s

14/10/2558 Dharma Wheel • View topic Are Karma and Rebirth Real?

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678&start=120 1/10

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana BuddhismSearch… SearchAdvanced search

Are Karma and Rebirth Real?Forum rulesPost a replySearch this topic… Search773 posts • Page 7 of 39 • 1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 39Report this post (./report.php?f=66&p=62942)Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=66&p=62942)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62942)by Thug4lyfe » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:13 am

So much arrogant delusions! You don't jump off the raft before you cross the river, you'lldrown! All this stuff about letting go is for the ADVANCED practitoners who are ready! Youain't going no where when you can't even absorb Buddhism101 into your system!

The trouble with the internet etc is that people will always go the advanced stuff and missout the basics, then start leading other people astray like that Alan Watts!

TopReport this post (./report.php?f=66&p=62946)Reply with quote (./posting.php?mode=quote&f=66&p=62946)

Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62946)by edearl » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:17 am

That you and others are unmoved is OK, it is good for me to tell others how I feel. Moreover,being around good people is also good for me who has been (and can be good for many otherpeople who are) lost in this push‐and‐shove (virtually eat‐or‐be‐eaten) world. Whether I orothers are ever considered to be Buddhist by anyone here is not as important as learning

Kyosan wrote:

From the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra

edearl wrote:This discussion has been interesting to follow, and demonstrates severalawesome characteristics of Buddhists, including tolerance andmindfulness.

While like Mount Sumeru you are unmoved by both praise and censure.Your compassion is extended to both good and evil men, like space thymind remains impartial. Does not anyone revere this human Buddhaafter hearing about Him?

http://dharmawheel.net/search.php

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678&start=120

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=12768#p166491

http://dharmawheel.net/posting.php?mode=reply&f=66&t=5678

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678








http://dharmawheel.net/report.php?f=66&p=62942

http://dharmawheel.net/posting.php?mode=quote&f=66&p=62942

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=62942#p62942

http://dharmawheel.net/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1310







about Buddhism and integrating that knowledge into my life (and others into their lives).

::EPIPHANY::

Metta


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62949)by Kyosan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:18 am

I like your post. I posted that quote because you mentioned impartiality and I wantedto show you that impartiality is very important in Buddhism. It's one of the characteristics ofBuddha and we are supposed to try to be like him. And it's something that is especiallyimportant to me; I think because I see so much hatred and bias in the world, and it doesn'thave to be that way. This causes much suffering in the world.

You are right; even though we have disagreements we are all good people, not perfect buttrying our best.

::FIREFOX:: if that's what you mean


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62957)by edearl » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:58 am

Kyosan wrote:

edearl wrote:That you and others are unmoved is OK, it is good for me to tell othershow I feel. Moreover, being around good people is also good for me whohas been (and can be good for many other people who are) lost in thispush‐and‐shove (virtually eat‐or‐be‐eaten) world. Whether I or othersare ever considered to be Buddhist by anyone here is not as importantas learning about Buddhism and integrating that knowledge into my life(and others into their lives).

::EPIPHANY::

Metta

Kyosan wrote:

I like your post. I posted that quote because you mentioned impartialityand I wanted to show you that impartiality is very important in Buddhism. It'sone of the characteristics of Buddha and we are supposed to try to be like him.











I am studying the 37 factors of enlightenment and Bodhipakkhiyādhammā (whew‐‐amouth full) and find almost all of it reasonable and acceptable. At the moment I have onlyone issue, faith. That's because my family, mom especially, said, "Trust me. Have faith inChristianity," but my family and church are bigoted, intolerant, vindictive, and have otherincredible beliefs. That experience has made me mistrust anyone who states a belief andexpects me believe it because of trust. In my opinion, blind faith is an ugly thing because anotherwise good person can be led to do bad things. On the other hand, one cannot live theirlives without faith. Math and logic simply cannot scientifically prove everything needed to liveones life. Faith filtered by reason is OK and needed. Needless to say, I was very impressedthat the Buddha said don't blindly trust me, think about my philosophy and if it makes sense,follow me. That was the start of my epiphany, and it continues as I learn more. It is as if theBuddha read my mind, figured out many things I had been unable to work out, and now istelling me the things I want to know.

I felt like shouting EPIPHANY, meaning "a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into thereality or essential meaning of something," (Dictionary.com)

I looked up the definition, and found that it is also a Christian festival‐‐not what I meant.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62969)by Dechen Norbu » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:07 pm



And it's something that is especially important to me; I think because I see somuch hatred and bias in the world, and it doesn't have to be that way. Thiscauses much suffering in the world.

You are right; even though we have disagreements we are all good people, notperfect but trying our best.

::FIREFOX:: if that's what you mean

TMingyur wrote:Be that as it may ... from within the context of the teachings volitionalformations manifesting of the kind "there is re‐birth" or "there is no rebirth" willlead to further being born.











