Leader ur the Government and for the Leadct ~~the Omxu:ltion.

2334 SCNATU I)(!BATES Aprii2J. 1981

~t-.mltw P~:rra r.~Jr: Th~e are tile QOiflponent pares or 1be amendments,

Sctull(lr MOOiin: 1'h111 i$ whut the ;ug11ment is nil nl:xlut. is it not? I bcliC\'e Senator Smith ba.s &i''«< us a pmc-tical sugges­tioo. Tbe main thing t.bc gO\•ermnent wi.~hes tO d<> is to nl~ke­$ure the: Sem&tc: ill:tf$ in $t<:p with the I-IOII$C of Comm()fl5 and has th-e number$ to do that. 1'be $C:QO(Id thing they want to do is to ensure t.hat no one-drags bis ot bcr feet and that we settle the rttjtlet "'·hbln thc-lim.e frame prcvioursly a&~d to. No one is walkin_g away from that. What we are tea!Jy sayirtg is that we 'llo'OU!d like tbe opportunity to pN:sent our several smend· mc:nts seti:ltim, One at n time, lwd 'o'()(e 00 lllem c.me at 01 time in an expeditioos manMr at 12 o'cJock tomorrow; .aJld if it t3kes anothe-r 12 or I S minutes beyond 12 o'Clock, ( :~hould expec-t thlll 11) be the m~~oxim1.1m . l do not sec a.nylbina wrong "''ith tbat, ttnd I hope that His Honour the Speaker might fi nd th!tt to be a se-nsible llm'lngc-ment. • ( tS,tl))

Th~ Hon .. tllte Sptaker. I would ttsk the honour~ble. sen.stor a (juestion far my ow-n enliglltenment'? He h111 $pc)ken of 2.

corre~ion that has been made. Where can I IOI.!&te tl!at correct ion'?

~IUitl)r "OIIIin: I :1m $peltl: int of a OQirecdon thr!.t wjS tequcstcd. I refer you to Jlll3C 2307 or /Nba1es of the Stmlle {o.t Wednesday, April 1 S, 19&1. 1t ""'~S 11 request m~de by tbe l.eotdcr of the Oppo$itic.>n in hi$ reply when the m01ller w;1:s first discussed. No objectjon v.•as made to his request for a corro;­tion 111 thlll time.

SerultQr Dc:~u:tu•tdds.: Wouki the hoooun&bl~ &en~~otoor plc~lioC read it?

Se• Afor Roblia: I ha,·e just finished reading it, but I will read ic ag.1in. Towards tbe end of tbe litst column on puge 2307, "''bete it starts to g« i.nterestiog. it Sll)'S:

- tJ1e lt:11der (){ the Gtro~rflrni:nt may propose ' ':uncnd· ments". but that tbe Leu.cler of tbe Opposition m~~oy Jlf~>" pose "an amendment". Ol)'dously. this is a gracnmatieal miMate., btlt I belie.~ tPIIlt the plul'\1!1 s.bould be u:sod bolh (or the Le;de.r of the Govemment 111 nd fqr the L-e.1der of the Opposition.

No rdponse was made to tbat. No obj~tlc>n wu U'tke.n to it at the time.. 0111<.1 I slwuld tbink it was quite n<1 tur011 fol" the one who made tbe statement, and those. who listened to him, a.s I did, to ;USutne th~ll the pr<lpo~J •·as :letej)ted: a!lld I was rather surpri$Cd tQ find that the correction w1uo not m:tdc wh~n Honso'd <:lime out originally.

Wh.:~ t is the point I am ttyint IQ m~k.c'~ My JX>int is thtH we on this side of the hOII$C fore.saw the nature or this dj:;c;I,IS$ion h-ere today, in the 9Ct.SC 1Mt our position would be tbe one t.hat ill c:x1>rtikd ltc:re, and we v.'Ould wi~h to make- sure that the rOOution acoommodated tbe po$ition we q. re trying to tukc. Had we been told on April 15 that V.'C were going to m-eet $0110e opposition to th~t. I d:l.re.s3)' tbert would h11ve bc>ttt mote arsument on it nt tbll.l time; l.>l1t •ppartnliy o1.1r p~iti e>n , frt>m our point of view. appeared to be aocepted . So we were quiet; ~·M.dlll .. ,

we were satisfied: we &at down. Now we find that such is oot the case.

Hila. C<'Of'it n~» Ro~e1t: 1--looourat>le scnat(l(~. I would ask yo11to beJ!r with me for 11 moment while I try 10 de11l wilh this mlllter. 1t appeared that we were on tbe verge of rewMna the business of this wcet in t1t1 amicable faahion. a~ apparently is hilppc:ning in tbc other plnc;c. 1t ~cm$ to me that the. prindp~~l point being made by tbe oppooition is tbat indeed the order refeM~to a sitlglc a ntel'ldroont. in the cue or tbe amendn1ent to be moved by tlw:: ~;uler or the Opp<v.~i t.ion in l)l,ltl\graplt 4-3/'ld indeed it does. They make the co&e tbat lll ter, in the OOtJr.se or the debate. tl~ La der of tlte Opposition uid exactly -.•h.at Senator Roblin hlll$ j11st re:Jd to us-n.11n.ely, he took objcedon to tbis word bc:in# in tbcs.iogular ratbct tluln the plum!.

