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Transcript of Rohr, Mark | Trascript, 1-28-14 investigation
Transcript of the Testimony of Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation)
Date: January 28, 2014Volume: I
Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
Printed On: January 30, 2014
Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078
Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]
Internet:
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
417-358-4078
Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.
Page 1
IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION
SWORN STATEMENT OF
MARK ROHR
Taken on Tuesday, January 28, 2014, from 1:07 p.m. to 1:54
p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson, LLC, 626
S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper, State of
Missouri, before
SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,
a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and
for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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Page 2
APPEARANCES
MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE
Loraine & Associates, LLC
4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300
Osage Beach, MO 65065
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.
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S T I P U L A T I O N
IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED that this Sworn
Statement may be taken by steno-mask type recording by
SHARON K. ROGERS, a Certified Court Reporter, and
afterwards reduced into typewriting.
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.
Page 4
I N D E X
Page/Line
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-2
E X H I B I T S
Exhibit #54 . . . . . . . 6-16
Land Purchase Financial Summary
Note: Exhibits in separate binder
(sic) - typed as spoken
(ph.) - phonetic
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 MARK ROHR
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:
3 Q. Mr. Rohr, you remember we had a brief
4 interview depo several weeks ago, probably a
5 month now? Do you have a recollection of
6 that?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And at that time I had you sign what I call a
9 Garrity Warning. Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And also we put you under oath at that time
12 and you swore to tell the truth?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I would like to remind you of those items and
15 remind you, also, that this is a continuation
16 of that depo and if you will be reminded that
17 you're still under oath. Do you understand?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I had a couple of follow-up questions, and I
20 know we had a lengthy discussion, but there
21 were some follow-ups necessary and I
22 attempted to get information -
23 (Off record discussion concerning exhibits)
24 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Last time I was here I was
25 trying to determine on the Wallace-Bajjali
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 matter all the matters that are in existence
2 or all the transactions that have occurred
3 between the 353 Corporation and
4 Wallace-Bajjali to acquire property, that's
5 the subject matter that I'm interested in. I
6 did not receive the participation that I had
7 anticipated from Wallace-Bajjali or from Mr.
8 Kuehn. You know who Mr. Kuehn is?
9 A. Charlie.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I was hoping to, therefore, have some of this
13 information, but neither of them were
14 forthcoming with the information. So what I
15 am interested in, and I'm going to show you
16 what's been marked Exhibit #54 for this
17 portion of your depo, and I apologize, it's a
18 little hard to read. The original I had was
19 in color and I can show you that, if you
20 wish, but I'd like you to look at this #54.
21 And let me say to you that this has been
22 presented to me as a list of all the
23 properties that have wound up in the 353
24 Corporation.
25 A. Okay.
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 Q. Now having said that you'll note in looking
2 at that there's various categories of these
3 items. Lot Size is the first column, Lot
4 Size/Acres, Settlement Date to the right of
5 that, Valuation Amount to the right of that,
6 Purchase Price, then the next one is
7 Wallace-Bajjali Fee, then we've got Closing
8 Fees, Total Amount Paid, Purchase Price Per
9 Square Foot, and Appraised Price Per Square
10 Foot. Have you ever seen this document prior
11 to coming in here today?
12 A. I may have. This document itself doesn't
13 look familiar, but I've seen a list, a
14 compilation of the properties at some point.
15 And it may have been this list. I can't say
16 for sure.
17 Q. Okay. You would be the one for the City that
18 would keep track of the 353 purchases?
19 A. Not really. I think the Finance Director
20 keeps pretty close track of that. I'm kind
21 of the overview.
22 Q. That would be Haase?
23 A. Yeah, Leslie, right. I mean I'm the contact
24 person with Wallace-Bajjali, but I don't mind
25 all the details.
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 Q. All contacts with Wallace-Bajjali come
2 through you?
3 A. We try to do that. That's been adjusted at
4 various times because that's been a source of
5 problems when that hasn't occurred.
6 Q. That's your policy anyway, that all contacts
7 should be made through you?
8 A. It kind of ebbs and flows and we're now in
9 the period where it's not. It's kind of
10 ebbing, meaning that there's more people
11 having contact with them.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And the reason for that is for the discussion
14 details. And it frustrates me, but I realize
15 there's a need for it because if they're
16 talking about minute things, about CBG funds
17 and even some things on here I wouldn't have
18 any expertise to be able to refer to it and
19 speed it up. Sometimes there is direct
20 contact made between someone from
21 Wallace-Bajjali and someone from City staff.
22 Q. Are you generally made aware of those
23 contacts?
24 A. More often than not, but not all of the time.
25 There are times where that does not happen,
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 there's lapses.
2 Q. This would be a concern of yours to try to
3 funnel the information through you and on to
4 the other people and vice versa?
