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14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56096)by alwayson » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:48 am

I hate the Pali Canon because it is not the original recession of the Mahāsāṃghikas

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56097)by deepbluehum » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:52 am

You have to be a little lenient with the rime students. This is how they hear Dzogchen, with aMahamudra twist. You should couch your comments with a caveat that this is how your schoolor your teacher or your understands Dzogchen, because other folks' teachers may havepresented it the way Andrew did.

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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56098)by Andrew108 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:28 am

Namdrol wrote:

Many people make this mistake. Such people never understand Dzogchen.

Andrew108 wrote:A genuine experience of emptiness and a genuine experience of rigpaare the same ‐ this experience is glimpsed during direct transmissionfrom teacher to student.

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The point is that Rigpa has no continuity or time within it. It is not the case that intrinsicawareness is held from moment to moment. There is no time for intrinsic awareness. Beliefin a continuity is deluded. In Mahamudra there is no time. In Dzogchen there is no time.Intrinsic awareness is often called 4th time or beyond time because it is emptiness, empty ofcontinuity. Any awareness that is related to a continuing present is not genuine rigpa. If youhave the conditions then you 'get this' during transmission. The solidity of dualistic vision fallsaway ‐ even only briefly. I base my understanding on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje. IF I am not a dzogchen practitioner because of holding this view then that's fine by me. I'mhappy about that.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56101)by Sönam » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:35 am

In my opinion (humble of course) speaking about bhumis is the most incertain case, the mostunknown subject in buddhism. No one (or nearly) as a clue of what is bhumis, what state itrepresents ... you can navigate all your present life in believing that you will never reachbhumis, that you attained first bhumi or even sometime that you attained 8th bhumi. Sofunny, and of course in a discussion every one will admit that bhumis are for high levelbodhisattvas ... and that it's for no one of us.

How one will be freed in this life if one is thinking in this way ...

Sönam


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56111)by Malcolm » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:28 pm

This is a trivial point and does not go beyond Madhyamaka.

N


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56113)by Andrew108 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:02 pm

Andrew108 wrote:The point is that Rigpa has no continuity or time within it..















This is far from being a trivial point. But as others have said it is better to check these thingswith a teacher.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56115)by Sönam » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:17 pm

It is not up to him to say so, but Loppon Malcolm Smith Kunga Namdrol is a teacher ! ...http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/User:Namdrol(http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/User:Namdrol)

SÖnam



It is a trivial point because time is merely a convention. There is no time or continuity at all,other than conventionally. In Dzogchen, that which is shared with Madhyamaka can beconsidered trivial since we are not discussing something unique and specific to Dzogchenteachings.

Also the term "intrinsic awareness" is a translation misnomer that has, unfortunately, gainedbroad currency. Using the term "intrinsic awareness" for "rig pa/vidyā" is very limiting. Firstof all, the adjective "intrinsic is misapplied. Intrinsic describes a quality that something elsepossesses. For example, diamonds are intrinsically hard; gold is intrinsically shiny; water isintrinsically wet. [X] is intrinsically aware? The intrinsic awareness of what? Of what isawareness an intrinsic quality?

There are other problems to this translation which lead people to reify rigpa as some trulyexisting ground ala Advaita's brahman.

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Andrew108 wrote:This is far from being a trivial point. But as others have said it is better tocheck these things with a teacher.

Andrew108 wrote:This is far from being a trivial point. But as others have said it is better tocheck these things with a teacher.





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It's hardly trivial since conventions are what dualism is made of and getting stuck inconventions isn't going to get you out of dualistic view. Getting used to the state that is non‐dual ‐ going beyond conventions is what realization is about and so you get introduced to that‐ gain confidence in it ‐ don't get shocked by it. You seem to have suggested that recognition of rigpa and realizing emptiness are different. Iwould suggest that recognition of non‐duality ‐ of going beyond conventions ‐ is what rigpaand emptiness are ‐ they are realized as a unity. What would rigpa/emptiness look like? I'm not a teacher but here is what my teacher has said:

''There is nothing to look at and no one looking, Nevertheless there is an appearance of someone looking— This person looking is self‐arisen and self‐liberated. When you know this, you know the profound point.''KTGR

One has an understanding of the absence of identifiable phenomena but at the same timeone has the appearance of awareness. Awareness that is self‐arisen and self‐liberated ‐therefor not conditioned by dualism. This view is non other than the view of Dzogchen Semdethis is also what ChNN calls instant presence. But these are just words that I thought I would right down as respect for your contributionshere. But really it's all quite academic and I don't mind the idea that I may be wrong.



Yes, they are quite different.

If not, then all people who have recognized rigpa would be first stage bodhisattvas. But theyare not.

Namdrol wrote:It is a trivial point because time is merely a convention. There is no time orcontinuity at all, other than conventionally.

Andrew108 wrote:You seem to have suggested that recognition of rigpa and realizing emptinessare different.











The second fault of your assertion above is that people who have not realized emptiness willbeleive that they had, and such people will than be incurable.

That is a useful personal quality.

N



"Instant presence" is one of the ways in which Norbu Rinpoche translates the term "rig pa", inorder to disinguish it from his translation of the term "dran pa", presence, which is usuallytranslated as mindfulness.



