Regional Oral History Office Universi ty of Ca l i fo rn ia The Bancroft Library Berkeley, Ca l i fo rn ia

Cal i forn ia Women P o l i t i c a l Leaders S e r i e s

Hulda Hoover McLean

A CONSERVATIVE'S CRUSADES FOR GOOD GOVERNMENT

With an In t roduct ion by Margaret Koch

An Interview Conducted by Gabr ie l l e Morris

Copy No.

@ 1977 by The Regents of the Universi ty of Ca l i fo rn ia

A l l uses of t h i s manuscript a r e covered by a l e g a l agreement between t h e Regents of t h e Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a and Hulda Hoover McLean dated December 12 , 1976. The manuscript is thereby made a v a i l a b l e f o r r e sea rch purposes. A l l l i t e r a r y r i g h t s i n t h e manuscript , inc luding t h e r i g h t t o publ i sh , a r e reserved t o The Bancroft L ibrary of t h e Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a Berkeley. No p a r t of t h e manuscript may be quoted f o r p u b l i c a t i o n without t h e w r i t t e n permission of t h e Di rec to r of t h e Bancroft L ib ra ry of t h e Un ive r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley.

Requests f o r permission t o quote f o r p u b l i c a t i o n should be addressed t o t h e Regional Ora l H i s to ry Of f i ce , 486 L ib ra ry , and should inc lude i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of t h e s p e c i f i c passages t o be quoted, a n t i c i p a t e d u s e of t h e passages, and i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of t h e use r .

TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Hulda Hoover McLean

PREFACE

INTRODUCTION by Margaret Koch

INTERVIEW HISTORY v i i i

I FAMILY AND CHILDHOOD Hoover B r o t h e r s : F a t h e r and Uncle E x p e c t a t i o n s of S e r v i c e and Educa t ion London Years

I1 EDUCATION AND MARRIAGE S t a n f o r d and McGill U n i v e r s i t i e s C h a r l e s McLean and H i s P a r e n t s J o b s and Babies and t h e Grea t Depress ion

I11 LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, 1936-1943 S t a t e C i v i l S e r v i c e Study and Act ion P e r s o n a l Observa t ion of R e l i e f Agencies Pasadena: t h e C i t y Manager and t h e P o l i c e Department On Being S t a t e P r e s i d e n t

IV RETURN TO SANTA CRUZ COUNTY Farm Bureau A c t i v i t i e s A g r i c u l t u r a l L e g i s l a t i v e I n t e r e s t s H e a l t h S e r v i c e s and Community O r g a n i z a t i o n

V ELECTION TO THE COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS, 1956 Family Management and Dec i s ion t o Run f o r O f f i c e P r e l i m i n a r y S k i r m i s h e s , 1950-5 S u c c e s s f u l Campaign O r g a n i z a t i o n Candida tes ' Meet ings , F i n a n c e , P u b l i c i t y

V I FIRST TERM AS A SUPERVISOR, 1956-1958 Fe l low S u p e r v i s o r s and Some Opponents Accomplishments and County Government Shortcomings Informing C o n s t i t u e n t s ; Times f o r C o n f i d e n t i a l i t y Audiences a t S u p e r v i s o r s ' Meetings and Other Pub1 i c Contac t S t a f f and Volun tee r Help Record f o r Re-Elec t ion i n 1958 Hazards of P u b l i c L i f e and Some Advantages of Being a Woman

V I I RECOLLECTIONS AND INFLUENCE OF HERBERT HOOVER P o l i t i c a l Campaigns and Republican P r i n c i p l e s Closeness of t he Hoover Family Dealing wi th Personal Abuse

V I I I PERSONAL RESPONSES TO POLITICAL PROCESSES AND PRESSURES Misrepresenta t ion , No Simple Solu t ion Board Hearings and Flower Drawings Unique Approaches t o Re-elect ion: No Fund-rais ing and No

Campaigning S t a t e L e g i s l a t o r s , Women Candidates

9 0 90 9 2

94 97

IX WORKING WITH BOARD MEMBERS AND COUNTY STAFF Planning and Zoning Progress A t t i t u d e s Toward a Woman Supervisor Legal R e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s of Supervisors and Department Heads Help from the County Supervisors Assoc ia t ion of C a l i f o r n i a County Administrator and General P l an

(CSAC)

100 100 102 106 109 110

X ESTABLISHING A UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA CAMPUS AT SANTA CRUZ 112

X I COMPLEXITY OF COUNTY HEALTH AND WELFARE PROGRAMS Welfare Adminis t ra t ion and Ef fec t iveness Human Aspects of Land Use P lans Role of Advisory Committees Improving Heal th Serv ices

Needs of Farmworkers and t h e Aged Farm Bureau Rural Heal th Department

X I 1 OTHER GOVERNMENTAL AND POLITICAL ISSUES Women's E f f o r t s f o r Probat ion Serv ices Juven i l e H a l l Controversy Water and Highway Decisions E lec t ion Defea t , 1962

X I 1 1 CONCLUDING THOUGHTS On Fellow Supervisors and Workloads Women i n P o l i t i c s i n 1976 Rewards of P o l i t i c a l L i f e Local Control of Government and National P roduc t iv i ty Busy Retirement: Research, Wri t ing , Pa in t ing , and Family

152 15 2 155 15 7 158 161

APPENDIX: (Mater ia l s i n The Bancroft L ib ra ry ) A. E l e c t i o n m a t e r i a l s , 1956 and 1958: Biographical ske t ch ,

information f o r e l e c t i o n workers, l e t t e r s t o suppor t e r s .

B. Santa Cruz County Farm Bureau news, c l i p p i n g s December,

1958; January, 1959.

C. L e t t e r s t o Cons t i t uen t s D. Your County Government. Some no te s on Santa Cruz County

government. Hulda Hoover McLean, January, 1963. (Contents , P re face , Fac t s and F igures on Santa Cruz County, In t roduc t ion )

E . Uncle B e r t , A Biographica l P o r t r a i t of Herbert Hoover, Hulda Hoover McLean, The Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n P r e s s , 1974.

INDEX

INTRODUCTION

A woman f o r a l l seasons--a Renaissance woman? These terms might be applied t o Hulda Hoover McLean. Her i n t e r e s t s span subjec ts ranging prom p o l i t i c s t o r a t t l e snakes , from women's r i g h t s t o crocheting.

The f i r s t time I interviewed Hulda we discussed county p o l i t i c s , then the hea l th mer i t s of s tanding on one 's head. ( I don't--she does.) Hulda recommended the corner a s a l i k e l y spot f o r easy balancing.

The second interview some time l a t e r was a discussion of sea s h e l l s , about which she i s extremely knowledgeable. ( I am not.)

A more recent interview f o r the newspaper fo r which I wr i t e [TheSanta Cruz Sen t ine l ] , concerned a r t .

That was eas ie r . I n the course of our developing f r iendship over the years , Hulda had given me ins t ruc t ions i n watercolor. I say "given1'--perhaps I should say she "forced" me t o take up watercolor.

As f o r p o l i t i c s , she was i n the f r o n t ranks of the s t rugg le f o r women's l i b e r a t i o n long before t h a t term became a household word. In a day when women's organizat ions o f t en paid more heed t o pink t e a p a r t i e s than t o p o l i t i c s , Hulda was one of a handful of women who stood out a s "different ." I n her q u i e t , ye t determined way, she brought the general awareness of any group she was i n , around t o basic issues.

Back i n 1941 she was a busy housewife and mother i n Pasadena, r a i s i n g th ree l i v e l y boys aged 2, 6 , and 1 0 , but she found time t o work as a volunteer with the Pasadena Junior League and t o serve a s s t a t e pres ident of the League of Women Voters.

"How d i d you manage?" she once was asked.

'!My d i f f i c u l t son was i n school and I took the youngest son with me. He was a very good chi ld ," she sa id .

The o ldes t boy a l s o was i n school. So Hulda, with a 2-year-old under one arm and a su i t case f u l l of r epor t s and pamphlets i n her hand, made the s t a t e rounds on t r a i n s and buses.

"I had l o t s of company," she r e c a l l s . "This was i n 1941 and 1942 and t h e r e were many young wives of servicemen with t h e i r babies."

She d id make some t r i p s by au to , d r i v i n g the family ca r . When, one day, i t sput te red t o a s top and refused t o go, she made the unhappy d iscovery t h a t t h e " d i f f i c u l t " son had t r i c k l e d a handful of chicken feed i n t o the gas tank.

"I found t h a t a b i cyc le pump would c l e a r the gas l i n e , so I ca r r i ed one. When t h e c a r stopped, I merely got out and s t a r t e d pumping vigorously wi th the b i cyc le pump. It worked, but people looked a t me very pecul iar ly."

She ran a t i g h t sh ip a t home; she had t o , with her growing range of o u t s i d e i n t e r q s t s . Her so lu t ions t o problems were usual ly unique, always o r i g i n a l - - l i k e t h e b i cyc le pump.

Once when her boys were no t cooperat ing i n the mat te r of picking up t h e i r c lo th ing when they took it o f f , Hulda grew t i r e d of t e l l i n g them t o do it. Ins tead of more admonitions, she armed h e r s e l f with a hammer and n a i l s and went t o t h e i r untidy rooms. There she proceeded t o n a i l each discarded garment f i rmly t o the f loo r .

The head-standing b i t s t a r t e d when Hulda's family physician advised he r t h a t he r c i r c u l a t i o n was not what it should be.

"I decided t h a t s tanding on my head f o r f i v e minutes each morning would be good f o r it ." She adds t h a t t h e only disadvantage i s t h a t she can see a l l the dus t under t h e f u r n i t u r e and the spools of thread she had dropped.

I n 1943 the McLeans l e f t Southern C a l i f o r n i a t o come l i v e on Rancho d e l Oso i n Santa Cruz County, t he l a r g e proper ty acquired by he r f a t h e r , Theodore J . Hoover, i n 1913.