5 A. I've tried to. It's been problematic at
6 least twice and I've tried to take corrective
7 action and now like I said we're kind of
8 bouncing back into it again.
9 Q. Let's look at the column on this particular
10 thing on the very bottom. I see a figure and
11 it says $8,818,765.00. Now I'm told that is
12 the total amount paid to Wallace-Bajjali from
13 the 353 Corporation.
14 A. No, I think what that is, sir, that's the
15 amount that the 353 has paid the individual
16 property owners which forms the cost basis
17 going forward and Wallace-Bajjali's fee is
18 part of that. That's what I think that
19 means.
20 Q. Okay. So in other words they have it broken
21 out here. So that would be the new basis if
22 we can in all this acquired property then?
23 A. I believe so. And I think that forms the
24 basis for the repurchase of the property as
25 it develops by Wallace-Bajjali.
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1 Q. Okay. Now according to this
2 Wallace-Bajjali's fee on at least the
3 properties, I counted them, maybe there are
4 36 of them or something, but in any case on
5 this exhibit that's marked #54 there appears
6 to be a Wallace-Bajjali fee of $417,900.00?
7 A. Yes, and I would presume that's probably 5.75
8 percent of the 8.8 million.
9 Q. And neither of us being mathematicians and
10 not having computers I'll give it to you
11 that's a pretty close guess.
12 A. Or 5.75 percent of the 8.2 number. Yeah, I
13 believe that's more accurate because that's
14 the base number and the fee is added onto
15 that, so the far column the higher number
16 would be the amount that would be paid for
17 that lot because it includes all the fees
18 including the Wallace-Bajjali fee when they
19 buy it back. Does that make sense?
20 Q. Yes, so the $8,818,765.00 figure, that's the
21 one on the far right, --
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. -- that would be the cost to Wallace-Bajjali
24 when they buy it back from the 353?
25 A. That's my understanding.
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 Q. Okay. Now that has not occurred?
2 A. No, they're on the verge of doing that. At
3 the time that they would take that property
4 down or purchase it would be when a
5 development goes forward, and I think we're
6 on the verge of doing that for what they call
7 The Villas which is the senior housing down
8 at 26th and Maiden Lane, in that vicinity.
9 Q. And that wouldn't probably be all of this
10 property, that would be some portion of it?
11 A. Yes, you're right, that's only a subset of
12 the overall property list.
13 Q. Now when I look at the column called Purchase
14 Price I see that the other closing fees and
15 the Wallace-Bajjali fee is not included in
16 that figure?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You would agree with that?
19 A. I think you're right.
20 Q. Now on that purchase price figure what my
21 goal is and what I'm trying to find out is
22 this is the price that Wallace-Bajjali paid
23 somebody else to acquire all of these
24 properties?
25 A. Actually literally the 353 paid someone else
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 and Wallace-Bajjali will pick it up at the
2 end.
3 Q. And thank you for the correction.
4 Technically it's going to wind up with
5 Wallace-Bajjali after they buy it back, but
6 right now the 353 has paid that amount?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Exclusive of other costs and Wallace-Bajjali
9 fees?
10 A. I think they paid that, too.
11 Q. Well, I mean the figure of $8,267,000.00 does
12 not include Wallace-Bajjali fees and other
13 closing costs?
14 A. That's hard property.
15 Q. That's a good word. Let's call it hard
16 property costs. Now what I would like to know
17 is how much was paid by the 353 Corporation
18 to the various entities that owned these
19 properties because I'm anticipating there was
20 additional price upgrades or additional costs
21 over and above from the original purchaser?
22 A. I'm assuming that the price they paid to the
23 owner of the property is that middle column
24 which says Purchase Price which adds up to
25 your $8,267,000.00. That's my understanding.
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 Q. That would be the amount that was paid to -
2 let us say there's a middle man. Let's say
3 Mr. Kuehn bought one of these pieces of
4 property.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Now would Mr. Kuehn have gotten a profit
7 figure over and above what he paid to acquire
8 the property?
9 A. It's my understanding he could have.
10 Q. And how do we know what that figure is? How
11 can we establish that?
12 A. You'd probably have to find out through the
13 tax records.
14 Q. Well, the tax records won't indicate that.
15 A. The county records?
16 Q. I don't think so.
17 A. You're an attorney. You know better than I
18 do. I would think it would be available at
19 the county because it would be the amount of
20 the transaction that Mr. Kuehn, if he's the
21 intermediary, would have paid to you, for
22 instance, if you were an individual property
23 owner. Because this came up in one of the
24 JRC meetings.
25 Q. I know it has and people have asked for this
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 number before. And I'm asking for this
2 number and I can't - so far I've not been
3 able to acquire it.
4 A. Okay. I don't have it.
5 Q. You do not have it, however I'm presuming
6 that you have the authority to acquire that
7 number. You certainly can request it of
8 Wallace-Bajjali, call the closing sheets of
9 each one of these if you have to?
