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14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64347)by KevinSolway » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:49 pm

Please provide a quote where I claimed to be omniscient and omnipotent.

Since when does outright lying play a part in Buddhist debate? Did I miss that teaching?

I said "If I know reality and you don't . . ."

It was a conditional statement.

For all I know you could be pretending to be a fool. I can't know for certain how much youknow.

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64349)by Sherab Dorje » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:57 pm

I wouldn't know, I'm a non‐Buddhist, remember?

Take it away Fifi!

gregkavarnos wrote:Kevs' claims to omniscience and omnipotence . . .

if Kev says to me that he knows reality and I don't, well... It doesn'tleave much room for polite debate.

Since when does outright lying play a part in Buddhist debate? Did I miss thatteaching?

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64351)by zangskar » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:16 pm

i mostly liked your two videos on rebirth, Kevin Solway, though my conclusion is not just"don't believe any of these teachers, think for yourself", but also to remember to questionwhat you can actually infer from your own experience.

Also I wouldn't have argued with named teachers or traditions. It's not that I personally aminsulted, and you are not rude in the least in the videos I think. It just seems like it gets yourargument cloudy because the focus slips from the issues at hand to the large amalgam ofissues with Buddhist teachers and traditions that you so obviously (your expressions on yourface) disapprove of.

All in all, I think that the reason why people want to entertain beliefs about the reality or thenon‐reality of rebirth might be more enlightening to understand for most of us, than wouldknowledge of the actual reality of rebirth.

Best wishes








Lars



So I'm a person named "Dave" who claims to have a monopoly on truth, who claims to beominipotent and omniscient, who believes that all others are worthless, and to top it off, I'ma female, dancing dog as well!

I'm sure this is textbook debating tactics, but I'm not sure what the textbook is.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64356)by edearl » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:06 pm

I would like to know the reasons, and why people hold to beliefs with such fervor they will killothers who do not hold the same beliefs.



Did you miss the bit about me being a clown?

gregkavarnos wrote:Take it away Fifi!

zangskar wrote:All in all, I think that the reason why people want to entertain beliefs aboutthe reality or the non‐reality of rebirth might be more enlightening tounderstand for most of us, than would knowledge of the actual reality ofrebirth.















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Lighten up Ken, any minute now the soap bubble may burst.



Point taken. There are other videos on the same Youtube channel(http://www.youtube.com/MenoftheInfinite (http://www.youtube.com/MenoftheInfinite) ) thatdeal with similar issues in the manner you suggest.

Religion takes quite a serving on Youtube, and rightly so, but Buddhism hasn't received muchattention for the reason that relatively few Westerners know much about it. It helps torespond directly to certified teachers, with video evidence, otherwise it would be difficult toget the audience to believe that many Buddhists really do believe these things.

I would say that the reason people want to believe in literal rebirth is that they want theirconsciousness to continue relatively intact. They don't want to lose, or have dissipated, allthat they have accumulated. And, speaking for myself, the reason I don't believe in literalrebirth is that it would involve divorcing myself from reality, and imagining that my

zangskar wrote:I think that the reason why people want to entertain beliefs about the realityor the non‐reality of rebirth might be more enlightening to understand for mostof us, than would knowledge of the actual reality of rebirth.





http://www.youtube.com/MenoftheInfinite



consciousness was isolated from the rest of reality. I am far more comfortable with the truththat my consciousness is inseparably linked with the rest of reality.

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64360)by Malcolm » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:22 pm

For the Buddha, rebirth, punarbhāva, was a simple fact.

Either one accepts rebirth or one does not.

Arguing that the continual appropriation of new physical forms by an afflicted mentalcontinuum that spans countless eons is not the Buddha's teaching is rather unwise, since itclearly is the Buddha's teaching.

It is unwise, therefore, to pretend that there is some other option, or that the Buddha meantrebirth only figuratively.

Arguing with people who do not accept rebirth is equally unwise because they are addicted toa trenchant physcalism and prefer a secular understanding of mind and life. However, suchpeople, may, in a limited way, derive some benefit from Budda's teaching of dependentorigination and so on even if that teaching will not lead them to ultimate liberation in thislifetime because of their addiction to views.