Senator Roblin putt &rt3t weight on the fM:t tha t no response or objo;lioo was ma.de fr(lm this side-of tJ1e h011.~e wbe.n that was aajd, I( .,..c are to pJace m11c:h weight on m)p(lf!Se or objcc:t ion being made to a statement, then we mitht lool: 11t what retp<1n~~::1 11nd objections were mndc by tlte Leader or the Opposition-or. ror that mauct. membeN on the other ~ ide-to Senator Frhh's descriptioo a day earJjer of whtlt this order W'llS de~igned to do.

11 was not an order designod simply to limit debllte to " sh·en time, n:l1l'tety. !\lOOn of Friday, tomorrow. That would have been <an cn$y order te> dnw. lt was 1111 Otdct much more complex than that. In his state.ment oo April 14 c~pl ;~~ining tbc o!XIe:r to thit bouse- 1 am tcaditlg from page '228 1 of Htm· snrd- llc bnd :llu::tcly referred to s<1me: of bi:s re-marks on ti1.U day. But I want to refer to further rerr111rks tll.at l1e mnde, which I do 001 think he has yet touched on. They go 0\'er to p;tge 22U.

While I do not think tbc order i$ umbiguOU~tlnd, if it were, Setlator Aynn would not have beeo ooos-trained to 1aise objoctiQf'l to the. uJ;e of the word ''amendtncnt" In the s insu· Jar- if We dowment-! dQ not wu.nt to set mto too deep an 11rgume11t with my leg111 confreres in this ohamber-

Seoatl)r l'lynn: You h11d better lt()L

Sett:u&r \'fill Rogge11: If tbe document i:s nml>iguou.~. llS he cl.;'liml il l!!. petbllps we need to go to the surroundill£ C¥idenoe tbat exists, His $UrrQUnding evidence is one rtmatk thllt "amendment" sboutd have boeo plural, and thi1t the &Qvern­ment l it!t did n01 respond to t~t. l et us consider what tbey did not resPQnd to when thi~ whc>lt- pro«Ss was be-Ing explained by Senator Fri1h on the day tx:fore. They m~tde no rdponle· to all of Se.nstor Frith'• repeated asscttions that this Wll5 a mQIIt unu;;uaf C:i rCI.HnSt.:woo-

Sc• ator Penau.lt: Righl.

St• ator ~'fill Roggt:lf: 11 i~ a very c.xcep4ional Otder, an Qrdcr tO meet vtl)' exceptiottal cireumstancca.

& nll t()l- Fl)'tur. Come on!

Se~tlllor Y:m Rogg~•: 1t is all tbete.

SeniiiOt Fly•u•: There wa~ no text before us 3t tba_t time. 1'ry to be decem.

Apr'&lll. 1981 SE."'fA TE De8A TES ZJJS

Stu10or ,,... Jt..-: l un bci•& prrf«t.ly decal!, tlsan.k J'l*· l am ••)ina-Sft~ator tl111a: Slave cl the m.ajoruy! Sra11or ,,.. Ronc:n: r do 004 need 11n)" iMIJue'llon• from cbc

Lclldtr of the Oppo~>ition..

St~t~hlf H)·nn: I sJ • .:.u!d n<>t b11ve to li)ll:n tu t~upldhy or thi'l! kind.

Se~tll lllr •·aa Rogtn: I :'lm perretdy CApubiCI ol being. decent, Ju•t a• much aJ tlle l.etckr or the Opp<Jtition.

SftUICW' Jl)llft! Go lhctd.

Snat« "U lt~.: SantOt Fnt.h has rcacltoft:W ~r tlilc=K reiMtb. Ht lw opb.iocd Wt ••• hid &o br u nocptioll'!lal onkr when u was dra·n. vp a.nd l.p'Ctd to.thllt lc. wu aa ordtr 10 lltCd. ¥C:f)' bClL"pCiou} c:imacm&aJKICI l'kl;, haftou01Wc ICNIIOI'l. to.-.rdl tlte b::lftom ol tft IO(ll)lftCI OOII•mn on ptte Uti h R)'l:

- 1 shall not re~d every •'Ord o( U1c moliOft, l~ciafly, the fira.t PII111Cr•pb seu aside tho!IC two da)'l nut •·ed:: for den ling willl tl•e molion. The aecond parllgtllph provida~ liMi t in th ill cbambcr. al in the othe1 J)l;\~, no amend· tnlltllil or &Ub·:unendmrnt& moy be propa»>d eo tho satd mocion ucept thi.'Se moved by the Wch:r ol tbe O<wcrn· nlCIII tnd the Leader or the OpPQiition in the Senate

A nliOit tx'-'ePtional provisi<m. There Is DO qi&Cftlon abot.it tb:n, I would ay to ~o1tl)f A:lscfjn:

Tlw: third pl'\'l¥isioa Is tbt the qwutaon 011 the •m~t.nd~ mtnt to tltc moticra mewed by SculOI Yuryt 011 ~Urt.h ~ 1981,1101 be piiii-QCql{ U krc11t pt\Wtded_,.. ,.ct ~ proridre rDt that; tkat t.111e GnScr eo rcMme tlilc debate be a.lted at IOo'doci 111 tile lOt~ 0111 ,..,., •at. 111 dut time,. the Lnder of the Ooi.'UMIC:nt .. ck ScnttG be IIVte an ~unity to propo&e to tile Sc.MtCI a mutton in the wordinc adopcod by tbe other plac:c on the ph!YJI)III ... ,

Apln. 11 rdc~nee to the. other pl.aoe and tbdr PfOOCdure: We will t hen proc~cd lO have the Leadct or I ll~ O I)PQlii· tklfl J»OJ)(')$e any amendment$ in on omnlb~o~11 rl)ml. Tbooe amendn,enl& may be ddHted at tbe llftntc tlnle but wltb· out further tllnendmelll.