10 A. I would think that I wouldn't. I'd have to
11 talk to an attorney before doing so, but I
12 don't think that I would. I don't have them,
13 but I guess --
14 Q. Well, let me ask you this. You have to talk
15 to a personal attorney?
16 A. No, I mean legal advice.
17 Q. I don't care about that.
18 A. And I'm not saying that to be contentious,
19 I'm just saying I would think that I have
20 that right, but I don't know that for sure.
21 We'd have to refer to some of the documents
22 that we have in place as in the contractual
23 arrangements, I would think.
24 Q. Well, here is the thing, you know, I'm trying
25 to investigate under the City Council's
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 mandate, I'm trying to investigate and find
2 out certain things. And to the end that I'm
3 trying to find those things out I do not have
4 control over Mr. Kuehn or Wallace-Bajjali. I
5 certainly have control over you and I have
6 control over Mr. Head.
7 A. And I'm not fighting you.
8 Q. I understand that. But to the extent that I
9 need to acquire information I can't make
10 Wallace-Bajjali sit in here. This is not a
11 grand jury.
12 A. You have more control over me than --
13 Q. I have total control over you, but I do not
14 have total control of them.
15 A. I didn't know what we were meeting about
16 today.
17 Q. And I understand that.
18 A. So I mean if that's something you're asking
19 me to do what I will do is go back and have
20 to talk to Brian about it and see whether or
21 not I'm entitled to that information as the
22 contact person for the City. And I don't
23 know that I would be, you know, not
24 contending with what you're saying, I've just
25 got to - not being a legal authority I've got
Mark Rohr (1-28-14 Investigation) In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation
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1 to --
2 Q. Well, you don't have any legal training as I
3 understand from your prior depo?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. So you're saying, your question in your mind
6 is does the City have the right to know what
7 I'm asking. That's what you're really
8 saying?
9 A. Yes, and I have no direct knowledge on how
10 this works or what the legal requirements
11 are. I do know I'm working with vital
12 businessmen that they're not as forthcoming
13 with information as the City has to be by
14 virtue of the Sunshine Law.
15 Q. Exactly. Exactly. We're working with
16 Wallace-Bajjali on a contract.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So one of the questions that seems to me that
19 you're asking is would your contract rights
20 with Wallace-Bajjali extend what I'm
21 questioning or what I'm seeking to force them
22 to answer your questions?
23 A. That's exactly what I'm saying.
24 Q. And I think that's legitimate for you to
25 inquire into that. And now let's stop that
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1 discussion for a second and let me ask you
2 this question. Whom else for the City would
3 I seek this information from if not you?
4 A. Let me caution what I'm saying. I don't know
5 that Leslie or Brian would have this
6 information.
7 Q. They do not apparently.
8 A. But they in certain instances are more
9 acquainted with the details of this than I
10 am. Not that this hasn't crossed in front of
11 me at some point, it's just that I'm the City
12 Manager and the CEO and I deal with more
13 widespread things than details and they
14 handle the details for it. So I'm not saying
15 that they have that. To answer your question
16 I would think it would be one of those two,
17 but I don't know that they have that.
18 Q. Well, let's suggest this. I talked with Mrs.
19 Haase about it and I talked to Brian and
20 neither have that information.
21 A. And that doesn't surprise me, but I'm saying
22 to answer your question it would be one of us
23 three.
24 Q. That would be it then. There would be nobody
25 else other than you three?
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1 A. I wouldn't know of anyone else.
2 Q. Well, that helps me.
3 A. And perhaps maybe Troy Bolander as the
4 Planning Director.
5 Q. Who is he now?
6 A. He's the Director of Planning. He just got a
7 promotion. He's one of the two assistant
8 department heads in the Public Works
9 Department. I don't think he does, but it's
10 a possibility that he might.
11 Q. Okay. Can you do this, Mr. Rohr? I'm under
12 what I call considerable time constraints and
13 this issue must be answered really by Monday.
14 I would like to give you until the close of
15 business Friday to do whatever you think you
16 can do to acquire that information.
17 A. Can you send me something asking me for that?
18 Q. I'm telling you right now. If you'd like to
19 have a copy of this portion of the transcript
20 --
21 A. Yeah, I'd like to have something.
22 Q. I have gone through the exhibit, I'll give
23 you a copy of that exhibit. We've gone
24 through that exhibit and we've talked about
25 what it is that I am seeking. Do you
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1 understand what we have talked about?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Okay. That's what I want.
4 A. You wouldn't send that in an email to me?
5 A. No, sir, I will not. I will give you a copy
6 of this document before you leave today.
7 BY MR. LORAINE: Can you send him a
8 copy of this portion of the depo?
9 BY COURT REPORTER: Of the request
10 that you want?
