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14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64210)by catmoon » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:06 am

@ Kevin and Greg

Kevin, meet Greg Kavarnos. Greg, this is Kevin Solway, a longtime poster, video maker androuser of rabbles.

Kevin's thoughts are usually unconventional, strongly expressed, and frustratingly wellthought out.

Greg is a longtime poster here, an old hand as it were, and a full blown tantrika if I am notmistaken.

Greg's thoughts are usually more conventional, almost as strongly expressed and just asfrustratingly well thought out.

Neither of you suffers fools gladly.

Now, how to avoid a terminal exchange of weapons of mass destruction? This is like havingthree bears, two bulls, a tiger and a constipated elephant all in the same phone booth! Let'ssee now...

You both know the rules and are smart enough to find and read the ToS. Do that, and applythe rules to your own posts, not the other guy's.No ad homs please. Diplomacy is required here.Answer the point without protesting the style.Please realize this is a very very tetchy situation and go easy.

I will be praying for you both, and keeping my finger poised over the "Lock Thread" button.

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64212)by Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:45 am

KevinSolway wrote:There is a wealth of nonsense in what is known today as "Buddhism". It has

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Aha! And you are going to be the Martin Luther that will trigger it's Protestant reformation?That sounds just a little arrogant, yes? And what makes you believe that the superstitionsthat may exist, in some forms of Buddhism, do not have a functional value and should bethrown out? On what do you base your opinion?

As for this statement:

Pieces of it have nothing to do with Buddhism and everything to do with personal opinion,other bits have to do with cultural accretions, other bits have to do with Western culturalimperialism and arrogance and other bits clearly show that you have no idea what someforms of Buddhism are about.

So where is the self and where is the other?

You do not approve that people be reminded of their enlightened qualities??? Why?

I let your words (your response to me) speak for themselves.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64214)by KevinSolway » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:43 am

superstition and arrogance coming out of its ears.

For example, "Spin that prayer wheel the wrong way and you will do harm." "Ifyou don't believe that you can be reborn as a fish when you die then you're nota Buddhist." "If you don't receive initiations from a Master then you can'tprogress along the path." "Jesus was not a bodhisattva ‐ he was a Christian."

Yes.

this thing we call self is merely a construct based on a conglomeration ofcauses and conditions which is then held up in opposition to an apparentother. Is this what you mean by "self"?

Yes, I realize that, and you're welcome to do it if you want to. However, I donot approve. In fact, I strongly disapprove. I trust you are comfortable withthis.

That would be a good way to close if you had demonstrated that anything I saidwas misinformed.







It would be, except it's something you just made up. I don't see myself as being able to reformBuddhism. Firstly, I think that Buddhism may be too far gone ‐ to the extent that anyone whois a true Buddhist is commonly regarded to be a non‐Buddhist. And secondly, I can't do italone. A reformation of Buddhism would require a great many people to make the same kindof criticisms of current Buddhist practice that I do.

Superstitions are delusions, and delusions certainly do have a function ‐ the function being toseparate oneself from reality and shield oneself from it.

All delusions should be abandoned because of the harm they do. In the case that individualsrequire some crutches for their survival, then they should not try to force or encourage theircrutches upon others. Delusions should not be made into religious doctrine under anycircumstances.

In my opinion none if it has anything at all to do with reality, or with the teaching of theBuddha. Yet there are countless "Buddhists", and certified Buddhist teachers, telling us thatthis is real Buddhism. An example is the monk in my video, who claims that mind iscompletely independent of the physical world.

gregkavarnos wrote:

Aha! And you are going to be the Martin Luther that will trigger it's Protestantreformation? That sounds just a little arrogant, yes?

KevinSolway wrote:There is a wealth of nonsense in what is known today as "Buddhism". Ithas superstition and arrogance coming out of its ears.

And what makes you believe that the superstitions that may exist, in someforms of Buddhism, do not have a functional value and should be thrown out?On what do you base your opinion?