Wbnoc b th" <.~bjection rrom the Lcadet or th~ ~ition at th•t time? Whei"C it the objectioo front the ocller mcmb.!r.c C>f the eppo~iuon .1t tb~t time? If we are to ply 10 much. aUcfltJOO-

Sd.tM f1yn: from wb; .. pqc: arc )'UU rodlJtc;" StNt« u .• Rea::n: 1 an. roc~,aa rrom pace 22U. ~uter Fl) aa: Poor B"Y·

S..ator , .. R~: 1t il the wbolc of the cAplal\at ioo of thv order; the •·hole dw::uu ioo in tb~ ehamber-

Sr•atOf F1J"•: Pitiful. &~l(lt n1• R"'Jlcl'n: -~~~·as on a 5JICCinl order, lmpMmg

~J>ol:ia l relittlc:tion;J~ l)ll us, much •uon: tban ju1t t ho lhnit111ioo

ol ckbak. so thlt - wo.)d hi"C the 9'0lC 011. &iYn~ day. l.nd so that Wl' wouJd oome ai close •• pos~blc to LM procedure 1.n the other place. I w1u he.re that da)' and I wu cetltillly kh •·itb the ltUP~'•Iun that t/t.al WAS t.hC objeccjve ._11 were sccki11g.

S<o~ta l c'lt' A$plh•: You fl rt h~ppy with that?

& rtator Y•n Ro!RI"m Wltt~.ther Jam happy or 1)()1. tile lcalkr of my 1xu1y. the lcad~t uf )'OOt p~u1y. ;~nd the leader or the New Oe~atk Pnrcy Ill the other plate. ttrived a t 1n exeept.or.;a/ deal betwCCil them

Stuto.r A.!l!eli~~: 8ut we arc not in the-«M:r pbce.

Stu«w •u Rowrtc h does ..- bind u. but 11 1IU • dal m* by tile three patty lcHcn-ooc by tk 111ouse b4cn. We dloWd tftop U..t .. ftlilld.

Sf.uu• .,,,._. 11tc HOilOIIrabte Scnuor ~ Roum hat quoted sdeded puU or th4 deba&c ()fl W1 cbte. I le 5bouN have read ~~~·Ut I uld followin.s tb:aL I said:

I confirm tha t the lnccnhOtl or the govcmmcnt d ta have an ageemenl he1e chat will tcOtct the agmeml:llt made In the Houat or Con1mot111, but I :11~ wish to tonf i tm t hul "-'t l1ave n()l nc:oe&llft rily asn:ed to what is btl11g PIVPoted in this mocion tnd t h11 v.·e rc.servc our right IQ 1;0nle5t the propo~~:tl. at la~tln l)rindplc, If not in practice.

Latet. on page 2282. I aid: Thil ha'lina bc&':tl t~ld. with tile propouJ du.ly eotrcctcd

aad ~a.ccd on tbe Otdtr r-per tomorrow. bonol.lr•tlfc ttu.t.on wdJ be able to NH.1f aactly wbt it proposed. tbe ~ ol llilc JO"'mmi'MIII, ud, Wllb the resemll­Ut:ll •"t; laaw 10111k. tk po.i.~JG~t ot tlrte ow;:asitioa.

"f'bttc wu no~ Vo. say tba1 ~did not bnoe ••)' IC$Ul'llioru.. btlt •<c dill ha"C rntn•atians. I did not wa11t to stan the &bate and anta;,onltJt the dr:put)' leader. We -.,;ere at that time conM~Jtilll on the proposed text. aod wt ma.de &a'UIII obsen•atiool.

• ~1})0')

I may &ay tl•11t there were 11eversl tbt~ngct; oade to the tru~l in tbt course "' ouf diiOuf.iliooi, There were three or fl)ur p~ul$. T ile lll-11 onc WJU not exaciJy lhe same:.$ the fir1t. but the i nttntl~. u f•r at we a1.e concemed, w;u vuy cleat: tb11 we wrrc n« bou.nd by •lull wu done io tbe otbtr p/;to: SKQnd(y, the ida of u omnibuJ ame:odmt:n.t wu never mcoc:io~M:d. and •.u ..,u acttpt«l rr JOU. Sen:ator .,._ ROf,tt4. •"M 1o fonow lk lute ol the IO"'CRIDMl. Wtlh t.he obJICCI o1 impowq elol••• • us.. 1 tlaiat il is s~r~amer.t

s,..,., •u R.,_: You ur lite -ord .. cmn.bu- •u ~ meatioftecl. lt w.u nw.ndo.od ri8)1t !ltre in tbiS hoviiC

Se•ator Fly•• : In lbc eMber pb~, b11t noc bete.