11 BY MR. LORAINE: Yes.
12 BY COURT REPORTER: Okay.
13 BY THE WITNESS: Do you want my email
14 address?
15 BY MR. LORAINE: Okay. Would you
16 give that to him?
17 BY COURT REPORTER: If you don't
18 mind.
19 BY THE WITNESS: [email protected].
20 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) And I'm sorry to put you
21 under the time constraints, but unfortunately
22 I'm under the same, really worse time
23 constraints. This perhaps could have been
24 answered by Wallace-Bajjali, but they haven't
25 cooperated. It perhaps could have been
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1 answered by Mr. Charlie Kuehn, but he did not
2 cooperate. And probably it may well be that
3 Wallace-Bajjali continues to not cooperate
4 and if that's so then I need to know that.
5 So I think they'll instantly say, oh, yeah,
6 we can do that for you, or they'll say, no,
7 sir. And one of the things you'll know by
8 Friday close of business. That's all I'm
9 asking for. I am going to also ask Mr.
10 Woolston to do the same task so I'm giving
11 you a heads up on that so that maybe you
12 could talk to Mr. Woolston and he will say,
13 oh, I have that information already. Mr.
14 Woolston has given me a list of properties as
15 an exhibit whereby he says, oh, I've only
16 taken one fee out of all this list. I don't
17 know if you've seen that particular list, but
18 he has given me one. And I'm sure he's
19 telling the truth. He's under oath and I
20 have no reason to doubt that he would lie on
21 that issue, so the question really that list
22 may or may not be the exact same as this
23 list. I suspect it is.
24 A. Do you know how many properties are on that
25 list?
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1 Q. I just counted it. I think there were 36.
2 A. So every one on that list is property that
3 Mr. Kuehn bought?
4 Q. No, I wish it was. Some of them are Mr.
5 Kuehn's property, some of them are one of Mr.
6 Kuehn's corporations, some of them are Mr.
7 Woolston's corporations, one of his
8 partnerships, and some of them are else wise.
9 So I don't know. We can certainly get some
10 of these easily.
11 A. Because I have no idea what that number is.
12 Q. And I understand. I fully understand. But
13 this is something that the Council has asked
14 for before. This is not something that I
15 just dreamed up here.
16 A. I'm not saying you did, I just think that's
17 the total list of property that the JRC has
18 bought, but not all the properties on that
19 one location is what I'm trying to say.
20 Q. And that's probably true, yeah.
21 A. I think it is.
22 Q. Yeah, and I think Woolston was probably more
23 interested in a certain location than he was
24 generally all this property, but I don't know
25 that. I'm speculating. But in any case now
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1 I think we can leave this topic for right
2 now. I'll get you a copy of this before you
3 get out of here today.
4 (Transcript of Sworn Statement above emailed to
5 witness at the request of Mr. Loraine)
6 (Sworn Statement Continued)
7 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Now let's go to another
8 topic, if I may. It's my understanding that
9 Wallace-Bajjali, some due diligence was done
10 on their corporation or company and I think
11 it was done by Mr. Woolston.
12 A. No, there were two separate fronts that were
13 investigated, if that's the right term.
14 There was a field trip that certain
15 individuals from the Cart Committee went on
16 and I think one of the Council members, Ms.
17 Rainey went, and actually went to Texas to
18 look at some of their work. And then I
19 spearheaded and did probably most of the work
20 via phone on investigating them that way,
21 calling different City Managers that they had
22 projects in their town performed by
23 Wallace-Bajjali and doing some other things.
24 I wasn't the only one that made those calls,
25 but I was spearheading that portion of the
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1 effort which brought it altogether which was
2 then reported to City Council.
3 Q. Are you telling me that Mr. Woolston did not
4 do any of that due diligence?
5 A. He may - I don't recall for sure. He didn't
6 go on the trip, but he may have made some
7 phone calls but I did the lion's share of the
8 phone calls.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I couldn't even profit you a percentage on
11 that. I don't know who did what level.
12 Q. And to the extent that we have a Chapter 353
13 Corporation whose idea was that?
14 A. To?
15 Q. To form the 353 Corporation.
16 A. All that predates me, sir. That's a
17 mechanism from years ago that assists the
18 City in redevelopment and it's established or
19 the legislation is passed by the state which
20 entitles the City to do that. I don't
21 remember when it was first done, but it was
22 before my time.
23 Q. Well, I understand what a 353 Corporation is.
24 A. I don't want to condemn you, I'm just --
25 Q. My question is, how did we decide, we being
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1 Joplin, to use this particular entity of that
2 statutory authority in this case to rebuy
3 land?
4 A. Well, based on my recollection I think that
5 Brian and Rob O'Brien probably have the most
6 experience with it and found out was the best
7 mechanism by which to do this.