The answer to the thread is that yes, for Buddha karma and rebirth are for real. And if onewishes to have a full appreciation of the Buddha's teaching, it is important to understand thisfact.

N



The Buddha didn't merely beleive these things, he knew these things to be so, and outlinedmethods through which one may come to know directly oneself.

N


Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

KevinSolway wrote:Buddhists really do believe these things.















Yes, but from the perspective of those who reject your interpretation of rebirth, you are theone who rejects rebirth.

You must be aware that there are other interpretations of rebirth than your own, and thatyour own interpretation may not be the correct one.

Those who reject literal rebirth don't argue such a thing.

Just as a candle can be used to light many other candles, which burn simultaneously, in justthe same way mental activities kindle many other mental activities, in other physical forms,which function simultaneously. For example, a teacher can have many students, and a parentcan have many children.

Cause and effect is a tree‐like web of interactions, rather than a narrow linear channel. Onecause can have countless, simultaneous effects. It's not the case than John Brown dies and isreborn as a frog. That's not the way cause and effect works.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64365)by catmoon » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:55 pm

This thread has been unlocked early and a post editted.



Namdrol wrote:For the Buddha, rebirth, punarbhāva, was a simple fact.

Either one accepts rebirth or one does not.

Arguing that the continual appropriation of new physical forms by an afflictedmental continuum that spans countless eons is not the Buddha's teaching israther unwise, since it clearly is the Buddha's teaching.

"Ananda, there are four kinds of persons existing in the world. What four?

(i) "Here some person kills living beings, takes what is not given, misconductshimself in sexual desires, speaks falsehood, speaks maliciously, speaks harshly,













http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.136.nymo.html)

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gossips, is covetous, is ill‐willed, and has wrong view.[4] On the dissolution ofthe body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappydestination, in perdition, in hell.

(ii) "But here some person kills living beings... and has wrong view. On thedissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, inthe heavenly world.

(iii) "Here some person abstains from killing living beings, from taking what isnot given, from misconduct in sexual desires, from false speech, from maliciousspeech, from harsh speech, from gossip, he is not covetous, is not ill‐willed,and has right view.[5] On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappearsin a happy destination, in the heavenly world.

(iv) "But here some person abstains from killing living beings... and has rightview. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states ofdeprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell...

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi inJeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Subha the student, Todeyya'sson, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetingswith him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to oneside. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, whatis the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen amonghuman beings, among the human race? For short‐lived & long‐lived people areto be seen, sickly & healthy, ugly & beautiful, uninfluential & influential, poor& rich, low‐born & high‐born, stupid & discerning people are to be seen. Sowhat is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seenamong human beings, among the human race?"

"Students, beings are owners of kamma, heir to kamma, born of kamma, relatedthrough kamma, and have kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what createsdistinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement."

"I don't understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's statement spokenin brief without explaining the detailed meaning. It would be good if MasterGotama taught me the Dhamma so that I might understand the detailed meaningof his brief statement."

"In that case, student, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, Master Gotama," Subha the student responded.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.136.nymo.html








http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html)



As to the first point, those who reject serial rebirth do not accept the teaching of the Buddhaon mental causailty.

The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is akiller of living beings, brutal, bloody‐handed, given to killing & slaying, showingno mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions,on the break‐up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane ofdeprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break‐up ofthe body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, thebad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state,then he/she is short‐lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a shortlife: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody‐handed, given to killing &slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man, having abandoned thekilling of living beings, abstains from killing living beings, and dwells with therod laid down, the knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, & sympathetic for thewelfare of all living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions,on the break‐up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a gooddestination, in the heavenly world. If, on the break‐up of the body, after death— instead of reappearing in a good destination, in the heavenly world — he/shecomes to the human state, then he/she is long‐lived wherever reborn. This isthe way leading to a long life: to have abandoned the killing of living beings, toabstain from killing living beings, to dwell with one's rod laid down, one's knifelaid down, scrupulous, merciful, & sympathetic for the welfare of all livingbeings...