Se••tOJ' '1111 Roaf!n: RIJhl here in thil house. & ... tu.- l'ly•u•: Ye&. but flbol.ll whlll wu done in the othu

p!;•oc. Where do )OU tlnd n in t he tu t'! I Sl!id !h~t we had tCSCI'\'fltiOI\$,

lJJ6 SENATE DEllA TES April U. lfll

Sc1uttw ••• R~ I -o.kl be ftr)' lfltetuttd 10 llnn~:~g (tom ScoatOf Frith if tM: ebnscc wtl.c• ye. nqohalcd with blm •ubu:quent to Aprif I~

$c!•~tfor Fly11.n: Why do you w:ant to lmpoet elocure on us? \Vhy1 What ate you.r moti 'fCS? Why do )'00 want tbal?

' l'tl~ t-lo ... t.he s~.d;~ Order, pleaflt. Senalor Grosart asked to spc:lk befor~ ~tlator Oy11•: Why! Why do )'011 •·ant tO pre"<ent liS

rrom-Sr• ator C 111iart: Honol!rabk »etlttor., h tcc:mt to me most

tml*&a•t that we resoh-e thifl mtttu Some ti;IQ61ioM ba\'e

~ rNde. I do 110( thiet tb.at dwy are Jll&ltf.1..0CU that woutd e&w;e ••ybodJ to be face on dthcf ack Th• ilu beea p., 01 for a wry ioGJ tirlle. a.od l f«< co.tlckat , .. , •c c::u rcat11 • CIOfKhnioft.

~t.or ''lln Rocac.a took 011e: tide, but ct1d -. mc:l'ltioo. or counc, one -.,.F«t or it. ...-hiell is tll:lt wt atr ckabn8 whb: modorv from both .s.1Cies, so tb.1t to •«ry abo111 whether .omethlr~g wu in tbe plu.ral or t i.ngular doe. not matter very much, bcl:oue the principk that .,. .• h~v~ ~" dctx.lin& 11PI)11cs equally to the. g<)w mmentomcnctmenu ..

Juu to clarify. coulcl I ask tbc Leado.r or the Oovc:rnmcm o.r the Ocpuly Lead« or tbe Go~"Crnn,~n t, wbut objce tiun there would bc-auumtug, that we would have •·b111 tare calted omnlbu.t: amr!Mimenl$ on both side.J-40 cakln1 a \'Ote J.tridllm on lbe oompooctlt motions! My u.ndet"6tandl~ b. t hat thnt is aU we. Oft thlt side., a~ked tor. Then tbc P"'fl'OIC: or matdtiQ& •hat hat h,.ppmect ia tbc <JCbct pbec could ;tiU be ac:lht\'Cd. .. ,,_

Wbu oftjcctbl ..:.uJd tkft be eo eccomc.o.:b.lillJ the: l.olkr of the Opp:;llitioa •lllm ~hue is u "m.kbtd .._....,. llatldtq u to •flat wu d«kkd!! I &U; apln., •hat otlt«tJOO caa thc:te be eo a«:cpcin,g this ~Jicttion., thltll the: omnibu$ lmC~I'MniS come before U$., a vote b c.Ued 011 cacll ooe. withoul dc.btate «any m-ttkdon:t1 I wwht be 1\illy in f11vwr ol tbut. and I btlic1~ t.he Lt l&dcr or t h.e ()ppoNtion would abo bo. We woul-d ju,t , otc on thenl, u t he Lndcr or th e Oppc~~~l · don h.ttJ Mid, with no bclb or dh·l ~i.ont, \Vc W<IU1d VO'Ie (Jn C~~ch u•wl rcsoh•e tht whole probkm. Why not 't St~1atc:w l,emmJt: Honou.rablc st.natOti.. tbnt IIUg.g.tuion is

totelly oootra.ry to tbe Otdt t which wa11 po.J.lled by a majority, on dlvitiOfl. tbe otbe: day io thiJ chamber Tbco bollt the IO"ttCimC111 •Dd tbe oppo:sitiM 5:pote '" ltftN olan OIMibuJ Plcb.J.c ol mel$lliU..

H-. Jtkbn1 A. DoMJMot: Not I• Uc order. you cUd•\.

Sn.t~i" Pnfallk: let lOt COI'Itltlue. The fOfOIII (Of iOmc of tbc p!IUiemtat. ~ps.. ia paru o( thlll clulnbu, is 0.. When I sp:llr on Apn1 JS OA thif mancr, I Mtd

Alter siA montlts of debate a.nd d!K"Wol& in eonunluc~. in tll .. chambct, 11.nd in the 04bcr pla(c., it a, obYi<IU, th:.-t a Jll'tllllrtWil'lt:i ry CONensus has been deYCiopcd to m~~kc p~ls~n for tlle Ofdctly d ispcuiltloo o( tho r~olutiod oo the CoMtitutiol\ and, perhflp1, tht Con.\th ut.lon if.'luc lttclf,

llio- JbMJ

But no. lilt_.n to thee ~of tk lader ol tile (}ppo.itiOit

l.i$tcn to •Ut he Mid, u reported at paJe 2J06 Q( Ha~Vtml:

We a.re deallnJ befe •ith qu.ite an e.xccpcional and llntllu~ al altwuion, one which will D04 t CC\U very oft~n., Ill lc:~111 I hope not,

Then he went on to liLy :

The ~trll Jti iiCitlCIII rcatl•cd In the. Conum)!UI huct cbaO&od our pcnf)C(tivc. No•· it h.as been sugge&tcd t(l Ull in lb.c 011\tt plaoc, U 'I''C IU.\IIlly ca!J it, that IIJVC\' 10~11 thollld 11pply to us •• on.ll. , •• Out I must 1u;fmj1 1 h111 cbc Lc:ackr of ~idon i.n the Howe told me tbat we thou1d Jmplieatly comply w1.th lht coodrtio.u ~ to ill the Olltct" pb.cc CO li!llf)OK o( lbts raol• tion.