If death is annihilation, it really doesn't matter, because there will be no further "beingborn". The Noble Eightfold Path starts and ends with Right View. One should try to cultivate it. It'salways a project as when one truly realizes right view one realizes enlightenment. First onehas an intellectual understanding about the teachings and it is this that guides practice. Thenthere's a feedback and practice brings insight, refining the view even intellectually. It goes onand on like that until the insights become deeper and deeper, to the point of no longer beingable to be fully understood by those who never had them. It's then inexpressible. I'm sure youget the point. Now, if we don't make an effort to develop Right View, it doesn't really matterif we call ourselves Buddhist or not. This doesn't work by labeling. Right View, when we start,mostly implies the first two wisdoms: hearing (studying) and contemplating (thinking aboutone has read). Then comes meditation. Depending on the school, there are many methods,different texts and so on. But what you won't ever see, not mattering the tradition, is a textdenying rebirth. This is not because rebirth is a tremendously important teaching, butbecause usually a single lifetime is not enough to complete the path, so if we can have somecontrol over it, gaining a life in which there are less obstacles to practice is wise. Otherwise,the teachings about rebirth are not that special. We just need to do our best to avoid a nastyrebirth. This means living morally (and here we could start a new debate) and practicing.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62974)by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:37 pm

Yes.

_/\_

And for the record I actually do believe in rebirth ‐ as a result of my practice ‐ so what I amtrying to figure out is its proper place in the view.

However there is a difference when there is fear or aversion or being worriedabout when it happens. This was the meaning intended with the term"embrace".

All this fancy discursive fabrications about "rebirth" won't help ... what is ofhelp however is the eightfold path which entails cessation of speculations andequanimous and/or joyful letting go.

Kind regards

Dechen Norbu wrote:Rebirth is a phenomenon, like death or sickness. It has conventional existence

and that's it. What you do when facing that idea is up to you.

You're a student of ChNN, right? So I would say, just do your best.









Annihilationism is no argument against rebirth because a permanent heaven or hell ispossible and is not annihilation. So ‐ back to why rebirth in particular is right view forrenunciation.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62978)by Josef » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Read The Precious Vase and Longchenpa's Precious Treasury of Philosophical Systems.



Yes thank you I have read them I will be sure to check them out again.



Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

Yes.

_/\_

And for the record I actually do believe in rebirth ‐ as a result of my practice ‐so what I am trying to figure out is its proper place in the view.

Dechen Norbu wrote:Rebirth is a phenomenon, like death or sickness. It has conventionalexistence and that's it. What you do when facing that idea is up to you.

You're a student of ChNN, right? So I would say, just do your best.




















In the very beginning of both text they start off by explaining the problems with non‐Buddhistviews that either argue for nothingness or a permanent self. A review of these argumentspretty firmly establishes why our view is what it is and why it makes sense.They are kind of boring explainations but worth a re‐read.



Not being sure about anything may solely mean confusion. Loosening up our convictions is onething, because we gain space to learn, to change, to cultivate, to relax, you name it.Becoming lost is another thing all together. Pretty much that's how we have been or still are,even when we adhere to this or that belief or to the belief of disbelieving. Nothing specialabout that. Not knowing what is the path (or the way, if you prefer) may lead us to think weare walking it while in fact we a threading a fantasy. The path is there, has been discoveredand revealed and now it's up to us to walk it or not. It's solely our responsibility. If we don'tknow what to accept and what to reject in post meditation, we may end up far away fromthe Buddhadharma while thinking we're Buddhists. This is really a shame, because there wasa will, there was time we spent, there were sitting sessions and after all we just ended upspoiling our precious existence in a senseless fantasy of our own making. Again, this isn'tdirectly addressed to you!




Kyosan wrote:

When you are no longer sure about anything , I think that is a good sign. Butstill you have the Way, even though you don't know exactly what the Way is.

TMingyur wrote:All this fancy discursive fabrications about "rebirth" won't help ... what isof help however is the eightfold path which entails cessation ofspeculations and joyful letting go.

Kind regards

Nangwa wrote:












_/\_

I must keep reminding myself of proper view all the time.



Well said.



KDT,

It's always useful. I'm not saying you don't, but be sure to understand ChNN properly andclosely. Many unfortunately don't get his teachings as they should and end up in their own"Dzogchen", misinterpreting the role of secondary practices and the view that supports them,even when done keeping Dzogchen in mind. I'm not saying this thinking in any way that you've

In the very beginning of both text they start off by explaining the problems withnon‐Buddhist views that either argue for nothingness or a permanent self. Areview of these arguments pretty firmly establishes why our view is what it isand why it makes sense.They are kind of boring explainations but worth a re‐read.


Dechen Norbu wrote:Not being sure about anything may solely mean confusion. Loosening up ourconvictions is one thing, because we gain space to learn, to change, tocultivate, to relax, you name it. Becoming lost is another thing all together.Pretty much that's how we have been or still are, even when we adhere to thisor that belief or to the belief of disbelieving. Nothing special about that. Notknowing what is the path (or the way, if you prefer) may lead us to think weare walking it while in fact we a threading a fantasy. The path is there, hasbeen discovered and revealed and now it's up to us to walk it or not. It's solelyour responsibility. If we don't know what to accept and what to reject in postmeditation, we may end up far away from the Buddhadharma while thinkingwe're Buddhists. This is really a shame, because there was a will, there wastime we spent, there were sitting sessions and after all we just ended upspoiling our precious existence in a senseless fantasy of our own making. Again,

this isn't directly addressed to you!











misinterpreted him, but as it happens so often I might as well take it off my chest!