KevinSolway wrote:

Those who reject literal rebirth don't argue such a thing.

Just as a candle can be used to light many other candles, which burnsimultaneously, in just the same way mental activities kindle many othermental activities, in other physical forms, which function simultaneously. Forexample, a teacher can have many students, and a parent can have manychildren.

Cause and effect is a tree‐like web of interactions, rather than a narrow linearchannel.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html







As to your second point, this is not what the Buddha meant by rebirth. What did he mean byrebirth? You can read the mahāniddana sutta.

As to your third point, you are conflating the teaching about general cause and effect withdependent origination. Whether you decide to use the model of the Sarvastivadas (six causesand four conditions) or the model of the Theravadins i.e. twenty four conditions (i.e. 6*4)matters little. The teaching of serial rebirth or reincarnation was clearly taught by theBuddha in hundreds of suttas.

You can of course choose to ignore the Buddha's teachings on this point, and try to "interpret"rebirth ‐‐ but you cannot present this modified doctrine as the Buddha's own teaching.

N


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64429)by Astus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:33 pm

Truth can be established only on defining principles. A correct interpretation exists only asfar as one has the means to measure correctness. Truth on its own does not exist. Such is theteaching of dependent origination and emptiness. Therefore one may try to understandrebirth based on Buddhism or based on something else. This way the conclusions are alreadydetermined by one's preconceptions. Only when one becomes open to the Dharma it ispossible to begin comprehending the teaching of the Buddha. How to be open and trustingtoward this teaching of liberation? There are several ways depending on one's mental habitsand ways of thinking. Debates like in this thread may serve such purpose, to assist ingenerating faith. But again, before openness there are only repetitive thought patternscoming from old mental conditioning. To eventually have insight into such a conditioned andnarrow state of mind and see how that mentality could not yield happiness so far is the veryfirst step on the path to enlightenment.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64449)by KevinSolway » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:26 am

KevinSolway wrote:You must be aware that there are other interpretations of rebirth than yourown, and that your own interpretation may not be the correct one.

gregkavarnos wrote:

. . in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell...











Do you honestly think the countless hell realms, with their mountains of red‐hot iron andblack flames, are physically real places? They're not. They are created by the mind of theindividual, here‐and‐now. The reason there are so many hell realms (countless, in fact) isbecause of the countless forms of suffering people create inside their own minds.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64450)by Malcolm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:32 am

From a Mahāyāna perspective, this is a trivial point. Vasubandhu also rejected the physicalexistence of hell realms, but did not reject their existence altogether.

The suffering of a being experiencing a hell realm is far worse than any imaginable humansuffering, however.

N



KevinSolway wrote:

Do you honestly think the countless hell realms, with their mountains of red‐hotiron and black flames, are physically real places? They're not. They are createdby the mind of the individual, here‐and‐now. The reason there are so many hellrealms (countless, in fact) is because of the countless forms of suffering peoplecreate inside their own minds.

gregkavarnos wrote:

. . in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell...

Namdrol wrote:

KevinSolway wrote:Those who reject literal rebirth don't argue such a thing.

Just as a candle can be used to light many other candles, which burnsimultaneously, in just the same way mental activities kindle manyother mental activities, in other physical forms, which functionsimultaneously. For example, a teacher can have many students, and aparent can have many children.











Those who reject literal reincarnation do not reject serial rebirth. "Serial" means "notoccurring at the same time", and indeed, the consequences of one's actions do not occur atthe same time as one's actions, but they occur afterwards. For example, a teacher must firstteach the students before mental activities in the students can be kindled. The one followsthe other, in series. The future follows the present. This is what is meant by "serial rebirth".

Those who reject the literal rebirth interpretation do in fact accept the teaching of theBuddha on mental causality.

Your interpretation differs from mine. Please try to use reason rather than appealing toauthority. The appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, and this should be taught by allBuddhist teachers.