Tlaltcaict Of~ I m-.t •1 n~t a·~y lbt - 01 ' '• MCk of

tile Houe hid not pvc:n aay ma.ndatc to 0..1 effect Legal!) •e do 11101 I:O.idtr tll:at wt ate tO bound, but perh;tp. 10 • ce:waln utc-.nt we to!W&:r tb;tt 'WC .re morally bound

& 1d tCW lil>••u•: Not to the onu11bus prQ901als. Coo.e on!

St.na tor Ptlrravlt: Plca.e, wit.h your u.sual PQticnce. hear rne out. $e~~J~IOt •111111: No, I will not listen.

se. a tor f>l'nallllt licre we bad • Lc:ader d tbc Op]!IOIIII(lfl, who il~pted U'lt (act, a(tt::r bcutgeonlaettd by IT)lf~I.II I!Yet

of )lj, patty, thtt thb ••• an uBUS~~al $itu.ation. a.nd u,.,oer •flOG the COII5UVItiV"CI member~ d this Scaate tbe pn~c ~. t~td i• tile eo...o.w t.Od:ay, sad Wt is lo.. '*" p111y 10 ..tvi.IIOC IU lii...,...a:l anxiiCI..-nts iA Oftl•lblb r..wo.

witlt tbe ~~oust kacfc:tMip. ~~ ud ~~- mcwl., th.e aaxndiiW•h. fie con«ded in t•is lt!.~t. ••id~ I bve quoted. thu i• new of a IINJliiJKIU$ aJi·PiU1Y I.&J'CCf'MitC aebic:vcd In the ochcr place hil pe:rspc~:cive bad cma~cd. Wlti:n is th:Al chanacd Pf"ptct.lve today'?

StllliiiOt Flpw: Qu01c the poratlliPh bcrore thnt,

Seaflhl r J•twwll: l•lonourabk SICI\ators., I invite any honour. al.l-le .scnauw to rcwd Sun1110<r 1:1ynn'' tJi t i re:~pco:c.h.

& • 11tor Fl)'n•: Quote the plltatraph before tbat.

& .. t ~.W r .-rru h : 'rhere l• no .SU.Ubt about the tpirit and intent o( tbe agrotrnent •lti~:.h we achiC\·cd. and 100..y, CJboA. ous.ly, certain membcn of tbe opposi.OO. are tl')'inc to uftkd tlrat accord. wlurot~ thc:n motJ\'d may be.

Stuc, Fl,J-u: I •••• to cpote from paae lJ06 a ,._a.e tbia.t tht l.adtr of t.bc Ocwttamtat did 110t q110tc.

We •arocct tt.t 1.-o thra.cs had to be :aveecf to. F.nt, tbat the Sdlt,te would * come to a dccisi«l bc(ore tile Hwse o1 C.O.runont~ ltoilfld. tbt dtua ti.Ol'l of tbe &~t~~le deb;lle al'ter th" Commons det:uJt.m. On tbilt po:!a"t, • c: b.ad com~ 10 wmc DJic~:.mcnl which Wil$ not f'inllhled botH whkh •'aaacoeptcd by both sidC$.

Th~1 WU.J the CfiiCII" of Our undcr$tnntfing,, :11\d l'll!fll n 11111)' 11t.a11he word "onu1lbut" .,. .. , n~wer \!sed.

Aptd 2J, 1981 SENATE DEBATES

& 11J1l0f ~an k &Q elll lt ll.'at \Uicd in tbe ot/ICI l>l~ c:t.

S(tuuor fl.rl••: h was not lilscd In the other pb~ citb«. S...tor ••• Roac-a: NOl l• tile onkr, bulln dcf:ll;w:. Sn..rer fl)-..: SiMC wi»ct, do )'OU dlaqe tk rule$ '1rithcMII

mc:ndofling lt? I u t you •1~nn: Why do )'011 object to the dccli:ICin of tbe Scntue. being rn.!ld~ In 110 orderly fuhlon and q11lckJy on ea<:h and cvc.ry amtnd~nt that • -c •.unt to pro­~? Wby. 1r 11 b .ot lot panilatt 1n0tl:\'U. ud .un,ly 10 aYOW tmhlrrusmcflt to the powuOIIWnt! Sbanad

St•liltOt ... Moa:.t<..: We tboll ld &y w1th the agreement thlll •·ns made. Th~t t is my point, St1PilJf Fly••: Very weiJ, ! add: eo my llllccments, and tbe

IIIJUII\ellt it u I IY.ve de;ettbtd h HCMt. Pa .. ~..«Mr. I hopt t1K arneftle!mmt.larc as implrtant a1thlt ar8:11-ment. We ha''C been 111 this fw two hours, artd b1ve

JtOt uQCompli.shod f• thi.na )'et, r •'OUld like to ask 11 QIJC$ll0f'l I hat I hope Setuuor Flyna or S.nator GrotaJt eAn anS\Net fOt uw. £~ny time ~ vote you miUl assume: tbat )'CIU 1111.,.. a et. ace o( wiruli., •t. or 1'0'1 WOIIid 004 be p~ltii.J ameodmef!U forward. Whu lr 011e of them •• diffcrt1lt rrorn •·bat hat b«ft pulled in the Hou•t. and 1hey haWl adjQurncd? Whet.:: do wt go from there?