How do you know they are not? What I find difficult about your position (which seems quitetied to doctrine) is that it seems you are saying that a practitioner can be aware of their realnature in that they are not ignorant of the nature of the mind (recognize rigpa) but at thesame time not have a genuine understanding or perception of emptiness (experience ofemptiness). I find this quite funny to be honest. That a practitioner can go beyond dualisticview (recognize rigpa) and yet still see people as inherently existent (no direct perception ofemptiness). Wouldn't this be a strange situation?


I don't mind the idea that I may be wrong.

Andrew108 wrote:this is also what ChNN calls instant presence.

Namdrol wrote:If not, then all people who have recognized rigpa would be first stagebodhisattvas. But they are not.













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I have personal experience of the subject we are discussing and I am not a first stagebodhisattva. In other words, I am relying on my personal authority to answer your question.

N


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56136)by Sönam » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:01 pm

THese are interesting about ... the whole is to be foundhttp://www.khandro.net/doctrine_higher_teachings.htm(http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_higher_teachings.htm)

Andrew108 wrote:

How do you know they are not?

Namdrol wrote:If not, then all people who have recognized rigpa would be first stagebodhisattvas. But they are not.

Rigpa in Dzogchen and Mahamudra are not the same thing. The former refers toa wisdom; the latter refers to the reflexive clarity of the mind, whichdiscovering its own Emptiness, rests in it. This latter meaning is similar to gsalrig, "clear awareness" at term from the Sakyapa Lam 'bras [pron. lam dre]system....The equivalent term in Mahamudra teachings for Dzogchen's rigpa issahajaj~naana, meaning "innate wisdom." In Tibetan, this is called lhan cig skyeye.she ....How is this so? The late Bokar Rinpoche, in the insight section of his shortMahamudra text, outlines three stages of Mahamudra as "seeing reality as thenature of the mind, severing the basis and the root, the introduction havingdetermined awareness to be empty."

This last phase consists of two steps: First one determines that awareness isempty, then introductions are made through movement, and so forth [ie.examination / analysis]. He says, "First, let the mind relax in its own state.








http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_higher_teachings.htm



Sönam


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56142)by username » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:17 pm

Andrew108, you say experienceof rigpa and mere emptiness are identical and when Ncorrects you, your friend accuses him of being anti‐rime! This is becoming surreal. Thebiggest pitfall of Dzogchenpas is mistaking the mere emptiness aspect for rigpa. This is thesame in Mahamudra where it is defined as emptiness non‐dual with clarity since thebeiginning in all manifestations. Then you quote Tsultrim too of all people! Couldn't get abigger fan of clarity than him within emptiness. You really do not know the doctrines andpositions or what you are talking about and are misrepresenting Dzogchen/Mahamudra for afew people who might not know better. You also mention ChNNR! Who often says "someteachers who are only interested in money tell thier poor students these days falsely thattheir little experience of emptiness is rigpa which is a great injustice". If that was true thencertain Cha'an/Zen followers as well as those poor beings frozen in clarity‐less emptiness foreons in the fabric of outer space would all be stabilized in rigpa, they are not. Your last pointis also irrelevant as many ordinary people, if not all, who are not on the path experiencerigpa from time to time shortly but do not realize it for what it was or even notice it as such.So again N was correct as according to your line of reasoning everyone should be a BhumiBodhisattva. Apart from the weird and hilarius contradictions mentioned, consistentlymisleading people on rigpa in ignorance is a serious downfall in Dzogchen/Mahamudra. It isbest to keep quiet if one is not qualified.


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56153)by alwayson » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:04 pm

So is my signature right?

Look nakedly at the relaxed mind. Maintain the stream of recollection withoutdistraction. Make no effort to accept or reject any concepts which may arise;rest alert and present in the clarity and emptiness in the moment of ordinarymind, free from grasping."

So there we understand that rigpa is just this clarity. According to Yangonpa's Richos, this ordinary mind ‐‐ tha mal gyis she pa ‐‐ is a yogi's name for non‐conceptual wisdom ‐‐ rnam.par mi.rtog.pa ye.shes.Further proof that in Mahamudra rigpa is a synonym for mind rather thanwisdom is given a little later, when Bokar Rinpoche goes on to say, "In the sameway, the trio of appearances, awareness and emptiness are the self‐perfectedunification of clarity and emptiness from the beginning . . . ." So rigpa hererefers to the second stage....













Username....Wow........I think you should read through my posts again.Rigpa as innate wisdom ‐ yes! What are the innate wisdoms? Kadag, lhundrub andinseperability of these two. I can't really be bothered to write much more but look up whatkadag is and see how kadag as a wisdom is central/inseperable with a GENUINE recognition ofRigpa.Andrew108 out.....


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?(#p56156)by username » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:13 pm

You digress and answered none of my points, so no point for me to continue either. If you feelso confident in your words, why not teach and maybe even write a book on your novel (atleast to me) ideas?

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Would you like me to go through your post point by point?


Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Andrew108 wrote:Username....Wow........I think you should read through my posts again.Rigpa as innate wisdom? What are the innate wisdoms? Kadag, lhundrub andinseperability of these two. I can't really be bothered to write much more butlook up what kadag is and see how kadag as a wisdom is central to a GENUINErecognition of Rigpa.Andrew108 out.....


















(#p56158)by username » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:15 pm

Do whatever you like.

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Andrew108 wrote:Would you like me to go through your post point by point?





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