Pieces of it have nothing to do with Buddhism . . .

For example, "Spin that prayer wheel the wrong way and you will doharm." "If you don't believe that you can be reborn as a fish when youdie then you're not a Buddhist." "If you don't receive initiations from aMaster then you can't progress along the path." "Jesus was not abodhisattva ‐ he was a Christian."

other bits clearly show that you have no idea what some forms of Buddhism areabout.



This is just surmise and wishful thinking on your part.

You are reading this and I am writing it.

I don't approve of people associating helpful words with unhelpful activities.

For example, delusion is called "delusion", and I'm not going to start calling it "truth" toremind me of truth. That would be destroying the language.

Likewise with personal names. To call a person, say, "Light of Enlightenment", when theyspread darkness wherever they go, can't be a good thing.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64216)by Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:05 pm

I'm so glad that someone invented the scroll down. I guess I'll use it often here...

Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64219)by Sherab Dorje » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:15 pm

So that is your diagnosis Doctor (PhD) Death? Euthanasia? I think you may find that 1.5 billionpeople will disagree with you. And what of the second part of your statement? Do youconsider yourself a true Buddhist that is regarded as a non‐Buddhist?

Where is the self and where is the other?

You do not approve that people be reminded of their enlightened qualities???

KevinSolway wrote:It would be, except it's something you just made up. I don't see myself as beingable to reform Buddhism. Firstly, I think that Buddhism may be too far gone ‐ tothe extent that anyone who is a true Buddhist is commonly regarded to be anon‐Buddhist.











Ahhhh... A Moses without a tribe of Isreal. Sorry to be the one to inform you Dave but thecriticisms you make of Buddhism have been made by other Buddhists too. It's just that, notALL Buddhists agree (on either side of the fence).

Whose reality? Ones persons delusions are anothers reality. Collective reality? A collectivedelusion?

I agree 100%. But now you are saying that the Buddha is deluded, since the Buddha taughtrebirth.

Ahhh, there is that reality again... But now you are claiming to know the real Buddhism? Well,that's what it sounds like from here.

Well no, actually it is not. You said this:

And this betrays a complete lack of understanding of Vajrayana practice. Unless you are, ofcourse, a Vajrayana practitioner that has first hand experience of the function and nature ofinitiations. Are you???

Who is reading what?

And secondly, I can't do it alone. A reformation of Buddhism would require agreat many people to make the same kind of criticisms of current Buddhistpractice that I do.

Superstitions are delusions, and delusions certainly do have a function ‐ thefunction being to separate oneself from reality and shield oneself from it.

All delusions should be abandoned because of the harm they do. In the casethat individuals require some crutches for their survival, then they should nottry to force or encourage their crutches upon others. Delusions should not bemade into religious doctrine under any circumstances.

In my opinion none if it has anything at all to do with reality, or with theteaching of the Buddha. Yet there are countless "Buddhists", and certifiedBuddhist teachers, telling us that this is real Buddhism. An example is the monkin my video, who claims that mind is completely independent of the physicalworld.


"If you don't receive initiations from a Master then you can't progress along thepath."

You are reading this and I am writing it.



Helpful to whom? To your "cause"? Anything that is not helpful to your "cause" is delusional?How do you know that you are not delusional?

This is true, but you could label it: " something that leads me away from truth, truth beinglike wisdom, for example" And then just shorten it to "truth of wisdom", otherwise it wouldjust be a mouthful.

You know nothing about the nature of conditioning? Or maybe you completely overlooked myprevious post where I stated that the names are a reminder of what we "should" be?

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Geeeez... One's got his finger on the "lock thread" button and the other has got it on the

"scroll down" function. It's no wonder Buddhists can't agree on anything!


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64224)by KevinSolway » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:08 pm

I don't approve of people associating helpful words with unhelpful activities.