,S,utw Flya.: Oo ye. MQCI-1 tlullhc Scutc slloould DC'¥'Ct UJ anytbiq dilfen:nt frl* -~~ tlile H01111e ~ ComlnOti • Ai)'lflll l( SO.,thc:n marbe you don't bc:lon& beN.

S.nalor Ladt-rl Whethe-r J bcloo8 lt.cre Ol' not is not tectlly your eholoe. Wbut J atn sus;ge1tint it tbit t you aniwcJ a simple qoullon. If an ~tnwndrnc:nt Coet tllrwab he.re tlut ill dtfl'ucnt from the «*S ,..at tJ, tat H~ •!tat lllafiPIM t-.ea? h h a $impk q~ioct 1 6() not bow how that bat a•ythir:ts 1o do ••hh how I got bere or wbetht.l I ~hould be bcre or nQIL

'r11t l·loll. the Spt"llker: Sell81<1r Orou,rt Stul(lf GrnMrt The qoestiocl w01.1 addrcMCd to me. nd I

dtiot tb«c is a Mntpk &Mwcr. TK U&wtt h. • Ut wouW blpp:~~ if the vote hue on the om.nibtes b1ll _.., dilfe~t eo what 11 ..,·~s in the ochc:r place. The q:lle~ti<lfl, r think, '' irrdeYanL We C~•n 11/1 uDdtNiand that the IO~'n"ment luu tl majority bert. 1'hc ptrrtmcnt, no matteT wh.u the vote 1n1ah1 lie. ca.n brina ill a lftOhon to put. an uwlld••l exactly tk satM u thl.t i• tM floneol ec.mo.s at tK tuul $l.lae. • H)41t

I repeat my quc11tion to tbll Lclld c::r or tb~ OM<crnmc.nt, •hich be bas 1'101 aM..-ered. What harm would be dooc if ,.e jltM .,lt t.h:is at we wouid u omnibus bill? W• llaft bd nuny OrnWIIM bilb llcre. and., •ltcll ""'« !0 iniO OOII'Imdtec of tlte • ·hole we can MO\'e atn atnet~drncnt to ooc c.hu~se ift a bill, Surely that ill more OOI1~uve thlln a trOnJ) of motiofiB J)llt totetll('r fOJ 11111 exceptio!\.011 J"'lpollt. I avec whb .:very•.hinl that has btta tald to tbe df«l that lhiJ ia an exceptional sit•cioft. but I -c~~~ld litt- eo MgU~tlilat. at tilt• poiM.. •lltat wu ioatd Cilrlief dots not rally •natter now. The impwtant thlnJ, it accma to me, is tbe r(l()()8rttt ioo tbot 1hcre h11.s been ft miJunckNt!ndina. I do not bell~ that then:. wns a del i~r1to

attempt on either aide to •nide;1d, dcttivc or n·u..sunde;rstand. However, we IUC talkina tlbc1ut an IJJ'C'Cment amo"'~' .soeoa· tOrj, BCttdttncfl and bd.a., and thc:te !ut been a m.istUI der • .t.tandtai- A tfm9k SCJiutiotrl is olftrtd I ril repeat fAT .. JP tion 10 tk Leada ol the OoYerBmC:nt, tb!t he a4joura tbc Senate at this mOment and ste 1r the rour very rcuon.able pc;ople hc:rc can reach 1 dcci~::lon. I believe thot 11 d«:ision could be ro~~o:bcd ill lbe conidqn or c.lwwb~?Te in b1lf •n h<lur. Alter all. h ia leltin'w.

H-. SI••C'J L B.cb oW: f-IOIMIIIIftble knatol'l, this ha,: been pna on for ao•ne urne. AJ • bacl:bencbc.r. I liii J)po.'SC J ~pe.1k (or nil of U$ In eltprcssing tbu hope that we t tln resQI'I'C what otwlou.sJy i$ $tOOK co~tfu-.uoo or mljutlde:rsuandi.nl on an cwdtf ol 1hd bc:Mst:. Eatl'" • tk Pf'OOI"'!dmp we .,ted tor • r.U, f10111 the ~... 1 bdkw Hn: tlo.ou:r wu oe. •• rcet. ready to &i~ I bat n~1 Lit£. Ptthllf.l' tbll t •'<KIId be tbc ~ution at thl$: dme. Hil HoiiOUr WJU Mkcd to rule m• whether rn (act this ,..A, n le,ltlmate ocdcr or the bouae, and. if so. to tule on it, I am wo*'ttina wb«Mr tlul could be tt.C' DCl.t seep. JO that WC! a.. Id 011 witllt Uc lnOI'C ·~ put ol this dd:llat.c:.