There, on t h a t i s o l a t e d and moodily b e a u t i f u l s t r e t c h of Northern C a l i f o r n i a coas t , a childhood i n t e r e s t i n n a t u r a l h i s t o r y came back t o l i f e . Hulda co l l ec t ed and s tudied the sea s h e l l s , no t only those of the Rancho beaches, but f o r mi les i n each d i r e c t i o n . She s tudied the p l a n t s , the i n s e c t s , the b i r d s , t h e wild animals and the ecology, keeping records and w r i t i n g a r t i c l e s f o r publ ica t ion . Because of he r i n s e c t s t u d i e s t h e r e is now a course of s tudy a v a i l a b l e t o elementary'school ch i ld ren i n C a l i f o r n i a . Classes o f t e n v i s i t Rancho d e l Oso f o r guided t o u r s by Hulda.

Along wi th the b e a u t i f u l , t h e wild and the f a s c i n a t i n g , t h e r e a r e r a t t l e s n a k e s on the Rancho.

"Rattlesnakes a r e beau t i fu l , " Hulda s t a t e s unequivocally.

This i s one of our points of disagreement.

She kept two young ra t t l e snakes i n a g lass cage i n her p a t i o as p a r t of a na tu ra l h i s t o r y museum f o r her grandsons. One snake got away.

"I do hope he escaped from the p a t i o area ," she commented calmly. "He might ge t stepped on."

When a r a t t l e r i s so unwise as t o get himself k i l l e d on the Rancho (Charles does not share h i s wi fe ' s a f f e c t i o n f o r snakes), Hulda pops him i n t o the f r eeze r f o r eventual hors d 'oeuvres, the recipe fo r which i s i n the family cookbook she has compiled. In a l l f a i r n e s s , I must add t h a t she never serves r a t t l e snake canapes t o people l i k e me who might object!

Hulda's book on North Coast sea s h e l l s was printed i n 1975 a f t e r years of work t h a t a c t u a l l y dated from her childhood i n t e r e s t .

'My c o l l e c t i o n s t a r t e d , a s I suppose most s h e l l co l l ec t ions do, with a handful, then a cupful , then f i n a l l y , boxes of t r easures , " she sa id . "As a l i t t l e g i r l I col lec ted s h e l l s on the beaches i n England. When we came t o the Rancho on vacations during my childhood, I col lec ted there , too."

I n 1959 her s h e l l c o l l e c t i o n was destroyed i n the f i r e t h a t leveled the Hoover family home on the Rancho. Hulda began a t once t o replace her s h e l l s , spending long, wonder f i l l e d hours on cold , windy beaches, bucket i n hand.

"You should do a book," I repeatedly urged, a f t e r she had been descr ib ing changes coming about along the coast . Tide-Drif t She l l s of the Waddell Beaches i s the r e s u l t . A valuable record and reference book, i t i s indexed, and Hulda i l l u s t k a t e d i t with her own pen and ink drawings.

And t h a t br ings us around t o a r t .

We were on a , t r i p together i n Baja Ca l i fo rn ia with our husbands, i n 1968. Hulda, never i d l e , crocheted squares f o r a t ab lec lo th on the t r i p down i n the auto. As we ar r ived a t the various beaches, she got out her co l l ec t ing bucket and went f o r s h e l l s . When the s h e l l - c o l l e c t i n g pal led f o r one reason or another , she got out her watercolors.

"I wish I could do t h a t , " I observed one day, watching her pa in t a p a r t i c u l a r l y fe tching scene.

"Oh, but you can:" she sa id . "Here--take t h i s e x t r a brush and t h i s p i ece of paper and I ' ll share my p a i n t s . I have p l en ty . Now you j u s t ske tch t h e main l i n e s i n very l i g h t l y w i th a p e n c i l ..."

She d i d n ' t give me time t o doubt t h a t I might be a b l e t o do i t . And before I knew i t , I was launched on what would become one of my g r e a t e s t pleasures--watercolor pa in t ing .

Hulda i s an accomplished a r t i s t who, i f she would spend more time a t i t , would ga in much wider r ecogn i t i on f o r he r work.

From re sea rch s t a t i s t i c i a n (1927-1941) t o c i v i c l e a d e r i n Santa Cruz County took Hulda i n t o an o f f i c e t h a t was a t times a f a s c i n a t i n g cha l lenge , and a t o the r t imes , a d r e a d f u l t r i a l . Hulda i s obviously a woman of h igh i n t e l l i g e n c e and c r e a t i v e a b i l i t y . When she ran f o r and won the o f f i c e of County Supervisor of Seaside D i s t r i c t , she was n o t exac t ly welcomed wi th open arms by each of t h e male board members.

I n Santa Cruz County a woman had been superv isor only once before Hulda's v i c t o r y . That woman had stepped i n t o f i l l ou t he r husband's term when he d ied suddenly, then when the term was up she r an and was e l e c t e d . I can remember my g randfa the r , who was born i n Santa Cruz County, saying then t h a t "A woman had no bus iness on the Board of Supervisors." Publ ic opinion was changing when Hulda was e l ec t ed i n 1956, but t he pendulum hadn ' t swung f a r y e t . The world of county p o l i t i c s was s t i l l a man's domain. Women, p a r t i c u l a r l y b r i g h t , a n a l y t i c a l , vocal women, were not r e a l l y welcome.

"Sarcas t ic a r i s t o c r a t " was one newspaper l a b e l pinned on Hulda i n a 1961 f e a t u r e s t o r y , i n s p i t e of t h e f a c t t h a t a fe l low board member had s t a t e d p u b l i c l y t h a t she was a "s teady th inke r , " and " t o t a l l y honest . "

Her hard-eye approach t o county government was termed "arrogance," he r wry humor a s "sarcasm." I fA-shewas f o r t h r i g h t i n h e r speech she was g u i l t y- -.--------- -- -of "poor pub l i c relations.- -

Despi te t hese h u r t f u l accusa t ions , Hulda maintained h e r cool . Once she t o l d a r e p o r t e r jok ingly t h a t "A lady superv isor i s a person who spends too much time f o r no t enough money and has more than t h e usua l quota of h o l e s i n h e r head . ' I

Truth unde r l i e s jokes a t t imes. Hulda spent e ight -hour days a t t he supe rv i so r s ' o f f i c e , longer hours than any of he r fe l low superv isors , then went home t o a d d i t i o n a l s tudy and research . She took on s p e c i a l p r o j e c t s t h a t included a new Juven i l e H a l l , a Community Mental Heal th C l i n i c and c e r t a i n we l f a re reforms. Her e f f o r t s e leva ted he r t o t he o f f i c e of p re s iden t of the C a l i f o r n i a Council of Children and Youth.

In 1958 Hulda was elected t o a second term as supervisor and during the following two years, the new County Governmental Center was b u i l t . It proved t o be another con t rovers i a l i ssue i n a fast-growing county which had j u s t welcomed the Universi ty of Ca l i fo rn ia ' s seventh campus.

Hulda was defeated i n her bid f o r a t h i r d term as supervisor. Knowing her s o we l l , her a b i l i t i e s and i n t e r e s t s , I asked her what she planned t o do.

"Rest," she sa id .

A misleading word, t h a t . I n 1960 she wrote and had published "A Study of the Aid t o Needy Children Program i n Santa Cruz County." She followed t h a t up with "Youth Employment Needs and Opportunit ies i n Santa Cruz County. I ' Most important of a l l was her ana lys i s and repor t of Santa Cruz County government, i t s successes, f a i l u r e s , and shortcomings, with suggestions f o r ways . t o improve them. In more recent years Hulda has s tudied the juvenile delinquency problem and has wr i t t en an in-depth repor t .

Rest? Re t i r e? She hardly knows the meaning of the words.

She took on a p ro jec t of organizing p o l i t i c a l education f o r Farm Bureau i n recent years , a t a sk which took her by plane, over much of Cal i fornia . She enjoyed the work but developed a f e a r of f l y i n g t h a t , I f e a r , w i l l never leave her .

Much of her t r a v e l was done i n small , p r iva te company-type planes-- puddle-jumpers, which landed on postage-stamp runways i n out-of-the way places. Once on a four-passenger plane t h a t "sounded l i k e a broken-down washing machine," the p i l o t announced t h a t the re was something wrong and he was going t o tu rn back. One of the passengers spoke up and said he was a v ice pres ident of the plane company and he HAD t o go on t o t h e i r des t ina t ion .

'We went on," Hulda s a i d , "but I ' m not sure how we made it."

Another time she noticed t h a t the outs ides of a plane 's windows were bathed i n flames.

"Oh, i t ' s nothing but a l i t t l e e x t r a gasoline we're burning o f f , " the p i l o t to ld her.

Hulda says she died severa l times on t h a t t r i p , too. She doesn' t l i k e t o f l y , although we ( the four of us) have traveled a good pa r t of the world together .

Once, when w e faced a long A t l a n t i c f l i g h t t o London, I be l i eved I had t h e s o l u t i o n t o ~ u l d a ' s f e a r of t h e a i r .

"A n i c e , s t i f f , double mar t in i , " I suggested.

Hulda shook h e r head.

I I I would r a t h e r be sober and scared than woozy and scared," she s a i d .

Margaret Koch, s t a f f writer Santa Cruz S e n t i n e l

1 3 January 19 7 7 Santa Cruz, C a l i f o r n i a

INTERVIEW HISTORY

During t h e 1950s, C a l i f o r n i a was f o r t u n a t e i n having a number of a b l e women a c t i v e i n county government, both a s e l ec t ed o f f i c i a l s and a s t op admin i s t r a to r s . I n ask ing Hulda Hoover McLean t o record t h i s account of h e r p o l i t i c a l p a r t i c i p a t i o n i n Santa Cruz County, t h e Regional Ora l H i s to ry was rewarded with i n s i g h t s i n t o t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l i z a t i o n of government s e r v i c e s i n t h e years fol lowing World War I1 and a l s o wi th glimpses of a s t r o n g family t r a d i t i o n of pub l i c s e rv i ce .

Four conversa t ions were recorded i n a two-day pe r iod , May 10-11, 1976, a t Rancho d e l Osos, t h e McLean family home a few mi l e s no r th of t h e r e s o r t c i t y of Santa Cruz. Both b u s i n e s s l i k e and c o r d i a l , M r s . McLean p r e f e r r e d t o complete t h e in te rv iews quickly, and s o s h e i n v i t e d t h e in t e rv i ewer t o s t a y overn ight i n t h e gues t qua r t e r s . These form one s i d e of t h e comfortable s t o n e ranch house b u i l t around a f l ower - f i l l ed p a t i o , looking ac ros s Waddell Canyon and out t o t h e sweep of t h e P a c i f i c Ocean h a l f a mi le away.