8 Q. So it was Brian Head and who?
9 A. Rob O'Brien who is the chairman or the
10 President of the Chamber. The Chamber does
11 the City's economic development function for
12 us.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. That's what I think. I don't know that
15 beyond a shadow of a doubt. It wouldn't have
16 been me because I wasn't aware of the
17 capabilities of the 353 Corporation. That's
18 something that's unique to Missouri.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. And it's been dormant since I've been here.
21 Relatively dormant.
22 Q. And once again that would be pretty much a
23 legal decision?
24 A. I'm confident Brian had input. I don't know
25 that Brian actually made the decision, but I
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1 think Rob also had input. And I was probably
2 involved in those conversations, but I don't
3 have the level of experience and expertise in
4 the 353 to have determined that on my own.
5 Q. All right. Was there any outside lawyer that
6 assisted in the 353 formation or in the 353
7 process to the best of your knowledge?
8 A. I don't know about its inception because I
9 wasn't here. We've had other attorneys
10 involved at various points in this. I don't
11 know if Brian consulted others in us making
12 that determination or not. I don't know,
13 you'd have to ask him.
14 Q. That's a Brian question then?
15 A. He would know better than I would.
16 Q. All right. Now did Wallace-Bajjali
17 participate to your knowledge in selecting
18 the 353 avenue?
19 A. I don't think so.
20 Q. They're a Dallas company.
21 A. No, they're out of Houston.
22 Q. Okay. Houston.
23 A. But they approached the City early on, I
24 think I described this in my earlier
25 testimony, they were having dinner with one
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1 of the Crossland boys the night the tornado
2 struck and that's how they found out about
3 Joplin and Joplin's situation. They had come
4 to town prior to us going through the RFQ
5 process and we had had some discussions with
6 them, but we went through a formal process at
7 Brian's request to solicit proposals from
8 other companies. And then the Cart Committee
9 vetted all those proposals and scored them
10 and then made a recommendation to City
11 Council and that's when the recommendations
12 or the investigations, if you will, over the
13 phone and the visits took place. That was
14 all conveyed to Council and they made their
15 decision based on the tally of that
16 information.
17 Q. And over what period of time did that
18 develop, if you can give me insight on that?
19 A. I would think - they came to visit before we
20 started the process. In terms of the actual
21 RFP process or Q process probably three
22 months.
23 Q. So pretty close to the date of the tornado?
24 A. Well, I don't remember exactly when it was.
25 It was quite a few months after that, but it
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1 wasn't right after that.
2 Q. Okay. As you sit now I understand that the
3 independent baseball idea, the baseball team,
4 is going forward. Is that a correct
5 statement?
6 A. Yes, sir, there's one more document that has
7 to be formalized and approved in order to be
8 finalized. Obviously the development itself
9 to occur, also, but there's one more step in
10 the process with City Council.
11 Q. It is now with the City Council?
12 A. It hasn't been presented to them. I think
13 Brian is working on drafting that and then it
14 will be presented to Council.
15 Q. Is that now going to be a Wallace-Bajjali
16 project?
17 A. No, sir, they have nothing to do with it.
18 Q. And why do they not have anything to do with
19 it?
20 A. Really wasn't one of their projects. They
21 had suggested as part of the 800 million
22 dollar's worth of projects a multi-purpose
23 facility which is government lingo for a
24 baseball stadium that could be used for a lot
25 of different things to defray the cost of the
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1 expense of it, but this is outside the EER
2 and this is developed and enhancement of an
3 existing stadium so it's not really one of
4 their projects. So it's different than a
5 brand new stadium, it's rehabbing an old
6 stadium that's been in existence for a
7 hundred years for that purpose. Does that
8 make sense?
9 Q. How then did this property come to the City?
10 A. The minor league baseball project?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Mr. Cotten brought it to our attention. He
13 made contact. I asked him that a couple of
14 weeks ago. I believe he called someone from
15 Kansas City T-Bones and was just running the
16 tryouts trying to make something happen and
17 became aware of the El Paso franchise looking
18 for a new home and he made the call to them
19 and got them interested. And then he brought
20 them to me and then together we sat down, and
21 Brian had some role in it, and figured up the
22 financing on the City's end. Negotiated the
23 deal, figured up the financing, and started
24 developing the documents that we have to
25 present to Council.
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1 Q. So that was developed within the City itself
2 from staff?
3 A. Yes, and as a matter of fact there's more
4 recently, I don't know how close you track
5 the local paper, --
6 Q. I don't.
7 A. -- the gentleman that's the league of the
8 developing group for minor league baseball
9 Mr. Wallace had had some past dealings with,
10 didn't leave them on the best terms, and that
11 was an article that appeared I think a week
12 ago Sunday in the paper.
13 Q. Independent baseball club and Wallace didn't
14 want it?
15 A. It wasn't necessarily the club, it was the
16 guy that was teaming with the team for the
17 development. There was going to be a
18 development aspect outside the stadium and
19 outside the team itself.