TIM Ho~t. l•t- $pt-llllf'r: If you •·ill allow me. honcMJrable SoeMtOtll, 1f cvtr you rtcJulre me to outl:t a deci~iqn , unlua you convince n1c that I am wrona.the only thin.& I can dedc!t <~n is the order u I re;ad 1t hue. Uofort.w~cdy. I c:aAIIICII rder to tki• •h!U arc no1: tcl'kctcd in ••k ~tl u., · ·t.a.t happe!Xd ~..-cen th• Lc•der or tM Oppos~l.on artd tbc LeadCI ol the (ib\"ermnenl, "''bat h.Jipt~Cncd in tbe ochcr place. tbe ponlbl• wtoome of 11 d~bste W the efl'tct tb;u. "Well, ti•Jt ill wl'lat VIe had ill mind," or e~en-alld I rcsrct tbiJ, Setutor Rol:ttiJt-ck c.raJtUN~tiCIII enor. •Well if • litck men JCnOIU tlwt it (li'it lppe;trs. If I come to a decision. I will opiai11 u.actly wh.at I u.ndenund to be in thil ordl!t'.

Oo we tl$.fCo:.. h"nour~blc 9Cn.'ltOI'.t, t hat I bave 10 d(cidc on the nw::anlng o( the order Ill it appcen here, and not on ttlr. bo.sis vldclc.uioot tllta~ t.oot place bctwce:rt tile reptCKGUlnQ qf tk poltttcal parua •IHI •lw lltapptocd in lhe Other place? If you al.k me to do tbll l, I •·ill tell you 10 find .somebody c!se. 1 e:~nnot m11ke a judgment on that bll•i•. beC'i&ut;e I am not A\lo'are ()( the (t&Cil. The only thing I koow (or oerlaiJI lt what is writt~• lw!'f. I Qll read lt atld I can t.cll you w bt I •llllcntttld (Jam 11. Tkrcfotc.. I ..... ,to illdiclte" k» J011 IIWII 11)' ddla~c 0111tsick tb» order, thouah il mlg.ht be a "Cry illtc::rtl.1ill$ debate. is ooe that I un_foJtunacely C;!r.mot t~l:e ifllo uceoun1 in 01y det:i$Mt

(TN.ut.IIOII) S«.t..- A.»dia: Mr. Spea.ta-. bdcn JC* ruk I t.inlt: !hat our rcpreliCntat~cs both on the pe:nunen' <~nd on oppos:it11011

side oustu to mal:e nn e1Yor1. Wh1t1cver dec:iakld• t he Chair may l.ak• . I h<1ve the impre\lion ol' coune tlwt u~~e tide of the bou;sc will 1101. bt talitf,cd and that the c&cbi:tte wiU ,,._ ~Mre KrimoaiOta. I (eclth.l the wholt t.b.q wit eod up iA the air,

I call 11 rot! l he t.CDCroil I y of OCIJ leldtrli 00 both t ide. ortbt: hou . .se. A~ it hu botn , uBStsted by other honourable JltniiiQtl, let tbt Jn m~ct (qr t1 (cw m<tf'!\oents •hlle w·c oot~tlflu• the ckbate

2JJ8 SENATE DI!8A'ri;:S April 23. I ~8 1

httt, then they CAn oomc ba<:k with a .solutlm1. lr the y c."lnnot a,grec t hen we will ask tbc. C J.ait to m:1kc Jt rulins .

But before. we :uk 1\ l r. Sputcr to tul<:, I think an effort should be m:u!c in tbat d irection. S il)ce Senator l.unaJois poimod out that I was not beN! la$1 week. I admit it is ltue. but I t hink I am seldom 11bscnt from the Senate. I can put my ll tlCtld :!n~ record liP <11311 inst an)~ne dse'11 here. One thins for 3urc ls th11.t if tbe Leackt of tbe GC'Wecnmcnt an<! his deputy were to me« y.•ith tl•t· L&dc.r Q( tbe Opposit ion aM his deputy chances to ~eh nn ~t~..grec::ment would be better. IEnglisiiJ ~t.ator Frith: Honourublc 9CIUIIOfs. the Issue doeJ not

rt lllly require 3 ruling until a o'otlon in arrn.:ndmcnt i$ pro· posed. The qucstiotl then is whether it is in order. I nt.<~ke thiil .s:ugg~t.lon. The mc~tnins or I he order '1\'ill luvt 10 be inlerprel· «i when Senator F1ynn prop06et a molioo th1u i$ tboug.ht 10 be oul of order bCCSu$t it i:~ cc.mtrury 10 lhe provWons <Jot the order, and lh ;~t will noc bappeo until tomorrow. In t he me;m. t.ime, we will bave an oppottuohy to :~cc if we ~~~ work something out. I think: "'e h~ ''C debated thi$ mauer thotougb· lr, each sen.at(lc 1-.a$ n id virtually ev«ytbing that he w;mted 10 ""'Y about il.

Sk• ator Robll•: And more.! Scru.tl)r l"ri th: PerbajM a litde more. a nd I ~:usgc:.u thul •-e

leave il at that. We vd!l have-two oppo-rtunities 10 talk in I he meantime. Let ut get on with it and eroS$ t hat bridge whetl we come to h. We can hope. in the mc!Ultime, tJ•at we. mny be ~bole to find a ••ay a1ound tlte difliculty.

&nator f1y1u1~ I think thllt is an ex"lfenlsuggestioo, :met it will give-. Ni~ Honour time to prepare a rllling. if one mus1 be. made.

Tht Ho.•. ~~~ S pe:.ker: Do •'C aU agree on this'! Do you ri5e on a point or o•·dtf, Sc-n.:'!t(lc vnn R()ggen?