A s m a l l woman wi th c l a s s i c f e a t u r e s , M r s . McLean was though t fu l and d i r e c t i n answering ques t ions based on t h e o u t l i n e which had been s e n t ahead t o he lp h e r prepare f o r t h e interview. The t o p i c s covered an a c t i v e l i f e which combined ex tens ive volunteer and s t a f f work along wi th t h e r a i s i n g of t h r e e sons. Assoc ia t ion wi th t h e J u n i o r League, S t a t e Re l i e f Administrat ion, League of Women Voters , and t h e Farm Bureau Federa t ion brought h e r i n t o contac t w i th vary ing l e v e l s of government, bu t accompanying f r u s t r a t i o n s l e d h e r t o dec ide t h a t t h e way t o achieve t h e r e s u l t s s h e considered important was t o be an e l e c t e d o f f i c i a l .

Her accounts of how s h e appl ied h e r o rgan iza t iona l s k i l l s t o becoming a member of t h e Santa Cruz County Board of Superv isors , and of s ee ing many of h e r goa ls f o r good government accomplished during a s ix-year t e n u r e (1956-1962) a r e l i v e l y and informative. Motivat ing h e r e f f o r t s throughout has been a s taunch conserva t ive b e l i e f i n home r u l e , coupled wi th a long understanding of t h e a g r i c u l t u r a l base of t h e economy of t h e county, and an inhe ren t concern f o r farm workers and t h e environment.

M r s . McLean comments a l s o on some of t h e advantages and disadvantages s h e experienced a s a woman i n p o l i t i c a l l i f e , no t ing t h a t during h e r yea r s as supe rv i so r , both t h e ch ief of probat ion and t h e county r eco rde r were women. While encouraging more women t o become a c t i v e i n p o l i t i c s , s h e concludes t h a t p o l i t i c s is a hard p u l l f o r women a g a i n s t cont inuing oppos i t ion and t h a t i t ho lds l e s s a l l u r i n g oppor tun i t i e s f o r women than i t does f o r men.

A valuable bonus f o r s cho la r s a r e Mrs. McLean's occas iona l r e f e rences t o t he advice she sought on knot ty s u p e r v i s o r i a l ques t ions from he r uncle , Herbert Hoover, and h e r observat ions on the p o l i t i c a l c l ima te a t t he end of h i s presidency. The cont inuing importance t o h e r of family t i e s i s ev ident i n h e r long researches i n t o family genealogy and a f f e c t i o n a t e comments on h e r husband, ch i ld ren , and grandchi ldren.

I n a d d i t i o n t o a f u l l c a r e e r i n pub l i c a f f a i r s , Mrs. McLean has devoted cons iderable energy t o personal accomplishments i n p a i n t i n g and w r i t i n g , inc luding a d e t a i l e d handbook on the func t ions of Santa Cruz County government completed a s she went o f f t he Board of Superv isors . Meticulous about d e t a i l , Mrs. McLean has kept ex tens ive f i l e s which i t i s hoped w i l l even tua l ly be a v a i l a b l e t o r e sea rche r s .

Mrs. McLean reviewed the ed i t ed t r a n s c r i p t of t hese in te rv iews , making minor c o r r e c t i o n s , and concurred r e a d i l y w i th t h e sugges t ion t h a t Margaret Koch, f r i e n d and ve teran Santa Cruz j o u r n a l i s t , be i n v i t e d t o w r i t e t h e accompanying in t roduc t ion .

G a b r i e l l e Morris In te rv iewer-Edi tor

11 February 1977 Regional Oral H i s to ry Of f i ce 486 The Bancroft L ib ra ry Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley

I FAMILY AND CHILDHOOD (In terv iew 1: morning, 10 May 1976)

Hoover Brothers: Fa ther and Uncle

[Begin Tape I , s i d e 11

Morris: I f you would, we'd l i k e t o s t a r t wi th something of your family background. Were you born h e r e i n Ca l i fo rn i a?

McLean: Yes, I was born i n Palo Al to on Middlef ield Univers i ty Avenue.

Road j u s t off

Morris : Were you t h e f i r s t in--?

McLean: No, I was t h e middle daughter. A l l g i r l s , t h r e e g i r l s .

Morris: And your f a t h e r was on t h e f a c u l t y a t Stanford?

McLean: He was dean of t h e School of Engineering a t Stanford. wasn ' t then (when I was born) , he was a s tudent .

Well , he

Morris : Your f a t h e r was s t i l l a s tuden t when you were born?

McLean: Yes.

Morris: Was t h a t unusual i n those years?

McLean: I d o n ' t be l i eve so , because you s e e , he was married before he went t o school . I th ink q u i t e a few men had t o wai t u n t i l they were e s t ab l i shed before they could a f ford an education. I d o n ' t t h ink i t was too unusual.

Morris : And had he been working i n mining and then went t o s tudy mining?

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No. He worked a s a l inotype operator--he had worked and helped put h i s b ro the r , Herber t , through Stanford. And then when Herbert got a good job i n London, mining, he wired and s a i d : Now i t ' s your tu rn . So h i s bro ther helped him go through.

Tha t ' s n ice . So i t was the e l d e r bro ther who helped t h e younger bro ther?

My f a t h e r was the e l d e r b ro the r , s o he helped h i s younger bro ther f i r s t , because my f a t h e r had too many r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s - - h e had a s i s t e r dependent on him, and he j u s t couldn ' t t ake of f and go t o school. So, he helped h i s young brother through, and then h i s younger bro ther helped him.

And they were both a t Stanford?

Yes, they both went through Stanford.

Was i t because t h e younger bro ther was a l ready t h e r e t h a t your f a t h e r wanted to- -?

Well, t he re ' d been a good dea l of p rose ly t ing t o ge t s tuden t s . I th ink y o u ' l l f i nd a l l t h a t p r e t t y much w r i t t e n i n Herbert Hoover 's autobiography and i n Theodore Hoover 's autobiography, why they went t o S tanford , and t h e i r Stanford career .* They were t h e r e when Stanford s t a r t e d and then helped bui ld i t , bui ld the student-body t r a d i t i o n s and organiza t ion . They were prominent s tuden t s .

Themselves, i n add i t ion t o having a p a r t i n s t a r t i n g the school. Tha t ' s an i n t e r e s t i n g combination. And a l s o c lose a s a family, a s b ro the r s?

Oh yes , very c lose . You see , they 'd been orphaned; the t h r e e ch i ld ren had been orphaned when they were very young and separated t o d i f f e r e n t f a m i l i e s but always yearning t o ge t together--and f i n a l l y they d id .

A s young men, when they s t a r t e d t h e i r own fami l i e s?

Wemoranda, unpublished memoirs of Theodore Hoover. Memoirs Vol. 1, Herbert Hoover.

McLean: Yes. When my f a t h e r could suppor t - - t h i s i s a l l i n t h e autobiog- r aph ie s of those two men, which, a r e f a s c i n a t i n g documents and which--one, of course , Herbert Hoover I s , i s publ ished. I t ' s t h e f i r s t volume of h i s memoirs. And Theodore Hoover's i s a v a i l a b l e a t t h e Un ive r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a a t Santa Cruz and a t t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n a t Stanford.

Morr is : Was your mother a C a l i f o r n i a g i r l ?

McLean: No, they were from Iowa, my f a t h e r and mother. a t tended S tanford f o r a l i t t l e while.

And she a l s o

Morris : Before she s t a r t e d having--

McLean: Before she s t a r t e d having c h i l d r e n , yes . She had taught school . She had been t o c o l l e g e i n Iowa (what would be a normal school) and had taught school , and came out h e r e and I th ink probably did no more than take a few c l a s s e s a t S tanford .

Morr is : And then had you t h r e e g i r l s ?

McLean: Yes.

Morr i s : Were your p a r e n t s involved i n c i v i c a f f a i r s o t h e r than g e t t i n g t h e Un ive r s i t y under way?

McLean: I imagine they were, but I d o n ' t know about it. They may have been t o o busy s tudying and making a l i v i n g . But they were t h e type of people t h a t always would be involved i n whatever was going on.

Morr i s : I came a c r o s s a no te that--was i t your grandmother Hoover who was a m i n i s t e r i n t h e Soc ie ty of F r i ends?

McLean: Yes. Hulda Minthorn Hoover. She died when my f a t h e r was ten--no, I guess Herber t was t e n and my f a t h e r was about twelve o r t h i r t e e n . And th ink ing about why I grew up wi th no consciousness t h a t g i r l s were i n f e r i o r t o boys [ l augh ing ] , I t h i n k i t ' s a f a c t t h a t my f a t h e r worshipped h i s mother and t h a t she was, you know, a community l e a d e r , and a l s o t h a t my mother was s o wel l -educated, capable , and such an ou ts tanding woman, t h a t u n t i l I went i n t o t h e world, I d i d n ' t r e a l i z e t h e r e was a disadvantage t o being a g i r l . [Laughs]

Morr is : Did t h e Quaker t r a d i t i o n keep on a s t h e fami ly r e l i g i o n ?

McLean: It did i n a way. My family were reverent but not r e l ig ious . I ' m sure one cou1.d c a l l them free- th inkers . I asked once whether my f a t h e r believed i n God and i n heaven and i n immortality, and he sa id : I t r y to .

Morris: That ' s a very i n t e r e s t i n g comment.

I wondered about the Quaker t r a d i t i o n , s ince I gather the American Friends Service Committee has been a very a c t i v e organizat ion i n the Palo Alto area.

McLean: The Quaker r e l i g i o n has changed so very much i n recent years , t h a t I myself haven' t been able t o s t a y w i t h - - i t s organizat ion o r lack of organizat ion. Now, the things they do f o r other people, the Fr iends ' committees abroad and th ings l i k e t h a t , a r e i n the h i s t o r i c t r a d i t i o n . Any local group meets informally--one of the t ene t s of the Quaker r e l ig ion i s t h a t the voice ins ide you w i l l t e l l you what 's r i g h t and what 's wrong; you don ' t need somebody e l s e . And s o there i s t h i s s i l e n t worship and anybody can t a l k when they think they have something they should say. That leaves t h a t group e n t i r e l y vulnerable t o anyone who wants t o come i n from the outs ide and take it over.