20 Q. This is this Robby Joe Stadium or whatever it
21 is?
22 A. Joe Becker Stadium.
23 Q. Joe Becker. That's the one where Mickey
24 Mantle played?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. What's Mr. Cotten's position with the City?
2 A. Parks and Recreation Director.
3 Q. Mr. Cotten, is that a department head?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. So he would be directly supervised by you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And I think that you said he was running the
8 tryouts. I think what that means to me is he
9 would just --
10 A. Trying to make something happen.
11 Q. Try to make something happen. That's a good
12 thing, isn't it?
13 A. Yeah, I think I know where you're going with
14 this and I've got an explanation.
15 Q. Tell me what I'm doing then.
16 A. Well, you said something when we left, and I
17 may be wrong, but I think I know what you're
18 doing. I can like I said explain it. You
19 said something in our last discussion which
20 prompted me to go back and I asked for a copy
21 of a letter that I had sent Chris and asked
22 my assistant who wrote the letter to call
23 them back up because I was stimulated to do
24 so by our conversation. And I read it and it
25 had to do with him being taken to task for
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1 being involved in the minor league baseball
2 effort.
3 Q. Who took him to task?
4 A. I signed the letter. I didn't write the
5 letter.
6 Q. You signed the letter against Mr. Cotten?
7 A. Yes, it was more of a - and the thing of it
8 was it wasn't the only issue. I don't
9 remember how actually it was worded. I
10 didn't write it, I just signed it.
11 Q. Who wrote the letter?
12 A. My assistant. My assistant, Sam Anselm, but
13 I signed it so in a sense it was my letter.
14 Q. Sam works for you?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Does he directly work for you?
17 A. Yes, but Chris - the letter was the tip of
18 the iceberg with respect to some issues that
19 Chris had. He's a good employee and I'm not
20 trying to impede that in any way, it's just
21 that he sometimes gets ahead of me on
22 different projects and talks with the Parks
23 and Rec board and other people all in good
24 spirit and all in the interest of moving the
25 City ahead, but sometimes gets ahead of us
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1 which causes some problems. So the essence
2 of the note might have been slow down on this
3 particular project, but it was indicative of
4 a larger problem that we've had with Chris
5 that since he curbed.
6 Q. What is the larger problem?
7 A. That he sometimes gets out in front too far
8 and creates a little bit of a problem. It
9 wasn't anything to do with Wallace-Bajjali,
10 although I may have received a complaint, I
11 got a couple of complaints about him having
12 done that. I don't even remember where it
13 came from, but one of them could have been
14 from Wallace-Bajjali.
15 Q. What would be the significance of it not
16 being a Wallace-Bajjali project?
17 A. They wouldn't get the fees.
18 Q. What kind of fees would be generated?
19 A. Well, the way the contract is written and
20 what you see there is they had 5.75 percent
21 of property sales and the actual development
22 of the project when it goes forward. So the
23 fact that it is not a Wallace-Bajjali project
24 means that they're not involved financially
25 in the Joe Becker Stadium project.
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1 Q. So how much is the Joe Becker Stadium
2 renovating --
3 A. It's not that much. We think it's going to
4 be 4 million for the City and the secondary
5 type of development that the team will
6 advance is probably in the neighborhood of 4
7 to 6, somewhere in there.
8 Q. So we're looking at 4 plus 6.
9 A. 10.
10 Q. 10 million?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. And Wallace-Bajjali would be then getting 5
13 point something percent of that?
14 A. If it were their project in theory. But it's
15 not. It's outside the storm zone.
16 Q. What's the math there, a million some odd?
17 A. Probably, what, $57,000.00 on the million so
18 $570,000.00 probably.
19 Q. Half million dollars?
20 A. Yeah, probably. Off the top of my head, I
21 mean.
22 Q. I understand neither one of us have a
23 computer.
24 A. Sure. Chris is a good employee. I want it
25 to be on the record. It's just that
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1 sometimes in his efforts to hustle and get
2 some things done he gets a little far out in
3 front and I've got to pull him back and that
4 was the purpose of the letter.
5 Q. The letter that you're making reference to
6 would be put in his personnel file?
7 A. Personnel file, yeah.
8 Q. So are you now going to write him one and say
9 thank you for saving the City a half million
10 dollars?
11 A. Well, actually if their project would have
12 gone forward it would be even more than that.
13
14 Q. It would be more than that?
15 A. Building a new stadium you're talking 30 to
16 50 million bucks.
17 Q. So now you're going to write him a thank you
18 letter for his --
19 A. I hadn't thought about it.
20 Q. Well, maybe you should do that, Mr. Rohr.
21 A. Maybe I should.
22 Q. Yeah, maybe you should.
23 A. But once again I'm calling attention to the
24 fact that was just indicative of some of the
25 problems that --
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1 Q. I understand that's your position.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. If you want to supplement by Friday all the
6 things that you didn't like about Chris --
7 A. It's not I don't --
8 Q. No, I'm serious about this. Now if you have
9 an explanation that you just have tendered me
10 I'd like to have it in writing. So if you
11 want to write all the things down that you
12 had in mind when you signed that letter
13 perhaps you should do that.