&nator Yall Rot~B: I ;un nol continuing dte defxllte v<ilh our honou~blc friet~ds opposite. I only wisl• cl3rific:ui()n on t he remarks His Honour h:u rnadt:. I wh<>'ly t~upport tihe \'iew His Honour hs s ellpre!acd-

Sct~lllflr A.~ti_n.: Do you challenge Hit 1-Jooour':~ ruling in ~d\'all<.:e?

& auu or '-a" RoJigca: Ju.s1 let me speak: I will Orlly be 3 moment. I understood His Hooour to ~Y t h<1t he c:o~,~:ld only deal witb what was -..'ritt~JI here in our prooecdin_g,s.. I wanted to be de3r in my mind t.hat. by that stateme1lt. Hi:s Houour me:mt not (lnly the order itself bul sls:o tire St4tM•enu m.1dc publicl)' in Ibis chambcl'. :ts reported in llatt.tttrd, immcdiatel)' surrounding the arc!cr, which I think are relevant. I may lmve undcn~toocl from His Honour•s words tJ1at he thought be could only look at the order its::tlf. I •vutd simply like 10 put forward t he ''iew that, wl•lle he c:.1nnot oonsider what weJ•t on ir• pri ... ale between I be l..c<•der of t he Oppos.ition : ncl the l.~dcr of I be GovCIInmenl, or between tl1e deputy leaders, or ag.reoements made in the <>ther place, il is p1oper for him to OOO!Ikkr the order i1.$Cif ;md the debate relative to that order which took. place in thi$ ehamb«. ~!b ..... ,~~. ..... 1

St-11ator Grosart: I rise on a poinl of mdef. l·l tt Hooour bas alt eady dearly rul-ed. if I heard him correctly, th••t be will only deal whh tl1e arder as il $tands. h is. improper for any senator to di.~CIISS the decision made by His Honour.

Th~ Hcut, tlte S peakt-.r. In mder IQ chari(y my I bin king,, I will say that if there- it; n.n 38f~Cnl made among all n'te-tnbe-1"$ of tbe hou.sc as to tbe interpretation ol tboc mder, t l1en, 1>r ootn,;e., I have to take that Into aooount-. If, howCI"I·~r. you ask me lllmply tQ refer I Q tlw deolxtte dealing with maucrs on whic.h there was no agreement, C\'en if th~e . .,..•ere some ,datcmen~ made In the. hou.te, thi'Ue st<ltcmwl$ do noe ncoessarily modiry 11ny decf.s:ion of mine. An agrcc:ment oould modify it. rr ytltl

can .show me that. fOI e,\ample. pa.rsgraph J w:u intt:rpreted by cvet)'body h1 tlte h<.lu$1! 11t1 m~;1niog 01 'c.rtain thing, I will tukc l h<~ t into ac;,ount. Howe'I'Cr, I cannot go fua•lber .

NATIONAl. D£FENC£ Ct.OSIJIUi Of' DBW U Nf .SIT6S-LOCA n ONS

Que3tlon No. 48 l)n tbe Order l>apet-8)' HoB. J atk M•r~•un:

List tbe location of the 21 DEW l..inc SitC$ in O...nada which the U.S. O<Wernmcnl pJQJ)OSCS to close, as was I"QCently announoocd in tbcir go'lo'CI'nlnt.nt policy pa,)tlr.

R~ply by rh~ Mlnlmr ()j NU/i(ma/ fk/trllCt:

The gO\·ernmcnt policy pnJX:t referrod to in the qucs1ion was a mili tary posture statc.tl\etlt s.ubmiued to dre U.S. Congre!l$ during the formc.r Carter Admini.s-lf\ttic.m, 3nd it recommended th<~t t he DEW Une be reduood from 31 sites {21 of whidl are located in Cai\J'Ida) 10 13 sit~.

However. no spedfte rlldar loc.1dl)nS •·ere idcntificcl for d~urt.

The question of DEW Line site cf.Q$um w:u also :1ired during daily questi-on petkld in the Hot1-$1Cl of CQ1mnons oo 2 ~br<:b, 198 1 :md i$ conlained in 1/ant-ard of thal date PQ&es 7769-70.

e lUSt)

NA'J.'lONAL l' INAJ\CE RI!I'ERRAI. OF APPROPR.IA TJON l'llt..t..S TOCOMMtTIEG-PO/r-tt<)l'

ORDER l•h~e~. Oouglii.$ 0 . Evtrdt: Honourab-le senators, I apologi:~.e

for ta.kins up 1be time of the Senate on s point ol ordet. bul $iOCe we are recessing I would like 10 de:l.l with it bricny.

Tire oontcmll or IJ ill C·S9, the Oorrowiog Authority Dill, were rererred by tbe Senate to the Standing Senate Cmn•nittcc on National Finan.ce on Mllreh 12. 1"he C(.lmmiuce had a l•earin81)n M lltc.h 19 M d reponed baclt to the Senate. The bill t hen '-'lime to the Senate on /\pri.l 7 and was discussod in th..: chamber on I hat day :tnd oo April 8. The cli~eu$sio~ in\·l)}ved Se1l.'Uoro~ Gn1sart, Roblin u!M.I frilb. The. question aro-1e as to whclber or not the billsbouJd t hen be t<:fetr.cd to the omrnn it• tee when, in fact. the .content had been rcfcno:l.