Morris: This i s i n the a c t u a l meeting process?

McLean: Yes. I would say the people a r e genera l iza t ion c e r t a i n l y , a wild

good and naive--now genera l iza t ion .

t h a t ' s a

Morris: I see the d i s t i n c t i o n .

McLean: So the various meetings t h a t I have t r i e d i n recent years have been so kooky [laughing] because of t h i s , t h a t I joined the Congregational Church, which I th ink i s nearer the Quaker than the Quaker i s . Although, t h i s too is a genera l iza t ion , because I know there must s t i l l be hundreds of Quaker meetings t h a t follow the Quaker t r a d i t i o n s .

I wrote my uncle about t h i s (my f a t h e r was dead), sa id : I j u s t c a n ' t be a Quaker anymore.

and I

He sa id : That ' s qu i t e a l l r i g h t ; none of us can except Peggy Ann (who l i v e s i n Boston or somewhere where they ' re r e a l l y Quakers).

McLe an : So we j u s t a t tend my f a t h e r ' s f e e l i n g s :

t h e Congregational Church, I t r y to .

and I share

Morris: Were you and your s i s t e r s involved youngsters growing up?

i n church a c t i v i t i e s a s

McLean: Not i n Quaker a c t i v i t i e s , because i n Palo Al to a t t h a t time t h e r e were none. We went t o the Sunday schools of our choice, whichever our bes t f r i e n d s went t o , and Sunday school a c t i v i t i e s .

Expectat ions of Service and Education

Morris: You sa id t h a t i t wasn ' t u n t i l you got out i n the world t h a t you r e a l i z e d t h e r e were d i f f e r e n c e s i n how other people ra i sed g i r l s , d i f f e r e n c e s between g i r l s and boys. How did your parents t r e a t you g i r l s ?

McLean: Well, we were j u s t people. We were supposed t o be good people-- I th ink maybe it was s o r t of noblesse obl ige , t h a t we were people wi th i n t e l l i g e n c e and proper ty and h e a l t h , and t h a t we were he re t o see what we could do t o h e l p the world.

Morris : Did and

they then expect t h a t each of i n t e r e s t s of your own?

you g i r l s would have c a r e e r s

McLean: I was never conscious of any expecta t ion of you do t h i s or t h a t . We grew up knowing we were going t o co l lege . It was j u s t what people d id . My youngest s i s t e r got married very young ins t ead . My family sa id : I t ' s too bad s h e ' s cu t of f h e r oppor tun i t i e s , but maybe ,she1l l f i n d s a t i s f a c t i o n i n what she has . My older s i s t e r went almost through co l l ege and got married. I got married a s a freshman but we kept on i n co l l ege and got our degrees.

Morris : Was the idea i n those days t h a t marriage and o ther a c t i v i t i e s ?

i t was not poss ib l e t o combine

McLean: No. Because when I got married I j u s t continued i n co l lege . Although the idea was t h a t when you got married you cut yourself of f from family suppor t ; you earned your l i v i n g then. And t h a t was j u s t an accepted p a r t . Now I th ink: How s t r ange , because wi th my own boys, I know they weren ' t ready t o earn t h e i r own l i v i n g s when they got married. We s t i l l helped them u n t i l they

McLean: were soundly on t h e i r changed too; i t takes

f e e t . But I th ink maybe the world has longer f o r economic independence.

Morris: How did you and your husband go about supporting yourselves; did you accept t h i s t r a d i t i o n of no family support?

McLean : Absolutely. We got jobs and we went t o col lege as well a s we could. Then, i n about a year , my aunt , Mrs. Herbert Hoover--I got very ill because I did work too hard--and she sa id : You mustn't continue working s o hard, and I ' m going t o lend you the money t o go through school.

So we f in ished school e a s i l y , and then when we s t a r t e d t o pay her back, she sa id : The way t o pay me back i s t o do the same f o r somebody e l s e .

Morris : That ' s a Quaker kind of concept, i s n ' t i t ?

McL e an : There was very much of the Quaker concept i n the whole family. I mean they were j u s t inbred, engrained Quakers. You have a 11concern" about something, which i s a Quaker concept, s o you do something about i t . And nobody has t o t e l l you what 's r i g h t ; you know yourself what 's r i g h t .

Morris : So you grew up with the expectat ion t h a t you would be doing th ings f o r other people i n some form i n whatever community you were i n ?

McLean : Yes [laughing] . When I was a very l i t t l e g i r l ( I don ' t know whether I remember t h i s o r whether my mother j u s t to ld me), we l ived i n London and we'd go f o r walks every day a l l dressed up i n the most incredible ironed, s tarched white l ace c lo thes - -

Morris : And h a t s .

McLean : Oh yes, lovely h a t s , I ' l l show you p ic tu res . We'd sometimes walk through slum a reas , and what I was going t o do &en I grew up was t o give a l l the l i t t l e chi ldren i n the slums a bath. [Laughter] A wash, t o my eyes, was obviously what they most needed.

Morris: I can bel ieve tha t .

London Years

Morris : How long did you l i v e i n London?

McLean: Unt i l about t en or twelve. We l ived ha l f i n London and ha l f here f o r a while. My f a t h e r was a mining engineer i n London, and he bought t h i s ranch i n 1913--that was when I was six--so then we s t a r t e d coming over here summers and gradually--well, i n 1914 when the War broke out , we were here . We gradually moved over here . My f a t h e r saw h i s chi ldren becoming English chi ldren , and he wanted them t o be American chi ldren . So--

Morris: What does a mining engineer do i n London?

McLean: That was where h i s o f f i c e had headquarters. I n f a c t , London was the mining engineering c a p i t a l of the world.

Morris: I know t h a t the re were a number of B r i t i s h i n t e r e s t s i n the e a r l y mining ventures i n the western United S t a t e s , but I d i d n ' t r e a l i z e they a c t u a l l y had t h e i r engineers i n London.

McLean: The English had a l l the c a p i t a l , but they got a g rea t deal of t h e i r t a l e n t from American engineers. A t t h a t time i n England i t wasn't q u i t e respectable t o be an engineer. You had t o be e i t h e r i n the Army or the minis t ry or p o l i t i c s t o be respectable i n England; you couldn' t be a merchant o r an engineer, d e f i n i t e l y .

There i s s t i l l a r e f l e c t i o n of t h a t . My e l d e s t son married an English g i r l , and she says t h a t when he r family introduces he r husband and people say: What is he?; she says : A mining engineer; and he r mother says: But h e ' s a graduate of Stanford University. [Laughter]

run So t h e r e ' s s t i l l a f e e l i n g tha t those a r e the people

t r a i n s and shovel coa l and t h a t s o r t of th ing . t h a t

Morris: But it was operat ion?

a l l r i g h t t o put up the money t o inves t i n a mining

McLean: Oh yes. That was f inance, which was respectable .

Morris: I see.

Morris : So, your family was a l l back i n t h i s country dur ing World War I , your immediate family?

McLean: Yes, we were, t he c h i l d r e n were, and mother was most of t he time. But you s e e , my unc le ' s and my f a t h e r ' s bus iness i n t e r e s t s were i n London. And my uncle had gone i n t o g e t t i n g s t randed Americans home and saving the Belgians from s t a r v a t i o n , and s o he had turned over t he bus iness t o my f a t h e r . My f a t h e r was busy t r y i n g t o salvage whatever he could from i t , because, you s e e , t h e i r mining i n t e r e s t s were a l l over t h e world, and most of them were expropriated by t h e coun t r i e s involved.

Morris : Was t h i s during World War I o r i n t h e years fol lowing?

McLe an : During World War I.

Morris : And s o the women came back h e r e wi th the ch i ld ren?

McL e an : Aunt Lou s tayed most ly i n London; my mother went back and f o r t h .

Morris: Were you a c t u a l l y then l i v i n g i n the same household wi th your cousins?

McLean: No; we were extremely c lose . Our nurses and governesses did not approve of my cous ins a t a l l , because they were very mischievous l i t t l e boys who were r a i s ed q u i t e permiss ive ly , and our governesses always thought they were a very bad inf luence on us. [Laughter]

Morris: Is it because they were l i t t l e boys, being p a r t i c u l a r l y - - ?

o r do you r e c a l l them a s

McLean: They were r a t h e r t e r r i b l e l i t t l e boys--we g i r l s were being r a i sed by English governesses , and our cousins were being r a i sed with t h e i r pa ren t s a l l over the world and i n America a g r e a t dea l of t he t ime. They were ju s t - -we l l , they were love ly l i t t l e boys but always doing th ings t h a t English governesses d i d n ' t approve o f . They'd encourage us t o climb over t he back wa l l and go up t o the corner and buy a bun and g e t in to- - [ laughing] you know, s i m i l a r t e r r i b l e t h ings .

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I1 EDUCATION AND MARRIAGE

Stanford and McGill Un ive r s i t i e s

Did you and your s i s t e r s a l l go t o Stanford?

Except my l i t t l e s i s t e r ; she got married.

And t h a t was the end of h e r formal educat ion?

Yes.

Did your acquaintance wi th your cousins continue through the

Stanford years?

Oh yes.

They were the re too?

My o lde r cousin, Herber t , was four years ahead of me so t h a t t h e r e

wasn't much s o c i a l contac t . However, my roommate was the g i r l he l a t e r marr ied, s o t h e r e was t h a t con tac t . But otherwise four yea r s , i n c o l l e g e , i s a d i f f e r e n t s o c i a l s e t .

Tha t ' s t r u e , but t h e s tudent populat ion wasn ' t a l l t h a t l a r g e . A few Hoovers would be no t i ceab le .

Oh, yes. But my o the r cousin, Al lan , who was p r a c t i c a l l y my age-- there was a g r e a t dea l of contac t w i th him. The con tac t was mostly family con tac t r a t h e r than s o c i a l a t school , although we'd f ind ourselves a t t h e same p a r t i e s and th ings .

You sa id "your roommate," d id you then l i v e in- -?

McLe an : I l i v e d i n Robley H a l l , I wasn ' t i n a "wild" t o be se l ec t ed by a s o r o r i t y .

s o r o r i t y . [Laughter]

I was too I n quotes.

Morris : You were "too wi ld ," young cousins ?

from growing up with these rambunctious

McL e an : No, and

I th ink they disapproved of me by t h a t time. I smoked, I a l s o would d r ink t h i s t e r r i b l e P roh ib i t ion g in .