14 A. If it's important I guess I could.
15 Q. Well, maybe you should then. It's up to you
16 to decide whether it's important or not, but
17 you've brought the issue up and I'm
18 interested in it now, okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Are there any other things that we should
21 talk about that? Because this is my final
22 time to talk to you before I have to write a
23 report and is there anything else that comes
24 to your mind?
25 A. I mean it wasn't my thought because I sat
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1 through the Council discussions that I was
2 the target of the investigation. I have
3 heard through the grapevine that you talked
4 to some people in the Public Works
5 Department. We had a huge issue in the
6 Public Works Department that we had to deal
7 with last July involving some mismanagement
8 and I think you just need to be aware that
9 there's other issues associated with that if
10 you're forming any judgments based on that.
11 And probably two of the people that I've
12 heard talked to you, don't know for sure,
13 just second and third hand, are people that
14 would have been terminated or were on the
15 verge of termination as a result of that.
16 Q. Who would those people be?
17 A. Mr. Cope and Mr. Schaller. And Mr. Schaller
18 had another issue prior to that whole Public
19 Works investigation going on that I had to
20 address and did address and that's when his
21 perspective changed on things and it got
22 worse over time, and he did some other things
23 that were in my mind poor decisions. So Mr.
24 Cope already had a disciplinary hearing that
25 was set that would have dealt with his role
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1 in the mismanagement of the Public Works
2 Department and that had been established when
3 he resigned. I think he knew what was
4 coming. And Mr. Schaller had some other
5 issues going on and he was upset that he was
6 not appointed as Acting Public Works Director
7 and I think that has affected his decision
8 making.
9 Q. And who have you talked with about all this?
10 A. No, I just ruminated in my mind that you
11 wanted to talk to me and I had heard that
12 they had talked to you so
13 I --
14 Q. Who had you heard I had talked to about it?
15 A. I heard that they spoke to you and that there
16 may have been some other people in the Public
17 Works Department that spoke to you.
18 Q. Who told you that?
19 A. I don't even know. I mean there's a rumor
20 going around.
21 Q. Yeah. Well, who did you hear the rumor from?
22 A. I don't even remember, sir, to be honest with
23 you. I've heard it on a number of occasions
24 and --
25 Q. And now you think according to you that
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1 you're the target of the investigation?
2 A. No, I don't know that I am, but I know that
3 when Council formalized the things that they
4 wanted whomever, which ended up being you
5 look into, didn't have anything to do with me
6 other than the post-it note, other than
7 someone took the post-it note from my office.
8 That's all I'm trying to say.
9 Q. Okay. Anything else that we should talk
10 about?
11 A. I don't know. I would ask that you would ask
12 me if there's something on your mind I'd be
13 more than willing to address it.
14 Q. Yeah, I think we've talked about the things
15 that I was concerned with.
16 A. I don't know what you're thinking so it's
17 hard for me to bring up things because I
18 don't know what you're thinking.
19 Q. Well, I have to say on something like this
20 Cotten thing you brought up, if there is
21 something that I need to know about Mr.
22 Cotten I would like to see that.
23 A. He's a good employee. He just gets
24 aggressive sometimes, overaggressive
25 sometimes and creates some problems and it's
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1 my job to pull him back in. And I can
2 understand after reading that letter after we
3 spoke the first time how that could get
4 misconstrued. That wasn't the intention, it
5 didn't have anything to do with trying to
6 feather Wallace-Bajjali's nest at all.
7 Q. I'm sure it didn't. And let's just be frank
8 about this. Are there any fees going from
9 Wallace-Bajjali to you in any way?
10 A. No, sir, not a penny.
11 Q. And are there any promises?
12 A. Not at all.
13 Q. And are you now satisfied with
14 Wallace-Bajjali? When I say satisfied we're
15 two years into a contract and --
16 A. I'm like everyone else, I'd like to see some
17 dirt moving and some bricks being laid, but
18 you know, I understand that there's reasons
19 for that and it's my job to work through
20 those reasons and make sure it happens.
21 Q. Their contract, is there a time schedule for
22 them to reasonably respond? I don't know how
23 better to ask that question.
24 A. No, I know what you're saying. I don't
25 remember if there's a deadline in that
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1 contract. Brian drew that portion up. I
2 don't think there is, but there's no benefit
3 for them delaying. I mean they make that fee
4 once those projects go forward. On the real
5 estate fee they're paying that back when they
6 buy the property, so they're not here to sell
7 property and then to buy it back adding in
8 the other costs, they're here to develop a
9 project. So I think legitimately in my mind
10 they want to see those projects advance. Are
11 they going as fast as I'd like? Probably
12 not. But again that's my job to work with
13 them to expedite it as much as we can.