For example, delusion is called "delusion", and I'm not going to start calling it"truth" to remind me of truth. That would be destroying the language.

Likewise with personal names. To call a person, say, "Light of Enlightenment",when they spread darkness wherever they go, can't be a good thing.

Dechen Norbu wrote::roll: I'm so glad that someone invented the scroll down. I guess I'll use it often

here...

Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.

Dechen Norbu wrote:Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.












All these warnings, and yet I was thinking the exchange has been rather civil.

I don't think a discussion can be much more civil than this when people are expressing whatthey really think. The good thing about this recent exchange is that no‐one has resorted toquoting scripture and appealing to authority. One can only hope that continues.



Hey! That's not true! I did quote scripture, right here viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678&start=220#p64204 (http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678&start=220#p64204) did you overlook this fact because the scripture I quoted wasactually in defence of your position?Tsk‐tsk‐tsk!

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64227)by deepbluehum » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:27 pm

Right in some respect wrong in others. The Buddha was plain spoken. Birth means birth,death means death. Kamma means actions. Phala means results. Rebirth means rebirth. Thisis held together by the 12‐links. He said if you see the 12‐links you see the Dhamma. If youknow the 12‐links going on, then there's vijja not avijja, and the whole causal chain is broken.He didn't explain exactly how someone's kamma works; he just said kamma is sankhara, whichis basically unconscious urges spurning you to act with body, speech and mind, and he saidhow that works out in rebirth is imponderable. But if you overcome avijja, then you go to oneof the four paths, and as an Arahant will not be reborn. This all applies equally to Mahayanaand Vajrayana. So our new aspiring teacher is right in the respect that the 12‐links are everymoment, and they are not in any moment when there is vijja. Then, if you attain the level ofa buddha, when the breath and heart stop and body begins to decay, there is no death.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64230)by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:35 pm

KevinSolway wrote:...The good thing about this recent exchange is that no‐one has resorted toquoting scripture and appealing to authority. One can only hope that continues.





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The analysis of NDE is wrong. The evidence suggests that there are folks who have memoriesconsisting of sound, light and form (of the operating room and staff) when their bodies, onthe surgical table, were in a state of clinical death. FAIL!

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That's correct. And anyone who considers me a Buddhist wouldn't be considered a Buddhist.

I can't agree with that. There's only one reality. If every person has their own reality thenthere's no point helping people to overcome their delusions.

As you know, I have the following interpretation of rebirth.

"Birth" in Buddhism has nothing at all to do with physical birth. "Birth" refers to the birth ofthe false "I", which repeatedly arises in non‐Buddhas. Likewise "Ageing and death" has nothingto do with physical ageing and death, but it refers to the ending of the happiness that isassociated with attachments.

catmoon wrote:This is like having three bears, two bulls, a tiger and a constipated elephant allin the same phone booth! Let's see now...

gregkavarnos wrote:Do you consider yourself a true Buddhist that is regarded as a non‐Buddhist?

Ones persons delusions are anothers reality.

the Buddha taught rebirth.












So while it is still called "rebirth" it is entirely different to what is commonly believed andtaught by Buddhist teachers, such as the Dalai Lama, et al.

That which is popularly called "rebirth" is in fact not rebirth at all, but is just a fantasy.

The reason I put those words in quotation marks is that they are not my words. I'm simplyrelaying what I have heard from many Buddhist teachers and practitioners. These teacherssincerely believe that you must go through certain formal initiations, with a physical, humanteacher, in order to progress along the path. I have explained to them why they aremistaken, politely giving clear and detailed reasons, but they are adamant.

The same way any wise person knows they are not delusional.

Conditioning is the whole problem. I'd prefer that people weren't conditioned to associatewholesome words with unwholesome things.



Well no, actually it is not. You said this:

And this betrays a complete lack of understanding of Vajrayana practice. Unlessyou are, of course, a Vajrayana practitioner that has first hand experience ofthe function and nature of initiations. Are you???