Morris: That must have been q u i t e an experience.

McLe an : Proh ib i t ion g in was a d read fu l t a s t e e x p e r i e n c e ; > I s t i l l c a n ' t en j oy g in . [Laughing]

Morris : What d id you study a t Stanford?

McLean : Psychology was my major, u n t i l we went t o McGill Universi ty. There I cou ldn ' t ge t q u i t e t h e courses t o graduate i n my major, s o I graduated i n p o l i t i c a l sc ience , which was, you know, a very c lose one.

Morris : You found r e l a t e d ?

the s tudy of psychology and p o l i t i c a l science c l o s e l y

McLean : Most of t he requirements were t h e same.

Morris : Now, t h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g .

McL e an : You d i d n ' t have t o have German f o r p o l i t i c a l sc ience , nor l ab work.

Morris : As an undergraduate.

McLean : Yes.

Morris : And was your husband a l s o i n p o l i t i c a l science?

McLean : Yes.

Morris : How did you happen t o g e t married i n your freshman year? you known him during h igh school?

Had

McLean : No, we won't of weeks and married.

go i n t o t h a t too much; I ' d only known him a couple we decided we wanted t o ge t married, s o we got

Morris : Well, t h a t ' s a very romantic s tory! [Laughter]

McLean : It was fun , and we d i d n ' t t e l l anybody u n t i l t h e end of q u a r t e r , because it was t e r r i b l y scandalous then t o be marr ied, a t t h a t p o i n t i n h i s t o r y .

t he

Morris : I was wondering. There were no t many o the r married s tuden t s?

McLean : No, t h e r e weren ' t any married s tuden t s . And he flunked out t h a t q u a r t e r , f o r t h e t h i r d time. He flunked out t h e f i r s t q u a r t e r he was a t S tanford , b u t he had had the h ighes t score on the Apti tude Tes t i n t he freshman c l a s s , s o they thought t h e r e must be a mistake and they l e t him back in . He flunked out aga in , and then he stayed i n u n t i l h e got marr ied, and he flunked out t h a t time. [Laughter] Which was supposed t o f i n i s h you a t S tanford , s o we went t o McGill and we got a l l A ' s , because t h e r e weren ' t t h e d i s t r a c t i o n s t h a t had been f lunking him out . And so they then l e t us back i n t o Stanford where we graduated.

Morris : T h a t ' s q u i t e a s t o r y . Why did you p ick McGill?

McLean: Oh, and

because he had r e l a t i v e s up t h e r e and h i s uncle was r e g i s t r a r , I t h i n k probably pul led a few s t r i n g s t o g e t us i n .

Morris : Did you f ind McGill, a s i d e from having not s o many f r i e n d s and acquaintances, d id you f ind academically t h a t it was d i f f e r e n t from Stanford?

McLean: Yes q u i t e . The whole theory was d i f f e r e n t , and your whole grade was on your f i n a l examination, and t h a t was a whole y e a r ' s work. A t Stanford it had been divided i n t o t h r e e q u a r t e r s , and your grade was accumulated. When we r e g i s t e r e d a t McGill t he dean s a i d : There ' s n o t much po in t of you r e g i s t e r i n g , because McGill i s f o r t y years ahead of any American u n i v e r s i t y , and you j u s t won't be ab l e t o do the work. Which of course i r r i t a t e d us a b i t .

Morris : I would t h i n k so.

McLean: So we j u s t worked ha rd , and we had wonderful t eache r s , and we had i n t e r e s t i n g courses . We could t ake what courses we wanted because we weren ' t t r y i n g t o graduate a t McGill. So we took what would f u l f i l l our Stanford requirements. And we j u s t worked hard and go t A ' s .

Morris : A t t h a t p o i n t , d id you have any thought t h a t you might l i k e yourse l f p r a c t i c e some of these p o l i t i c a l sc ience t h e o r i e s ?

t o

McLean: I knew I was going t o have t o g e t a job. But I don ' t t h i n k I thought of a p o l i t i c a l job. I was always very f e m i n i s t , because when I d id d iscover what t h e world thought of women, I was i n f u r i a t e d . I wrote a term paper c a l l e d "The Dominant Sex," proving t h a t women were by f a r t he supe r io r sex. [Laughter] It was a very s c h o l a r l y paper. It was my y e a r ' s paper i n sociology. And he had t o give me an A on i t , although he wrote a l l s o r t s of l i t t l e no tes d i sag ree ing v i o l e n t l y .

Morris : I was wondering how your professor f e l t about t h a t .

Which p ro fe s so r s p r a c t i c u l a r l y impressed you?

McLean: Stephen Leacock, who did not have any a n t i - f e m i n i s t ideas. He was very much l i k e my f a t h e r . He kept cheer ing me on. There was a competi t ion f o r t he h ighes t p o s i t i o n i n the class--and they always put l i s t s of where you were i n c l a s s r e l a t i o n s h i p s i n a l l your l i t t l e t e s t s a s you went through, and your papers . The competi t ion f o r the h ighes t one was myself and a man. And Stephen Leacock was always cheer ing f o r me. He was a d a r l i n g man.

Charles McLean and H i s Pa ren t s

Morris : How about your husband?

McLean: He d id very well . We d i d n ' t have the d i s t r a c t i o n s s o c i a l l i f e . And he got most ly A's and a few B's.

of Stanford

Morris : Did you and he debate t h i s ques t ion of r o l e ?

f emin i s t r o l e o r women's

McLean: No, he j u s t seemed t o accept what I j u s t took f o r granted he would.

Morris : Was he mother a l s o an ac t ive - - ?

McLean: His mother was wonderful. She was l i k e Zasu P i t t s . I don ' t know whether you 're t oo young t o remember the a c t r e s s Zasu P i t t s who was

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McLean:

Morris :

completely f l i b b e r t y - g i b b e t , never could remember anything, and got every th ing wrong always. Cha r l e s ' s mother once t o l d me t h a t h e r nickname a s a g i r l was S i l l y L i ly . [Laughter]

She was j u s t d a r l i n g , and t a l en t ed i n r e l a t i o n s h i p s with o the r people. She wouldn't be i n a r e s t a u r a n t f o r a meal without knowing t h a t t he cook had f i v e c h i l d r e n and h i s wife was ill. And when she went t h e r e a year l a t e r she 'd f ind out how h i s wi fe was and whether--

She'd remember a l l of t h a t . Tha t ' s a marvelous s k i l l .

It was j u s t a marvelous t a l e n t . Every time she kept on th inking she wasn ' t important because she cou ldn ' t do anything and cou ldn ' t remember anything, I j u s t kept t e l l i n g he r : I ' d give anything t o have t h a t t a l e n t ; anybody would.

She was very beloved by everyone.

Tha t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g , t h a t wi th t h i s kind of mother, M r . McLean was p e r f e c t l y comfortable with you and your family who had d i f f e r e n t kinds of female models.

Completely d i f f e r e n t .

But h i s f a t h e r was a gentleman. They were pure ly S c o t t i s h and I don ' t t h i n k t h a t S c o t t i s h c l ans had very much of an a n t i -woman f e e l i n g i n them. I mean, i f t h e r e was an a v a i l a b l e man, he was head of t h e c l an , but i f t h e r e wasn't an a v a i l a b l e man, a woman would be.

There were occas iona l ly women then who were t h e head of t he c l a n ?

Yes, t h e r e were.

So i t was s e n i o r i t y and ances t ry r a t h e r than male o r female--?

Yes, with preference being given t o t h e man and t h e c o a t of arms would go down through the e l d e s t son. It was very f euda l and q u i t e separated sex funct ions--even t h e hunt ing func t ion and the food-preparat ion func t ion . S c o t t i s h h i s t o r y i s f u l l of wonderful women. So, I don ' t t h i n k they were anti-woman; i t was j u s t economically and s o c i o l o g i c a l l y a d i f f e r e n t func t ion f o r men and women i n t he type of s o c i e t y they had.

How about g e t t i n g the vote f o r women i n t h i s country? Is t h i s something t h a t anybody i n your family had p a r t i c i p a t e d i n ?

McLean: No, and my mother disapproved of i t f o r some reason. I d o n ' t know. She very much disapproved of Mrs. Pankhurst , bu t then t h a t was because Mrs. Pankhurst was not behaving l i k e a lady. And my mother was very much of a lady i n i t s good sense. I mean, a lady is the same a s a gentleman. She cons iders o the r people and behaves a s a lady and a good person should.

Morris : And t h e r e i s a f i t t i n g kind of behavior f o r d i f f e r e n t occasions?

McLean: Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t . And of course--appearances. I remember he r t e l l i n g me t h a t a lady puts on h e r gloves before she leaves the house. [Laughing]

Morris : Yes, t h a t ' s the type of n i c e d e t a i l t h a t one used t o l i v e wi th .

Jobs and Babies and the Great Depression

Morris: You sa id t h a t when you were g e t t i n g ready t o graduate you knew t h a t you were going t o have t o g e t a job. What did you and

M r . McLean--how did you work t h a t ou t?

McLean: He was s t i l l i n school when I graduated. I don ' t remember what my lead was. Oh yes , it was through the employment s e r v i c e a t Stanford. They s e n t me up t o t h e Emporium and I got a job the re a s s e c r e t a r y i n t h e f a sh ion and comparison o f f i c e . The job of t he o f f i c e was coord ina t ing t h e va r ious departments t o be su re t h a t people had shoes t h a t would match bags t h a t would match h a t s , and t h e comparison p a r t was see ing t h a t t he p r i c e s were comparable t o t h e o t h e r s t o r e s ' . And t h e r e were, oh, about f i f t e e n people working i n the department. I was s e c r e t a r y t o t h e manager. And when she was r e t i r e d , I became manager b r i e f l y , and then they brought a very high-powered fash ion exper t from P a r i s who was completely impossible .

Morris : Male o r female?