14 Q. Okay. To the extent that they buy the costs
15 back regardless of what it is in here, you
16 know, that's just their basis that's on?
17 A. Can you say that again?
18 Q. To the extent that they buy this property
19 back --
20 A. They're not making anything because they're
21 paying their own fee back as part of the
22 acquisition fee.
23 Q. And that then becomes their basis in the
24 project?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Okay. Whatever went on before that, who made
2 what money, is of no consequence to them at
3 this point? Are you with me? That's a
4 question. I know it didn't sound like one.
5 A. Can you go over that again so I understand?
6 Q. Yes. Whatever Mr. Kuehn or one of his
7 corporations or one of the other people, when
8 they bought it from Joe Schmo, the little
9 landowner, okay, and they bought it for
10 $100.00 and they sold it to Wallace-Bajjali
11 for $200.00 they made $100.00?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And that would become part of the basis when
14 Wallace-Bajjali buys it back?
15 A. That's my understanding.
16 Q. And that's the question I guess I want to
17 know is how much did all these little
18 entities make and that was what I had asked
19 you to determine if you can by Friday. Do you
20 see why I'm interested in that?
21 A. Sure, I understand.
22 Q. Because this is not a bowl brush here.
23 That's not the purpose of redeveloping.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. And we're not interested in certain people
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1 getting rich over other people. We have no
2 interest in that.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And so now we want to know if that did occur,
5 and if it did occur we want to know to what
6 extent it occurred, okay?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. I appreciate you coming in here on short
9 notice like this because for me I wasn't even
10 planning on being here, but there was no way
11 to get these numbers that I'm seeking other
12 than go to the man. Right now you're the man
13 and I don't know of anybody else that can
14 marshal these assets and contacts and come up
15 with this information. Now I will be asking
16 Woolston the same thing, and some of them he
17 would be able to give us probably instantly
18 anything he was involved in, but he may not
19 want to, you know. And he's really not a
20 City employee, you know.
21 A. Sure.
22 Q. May not be in his best interest to do so.
23 A. Sure. I don't know.
24 Q. Yeah, I don't know either.
25 A. He's told me the same thing he told you about
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1 the one property.
2 Q. Yeah, and I believe that.
3 A. I believe that. He's always been honest with
4 me.
5 Q. I don't have any reason to disbelieve that,
6 but it does seem to me that there certainly
7 have been people in there telling me that the
8 prices of the property have been multiplied
9 by 200 percent and 300 percent. Now those
10 are people that probably don't know what
11 they're talking about, but I don't know,
12 maybe they do. And if they do know what
13 they're talking about and if the City Council
14 wants to know that it seemed wise for me to
15 have an answer to that.
16 A. Well, I appreciate you wanting the report on
17 verifiable information, not rumored innuendo.
18 Q. That's exactly what I want.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And really there is no one else. You're it.
21 So if you can't come through with this I
22 would be disappointed and I would like to
23 have that information irregardless, if that's
24 a word, I would like to have that
25 information, but if we don't have it, we
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1 don't have it. We tried. And that's where
2 I'm at.
3 A. Okay. If I can have that information --
4 Q. I think that's the most important key thing
5 that we need to determine at this point and
6 kind of go from there.
7 A. Okay.
8 (Off record discussion with Mr. Loraine and court
9 reporter)
10 A. And I intend to write Chris a letter. I will
11 not back off his needs, make sure that he
12 clears certain things with me and doesn't get
13 too far out in front of me, but I can
14 understand in light of how things have
15 developed how that specific reference in that
16 other letter to Wallace-Bajjali could be
17 misconstrued and that's not fair to him.
18 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) It is not.
19 A. I understand. I try to be fair and probably
20 what happened was I conveyed to Sam the
21 overall general concern based on the fact
22 that this just happened and I didn't read the
23 letter closely enough and it wasn't as
24 expansive as it needed to be. He still has
25 that issue at times, but he's also a good
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1 employee and he also gets things done and
2 that's what it's all about.
3 Q. I would think, you know, just my guess, I
4 mean if I were you I would be happy if
5 somebody got some dirt turned.
6 A. That's what we're working on.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you for coming in, sir.
8
9 (SWORN STATEMENT ADJOURNED)
10
11
12
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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
STATE OF MISSOURI
ss.
COUNTY OF JASPER
I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the
State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the
foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the
28th day of January, 2014, was duly sworn by me, and was
examined. That examination was then taken by me by
steno-mask recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn
Statement is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set
out on the day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith
returned.
I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or
relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of
either party or of the attorney of either party, or
otherwise interested in the event of this suit.
________________________
SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650