The teaching of the 12 links of dependent origination is a particular application of the fact ofcause and effect, as it pertains to ignorance, happiness and suffering.

I don't know anyone who questions that actions are followed by consequences. That is theessence of serial rebirth. It doesn't have anything to do with people being reborn as frogs orsuchlike speculative nonsense.

Unless you have come up with a way to read words without interpreting them, then you are

As to the first point, those who reject serial rebirth do not accept the teachingof the Buddha on mental causailty.

Cause and effect is a tree‐like web of interactions, rather than a narrowlinear channel.

read the mahāniddana sutta

you are conflating the teaching about general cause and effect with dependentorigination.

The teaching of serial rebirth or reincarnation was clearly taught by the Buddhain hundreds of suttas.

You can of course choose to ignore the Buddha's teachings on this point, and tryto "interpret" rebirth



also interpreting the words.

If you can indeed read words without interpreting them, then you will be the first person inthe whole of history to be able to do so.



And you know this how?


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64457)by Malcolm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:08 am

Yes, in fact they do. If

Not according to the Buddha, and it is Buddha's definition of rebirth that are underconsideration, not Kevin Solway's. In this instance, an appeal to authority is valid since theBuddha' teachings are the one's being considered. In some other circumstance, were weinterested in discussing Kevin Solway's doctrine of karma and so on, then an appeal to theauthority of the Buddha would be useless, since we would not be discussing Buddhism, butrather Solwayism.

Namdrol wrote:The suffering of a being experiencing a hell realm is far worse than anyimaginable human suffering, however.

KevinSolway wrote:

Those who reject literal reincarnation do not reject serial rebirth.

"Serial" means "not occurring at the same time", and indeed, the consequencesof one's actions do not occur at the same time as one's actions, but they occurafterwards. For example, a teacher must first teach the students before mentalactivities in the students can be kindled. The one follows the other, in series.The future follows the present. This is what is meant by "serial rebirth".











Essentially, serial rebirth is the serial or successive appropriation of successive bodies by anafflicted mental continuum; for example, a mental continuum that in one instanceappropriated the body of an amphibian, and later came to appropriate the body of a deva ora human.

If you are not a Buddhist, an appeal to authority of the Buddha is of course useless. If you area Buddhist, then an appeal to the authority of the Buddha' teaching, as recorded in hundredsof suttas, is entirely appropriate.

Essentially, it is rational decision tree:

Does mind derive from matter? Yes or no?

If one answers yes, then one is a physicalist and there is no point in proceding further.Buddha's teachings have little value beyond their ethical content, in this instance. Therenothing particularly special about Buddhist teachings on emptiness, dependent origination,and so on that may be not gleaned from Hume, Adorno and so on.

If no, then we can continue. If mind does not derive from matter, it must have a cause,nevertheless. If it does not have a first cause, it must have a conditioned cause. Since thingslike memory of past lives and so on are best accounted for through mental moments thatexist in a serial continuum, two moments in a continuum being neither the same nor differentfrom one another, things like memory of past lives and so on are easily accounted for withouthaving to invent a self as a repository of information.

It is the nature of mind as a substance (dravya) that requires that all mind are unique‐‐ this iswell established by Vasubandhu.

Those who reject the literal rebirth interpretation do in fact accept theteaching of the Buddha on mental causality.

Your interpretation differs from mine. Please try to use reason rather thanappealing to authority. The appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, and thisshould be taught by all Buddhist teachers.

read the mahāniddana sutta

It doesn't have anything to do with people being reborn as frogs or suchlike



Well, you can accuse the Buddha of being a speculator if you like. It is pretty clear thatBuddha discussed person's taking rebirth as different forms of beings, animals, devas and soon and did so in a manner that indicates he actually beleived in rebirth as I have outlined it.

Now, you don't have to accept it, but please do not expect us to think that the Buddha didnot beleive it. It is very clear that he did.

There no need to interpret what the Buddha has said on this point.

N

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speculative nonsense.

Unless you have come up with a way to read words without interpreting them,then you are also interpreting the words.



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