McLean: She was female. So then I asked me t o Capwell ' s , which was t h e i r manager of t h e i r department over

t he management i f s t o r e i n Oakland, t he re .

they 'd t r a n s f e r and I was

Morris: Did you f e e l a t a l l t h a t t h a t s tud ied p o l i t i c a l sc ience?

was n o t app ropr i a t e f o r having

McLean: No, because i t was p r e t t y w e l l p a i d , and I was h e l p i n g suppor t us and n o t a f t e r a c a r e e r p a r t i c u l a r l y . I was over-employed. That i s , I was much t o o young and inexper ienced f o r t h e job. I had t o work f o u r t e e n h o u r s a day f o r a job t h a t should have been done i n e i g h t hours . Wel l , I was t e l l i n g buyers of f i f t y y e a r s of age what t h e y should buy, what t h e y should p r i c e t h e i r t h i n g s . And I had never known a n y t h i n g about t h e r e t a i l t r a d e .

Morr i s : Do you mean t h a t somebody o l d e r and more exper ienced would have been a b l e t o do t h e job i n e i g h t h o u r s ?

McLean: Sure , yes . You know, i f I ' d worked my way up, i t would have been a b r e e z e . But i t was t o o h a r d , s o I g o t t e r r i b l y ill.

M o r r i s : I should t h i n k so . The r e t a i l b u s i n e s s can be exhaus t ing .

McLean: And my husband gradua ted and was working t h e t h e Department A g r i c u l t u r e .

of

Morr i s : I n San F r a n c i s c o ?

McLean : I n Sacramento, and h e was a l l over t h e s t a t e . He was i n s p e c t i n g - -t h e y were wor r ied about Medi te r ranean f r u i t f l y , and h e was i n s p e c t i n g f o r t h a t . Now, what t h a t had t o do w i t h p o l i t i c a l sc ience- -oh y e s , I know: h e g o t a job a s a s s i s t a n t t o t h e s e c r e t a r y of t h e s e n a t e . And i t was when Judge Hardy was b e i n g impeached (which you wouldn 't remember) because of h i s connec t ion w i t h Aimee Semple MacPherson. So h e worked i n t h e s e n a t e a l l through t h a t t r i a l , which was v e r y e x c i t i n g . Then through t h e f r i e n d s h e made, t h i s job came up i n t h e Department of A g r i c u l t u r e , s o h e took t h a t . I mean, n e i t h e r of us were l o o k i n g much f o r a c a r e e r ; we were l o o k i n g f o r a way t o s u p p o r t o u r s e l v e s .

Morr i s : To s u p p o r t y o u r s e l v e s , o r t o s u p p o r t each o t h e r a s a u n i t ?

McLean : To s u p p o r t us b o t h , b u t we were a p a r t most of t h e t ime because our jobs t o o k us a p a r t . But t h e n when I g o t v e r y ill and was h o s p i t a l i z e d - - i t was a s i n u s i n f e c t i o n , which I d i d n ' t r e a l i z e could be s o bad. It c a n - - t h e r e were some peop le i n t h e ward t h a t were j u s t c r i p p l e d w i t h i t; i t had gone i n t o t h e i r muscles and t h i n g s , which amazed me.

But anyway, t h e n my o l d e r s i s t e r , who was l i v i n g i n Los Angeles, s a i d : Come down and l i v e w i t h us f o r a w h i l e u n t i l you g e t w e l l .

McLean : So we went down t h e r e , and my husband could work from t h e r e j u s t as w e l l as from up h e r e . Then we s e t t l e d down t h e r e . And I g o t invo lved i n J u n i o r League, because my s i s t e r was r i c h and v e r y socie ty-minded.

M o r r i s : T h i s i s your o l d e r s i s t e r ?

McLean : Yes. Also , o u r ambi t ion was t o have some made enough money t o have our f i r s t baby.

c h i l d r e n . And s o we

Oh, I ' d t a k e n a c o u r s e i n s t a t i s t i c s i n t h a t p o l i t i c a l s c i e n c e t h i n g . So, when I went s o u t h , I g o t v a r i o u s jobs do ing s t a t i s t i c a l s u r v e y s .

M o r r i s : On a s o r t of a s p o t b a s i s ?

McLean: Yes. I g o t one, f o r i n s t a n c e - - t h e y were making a s a l a r y su rvey of t h e Los Angeles c i t y schoo ls . I worked as a s s i s t a n t t o t h e man who was runn ing tha t - -and l e a r n e d how t o r u n them. Then I ' d made surveys on my own. One, d i f f e r e n t aud ience r e a c t i o n s on t h e Pasadena Playhouse. Oh, j u s t a l o t of l i t t l e ones . So we cou ld e a s i l y have b a b i e s i n between.

Morr i s : And s o r t of r u n a s u r v e y from your own home, as i t were?

McLean: And t h e n t a k e t ime o u t and have a baby.

M o r r i s : Did you have some household h e l p t o l end a hand?

McL e an : T h i s was d u r i n g t h e Depress ion . I took i n , s o r t o f , a coup le of young women who had no home and n o t h i n g t o e a t , and t h e y he lped me. Then l a t e r I g o t s o I cou ld pay them a l i t t l e b i t . But a t t h a t t ime , my f a t h e r - i n - l a w ' s bank f a i l e d , and s o we were a l s o h e l p i n g them. We were working kind of h a r d .

But anyway, I g o t i n t h e J u n i o r League. T h e i r emphasis i s on p u b l i c s e r v i c e and my p u b l i c s e r v i c e f o r them was t o do a s u r v e y of what t h e a g e n c i e s i n Pasadena needed i n t h e way of v o l u n t e e r s . The J u n i o r League had always been, you know, v o l u n t e e r s , b u t t h e r e was more of a need t h a n t h a t . So we d i d t h e su rvey o f a l l t h e agencies--What could you use? And what k ind of t r a i n i n g should t h e y have?

McLe an : Then when the survey was done, t h e r e was an obvious need, so Jun io r League e s t ab l i shed a volunteer bureau, and they put me i n charge of t h a t , which was a paid job. Because they r e a l i z e d t h a t , although I was i n the Junior League, I wasn ' t Jun io r League economically [ laughing] .

Morris : There must have been q u i t e a s t a t e during t h e Depression.

number of women who were i n t h a t

McLean: Yes, t h e r e were.

Morris : Was t h a t t he o r i g i n of the Volunteer Bureau a s an organiza t ion?

McLe an : I n Pasadena, yes.

Then, I was doing another job a t t he same time. I was working a s a s e c r e t a r y f o r a M r . Ahrensburg, who was q u i t e a famous a r t c o l l e c t o r . When I f i r s t went t o work f o r him, he asked me why I wanted t o work. I sa id : Well, I want t o accumulate enough money t o have another baby. He was amused.

He was w r i t i n g a book t o prove t h a t Bacon wrote Shakespeare.

Morris : Oh, marvelous.

McLean : I was t ak ing notes and t r ansc r ib ing them. But he was too e r u d i t e f o r me. He would make puns i n various fo re ign languages, which were very hard t o take i n shorthand. I always had d i f f i c u l t y reading my shorthand anyway.

So, f i n a l l y , by mutual consent I gave up t h a t job. It was too much f o r me; I wasn' t t h a t good a s e c r e t a r y . But, we had enough money t o have another baby, so we had our second c h i l d , ( a l l t h r e e were caesareans) which was four years from the f i r s t one. The second one has always been a demon! [Laughter] The f i r s t one, I thought: Oh, ch i ld ren a r e a cinch. You j u s t br ing them up r i g h t and they ' r e l i t t l e angels .

Morris : Was t h i s being a second c h i l d ?

McLean: No, he was j u s t a d i f f e r e n t kind of c h i l d .

The f i r s t boy, when he was i n about the fou r th grade, I asked the p e d i a t r i c i a n : I th ink t h e r e ' s something wrong with Alex; he never does anything t h a t he knows i s wrong. He never

McLean: does anything bad, and l i t t l e boys a r e supposed to .

But t h e p e d i a t r i c i a n t o l d me he was / a l l r i g h t .

Well, t h e second one cou ldn ' t wai t u n t i l I got ou t of s i g h t t o do what he wanted t o [ laughing] .

Morris : And he never thought t h a t anything he d id was wrong, I imagine.

McLean: No., he was good a t r a t i o n a l i z i n g . He was t h e s o r t of l i t t l e boy t h a t i f he went p a s t a raw of f lower p o t s , he 'd have t o poke them a l l over. J u s t a publ ic menace.

I11 LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, 1936-1943

S t a t e C i v i l S e r v i c e Study and A c t i o n

McLean: Then l e t ' s s e e , th rough t h e J u n i o r League I g o t connected w i t h t h e League of Women V o t e r s , which was my downfa l l .

Morr i s : How d i d you g e t from one t o t h e o t h e r ?

McLean: I t h i n k t h e y had i n t e r l o c k i n g d i r e c t o r a t e s , and t h e y needed a survey. I ' v e f o r g o t t e n what t h a t su rvey was a l l abou t .

Morr i s : I should have asked t h i s b e f o r e , bu t i n 1928 had you he lped on your u n c l e ' s p r e s i d e n t i a l campaign a t a l l ?

McLean: Nothing much t h a t f a r back. I always worked on campaigns because I never q u i t e approved o f t h e way anybody was do ing p r e c i n c t work. So I always o rgan ized as many p r e c i n c t s as I had t ime and a b i l i t y t o do.

Morr i s : J u s t f o r your u n c l e , o r any t ime t h e r e was an e l e c t i o n ?

McLean: F o r any c o n s e r v a t i v e c a n d i d a t e [ l a u g h i n g ] . M o r r i s : When d i d you g e t i n t e r e s t e d i n t h a t ? O r when d i d you d o your

f i r s t p r e c i n c t o r g a n i z a t i o n ?

McLean: I d o n ' t remember.

M o r r i s : Before you went t o Pasadena?

McLean: I d o n ' t t h i n k s o , I t h i n k I was have been i n Pasadena. I joined

b

t o o busy and t o o ill. It must t h e Young Republ ican Women and

McLean: probably d id it f i r s t through them. Then of course , my p o l i t i c a l t r a i n i n g i n t h e League of Women Voters.

I got a l l

Morris : Why do you say t h e League of Women Voters was your downfall?

McLean : Oh, because then they made me s t a t e p re s iden t .

Morris : You have t o go some before you g e t t o be s t a t e p re s iden t .

McLean: we'll, not very much. I was s t a t e p re s iden t i n ' 4 2 - - l e t ' s go back and th ink of t he years . I probably joined t h e Jun io r League i n about '32. And then the Depression years I was too busy t o do an awful l o t ou t s ide Jun io r League, so probably i t was about '36 o r '37 t h a t I joined the League of Women Voters . I ' m j u s t s o r t of guessing a t t hese d a t e s .