"If you don't receive initiations from a Master then you can't progressalong the path."

How do you know that you are not delusional?

You know nothing about the nature of conditioning?

Likewise with personal names. To call a person, say, "Light ofEnlightenment", when they spread darkness wherever they go, can't be agood thing.

deepbluehum wrote:The analysis of NDE is wrong. The evidence suggests that there are folks who







"Clinical death" means the cessation of blood circulation and breathing. In other words, it isnot death, since there can still be oxygen in the brain and the brain can still be functioning.Only when all the oxygen is gone from the brain will the brain cease to function, and this cantake some time.



Clinical death is the clinical determination "that's guy's dead." RONG!



You do realize that even in English the word "birth" has a great many different meanings, andit doesn't mean only the physical birth of the body.

I thank you for your personal interpretation, but on this occasion I think I will reject it, since Idon't believe your interpretation is consistent with the rest of the Buddha's teachings, or withmy reasoning, or with everyday common sense.

have memories consisting of sound, light and form when their bodies, on thesurgical table, were in a state of clinical death. FAIL!

KevinSolway wrote:

"Clinical death" means the cessation of blood circulation and breathing. In otherwords, it is not death, since there can still be oxygen in the brain and the braincan still be functioning. Only when all the oxygen is gone from the brain willthe brain cease to function, and this can take some time.

deepbluehum wrote:The analysis of NDE is wrong. The evidence suggests that there are folkswho have memories consisting of sound, light and form when theirbodies, on the surgical table, were in a state of clinical death. FAIL!

deepbluehum wrote:The Buddha was plain spoken. Birth means birth, death means death.













No, what birth means is you are born screaming and continue in life whining and moaning allthe while. Ageing and death means when you get old, your body starts to hurt and stopworking. When you get sick, you feel like shit. And when you die, you die terrified. TheBuddha was not a philosophizer. He wasn't speaking in code.



I don't expect you to buy my brand of bread, but I'm just making a record for posterity. Thereare many folks these days trying to redefine what the Buddha said. You're in good company.

As best I can, I try to take the Buddha's words at face value. Give up desires, meditate, nosuffering. Pretty simple.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real?

KevinSolway wrote:As you know, I have the following interpretation of rebirth.

"Birth" in Buddhism has nothing at all to do with physical birth. "Birth" refers tothe birth of the false "I", which repeatedly arises in non‐Buddhas. Likewise"Ageing and death" has nothing to do with physical ageing and death, but itrefers to the ending of the happiness that is associated with attachments.

KevinSolway wrote:

You do realize that even in English the word "birth" has a great many differentmeanings, and it doesn't mean only the physical birth of the body.

I thank you for your personal interpretation, but on this occasion I think I willreject it, since I don't believe your interpretation is consistent with the rest ofthe Buddha's teachings, or with my reasoning, or with everyday common sense.

deepbluehum wrote:The Buddha was plain spoken. Birth means birth, death means death.













Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64241)by LastLegend » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:05 pm

If I may

What is delusion and what is truth?

George Ohsawa said "Freedom is to be found only through slavery. The loveliest lotus flowergrows in the dirtiest mud."



Avidya is not delusion. It is unknowing. Being unaware that these 12‐links are happening.Becoming aware of it makes it go away.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64244)by Dechen Norbu » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:10 pm

Don't see it as a warning. It's a reminder after a yawn... Carry on! After all this is the dharmic free for all...

LastLegend wrote:If I may

What is delusion and what is truth?

George Ohsawa said "Freedom is to be found only through slavery. The loveliestlotus flower grows in the dirtiest mud."

KevinSolway wrote:

All these warnings, and yet I was thinking the exchange has been rather civil.

I don't think a discussion can be much more civil than this when people areexpressing what they really think. The good thing about this recent exchange isthat no‐one has resorted to quoting scripture and appealing to authority. Onecan only hope that continues.

Dechen Norbu wrote:Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.













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