Nangwa gave you sound advice, as usual.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p62992)by Sherab Dorje » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:24 pm

An extract from Matrceta's Hymn to the Buddha, An English Rendering of the Satapañcasatkahttp://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el360.html(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammika/wheel360.html) The translated text itself is well worth reading. A fantastic poetic praise of the qualities ofShakyamuni Buddha.



Nice post, Greg. Whenever we start a project, we need a certain degree of faith. To test a hypothesis, forinstance, I need to have some faith in it. Otherwise I wouldn't even bother.



There can be no doubt that Matrceta's hymn likewise is an expression of a deepdevotion to the Buddha and an admiration of his qualities. But quite apart fromthe author's motive in writing it, the value and indeed the purpose of the Hymnto the Buddha is twofold. First it is meant to awaken our faith. Matrcetarecognized as did the Lord himself that faith has the power to arouse atremendous amount of positive zeal and energy. Long before we have directlyexperienced it, faith keeps our eyes fixed firmly on the goal. When we stumbleand fall, faith picks us up; when doubt causes us to falter, it urges us on; andwhen we get side‐tracked, it brings us back to the Path. Without faith in theBuddha and the efficacy of his Dharma we would never even bother to try toput the teachings into practice. As Nagarjuna says:

One associates with the Dharma out of faith, but one knows truly out ofunderstanding; understanding is the chief of the two, but faith precedes.

Dechen Norbu wrote:KDT,





http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammika/wheel360.html











Thank you I am always trying to do so. I am always trying to remain as close to my teacher aspossible. I think I have seen a few students of dzogchen think they get it early on (i.e. thefirst few years) and then proceed right back into their own little hall of mirrors they left inthe first place. So the practice is very simple, but very hard at the same time.

I also have this tendency on the boards to take a position opposite to the one I really believeand then try to play devil's advocate. I don't know why I do this. Probably my perverse nature.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63002)by deepbluehum » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:00 pm

This quip, while sounding spiritual, completely misses the mark. I haven't said one shouldbehave compassionately for fear of punishment, nor have I said not to question beliefs forfear of what they might entail. You all are conditioned by the Church. I don't have theproblem. The teaching on karma is very simple and verifiable. Good deeds result in pleasureand a higher rebirth; bad deeds result in pain and a lower rebirth. The path provides themethods to test these. You do not have a sound working basis to test these until the methodsare taught to you. Until then, you will have to go on faith that the methods will do the job.

Again you are just waxing poetic to get fools to chime in; again, completely off the mark. Theabove‐cited sutta states that a beginner has to trust the Buddha first, then later, theanswers become clear. The point is that you never just believe their is karma or rebirth, justbecause the Buddha said so. But you also don't disbelieve it and distrust the Buddha. You keepan open mind, "this is the teaching of the Omniscient one," and you proceed along the path

It's always useful. I'm not saying you don't, but be sure to understand ChNNproperly and closely. Many unfortunately don't get his teachings as they shouldand end up in their own "Dzogchen", misinterpreting the role of secondarypractices and the view that supports them, even when done keeping Dzogchenin mind. I'm not saying this thinking in any way that you've misinterpreted him,

but as it happens so often I might as well take it off my chest!

Nangwa gave you sound advice, as usual.

Acchantika wrote:Behaving compassionately for fear of punishment and want of reward is notmorality.

Refusing to question our beliefs for fear of what may be entailed is not wisdom.

He says they should develop conviction in practice based on trust in theirteachers. Not reify arbitrary beliefs and call it virtue.







step by step slowly verifying the trust behind the Master's words.

Seriously, you Westerners need to drop the New Age Guru aspirations or you will be left inthe dust. This is the degenerate age. Dharma will not be here for long.


Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p63005)by deepbluehum » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:19 pm

Basically the Buddha set out the figure out the ultimate place of rest. If death were it, thatwould be enough. But it turns out that death is not the end. So you have to go deeper intowhat is driving existence. Hence the twelve links, five heaps, the four noble truths and thepath.

TopPreviousNext Display posts from previous: All posts Sort by Post time Ascending GoPost a reply773 posts • Page 7 of 39 • 1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 39Return to Open DharmaJump to: Open Dharma Go

Who is onlineUsers browsing this forum: Lazy_eye, websat11 and 1 guest©2015 David N. Snyder, Ph.D., Vipassana Foundation in association with The Dhamma Encyclopedia

Dharma Wheel is associated with DhammaWheel.com, DhammaWiki.com, and TheDhamma.com..

Chat room>







http://dharmawheel.net/posting.php?mode=reply&f=66&t=5678

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=5678








http://dharmawheel.net/viewforum.php?f=66

http://dharmawheel.net/viewonline.php



http://www.thedhamma.com/

http://www.dhammawiki.com/

http://www.dhammawheel.com/

http://dhammawiki.com/

http://thedhamma.com/

http://dharmawheel.net/chat/index.php

s

Documents

Transcript of s