Morris : Okay. I happen t o have a copy of the League's Continuing R e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s , w r i t t e n i n 1958, which says t h a t i n t h e l a t e t h i r t i e s and e a r l y f o r t i e s , the League was involved i n s e v e r a l very i n t e r e s t i n g t h i n g s . One was t h e i r involvement i n he lp ing s e t up t h e s t a t e c i v i l s e rv i ce . Was t h a t one of your--?

McLean: Yes, t h a t was my main i n t e r e s t i n t h e League, c i v i l s e r v i c e . I made my f i r s t s t u d i e s i n Pasadena c i v i l s e r v i c e and then on t h e s t a t e c i v i l s e r v i c e . I at tended a l l t h e s t a t e c i v i l s e r v i c e board meetings. There was a woman--I wasn ' t chairman of t h a t - -who r e a l l y e s t a b l i s h e d t h e c i v i l s e rv i ce .

Morris: Was t h a t M r s . Nachtr ieb?

McLean: Yes, t h a t 's r i g h t , Kate Nachtr ieb. I worked wi th h e r . I did the s tudy k i t s f o r i t . She was pub l i c r e l a t i o n s chairman and I d id the w r i t i n g , t h e s tudy o u t l i n e s , and t h a t s o r t of t h ing .

Morris : For t h e l o c a l Leagues?

McL e an : Well, s t a r t i n g wi th t h e l o c a l Leagues and then s t a t e .

And then i n 194--

Morris : Let me ask you another ques t ion about t h i s : i n every re ference I have heard , it sounds a s i f t he League r e a l l y had a major in f luence on t h e eventua l w r i t i n g of the s t a t e l e g i s l a t i o n and t h e s e t t i n g up of t h e s t a t e Personnel Board.

McLean: We did.

Morris: How did the League e s t a b l i s h t h a t kind of c r e d i b i l i t y i n Sacramento?

McLean: Well, Mrs. L e t ' s see , l i k e t h a t ?

Nachtrieb was a good lawyer and very knowledgeable. who was the d i r e c t o r then?--Kroeger, or something

He depended on her .

Morris: Louis J. Kroeger?

McLean: Yes. He depended on her because of her a b i l i t i e s . The C i v i l Service Commission depended on the League t o ge t publ ic support f o r what they were doing. She was a lawyer and she was i n on wr i t ing the law.

Also, we were a very g rea t influence i n the Idaho c i v i l serv ice law. There was not a League i n Idaho a t the time, but my f a t h e r - in-law was comptroller of r e l i e f over the re , and he knew what we'd done he re , so he asked f o r me t o advise them. And so the Idaho one 'was based on Ca l i fo rn ia law.

Morris: Do I hear r i g h t t h a t one c i v i l serv ice system was

of the motivations f o r revis ing the the welfare system as i t was s e t up?

McLean: It was j u s t the whole patronage system. Of course, by t h a t time I was l i v i d about the welfare system. That was so p o l i t i c a l t h a t i f you were a good Democrat, you wouldn't be a t tacking it and i f you were a good Republican, you would. And i n the meantime, I had worked - -now t h i s was an i n t e r e s t i n g thing--

ape turned over. Begin Tape I , s ide 21

Personal Observation of Relief Agencies

McLean: (Some of these things I haven' t thought of fo r years .)

But anyway, through s e t t i n g up the Volunteer Bureau--at t h i s same time I was having my second baby, and I turned the Volunteer Bureau over t o someone e l s e while I had a baby. And then the Volunteer Bureau was running very n ice ly under t h i s f r i e n d , Mar ie t ta Harriman, so , when I was looking around f o r something t o do, the placement bureau i n Pasadena, which was the employment bureau--

Morris: This was a public agency?

McLean:

Morris:

McLean:

Morris :

McLe an :

Morris :

McLean:

Morris :

McLe an :

Yes, i t s t a r t e d out p r i v a t e and then became pub l i c i n t h i s d i s a s t e r e r a , t h i s Depression. They were being abso lu t e ly inundated with Depression unemployment. So they asked me i f I would run, a s a vo lun tee r , a p r o j e c t f o r t h e unemployed women ( t h e unemployed women who had been s e c r e t a r i e s , accountants , and s o on) , a s t a t i s t i c a l p r o j e c t examining the Depression. It was one of t hese made jobs, made p ro j ec t s - -

I n o the r words, i t was a way t o use some of t hese women, g ive them some employment.

Yes, and perhaps g e t something use fu l out of it.

So, I had about twenty women, and we s e t up t h e s t a t i s t i c a l p r o j e c t . They were p e r f e c t l y wonderful women. They had been washing flower pots f o r the p r o j e c t they 'd been put on, t o ea rn some money, and they were so glad t o be doing something t h a t took i n t e l l i g e n c e . And so , we s e t up a s t a t i s t i c a l method and ques t ion- n a i r e s . They weren ' t any computers then. We put every th ing on ca rds and hand -sor ted them.

Oh my!

But it was fun; computers wouldn't be nea r ly a s fun.

I th ink surveys a r e f a s c i n a t i n g .

Yes. So we worked with these women. The t roub le was t h a t r e l i e f was so p o l i t i c a l . I guess it was about a year we worked on t h i s p r o j e c t and did a n i c e r e p o r t which I don ' t know whether anybody read o r whether i t was of any use t o anyone, and I don ' t t h ink I have a copy because a l l my th ings burned up. And then they suddenly sa id we were s t a r t i n g on another p r o j e c t and they abol ished t h i s and did something e l s e . The women were very upset . I had taught t h e ones t h a t wanted t o l e a r n and were capable; I gave c l a s s e s a t n igh t i n s t a t i s t i c a l methods. About f i v e of them went out a s capable s t a t i s t i c a l c l e r k s , and l a t e r on got some good jobs. So, we accomplished something.

But anyway, then they wanted me t o go over i n t o t h e SERA, which was the name of t he p o l i t i c a l th ing- -

The S t a t e Emergency Rel ie f Agency.

- - i n charge of a s t a t i s t i c a l survey over t h e r e . That would be a

McL e an : paid job, which was f i n e because I needed i t ; although being a volunteer i n the system was very good, because i t was incredibly messed up and incredibly v ic ious i n a l o t of ways.

Morris : How do you th ink i t was so messed up?

McL ean : Well, au thor i ty goes t o a l o t of people ' s heads, and power goes t o a l o t of people ' s heads. They would come over, even demanding a kickback from the paychecks--and s i t on my desk and say they'd ge t my job i f I wouldn't cooperate. And I ' d say: I ' m sor ry , you can have my job any time you want. But I ' m not about t o give you access t o these women., There would be things l i k e tha t .

So then I went over t o SERA a s a paid person. I th ink the experience only las ted th ree months, but i t seemed l i k e three years , because the re was a g rea t dea l of in - f igh t ing and a g rea t deal of [pauses] t r y i n g t o put people down, climbing up over people. The work i t s e l f was fa sc ina t ing : i t was inves t iga t ing the people on r e l i e f . It was spot-checking them. I remember we had one, somebody who had f i f t e e n dependents t h a t turned out t o be greyhound dogs.

Morris : My goodness! [Laughter]

McLean: That was a nerve-wracking experience, because of s o much r e a l unp leasan tness - - l i t t l e things. You'd never know whether you'd have your desk when you went i n the morning; somebody e l s e l iked t h a t place b e t t e r s o they'd put you i n a dark corner. It was a l l t h a t s o r t of th ing .

Morris : It sounds as i f the s t a f f might have included a good number of people who had never worked i n s t a t e government before?

McLean: They were p o l i t i c a l appointees j u s t e l ec t ion would t h a t be--?

before the e l ec t ion . Which

Morris : Thi r ty -e igh t , when Culbert Olson was e lec ted?

McLean: It would be Roosevelt 's f i r s t r ee lec t ion , I think.

Morris :

McLean : Thir ty-s ix probably. The order went ou t , the w r i t t e n order: Get a s many people on r e l i e f before e l ec t ion as you can. Don't bother with the inves t iga t ing .

Morris :

McLean:

Morris :

McLe an :

Morris :

McLean:

Morris :

McLean:

Morris :

McLean:

This came from Washington?

It came from Washington. Well, everybody went out t o g e t people on r e l i e f - - f o r v o t e s , obviously.

Did t h i s c a r r y over and c o n t r i b u t e t o Olson being e l ec t ed a s a Democratic governor i n '38?

I don ' t know, because I was out of i t by then. long a s I poss ib ly could. I was f i r e d ; I d i d n ' t a long wi th being a p e r f e c t l y ghas t ly experience, f a s c i n a t i n g [ laughing] . I b e t i t was.

I stood it a s r e s i g n , because i t was s o

And a l l the bosses would be p o l i t i c a l appointees . F i n a l l y somebody was appointed t o the job t h a t my boss had. She was f i r e d and everybody under h e r was f i r e d , and he brought i n h i s own crew, s o t h a t was the end of t h a t job. And I was very r e l i eved . I d o n ' t t h ink I would have res igned , because, a s I s a i d , the f a s c i n a t i o n was j u s t too much.

Was your husband wi th the Department of Agr icu l ture during those yea r s?

Yes.

Did he have any con tac t wi th f e d e r a l Farm Secur i ty Administrat ion t h a t r an camps fo r - - ?

No, he was wi th the Department of Agr icu l ture i n t h e i r inspec t ion se rv i ces . A t t h i s p o i n t , they were checking on petroleum products . And h i s job was t o check s e r v i c e s t a t i o n s t o s e e t h a t they were s e l l i n g what they were supposed t o be s e l l i n g , making up cases and t ak ing them t o cou r t when they weren ' t . He was j u s t darned lucky t o have a job and a c i v i l s e r v i c e job.

Pasadena: t he C i t y Manager and the P o l i c e Department

Morris: Were you ca r ry ing a League job along wi th t h i s SERA job?

McLean: Yes, I don ' t t h ink I was p re s iden t - - the re was a f a s c i n a t i n g th ing t h e League was doing i n Pasadena, but my da t e s a r e a l i t t l e mixed up. Our house burned up i n 1955 wi th a l l my records and d i a r i e s .

Morris : T h a t ' s the house your f a t h e r b u i l t he re i n Canyon Del Oso?

McLean: Yes.

Morris: What a d i s a s t e r !

McLean: Well , i t was. So I c a n ' t check e a s i l y t hese days. But Pasadena had j u s t gone i n t o a c i t y manager form of government, wi th encouragement from t h e League. We were doing a Know Your Town s tudy , and I and another g a l were co-chairmen of i t - - S a l l y Stone, who was a b a l l e t dancer . And S a l l y got a phone c a l l from a young man saying: Would you meet me somewhere on t h e corner of such and such. The League ought t o know about something.

So she went down and met him on the corner of such and He was a young p o l i c e o f f i c e r . And he s a i d ? You're making s tudy of our town. I f you knew the r i g h t ques t ions t o a sk , could blow i t wide open. The p o l i c e department i s framing homosexuals, and would you l i k e t o know about i t ?

such. a you

And S a l l y s a i d : Well, I don ' t know i f we do.

Morris : That must have been a shocking t h i n g i n t h e 1930s.

McLean: What we were shocked a t , I t h i n k , was not t he homosexual b i t bu t t he f a c t t h a t the p o l i c e department was doing i t . He sa id : I ' l l phone you from time t o time and t e l l you times and p l aces . You j u s t ask the r i g h t ques t ions and be a t the r i g h t p l aces i f you want t o .

S a l l y came over t o my house, and I s a i d : A l l r i g h t , l e t ' s go through wi th i t . So we c o l l e c t e d a bunch of evidence. Now, l e t ' s s ee (I 'm t r y i n g t o remember t h i s ) , we d i d n ' t want t o concen t r a t e on t h e homosexual bas i s . As a mat te r of f a c t , the newspaper got hold of t h a t and made Pasadena a byword. We wanted

McLean: t o g e t hold of the f a c t t h a t t h e p o l i c e department was being very badly run, t h a t the men weren ' t on the bea t s they were supposed t o be on, t h a t t h e promotions weren ' t being done t h e way they were supposed t o be done. This young man, whose name--no, I guess I b e t t e r no t g ive h i s name, because he was young and he might s t i l l be ac t ive . And they never did d iscover he had anything t o do wi th it--

But i n our Know Your Town, we concentrated on the p o l i c e department. The p o l i c e ch i e f was very e l d e r l y and obviously d i d n ' t know what was going on; he was s e n i l e . So we'd a sk these ques t ions and he wouldn't know the answers, and we'd ask the people down i n t h e department. People i n t h e department began t o ca t ch on t h a t our ques t ions were lge t t i ng p r e t t y pene t r a t ing , and so I got some anonymous phone c a l l s , some of t h e m ' t e l l i n g me t o l a y o f f , and some of them saying: Be t e r r i b l y c a r e f u l , because y o u ' l l be framed. So don ' t ever do anything wi thout a wi tness around. Don't t a l k t o anybody wi thout somebody e l s e around.

Morris : Was t h a t a t h r e a t o r was t h a t a he lpfu l - -?

McLean: I t h i n k t h a t was h e l p f u l . And s o , we were very , very c a r e f u l , and we got every th ing we wanted; I mean, we weren ' t s e t t i n g up a cour t case o r anything, j u s t information.

We kept on t r y i n g t o g e t i n t o s ee the c i t y manager, and he woul.dnlt even t a l k t o us , and i f we cornered him, he 'd be extremely gruf f and uncooperative. S a l l y s a i d , w e l l , she knew he had u l ce r s . Maybe it was h i s u l c e r s o r maybe he d i d n ' t l i k e t h e League. So anyway, we made t h i s l i s t of ques t ions- - th ings t h a t had happened--like men who had been d r ink ing when they were supposed t o be on duty and c a l l s t h a t hadn ' t been answered and a whole l o t of s i m i l a r t h ings . And f i n a l l y got an appointment wi th the c i t y manager and t h e ch ief of po l ice- -

Morris : Together?

McLean: Together. We were l e t i n and we ta lked t o them about t h i s . The ch ie f of p o l i c e s a i d , of course , t h i s was a l l f a b r i c a t i o n and t h e r e wasn ' t anything t o it. And t h e c i t y manager s a i d , w e l l , he 'd look i n t o it. Then, f i r s t t h ing we knew, t h e p o l i c e ch i e f had res igned , and the re was going t o be another one. So then we pushed a s hard a s we could--we wanted it t o be a c i v i l s e r v i c e job ( i t h a d n ' t been). The c i t y manager t o l d t h e newspapers t h a t i n view of t he pub l i c pressure i t was going t o have t o be c i v i l

McLean: s e r v i c e , and s o on. And th ings were f i n e . And then--the c i t y manager c a l l e d me i n , me and S a l l y , a f t e r i t was a l l over , and s a i d : I want you t o know t h a t I suggested t o young so-and-so t h a t he g e t i n touch with you. [Laughing]

Morris : I ' l l be darned. of avoiding you?

Then why had he gone through wi th the rigamarole

McLean: I cou ldn ' t do anything, he s a i d . He sa id : The re ' s t h ings you d o n ' t know about , and i t wouldn't do any good i f you d i d know about them. My hands were t i e d and I needed the pub l i c pressure t o make the changes.

Morris: So sometimes group?

a pub l i c o f f i c i a l r e a l l y needs h e l p from a community

McLean: Yes. This whole reformation was r e a l l y i n s t i g a t e d by t h e c i t y manager [ laughing] and we thought we were f i g h t i n g him s o hard the whole time!

Morris : Why had he avoided meeting wi th you while it was going on?

McLean: I th ink he d i d n ' t want anybody t o even t h i n k t h a t he might have encouraged us. So it was j u s t f i n a l l y when we were ready t o spread out every th ing and he could take it t o whoever i t was was ty ing h i s hands and say: Now look, we c a n ' t go on any longer ; we 've g o t t a do t h i s .

Morris : Tha t ' s a very f a s c i n a t i n g t a l e . League's p o s i t i o n i n favor of a

It kind of under l ines t he c i v i l s e r v i c e and mer i t r e c r u i t i n g .

[Lunch break]

On Being S t a t e P re s iden t ( In te rv iew 2 : a f te rnoon, 10 May 1976)

Morris : Did the Pasadena Know Your Town s tudy lead you t o being inv i t ed onto t h e s t a t e board?

McLean: I don ' t t h ink t h a t had much t o do wi th i t . I went on t o t he s t a t e board, I th ink , a s t h e i r government personnel committee chairman o r whatever i t was--I f o r g e t . And then i n about I guess 1940, they

McLean: e l ec t ed me s t a t e p re s iden t . That , of course , i s a d read fu l , d r ead fu l job. Why i n t h e world I ever took it--I had a new baby a t t h a t p o i n t , t h e t h i r d one, and not enough money and had a l o t of t r a v e l i n g c o s t s a t my own expense. It was wartime, and I t r ave l ed t h e cheapest poss ib l e way, which was t h e way a l l t he servicemen's wives and c h i l d r e n were t r a v e l i n g - - I had a g r e a t b ig heavy s u i t c a s e f u l l of books, and a baby, because I was nurs ing the baby and had t o take him along with me.

Morris : To s t a t e board meetings?

McLean : To s t a t e board meetings and mostly t o Sacramento because, of course , we were very a c t i v e i n the l e g i s l a t u r e . But our main i n t e r e s t was i n t he l e g i s l a t u r e - - c h i l d ca re c e n t e r s , and some p r o t e c t i o n f o r newsboys--

Morris : Who did you have on your board?

McLean: Llewellyn McMahon, who was a f a n t a s t i c woman (she ' s now dead) - -she h a s been w r i t t e n up seve ra l t imes. She was S t a t e Chamber of Commerce i n charge of t h e i r workmen's compensation l e g a l advice department. And of course, Kate Nachtr ieb, Mary Scarborough, Vera Schul tz and o t h e r s - - I f o r g e t now.

I

Morris: Was Ruth Chance on your board?

McLean: Oh, Ruth Chance, yes , she was i n Pasadena.

Morris : Had you and she worked on t h a t Know Your Town th ing toge ther?

McLean: No. She was j u s t coming i n t o i t then. She was--well, I c a n ' t t a l k about Ruth. Because she was one of t hese people t h a t can put a j igsaw puzzle toge ther beaut i ful ly--and then never s e e t h e p i c t u r e . You know, i t ' s a l l t h e r e and she never f i g u r e s out what i t ' s a l l about.

But she was on t h e board, and she was an e x c e l l e n t worker. She'd do anything you t o l d h e r t o and do it wel l .

And H a r r i e t E l i e l . Paul E l i e l or--?

You know anything about H a r r i e t E l i e l ,

Morris : I ' v e never met M r . E l i e l . I ' v e met H a r r i e t occas iona l ly in- -

McL ean : I was wondering i f s h e ' s s t i l l around.

Morris : She's l i v i n g i n Pa lo Alto now.

McLean: She never approved of me.

Morris : She d i d n ' t . Why n o t ?

McL e an : Because I was s o i n n a t e l y and unreformably conserva t ive .

Morris : The League used t o have a t r a d i t i o n t h a t t he s t a t e presidency a l t e r n a t e d between the no r th and the south. Did they a l s o a l t e r n a t e between Democrats and Republicans?

McLe an : No, we were supposed t o have completely ignored t h a t f a c t , whether you were Democrat o r Republican. And I th ink a l o t of people d i d n ' t l i k e me because I d i d n ' t ignore i t; I f e l t t h e League should be balanced. So I d id t r y and draw people i n because of t h e i r philosophy. I know t h a t they don ' t t r y and do t h a t now a t a l l . And it was frowned on then; you'd r i s e much above t h a t s o r t of t h ing . But it d i d n ' t seem t o me t h a t you'd be ab l e t o come out w i th a well-b'alanced program i f you d i d n ' t have a s well-balanced a membership a s poss ib l e .

Morris : Did t h a t mean t h a t you d id people f o r t h e board?

some of your own r e c r u i t i n g f o r

McLean : Yes. I d i d n ' t pay very much a t t e n t i o n t o what t h e i r r e g i s t r a t i o n was. I wanted a balance a s t o whether they thought adventurously o r thought cau t ious ly . Because I th ink you need both kinds of people i n every th ing . I f you j u s t g e t people who th